Transcript
Speaker: Hi, it's Dan here for Dusty This Radio and this is the podcast Liner Notes, revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. And today I'm very honored to have as my special guest bassist extraordinaire, Jeff Jones, goes by Jonesy, who has been an icon in the Canadian music industry since the late sixties and is perhaps best known for his time with Ocean, Red Rider and the Carpet Frogs. I look forward to hearing about his journey. So thanks for joining me today, Jonesy. How are you? Hey, good. Good. Thanks, Dan. I'm glad to be here with you. Well, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. We had a few logistical issues, but you were very gracious in working through those. So I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, thank you. Two -way street. Well, you know, these technical things get in the way, but we just want to talk about music and, and how it all started. And I, and I see on your bio here that you were, you were born in Chicago and you came up to Canada.
Speaker: And, uh, your, your dad, I guess was a jazz pianist. And so you just grew up in the music world. Is that, was, was that just something that just automatically happened? My, my dad, uh, when we were in Chicago, when I was a kid, um, yeah, he was on, he was on some R and B recordings, like, uh, Mary Wells, my guy, and nice and a couple of Curtis Mayfield, uh, songs, uh, before he was in the Impressions. ah But he never talked about that stuff. Those were sessions that he went to do in the day. And and then later um he said, oh, I think I was on that song. And we were like, are you kidding? like And he was like, well, i didn't I didn't want to really make a thing of it because um I was embarrassed around my friends because it wasn't jazz.
Speaker: Right. Interesting. right yeah you know yeah yeah they Some of them were pretty stuffy about jazz. and even you know Oscar Peterson um was a visitor to our home when I was a kid. wow and ah and um But he wasn't stuffy, but oh my goodness vi all the the piano players that we knew in the the area, Errol Garner, ah being one of the top ones, they would always say, you know, I'm practicing, i'm I'm doing good, but none of us are ever going to be Oscar. Right. Well, yeah. I've seen some videos of Oscar. He was otherworldly, I guess is the one way to put it. Yeah. Yeah. I had the good fortune of having people like him pop by for dinner and his fabulous basis, Ray Brown and stuff. When I was a kid,
Speaker: And I went to see Count Basie and stuff, Sound of Music before it was a movie. ah It was an amazing upbringing. And then at 66 the year, 1966, not 1865. My dad got a ah gig here in Toronto and he came up and an agent told him that he could work regularly if he chose and they could do the immigration and ah
Speaker: my mom came and took one look and brought my 12 year old self up to Toronto in 1966. Well, it's interesting because a lot of musicians came up from the States and and black musicians as well. And I always wondered how that played in because there was no like, like the racial tensions and stuff. We didn't really have a lot of that in Canada. I mean, I, I have friends that are everything and every, it was just never an issue for me. And now you were in the Northern States, so you weren't in the South. that was a big That was a big part of my parents' a decision to leave. it It was not good in Chicago in the 50s and 60s. And there was a lot of racial tension. There was a lot of gangland activity, both street gangs and mafia. But I must say, the the mafia guys treated my father and my mother
Speaker: ah with the utmost respect. yeah So I don't know what they did when they weren't around, but they were very respectful to my mom and dad because they liked the music he played. Yeah. And that, that sort of fits the pattern, right? They're not, they're not your typical sort of street thugs. They're, they're respectable and in a, in a, in a sort of a sense, I guess I would say. well Yeah. Well, interesting. That's an interesting journey for you. And then of course you established yourself here. I mean, you must've got into the the music scene fairly early because you were, you were on only 16 when you were on the ocean recording. Is that correct? Yeah, that's, that's true. I, uh, I turned 13 that first, uh,
Speaker: fall that we were here and I got a bass and I started practicing and I started playing in bands in my neighborhood when I was 14. So did you start out on bass or did you have piano and and guitar and everything else? Did you just try everything? ah No, i i played I played flute in school okay and then I i had a Someone gave me a baritone ukulele before I left Chicago and I started tuning it to G, D, A, and E like a bass. Okay. and And then copying songs that I would hear on the radio. Right. And what was your influence? was Motown obviously would have been a a big influence, I would assume. Yeah, yeah. There was a lot of Motown. um Then there was also
Speaker: I loved Paul Revere and the Raiders, the pop stuff. yep I loved Paul Revere and the Raiders. They were so much fun. And they were actually really good musicians that that that did those recordings. and and But I loved their music. And then, of course, it wasn't long ah before it was the kinks, the beetles, the animals, the stone. And we were copying all of that stuff. Well, again, you're very broad influence at that time you came up. I mean, it would jazz, blues, R and &B, funk, pop, rock, heavy, light, adult contemporary folk music. I mean, you must have had a ah splash of all of that. Oh, definitely. And and even radio stations weren't um necessarily limiting themselves ah to a narrow view of we only play
Speaker: country or we only play pop or we only play. They were playing any songs that were popular, that people enjoyed and that that's what they played. yeah They played songs that were were good. Oh, very cool. And then, so you got into some early bands, I guess you got into the music scene, but again, you're so young and 14, 15 years old playing in gigs. Did you do the bar scene and and the school dances and all that stuff? Did you manage to do that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how, uh, uh, by the time I got into ocean, I was, I turned 17 right after the record came out. Okay. And, uh, and then we started
