Transcript
Speaker: Hi it's Dan here for Dusty Discs Radio and this is the podcast Liner Notes revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Today I'm very honoured to have as my special guest singer, actress Catherine McKinnon, perhaps best known for her time on Sing Along Jubilee and the iconic Canadian classic, Farewell to Nova Scotia. We'll be talking about her many musical adventures and get some insights into the Canadian music scene from someone who's been part of it for many decades. So thanks for joining me today Catherine, how are you?
Speaker: I'm well, thank you. And it's just a joy to be with you. Well, I appreciate it. Thanks very much for coming on. And so you're an East coast girl born in St. John's, New Brunswick. St. John, New Brunswick. Yes, absolutely. Yes, I'm a meritimer. There you go. And so is that Akkadian or French? No, no, just it's actually more Irish than anything. My mother was a Catherine Helen O 'Brien and
Speaker: that he was, I guess, a wee Scott. So, we're a combination, but no, it's just English and the French I got, I got when I was in boarding school.
Speaker: Right. So you speak French fluently? Well, it's really interesting because when you study, we had a fantastic teacher whose father was the ambassador to Saint Pierre Miquelon and she was an only child
Speaker: And she came to school at Mount St. Vincent and she then later on became a nun. And so the Parisian, the French I have is more Parisian than Quebecois.
Speaker: But it's funny when you're back in this, you know, in the country or you're not, it comes back because you're in the environment. So it's a beautiful language and I've always loved it. So it's if you're there for a few days, it just comes back naturally. Oh, nice. Such a gift. Yeah. And then so, of course, the East Coast is famous for the musical influence and the Celtic music and the folk music and the kitchen music.
Speaker: And so was that your upbringing as music was everywhere when you were growing up? Well, it's really funny, uh, um, as far back as I can remember, I, I just loved to sing. It was, it was instinctive with me. I don't remember anything else. My mother would, well, my, my father was, um, in the second world war, he was a medic and a pharmacist. And when he came back to Canada.
Speaker: Our first posting was to Shiloh, Manitoba. And all I can remember is standing in my snow suit.
Speaker: and the kids waiting outside for me. And I would be mesmerized by listening to Rosemary Clooney and singing along and singing Bing Crosby and all that completely oblivious to anything and singing along with all of them. It was something that I just did instinctively. I was never asked to do that. It was just something that I love to do.
Speaker: Yeah, interesting because I often ask my guests, you know, did you have, did what you do have a plan or was it happenstance or just accident or did you have a defining moment? And sounds like for you, you just started singing and that was your life. Well, the crazy part was when we were in, when we were in, in Shiloh, I have an older brother who's about a year and a half older than I am. And everything we did, we did together.
Speaker: And we never really fought because I was allowed to play, you know, with his stinky toys with him. And we'd go on bikes together. We'd do everything. And the only time we ever fought was when my sister was born. And we fought over who was going to push the baby carriage. So we were pretty lucky. And we still had that wonderful connection, which is I used to tell everybody the best thing in the world is to have an older brother.
Speaker: No, that's great. And the family experience and the music is everywhere. But you started especially young, right? I mean, you began as a child performer and made a radio debut at age eight. Is that correct? Yeah. Well, when my father went to the front lines of Korea, we went back to St. John because that's where my parents were from and where both my brother and I were born.
Speaker: And we lived in, we lived in St. John and they had a children's radio show. So it was about two blocks away from where we lived. And so I used to do that frequently with such joy. And it was, it just felt like, it just felt natural, natural to me. And that's, it's all I ever wanted to do. All I ever, I just wanted to sing.
Speaker: Well, and things moved quickly for you. I mean, obviously after that, you were singing for friends and neighbors. Were you singing at community halls or churches or those kinds of things? Well, I certainly sang in church. I mean, I started going to, when we lived in Churchill and I was four years old, three or four years old,
Speaker: I used to go to my mother's choir practice and of course in those days the church music was in Latin and I just sang along because you know I guess you're like a sponge and you know you just picked it up and it was second nature to me it just it was music it didn't matter what kind
Speaker: Right. And then you can sing phonetically too. It's just the notes right here. Oh, God, for sure. Yeah. No, that's good. And so you always wanted to be a singer. I mean, you got a beautiful voice. It was that... I mean, you studied music after, but I mean, obviously... Yes, I did indeed.
Speaker: Yeah, you sound like a very trained singer, but you must have had that natural ability. Well, it's really funny because, you know, when you're a kid, you don't, you don't, you don't know what you have. You just know your instinct, your instinctive is if you just want to sing. And of course, in those days when, when people would come to visit, you know, one parent would say, and you know, whatever your gift is, or, you know, if you have to
Speaker: step dance or you have to recite a poem or something. And my mother would always say, Catherine, Beth, would you sing for so and so? Yes, Mama. And you just did it. It was fine. That was sort of part of, you know, the way you grew up. It was the norm. It's very, it's not like that now, but that's the way it was. And when I was 12 years old, my
Speaker: My second cousin came because his mother, his mother died. And of course I got up and I sang for Harmon O 'Brien. And he lived in Detroit and he worked for the Ford Company and he designed cars for Ford. And he said to my mother,
Speaker: What are you doing about Catherine singing? And she said, oh, she loves to sing. And he said, I'll contact you in a week or two and I'll see what I can do. So he arranged for me to have an audition.
Speaker: with Don Large, who was a professor at the university in Michigan. And I went on the 10th day of September to the 21st floor of whatever building that was for a 730 audition. And I just remember singing, I could have danced all night and I remember him changing the key, you know, you'd go into a second verse or something.
Speaker: And I just automatically went with him. And when he was finished, he said, this young lady has talent. And I didn't know this, but my voice was so much more mature than for my years. Like, what do I know? I'm a kid who loves to sing. Anyway, so he looked at my mother and he said,
Speaker: I had there's a television show that goes across the US and he said my own daughter has to be 16 years old to be in the chorus and I would like Catherine to be the the vocals you know the the singer the the one out front and my mother was kind of aghast I guess and she said well I can't make a decision like that I'll have to talk to her father so they had a conversation and um
Speaker: My mother said, you know, I don't think we can do that. I mean, she's too young. And I begged her to let me, let me go to a boarding school in London, Ontario, because that's where we lived before we moved to Halifax. And I said, I could take the train every weekend and I could go to Detroit. I could do the show and the money would go to you and everything would be fine.
