Transcript
Speaker: Welcome back season three of the miscarriage rebellion on today's podcast. I have Julian and Maddie Simmons, Julian and Maddie Simmons made huge support for pink elephants with our leave for loss campaign. When Julian was a former MP, in federal parliament.
Speaker: You opened so many doors for us, Julian. The difference that you made was incredible. We wouldn't have been able to get the legislation through without your support. And Maddy, that was through you as well. Yeah. And you should have almost died already.
Speaker: Oh, no, it barely started. There will be tears. Yeah. i'm Your energy and permission for Julian to use your story and to share that in such a public setting when it was such a private and real grief and you're actually still in and on your journey at that point was an incredibly brave thing to do. So I want to thank you as well for that.
Speaker: I am going to start with asking you to tell the listeners about your experience and what landed you to be so connected to pink elephants. And I'll start with you, Maddie, if that's all right. Yeah, of course. You know, everyone's heard this story. um If someone says relax, that's normally when you when you fall pregnant. So we did was it two years of full-time IVF. We did nine rounds of IVF.
Speaker: um sold our house sold our cars when on a very long holiday quit um i came home and i found out i was pregnant with our first theo who's almost nine um and then after you know we we thought we've we've done the hard yards it's going to be easy for us from now on in um and i had three miscarriages in between um theo and lottie I figure one, Izzy, sorry, third child, you know what it's like, you forget their names. um and And that was when Julian was in federal parliament and I remember him calling me, you know, you have these disjointed conversations with kids yelling in the background. And I said, sweetie, how was your day? And he said, I've met this amazing woman, you'd love her You have to come and meet Sam. And he told me about the work you were doing. and
Speaker: I guess that was all a bit foreign to me because I had a a wonderful boss at the time and you know, i I didn't have to explain much. I walked into his office, burst into tears and said, of'm going home. um And I think I just didn't understand how lucky I was and that not everyone had that privilege.
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. And that's what we were hearing. We talked about this earlier off camera that leave for loss came because within the Pink Elephants communities, we were witnessing people sharing their experiences of returning to work the same day as they'd had the news that they'd lost their baby on a scan that morning or going back to work while still bleeding from a procedure to remove their baby and having to present in boardrooms, present to teams, like just work with their colleagues when they just weren't ready yet at all and so I went down this rabbit hole of what is the legislation where what what is that and found that there was no legislation in place for pregnancy loss prior to 12 weeks there was special maternity leave post 12 weeks but nothing prior and then connected with Julian and I don't think it could have been more fortuitous timing Julian do you want to tell us a little bit more about our first kind of connection yeah
Speaker: Yeah, definitely. um And i I saw the campaign as something that that was would be close to us and something that that we wanted to get involved with. Like, Maddie's probably been very generous, but but in terms of the terms of the story of IVF, there was a lot in there, wasn't there? Like, like you know... um because Because, you know, within all of those rounds and over many years, we really did have a bit of everything. You know, like like we we had scenarios where, ah you know, we didn't get enough eggs or there were some scenarios where we got eggs and they didn't fertilize and then they were fertilized and they were planted and they didn't take. And then when they did take, it didn't last. And so we really felt like we'd been through the whole our spectrum of... of, of what, it what it means to have early pregnancy loss, um, in, in, in every sense of the word. And so, um, you know, when I saw what you were proposing, um, and I guess, you know, when you're, when you're in politics, you get a lot of groups come to you and you get a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of causes that, and and all of them are great, you know, like how do you pick the best of, of, of what is all good. Um, But, you know, when we met, a it it obviously resonated with us. and
Speaker: but But B, you you had a really tangible solution, you know, and a lot don't. A lot just have ah have a problem and they're problems. There's no doubt about it. And they're problems that need to be solved. But you had a tangible solution that could be implemented and I could see a pathway of how we how we might do it. And so... That was all the encouragement that we needed. But, you know, go back to your original question, the the the it was it was important for me that Maddie met you because I could tell from the beginning that... you know To get people enthused about this because it was going to be hard, they needed to understand the personal connection that I was bringing to it. And I couldn't have done that unless that both Maddie and I were willing to share together. So so hence the initial meaning.
Speaker: And I remember the sharing and I remember the articles that we got and the news and the media. And that definitely went a long way to driving support for this campaign because I feel like when we tell these stories, there's an aha moment of recognition as to why it's so important that we have things like bereavement leave in place for these experiences, but all sorts of other systems and policy change as well because there's a they hear and they see themselves in these stories and there's a realisation that there isn't much in place for early pregnancy loss or fertility journeys. that it's almost particularly even with IVF, that system has advanced so quickly, but yet policy's not quite caught up to what it's needed to support people. And workplaces haven't had education tools, they're not equipped. And that comes back to your tangible point, right? Pink elephants were ready. We had a tangible case for support. We knew what we wanted to do. we needed the doors opened. And I will come back to that and how we went about that, because I think that's still of interest. But I also want to tap a little bit more into nine rounds.
