Transcript
Speaker: Hi it's Dan here and I wanted to let you know that this is a very special episode of the show. Some glimpses from my chats with four previous guests. You'll hear about 10 minutes of each guest's 60 plus minute conversation which will give you a small idea of the many topics that we covered. Also you can listen to the entire conversation at either linernotes .ca or on any podcast platforms. Just search for liner notes revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Enjoy. Today, I'm very honored to have as my special guest, a true Canadian legend and singer extraordinaire, Sylvia Tyson. People talk about music keeping you young. Do you think that's true in your case? Well, somebody once asked Willie Nelson if he ever thought of retiring. And he said, all I do is play golf and play music. What do you want me to give up? Yeah, there you go. yeah I think it's ah yeah it's an inspiration. And I kind of think the same way. There's nothing to retire from. You just do what you do. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker: The curious thing that I that i always ask about is is is your impression of how it went. So for example, you moved from from your small town, I guess you were from Chatham, you moved to Toronto and you you kind of had a plan, but then I always like to ask people, well, how much of it was the plan and how much of it sort of happened? Well, I think both things are true. I mean, when I i left Chatham, ah you know, my parents were actually rather enlightened for the day because they they said, Well, if it doesn't work out, you can always come home and get married. so But so the was I knew I was moving to Toronto to be a folk singer. Yeah. And then the happenstance takes place, I guess. You just meet people and you just kind of find your way. Well, I had met Ian before I moved, actually, through friends, ah um kind of a complicated thing. His boss was the second ex -husband of my first landlady in Toronto.
Speaker: And she introduced us, and he said, oh, I have this guy working for me that plays guitar and sings. Well, I think Ian had been looking for a partner. He had done some work with Don Franks early on, more in in the jazz blues field. But I think he was looking for a female partner, not a romantic partner, but just a musical partner at that point. Yeah and and you happen to be there and and and compatible I guess is what I'm saying is that there has to be a connection. And I had up a whole raft of material that that he was unfamiliar with and so we started swapping song ideas and he became quite interested in my interest in Appalachian and and
Speaker: English ah folk music. Nice. Yeah, and and you brought a lot to the table, too. And you and you you went on, you wrote, yeah you were on my mind, so you were... Yes, that was the first song I ever wrote. Actually, the first song you ever wrote was was Four Strong Winds. Crazy. Wow. And my first song was You Were on My Mind. and then it was recorded by We Five. Now your version is a lot higher, like you sing it in C, I think they sing it in E, like theirs is quite a bit... Well, I don't sing it in C anymore. My voice has gotten a lot deeper. But um but their version, the female voice was quite low in it, but it it works for them. ah which i i Yes, and they did change the lyrics, but I totally understood why they changed the lyrics, because radio at that point in the early 60s
Speaker: didn't use words like drunk and sick in songs. Right. Okay. Yeah. But then you said you didn't even know they recorded it. You you heard it by accident. Is that right? we We were, Ian and I were playing in California, Southern California, and we were driving up the Pacific coast highway to Vancouver. And it came on the radio. We almost drove off the road. Unbelievable. Wow. So, I mean, you were happy about that. Obviously any songwriter who gets their song picked up and it becomes a hit is is all almost always happy about it. Oh yeah. I was, I was delighted and it did very well for them, of course. I think it was probably the only hit they had. I, I seem to recall.
