Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
S3 E8: Katrina Goshinski - From the Boardroom to Systems change
51 Plays1 day ago
What happens when an elite corporate leader brings her strategic mind and raw personal story to the fight for reproductive rights? In this episode of The Miscarriage Rebellion, Sam sits down with Katrina Groshinski—Chairperson of Pink Elephants and Chair of top-tier law firm Minter Ellison. Katrina has spent over seven years bridging corporate enterprise with a deeply empathetic commitment to pregnancy loss advocacy, and her impact on the Australian landscape has been nothing short of historic.
Katrina opens up about her personal path through IVF, recurring pregnancy loss, and the devastating reality of a natural miscarriage that took three agonising weeks to complete. She shares how she turned that private heartbreak into a platform for systemic reform—from breaking the silence across corporate boardrooms to walking the halls of Parliament House in Canberra with Sam to help secure Australia’s federal "Leave for Loss" legislative amendment. This conversation is an absolute must-listen for anyone who believes in transforming institutional spaces into sanctuaries of shared humanity.
In this episode, we discuss:
- Shattering the Corporate Mask: How sharing her story internally at Minter Ellison prompted a profound wave of vulnerability, leading her firm to become a pioneer of the Pink Elephants Workplace Program.
- The Battle for Leave for Loss: A behind-the-scenes look at how Katrina used her legal and strategic expertise to support Pink Elephants presenting rigorous data to federal leaders, resulting in mandated bereavement leave under the Fair Work Act.
- Overcoming the Silent Freeze: Why saying something is always better than saying nothing at all, and how we can all find the courage to "just try" when supporting a grieving loved one.
- The Ultimate Goal—Mandatory Referrals: Katrina’s definitive vision for an automated medical system where mental bereavement is treated with the exact same clinical necessity as physical recovery
Read more on the Leave for loss campaign here.
Help us Celebrate 10 Years & Donate: Help us show up for the next decade. Your donation ensures we can continue providing a circle of support for families impacted by early pregnancy loss. Donate here.
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone. Connect with our services:
- Live Chat with Peer Support
- Online Communities
- Pregnancy Loss helpline delivered by PANDA
- Circle of support
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport on instagram.
- For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of Katrina Grishinsky and her advocacy role
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to season three of the Miscarriage Rebellion. I'm really pleased to be here with our very own chairperson, Katrina Grishinsky, who is also the chairperson of Minter Ellison and has been a longstanding partner of Pink Elephants for at least, we think we've just worked out maybe seven years now.
00:00:25
Speaker
I'm really excited to have Katrina here with you. There has been so many moments when Katrina has walked alongside me and helped in terms of advocacy, support, the growth of Pink Elephants, just so we can be there and make the difference that we want to make.
00:00:39
Speaker
Katrina does that with so much wisdom, support and empathy for this cause from lived experience, but also from wanting to change the systems that we know will make a difference for women when they need it
Personal journey with IVF and miscarriages
00:00:50
Speaker
most. Welcome, Katrina.
00:00:52
Speaker
Thank you so much, Sam. I just, um as you were talking, was just reflecting. It's amazing to be here with you saying this is season three. um And actually, even in these surroundings, thinking about where we've come from, it's it's incredible.
00:01:07
Speaker
My garage. yeah For many a year. A lot of good came out of that garage. did. It did well. i'm I think we might start by kind of grounding ourselves.
00:01:18
Speaker
the listeners within your experience and what connected you to Pink Elephants in the early days. Yeah, thanks, Sam. And thanks for giving me the heads up about that because, as you know, um um it's not something I talk about all the time. um i think so it and I think about how it really started. i met my partner, john um we decided that we'd like to have baby, we were so excited, like everybody is, and um pretty soon that turned into an IVF journey.
00:01:52
Speaker
I was um older ah when that started, and um working full-time,
00:02:04
Speaker
I think I didn't want to be judged at work, so I didn't tell anybody. um And so it was really, ah in terms of how work was going, it was sort of something that we were doing by ourselves.
00:02:17
Speaker
ah Quite early on to IVF, i had we had our first miscarriage. That was very early in the pregnancy and it was very disappointing. yeah um But we were also happy that we could get pregnant. yeah ah And I think that's typical of a lot of people's journey.