Speaker: I don't think that's right because you'll hate me. I said, don't you know that you only get one chance and you destroyed everything. It's just like what Judy Garland said.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, you make a good point, right? Because those opportunities don't come along every day. They just don't come along. But what happened, I went, he suggested that I go to, you know, at Dalhousie, they had music and all that kind of stuff. Well, I was a little young for that. So I ended up at Mount St. Vincent with a couple of wonderful
Speaker: um teachers music teachers and piano and I did all that and every year I went into um what they called um the adjudicators would come from Great Britain and it was you know the festival and you would go in a competition where there'd be 42 people singing the same song and by the grace of god and nothing else I would end up
Speaker: I would get scholarships every year, so it was a blessing, and my parents didn't have to pay for my music. And you're still in Halifax at this time? Well, yes, I'm in Halifax from the last day of October, when I was 12 years old, until I moved in 1966 to Toronto.
Speaker: Okay. So how did the Sing Along Jubilee come along then? Was that, were you still in Halifax at that time? Yes, indeed. Yes. It was the second year of Sing Along and there had been a television show that presented different schools from, you know, to, to go and, you know, you do your, to do your half hour bit, you know, solos and chorus work. And one of the directors,
Speaker: suggested that two or three of us from the mount should go and audition for Singalong. Okay. So he told us where it was going to be and it was at Hirshhorn Hall and you had to be there for 7 .30 at night and there were two or three hundred people there and it was Manny Pittson who turned out to be the producer -director of Singalong and Freddie McKenna
Speaker: who was a great blind guitarist. You know, he played all kinds of any string instrument. He was amazing. And also, Bill Langstroth, who was a producer at the CBC. And he was going, he was part of Singalong Jubilee. He was a co -host with Jim Bennett. So I went with a girlfriend, and she was supposed to go to St Pierre Miquelon to be with the governor of
Speaker: the island and and she was anyway so the two of us went and when everybody got up to sing the rest of the people in a chorus would would basically sing you know sing in harmony behind that person that was auditioning and I got up to sing I sang what have they done to the rain and ten thousand miles that was famous by beloved
Speaker: Joan Baez and when I sang there was dead silence and I could barely get through either one of those tunes because I just thought even in the middle of singing for them I said I'm out of this because everybody else you know joined in the chorus and when I got there there was nobody and I thought this is it this is a waste of time nothing will happen
Speaker: So as the night progressed, you know, they kept whittling down and whittling down. And I think it was about two in the morning and there was about 20, 20 people left out of a little over 200. And we both went to this crazy Chinese restaurant called the Look Ho Ho, and we went there.
Speaker: And I cried because I said I didn't get anything and I was so disappointed. And Tia said she cried because she thought she didn't. She'd have to give up being in St. Pierre for the summer. So we went home to Tia's house and went to sleep. And my mother called in the morning to Mrs. Griffin and said,
Speaker: that a gentleman from the CBC had called and wanted me to call him back, so I did. And it was Manny Pittson, a director, and he just said, you have been accepted as a soloist and a chorizo.
Speaker: And that's how it all started. So, I mean, that was a huge door for you because that gave you basically a national platform at that point. Yeah, and there I was with hair down to past my waist and braces on my teeth.
Speaker: that's okay it was something else but it was it was such you know what it was everybody who just loved to sing there were people of all there was a lawyer there was a judge there was a nurse there were all kinds of different people different ages but we all loved each other and our whole
Speaker: focus was the absolute, abject, loving, loving singing. And we were like a family. We ended up being a family with the crew and all of us. We used to have
Speaker: big parties together. We used to go swimming together. We did all kinds of stuff. It was just an incredible unit. It was wonderful and it was such an education and such a joy.
Speaker: Well, yeah. And that comes across in the joy that you're trying to spread. I mean, music is about spreading joy in the world. Oh, it is. And it's also the international language. And I've experienced that in more ways than one. It's extraordinary. I mean, how many people get to live your passion and that you never ever, you never work a day in your life because it's what you live for. It's what you breathe for.
Speaker: I mean, it's extraordinary. Yeah. And the other key element for you though, is that you got farewell to Nova Scotia because every, every singer needs to have an identifying song or they'd say, Oh, that's that person. Well, you know, it was so funny because we were the, uh, sing along Jubilee was the 13 week, uh, program.
Speaker: that took place because Don Messer would be 26 weeks of the year. And then we filled in those last those 13 weeks. And I was given this huge American anthology. It had to have been about six or seven inches thick. And I started to go through it. And I can't tell you the amount of
Speaker: you know, renditions for Barbara Allen. I mean, it was unbelievable. And I sat down and I thought, why should I be looking at American folk songs when look at all the people from Great Britain and the different countries in the world that came, you know, to this country, to Pier 23 in Halifax and landed in Montreal. So I started looking for,
Speaker: people that were around, you know, looking and there was this amazing, there was, Edith Folk had a book and the other one was, this was a woman that would take her old York recorder and she would go and she would go into villages and she would
Speaker: get interesting wonderful stories about
Speaker: you know, people and, you know, and what a widow's walk was. And I like all of those kinds of things. And she recorded all of this. And I thought there was this song called Farewell to Nova Scotia. And I took it into, as you would call him, Mr. Pitson. And he looked at it and he said,
Speaker: Well, you can't sing that, Catherine, because that's a man's song. So about three weeks later in this 13 -week extraordinary opportunity we all had, he said, I guess a duet didn't work. I don't remember what it was. So he said, Catherine, he said, what about that Nova Scotia song that you felt? And I looked at it. You had to be very polite. You dressed well.
