Transcript
Speaker: Hi, it's Dan here for Dusty Gists Radio. This is the podcast, Liner Notes, revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Today, I'm very honoured to have as my special guest, songwriter and guitarist extraordinaire, Derry Graham, best known as a member of the iconic Canadian band, Honeymoon Suite. He's been an active and successful Canadian artist since the 70s, so we'll be talking about his musical adventures and get some insights into the Canadian music scene from someone who has really lived it. So thanks for joining me today. Derry, how are you?
Speaker: I'm good today, Dan. How are you? Good deal. I'm doing fine. And you're coming to us from Nashville. You live in Nashville, I understand now, or Illinois and Nashville.
Speaker: I do. I live in both places. So I have my daughter, my wife and I have a house here with our daughter, Leah, who's a singer. So I'm down here quite a bit for the music and everything else. And then we also have our home in Illinois. So I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between the two. So how did a boy from St. Catharines end up living in the States in Illinois in Nashville?
Speaker: Yeah, it's been a long road, man. Long story? Well, this boy, you know, got out of St. Catherine's Young and went to school in London and ended up in Toronto and ended up meeting Johnny Dee.
Speaker: on and on the band Honeymoon Suite. Many years later, I lived in Toronto for a long time, but my wife is an American together since the 80s. After our kids were when they were little, we moved out of Toronto and back to Bloomington, Illinois, where she's from. I wanted to get out of Toronto and I wanted to get my greeting card and live in the States as well because I live down here.
Speaker: And then Illinois is great, but of course Nashville is, you know, Nashville, LA is where the music at. And I kind of gravitate a little more towards Nashville. It's more of a community. So I started coming back and forth here. So I just, I love it here. Oh, good. Yeah. And I was, I was just saying in the preamble that I was just in Nashville for a week, about a week ago, and just lots of stuff going on. I mean, just tons. So in music everywhere.
Speaker: Yeah, it's gotten a little touristy down there on Broadway. It's pretty off the chain down there. I mean, it's the touristy and the drink. I mean, that's just the, you know, that's that part of it. But the town has got so many cool areas and venues and writers and musicians. It's pretty deep.
Speaker: Well, that's the thing. I often talk to my guests, especially the retro artists, how much of a buzz there was in the 60s and 70s and the times when you and I grew up, the AM radio was a central part of our lives and there was just such an enthusiasm about music and things that are coming out. When you go to Nashville nowadays, some of that is recaptured, I would think. Yeah. There's definitely a lot of music all over the place everywhere and it's known for the country down here, of course, but
Speaker: Country has branched off into so many genres now. It's ridiculous. It's gone into hip hop and R &B and rock and Americana. So it's a bit of everything. Well, and I'm a bit surprised, like a lot of the big country artists, well, of course, Beyonce just put out something in country, but a lot of the big country artists are doing stadium tours as well, which is kind of counterintuitive. You'd think that they're more down home, but they're doing, you know, BC Plays was just full of a big country concert two weeks ago here in Vancouver.
Speaker: It's, well, it's huge business. They're just, they're just, they saw what rock and roll was doing. They go, I want some of that. I want, you know, I want 15 trucks and huge trusses and stadiums. We can do that too. So country woke up and you know, next thing you know, you see in flash pots and smoke and bombs and everything in a country show, but you know, it's all about the money they can make it. So I guess, yeah. And then, and then Garth Brooks one time famously said, I think in the nineties that he got most of his inspiration for his live shows from kiss.
Speaker: Exactly. Well, that's where it came from, man. It came from Van Halen and, you know, the Motley crew and the ridiculous, you know, everything in excess, you know, stadium rock shows. They have to be big and loud. Yeah. It's funny with the country guys too, because they're still, they got the beard and the Mac jacket on and they're just good old boys, but they're playing to 30 ,000 people. Right. They talk to their audience.
Speaker: That's good though. Anyway, my point, I guess my overriding point was it's nice to have the buzz. When you got a good buzz around music, that helps all of us. Talking about the early days, you came up at an exciting time growing up in the 60s and 70s. Every kid's dream was to either play hockey or be in a rock and roll band. You were the new music guy?
Speaker: Yeah, I was always a music guy. I mean, I picked up the guitar when I was 11 and that was it. I was fascinated with it. I loved it. Too small to play any sports in high school. I didn't want to anyways. And it was always music from like 12, 13 years old.
Speaker: So when did you decide you could actually might be able to make a living doing that? Because a lot of people, I mean, everybody picks up something. We all play in school band and stuff, but making that transition to like, Hey, I might be able to make a living out of this. Like, when did that happen for you? Well, you know, I mean, it's just, it's just blind faith. It's just stupidity. You know, I just, just the love of it. No, it's just driven us.
Speaker: home from school I just couldn't wait to pick up the guitar and play so I just kept at it and you know I just watched other bands in my area like older dudes
Speaker: Forming bands and they were rock stars to me and I got a band together then we started playing some bars and that was successful to me. But I suppose there was a point when I had some cover bands right after high school that were not going anywhere so I ended up going to Fanshawe College in London.
Speaker: for the recording and music production course there, which of course made my parents happy that I was going to college for some reason. It was kind of a compromise, but that was the best two, three years of my life. I had so much fun down there learning the studio and learning to write. From there, I just joined other bands. It's been a long process, but it was blinders on, man. My focus was
Speaker: in spite of my parents and everything else. And I just wanted to, to be, you know, to make it. That's interesting because a lot of people back then, especially they were more stodgy, I guess about things, but they would say, what are you going to fall back on? I mean, I've been a full -time entertainer for over 40 years and nobody asked me that anymore, but they back then it'd be like, well, what else are you going to do? What are you going to fall back on? It's like, well, no, I'm just going to fall back on being good and try to be the best I can be. It's crazy. It's stupid. I know. And, uh, there is no plan B.