Speaker: playing shows it and some of the places that we played were ah bars, but everyone else was 24, 25 years old. Right. Yeah. And 17, 18 year old me, I just walked in. Yeah. And was that a gospel band? Like, I mean, obviously I didn't say gospel influence, but that was a big influence as well for many. Was that, was that a gospel band or was that just a song that they chose? Yeah, it was it was basically a song that was chosen for us by a record company. okay um So we weren't actually looking for that. yeah um We were just looking to make a record. yeah And um they suggested that we take take that song on. The song had already been recorded on ah an album by Anne Murray. yeah and ah but But her record company at the time
Speaker: um Told her that they didn't think that it would be a very strong single so they would they didn't release her version and then she was pretty angry when Our version of put your hand in the hand went screaming up the chart. Well, yeah, but your version I think was better You know, it was it was more pop and you know, it was a cool cooler version. I guess I would say Yeah, yeah, we had ah I have to admit in hindsight. It it was a ah Pretty cool version and and we were in that time We were hooked on the band and so there were influences of of that in in our recording of that song, right? Yeah, if you if you listen to that song the interesting thing about it is There were very few overdubs only vocal but
Speaker: There were the basically the three singers, myself, Greg Brown and Janice Morgan, and drummer and a guitar player, ah Chuck Slater and Dave Tamblyn. Basically, I was the only one playing an electric instrument through an amp, the bass. Everything else was a piano, an acoustic guitar, and a set of drums. Wow. yeah And just an overhead mic on the drums, I guess, back then, right? Just a couple of overheads, maybe. No, no, we were starting. Yeah, they were starting to do the couple of overs and, you know, there were about four mics probably on that set of drums. Kick, snare. Well, very cool. yeah yeah So then when I was tracking your timeline, did did you have a solid band then or did you become more of a mercenary? Because you you have sort of a mercenary history, right? You played with a lot of different people and was that a plan for you just to to go out and get as much experience as you could get?
Speaker: No, um I mean, I was in that band, which was my first ah professional band for five years plus. Okay. And so I was only in that band yeah for five years. And it's only after that went away that I started moving through different things, but the the Red Rider, for example, when Tom Cochran and I joined the already existing Red Rider, um we were we went five, six years doing nothing else oh but that. Okay, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, how did that, because I read i read here that you you did a little bit of a stint with Alex Lifeson and John Ruzzi just before a Rush was formed as well.
Speaker: Yes, which was before even ocean. Oh, okay. High school day. That was high school days. yeah And so Rush was not, uh, at a point to do, um, writing or recording yet. Um, we were just high school kids yeah and Getty came along and he lived closer to Alex's place than I did. And so Alex and I agreed that he should come in. because guys in my neighborhood were copying the same songs that we were doing. Right. Okay. I was just, I was confused on the timeline there. That's all. Yeah. That would have been when I was like 15. Okay. Gotcha. For just a, for a summer, a brief few weeks, one summer. But what a neat experience that turned out to be looking back, I guess. say Oh, looking back. Yeah. and Incredible. And, um, I, I never,
Speaker: really saw and Alex after that um until 1983. And what what had happened was I went with Ocean the next summer. I was but with Ocean and we spent the better part of five years touring the world. yeah And Rush was just starting to build their audience. By by the time I came back from that, So we never really, uh, we never really connected. know And then in 83, um, I was with red rider and we were on a Pat Benatar tour in the U S oh and we were coming into a play a show in Oklahoma city. And we got into town the night before and rush was playing at the same
Speaker: arena that night with golden earring as an opening act, oh you know, Twilight twilight Zone. yeah yeah So anyway, they were the opening act for Rush. We went to see Rush and then Alex looks invited us back after the show to, you know, have a meal and ah and a chat. And it was the first time we had seen each other since about 68, 69. Crazy. So I'm sure you had a good visit and got to hang out a bit. Yeah. And then we ended up but doing a bunch of shows with them over the next year, about a half a dozen shows opening for Rush in the next year. yeah Because by that by that time, Neil Perk was in in the band and he and he and Tom, because of their literary influences really hit it off and
Speaker: And Alex and I got to know each other a bit again, and and they decided we should do these shows with them, and yeah like Toronto, Montreal, Quebec, Buffalo. And so that was a real experience. Yeah, for sure. Well, interesting. Well, you got you obviously were immersed in the Toronto music scene and and respected for your part that you played. And then you had a connection with Ronnie Hawkins as well. I mean, he was the hub of a lot of entertainers and musicians there, right? You know what, before I go to Ronnie, I want to ah bring up the interaction. I i listened to ah very briefly your piece with Lisa Hart. Oh, nice. And from Montreal and a lot of those people crossed over into the band Ocean at the end of its tenure. Oh, wow. So you had a connection with Lisa.