Speaker: Yeah. So the one -hit wonder, but it certainly worked out for you, too. And of course, it's a really super familiar song, and everybody loves it. so it's Well, it's been paying the rent for many years now. Well, I'm happy to hear that. I mean, it's it's like like I said, you know you when you look at some artists, I mean, writing one hit song is a monumental challenge, and you've got some artists that that have written 20. But that that's just really, really hard to do. It it was ah a big European hit, too. A translation was done. and I mean, I still get royalties from Italy oh wow for that. yeah It's quite quite astonishing. There was a group called out of Spain called Los Barracudas who recorded it. yeah um Yoho Anmentite was the translation. yeah
Speaker: wow Oh, isn't that neat? Well, that's cool. That's rather fortuitous. I mean, you though those things, again, you don't know kidding you don't plan those things. They just kind of happen and you go, okay. And I'm very thankful to the the Italian translator who did did the lyrics. Yeah. Oh, very nice. Because he seems to be very aggressive on behalf of the copyright. The curious thing to me is that back in those days, a lot of people got exploited and some people even signed away their song rights. So it's curious, you met Ian, you started working together, you were a folk duo, and then and then you got a record deal. So but I was curious about, like you went to the States, you went to New York, like you were right involved in that whole scene, and how did ja end up with a record how did you end up with a record deal? That wasn't even easy to do back then, right? I mean, it not everybody got there. Well, again, that's as I say, we had a a manager, Albert Grossman. he he did ah we We went with Vanguard Records. He didn't want us to go with Vanguard. He wanted a more commercial label. No.
Speaker: But Vanguard was was the folk label at that point. Joan Baez, of course, was on. Right. OK. And so you got a sort of a, ah you know, it wasn't one of the majors, I guess, is the way you'd put it, right? But it got you in the door? No. Up to that point, Vanguard had done mainly classical music. OK. And then you sort of semi relocated to New York. Is that correct? You lived there for a bit? Yes, I still have an apartment there. But you you maintained your Canadian status? Oh, absolutely. Yes. The one of the difficulties, of course, was that there wasn't that much work here. ah You know, there were maybe half a dozen universities you could play and then you had to wait another two or three years before they'd hire you again. Yeah. And there were clubs, but they were pretty small and few few and far between at that point. So work in the States was inevitable. I got you just ah to to pay the bills and sort of build your career up, I guess, too, right?
Speaker: Yes, absolutely. And of course, the U .S. is an enormous market. Even a moderately successful artist does very well in in the U .S. Right. And yeah, and of course, as you are well aware, this is the ultimate sink or swim business, right? You either find a way and do it or you sit at home and do nothing. Well, there's that, yes. Or get a job. So, yeah. Never occurred to me. Yeah. Well, you obviously, you worked though, you paid your dues. I mean, you you traveled around and toured lots, right? Oh yes, constantly. We we were signed with ah an agency in in the states that handled all of the Kingston Trios concerts and they had a map in their lobby that had a red pin for every college and university in North America and it was a mass of red pins. So they started booking us into ah colleges and universities. Yeah. So how many of those do you think you did? Was it a thousand? Oh, I have no idea. It was endless. Crazy. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. So, so did you ever get that sense of, I mean, I toured somewhat, but I just, you get lost on the road sometimes. It's like an alternate reality. Didn't you find that? The thing about being on the road is you don't even think about days of the week. Yeah. You know, you just think about the length of time you're going to be on the road. Right. We did a lot of driving in those days and, yeah and, and a lot of flying afterward.
Speaker: And then I'm always curious about how you mix the personal with the the business, you know, that's the other part of it, the dynamic of of having a personal relationship and a business relationship too. Did you have some difficulties with that? Well, uh, at the point when we, we had full bands, I i can recall, uh, you know, having some ah new band member come in and I would say to them, uh, If you and I get into an argument about an arrangement, don't get involved. It's not about music. Right. Yeah. But you guys, it sounds like, like when when I talked to Susan, I had her on before she passed, but she didn't pull any punches about how she felt. She wasn't treated properly as as a woman and as a partner, ah both personally and professionally. But it sounds like you had - That was never a problem for me. I was always able to speak up for myself. Yeah, good. Well, it sounds like it was more equitable. Yes. Yeah. But I mean, it definitely was a partnership. No, I'm i'm happy to hear that because I mean, you know, those days were the the days of, you know, the broads and the dames and, and mistreating and and condescending to women and stuff in a lot of cases. And, and Susan had that, she felt that.
