Transcript
Speaker: Hi, it's Dan here and I wanted to let you know that this is a very special episode of the show. Some glimpses from my chats with four previous guests. You'll hear about 10 minutes of each guest's 60 plus minute conversation, which will give you a small idea of the many topics that we covered. Also, you can listen to the entire conversation at either linernotes .ca or on any podcast platforms. Just search for liner notes revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Enjoy. Today I'm very honored to have as my guest Jamie Vernon, an author, a Toronto musician since 1978. Jamie has been a performer and recording artist as a solo act, as well as a member of Swindled and Moving Targets, the Swedish Fish, the Hounds, Spare Parts and more. So thanks for joining me today. You were influenced by the Beatles and Kiss and Elton John and David Bowie and all the other stuff. There was so much great music back then too.
Speaker: Oh, for sure. I mean, this is the thing is that, you know, it it's back to that old story where what you listen to in a high school was your biggest influences. So I was raised 14, 15, 16 years old. Those bands were all huge, you know, mid 70s. So I thought, you know what? I want to be a rock star, too. Which kind of actually it came about because I've been playing ah House league hockey and I wrecked my knees when I was 14 and my parents said, you know We don't want you sitting around the house doing nothing. So we want you to you know pick an activity. I said buy me a guitar Biggest mistake they ever made
Speaker: I was struggling learning how to play guitar. And then a guy that was in my homeroom walked in one day and he had blue hair and a mohawk and was wearing safety pins and a leather jacket. And we we also had art class together. And he said, you know, our guitar player just quit. We're looking for somebody. Would you be interested? And I just looked at him and I went, show me the way. yeah And I wasn't. I mean, I was cardigans and short. I had short hair, but only because my parents frowned on long hair. Right and I sort of fit in with these guys and he just said, you know get a skinny tie and you're in so there you go And that was that was it. I was in a punk band like by 1980 But back then it was one of those situations You just rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed and got better at what you did
Speaker: And by the following year, we were headlining clubs all over Toronto. Yeah. I was going to ask you about the punk scene because, I mean, that was, you know, Johnny Rotten and those guys were in the mid to, I guess, 75, 76 would be around there. So the punk scene was, there so was there still a scene? Um, by this point, I mean, this is really early eighties. So, um, the first generation of punks, you know, the guys like the clash and the pistols and all that stuff had come and gone. And, uh, we were part of the second generation, which. In Canada, that was DOA out of Vancouver.
Speaker: ah You had Teenage Head in Hamilton. You had the Diodes in Toronto. they were They were kind of at the end of that scene. And we came next, which was the hardcore scene. So we were following bands like you know Black Flag and the Dead Canities and people like that. you know yeah It was basically a whole a whole second scene. And it was fairly short -lived, but it's funny because some you know you talk about The Beatles and Kiss and Elton John, and then you end up in a punk band, which is sort of antithetical to that. Absolutely. And the the irony of the whole thing was, is that I was still in my bedroom writing love songs. since i have I had a girlfriend and there was this whole other side of me. So I actually started a second band that could play my songs. Right. And and they were just pop tunes. once Once the punk band kind of finally self -destructed, that was 1982, I kind of went that way. So in 83, another guy that I'd gone to high school with, Simon Bedford James,
Speaker: Him and I put a band together called Moving Targets. And we were that. We were just pop guys. He was into Bowie and Lou Reed and, you know, Roxy Music, that kind of thing. And, you know, i we both shared the Beatles in common. I was a big Bowie fan as well. I went to see him um yeah at the CNE kind of thing. So we kind of drove that ship. And him and I decided we were going to become the like next Lennon and McCartney. There you go. Yeah. Well, yeah the irony is, and and this will fast forward in the story, I guess um him and I, 40 years later, are in a band now called Mr. Moray. Him and I went our separate ways for decades. And then in 2018, he's like, what are you doing? I said, well, I'm not really in a band right now. And he said, we need a bass player. And I said, OK. And before and moving targets, he was the bass player and I was the guitarist. So we switched roles.