Speaker: I have a connection with Lisa and we had the same manager during 1975, 76. And we used to go see her and she would come see us and we would all hang out. um And she was a delightful person and ah and a great talent. And, you know, I'll always remember, you know, her bands were always just Great and great musicians and great people. And so anyway, that's so that's great. in section and And think about it almost 50 years ago now. Right. I mean, it's, right yeah, it's 2024 here. as Wow. Crazy. Wow. Wow. All right. So when ah oddly enough, when the last day came of ocean, when we decided to pack it in, which I guess was
Speaker: seventy s six my phone rang in my hotel room in either Belleville or Brockville, Ontario. We we had had come to a point where no one was in, yeah you know, we could play smaller venues, but no one was interested in um us recording new material because there had been so much double dealing ah in regard to our contracts with the initial record labels. okay So we we were kind of like, nobody wants to touch that. It's nothing but trouble. right We decided to pack it in and my phone rings and it's Ronnie Hawkins, who I already knew a little bit um because he used to play when i was ah you know when I was a kid, I was already an ocean.
Speaker: But I was still a kid and still not legally supposed to be in the bar. Right. And he we played in a big place ah called the Friars Tavern in Toronto. And so the main floor was like a ah showroom for the pop band. You know, and Tony Orlando and Dawn would be the week before us or the week after. So you'd play there for a week nice and upstairs. was Ronnie Hawkins in the pub. And then downstairs in the basement of this huge building was a piano bar. And my father was the resident pianist. Oh, wow. And so it was an incredible time of running up and down the stairs, trying to schedule our set so that we could go and see each other. Yeah, very hilarious. So did you end up playing with Ron? Yes. So he, he called me.
Speaker: that very day and said, I wonder if you'd like to play in my band. And he told me the same thing that he told Robbie Robertson. He said, I can't afford to pay you much. but you're going to get more than Frank Sinatra. Oh, there you go. That was well, Ronnie's known as a wild and crazy guy, right? He was, uh, he was, he was living on the edge of the party guy, but everybody seemed to like him and respect him. He seemed to be like a good time Charlie kind of a guy, right? Yeah. He was not, there was not a mean bone in his body and he would fairly respectful to all of his musicians and
Speaker: friends and he also brought with me Greg Brown, the a keyboard player from Ocean. wow we We joined his band and Jack DeKaiser ah you Are you familiar with him? Yeah. He plays out here sometimes at Blue Frog Studios, actually. He's a guitar player. He just got played out here. Yeah. um He was in the band. Have you ever heard of King Biscuit Boy? I have. Yeah. I'm not familiar, but I know the name. Yeah. It's ah oh a blues harmonica player. So those guys were also in the band. It was a huge band.
Speaker: There were about three guitars, drums, bass, you know. yeah But it was just a rollicking, rolling year. I had to pack it in after a year. I could not party and drink that hard. Live that life. Yeah, I gotcha. So let me let me ask you an odd question. how many How many people do you think Ronnie Hawkins had through his band or played with over the years? Could you could you even pick a number? Oh, I can't even... It's over a hundred. Yeah. I mean, he was probably, yeah I mean, the Hawks were with him for such a long time before they became the band. Well, I don't know. Was it a long time? Was it two years, three years, yeah four years? But they were one of the longest serving. And yeah, just he had a lot of people come through there and boy, it was a ah learning, learning experience. And, and, you know,
Speaker: The thing i've got I've got to credit him with, you know, bringing all these crazy people together, but what he did that made it so that we could go on tour and we we could play the music even though people were, ah let's shall we say, having their are cups. He basically had us go into the barn on his property every day to live up there for two weeks or more and every day go into that barn and practice practice um practice and play those same songs over and over and make it tight make it tight make it tight and not drinking yeah
Speaker: We could have one or two beer at the end of the day and no more. And there was no fooling around, but then you got tight and you could play those songs easily. Yeah. Then once we got out on the road, then all bets were off. Well, fair enough, but you, you, you, it wasn't just a rollicking free for all, right? You were playing some serious tunes in a serious way. Yeah. Well, a good, good friend of mine lives out here, Helen Dugay. She was a bass player from Toronto and she moved out here many years ago and she had a connection with Ronnie Hawkins too. That's why I asked because oh lots and lots of people went through and, and, and I, again, surprisingly, I don't know why I don't, I never met Ronnie Hawkins, but
Speaker: Almost everyone, even even David Foster in his book mentions that he was in the band for a little while and speak highly of him. That's right. We had a lot of good times. That's for sure. So then you hooked up with Red Ryder. You got into Red Ryder. How did that happen? Well, that happened after, so there was a little stop after Ronnie and before Red Ryder, where I started playing in a band called Stingery. Right. with a guitarist named Bernie Labarge. And another guitarist that you will know ah named Brian McLeod. Certainly. Yeah. Of course, people on the West Coast are familiar with too loud. Yeah, absolutely. ah So he was in our band Stingray when he got the call to join Chilliwack. So he left our band to join Chilliwack. Okay. And
Speaker: Our band dried up, um not just because of the loss of Brian, because God, he was talented. yeah But Bernie Labarge is also ah very talented and wonderful voice. ah But what what happened was there was a manager that was interested in managing us. And as soon as we got involved with him, we stopped seeing very many bookings. And he was also in the position of trying to manage a band called Red Rider that was spelled with a Y, R -Y -D -E -R. yeah And there was no Tom Cochran in that band. There was no Jeff Jones in that band. And um then they decided that two of the guys in their band
Speaker: uh, wanted to move more toward jazz fusion type of music. okay And the remaining three wanted to do more like what we ended up doing the red rider. Once we started recording in 1979. So they wanted two different guys and the two different guys that they found were Tom Cochran and myself. Wow. And that's so great. Cause I'm a huge Red Ryder fan. I love it. I lunatic fringe and white hot, no such great songs. And both thank you. yeah Thank you. Ended up being, I guess you're, you're trying to find the right combination and the right people and then the right songs and then promote them in the right way. And I guess it all just came together for you guys after that. Yeah. You know, we, we just, uh,
Speaker: the The record label ah believed in us and and went for it because, I mean, a song like White Hot was not really ah what a pop song sounded like in 1980. So we were kind of against the grain. and um But it it showed what it can be. I mean, that's still one of the most, all the successes that Tom's had since then. I mean, Lunatic Fringe was on the the next album love it and though those two songs are some of our most popular songs during a set.
