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S3 E2: Natalie Khoury - A sanctuary shared in stories
65 Plays9 hours ago
In this incredibly special, celebratory season of The Miscarriage Rebellion, host Sam Payne welcomes Natalie Khoury to share a story that beautifully illustrates a decade of Pink Elephants' community impact. Nat opens her heart about her deeply personal journey through recurring early pregnancy loss—experiencing three heartbreaking losses in quick succession after her marriage in 2024.
With immense vulnerability, Nat takes us through the invisible trauma of navigating silent losses, the grief of packed-away memories, and the unique, high-anxiety reality of pregnancy after loss. But this is also a story of immense celebration and hope. Nat shares the joy of welcoming her "magic" baby boy.
This conversation is a testament to the power of breaking the silence and a celebration of the strength found in community. Whether you are walking through your own valley of grief or are here to learn how to better support a loved one, Nat’s story offers a gentle reminder that you are never truly alone.
Together, they discuss:
- The Invisible Trauma: Navigating hospital systems that lack empathy and leaving without follow-ups or checks.
- The Grieving Process: The visceral experience of early loss and the pain of "packing it away" only to find it is always with you.
- A Bridge to Understanding: How Nat used the podcast to help her husband, family, and friends understand the deep depths of her grief.
- Pregnancy After Loss: Validating the anxiety, fear, and hyper-vigilance that doesn't simply disappear after a positive test.
- A Future of Compassion: Nat’s heartfelt hopes for a world with better language, open conversations, and deeper education around miscarriage.
Help us Celebrate 10 Years & Donate: Help us show up for the next decade. Your donation ensures we can continue providing a circle of support for families just like Nat's. Donate here
EARLY PREGNANCY LOSS SUPPORT
If you or someone you know has experienced miscarriage or early pregnancy loss, please know you are not alone. Connect with our services:
- Live Chat with Peer Support
- Online Communities
- Pregnancy Loss helpline delivered by PANDA
- Circle of support
- Follow @pinkelephantssupport on instagram.
- For crisis support, please call Lifeline - 13 11 14.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Pink Elephants
00:00:05
Speaker
Welcome to season three of the miscarriage rebellion. I'm Sam Payne. I'm the founder and current CEO of Pink Elephants Support Network. Pink Elephants is all around raising awareness, support and advocacy for those who experience the heartbreak of early pregnancy loss, because we ultimately believe that no one should walk the journey of pregnancy loss alone, that everyone deserves their circle of support.
00:00:31
Speaker
Within the elephant community, if a mother elephant loses her baby, the other elephants form a physical circle of support around her. And that's what we aim to
Celebrating a Decade of Impact
00:00:42
Speaker
be.
00:00:42
Speaker
This is an incredibly special season of the miscarriage rebellion. In June, 2026, we will years old That's a decade of impact, a decade of making a difference, of showing up and being there for our community who deserve to be seen, validated, empathised and connected in one of the hardest points in their journeys.
00:01:06
Speaker
Losing a loved baby isn't something that should be glossed over, isn't something that we should shy away from. It is something that deserves so much more support than is currently out there. And we're doing our hardest to make sure that everyone has access to that circle of support.
Hopeful Stories in Season Three
00:01:21
Speaker
But season three is a hopeful season. It's a season of celebration of the difference we've made and we've got some incredible stories to share with you. Today i welcome Nat on the podcast. I have known Nat for a few years now. Nat will tell you her story of pregnancy loss, fertility challenges and welcoming her baby boy.
Nat's Personal Journey Begins
00:01:42
Speaker
It's an incredible episode that shows how Pink Elephants has reached Nat and her partner on their journey and made a difference from them for them when they needed it most.
00:01:54
Speaker
I'm really, really grateful to have you here, Nat. I know how hard this can be to sit in a setting like this. It feels incredibly unnatural at times to share something that's so deeply private and personal to many of us.
00:02:07
Speaker
But we share these stories because we know the difference they make for our listeners and you know that firsthand and we'll hear that. So I'll jump straight in, Nat, and if you want to kind of introduce yourself and talk a little bit about your experience, we'll go from there.
00:02:21
Speaker
I mean, I do want to say thank you so much for having me. um It's very surreal. Sorry. It's okay. um
00:02:33
Speaker
I have listened to this podcast like quietly on my commute to work um when I was really in the deep depths of of grief with with miscarriage. um Trying to make sense of everything that was happening um really gave me strength and hearing your voice was incredible. um i Yeah, just...
00:03:00
Speaker
I just never imagined I would actually be here sharing my story with you. So thank you. You're welcome. I'm really grateful to have you here. And I know that your story will help so many women out there. Thank you.
Experiencing First Pregnancy Loss
00:03:11
Speaker
My husband and I were married January 2024.
00:03:16
Speaker
And like um a lot of couples, we we wanted to start trying for a family. it was two months after we were married that we decided to try.