Speaker: And I would get in bands with guys who were, their biggest priority was partying and chicks and drinking, you know? And the show was just a vehicle to do that. But me, there was more beyond that. I wanted to have a career and write hit songs. So I eventually found people of like mind. You get out of it what you put into it and the people that you connect yourself with, you know, you have to be, you have to be so hyper focused.
Speaker: Yeah. No, you make a good point. And I went through the eighties and I sort of skipped the Coke and strippers phase, but a lot of musicians that got into that, once that all died, their music careers died with it because that was what they were in it for. Yeah. Which wasn't my thing. But I often ask my guests, you know, did you have a defining moment or how much of what you did was planned or happenstance or just straight up accident? And I guess it's a combination for most people.
Speaker: It's small steps along the way, starting in college and getting in little bands and playing on people's records or getting in a band and making a record with this artist and that artist. Recording albums, that was a huge thing. And beyond an actual album that came out, you know, several years before Honeymoon is Sweet. So it's just a process. One step to the next. And then fortunately,
Speaker: I met Johnny Dee somewhere along the way. I finally found a great frontman singer, which you really got to have that. He was a great singer, good looking Italian kid, and I had some good songs, and that was the start of it.
Speaker: So were you more, when you first started out, I mean, obviously you're trying to find the right combination, which you ended up doing, but were you more mercenary when you started like just playing with whoever seemed to have something on the go or what was your mentality back then? Just to play, to play with everybody. I mean, I had a cover band when I still lived in St. Catharines. We just went on the road.
Speaker: Northern Ontario and played cover songs. And that was fun as hell. I mean, I just love that. I mean, when you're 18, 19, 20 years old, it's fun. And you've got lots of time to work on it. But then in college, I would just seek out, I would write songs, get people to record them with me. And then I would join a band and make a record and then move up to Toronto and just try and get somewhere in this business.
Speaker: Well, I guess that's, that's probably your defining moment. If you could pick one, I guess you moved to Toronto to try to immerse yourself in that scene and find the right combination to get things going. Well, location is everything. And, uh, to me in this, especially in this business, and then first thing you got to do is get out of your, your little hometown, you know, um, you got to, you got to get out of there and go to in Canada, you get to go to Toronto or Vancouver. You got to go to a major city.
Speaker: Yeah. And then, so you wrote New Girl Now. And of course, you know, I was in a cover band at the time and working in BC and stuff. And I mean, that song hit really hard. When that came out, it was like, okay, this is a new band. All bands like to be able to do that, sort of kick the front door in and say, okay, we're here. This is our song and this is who we are. And, you know, the other great songs. But I mean, there's something magical about that. I think New Girl Now is still your highest song charting song, isn't it?
Speaker: It's pretty well -known in the States and Europe. I think it's probably the most well -known song. There's a song I wrote in my kitchen when I was in college. Probably wrote it in about half an hour. I was just writing songs and bringing them in and I'd get some guys together. We'd go in the studio and record it. Then years later, Johnny just sung it and it became a hit. Music's funny like that.
Speaker: Well, it is because it's a simple song. I mean, the other songs that you've done, like Feel It Again and Bad Attitude are more, I don't know what to say, complicated, but they're more intricate, I would say. And New Girl Now is a very straight ahead, simple, medium tempo, but it's got some magic to it that just resonates with people. Yeah. Well, you got to get, you know, simple as less as more and I have to keep reining myself in because I can get very complicated, but
Speaker: You've got to get out of the way of the song. New Girl Now was one of those tracks where it was at the time when the cars had first come out with their first records. I love the cars. I love it. I was actually ripping them off a little bit. I believe it's moving in stereo by the cars. It's very similar, but don't tell anybody that.
Speaker: Well, I mean song ghosting is something that's pretty well known now even I remember David Lee Roth was saying that and and Randy Backman said that to find pick your favorite song and then change the chords a little bit and kind of Just mix it around a little bit But did you get did you get pressure from the record company? I mean, I had a friend that had a modest hit song in the record company said well We want 10 more songs just like that. Did you try to write another new girl now? Oh
Speaker: No, not really, because that's just not what came out at that time. If you listen to any Honeymoon suite record, every song to me is different. You listen to the first album, you've got New Girl Now and Burning in Love, but then you've got...
Speaker: Wade Babies. Oh yeah, love it. And it's a bit of everything, but they all fit within the honeymoon suite kind of sound. I would write whatever, I just try and write the best songs. So the difference between the first album, those were quickly written songs and they're simple and they have a magic to them.
Speaker: But then the big prize, what does it take, feel it again, bad attitude, the songs were a little more polished and complicated or more chord changes.
Speaker: It's the natural evolution, but they're all great. So, I mean, I'm a big Honeymoon Sweet fan. Obviously, I'll admit that right up and be a bit of a fan boy here. But, you know, I love the tunes and bad attitude. I thought it was just great. But the thing is, I guess that's the rub for what you're talking like a singer songwriter, someone who's writing songs. The record companies are like, we want to sell songs like New Girl Now sells. So we want more songs like that. And you're thinking, well, that's not the way I write. I want to make them different and fresh and something cool.
Speaker: Yeah, that's true, but at the same time, this is a business.
Speaker: And I wanted hits as well. And I would listen to the label and I would listen to the producers because we're all just trying to make this better and bigger and better. So I would just write the biggest, most melodic chorus. And I was always thinking radio accessibility and what would this be like in front of an audience? You know, I'm not doing this for myself to make, make myself happy. It's you're doing it for your fans. So you have to, it's a craft, man. You really have to think it through.
Speaker: Right. By the same token, it's not cut it, wrap it, freeze it kind of songwriting. Obviously you're chasing hit songs in the sense that you want to have them, but you also, you don't want to completely compromise your artistic integrity in the process. You want to write stuff that you think is cool.