Speaker: even now. Well, it for sure. And they they just become part of the the music landscape of your life. But I mean, those songs, they that you're right, they were a little bit different, but i I craned my ear right away when I heard it. I thought, well, that's a cool song. I like that. And then when I heard Lunar Took Fringe, I thought, okay, I'm in. This is this is fantastic. yeah you yeah Yeah. And the way you your bass, and it kind of breathes, you know, you got that rolling, it's just such a great groove. and And you know it's not a dancing song. you're not It doesn't sound like you were chasing hit songs per se, just trying to write stuff that's cool. Yeah. And you know Tom's lyrics, that's ah that's a big part of it. Excellent. I've learned so much from being with him over the years about lyric writing and songwriting. In in lyrics specifically, a lot of times um
Speaker: I hear people write a song and the lyrics aren't as good as the music. right and And they go, well, it's that's it. I'm done. And I will always say, go back and try to find a better way of saying what you're saying, a more interesting way of saying what you're saying. Sometimes you have to write those lyrics a number of times and Tom is a master of, and still is, of ah writing lyrics in a way that you get the idea what he's singing about, but you're not being spoon -fed. You're not handed the whole thing on a silver platter. You have to do a little thinking. and You have to
Speaker: form your own opinion of what you think the song is. Yeah. You have to engage, right? It's not a passive sort of listening. You have to engage, good lyrics make you engage in them, right? Yeah. Yeah. And and you remain friends with Tom. You're still active with him. You're still doing shows. So you do Red Rider shows and the Tom Cochran shows. Is that right? No, no, there is no real Red Rider per se any longer. Okay. ah We could, we stopped, um a couple of years ago calling it Tom Cochran and Red Ryder. For no reason in particular, but ah legally we could still call it Red Ryder because there's two of us there, which is more than is in a lot of bands that are out there. that's That's the truth, yes. um But when you see us, there's generally
Speaker: the two of us there. And, uh, but we, we go as, uh, Tom Cochran. Yeah. there good And how many dates, how many dates are you doing in this year? For example, is Tom still active? yeah I know he's got something. Yeah. Yeah. We haven't done much the first half of this year. We closed out the year with a few shows and, uh, we had a show in March down in Windsor, which was really a amazing. And, and we're doing about, eight or 10 shows over the summer into the fall. yeah And I think there will be more coming is toward the end of the year. But, you know, this summer is when a lot of the festivals and know a lot of things that all the bands play every summer. yeah um So we'll we'll be doing some of those, but not as many as usual.
Speaker: yeah Yeah. Well, I was going to ask because you're in the Carpet Frogs obviously, which is Burton Cummings backup band, and you're doing some dates with him too. So you, you must be doing a little play and checkers with the calendar a little bit there and balancing things out. Yep. Yep. It's, ah it's got its moments, but, um, amazingly there aren't any, um, real, um, clashes. Okay. Good. Like, uh, yeah. So, uh, I do have, uh, someone that is very proficient, that fills in for me with the carpet frogs or with ah Burton when we're with him. yeah um A bass guy should I be with Tom and can't get away. yeah um So we kind of have a system for working that out.
Speaker: yeah Um, yeah. Yeah. And then so your, your carpet frogs, you do dates, uh, as well. And then you got your own sort of entity there. You got some, even, even some original music. I looked on the carpet frogs .com. You've got corporate events. You got, uh, festivals, I guess, or an end recording and everything. Yeah. That's a full band, right? Full on. Go for it. Yeah. and Yeah. Yeah. I mean the carpet frogs, we don't, um, make, uh, records any longer. We made one. in 94 and we made two in the early 2000s. Okay. But, uh, primarily we're just a, a live act. And, uh, yeah, we've we've been, we do our annual boat cruise in the Toronto Harbor. Oh, nice. for you And, it's really enjoyable. People love to come out there and sailing around the Harbor.