00:02:34
Speaker
um So it was disappointing and upsetting, but we're sort of moving on to the next thing. The second time, um we had had multiple failed IVF cycles. So getting pregnant, was we were so excited. yeah And we actually got to the stage of, um and so listeners who've done IVF yeah will understand, you get this letter basically saying like you've graduated from um the endless rounds of IVF saying we're handing over your treatment, you will now need to find yourself an obstetrician. So was so excited. And then suddenly the blood tests started falling and it became clear that um we're going to miscarry a second pregnancy.
00:03:22
Speaker
And um the advice from the specialist was just to let this happen naturally. That took three weeks. And i have to say um it was unbelievably difficult yeah because it felt like the end of hope. to be honest. yeah so
00:03:46
Speaker
um So that that was, um I think, and and for me, I think the difference in the experiences between the first and the second miscarriage were really profound. Yes. um We went on, I should say, to have beautiful Libby. was eight and a half. um but So when I went um back to work ah after having had Libs, I didn't really talk about much about what had happened. by that So by the time we'd had Libby and it was clear that we'd have IVF, but didn't talk about the miscarriages at all.
Involvement with Pink Elephants and partnership with Minter Ellison
00:04:23
Speaker
And then one day... um
00:04:26
Speaker
it came up on, i think it was a Facebook group, that ah the fertility provider I'd used, Jenea, was hosting a session with some outfit called Pink Elephants about undergoing IVF treatment at work. And I was like,
00:04:43
Speaker
that would have been amazing. Like because so many of the things you're balancing at the time is actually and your hopes, but also trying to keep everything as normal as possible, which some days is easy and some days is so hard. And I just think, I thought this is awesome. So I was super motivated to find out about this event and what had happened. And so i rolled up to Janaya the next evening ah so overexcited that I was actually a week early ah and then reached out to Pink Elephants directly um with Minters to see, to try and find out about the organisation.
00:05:27
Speaker
And I remember getting that email. don't think we've spoken publicly about this. And I'm giggling, who am into Ellison yeah for a start? Because I have no clue. i'm So prior to this, I used to be a teacher, so I'm not from a corporate background.
00:05:41
Speaker
I remember working out who you are feeling, oh, wow, you want to know more about our program. This is amazing. And I remember having that meeting and I remember coming up to an incredible boardroom and I remember it was Kate Cato yeah as well. Yeah, she was so good. You guys were so lovely to me because I was so nervous and it was very much one of those moments in Pink Elephant's history for me as the founder of how have I landed myself here? What am I doing But also motivated deeply by this deep knowledge that we could do this and we could make a difference for women in the workplace and that it should be talked about in these workplaces.
Public discussion and workplace support for miscarriage
00:06:16
Speaker
Because I want to go now into few kind of months later, Mintel has had adopted the workplace program through Pink Elephants. yeah Do you remember that panel? Yeah, was... um
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah, so I was actually, that was the first time that I'd really spoken at work um publicly about it. And it's that whole thing about, you know, sometimes the most difficult audience is your peers. So looking out, seeing my whole team who'd been there. uh but and it and it was incredible because it's hugely supportive it was such an important conversation but I think one of the things that really surprised me after that session um was a number of people who reached out to me quietly personally afterwards to say thank you so much and most of them were men and a lot of the
00:07:08
Speaker
feedback was, um you know, and and some of them had experienced miscarriage like up to 20 years earlier yeah and and had had children and just said, i just, I didn't know what to do. I wanted to support my wife, but I didn't know what to say. Or I feel so i i still feel such a sense of loss about it. And that just made the importance of the conversations even broader yeah the magnitude the weight of it absolutely and and also as we've talked about many times sam's how much better it can be and i think one thing i really learned from you in the early days was the importance of acknowledgement um i tend to be emotionally quite repressed um but i think that
00:07:55
Speaker
ability to actually meet somebody and say to acknowledge yeah my own grief and my own feelings but also to be able to say somebody else I'm so sorry that was and to know what a difference that made to just that acknowledgement something has happened and it's horrible and even though this is work we want to support you Yeah.