00:03:28
Speaker
And we imagined it would be very easy, very simple, simple,
00:03:35
Speaker
and we were very lucky. we We tried in March, and we fell pregnant straight away, and doing that first pregnancy test was just scary and so exciting. it was actually the first time I'd ever seen a positive pregnancy test for myself, so it was an incredible feeling, and i yeah it's hard to put words um into how I
00:04:05
Speaker
how we both felt and how I felt, but it was, it was like magic really. um
00:04:14
Speaker
I ended up taking a second test as well a few days later just to be sure and it was positive. So that was very reassuring and the excitement sort of began then. we went about our lives, went to work and i just felt like, wow, I'm going to be a mum. You know, this is this is really a special moment. And it was 15th of April, I woke up with cramps in the morning and I felt a bit off and I thought, oh, maybe this is like implantation, like it it you know it can't be anything too serious, like I'll just go about my day and I went to work, everything is normal and then i
00:04:58
Speaker
started to get really bad back pain and I thought, oh, you know, this is a bit unusual. Cramps are getting a little bit more intense. And I remember um I contacted a friend who's a doctor and she was lovely. just spoke through um what I should do and she suggested, you know, just go straight to the hospital. They'll see you straight away.
Coping with Recurrent Miscarriages
00:05:18
Speaker
It'll be, you know, you'll be seen too. So i ended up leaving work um and I got it an Uber and I went straight to RPA hospital where I was,
00:05:28
Speaker
pretty much seen to straight away. um was crazy, you know, walking in and saying, I am so many weeks pregnant. I've had a positive pregnancy test. These are my symptoms now. You know, i was so...
00:05:42
Speaker
um just unsure of what was going to happen. um I was put straight through to Raft, um where I then was hooked up to, you know, IVs. They were doing blood tests. They were doing urine tests. I was getting asked everything. um Anyway, I just sat there and, you know, i was in a lot of pain.
00:06:06
Speaker
And i was spotting as well by then. um And remember the nurse came over to me and she said, um
00:06:21
Speaker
sorry, but like, the results of the urine test don't show that is's that you're pregnant. And I was like, what you mean? was just kind of beside myself but in shock.
00:06:35
Speaker
And um my blood come back showing that my HCG level was quite low as well. And i just remember like just feeling so isolated, so alone, and I just sat there like...
00:06:54
Speaker
Mind you, I was surrounded by people, obviously, and I just didn't know what to do. like I remember getting up and going to the bathroom. and there was just so much blood that started to appear and it was just, I was thinking, you know, it's this can't be it. Like surely this is not the end of this journey. Like anyway, i come back to my chair and i obviously now being a mum, like I understand the pain. i started to get sort of like ah early labour pain um and it was excruciating.
00:07:29
Speaker
And I just remember I was sitting there and I just knew in my, like, the depths of myself that this was it. yeah it was It was happening. And I remember I was just sitting there and I said to my husband, can you please get the nurse? I just need to take something because I was trying to be so quiet.
00:07:52
Speaker
So I had. had all these people and I just didn't want, obviously, like, uncontrollable, right? So you want to, like, howl and go through. And I just couldn't. and and I just sat there and I just held it in.
00:08:06
Speaker
then... um
00:08:10
Speaker
Yeah. Obviously, I'd miscarried. Yeah. And um the nurses and doctors had said, like, this is obviously what's happened. You're welcome to stay or if you want, you can come back tomorrow morning and go to the early pregnancy clinic, which was yeah in the hospital. And I just said, i want to go home.
00:08:30
Speaker
Yeah, course. I just don't want to be here anymore. I've had enough. And I feel like I've put my husband through enough. And I just... Kept saying how sorry I was to Alan because I just blame myself.
00:08:44
Speaker
You do. Women do. Yeah. then obviously um went to the pregnancy clinic the next day and that was just a whole thing. But you just don't need... When you've been through that, I mean, walking through the doors and being exposed to women that were pregnant so many months, showing, and you're just like...
00:09:08
Speaker
was this fucking real life. Like, that's how I felt. Like, I was just like, why am I being tortured? It's like no one has considered how painful it is to walk in and be confronted by the very thing that you want more than anything in the world that you've literally just lost. Yeah.
00:09:26
Speaker
It was pretty terrible. Mm-hmm. But I just tried to stay composed and I feel like I was so, it was such an out-of-body experience already. Like I just didn't even, I wasn't crying. Like I was just like in shock and, you know, I'm here. So what do I do?
00:09:46
Speaker
um had an ultrasound um again where I was confronted by pregnant women. i remember I walked into the room and... was asked before the ultrasound, um how many weeks are you? And I'm like, ugh.
00:10:03
Speaker
Like I've just lost a baby. Like I'm not pregnant. But I remember I was just so like normal about it. Like I tried to, me just tried to brush it off and like act like, it you know, yeah make light of it, which is just so messed up in its own way. But it was just my way of being like trying to, i don't know, like just, and she was shocked. She was like,
00:10:27
Speaker
I think it's also the narratives that we're told around the experience of miscarriage being something that it's quick, it happens early, so therefore you get over it. It's not really a big deal. We're told all these things yeah before we happen and then the two it happens and it can feel completely different inside. yeah But where we have a gap of education, awareness and language even, yes we feel this need to have a sense of composure and to not upset anybody else rather than telling our truth. Absolutely.