Speaker: Well, not saying you're, there's a motor yeah and nice ah got a full, full PA in there and a full buffet meal. And, uh, everybody has a great time. Very nice. So how, I'm sure you've been asked a thousand times, but how did the carpet frogs, how did that name come about? Oh, I can't tell you Dan, or I'd have to kill you. Okay. It's a secret. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. it It's not, not a really a big thing. just someone said it one night and we cracked up and we said, hey, well let's just call this band that we're doing one or two dates with.
Speaker: Let's call it the Carpet Rock, and that was in 1992. Wow, yeah. i I guess that's right. i did I did see that you've been together for a long time and it's been a successful act. And then what's it like working with Burton? I mean, Burton's one of my favorite guys. I'm a huge fan. The Guess Who was my favorite band when I was in when i was a teenager, early teens in the early seventies. I mean, I just thought The Guess Who was the band. and I listened to Burton and i he taught me how to sing in the sense that I listened to his albums and tracked his voice and tried to emulate what he was doing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. um It's amazing. I mean, he's he's a great musician, a great singer, a great writer. And yeah, ah we've had nothing but fun out there because this is now 20 odd years since we've been playing with him. Wow. God, we've done
Speaker: all manner of things. but it's yeah yeah no he's He's great great to work with. you know He's particular about what he likes, yeah and um but we pretty quickly figured out what those things are, and that's what we do. and Really, it just comes down to giving faithful renditions of classic songs that you've heard. Well, fair enough. And and you defer to the person. I mean, like if you if you're going to be in his band, you defer to what he wants. That's that's not a problem at all, right? Just say, what do you want? Yeah. And it's easy. And it's easy. I mean, when we first started to play with Burton before we had played an actual show, a he built in some time
Speaker: for rehearsals. And he thought, oh, well, we're going to need this many days to rehearse a show. Well, the songs were all the songs that we all grew up with. Yeah, that's right. Familiarity was definitely there, right? Right, right. So even if we hadn't actually played them, picked up an instrument and played those songs or sung those harmonies, they were in your blood. yeah for sure And so after a couple or three days of rehearsal, he's like, okay, what are we supposed to do now? right because Because we knew this stuff. As soon as you started playing the the music, it was like just a ah trip down memory lane yeah and and you knew the array you knew the arrangement.
Speaker: Interesting. You heard it. A million times. Well, it's funny because I know Burton loves you guys and and obviously loves playing with you guys. And the friends of mine out here play in Randy Backman's band, right? so more Yeah. So, Martin Franz and Mick and Brent, they're friends of mine and they've played out here for years. I've known them for decades and and they don't get to do those dates because you guys do them, right? Because Burton insists on playing with you guys. Right, right. And by the way, I love all those guys and Randy, like I love all those guys. um Amazing musicians and talents and singing. um But yeah, no, um unfortunately, when it comes to Randy and Burton playing together, then
Speaker: Burton insists that it's us guys. Yeah, which it kind of makes sense. I mean, you're the Bachman Cummings thing, but you're doing the Guess Who stuff and Burton wants what he wants. yeah And that's, again, you defer to the person who's, he's the one that's up there singing those songs. So give him what he wants. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and the bars set quite high when we play Randy songs or BTO songs. yeah The bar is high because his band is killing it. So we love those guys. Any more dates coming up like Bachman Cummings dates? ah No, there's not there's not because i I think they're doing a ah few BTO shows as well as some straight up Randy Bachman shows. So he's got his own thing going at this point, but um I wouldn't
Speaker: rule it out that something happens down the line. Well, good. So let me ask you a couple other things. You you worked with Gowan at some point. What was your connection with him? Well, we knew each other way back when we were kids, but we had never played together. But I used to go and see him in the the the band he had called Ryan Gold. And it was amazing. It was sort of like Prague Rock with a, you know, they had a story and a watchmaker and really interesting. But at any rate, once he had done the strange animal and criminal mind part of his career, he had in his band, um ah Paul Delong on drums, who's a
Speaker: great a musician. He had Ken Greer from Red Rider was ah on guitar ah from about 89, 90. He didn't play. Neither of us were playing with Tom during those years when Life's a Highway was on. So neither of us were playing with Tom during that time. But Ken was playing with a Gowan and Gowan had his bass player was Peter for that. And he was with Kim Mitchell, of course, for so so long. um But during in 94, Peter reunited with Kim, because they hadn't played together for a few years. Okay, either. And they started playing shows together again. So Larry called me and said, Hey,
Speaker: Uh, if I have shows later this year, um, Peter won't be able to do them. Would you be interested? And I said, sure. So I ended up, we played together with that little group from 94 till about 98. So I would have to sub out carpet frogs sometimes during that time. yeah But, uh, his tours were usually, you know, two weeks early in the year, two weeks later in the year. do as much of the country as you can, not a lot of spot dates in between. right okay but then But then by 98, I think that's the time that he joined Styx. Well, yeah, I was going to say like Larry's a special talent, right? Ridiculous. yeah right Never heard anyone play a piano as cleanly as him except for classically trained or jazz musicians. Uh, never heard anything like that. Well, and then Styx was such a great fit for him because he's just made to be in that band with all those hit songs. Absolutely. Fantastic. So, well, very cool. And then, so yeah, that's some other experience. I want to talk about what you're doing now as well, but, uh, just to finish up on the history of it in, in 91, you, you were, uh, with the Infidels with Molly Johnson and and Norman Ornstein, is it? We called it Rock and Soul. Molly and Norman had this band and they had done this recording.