Speaker: And now ah we're about to head into the recording studio to do our third album. And you know it's just been nothing but fun. you know we're so We're all 60 years old now, a bunch of geezers that grew up and went to high school together. And we've been through the wringer, we've been through the war. And now it's like, hey, we just want to have fun now. So I should interject, I guess, here you're also an author and you authored a book about your formative years that's available on Amazon. Life's a Canadian punk who wants guns. Yeah, which was the swindled story. I mean, we were only around for two years, but yeah it was it was eye opening and we were in the middle of a storm. Like I said, it was the hardcore scene and it was kind of near the end of that whole thing. There was one moving targets formed. There was still a bit of it left. The the BFGs, the bunch of effing goofs, they were still around and a few other bands sudden impact were were still kicking and things like that. But um yeah it was kind of the end of a
Speaker: an end of an era. And it was the whole Queen Street circuit as well. And it was being gentrified. And, you know, you had clothing boutiques and the Eaton Center was up and running. And this was becoming becoming sort of a tourist trap. And it got less about the music and more about fashion and more about um the elites moving in and and taking over that and turning everything into turning everything into a yuppiedom, as it were. Yeah, I guess and also the angst driven kind of music. I call it you know nowadays the I hate my parents bands, right? And they come out and there's they're angry and stuff. But once you don't hate your parents anymore, it's kind of the angst kind of goes away and then the music loses a lot of its luster, I guess. Well, for sure. And that's what happened. I mean, Simon and I were beyond that. I was already married by the time Moving Targets um yeah came about in 83. So it was like, no, i've I've got bills to pay in a full time job to worry about. So what are we going to sing about? ah Like, you know, we can't sing about rallying against mom and dad anymore. That just doesn't fly. We we weren't Green Day. we we We didn't still have that kind of um teenage angst going on. We had adult problems to worry about. it yeah There you go.
Speaker: We were putting out our own fanzine every month called Great White Noise. And I thought, you know, I'd rather carry this forward. It's got its own success. I'm getting a lot of great feedback on it. And I partnered with a guy that um ran a recording studio. He'd done all of our recordings for us. And he had a partner who was a tape duplicate guy. He did tape duplicating. So the three of us teamed up in a business venture where I ran the magazine, the studio recorded bands, and then we decided to hit up the Ministry of Culture. And we got funding to put out six compact discs of nothing but Canadian independent music. Nice.
Speaker: So we put out the call. we We ran ads and said, hey, if you want to be on this thing, um, it's $200 just so that you can master the stuff, but there's no other fees. We'll, we'll pay for manufacturing. We'll distribute it to this radio stations. We'll put it in retail. Everybody gets a piece of the pie. So it took off. We got six of them out of the gate by the end of 1993. It was doing really well. yeah Then I had a personal crisis and it all kind of fell apart. And I ended up putting a cover band together with my sister -in -law and we rode that train for 25 years. Well, and we did the cover band because everybody needed money. It was the nineties. The economy was kind of questionable at that point. I was going through a divorce and stuff. So I made cash and that that really worked out well.
Speaker: I'd made a deal with Toronto Sun to write their Canadian music encyclopedia online. Out of that, they got a call from Sam the Record Man saying, hey, we need a Canadian content guy. We think Jamie's the guy that could help us with our new online record store. So Sam the Record Man was going to do basically e -commerce. They'd already done the, you know, they'd done physical stores, which was fine, but they wanted to get into the e -commerce business. So they hired hired me as the Canadian content editor. In the meantime, I thought, you know, I've got quite a bit of money from the city. I should launch Bullseye full time. So I managed to find a business partner who is an American. And him and I had a common interest in a Canadian band called Clattoo. And they're the guys that in 1977, everybody thought were the Beatles. They wrote Calling Occupants, which was the hit for the Harpenders.
Speaker: So I chased after the guys from Clattoo and said, I'm starting up this record label. Do you want to be on my label? And they're like, well, you got no experience, kid. And it's like, well, technically I do. The label's been around 15 years. I said, if I get distribution properly in Canada, will you guys sign on? So I managed to get two out of the three members of the band to sign on as solo artists. And then once their stuff had done really well for us, the third guy went, all right, we'll give you CLAT2 outright. I got the back hat ah got the back catalog off of them in 2001, and I represented those guys for a decade.