Speaker: I'm sorry that she ah she went through that. I did not have that problem. Okay. Oh, good. Well, i'm I'm happy to hear that, but you still have the dynamic of of a personal and a business situation. So it's, you yeah yeah. And how did that play out? Did you just sort of manage that along with everything else? Yeah. Well, it you take it a day at a time, you know, and actually having the the musical partnership in some ways took pressure off the personal relationship. Yeah. Because, as as as I say, you know if we had disagreements about music, we could blow off steam there. I can see from your history and looking into it as I have, you wanted to be more than just ah a face and a voice. You played guitar, you played auto harp, you sang, you wrote songs. You had a point of view. You wanted to be taken seriously. Absolutely. As as every performer does, of course.
Speaker: Today, I'm very happy to have as my special guest, Arrow star Francis, a multi -faceted talent who's been a very successful musician. With over 35 years in the music business, he's been both out front on stage and behind the audio board as an engineer producer, recording a variety of projects for artists. And Arrow is a multi -award winner for radio and television broadcast production, as well as a Juno award -winning singer -songwriter and a So Can Songwriter of the Year recipient in the 1980s. So you were born in Jamaica and you made your way to Toronto with your family, I assume, and then ended up in Hamilton? Yeah, born in Jamaica. We migrated to England and spent some time there. um And then my dad was looking for a brighter future and he he had an opportunity to come to Canada to um do some spot welding and and things like that. So he came over first and then three months or so later, the whole five family came over on the ship.
Speaker: And that was fantastic. I had my birthday on the ship and it was one of those crazy times, but very, very memorable. You know, yeah it just, you know, itched a um a whole vibe in my mind and heart. Yeah. Yeah. That's ah ah a nice success story. and And you find yourself in Canada and your dad, I guess, was a musician. So it says here that he played in a reggae band. And so you had that vibe and that feel from from birth, I guess. absolutely Absolutely. Well, our house was completely musical because he played um and and we always had music playing anyways. My mother was a singer and yeah um you know my grandparents here had a church and the choir was always around. So it was it was a lot of um a lot of music going on in our house. And of course, a lot of it was Reggae and Bob Marley and Peter Tosh and and that. and
Speaker: And then you know my dad started a band in Kitchener Waterloo. That's where we were living at the time when we moved from England. We lived in Kitchener. And then um you know halfway through his his band, he was looking for a guitar player. And I had just started playing guitar. I think I was about 14 years old. And he had bought me a Gibson melody maker, which was like at the time. yeah I didn't know what it was, but it was was a guitar. It was good. Yeah, it was good. And and he brought me um a little amp and I started playing away you know in the basement, doing my thing and trying to figure it out, bought books. And and one day he walked by and he heard me playing. I think I was playing something like Stairway to Heaven or something. And he goes, wow, you're really good. You want to join a band?
Speaker: i said We joined your band? Oh, sure. because I mean, I've heard music already, right? So it was already ingrained in me. So you know catching up with Bob Marley or you know Peter Tosh or you know any reggae vibes that was happening, it was it was already ingrained in me. So it was easy to pick up. That was the beginning of me um doing it. The reggae band was doing really well. It was you know Kitchen of Waterloo's kind of top band. and But that hair area, Kitchen of Waterloo, was kind of a hub for um Caribbean um migrants that came from either the Caribbean directly or via England. yeah And it was supposed to be a lot of people, and they really started to be a community of people there.
Speaker: and which started ah multiple things such as their own club and things like that. So yeah it was a really good place to to grow up and to hone my music skills. We played R and &B and soca and funk and it was all of that stuff and I got to learn how to play all of it. But then you know I'd come home at night and I'd turn on you know Robin Trower. or a foot in cold waters. and you know So it's a whole, you know growing up was like, okay, it's a Rigged Band funk over here. And then over here was like this you know rock and you know almost smoking. I mean, I was listening to Anne Murray. And Cat Stevens. Yeah, absolutely. yeah
Speaker: Yeah. So it was it was quite a plethora of music that was was surrounded by. So I was really enjoying that um growing up. But don't you think also the multi -influence makes us all better? and you know just Absolutely. Absolutely. It widens your scope. you know And which is great for me because when I you know started to do more um stuff behind the scenes like on the console and and producing and stuff like that, it gave me ah quite a range to draw from yeah um in terms of feels and in terms of sonic placement and things like that. So it was great. Yeah. Well, that's what I notice about you. You've got that smooth sort of rich voice and you're comfortable with various types of music and feels, which is
Speaker: extremely important. And especially, like you said, when you're producing someone else, you got to get the vibe of what they're doing more. It's more than just the scales, right? I mean, any of us that We understand, right? it's It's not just the notes and the scales. It's the vibe that really... Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And we... you know Again, early in my high school years when... yeah I'm still in my dad's band, but you know we're still in high school, right? Yeah. I had to go get a ah note from the LCBO to be able to play in the band.