Speaker: And then I guess session musicians had played a part in making the record. But then when the band went on tour and the band did videos, I got the call to to come and do that. Nice. And I basically got they were auditioning people and I basically got the job because I could sing and I could blend well and harmonize with Molly. Yeah. And and um it's unfortunate because we actually, it was a great band. There was some great music, some innovative videos, and we won a Juno in 92, most promising new group. yeah And within a couple of years, we were gone um because um not because of internal fighting, but the record label basically put the kibosh on everything. and
Speaker: We had completely recorded a follow -up album and ah they put it into legal limbo for 15 years. That's not the first time I've heard that story, but it sucks when you hear it. so And I was going to ask you how much songwriting and singing have you done? Like so in 2001 you released a solo CD positive and then I listened to the song Diamond Light. You got the nice song right you got that smooth voice if I may say it's funny because Someone asked me one time who my three favorite singers were and I and I that that silky sort of black like smooth voice, you know I thought of Nat King Cole and I thought of Lionel Richie and I thought of seal and stuff and those guys have that beautiful control and tone and and just gorgeous and you've got a very smooth voice sort of like that and Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah. um I often get even though it's different, and sometimes I use a different register, feel a lot of people ah connect me with him. My drummer from the Carpet Frogs, Sean Fitzsimons, he has been saying for years, you know, the seal song.
Speaker: So you're never going to survive oh unless he's been saying ever since that song came out. So did this guy steal your vibe? Why why aren't you singing that song? yeah So one day I'm going to sing that song. There you go. So how much songwriting have you done and and and singing? and I saw you're playing acoustic guitar in one one video as well. Yeah, well, that's been my new, it was one of the first things I did. When we were an ocean, I always sang an acoustic or an electric, you know, aside from the bass on the gigs. And yeah, I've had a few acoustics stolen over the years. Oh, geez. um One out of my house, and one out of a van. And I ended up
Speaker: not replacing them as quickly as I could because I was poor. So I just went without and said, well, I've got my moneymakers, my bases, I'll still just do that. Anyway, at that time when I did the positive CD and and that song that you mentioned, Diamond Light, was actually written by Ken Greer from Red Rock and he he produced that record. and And we pretty much did what we wanted. and So it was it was a cool experience. So that was my first really big writing experience. like I had a song on an Ocean album or two, and I had a couple of co -writes on early Red Rider songs, Red Rider albums, I should say, but but nothing significant.
Speaker: So that album was a big turning point for me, nice doing that bunch of writing and bunch of singing. But then after that point, it gave me some sort of credibility that I don't think I had before. That's when Tom Cochran called myself and Ken Greer and asked if we wanted to do some shows together again. oh nice So that's what started that whole ball rolling it again. I think he heard that and thought, wow, these guys aren't so bad after all. And so we started playing together again. And it was also around the time that the Carpet Frog started playing with Burton. So what ended up happening in the next years was there was a lot of touring with both of those bands. I never really had time to
Speaker: write and record. I kind of need kind of space to do that. Some people can do it on a plane, do it on a napkin in a restaurant, yeah i hear put it in their pocket, pull it out the next day. I'm not that guy. And he ended up ah working so much that when I would be off the road and I had young family, I was doing dad things. Yeah. No, I hear you. I totally hear that. Yeah. So I wasn't really going for that, but I did in 2007, I released that ah EP called Air of Desperation. Yeah. And um it had only three songs, but it was supposed to be more songs, but the touring ah took over again. Right. So again, that part got put to the back door. But then this last year, I've just been wrapped up in doing a bunch of gigs with as a duo with my partner Jerry Finn, who also plays with the carpet frogs. It's a bit convoluted. He plays with the carpet frogs when we're not playing with Burton or
Speaker: He will play with Burton if one of the guitar players there needs the sub. So he knows the show. yeah But he and I started doing the last few years an acoustic duo. And the next thing you know, we started writing some stuff and Tom's sound band is named Ken Friesen is producing my project. because we've been working together the last 10 years and he just kept saying to me, your voice keeps opening up. Your voice keeps getting more open. Let's try to record it. So we just went ahead and did it. Nice. Well, I saw a video of Jeff James trio and yours, you're, you're playing acoustic guitar and playing ocean blue. Yeah. Yeah. That's with, uh,
Speaker: with Sean and Michael from the Carpet Frogs a few years back. I got you, okay. Yeah, we did a ah little acoustic trio for a minute there too. Yeah, I got you. Oh, I was going to say too, I was going to backtrack to era of desperation because you did Money with Michael Sadler of Saga, which is was strong. Yeah, I feel there like a lot of people really loved that song. ah As did we, and there's a bit of a story behind it. um I was working on it in a studio where Saga sometimes rehearsed and where, you know, everybody rehearsed at this place, Kim Mitchell, and he stored his gear there. My good friend, Mo Carney, his studio was called Phantom Finger. And Michael heard that I was doing some recording And he had a guy that was representing him at the time reach me and said, Michael would like to take part if you wanted him to sing. And I said, sure. You know, Beyonce has been called. but i Michael Sadler. Yeah, great. So we made the song money into a duet, a shared vocal. And I got to tell you, he's just very strong what he brought
Speaker: to the song. like I had already written the song and the melody and the lyrics. He came and added his vocal to it and just the icing on the cake. Cool. No, that's good. Well, I mean, again, you've got these different projects and different experiences, but they all sort of come together to make you. and I think a but professor one time said something that always stuck with me. He said, every experience I've had in my life I bring to this day. to move forward with. Yeah. Right. And that's yeah pretty cool. You know, I thought, yeah, that's right. yeah And you've had lots of experience. That's the truth. That's the truth. You know, um when when you when you step up to the plate, it's not just what you did today. You're bringing all of that with you.