Speaker: which was great. re yeah We basically reissued all their albums. We put out a box set and I got them to reunite in 2005 and to put on a concert. which you know and it's one of those it's a It was a cult thing. This was a group that, you know, Prague fans were really big on them. The internet was A beautiful place to very well known. Yeah, and yeah very well liked be the internet gave us life Because getting getting clattoo also landed me the gato back catalog. I got all of sagarini's back catalog ah Moxie honeymoon suite. Um, I got randy bachmann to give me brave belt, which was a precursor to bto Yeah, and he also gave me a rarities collection of guess who stuff
Speaker: right at the point where the guests who reunited, which was in 2000. So it just exploded. It escalated from there. Today, I'm very honored to have as my guest pianist, composer, arranger, and producer, Eddie Bolin. I guess you're considered a veteran. yeah I don't know if I'm a veteran, but you know you you you put your head down and you do as much work as possible. you know Clients come in and you try to make sure that they leave with a smile. So you came here from Grenada, I guess, in 1980. Yes, that's correct. And then got into the Canadian music scene, I'm assuming right away. The day after I arrived, I was at Long McQuaid buying gear. Beautiful. That's what we like to hear. Does that seem like a lifetime ago now? It does. It does. I mean, they've been sort of the backbone of every musician's life and mine as well. So I had some friends who introduced me.
Speaker: to Long Armor Quit and right away I was buying gear and I think the following week I was on the road with a rock band. Wow. Well, that's funny. i was weird just In the preamble, we were talking about that and and you're more of a jazz artist, but you've done, of course, lots of different other things. and It's interesting because people find their way into the music business and and I guess you land where where you feel comfortable and with the music that you do, but then there's all these multiple genres around as well. so yeah were you I was going to ask, if you were trained were you trained as a jazz pianist? Did you have formal training?
Speaker: Yes, yes. my Well, I'll just give you a bit of a sort of background. Yes, please. My dad was a musician. And so I grew up in a house of music. And he had a wreck ah music store. So we sold oh um Yamaha. We were the agent for Yamaha, Kauai, Bo Schindel for Steinway. And all those representatives used to come to the Caribbean to visit with my dad. because we sold so many pianos wow i read it and guitars. He was the agent for Fender. We were the agent for almost everything and sold to the islands around. I mean, Grenada is a very small island. It's just 110 ,000 in the population, but everybody loved music. So we sold a lot of pianos. And um yeah, and my dad actually had a band.
Speaker: and he was the band was signed to Decca, so they did a lot of recordings in their travel to Trinidad and did a lot of recordings, Calypso. So, you know, ah music was in my environment. um I was kind of the last point of sale when my dad would sell a piano. He'd say, son, go demonstrate the piano for the for the family. So that was kind of my upbringing. And um subsequently, i you know, I had a band in Grenada as well. And I used to put on these jazz concerts. The band was called Jazz Connection. nice And I'd rent gear and and put on concerts with my friends. There were several, you know, both Canadians and Americans who lived
Speaker: in Grenada and some one lady was a composer, another one was a classical pianist, another one was a jazz pianist, so I'd go for lessons from them. um So I had a good understanding and and I had a friend of mine who brought a lot of records, jazz records. He lived in the States and um sort of immigrated back to Grenada and he had a lot of jazz records. so He, you know, allowed me to take any record I wanted. So yeah and he had hundreds of albums. So I just dug in and just listened. So then if I may, um there was some political unrest in Grenada and stuff. Is that why you gravitated towards Toronto and ended up there?
Speaker: Well, not really. I kind of wanted to get out, you know, you ah always want to explore North America. I mean, that's the mecca of jazz music. So you want to explore. So and yes, I actually witnessed actually two, up there were there were three major unrest in Grenada and I witnessed, I was there for two of them. I know i was say was a kid and I was there for two of them actually. the Prime Minister who got killed, his office was right opposite my dad's office. So I saw him every day, which is Maurice Bishop. And I mean, he was a friend of the family's and I had a cousin who was oxford also killed in that whole fiasco that happened.