Speaker: Oh, wow. so I was so young. yeah It was like, okay, how do we do this with a liquor control board, blah, blah, blah. I had to go get a note from them so I could play. Then I started a band in in school and high school, and that was my first real band um as a Well, um it was my band so it was called phase at that time and you know, we just played high schools we played small clubs um And we did everything from um Led Zeppelin kiss Crete's Clearwater revival and just really amazing stuff the Eagles man dooby brothers, you know, you name it and We had a way to go from club to um theaters to ah high schools. I mean, high schools were huge back in the day. And you got a chance to play almost every night if you could, right? um And that really honed the band. That really got you together and and really tight. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker: You know, I really relish those times because it really showed what the band was all about. You really got to gel, you got to know each other, you got to really make things click. Nowadays it's more, you know, it's it's it's tougher because everybody's got their own deal and maybe they're jobbing two gigs. Yeah. And there are a lot of gigs or one -offs. Like for us, you know, you have a bad night, then you go back the next night and you and you get your positive energy back and you go up there and you make it better. And those are the things that hone your skill and make you get you to get back on the horse. You know, we've all had bad nights or nights when your throat isn't right or whatever, but you that's part of paying your dues, right? It is. And learning about how your body works with this stuff. Your name was spelled with two L's. Arrow was two L's and it's one L now. Why why is that? You dropped an L. Well, the that's my original spelling of the name Errol with one L. just you know I'm into things like numerology and right um metaphysics and things like that. So when we changed the name Errol Star to Errol Star, adding the one L changed the vibration of the name.
Speaker: Okay. i just put it I'll put it that way. Okay. yeah yeah I was just curious because sometimes you know there's been stories where somebody misspells a name and they just leave it or something. Yeah. No, it's not it wasn't that at all. It was yeah it was done on purpose to keep my original intention of me moving forward and and adopting this this other name. as a stage persona, okay but I still wanted it to be my vibration, not something outside of me, but coming from within me. Obviously, we're getting more influenced by other groups. The one night, the band, we went to see Kiss. They came to Kitchener. and okay and and That turned my head inside out when I saw that. because i mean it became It's not just a band that goes up and plays. It's an entertainment, right? Yeah. They were entertained. They had a whole thing going on. Yeah. You know, the makeup and all that stuff was, it was, you know, at the time was like, whoa, but yeah that's not me, but still it's like they came and just gave it. Right. Yeah. And
Speaker: We took a note out of that book and we went look at if we're gonna go on stage we're not gonna go up with you know just ripped jeans and a jean jacket and you know look like the regular bands that's fine. Let's get up and do something that's like. ah Of course we went into the glam ah era right. That's okay. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. i love and And, and, um, and we went off to Toronto and got these high boots. We went and got some velvet stuff and, you know, and we went and bought dry ice machine and the smoke machine. And we had this incredible genius of a lighting guy that created, you know, incredible lighting structures and things. And then we did the battle of the bands in kitchen, Waterloo, and we brought it all of this stuff. And we were disqualified for being too professional.