Speaker: You crossed your legs, you wore white gloves, and you were very quiet. And I looked at him and I said, well, Mr. Pitson, I can't sing that because it's a man's song. He said, Catherine, you will sing that song. And I said, yes, sir. And I did. And it was about three weeks before the end of, you know, what we were doing for the program.
Speaker: And apparently the switchboard went ballistic. They had about five or six thousand calls and the letters came pouring in. And what happened was there were so many people that asked about the song that we did something that was really unheard of. We made a repeat of that of farewell to Nova Scotia. And because it was so popular,
Speaker: We met the next year, the next summer, we, we had that it was farewell to Nova Scotia into this land is your land. And it just became this really powerful, powerful song. Well, it became an anthem. I mean, it was, it was absolutely did, you know, and that's what you want. And I was so lucky and so blessed, you know, you don't speak in those terms. You just.
Speaker: You know, Dr. Helen Creighton, forgive me, how could I ever forget that woman who had more than one book on maritime folk songs and folk stories and all kinds of things. She was an extraordinary woman. And I was, I still had in my house a painting of Dr. Creighton's because between Manny Pittson, Freddie McKenna and Bill Langstroth,
Speaker: and Dr. Helen Creighton, they changed my life and I lived every day in complete and utter gratitude for the four of them and what they gave, the opportunity that I was given. Well, good for you and the fact that you're thankful for that because obviously you had the talent. How could you be upset when you were given such opportunities and such
Speaker: You know, I mean, then then it expanded and I started going to like to the Juliet show as a guest. And I also had a 15 minute. A 15 minute radio show that went coast to coast one day a week. Well, I mean, who gets that when you're 19 years old?
Speaker: Well, then you were on you were on Don Messer's Jubilee. I tried to find a video of that and I watched a few of the episodes. Well, you know what? It's it's it's really sad. They were absolutely beautiful, beautiful people. And I love them all. I love Charlie. I am absolutely adored. Marg, they were wonderful, wonderful people. But what happened to those tapes in those days, in the 60s, nobody really
Speaker: thought, I mean, they went over, they would go over the tape. So there was very little left, unfortunately, but it was a wonderful education. And it also gave me the opportunity to tour with the Messer group across this country in the summertime. It was unbelievable. Yeah. And the way they were loved and adored
Speaker: They were they were greeted as it greeted as if they were part of the family Yeah, because we didn't have a second network in not until 1966 and the only reason I remember that is Because my sister patrician and and my guitar player Brian a Hearn and the bass player we were on the first show on CTV and
Speaker: Well, that's right. I see here you moved to Toronto in 1966, I guess. I moved in 1966 as to my sister and Brian and my brother. And, you know, it was I didn't like, like all of us didn't want. We love this country. We are grateful for it. And
Speaker: When Annie came on the next year, she would not leave this country. My dear friend, Gordon Lightfoot, you can get on a plane.
Speaker: It was so much easier to stay in a country where in those days we didn't have the gun situations that America had another. And you're proud to be in this country. You're grateful. Every time I went away, I would come back and I would be filled with joy to be in my own country.
Speaker: Well, Canada is a beautiful place. And that I had the opportunity to go literally from one end of this country to the other. And it's vast and it's absolutely stunningly beautiful. And to have that and to know your country well is such a blessing. It's such a gift.
Speaker: So when you moved to Toronto and you got on the CTV shows, that, that upped your game even more, right? And you ended up - Well, it did. I mean, I had done a tour from a dear friend of mine that I was in Springthaw with dear beloved Dinah Christie.
Speaker: She followed me and we started this tour that was for, we went from Victoria right straight to St. John's, Newfoundland. That was another part of the tour and it was wonderful and people were great and kind.
Speaker: And we got to Newfoundland and then CTV flew in to see me and offered me a television show called The River Inn.
Speaker: Right, and that was late 60s, 68, 69. Late 60, yeah. And at the same time, I'm doing things like the Riverboat, which is an iconic folk club that only had about 120 seats in it. But in the 60s, you could go down Yorkville.
Speaker: And you could see Jose Feliciano, you could see all kinds of, you know, sunny, you know, all kinds of just incredible folk singers. And it was just a joy. You know, you're living, you're living the, it's, you can't believe that you're living the life you're living. All because you can sing. Yeah. And you ended up getting the Catherine McKinnon show as well for a couple of years, right? Yes, I did the next year. Yeah.
Speaker: So let me ask you about the acting part of it because obviously you're a singer but then you made that transition. Was that just sort of a natural thing that you just started acting musical theatre? Well, there was a very famous show that used to go across the country. It was a review show called Spring Fall.
Speaker: And we toured that in 1967, that great year. And we literally went from one end of the country to the other. And there were incredible people with it, like Barbara Hamilton, who was a mentor to me, and the beloved Peter Muse, who
Speaker: went on to play Matthew and Anne of Green Gables at the festival in Charlottetown. We had absolutely extraordinary people. And just, you know, and I to work with people like that, it's like having an acting lesson every day. And Barbara would say to me, I am going to make it so you never even smirk on sticks.
Speaker: She was, you know, you were gifted with people that are so talented and so wonderful and giving with their own time to make you better and to be kind to you. And you live in such gratitude for that. And because of Springthaw, then I went on to do the works I did. The River Inn, right?
Speaker: Well, after River Inn, I did a lot of theater. I went to Winnipeg.
