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S3: E4: Arty and Will: Marathons of the Heart
84 Plays17 hours ago
In this incredibly raw and beautiful episode of The Miscarriage Rebellion, host Sam Payne brings listeners a vital, deep-dive discussion around the realities of compound grief, partner dynamics, and true community action. Guests Arty and Will join the show to share their profound journey of enduring five consecutive early pregnancy losses—including a deeply isolating termination for medical reasons during the height of pandemic lockdowns—before ultimately welcoming their daughters, Poppy and Chloe.
Will and Arty break down the unique complexities of navigating different grieving styles under one roof, highlighting the delicate balance between Will’s quiet internal processing and Arty's need for outward verbal expression. The conversation takes a powerful look at how early pregnancy loss acts as a major catalyst for mental health outcomes, with Will sharing his decision to walk away from a high-stress corporate career after experiencing severe panic attacks.
This episode is an essential celebration of how the couple transformed their private heartache into a visible beacon of hope. They reflect on the legacy of Will’s extraordinary endurance fundraiser, 3 Rowing Marathons for 3 Miscarriages/Early Pregnancy Losses, which raised an astounding $20,000 for Pink Elephants during a critical time. It is a must-listen for anyone seeking a true reflection of partner support, parenting after loss, and the power of rewriting your own story.
Together, they discuss:
- The Compound Toll: Navigating the physical, psychological, and emotional exhaustion of five back-to-back pregnancy losses.
- Opposites in Grief: How an extroverted partner and an introverted partner learn to communicate when processing the exact same tragedy.
- The Corporate Perspective Shift: Will’s decision to leave the corporate space after severe anxiety attacks to prioritise a simpler life with his family.
- Rowing in the Dark: The grueling physical and emotional reality of completing 42km rowing marathons from home during isolation.
- Schoolroom Conversations: Arty and Will’s distinct hopes for introducing reproductive health and pregnancy loss into school curriculums to eliminate future shock.
Help us Celebrate 10 Years & Donate: Help us show up for the next decade. Your donation ensures we can continue providing a circle of support for families impacted by early pregnancy loss. Donate here.
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone. Connect with our services:
- Live Chat with Peer Support
- Online Communities
- Pregnancy Loss helpline delivered by PANDA
- Circle of support
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport on instagram.
- For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
Recommended
Transcript
Celebrating a Decade of Impact: Breaking the Silence on Miscarriage
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to season three of the Miscarriage Rebellion. I am really pleased to have two very special guests with me today, Will and Artie, who we will introduce properly in a minute.
00:00:16
Speaker
As you know, this is season three. Season three is all around celebrating a decade of impact, a decade of making a difference, a decade of showing up for those who need us to show up for them, when it can often feel like no one else understands or gets what you're going through because for too long we haven't talked about the experiences of miscarriage, pregnancy loss, fertility
Artie and Will's COVID Experience and Fundraising Efforts
00:00:38
Speaker
challenges. For too long the experience has been shrouded in silence, stigma and shame and Pink Elephants is really proud to change that, to break the silence and to make a difference for those that need us to the most. Today i have the amazing Artie and Will with me.
00:00:56
Speaker
I've known Artie and Will now, we were just trying to calculate, it's like a good six or seven years. It was during COVID when I first came across a fundraiser on our page where Will had decided he was going to row three marathons, and I say row, as in literally row them, as a fundraiser to make a difference and to represent the losses that Artie and himself had been going through.
Artie's Journey Through Miscarriages and COVID Challenges
00:01:22
Speaker
Welcome, Artie and Will. Thank you. Thank you so much. Great to be here. Awesome. I'm going to start by taking us back there in that moment to the experiences of pregnancy loss, which is what connects us. It's a thread that joins us. I wonder if, Artie, you could share a little bit about your experience with the listeners.
00:01:43
Speaker
You know, um so obviously it's it's been a journey. um You know, we have two beautiful girls now, which is, you know, it feels like...