Speaker: Oh, wow. So they wanted amateur bands and you you didn't come across as enough of an amateur? No, we weren't amateur enough. It was okay. We went, okay, yeah. We'll take that. yeah That's fine. We were playing at a high school one night and I was scouted by this other group called Harbinger. They were a Toronto band and they've been around for a while. They were looking for a lead singer and they came out to this high school. We're playing in downtown in Toronto and they made me an offer that I you wanted to take up. and And so I joined Harbinger and basically reconstructed the live show because again, I needed to have a show, not just a series of songs. And so we went into rehearsal for, I don't know, but four or five weeks and we came out of that. And at the time the band was, I think we're probably making
Speaker: you know, maybe it was 700 bucks a night. We got it. I got the band up to $3 ,000 a night. nice yeah just Just because we changed the whole format of the show yeah and really wanted to do a presentation. and And everybody in the band was involved in it. I mean, I was a elite singer, but we had other singers that were great singers, Spatch, Mahal, You know, we had great singers that that could put it put it out there as well. So we all, and I played guitar as well. So not ah every time I would just be the front person, I would play guitar and and and jump in there and do that too. So yeah it was a really amazing band to to work with. And we really gained a lot of notoriety in the whole Toronto and surrounding area scene really fast.
Speaker: Today I'm very honored to have as my special guest a true Canadian legend and guitarist extraordinaire, Leona Boyd. Often referred to as the First Lady of Guitar, she's a five -time Juno Award winner who has enthralled millions with her romantic and unique brand of classical folk and world music. It's not very often I get to speak with someone who's literally been everywhere and done everything. I must say I went through your website and, man, you've lived 10 lives, I think. Yes. So yeah, I'm very lucky, very privileged that music has taken me everywhere in the world, just about. A lot of traveling, I used to write. Well, I've written a couple of books and I'd write to fans, spend you know the time on planes, thinking of a new ideas, sometimes getting a melody.
Speaker: I was so busy in the classical world playing with symphonies, writing purely classical repertoire. um Even when I toured with Gordon Lightfoot, we did like hundred shows together. i was playing classical pieces and the audience has lapped it up. It was in the 70s. I wanted to be an operate classical guitarist and I got to the top somehow. I was the only woman signed to a major label in the world. And they kept kept me so busy with TV specials and different international tours. But then I took a sabbatical in Vancouver and then
Speaker: um I had this thing called vocal dystonia, which has just really affected one finger. I took a ah breather and during that time I thought, well, I and don't want to give up the guitar, but why don't I try and sing? I always won little poetry awards and always loved writing and the written words. so It opened up something wonderful. and I've done about six albums with vocals. Yeah, very nice. I started winning competitions. One thing led to another. I got scholarships and I started with so many of the world's greatest guitarists. I spent two years in France, starting with La Goya. We had a very active guitar scene here in Toronto. And so I got to play for everybody. There was anybody in the classical world, including Segovia, gave me advice and some private coaching. I mean, right now,
Speaker: There were so many guitarists graduating every year from different universities, and I feel a bit responsible for introducing. I know I am because so many guitarists have written to me and say said, we never knew you could play the guitar like that. And we heard you up in Thunder Bay or something, you or in El Salvador. I was always touring around the world in Nepal. And it changed their lives, just like me hearing one concert when I was 13 changed my life. So when I toured in Japan, they were fanatic about classical guitar over there. So I helped spread it all over the world, and especially but doing TV shows.
Speaker: I've met so many interesting musicians and people all over the world, so that's one of the privileges I played for every world leader just about. I hung out with everyone from Fidel too to the royal family. Prince Philip was my pen pal. I have almost 100 letters from him, and he just loved the guitar, believe it or not. You've stayed within your classical, but you've also expanded out. You talk about playing in India with the sitar players and doing other, you know, you have some songs on your albums. Yeah. Yes. That was just for fun. We didn't give formal concerts and they always wanted more me to play longer concerts in India. You know, I play everything I knew in two hours and no, no.
Speaker: We wanted four hours. i Oh, God. Oh, really? Yeah. We were very appreciative. And I played a Mother Teresa's hospice. I like to do a lot of charity things. On your website, you have a list of experiences and names names and and experiences and stuff. So I encourage our listeners, if you have a chance to go to leonoboid .com and check it out, because I read through all of them and yeah it's a pretty fascinating list. I was flying the Concorde back and forth, burning up the ozone. Sometimes it was the only way to get to Europe. I had a really packed schedule. i I don't think I slept in those days. I was extremely energetic.