Speaker: So we're running out of time, but I just want to ask you a few rapid questions. If I can, I have a few more for you. If you want to do a rapid fire, is that okay? Sure. Sure. I did i just want to tell you about the song that I just released. Please do. You want to do that at the end. No, do it right now. Let's do it. the The song is called Velvet Sky and it's just recently been released on Roar Records. And it's one of um what will be a full record in the fall. We have a few in the can already, and we're going to start leaking them out ah from time to time. And this is at Ken Friesen's studio outside of Ottawa with my partner, Jerry Finn.
Speaker: yeah and We just find it very comfortable to be able to sit down, write a song, record it. There's no demo phase. We go right to the master. And the thing that I need to express about Velvet Sky is that and back in 2017, I had the opportunity with the carpet frogs to visit the NATO base in Latvia. And we spent to a few days there.
Speaker: and um talk to soldiers and entertain them as well and um I learned a lot of things about military life about world foreign affairs because sitting in Latvia at that base you were 200 kilometers from the Russian border and Russia had invaded Crimea. So in that period of time since then, there are a lot more NATO soldiers. Well, NATO soldiers are the armed forces of all the nations. yeah And they have really beefed that up because this Putin guy, I don't think
Speaker: He cares to be stopped. He wants to do whatever he wants to do. And it's a scary thing for our world. And these people are out there to protect our democracy and our way of life. And they really impressed me. And ah it inspired a couple of years of ruminating over how have to say what I said in this song. In Velvet Sky? Well, very nice. and And yes, the Baltic States want to be included in the NATO protections and they want their freedoms and they want to maintain those. So kudos to you for acknowledging that and then and then reflecting that in your song. So where can people access that, Jonesy? Spotify, Apple Music, okay good YouTube and um whatever else is going.
Speaker: yeahp Okay. Well, let me do my rapid fire. You've toured a lot through US, Canada. You've been over to Europe. You've been around the world a little bit. Yes. Yes. For sure. And do you still do, you still look forward to those trips or are you scaling back a little bit? Oh no. I mean, if someone wants to see you or whatever entity you were involved with, if it has enough interest, um, that people want that, Um, I'm more than happy to make the trip. Okay. it's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So when you, when you started out, when you were a young guy, what was your goal? If you just said, I want to be such and such, did you fulfill what you wanted to be? Oh God, I i don't know. I mean, I just saw Paul Revere and the Raiders playing on a dock and everyone is smiling and laughing and.
Speaker: and having fun, and I thought that's a pretty good way of life. absolutely And I never really thought much past it, but then it's remarkably, it started happening at such a young age for me. but yeah no i yeah And I had in the back of my mind, I guess because of my upbringing around show business with my father, yeah I had seen a stage production of The Sound of Music, and an incident happened when I was five or six years old back then, that I realized the nuns on stage, if you're familiar with the the movie, The Sound of Music, when they do... ah they are yeah when When they do that, there's like a thousand nuns out there.