Speaker: you know yeah but yeah so you know it's it That whole period was very dear to me and and you know music was one of the backbones that sort of kept me sane through that turbulent time. at two then time yeah And then when i when I immigrated to Toronto, I um went to York University for a year and a half. so like god really um helped my musical my musical ability and studied with yeah and several you professors there. Nice. Yeah. so Was there some culture shock or were you okay? Yeah. The cold. I remember my the immigration officer saying, what are you got are you mad? You're coming to this country, you're living on the equator and you leave the country. I'm like, yeah, I want to go on the road, man.
Speaker: I want to freeze. That sounds cool. you know But you know what? You just embrace it. that i It really doesn't bother me. you know You just dress warm. When you came here, were you were you intent on being a full -time musician? Is that what you decided to do? Or was there some kind of defining moment where you thought, okay, I'm go i'm going to make my life in Toronto and I'm going to be a musician? No, i just I knew that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a musician, and there was nothing that was going to stand in the way of that. like My second week here, a friend of mine, who's a keyboard player as well, and he's from Grenada, had a gig, and he couldn't do it, and he offered it to me. And um I had no idea where I was going. Actually, the gig was in Sonia, and these two guys picked me up in a van.
Speaker: And on the way up, they decided to make a set list. And then one of the song, actually they said, ah let's why don't we do cocaine? And I was like, what? I mean, I i have no idea. had no idea that there was a song called Cookie. Yeah, Culture Shock is, is this you know, so I was a little freaked out until they started explaining to me that, yeah, there's, you know, Eric Clapton has a song called Cookie. yeah we So, you know, that, I started, yeah, I started right there.
Speaker: And then the word got around where I was in town and then I started getting hired for all kinds of gigs. R &B gigs, funk gigs, you know, rock gigs, reggae. I did a lot of reggae stuff, yeah some calypso stuff, you know, being from that part of the world, i'm a lot of calypso -nions. Yeah. and and And, you know, and then going to school. and and Also, i I got a job in a piano store because I grew up with my my dad you know repairing pianos and I'm a piano technician as well. Nice. so That was yeah a side job. Good for you. But that's what I wanted to ask you about the genres because i mean you you really have have what you call Caribbean infused jazz tracks, but then reggae, calypso, adult contemporary, and then all the rock pop stuff. You can't ignore that because it's everywhere.
Speaker: Yes, so I mean, this this was a backdrop to my life. I mean, jazz, contemporary jazz was one of the things that I loved. You know, it was the time of, you know, George Benson. Spyro Jaira, Grover Washington, you know, and those, some of those tracks were, but they they were on the pop charts, you know what I mean? Back in the day, I remember playing those, you know, some songs in clubs and people are dancing to, you know, contemporary jazz stuff. So it was, it ah that was a big part of my life. I loved the straight ahead as well too. Oscar Peterson was one of my favorite piano players, my dad's as well.
Speaker: You know, I listen to all of those things and I play all of them. I mean my sort of directory. was contemporary jazz. And that's kind of what I've done as Eddie Bullen. But as Eddie Bullen as a producer, I produce you almost 250 albums. Yes, I agree. It's all different genres. and So it was it's very rewarding. I guess in the Caribbean, the radio stations just play everything. They don't they don't discriminate. Oh, OK. You hear a country song, then you hear an R and &B song, then you hear a funk song. and
Speaker: Oh, interesting. A Calypso song. then So, you know, it depends as you tell if you like it and they'll play it. For you, you have you wear a bunch of different hats, but if you're a producer, that's a bit of a different ballgame than if you're playing and recording your own stuff, right? Because you're you're trying to interpret and and produce something else, and it might be a slightly different flavor from what you would do, but you're trying to get the best product you can from that particular flavor. Yeah, that's correct. And usually when I'm producing, I try to make sure that I am a portal, that the artists, whoever, if it's an instrumentalist or if it's a vocalist, they can go through me. And I i try i try not to put my stamp on everything. You know what I mean? I try to make sure that it's a bit transparent. So sometimes people hear things and they go, well, that was you. And I'm like, yeah, that was me.
Speaker: you know, I don't know you like that. And I'm like, I know, because yeah I don't want to, you know, I think you date yourself if you put the stamp on everything, you know, everything sounds alike, everybody sounds alike. So I've changed stuff up so that you don't, you don't hear very few people that can pick out something that it's done by me. Today I'm very honored to have as my guest musician, composer, engineer, producer, and just all around music biz guy, Dean Hages. My argument with the EU with regarding the AI act that that they've been working their way through. but I mean, they've been selling us the recording button for over a hundred years.