Speaker: No, just take the one seed of an idea for the great course and build a great song around it and serve the song. That's what I can say. Well, it's cool. Well, you've done it many times, so kudos to you. And then you came to Vancouver and Little Mountain and you got to work with Bruce Farber. And now Mike Fraser is a good friend of mine and he probably would have been on those sessions because he worked at Bob Rock. He was kicking around at that time. What a golden age, man. What a golden time.
Speaker: Being there at that time was Bruce and Bob Rock Engineering. Cardale was in the studio next door, working on Still in the Night. Very cool. We'd all be hanging out day after day. He's doing his album and ours and I'm like,
Speaker: Am I actually here doing this? It was so damn cool. I loved it.
Speaker: and did a full album and he's still active and working. He's going to retire soon. But that must have been a great thing for you to come out and work with Bruce Fairbourn who already had lots of stuff he was going to do after that as well. He passed away I think in 99.
Speaker: $99 .99, but you were right on the cusp of what he was doing and he already had a pretty good resume when he worked with you guys. Him and Bob Rock. Well, we chose Bruce because we loved to stuff with Loverboy and he approached us and he was just, we had a meeting with him and him and I were very similar in our views of music and Bruce was all about the songs. Yeah. You haven't got anything until those are polished, so I loved working with him.
Speaker: You know, he goes on and he does Bon Jovi and Bob does Metallica, you know, they just explode. When Aerosmith came to Vancouver. Yeah, everybody, man, everybody. And Razor, yeah, I never got to work my... I'd love to record with him, though. That's one guy I've never worked with, but he's great.
Speaker: Well, he's just, you know, he's a good friend of mine. So I'm, you know, a little biased, but I mean, he's just got the perfect sensibility and experience and just the demeanor and just everything. I mean, he's worked with everybody like sitting and talking with him. I mean.
Speaker: He worked with Jimmy Page and all these huge guys, and he's just a guy from Langley, same as me. Tell me about Bruce Fairburn. What was it about him? I've asked a lot of people about him, and he seemed to have this sort of genius mentality for focusing in on what is going to be the best product. Yeah, he's a real enigma, that guy.
Speaker: he would show up to the studio in a beat -up Volkswagen van and his sweatpants on and a Mickey Mouse t -shirt. He's just a mellowest little guy, but he knew how to get what he wanted. He could be very stern in a nice way. The best thing he would do with us and other bands is he would come and do pre -production.
Speaker: He would say, these songs are ready. These three or four are not. You need to go back and rewrite and get them up to snuff because we're not going to go in and spend all this money recording stuff that's not going to be hits. And I love that. So that's what we did. He made us work.
Speaker: Okay. And then a lot of it seems to be an intuitive kind of sense that some of these guys have, right? It's not so much a technical, that's part of it, but it's the art and their sense of that art that rises to the top. Would you agree with that? Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah, a good producer has that intuitive, like you say, a song sense. You're the objective ear because when you're in a band, you're so hyper focused on your own little bubble that you're in writing for your band and your singer that you can't see the forest for the trees sometimes. And a great producer is a good person to have in there to point stuff out that's
Speaker: It's really obvious only you don't see it. It's like, oh, yeah, that's right. Let's move this chorus and put the bridge over here. And now now the song is great. Right. Yeah. And I mean, you know, the first two, three albums, it was real good. And you got to you got the recognition, I guess, in the airplay and and, you know, you're doing the much music videos and stuff and just taking the ride, as they say, as we say in the business. Right.
Speaker: Yeah, well work with a guy like Bruce. He taught me to be a better producer You learn so much from these people. Yeah, and then but he couldn't do the next album No, he couldn't I wanted him to so badly but he was so
Speaker: tied up after that, we probably would have had to wait two years because he had Bon Jovi and then all these other major projects after us. And the label, of course, is like, we've got momentum. We've got to keep going. We've got to get you guys back into the studio. We can't wait two years. As it turns out, Ted Templeman came into the picture because we were with Warner Brothers in LA and Ted was head of A &R down there.
Speaker: One thing led to another and um, couldn't work with bruce, but you know ted temp. Come on Nothing wrong with that man. That was that that's fantastic, too It's just luck Well, you make a fair point about fairburn though because uh, like david foster was in the same position He was daisy chaining projects finishing one to start another one and then just start another one right after that and so much in demand For these guys, especially at that time. Yeah Well, we were lucky, you know, we had a good run. We worked with some amazing people. Yeah
Speaker: No, that's cool. And then so, uh, so you worked with Ted Templeman. I always liked the song looking out for number one, actually in my cover band, we played it. I heard it and I thought, well, we've got to play this song. I love it. Thank you. Yeah. Super cool.
Speaker: So then you're riding the crest, I guess careers go sort of you're climbing, you're right where you need to be and then, you know, things start to change. Of course, at the end of the eighties and stuff and some of the hair bands and I mean, you guys like I often ask my guests about genres and you guys to me.
Speaker: were the ultimate kind of band that I liked because you're heavy, but you're cool, and you're melodic, and you didn't overdose on the 80s sounds. What your thought on that is. I agree. I think our sound is a little bit different. A lot of the LA 80s bands means at the end of the 80s there, it did get so cheesy and so bad. Some of the hair bands and the songs were just
Speaker: They're just trying to be rat. Of course, that all came to a screeching halt when grunge hit and Nirvana, but it had to happen because music goes in cycles. Yeah, for sure. Great bands will persevere and the catalogs will always go forever. We'll always come back if you look at Def Leppard or Journey or Bon Jovi. The great songs will never go away. That's why all those bands have careers.
Speaker: And fortunately, we still have a great career too, because of our string of hits we had, especially in Canada and the Airplay.