00:08:16
Speaker
And acknowledgement actually in its form is something that's so simple and it still astounds me that we're going into large workplaces and ultimately we're delivering empathy training. It's so hard for people to do that. And and it's part of that thing is, you know, um and one of the resources I love and that we've had for ages is what to say. Yes. and You know, when you know and you're highly empathetic, you do it beautifully at Sozie. But for for many of us, it's like, I feel terrible, but i and I don't want to say the wrong thing, so I'll say nothing, and which, of course, is terrible. Yeah, yeah absolutely. And we've heard that on many of the episodes, that when people say nothing, that silence is actually deafening yeah and in many ways tells us so much more that isn't probably true, but we feel unseen. We don't feel connected. We feel like we should be doing this alone and keep quiet about this. Yeah.
00:09:04
Speaker
And you feel judged. I think like i think there are people who at the time didn't acknowledge, who did know that we'd had the miscarriage and didn't acknowledge to John and I how hard that was. And I still find it hard to accept that. And I think it like I understand it was just the uncomfortable nature of it. But you do feel like, please try. Yeah. yeah At least try. Yeah, please, please try.
00:09:31
Speaker
I want to move as well back to those early days. and So I'd met you, who were in discussions around Minters becoming um a workplace partner of Pink Elephants, that was all happening. But I was also at that point, moving the board away from being a board with our husbands on it, as that's how you start organisations.
00:09:48
Speaker
And then we were forming a real board. And I had a conversation with you. and I was like, would love you to join our board. I was very flattered, Sam. Which amazes me. It really does.
00:10:00
Speaker
But the early days of Pink Elephants and who we were then and what kind of enticed you to join our board and to join us in this mission?
Motivation for joining Pink Elephants board and advocacy successes
00:10:08
Speaker
Well, I think there two things. One, meeting you, you were just um so clear about what you wanted to do and what needed to be done, and I 100% agreed with that. So that um women needed more support. um That, in fact, there were some really simple, easy things that could be done. One of it, the first step was that breaking the silence, just like actually talking about what happened and making that okay. um The strong, that the recognition that...
00:10:44
Speaker
part of the impact of this for women is in workplaces and that workplaces have a role to play, I thought was very important and also really constructive. You know, that Pink Elephants always from the beginning was about what we can do to make things better. So it was about raising awareness, but also about what could be done.
00:11:03
Speaker
And then I think the third thing that just so aligned with me, particularly as a lawyer, was that it was always about evidence. and support and empathy, you know and empathy so and knowing that those two things went hand in hand. Because I think one of the things when you're trying to get pregnant is there's multiple sources of information and when you have a loss.
00:11:25
Speaker
And... um And as data-driven, as evidence-based as you start at the beginning, you as hope fades or it's harder, you go further and further out to things that maybe aren't evidence-based. And there's such a role for Pink Elephants as a trusted partner. And that's how I like to think we are. um as people go through very difficult times, they can rely on us to provide evidence-based care. um i mean, I think of, Sam, some of the live recordings we did during COVID about um COVID vaccines and getting pregnant, and even things like, I can't remember how many times I googled, is it safe to fly when you're pregnant or youre you're wanting to get pregnant? Like a a million times. So yeah, I think those were the things about Pink Elephants that made me want to be part of the board.
00:12:23
Speaker
And that was really, really important to me from the beginning that we took something that was shrouded in so many different like false narratives. And then also, in my opinion, there was a lot of, when I was walking this journey myself, a lot of people trying to sell me a magic pill that would fix this for me. and lots of different things and as you said i couldn't find the evidence and I was someone that was driven that way as well and I was like no I don't want to do that because but then the longer your journey goes on the more you find your places in yourself in places doing things that you absolutely I think for Johnny I pretty much ate green spinach for three months because I was gonna say self-hypnosis like I just laugh but you know at
00:13:03
Speaker
we've done it all because and i think that speaks volumes to the vulnerability of us in these moments that isn't acknowledged in society yeah that is kind of just shifted under this like you just get on with this private battle yourself you don't talk about it and what happens in this privacy and in these shadows is then women are out doing all of these different things and they're not actually being given the evidence and the truth around what will actually make a difference So that was a big passion part of mine from Pink Elephants from the beginning. That was definitely how we connected as well.
00:13:33
Speaker
In terms of one of the biggest wins of Pink Elephants, Leigh-For-Loss, and what we did there. I don't know whether you want to talk about things like when we had the meeting with the current Attorney-General, Senator Cash, how that was. Yeah, no look, ah it's amazing to think of Leaf for Loss, particularly because COVID was such a challenging time. i mean, if one of the things I'm really proud of about Pink Elephants, and you should be very proud as the CEO, Sam, is um how we...