00:10:57
Speaker
So, um yeah, I had that done. Obviously, like you're staring at a screen and there's nothing, you know, and they're telling you that. But, you know, they're saying obviously we can see that there was a pregnancy, but there's no longer one.
00:11:11
Speaker
Yeah. Okay, cool. Like what next now? You know, and I'm panicking, thinking i don't I don't really know what I'm supposed to do. I then spoke to, I believe it was a midwife after, um and I had some more bloods done and my HCG levels were incredibly low then.
00:11:27
Speaker
um the rest is really just a blur of just I don't know there was just a lot of medical jargon and crap that I just was like yep like what do I do yeah like I just felt really lost I never imagined that I would ever go through this you know you do hear about it but you don't feel like it's ever going to touch your family and when it does you're just so unprepared and I walked away with a pamphlet that said that I had her pregnancy of unknown location.
00:12:00
Speaker
So that was really hard.
00:12:05
Speaker
i was like, you were pregnant, but we can't see that there you know we can't see that the pregnancy is inside the uterus or outside. So we can only tell that you were based on like bloods that show hormone levels.
00:12:20
Speaker
And that's it really. And I just felt like,
00:12:27
Speaker
I'm just so alone. Yeah. And you leave hospital and no one follows up. No one calls. No. No one checks in. Yeah. It was really hard. Hard.
00:12:41
Speaker
really hot um
00:12:46
Speaker
I was reassured that I could try again. And, you know, you when you want something so badly, which we did, you know, we thought, well, we'll just get on the bandwagon and we'll we'll try again. Like, why not? So um we did end up trying again um in May.
00:13:03
Speaker
um And I had a positive pregnancy test in June, which was, again, very exciting. But the excitement was obviously not as great as the first and there was just a lot of like okay so what if this happens again know that whole the happiness that you have and what you go through when you see that test it's taken away because you're just like you I wanted it so badly we wanted it so badly we got it we were very lucky we fell pregnant so quickly again but it's just like okay so what if this is taken away from us so you just yeah it's really
00:13:45
Speaker
It's really difficult to um
00:13:52
Speaker
happy. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to lean in and believe and feel the joy that you felt in that first pregnancy. And that's completely normal yeah and actually really understandable when you hear what's just happened to you with that first baby.
00:14:10
Speaker
And we hear that so often through pink elephants. And again, it's not talked about. There's almost an assumption that if you fall pregnant again, great, we can forget about all that business. Okay, you've had your miscarriage, now you're pregnant, everything's going to be okay. yeah um sorry it's okay
00:14:33
Speaker
it's a lot yeah um and when you tell it like this it feels like a lot as well right i just haven't told the story it's crazy like i feel like you you pack it away like it's always there with you but you pack it away and then when you come back and you have to actually talk about it and relive everything it's just like the first time again almost like it's so raw it's painful
00:14:59
Speaker
um yes so we fell pregnant the second time um i did another test as well like the first just to be sure and we were pregnant but i I started to experience the same symptoms again.
00:15:20
Speaker
And i I knew what was coming, which was really sad. yeah And I automatically just like was like, this is it, it's gonna happen again. It
00:15:34
Speaker
was like lightning striking twice. And I just thought,
00:15:43
Speaker
Surely this is not... Surely this is not... I was at work again, of course. It's always, you know... The worst time in the place. You so composed and you don't want people knowing and it was hard because, you know, people...
00:15:57
Speaker
that were close to me in the workplace knew but not a lot of people. So it was just, I was sort of just trying to brush everything off. um I ended up going home early. Alan picked me up and I just knew and I thought, I'm not going to the hospital. I'm not going to sit in that chair again and go through everything and not be like acknowledged for all of that. I'd rather just be in the comfort of my own home and experience everything, which I did. Yeah.
00:16:27
Speaker
Sorry. There's no need to apologise. But again, you chose not to go back into a healthcare setting because how difficult that first time was and it didn't meet your needs. It didn't offer you the empathy or the validation that you needed in that moment. Yeah.
00:16:43
Speaker
So you felt safer at home. The pain obviously was there and I had a lot of spotting. um I woke up that morning at 3am with excruciating pain, again, like what I experienced before, and I just knew and that's what kept me because I thought, that's it now, like, this is happening. I know I'm losing this baby as well.
00:17:04
Speaker
And I remember I just just sat in the shower for like two hours with just hot water like running on my back. Just...
00:17:15
Speaker
crying and howling and my poor husband just didn't know what to do just sitting there because we're not there's no conversation around this so your husband Alan doesn't know what to do yeah my husband was the same like you just Because we're not talking about this, because we're not taught about it. When this happens, it can be incredibly confronting and almost scary. A lot of people tell us that as well, right? Yeah. And it isn't a heavy period. For many of us, it is like those early stages of labour. And we can feel waves of contractions. Correct. Because your body is doing what it needs to do. Correct. But again, if we're not given the right language or even information about this is what it can be like, when it happens like that, it can be shocking and it confronting and scary. And it doesn't need to be.