Speaker: So let me ask you about a few people just that I was curious about. First first is Gordon Lightfoot. I'm assuming you guys were friends. He's gone now, obviously. Oh, great friends, And friends with his California wife. Well, I knew i know quite a few of the wives and girlfriends and groupies. He had a big following of women. But Lightfoot, yes, when I was just a teenager, we used to listen to him. You had that big platform of opening for him. That that must have been a good doorway for you to walk through. thousands of people every night and me playing Debussy and Chopin. I write about it in the book. There's a whole little section on Gordon and all the adventures we had on tour, but he was very generous and always brought me back at the end of the shows to take a bow with him.
Speaker: So a couple of things that struck me when I was reading through your biography, obviously you dated Pierre Trudeau, that was quite common knowledge. And then you got to meet people like Rottel Reagan and Margaret Thatcher and stuff. That goes back a while, yes. I used to play with Justin. Did you ever feel, oh that's I guess when Justin was a kid you would have known him of course. Yeah, we'd go hiking through the woods. So did you ever find yourself in a place like that where you it's kind of surreal to your looking around going, well, here I am. Yeah, especially at the summit conference when they were all there and they all talked to me afterwards. Margaret Thatcher and Reagan seeing me holding hands with Pierre because we sat together. He knew very well what was going on. It was interesting, very fascinating to meet all these world leaders.
Speaker: Yeah, I've had a kind of jet -set life. But i also yeah you know I'm just a little English kid who came over on a boat three times with my parents. yeah The people I miss the most, of course, are my parents. My mother lived to 95 and she was my biggest supporter. She got me a good guitar teacher in Toronto and I often took her on tour when I had an interesting place. and She came to India with me and to the Far East. She was a good road manager. Well, that's nice. And that was, you were able to to bond even further with her and let her take some, you know, get some, uh, advantage of your success as well. Oh, yes. She ran my company most from records for years. She kept meticulous books. She'd call up the promoters, deal with the record companies. Now it's all so technical. My producer, Peter Bond does a lot of that, um but we have a team of people. One person probably couldn't do it. It's so complicated now.
Speaker: And then I have to ask you about Chet Atkins. You got to play with him as well. He just played so effortlessly, like watching him play. He was a fan of mine. I was a fan of his and he was admiring all the different techniques I used to use. He used to get me to teach him different trills and tremolo and things like that, that he wasn't very good at. But he was Mr. Country Gentleman. I'd go down to Nashville and record it in his home studio. And I did many different you TV specials with him and all kinds of well -known Canadian artists. Did you get to meet the whole crew down there, like Glenn Campbell and Roy Clark and any of those guys? No, I didn't meet those two, but I did play in the Opry and um Boxcar Willie. He but you went crazy about my playing, almost smashed my guitar.
Speaker: One night we went to see the ah filming when he was on the Tonight Show. I'd been on it three times. We went and Warren Beatty came in. It was interesting living in LA. I lived in Malibu for a while. That's how I got to know Olivia Newton -John. She was a really dear friend and she sang Canadian Summer Dreams, which was lovely of her. You know, when you're a professional, you meet lots of people and you have sort of a professional acquaintance, but there's a few people that you gravitate to that you say, well, I really get this, our souls are kind of aligned. I really get this person and this person really gets me. Yeah. Those people are rare, right? Being built and we went shopping together a few times and had lunch in the patios of Palm Beach and I knew our husband. In fact, we both met him together.
Speaker: She said, oh, here's a nice man for you, Leona, because I had been divorced. and She ended up marrying him. So you're flying across the Atlantic in the Concorde and one of the engines falls off? Yes, France, yes. And then they try and land in... Reykjavik, and then they just switched the idea. I think they're going to land in Halifax. So I thought, oh, I'll get off in Halifax. I have friends there. Then in the end, we landed in New York and they had all the foam out. We couldn't stop easily. So that's why they had the foam. It was very scary.