00:01:55
Speaker
almost a long time ago where we were in this in this world and it was our constant world um so it was around yeah six years ago we had our first miscarriage um we were we had no idea. you know I was 10 weeks pregnant, I you know had some bleeding and all of a sudden I was in the middle of the night, I came home from work originally that day and um yeah I sat there and Will and I were like, no, no, no, this can't be it, this can't be it And then I woke up in the middle of the night, I had pains. I called the um health line because I had no idea
00:02:33
Speaker
what to do um and they less said go to the hospital straight away and we went to the hospital and unfortunately that was our first miscarriage. We had no idea, we weren't prepared for anything like that. We got you know pregnant straight away. like we had been together for...
00:02:51
Speaker
10 years, more than 10 years. We'd been together, I think, for like 15 years maybe. um Yeah, so it was it was pretty rude shock. Then we had that happen um and then subsequently we had two more um and then we had a baby that we had to medically abort, which she unfortunately had anencephaly. and then we had our fifth miscarriage just before our daughter Poppy.
Resilience and Support from Pink Elephants
00:03:21
Speaker
um And it was was very ah it was a hard time. um We went through ups and downs as a couple. we were there for each other, but I think in terms of well where where we were at, um you know it was COVID times um and you know Pink Elephant was something that
00:03:44
Speaker
you know we we didn't know about before and then we found you guys and you helped us extremely yeah yeah yeah there's a lot five losses back to back without much support that must have been incredibly incredibly hard to kick yourself up and to keep going i think that deserves an acknowledgement in itself and yes those listening now you got there you've got Poppy and Chloe, and its you are one of the couples that I love talking about because there's that sense of so much hope.
00:04:18
Speaker
And you carried so much in that period and you still picked yourself up. And I think what's not often shared enough is the resilience, the bravery that we are willing to put ourselves through this again and again because ultimately we just want to hold a baby in our arms and we deserve so much more.
Navigating Grief as Partners: Artie and Will's Story
00:04:36
Speaker
Will, what was it like for you? What's the partner's experience um It's strange because you want to... Be as supportive as possible, but also protecting yourself throughout that process as well. um I've said it before that it's the first time as a couple you learn how to grieve together and how you can provide support for each other throughout that process. We so often help each other grieve a loss of a parent or a grandparent, but it's the first time that we were grieving for the exact same purpose.
00:05:15
Speaker
um And it was – there were times where it was very difficult because we are almost polar opposites in Artie being very ah extroverted and me being introverted and trying to find how to best and most compatibly grieve that process together. um There's a level of guilt that you have – And I think that's just bred through the uncertainty on not being able to provide answers for your partner um as to why these miscarriages reoccur.
00:05:52
Speaker
um And you just want to help. ah COVID was ah was a very interesting time because we were isolated from those who could potentially help us.
00:06:06
Speaker
ah And again, that's why we're so thankful of the Pink Elephant Support Network because there's a digital resource for this information. Yeah.
00:06:18
Speaker
We were actually recommended it by the guys from Love to Dream and gra Gavin and Hannah. And that was probably the best advice that someone had been able to give me was to find other people and create that network um to a support each other throughout that process.
00:06:43
Speaker
But as a partner...
00:06:46
Speaker
There's a void that you're trying to fill for both yourself and your partner through the process. Yeah, and I've heard that so many times, that duality of just wanting to be there and to fix this for your partner because you're watching them in such incredible pain and you want to make it all right for them, but then also trying to find space for your own grieving style because often we do grieve differently, right?
00:07:10
Speaker
Yeah. How did you navigate conversations and learning that you grieve differently? What was that like you both?
Grieving Differently and the Importance of Communication
00:07:18
Speaker
Well, I think... We talked about it because, um you know, the day, obviously with a fourth um the the baby that in carefully, I was in that room by myself.