Speaker: It's the catalog that sustains us in great songs. Yeah, absolutely. But then I was going to attribute to Fairburn, I guess, and maybe Templeman to a certain extent. Some people just totally overdosed on the 80s, you know, the snare drums that sound like a bomb going off or the reverse cymbals and, you know, Murray McLaughlin. I had Murray McLaughlin on and asked him about it and he said, well, at that point,
Speaker: Their model was, if it's on the rack, it's on the track. And they were using every trick and every stupid sound. And when you listen to something from the 80s, you can recognize it right away. Yeah, it got a little over the top. But you guys didn't, which I appreciated. No, we didn't go. Because I think when the bands are doing that, they're just trying to cover up weak songs with big production.
Speaker: You had lots of influences too, right? Like you talked about the cars, but then the heavier influences, but still melodic, lots of harmonies. I love keyboards, right? Some of the bands like the Judas Priests and that, who did well, weren't keyboard bands, right?
Speaker: Yeah, well, we've always been like when johnny and I were putting the band together johnny said I you know, I have to have keyboards because he loved you know rainbow he liked uh richie blackmore's rainbow and deep purple and emerson lake power He was always a one guitar in a lead guitar player and I want keyboards. I don't want a two guitar band I want keyboards and he was right. I love keyboards because that was a big part of the sound. Absolutely Yeah, we never went over the top that way. I think our sound was
Speaker: uniquely not Canadian, I just think we had our own niche, our own sound. Well, and you had the songs. The songs, true. Because you got to have the songs that people can, because I mean, how many clones are like, I mentioned Judas Priest, but I mean, how many Judas Priest clones were there and Van Halen clones and bands that were kind of okay, but they just didn't quite have the songs.
Speaker: And then you guys have had a few band members in and out, too. I guess that's just the nature of the business. Looking back on it now from an older perspective, how everything went, people in and out of the band. What's the deal with that? What was the internal dynamic like in the band? Well, it was tough at the end of the 80s. I mean, the third record, Racing After Midnight, didn't take off like we wanted it to in the States. It was Ted producing and everything else, just the way it goes.
Speaker: We wrote the best album we could, which is a great album, but we didn't have that big breakthrough huge top 10 single. But, you know, that's nobody's fault. If it's anybody's fault, it's mine. But it's still we persevered on and did well with that record. But then grunge came in.
Speaker: Killed everything about melodic rock, you know all the yellow bands and it hurt it hurt everybody. Yeah, that's true So then grunge took over for 10 years Johnny and I Yeah, the other guys Dave and Gary and Ray they left and things kind of scattered because there was just no there wasn't a lot going on we weren't touring as much but
Speaker: Johnny and I always kept the band together and we would hire some hired guns to go out and play a few shows a year or some tours. That was okay. The whole thing is we're musicians, we don't do anything else. So we kept on playing and there's ups and downs and ups and downs. It was tough, man, but that's what this business is. Fortunately, early 2000s and the last 20 years or so, thank God Melodic Rock has come back.
Speaker: I got tired of having hired guns in the band, although we had great players. They weren't Dave and Gary. They didn't play the songs.
Speaker: the way they were on the album. So we talked to Dave and Gary and Peter Nunn to come back in the band, which they did a long time ago. And now we're pretty much full original band. And I love that because these guys played on the albums. And when we play live, it sounds like the albums. Well, it's great. And I, well, Bernie Albin's a friend of mine and I was talking to him and we were talking about bands and booking and stuff. And he said, he said, almost every day I get a call for Honeymoon Suite, asking to book Honeymoon Suite.
Speaker: Yeah, it's been great. Our business is really... I mean, Bernie is a big part of our success in Canada. I mean, he took us over at a time when we were pretty down, not working much, and he's built us back up to where we want to be, where we should be, and it's really great. We worked really hard for it, and so is he.
Speaker: Yeah, no, good. And you're going out there and playing the hits and doing your thing and he's really stoked on the band. But I mean, his phone rings and we're talking about booking bands and the whole, you know, the classic rock scene, of course, is going to die eventually as the fans die off, I guess, unless you get the younger people to like the songs, which is a factor. But you're the band that he mentioned when I said, how's the scene? And he said, almost every day I get a call from him. Yeah, man.
Speaker: There's no, you know, we're not thinking of stopping we'll stop when when we need to stop when it's not fun anymore but right now it's it's a great time of life and We just this new record people are loving it. So I'm a lifer and Having a great time. Yeah, I'm happy for you, man You got a you got a fan in me and and I just say go for it now Of course Mike Dinger works with you guys. He's a good friend of mine, too. So and
Speaker: He always talks about how much he appreciates you guys and likes touring and stuff. Mike's a real music lover as well.
Speaker: Yeah. Dinger's been a long time. Well, I like to have people that have been with me for a long time. We all know each other. It kind of runs on, you know, everybody does their job really well and it runs really smooth. Well, he's a heart and soul guy too. He loves it. He loves being there. He loves music. He loves musicians. He just loves the whole lifestyle, the whole world, right? That's the kind of guys you want. My manager told me years ago, he said, try to be around people who like music and who like musicians because they're less likely to take advantage of you or mistreat you.
Speaker: Or like Bruce Springsteen says, just hire guys who have nowhere else to go. There you go. No, that's great. I mean, and you guys have done it all. I mean, you toured throughout US and Canada and Europe. How much traction did you get in Europe? In the 80s, we did pretty good. The first tour was with Saga. Okay.
Speaker: For the big prize we went all through Germany and France and Sweden. That was a blast Yeah, and a year or two later. I think we did status quo did a tour over there as well through the UK. Cool Yeah, some festivals not not as much as I'd like to we get over once every couple years to do a festival and I really miss Europe and I'm pushing and
Speaker: our agent there, we need to get over there and play a lot more because there's so many classic rock festivals. It's a shame that we're not playing. Well, the reason I ask that is because in different areas, bands are strong, like Saga is really strong in Europe. Then we played at Casino Regina a few months ago and it was a full house and I was really thankful. We have a guy that plays with us, our guitar player, and he's a big Saga fan. He said that Saga came to Casino Regina and there was only a few hundred people there. He couldn't believe it.