00:14:03
Speaker
kept the organisation going through COVID. And at one stage, remember, we actually made the really dis difficult decision as a board to kind of go into hibernation mode, which turned out to be absolutely the right decision, but was really, really hard at the time trying to decide what services we would, you know, cut back on, what was the core that we needed to preserve. So that at the same time as we were doing that and watching the numbers, um to then have Leave for Loss, which was this amazing opportunity really, um was incredible. But yes, I mean, going to Parliament and talking to the then Attorney-General and i I think one thing that really strikes me that
00:14:49
Speaker
was that We did a lot of preparation for those meetings. we were very focused on changing the law and what needed to – so I was in my happy place there. yeah um But then when we got into those meetings, um both with Senator Cash in Perth and the ones we had in Canberra, um they very quickly became – People sharing their stories. Yes.
00:15:14
Speaker
And again, it just reinforces every time we do this, just the the number of people who experience this miscarriage and and what a major problem this is for Australians. And again, how much better we can make it for people. yeah Like so many people. ah So yeah, that's probably...
00:15:33
Speaker
one of my enduring memories. And um I think probably the other thing I remember is when we were meeting with Senator Cash and she was, um listened so carefully with such a, you know, so much respect and empathy in the beginning and then moved on to, right, this is what we can do. um And then she said, well, what changes would you like? And we're like, well, here's our table of changes that we have prepared earlier. And that's where I was incredibly grateful to be with you. but then And when we could immediately have something to discuss with her and she just grasped it and and and ran with it, which was just tremendous. Yeah, I think one of the things that I'm incredibly proud of Pink Elephants is I get the privilege of leading and almost being like a face and sharing in my story and all those books.
00:16:21
Speaker
ah It truly is a collective. And the amount of work that went into having that really strong case for support. do you remember we had support from Tanara Foundation, support from Dandilo Partners as well, and all this financial modelling. We'd worked with a Small Business Council of Australia. All these different stakeholders we'd worked with in preparation for these meetings.
00:16:40
Speaker
And I'm really proud that we took that time and the strength of the case. And then that made that when there was an opportunity open, that it made sense that we could, we were really clear. We knew what we needed. We could advocate for it in a manner that they would understand. And that it became a process.
00:16:56
Speaker
Yeah, and absolutely. And even for me, like within mental health and working within colleagues, um within our workplace team, working with Newgate as well, it was it was a scrappy um but collective effort. Yeah, definitely. And then an amazing outcome. Yeah, amazing outcome. Yeah, it was September 2021.
00:17:20
Speaker
Yeah, and look, part of that was, again, and I think it's a real strength of the basis upon which you and Gabby founded Pink Elephants, which was listening to what women and their families needed.
Mental health and miscarriage support systems
00:17:35
Speaker
And one of the things we heard again and again, and we both knew from personal experience, was the turning up to work was was hard. and like And I would say for me, work in one way was my saviour because there's just a part of you just compartmentalise and it's like, well, here's this thing kind I can actually do, but the energy that that takes.
00:18:00
Speaker
And, you know, I had a degree of flexibility of work, which I used and which was very helpful. But, you know, the stories we'd hear from women, like literally, they would, know, they would have a procedure in the morning, in. think one woman wrote to us. She was then crying in the car park and then getting out of the car and going to work. Like it's just overwhelming. And I think it's one of the things that women do and sort of – um do well, i guess, is um carrying on.
00:18:32
Speaker
But there's the thing about how much do you have to carry on. We knew from that evidence that we had from the research that was in the Lancet and that had all been gathered and we did provide to government that that had an impact on women's mental health and that if they weren't properly supported, that could then turn into, you know, anxiety and depression. That's, you know, very challenging for those women and their families. That does then spill into their workplaces. yeah And so everybody has a collective, you know, a responsibility and an interest in making it better. And just those two days of bereavement leave, the recognition, the space,
00:19:12
Speaker
really helps yeah and for me the validation that it is bereavement it's grief it's okay to grieve the loss of your baby yeah i think we touched on something really important and then i don't want to gloss over it and that is the strong link between the experience of miscarriage early pregnancy loss fertility challenges and poor mental health outcomes yeah now whilst i never want miscarriage framed as a mental health issue because it shouldn't be in my opinion this is bereavement and But we are adding trauma with the systems not being set up to support women and their partners. And Leave for Loss was a massive win in that case in terms of addressing a system and a policy that will hopefully provide more validation and empathy for women and the partners.