00:07:29
Speaker
It was like the loneliest day of my life. Having to call Will downstairs and tell him that our baby had something, an issue. um And then going home...
00:07:41
Speaker
um We had to go to an obstetrician that we didn't know because that's where they sent you. And that person actually let Will in because at the time no one was allowed to go with you. um And then we went to our OB.
00:07:57
Speaker
um And at the time, for me, I love people around me. And I couldn't have anyone around us. I like obviously had Will, who is my guy, and you know he was there for me. But I couldn't go for a walk with my friends. I couldn't go and see anybody, especially in that time where i wanted people to come over. We were getting like flowers and all these things. And the flowers, it was so beautiful.
00:08:27
Speaker
But I just it kind of, I was sitting in my loneliness. But for Will... He is someone that grieves internally, I think. i Yeah, I withdraw.
00:08:39
Speaker
um So COVID was actually better for the grieving process for me. um It was also really reassuring to see how many people would disregard the lockdowns to come and and spend time with us um individually and and socially distanced. But and there were times where Artie wants to pull everyone around her um and talk to people on the phone and whatnot, whereas I just want to shut down from that whole situation.
00:09:13
Speaker
um And that's just how we internalise things. Artie generally will speak her thoughts, whereas I will think my thoughts a little bit more.
00:09:26
Speaker
I that's a really beautiful way of explaining it. One of you speaks and the other one thinks and internalizes. And it is actually really normal and for anyone listening today. You've got different grieving styles. You've got intuitive and you've got instrumental. And you can actually move through them.
00:09:40
Speaker
It's not necessarily that you stay in the same one the whole time either. And I think what's really beautiful about you guys is you found a way to communicate with each other and to understand that whilst it doesn't feel like that person is grieving in the same way, they are still grieving and we're in this together and that's what's really important.
Will's Career Shift and Embracing a Simpler Life
00:09:58
Speaker
Will, I want to talk a little bit about your decision to change careers and everything else that kind of happened around the losses for you and kind of what led you to that moment. Yeah, um well I was in the corporate space and and had always been in the corporate space up until...
00:10:16
Speaker
it would be our second miscarriage, I believe. um i found I was... i was having a lot of anxiety and panic attacks um and that environment just wasn't suitable for me anymore and in telling the employer at the time that this just wasn't going to be suitable for me i felt that i was letting them down because i couldn't give them my best um and
00:10:50
Speaker
it wasn't fair on me to then continue to try and fake it um and so it gave me that opportunity to kind of lean into my emotions thankfully i was able to have a chat with with some uh counselors throughout that process but i was just finding myself having panic attacks um And, again, when you're in a position where it's heightened stress at home um and then going into a ah slightly high-performance environment, it just wasn't conducive. um
00:11:25
Speaker
I decided that I'd leave the corporate space. I now mow lawns for a living. I couldn't be happier. yeah and It was a real perspective shift on what I want to do. um And the long-term goal of I want to be able to spend as much time with my kids as they grow up.
00:11:46
Speaker
And that window of them actually wanting to spend time with me is going to be short. um And i want to be there as much as possible as opposed to being stuck behind behind a desk and a computer.
00:12:00
Speaker
And there were trade-offs, there are massive trade-offs in making that decision and trying to live a simpler life. um But it has definitely made a huge difference. We're calmer, we're more relaxed in the way we kind of approach parenting as well.
00:12:19
Speaker
um And it means that we can actually be a bit more of a united front at home in terms of sharing the workload. Thank you. I think it's really powerful when we acknowledge how challenging this can be for our mental health. I know that my journey of losses led me to postpartum anxiety and a whole journey that I don't think at the time I realised that the lack of support and the compound grief of loss after loss, what that did to me and where that led me. And I think it's really important that we acknowledge and share
00:12:52
Speaker
that how difficult these can be and that it can link to poor mental health outcomes and that we have to kind of advocate for ourselves still because there isn't the support and the connection from external systems on that so I'm really grateful I think it's powerful when a partner shares how deeply and profoundly this can impact you as well and I hope that any men partners listening to this that hear this know that there is support out there for you you don't have to go through this alone so thank you for sharing that I really genuinely mean that Artie, when we went for that walk around Centennial Park, what was that like for you?