Speaker: Yeah, it's weird, but they're still like huge in Germany. Yeah. Yeah. He said like this band is world -class and draws huge arena type crowds. You know, you see some video. So the reason I asked that is because it just depends where your hotspots are. And so for you guys, your hotspots are Canada, I assume, and then somewhat in the US. Yeah. And we're starting to open up the US market now a little more finally. And I want to play.
Speaker: in the US a lot more. We've got a lot of fans down here. We play. It's great. Well, you do. I just wonder, what would it have taken to break a little bit more in the States? I mean, I guess it's a competition thing too, right? Because when you look at it, like I do a Bob Seger show, for example, and he never had a number one hit until Shakedown in 1987. I couldn't believe it.
Speaker: I mean, Bob Seeger didn't have a number one hit, but he never did because there was so many other bands out there to compete with. Yeah. Well, Bob Seeger is an American. He's an American icon. You know, one of those guys probably wouldn't need a number one hit because I think he toured relentlessly with a major star. So what would it have taken for you to break bigger in the States? I know Ian Thomas said it would have taken money. The record company would have.
Speaker: Money, but like I alluded to earlier, you need that huge song. You give Love a Bad Name to Syke Bon Jovi. You need one of those big breakthroughs, smash rock songs or Round and Round by Rat. The songs that put these bands on the map is a big foot in the door. Those songs go a long way.
Speaker: Well, it I think feel it again was the highest charting one. Okay broke top 30 on Billboard, which is pretty good Yeah, illegal charting new girl now what didn't chart that high but it's it got a lot of airplane Yeah, but then I guess it's also it's got to be a combination punch, right? What have what do you got now? What else you got? What else you got? It's like well, okay work. We're coming up with stuff but
Speaker: to sustain your career forever. We've got some big songs in the states, but not that giant one.
Speaker: Yeah and then so the interesting thing now so you're recording I watch the video tell me what you want that's that all sounds great and it's uh you know I just wondered how you see the music scene now like you know now that you're a bit older and then I often ask people like yourself who's who was successful how much of your success was a function of the time that you lived in.
Speaker: Because you're recording new stuff now and it sounds great. I listen to tell me what you want and the new stuff alive and that and that sounds real good, but it's a different time. It's a different world, right? I don't know. I don't know. It's just just what came out. I mean, we are who we are. We're not trying to sound like anybody else, but this new album is just typical classic honeymoon suite, big melodic chorus rock, but it's also not dated.
Speaker: It's kind of hip sounding and our producer did a great job with making it modern sounding but still classic. I think that each record you do is kind of a snapshot in the time that you made that album. The big prize is so different from the first album. Racing After Midnight is different from the big prize. It's just where we are, where we were at the time where I was with my writing, the people I was working with. This is what I wrote. This is what I came up with at that time.
Speaker: Yeah well yeah the reason i asked that is because obviously when you do new songs they've gotta sound like honeymoon sweet because that's what people want right there what but but then by the same talk and you want to sort of. Break new ground i suppose maybe that's not quite the way to put it but you want something fresh but also sounding like you guys.
Speaker: Yeah, you got to be very cognizant of that because you have these older bands that put out a record and it's just kind of really flat sounding, just average songs trying to sound like they did before.
Speaker: But I think we set our bar a lot higher than that, especially Johnny and our pretty pickies. Johnny's very picky about how he sings, what he sings. At the end of the day, staying true to our sound and delivering the best song we can. And what about the guitar playing too? I noticed you do the hybrid picking, which I really like. My guitar teacher taught me that, where you got the pick and you still do the jazz thing where you pluck the strings too, right? That works really cool.
Speaker: Oh, you mean picking fingers? Yeah. Oh, where am I doing that? I wonder. I don't know. You were there. I watched the in the video. I saw you doing it because you were plucking the strings to get that. Oh, and tell me what you want. Yeah. Yes. Yes, of course. That's what you call hybrid. Yes, I do.
Speaker: I do the fingers because if you listen to that verse, it's a very clean picky, very clean verse. Yeah. And you pick those chords. It's not the same as turning. So again, it comes down to serving the song. This is what needed to be done there.
Speaker: Yeah, no, it sounded cool. But then, so guitar playing, I was going to ask you about that too, because you came up in the 80s, right? You know, the whammy and the dive bombs and the tapping and the pinch harmonics and the Eddie Shreddy stuff, right? And you don't, you never overdosed on that stuff. So you didn't have to pull back on it a little bit, but some guys were just, that's all they do.
Speaker: Yeah, well, yeah, I got a little silly. I love tapping. I love what Eddie did. It was just fun to do. But what he can play like Eddie, nobody ever will. So again, I borrow elements from him if it's a tapping thing and it's done tastefully.
Speaker: And you're mixing it with some longer notes, just making a, constructing a good, so long as it's done tastefully and it's not over the top and it fits, then, you know, that's my style. I play like me. So, you know, it's good. It worked. It works well for you. And you didn't go into the shredding thing, but I just, I think, you know, what happened in the eighties, there was all the Eddie clones were out there. I just.
Speaker: You know tap wizards just doing their tap thing and then the shredders were out there just and everyone's got sort of tired of it I noticed that people were just kind of looking away going yeah, it's silly that stuff actually bores me like the shredders and the arpeggio guys and that it's amazing but it like okay, it's kind of
Speaker: Boring to me. The technique is amazing. I could never do that. But to me, that's not me. You know, a solo. It's not a thousand notes. Well, and the sweep picking and all that. You know, it's cool and everything. You look at it and I practice that stuff. I try and pick that stuff up because it's good practice. But that's not my style. Well, I went I had a guitar lesson one time and the guy said to me, he said to me, tell me a story with your guitar. OK.