Speaker: No but a lot of like the drum machines you know from the boss you know dr rhythm and read up to the lindrum machines and what not are just a machine is it there in the corner of the studio yes they have power on them but unless we go over to them turn them on and actually program them and what not and work with them. you know they're just a machine so the way i describe i know is that it's like a thousand machines within and but it does not do anything on its own until we go and actually prompted and with the more the pro level i don't know if you've worked with it but i wanted to learn about it so i i've gone on and and been made myself a member of a variety of them to test them out and where you can actually select which instrumentations that you want and to what degree and what level and
Speaker: you know, what styles and whatnot, and then you can, you know, limit it down. So all my favorite bands, I don't know about you, but all of them are are minimalistic, you know. you know from Russian ZZ Top and whatnot. A lot of them are just like a three -piece. You don't have a lot of musicianship going on. You have space in between the music. Again, not filling up all those holes. you know So i put I pushed AI into the wee hours of the morning and discovered that um as it could not render anymore because it was getting tired, like it's like a child, um it would tell me, oh you can't do any more renders. I can't do any more. I'd say, well, do one more.
Speaker: 6 .30, 7 o 'clock in the morning rolls around, and it's pushing out the most bizarre music I've ever heard, but it's because I limited it, because I pushed it you know to that match like we would as a producer. That's my take on that. I was going to ask you about AI because so the thing with AI is that to to me, the the problem I see is that the consumer is really what matters, and if they hear something and you say, well, that was generated by AI, they're not really going to care. right Because ah the the consumer likes what they like. you know If they if they ah eat a piece of cake and they like the cake, they don't really care that much who made it or if a robot made it or a human being made it, they just like the cake. It tastes good and it's a good cake. So that's part of the problem I see. And then also people who have no musical talent will be able to sort of crank out stuff
Speaker: And they don't even have to sing well. And the mix parameters can be you can borrow the mix parameters from Steely Dan Camp by a thrill or something and just make your album sound similar to that. What do you think about that? I agree to a great portion of what you're saying. um But as far as um what we like, yeah, if you like it, you you do like it. If you don't, you don't. and you You do consume it. You don't consume it. I think the AI is only as good as what we're training it to do. And ah your point being. ah finally with with regards to talentless or whatnot. I don't know if you know this, but Michael Jackson did not play an instrument. right yeah Not a specific instrument, but whenever he stepped into a room, everybody was intimidated because the one instrument he had from his soul was his body and his hands and and his his mouth. And he was able, whenever he worked with greats like Stevie Wonder, Lionel Richer, whoever he was working with,
Speaker: his tonality his his rhythm came from deep within his soul and came out of his what he did have which is the instruments of his body so if we look at for instance the music styles of of rap i usually call a lot of the producers in that the loop manager to grabbing a loop of, This has been made by somebody else which is which has been machine and crafted into into loops and ah and a library of them and they drag those over. You know into a cutter window on a doll a digital audio workstation for those of you don't know that term and then they have a vocalist who comes in who may or may not be.
Speaker: You know specifically instrument trains but that didn't stop biggie you know from making his splash in the world or any of the great rap artists you know who have made a ah huge impact on the music industry and and finally now are recognized at the Grammys. Well, no, that's, I mean, that's a good point, right? People just make, but ah that stuff, I don't know where you're at with it, but a lot of that stuff is problem. You know, it's, it's, it's generated in a box. It's over a loop. It's over a drum machine talking some mindless keyboard pattern. And it really doesn't touch my soul. It doesn't do much for me. I guess it's where you come from in the the soul of music, because if you ah give it a chance, um, which I have on a great level, I know some of it can be quite,
Speaker: toxic, you know, where it's come from. But a lot of people who are coming out with rap, you know, on the street have gone through, you know, a very harsh, hard hard um bottom of the you know the opposite end of the scale of you know, society and and opportunities, fathers are gone and you're taken by society and put into jail and and whatnot. And at the end of the day, it's the message that's coming from them and the experience that they have that they relate to the people who are consuming it. yeah You know, it's not all for my taste, but I'll tell you,
Speaker: Run dmc and and when they joined up with the rose smith you know walk walk this way and what not you know i love that one that that came out as it was cool it's a selective kind of of thing you know it's not all for not all styles of music for for all people but certainly i'm, There's no shortage of so of diamonds and gold on them. is there yeah Well, no fair point because so you know ah there's always the cream that rises to the top and you think, well, that's pretty cool. You know, like Funky Cold Medina when that came out, I thought, oh yeah, that's pretty cool. yeah I'm talking about the sort of people with no sort of musical talent or even even sensibility, just with a keyboard and a drum machine.