00:19:54
Speaker
What other systems do we think that Pink Elephants are working towards change on? So things like the healthcare systems, things that we'd like to see that will make a difference.
00:20:05
Speaker
Yeah, I just, I think the, what we politely call the referral pathway, um which is that, Most women when they have a miscarriage will either receive some sort of contact or care from their GP or from a hospital emergency department um or you know there'll be a group of women who it's part of that as their fertility specialist and nurses and treatment who are dealing with them. And...
00:20:38
Speaker
ah Every one of those women and their partners usually and families um deserves to have... um the information and support at that stage, which is you've experienced a miscarriage, the grieving process is completely natural, that is separate from and needs attention and care to the physical care that you may need, and here's how to get it. like I'm so proud that Pink Elephants can provide that. um As I said, like I think back to that second miscarriage. I had ah had saw the same sonographer three times, but she was amazing. She was and so nice. like
00:21:23
Speaker
um But that made a big difference, yeah right? um And we continue to hear stories, which are heartbreaking, but also...
00:21:35
Speaker
make me angry, yes um about women in emergency departments or um seeing GPs who are, A, offered no support, but um their experience is minimised ah immediately.
00:21:51
Speaker
When they're still shocked, I think. When they're still like really coming to terms of what has happened. And I just, it's so unnecessary. Mm-hmm. and it dangerously disenfranchises the experience, which in my opinion, leads to these poor mental health outcomes. Because when we isolate people in these experiences and we don't use a language that's appropriate and empathetic and compassionate, we actually add trauma that's unnecessary. We're then isolating them at home. We're telling them this experience is not worthy of feeling the way that they're actually feeling.
00:22:24
Speaker
And then that leads to this rumination and this expression of emotions that's kept within and isn't actually dealt with. And what do we do when we're desperate for a baby? We go again. We go again because we just want that baby in our arms. So without processing what's happened to us, we're moving into yet another round of either IVF or trying to fall pregnant naturally again ourselves.
00:22:44
Speaker
And we're wearing those brave faces. We're turning up to work. We're pretending everything's okay. Yet inside, yeah it feels anything other than that. Yeah.
Significance of peer and cultural support in miscarriage
00:22:52
Speaker
And look, I... It really reminds me, Sam, I think one of the other big things I learned from that first meeting with you was that miscarriage was common. I did not know that.
00:23:06
Speaker
I did not know that. And it was so comforting. And that's one thing about the peer support model as well, that we have learned about why it's so successful. yeah Because You're not alone. yeah You're not alone. And like I was very lucky to have the benefit of a very supportive partner and family. But sometimes people's situations are far more complicated. It may be that their family background or that their cultural background, where miscarriage isn't something that you talk about. And that and having a baby is...
00:23:39
Speaker
Very, very significant. um So there are more things that people are navigating and they need support to do that. And that's also why it's really important that the way we show up for women in our community recognises that they have multiple different experiences as well.
00:23:58
Speaker
I think that diversity of experience and that diversity of person is really important. And I know that at Pink Elephants, one of the things i think we've grown up in, we've always underpinned with evidence and empathy, but now having these community reference groups that have representation from different types of people, from all walks of life, from all parts of Australia, from different cultural backgrounds and hearing their experiences and making sure they not only feel seen in the content that we offer on our website and socials, but also that they feel like we understand the nuanced experience of their type of loss versus someone else. Yes, mean, I think about the, um know, when first started the circles of support and, um,
00:24:38
Speaker
ah the difference in the circles of support where they were specifically for people who'd had had it a termination for medical reasons and the particular types of grief that came from that, that were really, that were different. Yeah. and um that people in that experience needed much, you know, different care. yeah And so ah it's one thing I'm just so passionate about us doing is continuing to advocate for the need to recognise that um and also think about how best to support people.
00:25:16
Speaker
And I think that's also where Pink Elephants becomes the early pregnancy loss specialist or rather than becomes is because we are taking the time to make sure that we are representing all types of pregnancy loss. And there isn't just this one umbrella miscarriage and they're all the same. Yes. We know that's not true. Right. I want to tackle a little bit more now, just kind of thinking about the growth of Pink Elephants that you've had the privilege of being part of and um where we're at now and what our hopes are for the future as well.