Speaker: Tell me a story with my guitar. Yeah, like David Gilmour. Tell me a story. That's what he does. Yeah. It's all in the hands, man. Every guitar player touches a guitar differently. Yeah, that's right. It's your hands that make the sound. I honestly believe that. That's where the heart and soul of the plane comes out. Not the pedals or the amps or even the guitar. You can give me any guitar. I'm going to still sound like me.
Speaker: Yeah, no, that's right. And your job as a musician, which everyone understands that a true musician is to breathe life into this inanimate object. It's got some strings on it. It's a piece of wood. You got to breathe musical life into that. So however you want to do that, you just go ahead and do it. So with your, with your music career, did you reach the level of success that you wanted? Like when you first started out, you said, I want to be, and then fill in the blank. Did you get there? I did, of course, in one respect.
Speaker: I'm still making a living in the business and doing this my whole life. I own a house and I've raised my kids. So just to say that you've made a living in music, that's a hard thing right there to do it. So yes, to me, that is success right there. And to be a songwriter and make some money off of that, that's a dream come true. The level? No.
Speaker: I wish we would have gotten to a higher level. Of course, who doesn't want more money in a bigger house? But that's not the main focus. So what would you do differently if you could do it again? I would like I alluded to earlier, I wish we could have worked with Bruce Fairburn on the third album. OK. Nothing against Ted. It's just that I knew that Bruce would have done a great job on the third album. But that's just the business. I wish that had happened.
Speaker: But who knows? You can't look in the rear view mirror. Maybe it wouldn't have worked at all. You can't dwell on that. You just got to move ahead. And what was the business stuff like? Do you ever get taken advantage of? Do you ever get into stuff you wish you'd had done differently, managers, record deals? Well, yeah, of course. We had a very greedy manager and some bad deals. Every band can tell you that story.
Speaker: success came fast and the money came fast and I did okay because I wrote all the songs but it's later on when things start to fall apart you find out the kind of shitty deals that you signed and now the manager wants all his money and you know that whole nightmare but every pen can say that but you know what
Speaker: He took us from nobodies to a major band. So you have to look at the upside of it. You did, you know, you did have success. So it's a nasty business. Well, I guess that's right. I mean, it's an exploitative business by nature. And, you know, you're my boy. You get up on the stage, you write some songs, you do what you need to do. And the suits are going to take some of the money. But my old manager used to say 100 percent of nothing is nothing.
Speaker: Well, when you're young and you're hungry and you get a chance to sign a record deal, no kid is going to say no to that. So it's partly the band's fault too, but you live and learn. And now where I'm at now, I just know so much more and I'm at ease with it. And you're a happy, happy guy.
Speaker: Well, I'm smarter now. I know business. But again, that's everybody. Like you said, look what happened to Leonard Cohen, even Elton John, Billy Joel. The list goes on and on. What happened to those guys? Well, just taken advantage of by the manager. I think with Leonard Cohen, I think his manager took all his money and left.
Speaker: Oh yeah, yeah. So Billy Joel had to get his deal rewritten, but once you have some clout and some smarts and you're not in your twenties anymore, you start pushing back and going, well, wait a second, you know, I'm not, I'm not an idiot. I need to, and you make a better deal for yourself. But the thing is, is that some people end up bitter and other people are pretty happy and resolute with what happened. And I just, I usually ask people where they're at with it and it sounds like you're okay with it.
Speaker: Well, I was bitter, you know, bitter at first, but then I realized this is, you know, I, I, you know, it's my bed. I slept in it. And this is, you know, I got something out of it. Yes. These are shitty deals. And there was some bad, some bad, you know, things going on with the lawyers and that, but every band was going through it. And I can't dwell on that, man. I just keep moving on. So I'm good.
Speaker: So let me ask you about songwriting. Did you ever put any messages in your music, like any social, political messages or anything? Or was it just good fun, good time music? No, man. We weren't that kind of band. We weren't U2. They're on a whole different level. That's not our brand. We got a little deeper on the Monsters Under the Bed record.
Speaker: which is our last album for Warner's, which was a great album, but nobody ever, it didn't do very well because it was at the end of the eighties. We had some really great songs on there and we stretched a bit and the subject matter was a little deeper. Overall, it wasn't like the early stuff.
Speaker: Again, I talked about the snapshot in time. That was the record we made. That's what we were writing. Well, I always ask about that because some bands, like I saw the guy from KC and the Sunshine Band, he said, we just wanted happy, fun songs. All our songs are very, very similar because they're just party songs, fun songs. Other songs like you alluded to YouTube, but there's lots of other bands that they want to have some political or social message in their music. It's like, okay, that works for Bruce Coburn.
Speaker: No, that's not me. That's not us. That's not my style. And then what do you think about, there's a lot of professional songwriters out there now. It's sort of like songwriting factories, I guess, where you got teams of people just coming up with hooks and stuff. And then of course, AI is going to affect songwriting too. What's your whole take on the songwriting business these days?
Speaker: Oh, it's kind of bizarre. We were in the studio last week. We're starting to write new stuff with our producer, Mike. And he brings up these plugins and these programs now where they write the top line for you. It writes the melody. It writes the background part. And it can even write the lyrics for you. And it's pretty weird. But I don't think there's any substitute for human beings.
Speaker: The other thing you asked about is when I see these pop artists with eight or ten songwriters on one track. Because there's a track guy, there's a beat guy, a hip -hop guy. That's ridiculous.
Speaker: Well, I just, I mean, everything's morphing. I guess that's just the way that humanity works. But I'm just wondering about the, the AI thing gets me and that, well, the songwriting teams as well, but the AI thing, especially because if, if computers can generate songs and the consumers like the songs, they're not going to care. Like if you try to make a case, well, you know, it's AI generated. They're going to go, well, I don't, I don't care. I like the song.