Speaker: And how did you get on Wayne and Schuster, too? They saw you, I guess. Oh, dear God. I'll tell you a funny story about that. Well, they would always have a performer on that show. And I got a really great review in the Toronto Star for a guest appearance on Wayne and Schuster. And one of the fellows that I knew who was in the cast, he called me and he said to
Speaker: what he just knew that that because I was given so many accolades and you know what you have to live with it and say half of that might be true because if you think everything they say is true then your head gets away too big and it's just you know you do the best job that you can but you don't think that you're king Jesus you don't you just you live
Speaker: The joy of the moment and you do what you possibly can do the best you can do It's not me to judge. It's not for me to judge. It's just for me to do the best that I can and They were pretty upset because I had more accolades than they did and there it's that's their big show Wayne and Schuster So after that, they didn't have singers. Okay, they had dancers Okay
Speaker: Yeah. But there was some acting involved. Did you do some skits on that show as well or was it just straight? No, no, I didn't. It was just straight out focal. That was all it was. That was it. Yeah. No. But I then, you know, like when you tour for six months on the road and you come and you finish in Toronto and you're playing in the Royal Alec, it's pretty bloody big when you, you know, you could see these pictures all over the place of the iconic people that had been on that stage. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, and it's still, you're still learning and you're still growing. It's all part of it's. Yeah. But I mean, for you, you stepped up to what you had to and you were affirmed in that because one way you can tell if you're successful or not is when you do something and people affirm you in that people. Well, that's, that's true. But, you know, I, I ended up doing, doing things like my fair lady, uh, in Winnipeg with the incredible Len Carrey, you who
Speaker: Shortly after that, got a tummy. I mean, you just never know. You never know. You don't know what's going to be offered to you. And some of the greatest moments for me were the gift of singing for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth on three different occasions. When you pinch yourself because you don't believe it's true.
Speaker: And the first time I ever sang for her was when she came to Halifax and when she got, when the ship entered into, just past Sable Island, you couldn't see a thing because the fog was so thick, but I had a chance to go on the Britannia and then sing for her the next night. It was unbelievable. Unbelievable.
Speaker: And to sing, because I'm an army brat, one of the greatest joys of my life was to sing to the troops. I went to the Arctic for nine days with
Speaker: the irish rovers you know and i mean all of that that the joy that you get and the kids that we would sing to and you know to go to like your 400 miles south of the north pole i mean in alert and
Speaker: you know, you just get to do all kinds of wonderful things like that and to go and it also gave you a place where you could see the world. Yeah. You can see all kinds of different places that you never believed you'd ever seen. So did you ever, was it ever surreal to you? Did you ever look around going, gee, I'm here. This is
Speaker: Well, I can't, you know, you just stand there and you're gobsmacked and you go, I, you know, pinch myself and don't, you know, to be in a fluke up the Nile, to be in Upper Egypt, to be in a little tiny community where, I mean, it's just, it's
Speaker: To see a world and to be able to see it because you sing is pretty amazing in itself. I turned 80 a couple of weeks ago and it's just a number. But how could I not live in complete and utter gratitude? I wake up with gratitude and joy that I have experienced so much.
Speaker: It's a life I dreamt of, but how many people get to live their dreams? Well, you know, it sounds like a great journey. And the other curious thing to me is that like in the sixties, when you came up, the music business in Canada was still sort of forming and finding its way. Did you have a manager? I mean, it's, it's so interesting because, uh, I, I worked in, um, in Paramaribo where you sang seven, seven nights a week. And who cared?
Speaker: And I was with Arc Sound at the time and there were something like seven or eight different shows that I was supposed to do that were presented by the record company. And they canceled every one of them. One was to be, I was supposed to be on the Ed Sullivan show and that was canceled. I was supposed to sing for Prince Philip.
Speaker: I was supposed to do all of these different things and just sort of the day before You would get a call saying You know, you're not doing this and by this time you have spent your money on You know getting the music, you know getting your your charts all together you you had to make you know have a gown made or whatever it was and They called and said You have one
Speaker: You have won an award, and you have to go to Cannes to pick it up. So they sent a cable, and I just responded. I said, I'm not going anywhere. I said, every time you give me something, you cancel it, so I'm not going. I refuse.
Speaker: And it was a Midam award for the top vocalist in the country, female vocalist. And the other, other person who won was dear beloved, Gordon Lightfoot. He got one. Oh, very nice. And I didn't know for.
Speaker: literally a couple of years when I finally got the award given to me personally. And I was sitting on the fifth floor in London, England with a director from one of the British
Speaker: the British companies, record companies. And there were four of these things up on the wall and I said, I said, oh, well, who are those?
Speaker: And he said, George Ringo John. And I said, Oh! I felt like such a fool. I had no clue. I had no clue. But, you know, you just, you know, there are ups and downs. Just take them.
Speaker: And like I said, I got that award. I'm really proud of it. It's long before they ever had the CRTC and Gordon and I had the biggest sales in the country. He for male and me for female. You don't know that. You just do your job and you just keep on going.
Speaker: Well, that's what I was curious about. Did you have a manager? Because when you recorded your album in 64, I guess, right? This is Catherine. Well, we did. We recorded in Hirshhorn Hall in Halifax for the Sing Along Jubilee stuff. But then I recorded in London with, sorry, in Toronto with Ark Sound. And I had a manager for years whose name was Paul Simmons.
Speaker: He had a i don't know what it is like he represented juliet who was on the television show i think everybody that was on the tv show in canada he represented okay all of us i don't know how we get i don't know how we got it going.
Speaker: Well, the reason I asked that is because, you know, as I said, the music business was still forming and you needed a manager. But once you recorded your first album, you went on a tear. Well, because, you know, you're like when, when, when that happens, you're on the road like constantly. So, I mean, who's going to pay your telephone bill or your rent or any of that stuff? Somebody has to do it. And you're on the road and you can't, you can't take care of that. But looking at your discography here, too, you put out an album pretty much every year. You did a Christmas album, you did
Speaker: a whole bunch of stuff. I mean, you were, you were, must have been extremely busy through the 60s. I was, I was, I was busy. It's really funny because when I was asked to do spring thaw, this is really crazy. At the same time,
Speaker: We were rehearsing. I was in the studio till 12 o 'clock at night and I got back home at about 1 .30 and then I was back up at 7 o 'clock because we had to be at the rehearsal for 8.
Speaker: So you're doing two things at once and you don't know if you're coming or not. Yeah, that's what I mean. It's obvious from your history here that they keep you busy, but at least you had someone looking after you. But you know what? It still doesn't feel like work. It's still...