00:18:02
Speaker
It's always going to be grief. It's always going to have an element of sadness because we have lost a baby that we loved and we wanted dearly. yeah that's We can't take that away, but we can make these experiences better for women and their partners with more education and awareness.
00:18:17
Speaker
Yeah.
00:18:20
Speaker
um i am I then woke up at 6am, went to the bathroom and I had passed a lot of clots and lot of tissue.
00:18:32
Speaker
And i but I said to my husband, I said, I think... we still need to go back to the hospital. i still need to make sure I do the tests, that everything has left my body case of infection. Like I automatically just went back to this is what I need to do and just like kind of took away from that moment of just losing the second baby.
00:18:56
Speaker
um So we we we took the the tissue with us to the hospital and I had... um
00:19:06
Speaker
I had some tests done again, bloods, ultrasounds, um and was basically
00:19:15
Speaker
basically given the same information, pregnancy of unknown location. um
00:19:23
Speaker
I was approximately five weeks pregnant with this one. Hmm.
00:19:29
Speaker
again and I just was like okay so there's something clearly not right here there's something wrong I don't know what's going on what do i do um and the midwife there had said um look we want you to maybe speak to our RPA fertility clinic if you can get in to see a fertility specialist yes um and see your GP was like okay um We'll send off the tissue as well to the labs and see if we can find anything because, of course, at this point we're just like we want to find out
Medical Insights and Support
00:20:00
Speaker
what's happening, right? We want to know, like, maybe, you know, we can we can find out why this is happening to us, especially the second time. yeah
00:20:09
Speaker
um The wait list for the specialist was the 4th of December. And we're in June now, so that's six months away. Yep.
00:20:22
Speaker
I mean, obviously, I just took that appointment i went, yeah, okay, because, again, I just didn't know what to do, and I thought maybe this is the avenue that we're supposed to go down. i don't know. like um And then continued to have some bloods done, and I was told, again, that the pregnancy hormone was dropping dramatically, so...
00:20:46
Speaker
This is it. like So by then um i had made an appointment with my GP, Manisha Kelly, Dr Manisha Kelly, shout out. She's fantastic and she was who actually connected me with you guys, with Pink Elephants, which was incredible.
00:21:02
Speaker
um And she also referred us to Cheryl Fuah. we we had some hope with what we'd been through. um and a plan that was in place.
00:21:15
Speaker
um However, we had fallen pregnant again. So it was in July, late July, was our third pregnancy. um and we had an appointment with Cheryl on the 31st of July so it was like we went into the appointment and I'm like I'm pregnant but she knew because I'd had tests done with my doctor and she'd sent everything off and she was like congratulations and I'm like Thank you. Like, you know.
00:21:46
Speaker
Anyway, she was like, look, it's fine. We're going to start progesterone. Like, everything's going to okay. I'm going to get you booked in for some ultrasounds as well.
00:21:57
Speaker
We had a trip that was booked to go to New York also at the end of um August. So she just wanted to be sure that I had the scans and a viability scan follow-up.
00:22:09
Speaker
um
00:22:12
Speaker
So...
00:22:15
Speaker
On the 12th of August, we had our first scan and everything looked fine. This was the first ultrasound we'd ever had and we'd ever seen a baby on the screen. And it was like...
00:22:27
Speaker
Just... I can't even put it into words. It was incredible. You fall in love. Yeah, the love that we... had for this tiny little jelly bean. It was just crazy and...
00:22:44
Speaker
Your heartbeat was strong and everything was fine and
00:22:49
Speaker
yeah, it was it was it was perfect. We walked out, we were so were happy. We were like, yes, like this is great. You know, I'm taking the progesterone. It must be working. nice you think you found your magic. Like this is what I needed the whole time and it's going to be okay. And then um we went back for the ah the viability scan and I was seven weeks and
00:23:14
Speaker
And I just remember, like, I was sitting there and i just, like, I didn't even hear what she'd said to me. She was very nervous, obviously. And I was like, I just didn't even hear. And then I'm, like, looking.
00:23:29
Speaker
And you you are looking for that flicker when you're looking at the ultrasound. And I remember I didn't see anything. I thought, oh, maybe it's just she's got a manoeuvre around. And my husband um just, like, collapsed onto me and,
00:23:47
Speaker
I just...
00:23:53
Speaker
It was like we had all of this hope and we thought we had the answer and then it seemed promising. You know, my levels were good as well.
00:24:06
Speaker
We saw that there was a heartbeat. How could this happen again for the third time? Anyway, I um i ah just just remember, like, leaving there and I just felt like I wanted to just walk out on – literally into the middle of the road. i was just like, I've had enough.
00:24:26
Speaker
Yeah. I've had enough.