Speaker: Today, I'm very honored to have as my guest, iconic songwriter, producer, performer, Eddie Schwartz. He has written and recorded multiple hits and received many well -deserved awards and accolades for his accomplishments. So you you were born in Toronto, but you're living in Nashville now, is that right? Yeah. Been here since 1997. Oh, wow. But we get we still get to claim you as a Canadian, right? Definitely. And we we spend the summers in Muskoka. I mean, it's still one of the most beautiful parts of the world, as far as I'm concerned. one of my cousins lived in New York, and I would go down to New York, and she lived in ah in Greenwich Village, which was at its peak in those days, early 60s. And so, you know, ah Dylan would, you know, Allen Ginsberg were walking on the streets in her neighborhood, saw people before they were famous, even, you know, they were just getting getting their, you know, becoming famous in New York, but their fame hadn't spread worldwide yet. So it was really a credible sign.
Speaker: to be in New York and and Toronto and hear the kind of music that's coming out of Yorkville. and yeah i i said new york so was It was very, very inspiring. But you did take some formal training. Did you do a degree in English and music? Did I read this from U of T? Well, actually it was your ah York University, which was yeah kind of ah a field of mud with a few buildings on it kind of scattered around back in those days. But yeah, I studied ah music and and literature English at at York. in its early days, fairly early days. and i think i was In fact, I think I was in the very first class of the Fine Arts Department. so and it was ah That was a bit of a struggle. um Again, songwriting wasn't really what they were about. They were more about jazz. was was very much The faculty there were very much about jazz. So what I was doing was a little outside you know what they were teaching. but um
Speaker: i mean The most important thing to me is the some of the people I've met there, like David Tyson, who I ended up working with and writing for years, and Fred Mandel, who went on to be Elton John's keyboard player, and Dallas Cooper, and Queen. These are a couple of Toronto boys, who you know and other people, Gwen Swick, who has been a very important Canadian ah you know songwriter and in various bands, quartet, etc. so it was um It was the you know my peers that i that I met in those programs that had a lot of influence on my career as I went forward. you know Songwriting attracted me again. I studied music and and and literature. you know Songwriting is kind of the place where those two things meet. you know To be honest with you, music has always come to me fairly easily and it it's always the most fun part. but the lyrics i you know I struggle with the lyrics, but I put a lot of time into trying to get them right. and yeah
Speaker: so yeah We can't forget about the lyrical side of things if you're a songwriter as well. You were like thousands of other kids. You had stars in your eyes. You just wanted to be a rock star. You wanted to join a rock and roll band and pursue a career in music. Was that your goal? um I guess maybe I was a little a little off the beaten track as far as that goes. The act of songwriting, the process of writing song. you know A lot of my friends were out doing sports when I was 12, 13 years old. They were you know involved in other kinds of activities, and all I wanted to do was write songs. The act of creating a song was just ah completely mesmerized me. i mean I was just completely in love with it. you know Unlike many yeah teenagers, I think ah I was struggling with with ah a lot of emotions and ah some depression, I think, in the early days there, 12, 13, 14, 15.
Speaker: and going through puberty and where do I fit into? you know You're becoming an adult. It's a very awkward and difficult period. and I just just compulsively wrote song after song after song. and so it was really It was always about that and about how that kind of helped me deal with my angst about being a young teenager at that point in suburban Toronto and trying to you know figure out who I was and yeah Just deal with a lot of a lot of strong emotions. That's an interesting way to put it. so you It's it's kind of ah an outlet for you or a relief valve, I suppose. and Then in the in the process, you become sort of a portal for the songs that you offer to the world that other people get to enjoy. so It's kind of a double whammy. Yeah. i mean The phrase came to me um recently that you know you're you're kind of celebrating your misery.