Speaker: It's a joy. It's wonderful. And the people that you meet and the people that you get to work with. Well, tell me a little bit about that. You mentioned Gordon Lightfoot a couple of times. He's my favorite. I do acoustic shows all the time and I sing Gordon Lightfoot songs. He was such a dear sweet soul. When I first met him, and I wish to heaven I could remember what it was, but when I started coming to Toronto to do different guest appearances on shows, I had somehow met Gordon
Speaker: And when I finished, he would always say, when you're finished rehearsal, call me up and come on over. So I would. And there was his eldest son. He was about three years old, Fred. And we'd sit on his front balcony.
Speaker: And he'd play the songs that he had just written. And we'd sit and sing. And it was just this wonderful thing with this truly gifted artist. It just blew your brains out of the soul. He's the best. I just think he's the best. Oh, without exception. And such a sweet, dear human being. I mean, a class act. So, so lovely.
Speaker: When Gordon passed, it was really horrible because four days before he died, Belafonte died, and I had worked a lot with Harry. And I was so, so upset because, you know, you never got to just don't want them to leave. And I just remember one woman on the television saying,
Speaker: He gave us, he made us proud as Canadians. Look what he gave us. He was this extraordinary man with a gigantic gift. And he worked really, really hard every year because he would almost go into hibernation before he would record the music. Just amazing talent.
Speaker: And then you got to work with Lenny Bro, as well. He played on some of your songs. Yes, I did. Tell me about that. Oh, God, I did a horrible thing when I, I mean, I worshiped him. All you had to do was watch those shows. It was music called for Halifax, then it went to Halifax.
Speaker: Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, and then Vancouver. And he would sit on that chair and just the delicacy of his work and it just took your breath away. How did you get to record with him? Well, we were both asked to do something for, it was something about Hamilton and
Speaker: So they had Lenny and they had me and that we worked together on that thing. I went to Winnipeg and I can't tell you what it was like to work with him. It just, you know, you, there are iconic people that you don't ever think you will ever work with. And it's, it just.
Speaker: It's something you don't forget because of the gift that they had and that you were chosen to work with them. It's you never get over that. You never get over it. No, that's interesting. And then what did you have a connection with Anne Marie? I read her book and she came up through the CBC as well. Were you? Oh God, absolutely. She did. Annie came on Sing Along Jubilee the next year.
Speaker: And she was a chorus member and she was a soloist and she was wonderful. Everybody got along. We were like family and, you know, she.
Speaker: She had that hit, that, that, uh, snowbird. I mean, I had mine, she had hers and she went on to be gigantic, which was wonderful. Wonderful. Well, you guys were kind of opposite singers because she says in her book, like she had a lower tone. She had almost a male range of voice, but it's, it's so interesting and so recognizable, you know, it's beautiful for her. Oh yeah. So it was, and then did you ever work with Ian and Sylvia?
Speaker: Oh my God, yes, of course I did. I knew them well, worked with them. I would do things like the Winter Carnival for a university, and there was a god -awful snowstorm, and I was the front act for Ian and Sylvia at Saint of Ex. And I went on and I sang and sang and sang and sang.
Speaker: Of course, in those days, you didn't have cell phones, so we never knew if they were going to make it. They did. But I sang myself out. And of course, I stayed and watched them. And of course, I loved them. I knew them. I respected them. Oh, yeah. No, very good. Yeah. Yeah. I had Sylvia on the podcast last year, I guess it was. I talked
Speaker: Oh, did you? Oh, my God. You know, she's a gem. No, they were good friends. Good friends of mine. Oh, good. You know, we're Canadians. We support each other. We care about each other. We only want the best. Yeah. No, that's that's a that's a good attitude for sure. And then it has to be. And then so you recorded lots of songs that were written by other people and you had to sort of selection process. Did you ever write any of your own songs and record any of those? I only wrote one. It was when I was doing a Christmas album, I
Speaker: conductor and I, Diane Leo, we wrote a Christmas song that I dedicated to my daughter, Kelly. That's the only time. My take was, I can sing, but God didn't give me the gift of, I said, there's so many extraordinary people in my own country.
Speaker: Why would I not want to sing their songs? Yeah, I agree. I mean, I sang until it's time for you to go. Well, you sang Leonard Cohen songs and Joni Mitchell songs. Yes, I did. Because it's funny, you know, when I went on the road by myself, I took with me
Speaker: I took the poetry of Leonard Cohen, I took Ferlin Getty, I took E. E. Cummings and somebody else and I took the English and French dictionary and the great big Oxford dictionary because I always loved words and I'd make myself, I wanted to have a better
Speaker: vocabulary, so I would sit and learn stuff with the dictionary. Yeah, nice.
Speaker: So that was it, but Leonard Cohen was a giant, absolute giant. Did you work with him? Did you get to know him? No, I did not, but I sure went to see him. Wow. You never forget that, the gentleness of him. I knew people that knew him well, but the gift he gave all of us was just extraordinary. And you never forget that. No, no, that's right.
Speaker: Well, and then the other thing I wanted you to tell me about your sister, your sister, Patricia Ann McKinnon. She became a singer as well and then passed away. Oh yes. Well, we used to, crazy things used to happen. I would often be asked to, we sang when we were kids. We just did, she was three and a half years younger than I and she was strikingly beautiful. And she auditioned for Music Hop and she was on Sing Along when she was 16. Nice.
Speaker: And she would do all kinds of different shows and programs and stuff. And we would do duets together like Dominique and different things like that. We'd do it in harmony. And I remember distinctly one Saturday morning when I was supposed to do
Speaker: blessing for a wedding and I awakened her and I said, Trisha, you've got to help me. I said, I've got almost pneumonia and I can't sing the top lines. You've got to come and sing the top lines for me. And we went to the church and we stood there and I sang what I couldn't. She filled in the rest and they said afterwards, thank you, thank you, Catherine. That was lovely.
Speaker: But, you know, but we sang together and we used to, you know, we had both of us had very long hair and we would do our hair at the same time and we would sit and we would sing all the Broadway shows, all the songs that were there and we knew all the songs. We loved to sing and sing together and Patricia, unfortunately,
Speaker: I was working in London, England doing television shows and recordings and stuff and I called her every day and I couldn't get a hold of her and I said, where are you? And she said, I'm in Princess Margaret Hospital. I said, what are you doing there? And she said, well, they've diagnosed me with Hodgkin's and I had never heard of it.