00:24:30
Speaker
It's so incredibly cruel, especially when it feels like the world just carries on and everyone's going about their normal business and it's happened again and you just want to, yeah. yeah god just like why man like why and then of course we had this fucking trip like two days and i'm like how the fuck are we gonna go to this i don't it want to do anything i just want to rot in bed and like yeah not talk to anyone anyway um cheryl finally got in touch with me
00:25:02
Speaker
And she was like, going to do a D&C tomorrow. First thing, i want you to go on this holiday. You're going on this holiday. You need this holiday. And I'm like, I can't do this. Like, I can't go on this holiday.
00:25:14
Speaker
she was like, you need to go on this holiday. was like, okay. She's like, you guys have been through so much and you just need need this for the two of you right now. And...
00:25:25
Speaker
I do want to acknowledge how beautiful it is that Cheryl could connect those dots for you and you didn't feel like you had to advocate to have a D&C within a time frame. It felt like someone was caring for you and thinking about what your needs were and looking after you in that moment. yeah And that isn't common to...
00:25:43
Speaker
I wonder what knowledge is that. She's fantastic. You know, she's she's incredible of what she does and the way that she speaks to you. It's just... It was was just very comforting, even though it was a very dark time.
00:25:59
Speaker
And she was like, you'll do all of this, you'll go on your holiday, and then when you come back, right, we're going to find out what's going on. was like that, you know. I went and I i went and i had um The DNC Alexandria, I think, Day Stay Hospital.
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah, and um I just
00:26:27
Speaker
remember, like, lying there on the bed just before you go out and I'm like, I'm going to wake up and I'm not going to be mum. I just thought that I was like, I'm not going to be a mum now. Like, that was it and I went off.
00:26:42
Speaker
I remember I woke up and had Cheryl in my face, was comforting. Yeah. It was like, oh, good, I get to see someone that I know. And she's like, I'm going to call Alan and you can go home.
00:26:56
Speaker
And I was in recovery and there was just – because obviously, like, it's a ah day stay hospital, so there's all sorts of things happening. And I remember there was this baby, like, next to us crying.
00:27:10
Speaker
And I was just like –
00:27:19
Speaker
Again, i was just so spaced out and out of it, but so hurt and just crumbling inside. And the nurse that was there, she was like, she picked up on it, which was good.
00:27:31
Speaker
And she said, I'm so sorry. I'm just going to like move you. We'll take you somewhere else and you can go home. We'll just, you know. So I um ended up being put on Clexate injections so that we could fly.
00:27:45
Speaker
We went, obviously, on the trip. It was honestly the hardest thing, one of the hardest things. I wanted it to be nice and I wanted it to be special for us, but it just wasn't. It was everything but that.
00:28:01
Speaker
And it was hard because we were with family and no one really understood what we were going through. it how it felt and I just there were days where I just stayed in bed in the hotel and I just couldn't do anything I couldn't go anywhere and I I was just so so lost so lost and just so upset and
00:28:30
Speaker
but also thinking to myself I'm here and I'm just away from everything and I didn't want to go back yeah I didn't want to go back home. I just knew what I was going to face.
00:28:45
Speaker
um we We ended up finding out the results from my DNC when we got back and we were quite unlucky.
00:28:58
Speaker
we We found out that our baby had trisomy 10 disorder
00:29:12
Speaker
It's a very rare sphere chromosomal disorder.
00:29:22
Speaker
It's where um a third copy of Chromosome 10 exists. And that was just unlucky. Yeah. But at this point you're like, fuck you universe. I'm so over this. I'm like, I just, fuck.
00:29:36
Speaker
And like the other thing that was very confronting and we weren't prepared for with that paperwork that we were given was it gave us a gender
00:29:47
Speaker
and we and that was like the first thing we saw like I was just like it's a boy I've had similar and there's again no conversation no preparation and it's just there in front of you and for me it made it ours was a girl yeah and it was also our third loss felt real because then... Yeah, it does. It feels more real. And again, that news really should be delivered with a lot more sensitivity and empathy. Yeah.
00:30:20
Speaker
Because it can be quite confronting, particularly when you didn't ask for it. yeah Yeah. And I was like, i don't even know what drives 10 years at this point. So Google, of course. Oh, God, yeah. You know, like... Yeah, it was it was a lot.
00:30:36
Speaker
But yeah, the gender... Finding out the gender just absolutely killed us. Like, it just tore us up in ways that we just can't describe, especially, like, when I knew that's what my husband wanted, a little boy.
00:30:50
Speaker
And I was like, fucking hell, like... Like you said, like, the universe is just shitting on you. At this point, has anyone offered you any counselling at all?
00:31:05
Speaker
Yes. So... When we went back and we saw Cheryl um and we decided to have some tests and scans done, she had offered to speak to IVF Australia, counsellor, which we did start to do yeah as a couple, which actually was fantastic.