Finding Purpose Post-Loss with Pink Elephants
00:13:28
Speaker
yeah like um I suppose we spoke about the other day how I was in the depths of, is this ever going to work? Am I ever going to have the family I want? And I think being with you and walking and You just were so warm and loving and just brought me into your world. And I think that's what Will and I were talking about. Without you, we wouldn't have been able to, you know, put our grief into, you know, obviously the marathons and all that. It gave us that that purpose. And I think that's what we felt. If we can help one person at least...
00:14:08
Speaker
it will help us. But yeah, I remember walking with you and and kind of feeling like I was normal because at that time, i think I had only one friend that had a miscarriage and we were a lot younger and we probably weren't there to support her as much as we wanted to. So I think your love and kindness and just taking me under your wing almost, you know, um it was really, really helpful and knowing that there was support and Yeah, it was it was beautiful. Like, yeah, I remember it so clearly. Yeah.
00:14:42
Speaker
It's like women and partners that I've connected with over the last 10 years, and you guys have a special place in my heart, and I hope you know that. But, yeah, that walk around Centennial Park, that's what Almost Pink Elephants as well is. It's that peer support. It's being in the company of someone else who just gets it. We don't need to explain ourselves. We don't need to censor our comments. We can talk about things like – Why did my baby die, but yet my best friend's still pregnant? Like all those things that generally, if you say outside of circles of people who've been this, they don't necessarily get it, right? So yeah, thank you as well.
00:15:15
Speaker
I want to now move to that purpose element because I think that's so powerful. And that is actually an element of instrumental grieving. Those needing to do something to feel like they can make a sense out of it. And that's why Pink Elephants exists. This was it for me in the depths of my grief. I had to do something to make a difference and make sense.
Rowing Marathons: Raising Awareness and Funds
00:15:33
Speaker
so why marathons why row i remember reading this one and being like what is he doing amazing it's pretty stupid um was epic i'd made a stupid comment and ended passing comment around the lunch table at work one day being like how hard could a marathon on an ergrower actually be um granted i'd never actually rode on one um
00:15:59
Speaker
um and then that compounded into let's just try to raise as much awareness as possible for for miscarriages i knew it was going to hurt um and i knew it was going to suck every which way but you just put up with it um Yeah, it then manifested into doing three rows because at the time we had ah we'd lost three babies um and there was just a point of being able to honour both Arty, um the babies and also all those who have who' have experienced miscarriages and early pregnancy losses.
00:16:38
Speaker
um I started training. um Pretty impractically, but figured it out that you just have to sit and pull on the thing and do that for 42 kilometres.
00:16:52
Speaker
ah So went to it and then COVID hit. um We were fortunate enough to her be lent ergrower so that I could still do it.
00:17:02
Speaker
at home um and on the first row we were in full isolation so i had to do it via skype um and incidentally that week and that row was probably the hardest um that week artie had her fourth miscarriage as well so i mean That was a hard row physically and mentally.
00:17:28
Speaker
um think we both broke down a lot at the end. But that idea of feeling the pain, um it doesn't compare to the emotional pain that Artie and all the other women and their partners um go through.
00:17:50
Speaker
And I had to do it three times. um I think the joy, the the highlight of the rowing was on the third row and we were able to have people around us to do it as well. um And Artie actually did the last kilometre of the third marathon.
00:18:11
Speaker
She was recovering. she' Coming in the last day. So she got to experience some of it as well. yeah But we were fortunate enough to raise um around $20,000 for Pink Elephants.