Speaker: Yeah, I don't know where that's going to go. I mean, I can see it being successful in pop music because this pop music is just disposable kind of fluff a lot of it. It doesn't really say anything. It's only there for kids
Speaker: you know, for the kids to dance to and there's really no message in it. It's just pop. And that's the, that genre. So I guess my, the thrust of my question is, are we at the end of an, are we going from horse and buggy to supersonic jets here in the next two to five years? No, no, there's no substitute for human beings, human emotion, and two people in a room writing a great song. I don't think any machine will ever be able to,
Speaker: I agree with that. I'm just not sure if that's going to be the case though. I don't know. Let's hope not. I hope I'm with you on that. So no, I just wanted to ask you about that because guys that are professional songwriters and have made a living, I think that era is passing us by fairly quickly here. And I know there's a lot of professional songwriters out there, but I'm not sure what the future holds for them.
Speaker: Well, it'd be quite tough for starting out as a songwriter now. I don't know. I mean, I see this with my daughter, Leah. She's at the beginning of her career and she's a great songwriter.
Speaker: It's just a day -to -day thing. Who knows what's going to happen? You've got your craft, just keep working at it. Well, do you think, again, I asked about the function of the time. Do you think there could ever be another Beatles? Part of the Beatles' mystique and magic was the fact that they were in the 60s and they were cutting new ground, right? Yeah, and there wasn't nine million bands and nine million songs on Spotify.
Speaker: much clearer field back then, whole different business. Yeah, you got a good point and other Beatles know, and there's not even any new real rock bands that really catch my ear, you know, so far. So I don't know. Yeah, I got one buddy who loves the struts. He thinks they're the bomb now. Yeah. Well, they're kind of cool. I know a little bit about them. They're good because they're a real rock band. Yeah.
Speaker: Down and dirty. And they rock. Old school. Yeah, for sure. And again, that seems to be coming back if you look at Greta Van Fleet or some of those bands that are just in even Black Roses out touring again, just down and dirty, gritty kind of real rock bands. Yeah. Well, Greta is, you know, I have such mixed feelings about that. I just can't wrap my head around it.
Speaker: There's only one Led Zeppelin. I guess the kids like it because they don't know Led Zeppelin. They just like that sound, but if they realize where it came from... But I guess it's for a new generation, right? Yeah, but it's too close to Zeppelin. Fair enough. Guy's an amazing singer, but it's too close.
Speaker: Hopefully they'll get their own sound eventually, but that's just my opinion, right?
Speaker: Well, I guess, I mean, the ultimate determiner is the consumer, right? I mean, the consumer is 100 % expert in what they like and that works for you sometimes and against you sometimes. Yeah, of course. I can see why it's big because it's a great, it worked for Zeppelin. So why not do it again? And kids are discovering it. Like when I was 13 or 14 and listening to Zeppelin, you know, it was amazing. Yeah. So these kids got that same vibe off of this band, but they don't realize that it's so close to
Speaker: what's been done before, but they don't know that. Yeah. So your daughter, what's your daughter's professional name? Her name is Leah Marlene. Leah Marlene. And what's the path you're forging for her? She's a singer -songwriter. She's 22. And she's been singing and writing since she was a little girl and playing around. And she got a really big break about two years ago. She was on American Idol. Nice.
Speaker: and finished in the top three in third place. So she went all the way to the end and that was a tremendous boost for her career. So now it kind of launched it and she's in Nashville now and working on writing and putting albums up, working on her little young career. So she's doing very well.
Speaker: Good. Well, because I know Bruce Allen was talking. I was listening to an interview with him and he said, especially in country music, it's just song driven. You just got to come up with that song and deal. Oh, that's her. That's, that's that girl. That's, that's the one. So is that kind of your focus? I mean, an album's nice and everything, but that's that defining song, like what you guys have with New Girl now. You don't, you just have to say those three words and everybody knows exactly who it is. Every.
Speaker: artist, new artist, country, rock, whatever, they need that breakthrough single. I'm pushing Leah to, she's just going to keep writing. She doesn't really care about that. She's going to write the best songs that she can, but a hit single is a hit single. Yeah, fair enough. Fair point. That can open, that can blow your career wide open.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And that's a funny thing because a couple of people have asked me, I sort of took a different route because I got into the show bands and I do tributes and stuff now, but I've made a really good living in a similar path. You know, I've got a family and bought a house and did the whole thing. So I'm very thankful it was all off of music. But when you're, you're, you're forging your own path and that's, I guess that's the important part of it. You've got to find your way up the mountain. That's what everybody's trying to do. And not everybody's path is the same. No.
Speaker: No, it isn't. It's a much different path today for these kids. Well, songwriting producing, I guess, whatever, right? Well, there's just everybody and his mother can make a record now. Everybody can record at home.
Speaker: Hard to rise above the noise when you got 10 million songs on Spotify. There's so much more out there now. Hard to cut through that. So that's a point that I've made on many of the podcasts is that there used to be gatekeepers. So you had to go to a gatekeeper, whoever, you have to go to the record company, get the record deal. There's a gatekeeper that's going to... Now there's no gatekeepers, but now it's saturation point. Do you think that there's just...
Speaker: Yeah, that's the word, saturation. Yes, gatekeepers. Back in the good days, like the 80s, you worked hard, you got some A &R guys out, you got signed, you made your record, you did your video, and there wasn't nine million bands out there.
Speaker: you know, a good, good, healthy competition. Now it's saturation. Yeah. So, so that's the different challenge, I guess, to cut through that. That's the way I always looked at it. Like, like, I always looked at it like the music business owes you zero, always start from that premise. It owes you nothing and then go find where you need to find where, where the money is, where your success is going to be. Some people like, like Eddie Schwartz, you know, when I talked to him and he, I think he lives in Nashville now as well.