Speaker: putting out kind of stuff that's just kind of mindless fodder. It's not really music to me. mean You listen to Kansas and Styx and Van Halen and the bands that really, you know, I mean, well you know, that's what i'm I'm old school. So that's my thing. Right. But okay. So I would compare that in the, in the, in the cooking world, like from, you know, somebody who's in the pits, the jerk pit, you know, that everybody likes to go to kind of thing and eat that, that down to earth food, or you can go to, you know, the scatter moosh, you know, in Toronto and and eat like the best French cuisine, you know, so I agree on that. So can't like I mean, back then they they had a vocal arrangements like, you know, if there was five guys in the band, five of them were singing. Unbelievable. Just so good. Yeah. Yeah. And bands like the Commodores, like how do you how do you get over, you know, the rhythms and structure and and whatnot? that They were just yeah I would call them naturalists, like not only they were born
Speaker: um with a desire to learn and and to play an instrument, but they have like this soul connection to the instrument and to the the music that they're presenting you know and performing. So why are these guys you know able to connect to a funk soul breakdown more so than, you know and and reggae artists, like if you break down reggae, how all the parts that they're playing are incredibly simple. But when you put it all together, You know, I defy a lot of creators to actually put a band together and play authentic reggae. it it aint Yeah. So good point. And so, so your thought on it would be that AI is never going to replace the human soul in a way that would ever be, you know, overtake the human soul, I guess. Is that fair? I'm not sure if I would, I would look into the future and say it will never, but I think as a parent, because the the way AI is, is, has been brought in and released to society.
Speaker: is that we are actually training them. So rather than just leaving UMG, Universal Music Group, Sony, and Warner and whatnot, because they've been doing it for years. We've just been told about it now. It would it would have been machine learning before. It's now been labeled AI, right? i see okay right So now that AI has been labeled that, It was, it I took it as my opportunity to be part of the the teaching process of the AI to give it soul. So I pushed it into its uncomfortability. Will it ever replace? I don't know if it will go that far. I mean, I don't want to be right or wrong in in that to be honest with you, fair enough yeah you know, but, um, do I enjoy it? I'd love to share some, I will share some with you as I complete the the projects.
Speaker: that I'm working on, but I mean, they, I don't conform, uh, as you can probably tell in a lot of ways to society anyways, in the music industry. And when I, I tried to go outside of, um, what would be considered the norm yeah no with music. we in that yeah yeah And I don't like to just conform and say, okay, I am a, I am a this, I am a country artist. I am a this, I am a that artist, you know? i yeah i sit I sit down. I'm i'm inspired. and And when I'm inspired, I like to go with it and write to completion. Today, I'm very honored to have as my special guest multi -award winning blues recording artist and Canadian icon Sue Foley.