00:18:23
Speaker
um And it was the ability to kind of create more of a conversation um and thankful that that conversation has continued.
00:18:34
Speaker
And that was 2021-ish, 2020, 2021, I right? Yeah, 2021. And so we were tiny then, right, in terms of revenue and size. We were doing our best to grow. I've chatted to Katrina on this podcast as well, our chairperson. We'd had to make decisions to hibernate some of our programs so that we could carry on. But yet we were seeing... There's 63% increase in demand for support because of COVID and that we were digital so people could reach us. So i just, like that $20,000 was huge.
00:19:07
Speaker
It was huge in so many ways, not just monetary value. I want to acknowledge that it was absolutely a huge portion of revenue that helped us stay afloat during COVID and that's why we're still here today.
Creating Conversations: Pink Elephants' Role in Support
00:19:17
Speaker
But it was huge in so many ways for me because I saw all impact on the partner as well the way that you had decided to show up in this way the way that you'd both come together with your family and it was a way of having your losses seen do you remember i think what i might have been the second or third one and there was quite a few people that had come they were supporting you Because it was meant to be in a gym and then it was at your house and they were in and out and I was watching it from Skype as well because I live like, what, an hour on the other side of Sydney and I don't think we could travel even that far. i think maybe we were still in the 5K bubble or something. But yeah, it was it was profound. Like, what you did was incredible. Like, and I want to acknowledge that.
00:19:55
Speaker
Like, both of you, what you came together and made from your losses but the difference for other people by showing up in that way. Like, it's always going to be a big part of the 10-year history for me. Thank you. Caliphants.
00:20:07
Speaker
Thank you. And for us as well, just seeing your friends, your family and the wider community that people we didn't know were donating and and hearing about it. And it was pretty incredible that I think it goes to show how many lives...
00:20:24
Speaker
pink elephant has touched and how many more yeah and i think that creating that conversation and kind of normalizing the ability to vocalize the grief that you go through in this whole process um it's something that has grown exponentially since then as well um hearing stories about aunties of aunties who had miscarriages 50 years ago and still bear the scars of that.
00:20:54
Speaker
um And then even as recently as the other day with Carl and Sarah yeah talking about Sarah's pregnancy and her journey, um it's just so reassuring to hear that these conversations are being normalised. so being a girl dad now, um knowing that even when the time comes, um we don't shirk away from having these kind of tougher conversations and educating our daughters on the way through as well. Yeah, 100%. I feel like you've gone where I want to go next quite naturally and I love that.
Hopes for Future Awareness and Education
00:21:34
Speaker
like you have the privilege of parenting these two beautiful little girls now what's your hopes for them in the future say the worst happens say they do face their own fertility challenge or their own losses what do you want to be changed by that point um I think you know if they could get it into schools like that would be You know, like, for instance, I was 30-something and had no idea. You know, like, we learn about all the other things and at school, but this is never even touched on. yeah um And, you know, at school it's like, oh, you touch a boy and you're pregnant you're having a baby. That's it. You know, like, that's not the case, right? Like, for so many. And I think the biggest thing is, is that of my friendship group, I think 80% now have had at least one miscarriage, which...
00:22:25
Speaker
it's It's scary, you know, like it's and I think it's to for for our daughters, I think, to to know that, it it you know, not it can happen, but, you know, it's a thing and we want them to be educated. And we'll always talk about the babies. We're never going to shy away. You know, my nieces, for instance, they know all about it.
00:22:49
Speaker
They're um six and eight. And they talk about miscarriage. They know. um i know it's quite early for them to know, but they saw me in my pain. So I don't want anyone to be shocked in life, I think. um And I don't want to to for anyone to go through it. But, yeah, I just don't want anyone to be shocked and I think just yeah having the conversations is important. But we're here for our daughters and, yeah, we're going to continue to help them, I suppose. no And I agree. Like, I've got three children, as I've talked about before, and...