Growth and impact of Pink Elephants
00:25:43
Speaker
Yeah, look, I think just the best part of the growth is just like every year we have supported more and more women and their families. And so watching those numbers go from – and literally, Sam, I remember in the beginning, particularly with peer support – you would literally be knowing, you know, you would know the names of the women that we were supporting and and, you know, you still do support individual, but, you know, it it was so personal in the beginning. And then as those numbers grew and we've been able to use the –
00:26:16
Speaker
um website to reach more women and very proud of the circle um and there's so much more we can do in that way but actually just to see the number of people that we can continue to support is absolutely amazing and I think to see some of that community fundraising as well like that's been it's just like amazing when suddenly somebody's you know rode you know five days in a row yeah and they've raised forty thousand dollars it's absolutely incredible um and often that's partners of women who've experienced miscarriage as well and so yeah I think the actual the growth so it's actually we can see when we are making a difference is um is enormous and Yeah, and that'll always be the bit that I'm proudest of. I love Leave the Lost, but it's just the one-on-ones of just someone that you know you've made and absolutely been there for them. might know And that's it. right That's why we exist.
00:27:15
Speaker
Yeah, and look, then the um that said, the need is still so... um bear sometimes. So Sam, I think back to that, we were at that fundraising event on the Gold Coast last year, which was amazing. And um we talked to that guy who and his wife had had a miscarriage and he'd put in for his bereavement leave, which which time i was sitting there going, did that, that's awesome. We felt really proud. Yeah, he said he'd had the call from HR saying to him, basically, I see you've put in bereavement leave, can you please tell me the name of the person who died? and he,
00:27:57
Speaker
had said explicitly to the person what had happened, um but still so far to go. far. You know, like you just realise even with the workplace, it's like we'll prove who were you know who was this person who died. How close how close were you to them? It's i find the need for validation and the
Societal shifts and workplace policies for miscarriage support
00:28:15
Speaker
need for... um And that's that wider societal conversation yeah that needs to happen, right? Because that just made me so angry in that moment. And it's really hard because what I've learned as well over the last decade of this is the duality of in that moment, that person just needs to be heard and acknowledged at how awful and wrong that was. But I go straight to fight. And I'm like, I am so angry. That is so fucked. And we need to change this. And what can we do? Yeah. It can be hard to hold both, but you're right. like That was just October last year. And I know even in the last few months, we've had messages because we get emails from women.
00:28:48
Speaker
i can A woman that was a nurse and was being told that bereavement leave wasn't for miscarriages and we had to send back the link to the Fair Work Act of Australia. We're still having to do this work, literally, because there's still this misperception around miscarriage that it isn't really a baby yet, so therefore you're not entitled to bereavement leave. and we You are. and We know you are because of the work that we did. But I still think there is a lot lot more awareness and advocacy around that will make some real change. I think, if I think back to one of the things that has changed, I think that breaking the silence yes has really been broken. And um partly to a lot of the work that Pink Elephants has done in Australia but internationally,
00:29:32
Speaker
you know, that movement came at the same time and I know Tommy's in the UK has done a huge amount of work. um Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada has just published an autobiography and mentioned in that the impact that having a miscarriage had on him and his wife. So that breaking the silence piece has well and truly changed and that gives me hope that change does happen. right So that's step one.
00:29:59
Speaker
You know, the the um step two is we talk about it and people can be met with empathy, so giving people the words. But step three, which is my hope for the future, but my demand the my demand of us, to be honest, as an organisation of um ah and say the governments is the wrong word, but it's really the community to clarify the expectations we have of the healthcare we want. And I think we have very positive engagement, Sam, with um medical profession yeah around and, um you know, sonographers and nurses and midwives about how these things can be better. But getting these referral pathways really clear.
00:30:49
Speaker
Yeah, I don't think anyone should be leaving in any healthcare setting without a referral for support because you wear that white coat, whether it's actual white coat or not, but you're in that position of power as a healthcare care professional. It takes less than 30 seconds to acknowledge their loss and ensure that they know where to go to for support. And the difference that makes because it is a permission slip from someone in power telling you that this is an experience and that is worthy of support. And absolutely, I know that for the next few years of Pink Elephants, one of the things that we're looking to tackle head on is these pathways and ensuring that no one leaves without a referral.