Speaker: And I said, oh, don't be silly, Trish. I said, you don't even shake because we knew about Parkinson's, but not a lot of people knew about Hodgkin's. And she unfortunately had it. She lived
Speaker: She's in medical books as being one of the longest survivors. She was 28 years with Hodgkin's. She had a phenomenal oncologist. She would say, Patricia, if you think you're up to it, then you can go and you can co -host sing along if you feel you're strong enough.
Speaker: She would go and she would do that. And then we did a crazy show, a satirical show out of Ottawa called
Speaker: It's the news with my husband Don Herron and Jack Duffy and other people that were really, really gifted and she played Cookie the TV Guide. We worked a lot together and we loved working together and we had a wonderful blend.
Speaker: She had a hit song, Blue Lipstick in the 60s. Yes, she did. Yes, absolutely. She was strikingly beautiful because the guys in the crew called her the Vogue model because you couldn't shoot her. She just looked exquisite everywhere they looked at her. And she was loads of fun. She had a great wit. She was fun and funny to be with. Well, good. Well, I wanted to mention that because she passed away in 2001, so I'm sure you miss her.
Speaker: Well, it's so funny because I saw her every day that I could when I was in Toronto, or I would always call and say, is it a good day? Because I think some people don't understand if you have a life threatening disease,
Speaker: your focus has to be on you. Yeah, fair enough. And I would call every day first and I'd say, is this a good day or a bad day? And she said it was a good day. I would go and I would spend about 20 minutes with her because
Speaker: A lot of people come in and they mean well, but if you're there for three hours That takes away so much from the patient. It's so it's just so exhausting so I would some lots of times I would go spend 20 minutes with her and then I'd call her just after supper and then say can I come back she'd say sure or she'd say no, yeah, but you just had to be aware of
Speaker: what that patient was going through at that time. You almost wish it was you rather than the other person watching someone else suffer. I cried because the morning after I arrived back from England, the first thing I did was call her oncologist. I was a wreck and I said to
Speaker: Dr. Vera Peters, she was one of the top oncologists in that disease. At the time, she was very, very world renowned. And I said to her, you have to help me. I don't know what to do. I'm a wreck. You have to tell me you have to be there for me, you know, because it's such a shock. And she was so young and so beautiful and had a beautiful life ahead of her.
Speaker: a gorgeous voice. Well, and that's your baby sister too, right? I mean, you want to fix it. Exactly. It's a lot to take in in a really short space of time. Well, speaking of that, how did you manage the family and personal life in the context? I mean, you were so busy. You were here and there and everywhere. You're kind of married to your career in a sense, right?
Speaker: Well, I suppose in many ways that's true, but I went to Trinidad to work in a
Speaker: I can't even remember the name of the place, but I was seven months pregnant, but I didn't show. And I was filling in for a dear friend who was five months pregnant, and her name was Vanda King. She was also on television a lot. She was a great friend.
Speaker: great friend of mine. So I filled in for Vanda and I got to, I went to see the doctor as soon as I got off the plane and I said to him, um, I'm seven months pregnant. And I said, I just wanted to check in with you. And he said, everything's okay. And he said, you're going to have a, a
Speaker: Trinidad baby. And I said, Oh, no, doctor. No, no. And it was interesting because there were there were people that came to see me who had gone to from Trinidad. They went to St. Mary's University and they had seen me perform, you know, at the at the school.
Speaker: And they brought their wives, their cousins, their, you know. So they said, would you come out with us after? And I said, that'd be nice. So I was seven months pregnant. There was another lady who was three months pregnant. And the oldest one was nine months pregnant. And she was about to give birth. So we went and we had a little bit of food and we all drank.
Speaker: Lime just, you know, we had no liquor in it. We didn't do that. And so we sat there and so we came home and it was, I guess, around midnight, something like that. And I went to sleep and about three or four in the morning, I had these horrible, horrible pains in my stomach.
Speaker: And I got up and I said, I said to my husband, I need something like a, I said, I think it's, I think it's all the juice that I had. And so I took that and, you know, pep the bismol and all that stuff and it didn't stop. And I said, something is wrong here.
Speaker: So they called the nurse and she came and she looked at me and she said, you're going to have a baby. Oh wow. That's happening right now. So she went, she got bags of ice and they took me to, to the clinic and, um, my child was born, I think about two hours later. And I had this baby girl who was so tiny. She went from my elbow.
Speaker: Just to my arm. So she was really tiny. Yeah and the great thing was that Shamsi Siddhaka was the nurse and she took the baby for the first two nights and when I came back to Canada a couple of days later They asked me what I had to declare and I looked at them and I said my daughter Wow
Speaker: Yeah, and it all worked out you got some medical only way that I could travel and tour was I was adamant that I would have my child with me. Okay. And so I had a amazing nanny.
Speaker: From Jamaica who came when Kelly was seven weeks old nice and we went on the road together Okay, Kelly and my dog my three and a half, you know in whatever three and a tiny Yorkshire Terrier Jerry and Kelly and me and the dog and we were on the road. Okay. Well, that's how we did it. Yeah, very good
Speaker: Well, I had to because I didn't know that it would be my only child, but that was it. And I wasn't going to let her life, you know, I'm just not going to drop off and just pretend she's not there. This is my child. But you have to manage it all so you can keep your career going as well because you were right in the thick of it, right?
Speaker: You do. So tell me about your involvement with the Famous People Players and Diane Dupree. Well, I came from a family, you know, we're all products of environment. And my parents basically, it didn't matter what it was, they volunteered for everything. So naturally, that's what you think everybody does. It's just, it's the norm.
Speaker: So I volunteered. I was the spokesperson for multiple sclerosis for 17 years. And I did that for a couple of reasons. One, because Karen Oxley, who was a wonderful singer and soloist, and she was in a trio.