00:23:26
Speaker
three that we lost on the way and those three that I get to parent now my eldest has actually just gone through sex education and I was like this is awful I am so done with this still being about basic bodily function and almost like condom on bananas still like we need to move away from this narrative that You look at a boy and you fall pregnant, don't have sex, you don't want to have um children until you've got your career and you've married and you've got your big house and you've ticked all these boxes. We're all sold these dreams because we're told building a family is something that naturally just happens and you'll be okay. Actually, what we know is the complete opposite. One in six couples struggle to conceive.
00:24:06
Speaker
One child in every classroom is born via the aid of IVF. we assume one in four pregnancies end in loss but we know there's no national data on that and that's something that pink elephants is lobbying for change around but even if it was one in four pregnancies that's still a quarter of pregnancies that end in loss so arguably we need to start these conversations much earlier so that there's less shock when they happen and then those around us know what to say and how to help and i think that would make a huge difference frankly like that pro Proposed one in four is probably higher um in regards to historically but also future. And we look at the society we live in is women are...
00:24:53
Speaker
getting pregnant later in life, which is a, you've got to assume a lot more risk throughout that process as well. Um, and so if you're finding out later in life, then it becomes a hell of a lot harder as well to do anything about
Parenting After Loss: Continued Impact
00:25:09
Speaker
it.
00:25:09
Speaker
yeah Um, but I think with, with our daughters, um, Having had five miscarriages prior to our first daughter, um those five will always be in our mind. um And it gives us, or it particularly me, it may gives me the opportunity each day to reflect on those losses when trying to parent them.
00:25:37
Speaker
our two daughters now um and i think i've had more stresses through the losses than i have had in raising the two girls and it's the don't sweat the small stuff like things have been a hell of a lot worse um the late nights or the early mornings or the crying and the tantrums it's been worse um these times will pass um and count it as a blessing ah the more they're carrying on the more they're crying the tougher it is the more life they've got yes um we can't the the five that we've lost we don't get that opportunity so be kind on the each other and be kind on the kids that we've got
00:26:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. It made me cry. you say that so well, but it's so true. Like my four-year-old's still very much in my bed. I look at her overnight and I can't believe she's actually even here.
00:26:39
Speaker
And I remember the nights where I was kept awake because I was just crying myself to sleep because I just wanted my baby back. I just wanted that baby to have lived. I wanted to have carried that baby to term. And so sleepless nights because a baby's crying, i think that's one thing that definitely resonates with our community.
00:26:55
Speaker
It's the parenting after loss. And I think what's really beautiful about that is also acknowledging that that challenge is this silly myth that miscarriage is a moment in time. it was only early, therefore it didn't really impact you.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yet you're here as a partner sitting here today talking about how you believe that your parenting is different now because of this experience that you've been through. Yeah, big time, big time.
00:27:20
Speaker
I agree. And, you know where the you know, the ultimate thing where people say, just you wait until X. Like we have a very different perspective. I'm like, you know, like when I was up, like Chloe's 12 weeks today, I don't know where that went, how that happened. I blinked and, you know, those nights like six weeks ago where I was with her every two hours, that's so magical, you know, like those are the things. And like for Chloe, um you know,
00:27:46
Speaker
we tried to get pregnant again the second time around and we almost went the opposite direction where it took us nine months to get Chloe and we ended up going down an IUI path. You know, things like that where every pregnancy is different yeah and, you know, the journey is just not straightforward. um and yeah And then you come out the other side you're kind of like, okay, we've got this.
00:28:11
Speaker
Yeah. And you have. Yeah, I think so. I think you did. I think you did an incredible job of holding each other through it. I've witnessed so much strength, resilience and beauty in that for both of you. And everything you've done for Pink Elephants, I can't tell you how incredibly grateful I am and how much of a flow on that's had for our community and us being here today, being able to celebrate this milestone.
00:28:35
Speaker
I just want a massive thank you.