Counseling and Emotional Strength
00:31:25
Speaker
it was It was probably the best thing we could have done for each other because at that point it was affecting our marriage, our relationship. Understandably. people don't know. like lots of family, like even our own family, like we struggled, even though like Alan is like my absolute rock and there's just, I couldn't ask for anyone better to have experienced and gone through this with. It's made us so strong and our marriage so strong. You you know, like this sort of experience, it's like,
00:32:01
Speaker
so It's so taxing and I feel like it just puts years on your relationship. We'd only just been married for like you know so many months. It was just crazy that we'd already been through so much together.
00:32:13
Speaker
um But, yeah, in in saying that, the counselling was good um and it gave Alan an opportunity um to obviously share how he felt. he He did his own support counselling as well.
00:32:30
Speaker
He had to, whereas with me, I kind of did this and then I just went back to work and I pretended like I'm fine. Like I'm just – I tried to be hard. I tried to just, you know. Brave face it. Yeah, and just get through like putting my head down and going to work. And Alan really struggled.
00:32:51
Speaker
But –
00:32:54
Speaker
Yeah, through all of this, we we then, as I said, we started to have some further testing done. Obviously, Alan had a semen analysis test. He got all the ticks of approval.
00:33:06
Speaker
So count, motility, morphology, everything was fine. um i found out my AMH was quite low as well with these tests because, of course, when we were being pregnant, like I couldn't do these tests when we met with Cheryl on the 31st as well. So now that I'm not pregnant, I could do all these other tests and things.
00:33:27
Speaker
I had a genetic carrier screening done. No problem. And I did a series of blood tests where we had picked up that I had factor V Leiden.
00:33:41
Speaker
And... I remember Cheryl called me and she was like, Natalie, I found something. Mind you, I'm at work and every time she would call me, I would have to like run and hide like somewhere so no one knew what I was talking about. And like I could just be you know in a quiet space if I needed to be emotional.
00:34:03
Speaker
and I just didn't even really know what it was at the time. And she said, you know, this is like a blood clotting disease and it can affect obviously the pregnancies that you've had in the past. We don't know what happened with the first ones. We know what's happened with the third one, but this could definitely be like a factor, contributing factor. um It does increase the risk of pregnancy loss.
00:34:26
Speaker
um I think it's um two or three times more likely to have like multiple pregnancies recurring miscarriages in women that have this condition so she had said um you'll need to go on clexine injections for the next pregnancy and we'll use progesterone as we have in the past said okay um i also did a sonohistogram because she wanted to see the shape of uter of my uterus so that was interesting
00:35:01
Speaker
That was painful. That was a horrible test. Bloody horrible test. I found out that I had... What
00:35:10
Speaker
ah was the condition?
00:35:15
Speaker
adenomyosis which is a type of um endometriosis so there's endometrial tissue that is present in the like muscle lining of uterus so was like okay another thing does that mean like i don't know like but just another like thing to add to everything so Cheryl was obviously wanting us to decide what we wanted to do. We could either do IVF or we could do cycle tracking.
00:35:47
Speaker
And she said, it's up to you guys. Like, I don't want you to have to go through the pain and all of that again. And we decided that we wanted to do the cycle tracking and with IVF Australia, and we did. So we didn't actually go through IVF.
00:36:02
Speaker
um And November twenty we had a positive... test and that was um our little rainbow baby that we have now so through poking the prodding all tests like everything I think like the 230 odd clexane injections that I'd taken because it was like as soon as we found out with Cheryl we
00:36:33
Speaker
We started that and then at 37 weeks I stopped and then I had to take six weeks after the delivery as well. um It was it was it was a crazy, crazy ride.
00:36:45
Speaker
and I'm so grateful. At that point, I would do anything, you know. like I was like, I'll stand on my head for three hours every night just to make sure that this this baby comes. And it was was beautiful.
00:37:01
Speaker
like it was a beautiful experience being pregnant, but so daunting at the same time. You know, you go to every ultrasound, like holding your breath, you feel sick, you want to vomit. You're looking for that flicker every single time. All the blood tests. I remember when we were doing the tracking and I found out I was pregnant. I went to IVF Australia nearly every day. Yeah.
00:37:23
Speaker
Checking my hormone levels like a nut job because I just needed to know. And it was like same thing. I'm at work. I went and hid.
A Successful Pregnancy After Loss
00:37:30
Speaker
And I'm like on the phone going, yep, yep, okay, okay. So that's pretty good. Yep, they're high. Cool. No worries. Like I had to know.
00:37:36
Speaker
I was just... And you can breathe out for a tiny moment when you get that little bit of good news. Yeah. But then it's almost like what we hear and what I experience is it just comes back again. That anxiety and that fear. And all of second guessing every little feeling. yeah Every time you go to toilet, check in for blood. Yeah.