Speaker: um which of course sounds like a complete contradiction. But I think that i think a lot of the great songs are, you're kind of that's kind of what they're about. They're about celebrating your misery. And and the thing is that you know we all struggle with different things in life. So if you can celebrate your misery in the sense that you take those difficult emotional ah challenges you face, it can be very depressing and can bring you down. But you find a way to turn them into a positive
Speaker: experience. i mean you know and I think some of my songs, if you think about the lyrics of and Hit Me With Your Best Shot or Don't Shit a Tear, yeah in a way, that's what they are. They're kind of celebrating celebrating misery. or you know The defining moment for me was ah was writing Hit Me, Hit Me With Your Best Shot. yeah Because again, I was going through a very difficult period. I was was in my 20s at that point. I was you know and in Toronto, um couldn't get arrested. Nobody was interested in listening to my music. I'd had a little bit of success wrote wrote music for Springthaw, which was um a very well -known annual ah you know musical comedy review that happened in Toronto every spring. Written music for that and in 1970.
Speaker: ah So, id you know, I'd had some success. I had some support. and I'd met Bob Asbury, and he went on, of course, to become incredibly important. But yeah yeah Hit Me was written at the low point for me. I was contemplating just packing it all in. And I went into therapy. And um it was kind of a kind of a new age, slightly hippie -ish thing called bioenergetics. yeah And one of the things we did was punch pillows. You know, kind of get our hostility. We're speaking about anger and hostility. and that's an old Gestalt, Gestalt therapy kind of thing. Yelling in a chair, breaking eggs and stuff kind of thing. Right. Yeah. This was it along those lines. I was punching pillows and I walked out of one of these therapy sessions and the and the title hit me with your best shot came to me. And I was at a, I was in therapy because I was so depressed about the fact that nobody wanted to hear my music. And so again, it came back in that moment of like complete kind of despair. This title came to me that.
Speaker: that um and I wrote it from that from that despair. It was like, you know it's really me against the world kind of song, but I was able to capture some attitude. I'm not giving up. I'm calling your bluff world, if you will. yeah yeah and so that was really That was I think the moment um that I knew when I finished the song and it took me a long time to finish it because the lyrics had to be right. I knew that I'd maybe turned a corner. in terms of my writing. Well, again, it resonates with basically everybody. I mean, it's it's one of those universal themes that everyone's had that moment, right? Yeah, I think so. You played guitar for Charity Brown, right? that was Was that you one of your first earliest experiences of playing in a you know sort of recording act that could do something? I know and one of the musicians actually, he was the musical director for Charity. We knew each other and he offered me the gig. They're they're about to go on tour.
Speaker: can't remember, I think the the previous band had kind of fallen apart that she was using. And she was quite a big name in Canada at the time. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so I signed up. I didn't actually own an electric guitar. I only had acoustic guitars because I was kind of and of more in my, still in my sort of folky phase. Yeah. And um got a, bought a Stratocaster from another friend. and then I started learning how to play electric guitar, which is really a very different instrument. Yes. 100%. You got to play both a lot to get good at at both of them, right? Correct. Yeah, absolutely. So I knew she had a record deal with A and &M Records. I knew they were very active in Canada and signing Canadian artists. And it wasn't that I was really wanted to go on the road with Charity, no with all due respect to her, um you know for the next year and a half of my life.
Speaker: But I thought, well, maybe, and so again, I said nobody was interested in my music. Maybe they'll hear, maybe she'll do one or two of my songs, A &M will hear the songs. Maybe as though'll you know they'll they'll have some interest in what I'm doing. And and just so you know, I mean, I'd send tapes, you know, the old cassette tapes in those days oh yeah to to A and &M. And, you know, they they never heard back from from them for some time. So, you know, I'd write a few songs, do a demo tape. send it to them. Nobody ever got back to me. So yeah, this was like, okay, well maybe this'll work. Maybe at least they'll they'll hear one or two of my songs. Thanks for checking out these short bits from my much longer conversations with previous Liner Notes guests. Don't forget you can listen to each full interview at either linernotes .ca or on any podcast platforms. Just search for Liner Notes, revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Until next time, I'm Dan Hare.