Speaker: Well, in the stage production, there's 30 or 40 nuns in the wings and I got to see it twice. well First time out front and then the second time I'm in the wings and the second time the nuns were cranky. It was a hot summer day and they're smoking cigarettes and calling each other not very nice names. I went, oh my goodness. They're not really nuns. They're just normal people that are pretending to be nuns for our entertainment. yeah
Speaker: well So, I mean, you reached a decent level of success. I mean, you got to be on some hit records and stuff. Did you reach the level of success that you wanted or did you have that in mind or did you care? um Once I got into it and once I got past ah the the point of ah getting burned, because early on, even though that first recording, you put your hand in the hand, was wildly successful, um we were not financially wildly successful. Right, typical story, yeah. Right, it's a ah typical story, Wild wild West. yeah um i I had a different slant on it afterward. Of course it let my appetite to keep following that, chase that dream,
Speaker: because it seemed like it would be fairly attainable. yeah But the more that I did it, the more that it dawned on me that the best thing that I could do was just to keep making good music, regardless of whether it's popular or successful or gold records, right ah do what I think is quality. yeah and And that's why, you know, That's why the next thing up really was the Red Rider experience because that's how we approached it. We weren't looking necessarily at there being a hit record. We were looking at, we want to have an album that has good songs on it.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Fair point. And then, and then the other part of it is the sacrifice. You know, I often ask my guests, what did you sacrifice? But, you know, you want to have a family. You want to have a life. You don't want to just give your whole life to, to music because you want to do other stuff too. So how did you balance that out? It's tricky. Um, but you do, you find a way, you find a way. That's all you can do. And I mean, in the recent years, say even the last 20 when we have done a lot of really good work and and good touring. hello We're not out there for six months at a time. Yeah, fair point. yeah we're We're out for a couple of weeks, maybe. ah Sometimes it's ah every weekend for half a year, yeah you know, so you do have a balance, you do get to go home. Like in the 80s, we'd be out there for
Speaker: a few months at a time. yeah So it really helps when you can have the balance of coming home every once in a while. Yeah, well for sure. And what would you do differently if you if you could do it again over the last 60 years? What would you do differently? um I think I would have um applied myself a little more to writing, okay song songwriting. yeah because it's a great, um, way of expression. And it, it lasts in a way that just being a good musician and having put on good shows that has its value. Yeah. But you know, you know, who people talk about when they talk about the guess who or red rider, they talk about Tom Cochrane or they talk about Burton Cummings. Fair point. Yeah. So,
Speaker: i They understood that early on, yeah and they clearly had an immense a gift for that. um I have a gift for that, but it's not to the degree of of those giants, but that's the one thing I think I would have ah attempted a little bit more songwriting. Yeah, fair point. I mean, you know, some guys come up with hit songs and it's hard to even write one hit song and then you guys got like John Fogarty or Burton Cummings or those guys. They've written 20, 30 hit songs. I mean, there's just some knack about it. There's some affinity that they have to knowing where to go. Gordon Lightfoot.
Speaker: for example, you know, locking yourself in a room for three days and coming out with these fantastic, it's not everybody's gift. And I guess if you compare your weakness or or something that you're not as gifted in with someone else's strength, then you feel like, yeah maybe you know, maybe I should have done better, but but that's okay. Right, right. I mean, I went through a ah period of of trying right and I was younger and I felt like, oh, this is just the same as everyone else. The girl broke my heart. I feel sad and lonely. what I wish I had a sports car. oh Oh, wait. I did have a sports car. Wait. Uh, so how, what am I going to write about now? yeah Cause back then it wasn't cool to say, Hey,
Speaker: I bought an Alfa Romeo when I was 18. you know It's not like. well so was there some kind of Now that's cool. Was there some kind of message in your music, like a social or political message or anything like that? Were you thinking about using music for that? Yeah. yeah i like I like that idea, but i I like to not have it be obvious, heavy handed. Kind of preachy, right? You don't want to be preachy in your songs. i no No, I do not. But then like Tom Cochran, when he wrote Life as a Highway, he talked about that, right? you know About the trip I guess he made to Africa and stuff. I think I heard him tell that story. and Yeah, like it was huge hugely impactful for him. And people think of that song and they think of the chorus and the
Speaker: the simplicity of the of of that ah refrain. But when you listen to the lyrics in the verses, there's depth in there. yeah He's talking about real life. That's different. A lot of songs that I hear that are popular, they they have a a chorus part that is, and how about John john Mayer? Your body is a wonderland. Is that him? Body is a wonderland. I think that's John Mayer. Okay, big hit song. yeah Great a catchphrase. But listen to the verse and what the hell is he talking about? He's just made up some words that rhyme and there's no real story to it. And not to pick on him because he's a great musician right and he's written some other other other things that were
Speaker: ah far superior to that particular piece, but that's potentially his biggest song. yeah And in my opinion, it's his weakest song. how How about Elton John? He's the amount of great songs that he's written and the biggest song that he's written is Crocodile Rock. but So try that on. Yeah, that's funny. Well, good. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing all this stuff with me. I mean, and we like to have a a deeper conversation online or notes and and ask some deeper questions and get some some interesting answers. And you certainly yeah have done that for us and we really appreciate it. I appreciate being able to do it. You're inspirational. I mean, I appreciate that you've been an icon in the music business since the late sixties and you're still out there and you're active and you're doing your thing. And I think that's, I applaud you for that.
Speaker: thank Thanks so much Dan, I appreciate it. Many thanks to Jeff Jones for being part of the Liner Notes podcast, ensuring some insights from his incredible experiences in the music business. More information is available at jeff -jones .com, excellent website full of lots of great information and the carpetfrogs dot .com for that band and the tour dates and things are on there as well. So we hope you enjoyed the podcast, we invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well. We also invite you to listen to Dusty Discs Radio Tuesdays and Thursdays to hear music from the Canadian artists you're hearing on this show. So until next time, I'm Dan here.