00:37:54
Speaker
Yeah. Pregnancy after loss is an absolute... I can't even think of the word right now. It's like a whole other phase of like what you go through with this. Everyone again assumes that a miscarriage is a point in time. that um how awful that you had three losses back to back but then they assume okay so you've got so far in this pregnancy now this baby's going to come you're okay because you passed this 12-week marker but we talked about this on the phone yeah that it doesn't just magically disappear you're holding your baby like yeah to me that was like that's when I will feel the comfort that he's here safe and yeah it's all going to be okay and
00:38:32
Speaker
and everything I ate like I didn't even take Panadol like I was so strict with everything that I did I tried so hard to make sure that I didn't contribute anything I wouldn't miss an injection i just was this was so precious this baby was so precious to me and i just wouldn't do anything to make sure that he got here safe and yeah it was i mean even when we got that third We'd had that third pregnancy test and seen that it was positive and we got the blood work and everything. I mean, the excitement obviously is there again, but it's just that light is just dimmed because yeah all the trauma, of everything you've been through. the people that you speak to, the experiences you have with family, with friends, like passing comments, just the language that we've spoken about that's just terrible in some ways.
00:39:29
Speaker
so if we consider that, like what language, what did you need to hear from loved ones, family, friends? What do you think they need to do to show up for yourself when you're in a moment, like perhaps you've just had your second loss?
00:39:45
Speaker
Obviously, all you want to hear is sorry, right? I'm sorry for your loss. I'm sorry this is happening to you Sometimes people just don't know how to react. They don't know what to say and the silence doesn't help.
00:39:57
Speaker
People might think that silence is it's fine. When you go through something like this, even if it's one time in your life, I mean, we experienced it three times. It's just, it's such a painful thing that you can't put words into and to not even have an acknowledgement of anything is crazy like not even a hug nothing um
00:40:23
Speaker
i think obviously the loss is the hardest thing but we like we spoke about to um
00:40:33
Speaker
how people felt uncomfortable to talk about it and you are worried about their feelings and how they're going to respond and so you don't say anything or you don't talk about it and it's a topic that you think, oh, it's too much for that person to handle so we won't go there and have that conversation.
00:40:55
Speaker
um
00:40:59
Speaker
But... They're scared of upsetting us so they feel like they say nothing is better but actually then we feel even more hurt by the silence and the isolation because we feel like they don't see our grief. We feel like they're not acknowledging it. Yeah. And they feel like they don't truly understand what we're going through. It just would have been nice to just...
00:41:19
Speaker
And I mean, look, we did have people, obviously I can't take away from that, we did have people that reached out to us and friends and family that that were supportive in that sense, but there was a lot of people too that didn't.
00:41:31
Speaker
They didn't get it. And again, it's not on them in many ways. It's on this conversation in society starting much earlier. yeah Like I have conversations with my children around miscarriage. They know that there were three more babies in our family that didn't get to make it. And if someone asks us, they they get included in our family. yeah Because what I want to raise, particularly with my boy, like i want him to be able to have conversations around miscarriage really confidently. Because chances are, I get to parent three children now. The chances are that three of those, one of them might actually have to go through this themselves. Yeah. And it can't stay the same. We have to change this for them now. Yep.
00:42:10
Speaker
Yeah, so obviously when my doctor had suggested, and and Cheryl did too, I have to say, she did as well. And I was like, I'm already like onto it. And she was like, that's good, that's good. um But yeah, I think I went to your website first and I had a flick through and I went to the Instagram page and it sort of summarised a lot of like what you had on your website.
00:42:32
Speaker
um And I just thought... fuck, this is how I feel. These people get it. Like, this is exactly what I want to say to someone. This is exactly how I'm feeling right now. And I just loved it. And I connected so deeply. And then I'm pretty sure it was on your Instagram page. I think I came across the podcast.
00:42:53
Speaker
and And this is when we were really in the thick of it. And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to take a listen. I don't know what I'm going to hear. And I'm so glad that I did.
00:43:05
Speaker
Because really helped me so much, those commutes to work, when I just felt like I had that, like, 30, 40 minutes to myself to hear your voice every day. That's strange. It was comforting and...
00:43:22
Speaker
um to hear the other ladies share their stories was very empowering and the connection I felt and that sense of belonging to yes, this is this is exactly what we're going through and I feel like this. And it just, it helped me hearing other people.
00:43:43
Speaker
You know, we were breaking the silence essentially, right? Yeah. to this whole topic. And I just, yeah, I felt like, um i felt like i really needed that i needed to hear other people's experiences that's just me that's what i needed and i needed to yeah just i suppose after decompress and go you know what like this is this is really good this is this is what i needed And then when I felt like I couldn't share my story and explain that to it, like a family member or a friend, I sent them podcast and I would say, you listen to this, go like two minutes such and such and this is this is actually what I am experiencing right now. This is what we found as well.
00:44:35
Speaker
Like we sent it to our parents. Mm-hmm. I sent it to friends and I sent it to oh my god I did Alan's head in i did his head in I was like oh listen to this one listen to this one listen and um yeah it was just honestly what I needed and I know everybody needs something different but I needed to hear other people share their stories. hear that so much because it's something beautiful about hearing someone else's story and feeling less alone in your own. Yeah. Because you feel seen. Yeah.
00:45:08
Speaker
And it's a language that we use as well because there is that knowing of, oh they just get this. That's it. I'm there too. Yeah. Yeah. And then I connected with you both the first time when Pink Elephants held like a walk.