Speaker: Like that's a huge amount for anyone to go through. We only stopped because the doctor basically said to us, listen, we're just, this isn't science anymore. This is just a bit of art. We're just going to mix with mix and match doses and see how we go. And we just felt like that was such a, yeah like there wasn't much in that, you know. We had um we we started this the whole journey with my long-term OBGYN, who's a wonderful man, and and you know I don't see him very often anymore, but but couldn't have survived it without him, and we ended up going to see a se second specialist because we thought you know there' there was no actual reason why it didn't work. they couldn't you know there was We did all of the testing. There was nothing medically complicated about either of us, if you want to use those words. It was just...
Speaker: you know it was the vibe i remember one of the second specialist we saw said oh maybe you're just not compatible and we both burst out laughing but um i think we had a very dry sense yeah yeah we were both just you know we we were very driven people and we thought we would work really hard it'll have to happen and and i think to julian's point about why we were so willing to help with the pink elephants thing is we never took the time we just kept pushing on and pushing on and pushing on and pushing on and it wasn't until after that we stopped and thought we never stopped and thought about this i never took enough time off i didn't i didn't process the grief and we're very lucky that we ended up with three beautiful children but if it hadn't ended up that way i'm just not sure where i would have been mentally
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And that's often so common. We see that so much with Pink Elephants community that women and their partners are so ready because you're so driven by the outcome of wanting a baby in your arms. that You just go again and again and again yeah and again. Yeah. And it's chipping away at you on the inside often, but we're not talking about it. We're not supporting women and their partners through it. We're not having enough conversations, enough validation, empathy. And it's only often when you come out the other side that you start to kind of process. Like, I know for me as well, I ended up with postpartum anxiety with Johnny. I didn't i don't remember the first four months of him because I was such a hot mess because by that point I'd finally got a baby in my arms and I...
Speaker: started to exhale but started to process. yeah um i I remember someone making a snide comment to me and I can't of remember who it was but they said, oh, you know, you've worked so hard to have a baby, you wouldn't want to complain about it afterwards and I think i found that really difficult when Thea was a baby. I thought, I have dreamed and wanted this for so long. And now it's actually really hard. Yeah. And it's important that we allow Yeah. Yeah. I can say that too as well. I found my babies really hard at times and it's okay for us to find it hard. there's a duality of both of these things, right? And we need to talk about it. It's almost as well with pregnancy after loss, right? How we're expected to be really grateful and we forget about all that business of trying to conceive, fertility, miscarriage. Oh, well done. You're pregnant now.
Speaker: It's almost like you that's okay, you've solved the problem, but we're forgetting about everything that we've just been through to land here. I'm not okay, I haven't quite landed yet. Often we see women experiencing huge amounts of anxiety, yeah men trying to hold space, trying to work it out for the partner, and it doesn't always work out, right? you You could end up back in another loss cycle. And we don't talk about that pregnancy after loss anywhere near enough. I remember i um a GP, sorry, sweetie, I remember a GP saying to me that, you know, it is it is akin to going through, you know...
Speaker: ah like going through cancer or something like that it is it is long-term proper trauma and no one talks about it and you and you spend a lot of time with pink health it's trying to get people to have the resources to talk about and take the time to talk about it and what are the drivers for not talking about it and just wanting to get back out there and then there is a whole um There is a whole gamut of early pregnancy loss within IVF that for a whole of reasons, you're right, is it has extra pressure not to just to get on with it and do the next one and push on. So there's a lot of drivers there about why people should take the time talk. 100%. How is it balancing all of this whilst being in high functioning careers, professional lives, both of you? I think we'll combine that with the fact that we got married quite young. We met when I was very young and we got married after a couple years later. And I think, you know, the second you get married, everyone's like, when are you going When are you to baby? When are you to a baby? And at first I'd say, oh, no, no, I'm too young. And then when I realised I was going to have problems, you know, we did start trying IVF. Yeah.