Speaker: Did you have stars in your eyes? Did you think I'm going to be a rock star one day or did you just kind of take it as it did as it came? It's funny. I never thought I wanted to be a rock star per se. like i That's not really my my goal. It wasn't my goal. And when I discovered blues and as a teen, that that that became my discipline musically. And that's really the antithesis of being a rock star per se. It's more about connecting with an audience. I was always fascinated by clubs, like actually. um Playing in clubs because I think there's just something so immediate about the vibe of it It's so kind of romantic and I don't know it just struck me as I remember reading like I've read about a lot of rock stars I remember reading ah Biography on Bruce Springsteen when I was a teenager and they were talking about playing in clubs and I was just like clubs clubs clubs That sounds so cool. You know, yeah, I just so sounded so cool. You ended up in Austin quite young, right? You got into touring with I guess mark hummel hummel is it
Speaker: Mark Hummel, who's a Bay Area harmonica player, yeah heart my whole band and took us into the States, which for Canadians isn't easy to do. It's still not easy to do. Absolutely true. But getting stateside was really important to us because that's where it was really happening. It's not to discount Canada or Canadian blues or this and that, but it was really happening in the States. Everybody was from down there. All the big legends were from down there, and that's where we wanted to be. 100%. I've told told people that myself too. If you're going to have a like a bluegrass band, like you're not going to be making a living in Vancouver. You need to go where those people are and that's what you did. But it must have been quite surreal for you. i mean You started playing guitar in your early teens, I guess, and then within less than 10 years, probably eight years, you're living in Austin? Yes. That must have been kind of surreal for you looking around going, what?
Speaker: It was beyond surreal. I mean, it was real. It was real. And it was where I wanted to go. I mean, I wanted to go to Austin more than anywhere. As soon as I started learning about what was going on down in Austin, it was like we need to go down to Austin, not just to the states, but we need to go to Texas. We need to go to Austin specifically. There's something going on in Austin. yeah and And there was. Yeah. And you make a good point about lots of Canadian artists try to go down there and some of them do and they have sort of marginal success, but you were able to sort of ingratiate yourself to those people and and put yourself into that scene and become part of that scene. So that that's a second cool step to take, not just going down there, but then to immerse yourself in that scene and and be successful in it.
Speaker: and I didn't just go down there. I was brought down there by Clifford Antone, who owned Antone's nightclub and record company. so And the Antone's nightclub was the famous club where everything was going on. That's where Stevie Ray came out of and the fabulous Thunderbirds. I mean, we knew all about this place. yeah And it was him that brought me down because I sent him a demo tape. That was how I got in and got the respect right away. Because if Clifford brought you down, it's like, well, yeah. You know what I mean? like It's like you don't have to climb through the ranks on Sixth Street. You're playing, all of a sudden you're playing Antone with you know sitting in with Albert Collins and stuff like that. and i likeness It was pretty heavy duty, but that made a big difference in my life. Sounds like Austin was the right place for you to be with your vibe and and the the blues that you preferred. You were in the right place.
Speaker: Yes. Well, the interesting thing about the 80s, and i this i'm I'm looking at the late 80s, but it started in the mid 70s to the mid 80s before Stevie Ray Vaughan broke through. and Austin was developing this sound. you know They had these young hippie kids and they were all trying to play blues. And then Clifford Anstown started bringing down people from Chicago. And this is, again, nobody was hiring these guys in America. you know Muddy Waters was just kicking around. He wasn't doing big festivals. and They were just like happy to come down and play a gig in Texas. These older Texas, these young Texas kids and these older black musicians from Chicago, they started playing together. and There was a new blues sound coming out of that. and It also came up from Louisiana because
Speaker: There was a lot of Zydeco and Cajun stuff coming up through Louisiana, Swamp Pop, and that was mixing. So Austin, at that time, had a new blues sound, which it's in blues is such a traditional music that it's astounding. There would be a new sound coming out, you know? yeah But it was really distinct. And you know when Stevie Ray Vaughan came out, that was a new sound. And everybody was freaking out, because they're like, what is this? This guitar player is... insane, so fantastic, but it's also the vibe of it. like What is this? Everybody was playing like that and in Austin. So to come to Austin, you know at for me as as a young teenager, I was like, well, that's happening now. that's ah That's not like going trying to dig up something from the 40s in Chicago. That's like, this is new. This is wild. This is alive being born as we speak. And I'm like, that's where we need to go. So, and you got to ride the wave, right? Cause you, you put out younger old blues. That was 92 that came out. Yeah. So you were riding that wave, right? You were on the crest of the wave or the end of the wave or whatever it is sort of towards the end. It's, I mean, it's still going, but it's, it's, you know, that sound is sort of developed now. It's not really, I mean, blues is still always changing and evolving. Yeah.