Speaker: on sing -along. She was a fabulous girl with a wonderful wit and Karen got multiple sclerosis and she got every single thing that that disease could give her. So
Speaker: I went on I was asked if I would if I would I was I was just my mug was absolutely everywhere and I said I can't keep this up and I said to my husband you know what if leprosy comes back I said I bet that they will contact me and honest God in heaven three days later I get
Speaker: letter from leprosy well and I said I can't take you know first of all it looks like you're greedy but every in there was so many people pulling and wanting you for benefits and I'm thinking I have to do this because these are all incredible things that need money so I ended up being with famous with MS for 17 years
Speaker: And I did that. And we had some wonderful opportunities. We had amazing doctors from coast to coast. And we were the first people ever to perform in the Canadian Embassy in Washington at the new embassy. And we performed it on Canada Day. And we brought the money back home. And it was a triumph. It was something important.
Speaker: I think a lot of people that work for charities should be able to do that and to work hard and hope for everything that somewhere, somehow they'll find a cure. So I did that and I knew Diane Dupuis, who was this amazing woman
Speaker: who started to help people who at the time were always called retards and she was determined that would not be the way that they were seen. And she would do incredible work with him. She gave these kids a life. She taught them manners, she taught them hygiene, she taught them
Speaker: Before they went to New York for the first time on Broadway, Diane invited me in to see the rehearsal.
Speaker: And I went in and I thought, I don't know where she gets the strength and the repetition that has to be there for these kids, but she truly loved them. They were like, every one of them were like her own children. And one of the girls, Debbie was unmercifully shy and Diane kept saying, open your arms as wide as you can so you can cover the whole stage. And she would put her arms up maybe about
Speaker: six inches. Anyway, she finally got them out and finally she moved three steps forward and took this enormous bow. And on the night of the opening, she moved forward and it was just this gigantic, wonderful bow and they just
Speaker: You know, they were so thrilled for her. And the kids were all dressed in, they were all dressed in tux, looking absolutely fabulous. So I went up to her and I said, you did a great job tonight. And she said, yeah, but I forgot something. And I said, that's okay.
Speaker: I said, the first thing is that you remember that you forgot something. And I said, nobody, nobody has ever seen you. This is the first time you're in New York. Nobody knows that. You know it and I know it. And I said, that's the magic of theater because you can do that. I said, you'll remember and you'll do it tomorrow and it'll be magical.
Speaker: And she said, yeah, you're right. And then she looked straight at me and she said, excuse me, I have to go and work the room.
Speaker: And I turned around and I burst into tears and I thought, my God, this is so extraordinary. It was so unbelievable the way she had grown, the confidence that she had. And I was just, it was one of those magical moments that you can never forget. And it was all because of the true dedication
Speaker: of Diane Dupuis and her belief that these people were really truly worth something. And they are, they are. Her passion got you involved, you ended up being involved. Well it did because I felt, I mean this was such
Speaker: It was such kind of an intimate thing. And there was somebody that loved them and cared about them and only wanted the best for them. And so many things changed. They're called, it's developmentally handicapped. And it's all kinds of different, some people, they all have different situations, but there's something that they can do. I mean, the very fact that these people work in the kitchen,
Speaker: that was presented and given to them by Paul Newman and the theater that was given by Phil Collins. Fabulous. I mean, these people gave and gave and gave with their hearts. And it's a tribute to what Diane had staged for breast cancer. And I took her to every single one of those appointments. She had no hair.
Speaker: And she told everybody she cut her hair because it was the first time her grandson had cut his. And so the bottom line was she was invited to go to India for this incredible seminar all about what Diane was living about and what she was doing for developmentally handicapped people.
Speaker: And before she got to the stage, got to the lectern, the entire audience, the whole audience was up screaming and clapping and just going crazy for her. And she looked and she said,
Speaker: What happened? And they looked up to her and they said, don't you know, you're the gold standard for this. Well, she is because it's so it's so hands on and it's so dedicated and.
Speaker: Yeah. Well, I like the, I like the motivational part of it too. It's a registered charity. It's an educational enterprise, but it's motivational. I mean, I mean the kids, when, when I watched them, when they were in New York, you know, wearing their famous people player, you know, jackets going to the theater, she taught them that when you, when you go to a restaurant, it's your job or, you know, your responsibility to give a tip. And all those kids knew all that and they had great manners and they knew
Speaker: please and thank you and you know all the things that you need to to work and to survive and Yeah, I can't tell you the amount of people and you know the people that worked with her I mean all those the guys from Second City the things they gave the company and You know Danny Aykroyd
Speaker: And I worked like if there was whatever the show was, like I had one and there was a puppet of me as an angel. So I sang with that and somebody manipulated that. It depended on what it was. But everybody gave their time because this was so, what she was doing was so extraordinary. And she was making these people have lives that had value. And it was a privilege to be part of that.
Speaker: And there was a recent governor general's award. Is that right? Tell me well, there you go You see it's uh, you know when when when I say we're products of environment. That's what we knew That's what my sister knew my brother knew and it was just normal. It was just normal. That's what you did And you got an award for that so is diane still with us or did she pass oh dear god, yes, she is because uh, the 28th it was the when her uh
Speaker: when the governor general arrived and her thank you was she had never seen anything like it and it made her cry. She was overwhelmed. And she got through her cancer battle. Exactly. I mean, so amazing. And to be part of that, to watch the growth and the change in everything. Diane was so adamant about taking care of
Speaker: her people and all the things that had to happen. And then on June the 1st was the 50th anniversary and our beloved Bob Ray and his wife came. And they were there. It was a triumph. It was an incredible evening that I'll never forget. Yeah, very nice. So how was the business for you as a woman? Was there different pressures? Were you ever mistreated in that way?
Speaker: Never. No, I had, listen, I lived in gratitude every day and I, as somebody who's 80 years old now, I live in more gratitude because of all the opportunities I had. And I judged my life against my sisters and any little bit of things like I've got arthritis. So what? I never ever
Speaker: had to go through what my beloved baby sister went through. So it's doubly that I live in gratitude and thank God that I had the opportunities I had. So you can only have gratitude. You can't say poor me because it was never like that. Yeah, fair enough. And what about the business stuff? Did you ever get mistreated or taken advantage of like record deals or managers?