Speaker: you know even after Even after sharing our story publicly, I'd have people come up and say, oh when are you going to have another one? i'm excited I'd piss off. It's not that easy for everyone. and And there's this fine balance between being supportive and asking people if they're okay. and minding your own business yes and and because julian had a a public career it was something i'd got asked you know we'd be at a kindergarten opening or a you know a school fight and people would say do you have any kids are you going to have kids are you trying i thought like just but be a little more sensitive maybe it's not that easy for everyone
Speaker: Yeah, absolutely. We don't need to be asking people about their families and they're having kids. If they've got a family, they'll volunteer it. I talk about my kids every second I get the chance whether the people ask or not. Yeah, it's totally, right? Yeah, 100%. How did you find balancing it a whilst trying to look after Maddie and yourself as well? Yeah, I mean, um we, ah I mean, I guess it was just, it's just like any other busy career. we We always had something to go to and, you know, maybe with politics, there's a lot more weekend stuff and things like that. But, you know, like I remember Maddie was trying to forge a career and and she's, um you know, she's trying to keep the injections at the work fridge. And and i'm I'm ducking out of, you know, it was then I was then in council, so I was ducking out of civic cabinet meetings to go up to Spring Hill to to do things. But, but, but. That's cool.
Speaker: Yeah, two things. That was diplomatic of me. Because loves Julie. But it's the of it, right? It's not glamorous. Yes, that's right. It's very odd thing to kind of do anything. But look, there but but it's just like busy careers. And I think, um as I'm sure you look back and everybody looks back, you think at the time it felt like we were really busy and we couldn't spend the time on it, but actually you you really could. Yeah. You weren't doing anything world shattering. So it was, it was if if we if we had our time again, we'd spend more more time on it. and i like just making you know But you always feel like you're you're busy and balancing. But the reality is you can take a lot of time for this stuff. It's important.
Speaker: But maybe that kind of helped with the grieving process too. You know, we we would, if we could go back in time, not that I'd want to, we would have taken more time and and dealt with it and looked after ourselves in our relationship a bit better. But I think being able to help pink elephants in the small way that we did, certainly for me.
Speaker: met felt like you know wasn't all it wasn't as small it was huge not compared to what you do but um i think it was an important part of my grief process being able to help make a difference 100 that's called translational grieving yeah probably why we you get on as well right is that feeling of needing to do something to propel forward to fix almost and you kind of realize halfway through you can't actually fix this we can't take the bereavement and the grief away for people But we can make sure that systems are set up to ensure that they're met with validation, and empathy, and connection. And one of those systems is workplaces, right, that we need to look at. We spend so much of our time in the workplace. yeah And for me, it was just abhorrent that I was hearing all of these examples in our communities. And i was like, what do we do about this? How do we change this? it's Like, this is not good enough. And, like, to ringing up Fair Work Act of Australia and speaking to some random person being like, you must change this. was like, you can't just change the laws. why not? How? Yeah.
Speaker: and then like i said the universe was fortuitous we did get connected and then you were incredible i think that's a really nice segue to move there again like you obviously met with us you could see that we had a tangible case for support you understood how we could kind of get this through and talk us through what it was like for you when we had the meeting with the it was the former attorney general at the time yeah um so as in michaela cash No, before that we met with Christian Porter. Oh, yeah, you're right. Remember when came to Canberra? It was like just before all the lockdowns, right? We were just okay. Yeah. No, I definitely saw tangible pathway and I saw something that we could adjust and, you know, could make a difference. I saw that this was a cause that had a brilliant advocate in yourself, Sam, because, no, don't underestimate it because you do need somebody who can... sit in those meetings and talk intelligently and um and talk about the cause and why it's important um so i i didn't have any doubt if i could get you in the room you'd you'd carry the day um i think you know a as a government backbencher as i was at the time you only kind of get to you only get a couple of shots know um so have to make sure people just want money Yeah, most of the time it works. You've got make sure you're using on something worthwhile and that it's going to work. So think all credit to you that, you know, you can't underestimate it was a difficult thing to do and a challenging thing to do because... You know, said, oh, somebody told you you can't just change the law. Of course you can just change the law. But this is... The law that you were talking about changing was the Fair Work Act, which for Conservative the Liberal Party is pretty much a third rail of politics after work choices. So you don't, as a rule, from that side of politics, you don't want to touch the Fair Work Act. And then you've got to go through the House, you've got to bargain in the Senate and all the rest of it. But, you know, I think we were kind of able to work it through the process really well thanks to advocacy. Yeah, you were incredible. Like, because prior to you, we had tried and we'd got meetings, but we were getting in with advisors. We weren't getting in with the right people. The doors weren't opening for us.
Speaker: And so I think it was a really good, like we were a team, right? There was like Pink Elephants knowing the need, the advocacy, you knowing it from lived experience, you knowing how politics work to be able to open up the right avenues and channels and pathways. It was, yeah. And then obviously the PR, yeah telling the story, telling your story. Yeah.