Speaker: Yeah. And he and I talk all the time. Oh, good. Well, he was a great guest to have on the, on the show. And he basically said, you know, he wrote hit me with your best shot for himself. And then Pat Benatar recorded it. So he morphed into, cause he said, I'm never going to compete with that. She was so good. He morphed into being a songwriter and it served him well. Yeah, exactly. So that was his path that kind of directed him just because he had some songs that people seem to like and other, other artists recorded.
Speaker: Yeah, the paths people take with the way they start out and the way they end up can be two different things. You never know, it's a wacky business. So what are some of your most memorable experiences, some of the bands? I mean, you toured with lots of bands, right? I mean, you must have pinched yourself at times, good touring with ZZ Top and all these great bands that you ended up going out hard and all these bands that you went out with. What was some of your best experiences?
Speaker: Well, all of it. I mean, in the early days, we were a Northern Ontario bar band for the first couple of years. Yeah. And Johnny getting the other guys together, playing cover songs, demoing on the weekends. And then we won the Q107 New Girl Now and got our deal. So six months later, we had our album out and we're on a tour bus touring America.
Speaker: And then came, you know, really idle and journey and heart and on and on, one thing after the other. It was amazing. All those were great moments. But for me growing up to be touring and watching Billy Gibbons and being that close and
Speaker: some Billy Idol shows like Steve Stevens, like these guys that I loved. Here I'm like hanging out side stage Washington play as a guitar guy. That's cool. Well, in the 80s, like when ZZ Top released The Lemonator and stuff, I mean, they were one of the top bands of the world. They had huge production and big shows, right?
Speaker: Yeah, that's when we were out with them. It was, yeah, they had all that. We got on some great tours. Did they have the moving sidewalks and the spinning guitars and the fuzzy guitars and all that stuff? They had a stage that looked like a dashboard of a car. Wow. Yeah, the fuzzy guitars. Yeah, they had a lot of goofy stuff going on, but that's their stick, you know. Yeah. And the audiences were good to you guys?
Speaker: Yeah, for the most part, they were really receptive. There were some shitty nights, but to be expected.
Speaker: Yeah, I know my buddy was in a band and they got to open for Megadeth and they said people were spitting on them and fingering them and everything. No, fortunately, that's metal. We never had to do the metal thing, you know? Okay, yeah. But one night we opened for Ted Nugent in Detroit on New Year's Eve.
Speaker: Ted's crowd was a bunch of idiots and animals. So we were playing and we got booed off halfway through the set, you know, because they wanted Ted Nugent. But that's fine. We played the three or four songs and got off stage, got paid.
Speaker: Ted came in the change room after and he goes, Hey guys, I'm really sorry about that man. But most half of my crowd, they're on parole for the weekend. I mean, he apologized to the nice, fair enough. Yeah. I mean, and you got a crowd that's all stoked up. That's why I wonder, because when you're doing opening slots, it's great if the crowd is receptive and you got good tunes. You guys are good players. You're the real deal. So you don't have to apologize for anything there, but it's just, they're, they're, they're all jacked up.
Speaker: Well, it's a matter of getting on the right package, the right bill. Yeah, fair enough. The right target audience. So how was Jethro Tull then? How did that fit? Really great, surprisingly enough. And we had our reservations going into it because what's this young kind of pop like melodic rock band opening for this old, you know, prog rock British band.
Speaker: Really odd pairing, but we did it. The building was only half full when we were playing, but we were having it. They did really well. Ian Anderson and Martin, they're all just great guys. Oh, good. Well, that's good to hear. And of course, the audience would be a little more cerebral and a little bit more, I don't know, genteel, I guess, at a Jethro Tull concert than a Ted Nugent concert. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
Speaker: Oh, that's funny. Well, good. Well, I know I appreciate you shared all these stories with me. And so what's, what's left for you to do? You got a bucket list or you're just going to keep on keeping on.
Speaker: Just get up every day and make music, man. That's what makes me happy. I love touring. I still love writing and recording. I get to do, over the course of a year, get to that whole cycle of moving from one thing to the other. I'm working with, like I said, Leah. I'm helping her with her career. I've got a solo album coming up.
Speaker: in a month or two. My first guitar album, it's all guitar vocals, so I'm working on getting that finished up. Then we've started writing for another Honeymoon Suite record. Every day there's new things for me to do and projects and other things. Good for you. Yeah. Yeah, good for you and your touring. We'll start out pretty soon and then the summer is crazy. It's back and forth all over the country and some US stuff.
Speaker: How many dates are you going to do this year with Honeymoon Suite? I don't know. We don't do as many as you think we do. We'll probably only do 40, 45 shows a year. Well, that's still, that's a respectable number. I mean, you're not touring, right? And when you're touring, you just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. Yeah, that's weekend stuff. But if I had my way, I'd like to do 200 shows a year, but you have to be on longer tours. We are doing a Canadian tour in November for about 12,
Speaker: 12 shows and that's going to be a tour consistent right across the country. You guys are as popular as ever in some respects because the baby boomers and the people that loved your music originally are still out there and still want to hear it so I'm one of those guys.
Speaker: I know. And that's a great thing. Thank you. And we're making some, you know, some younger fans too. That's awesome. Well, good. Well, thanks for sharing all that with me. I really, really wanted to talk to you and finally getting you on the podcast has been a real thrill for me. So I appreciate it. No problem, Dan. Good talking to you.
Speaker: Many thanks to Daria Grayen for being part of the Lantern Oats podcast and sharing some insights from his musical adventures and accomplishments. More information, of course, is available at honeymoonsweetband .com and Daria's active on Facebook as well, so give him some support. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well. And we also invite you to listen to Dusty Discs Radio Tuesdays and Thursdays to hear music from the Canadian artists you're hearing on this show. So until next time, I'm Dan Herron.