Speaker: Um, well, I didn't exactly, I didn't, I didn't quite like what Arc did, but you know, there you go. There were so many people that asked me, you know, would I, what would I say? And I would say it's it, I would not suggest that you should go with Arc, but they went with them anyway. So I tried to give them an understanding. So.
Speaker: Well, it's just the nature of the business, right? It's an exploitative business by nature. You're not in control. You're controlled by other elements and you either take it or you walk away. I wasn't willing to walk away from anything.
Speaker: Yeah, fair enough. And were you able to avoid the reckless sort of side of fame and fortune in the pop music, drugs and booze scene and all that stuff? No, we didn't have that. I mean, it was such a different time. I mean, what we were able to do in the 60s, 70s, 80s, whatever, it was a very, very different thing.
Speaker: No, I didn't have that. I know Annie didn't. So, you know, Ian and Sylvia didn't have it. We were really blessed that the timing was what it was. And so you live, like I say, just in gratitude and joy.
Speaker: Well, and your music was more wholesome. I mean, you know, obviously I got caught up in the scene. Right. But someday I come back. The only music that I don't do or have never done is rap. No.
Speaker: I can't understand it half the time. There you go. It's been here 50 years. Where did the time go? That's right. I mean, it's just, but my, my thing is those kids will never have a dance that can say, what's your dance, you and your partners. Yeah. There you go. Just, you know, it's just, it's a different world. So did you, did you reach the level of success that you wanted? Do you mean there was lots of competition, you're touring and writing and recording?
Speaker: I was always hopeful that I would go to Broadway, but it didn't happen. But you know what? All kinds of other wonderful things happened. So you can't have everything. But what I have had was full and extraordinary and working with people like Bob Newhart.
Speaker: I mean, what a prince of a guy. How sweet was he? I had never walked on. You see, in our business, the singer precedes the comic. And you're supposed to get the audience all calmed down and ready and stuff. And when he walked on the stage, he said,
Speaker: Thank you so much. Catherine and I are thrilled to be here working and, you know, doing this show for you. He was just the kindest man and he was so funny and he was, the audience went ballistic. I just read one of his jokes actually just the other day. And he said that I don't prefer country music, but I don't disparage those who do. And then he followed it up with, for those who do like country music, disparage means to put down.
Speaker: He was such a gem. Oh, my God. He was such a darling man and smart guy, though. Right. Oh, God. Really, really smart. And look at that dead pan face. Oh, yeah. When he came out, they must have it was like seven or eight minutes. They just applauded and applauded and stop. And he came out on stage and said, what would you like? And he did the he did the one about cigarettes. OK. Yeah. Do you know that one?
Speaker: I don't, not off the top of my head. I'm sure I've seen it. Oh my God, it's hysterical. And I'm standing on stage left, hanging onto the curtain, convulsing and knowing every word that he was saying. And it was just this magical thing. And that man stayed. He gave autographs. He thanked everybody. He was just, he was a walking genius with an unbelievable
Speaker: fabulous disposition. It was a gift. Oh good, I'm glad that you got to work with him. Oh dear God, yes. So I see that in 2012 you got the East Coast Music Awards. Yes, I did. You got the Lifetime Achievement Award and then you sang, actually you sang, Feralda Nova Scotia. I watched that video and that must have been a good experience. Oh it was, it was wonderful. I had no idea. They contacted my daughter and so my daughter said she wanted to come for that
Speaker: And I said, well, that would be wonderful. And there were two.
Speaker: RCMP officers that were standing for hours and and I said, what are you here for? And they said, oh, we're just here taking a look. And, you know, everything would just and as I walked on the stage, they parade me out to the mic. So you didn't know you were getting the lifetime achievement. Well, I knew I was getting the award, but I didn't expect to be escorted out by the RCMP. Very nice. OK, very cool. Yeah, it was wonderful.
Speaker: So when's the last time you sang live you still do it? Do you still sing? Well, you see the bottom line is if if I was a man i'd be able to perform But i'm a woman and they think i'm dead Okay, so I just sing with my girlfriends and I sing every day and um I still I can still sing Yes, I can but they think i'm dead, but that's okay. They're allowed to
Speaker: Well, it's funny because Sylvia, I had Sylvia on and she's 83, 84 now and she has a new album and she said she's just going to keep singing and doesn't care. I don't. Well, I think, um, well, there's somebody that contacted me a couple of weeks ago and, uh, I'm going to have a little chat with him. Maybe that will work because it's hard to, it's hard to let go something that's been such an integral part of your being.
Speaker: You should ask Sylvia what she thinks because she's very forward looking. I was a bit surprised to be honest. She's pretty special, that lady. She's a class act. I've always loved Sylvia. What sacrifices did you make along the way to live the life that you did? You know what? I don't think I really sacrificed. I don't really.
Speaker: I had a balanced kind of life and a career. Anything you would do differently if you could do it again? I don't even know. Funny, I've never even thought about that. I know the nuns would have thought it would have been nice because they asked me 13 times to become a nun and I didn't know how many times I could wait a lot of time.
Speaker: That's not a life for everybody. That's for sure. No, it isn't. No, I was grateful for them, but I didn't want the polka dot bloomers coming to me. Yes, fair enough. Well, good. Well, I mean, thanks for taking the time. We love to have the deeper conversation so you get to explain a few things and share some of your journey because it's so interesting and the stuff that you went through and the things that you shared is really fantastic.
Speaker: Well, God love. Yeah, I was just, it's been a joy and I can't thank you enough for this. I've never done a podcast before. I'm very fashioned. I send thank you notes. I say please and thank you. And I'm awful, awful on the computer. Yes. Well, but I keep trying. I keep trying. I'm trying to, I'm trying to get better.
Speaker: Many thanks to my guests, Catherine McKinnon, for being part of the Liner Notes podcast and sharing some insights from her many musical adventures and accomplishments. And more information on the Famous People Players can be found at famouspeopleplayers .com if you want to check that out. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well. And you can also listen to the artists we have on this show on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And until next time, I'm Dan Ham.