Speaker: So you recorded that album in Austin, and do you have a producer there? Yeah, I mean, I was produced by two of the best house musicians at Antown. So it was Derek O 'Brien, great guitar player, and George Raines, George Big Beat Raines, one of the great shuffle drummers. They produce my first two albums. Yeah, very cool. And so what struck me about it, I listened to the whole album and it's it's it's raw. like it's It's got that raw energy and that's what brought you to the dance, right? You just get up there, you're real, you're raw, you just play. And it's not overproduced, it's not you know there's not tons of overdubs and layers and this and that, harmonies and horns like you were talking about. It's it's just it's just you and and a band and a cool vibe. Yeah, we're we're very straightforward. I'm still like that.
Speaker: ah no But I was sort of trained like that. You just play it real and and get up on stage and play pretty clean into an amp and put it all in there. You know, I always think like a guitar player. Yeah, fair enough. And then I had to sing. I eventually had to sing. I didn't want to sing. I was i was very shy. And it wasn't the thing I wanted to do. But people told me, hey, if you don't sing, you've got to try singing. They say, if you don't sing, you're going to be, you know, you better be one hell of a guitar player. that's That's what they told me. Well, yeah. And then you'd be beholden to some prima donna singer too, perhaps. Exactly. Right. And then you're, so yes, I'm glad I sing. And I was in the front of my own group. Live playing is really important to what we do and.
Speaker: an important part of my job and I adapted as a as a parent. you know my son had to My son and I had a different lifestyle than a lot of you know just a family that everybody's home every night. you know Sometimes mom would have to be away, sometimes I'd take them with me. But we adapted, I raised a great kid. and yeah It wasn't easy to be married. You know, that was a little more challenging, actually, for some reason. Yeah, fair enough. But it's you know, what it's you know what it is. It's hard to meet people who understand what you do and then unless there are other musicians and then there that has its own dynamic. So I think for women in this business, it's very complicated confusing.
Speaker: For men, I don't know, if for men it seems easier like guys will just get a woman and and she could be anything. She could be a nurse, she could be ah have a job. But for some reason women musicians always end up with other musicians and that becomes its own interesting dynamic. yeah And it can it can be challenging. Well, I mean, obviously, you know, you're if you're attractive and you're around other guys, they're going to be attracted to you. so that's But then that brings up a whole other complicated sort of set of circumstances too. So it's it's I was going to ask you about being a female, how that plays into it. And you've kind of brought that up. And I think it's it it helps you maybe in one sense that you're good looking and charming and and you're a female, so the guys are attracted to you. But on the other side, there's a price you pay for that.
Speaker: you know I've been in the business my whole life. so i've i had a I have radar that I don't even know that I have. I can pick stuff out and i I'm really quick. I'm really, really intuitive and really quick as far as people go. You have to be. It's a survival mechanism. but My next project is a project on women guitar players. and um so I've done a deep dive into talking to women about their experiences in the business. and how they manage to have careers and have families. And you know that's all really interesting things. And they are they sort of are unique to the female experience. you know that the The musical thing per se, you know you and I talk about guitars, it's like talking to anybody about guitars. you know yeah Talk about technique or guitars, its it's like yeah I could be anything. But when you're talking about experiences and you know how you stay safe on the road or how you manage relationships or how you raise a child and being female, that's
Speaker: ah whole other thing. Well yeah and it's funny because I've i've played with female artists over the years and and there's a whole range of them too. like Like some female artists are just one of the guys. They drink and smoke and swear and they just act like one of the guys and that seems a bit odd because it seems like a bit of a compromise to me where you're trying to fit in so badly that you're trying to be one of the guys and then some of the others are very shy and sort of diminutive and they they stay in the room and they don't want to associate much and they're very wary of and anything that's going on. They've seen the whole gamut. Yeah, you're right. And so I'm definitely one of the guys. Yeah, okay. i was But I grew up with older brothers and I was one of the boys with them. So it being one of the boys in the band was not a big deal to me. It it seemed very natural.
Speaker: to hang out with the guys and do what the guys did. for up to ah Up to a point. I didn't have do everything the guys did. There is a boundary there. Thanks for checking out these short bits from my much longer conversations with previous Linernotes guests. Don't forget you can listen to each full interview at either linernotes .ca or on any podcast platforms. Just search for Linernotes revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers. Until next time, I'm Dan Hare.