00:31:25
Speaker
Watch this space. I mean, I think also heartening workplaces at the same time as that breaking the silence has happened. I think workplaces have um done an enormous amount. I mean, and it's one of those things where the private sector and the public sector as employers have kind of been in step together. So I remember in the New South Wales government, um and i think Dominic Perrottet was the Premier, you know made that decision that they would um give basic claim, a scourge leave for all the public sector employees. Yeah, they gave five days. yeah Yeah, which is incredible. And lots of private sector employees have actually reviewed their policies.
00:32:10
Speaker
um a number of those are our workplace partners like Zip, cetera. That makes a real difference. ye um And it's sort of one step at a time. But like literally, Sam, if we have to go one workplace at a time through Australia... you know we will and i know there's a real piece for us around small um employer you know small businesses as well yeah um because ah i think often they feel that some of these issues are for easier for larger um organizations so that's a priority for us as well so that it's every workplace and not and and understanding that um
00:32:46
Speaker
you know, every workplace has its own dynamics. We need to make of things we can do as Pink Elephants. How can we make this as easy as possible for you in making resources available, supporting you with a programme that will work for your organisation? And it shouldn't come down to this, but I know it often does, but it's also about understanding the value, the investment this is to your business when you invest in people going through these issues and showing up and being there for them. You are reducing presenteeism, you're reducing absenteeism. I can't tell you collectively the number of women that I've spoken to that have chosen to step out of their careers when they're in the trenches of fertility because they just can't manage both. It is too much. They are not getting the support that they need. Whereas if with a little bit of flexibility and support in that workplace, that decision might be a completely different decision. So we're talking about women's workforce participation here as well. Absolutely. I've always thought that was very clear, ah a very ah very clear link. And I think it does, it definitely goes to the bereavement, leave, time, individual workplaces having individual policies. But also, i think this is where the breaking the silence and the actually talking about it can be very important. I've spoken to a number of women, and I'm sure you have as well, For some women, the two days or a small amount of time is enough. For others, for where they are in terms of trying to get pregnant, how they feel about the miscarriage, um and it's not enough time.
00:34:21
Speaker
And I've spoken to people who've taken four weeks and six weeks. And that's not needed enough. by everyone. It's not available to everyone, but I thought it was fantastic that they had done that and that part of that was being honest about what, being able to be honest about what had happened and how they felt about it. Yeah.
00:34:43
Speaker
Being able to have an employer that you can have a conversation with, that you can say, hey, this is something that's going on with me and I need this, this and that. And it being individual as well, there's an element of that.
00:34:53
Speaker
I feel like we've covered so much in such a short time. i want one last thing. In terms of vision, we've just we're about to hit a decade. In June, 2026, Pink Elephants is 10 years old. That's 10 years of impact.
00:35:07
Speaker
Where do you see us in the next 10?
Future goals of Pink Elephants
00:35:10
Speaker
Look, I think as an organisation, and I should call this out, I mean, one thing that is amazing to me um is the people we have as part of Pink Elephants. So the team at the moment and just the professionalism, the diversity of experience that people have amazing.
00:35:34
Speaker
is It still amazes me, right? So came in and said hi when you're having the strategy day a few weeks ago and looking around the room at that team, I was like so proud, so interested to hear what everybody had to say because they're super engaged and they've all got different perspectives and different – um ah different skills as well, but all absolutely on mission.
00:36:03
Speaker
um I mean, the next 10 years for us, I guess I've got some big things I would love us to do. um ah Definitely, as we've said, the referral pathways, um really being able to better support our community in the particular individual experiences they have. So termination for medical reasons, you know,
00:36:27
Speaker
um in particular, ah partners, I think, is an area that we'd really like to support as well. um And also being able to in say enhance people's experience, which sounds so corporate, but actually being able to offer a more personalised support. And we've always been digital first. It's one of our huge strengths. um But being able to use that to reach more people and reach them in a better way. And I mean, the fantastic ClearBets team in New South Wales, who's done wonderful things, particularly about the ah specific challenges that women and their families in rural and regional Australia have, but really being able to tailor our services much better.
00:37:18
Speaker
Yeah, it's happening. We're going there. We've started the work already. It's exciting. It is exciting. Thank you. Thank for coming you coming on.