00:45:21
Speaker
Yeah. Which was, I think, in a West Glebe way. It was in Glebe. Yeah. I remember both of you there. And I remember feeling a bit bad because I had my children with me. Like I said, my husband was overseas and I was like, oh my God, um I've started this thing to help people. And i could see that you guys were definitely in the depths of it.
00:45:40
Speaker
There's just a knowing because I've been there too, right? And then I've got like Rose, my youngest, and she was like a toddler at the time. and I just yeah cut it's she's she's wild um but I remember feeling bad and I remember thinking oh are we doing more harm than good here but then we chatted and it wasn't that was it it was so fun and there were a lot of other women there partners like they had their kids and yeah it was we were fine with it um yeah it was beautiful actually and it was nice to connect with other people there as well and share stories and what others had been through and
00:46:18
Speaker
Yeah, it makes a difference again. It's just that sense of connection, right? which reduces the isolation. Absolutely. And I share that because I hope what people hear is that I don't always get this right either.
00:46:29
Speaker
I've got lived experience. I'm leading from my heart and my experience and from listening to you guys and other people. And I'm trying my hardest too. And what I want people to hear is you don't have to get this right every time.
00:46:41
Speaker
We just need you to show up and be there. And often that makes the biggest difference. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. No, it was um it was was really nice. I'm glad that we went. It took me a while to get out of the car, but yeah I mustered up the courage and, yeah.
00:46:59
Speaker
And then I followed your journey since because I remember connecting on Instagram. And I can't tell you that like there's some people that I get to connect with and there's this kind of like holding space and you're like please, please, please let it be their turn soon. Please, please, please. yes And then I saw your beautiful baby boy. And there's just this absolute immense joy that I feel in those moments. And I i get to love what I get to do, the privilege it is yeah when I get to see those. um i just Yeah, it's amazing.
00:47:29
Speaker
I guess what I think we should wrap on is we've looked back, we've looked at your experience and we're kind of using this episode, this series, sorry, to look at a decade of impact.
00:47:40
Speaker
What change would you like to see? What hope is there for the future for women and partners like us that have gone through this? What should it be like for them?
00:47:53
Speaker
It's hard, you know, because... There are such such great like support networks like yourself, but it's still so hard to find.
Advocacy for Miscarriage Awareness
00:48:02
Speaker
And it's hard to find, I think, for partners, definitely, who don't know what to do for a grieving
00:48:14
Speaker
partner. And I just, i I would hope that there are more doctors that are educated, that understand how they need to speak, what they need to provide,
00:48:28
Speaker
um Even suggesting counselling at an early stage, you know, like why is it that you need to go through ah multiple losses for that then to be, you know, given to you as an option to get through what you're going through?
00:48:44
Speaker
um And I think as well for family members and friends because they also need educating and it's not up to you, person who's experiencing this or the couple that's experiencing this. Mm-hmm.
00:48:59
Speaker
I would like to see that there's something there that reaches further in that sense where if you aren't sure what to say to someone, just for them to know that you're there and what to say.
00:49:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's... yeah It's just very it's very hard. It's very hard because I feel like we are put in those positions to say what we want or what we need and it would be nice if they had the tools.
00:49:31
Speaker
I don't know what that looks like. I do. Good. I can't help but go there. I hear a couple of things. ah I think that we did actually chat about this as well, that If, for example, someone was going through domestic violence, we don't expect them to advocate for themselves in that moment.
00:49:48
Speaker
We expect that the system is set up to support them at different points and make a difference. If someone is going through, say, a cancer diagnosis, the same, they are wrapped in holistic care and support. Any other type of bereavement, you're offered counselling straight away. yeah yeah Miscarriage.
00:50:03
Speaker
has been so underserved. The narratives that exist around it are so false and that have perpetuated this myth that we just get on with it because it was early and it didn't really matter.
00:50:14
Speaker
And I'm here to say that's absolute bullshit for the majority of us. We feel these losses deeply, profoundly. We love our babies. What we want is them acknowledging. We want our grief seen and acknowledging. We want to be empathized with. We want to be met where we are. We want you to wrap us in love and support like you would any other type of loss And we want you to connect us to support. So if you are listening to this because someone like Nat, a family member, has sent this to you to understand, there are things that you can do. And I urge you to spend two minutes on Pink Elephant's website and have a look. We've got to use your words resource. We've got how to support a loved one on there. It takes less than a couple of minutes to educate yourself to then be that person for your loved one and show up for them how they need you to.
00:50:57
Speaker
Yeah. I want to thank you so much. Thank Because I know what bravery it takes to come to sit here and to share something that is deeply personal, painful, and to share it.
00:51:10
Speaker
And you share it because you know it will help someone. That's so, so brave, and it makes makes such a difference. And we can't do this without other people walking alongside us and being part of this collective. So ah ah'd like thank you so much. Thank you. no Thank you for having me.
00:51:25
Speaker
Thank you for letting me share. Yeah.