Speaker: I think that also made that grassroots movement of Leave for Lost and giving it a campaign, a name, so that people everyday people could understand it as well. Yeah, and making it personal is so important. As ah as I said, you know we found it difficult telling our story, but at least we were telling it for a reason and it had a purpose. Yeah.
Speaker: You know, we had to we had to overcome, you know, we did. We had Christian Porter and Michael Couches, the two AGs across across the time, see the merits in it. And, you know, we we were fortuitous that that they were opening up the Fair Work Act for something else. And yet here, and it was all, you know, was pretty straightforward stuff, but here was something that they could put in that that would actually make a difference at a time, you know, rather than just...
Speaker: administrative ledge changes. um we had to do We had to do a bit of work, didn't we? I mean, they originally came back and said they worried about the impact on small business. You'd expect that, you know, because because leave costs cost money at the end of the day. And we were able to get a donor to to pay for some some polling around small you know directly with small business people to say hey you know would you see this as a negative is it an impact would help you attract staff and overwhelmingly it was positive and that was that was probably a really nice moment for you to see it return that that yeah businesses as well could see that this was something that their staff would need and they were willing to willing to incorporate it uh we used a couple of
Speaker: business champions didn't we of people who had already committed to significantly for loss kind of leave that you had already signed up um so that was great that that gave them a lot of a lot of a lot of comfort um but like then i had to go and you know i had to sell it in my party room and and and you know explain it and people People spoke against it, believe it or not. so you know you you know you can you know there was you know ah We won't mention names, but there were some you know crazy conservative politicians, quite frankly, who were worried about whether this would lead something and you know and you know lead to uninend you know lead to unintended consequences, perhaps if I could put it diplomatically that.
Speaker: Which, you know, as people have been through it, it's just obscene, but people need to have their say and and and that's fine. We got through all of that. um And so, you know, we overcame a bit to to see it to fruition.
Speaker: Yeah, and we did. and i like just talking now, it kind of takes me It all comes back, doesn't it? I remember when you two, I think, um must have been either the travel ban had lived at the end of COVID. I remember having the kids in the office and you two went off to a meeting and sitting there being like, oh my God, I hope this is going to go well. Yeah, yeah well, and we and we I think we it went through the house and that was a great moment because I got to speak on it and I really enjoyed that because I felt like...
Speaker: I think we need to share that. I've done my part. We're going to put that cliff in this because it was epic. I'm going to have to go back and read that. Yeah. I enjoyed it and I made personal with Maddie's permission. But then there was a bit of horse trading in the Senate. But to be fair to everyone, I think this was something that was supported in the end, supported by all sides of politics in the Senate. Other aspects of the legislation that they were getting through at the time wasn't, but this one was. So, you know, It seems like a no-brainy ludicrous. The alternative was you had to say were sick. Yeah. I wasn't sick. Yeah. Well, yes. And we were, think you were probably able to, Sam, to talk to us about...
Speaker: you know give us some of the case studies that we're able to talk to the attorney general about well you know this is why it isn't a great isn't much of a financial impact because the reality is people are using other leave to do it anyway like sick leave but i mean then you've got get a doctor's certificate or you've got to talk to your boss about it and it should be something that people are just able to put their hands up and say i want to take bereavement leave and And that's it. And it was coming back to that. It was less about the amount of leave because we'll get that as well in a minute. But it was more around the validation and removing this disenfranchised grief that we don't see these babies. So therefore they didn't really exist. So therefore there's no real grief. Is this dot that people are joining in in their head whether they know it or not prior to bereavement leave. And so we needed it to be bereavement leave because what that does is it's a permission slip to say, hey, you've lost your baby.
Speaker: It's okay to grieve the loss of your baby. And now, like what I'm working with, like years later, we get to work with incredible workplaces that are offering an average of five to 10 days leave now for this. So they're going beyond the Fair Work Act. And they're saying, actually, what type of leave works? Can you give us some advice? And Pink Elephants consults on that now because it makes a difference. Right. And it's this beautiful, profound ripple effect that gets to carry on now. It's a good way of. of the government and then the private sector working in tandem because that's what the government should do, should provide a minimum safety net and that's what it does with parental leave and other things and then businesses should be encouraged to say, hey, you want to attract the best people, go above and beyond this and put in place something that really legitimises it. So I think just because we're just because we've got the legislation there as a safety net now doesn't mean we shouldn't be pushing corporates to to do a lot more. And Pink Elephants continues to do that, and we will for a long time to come because there's so many more that need to get involved. And it makes a difference, right? We know then the return to work experience is something that where they feel seen, supported, you're less likely to have absenteeism, you're less likely to have presenteeism, all those things that we know are not conductive to a productive workplace anyway. And it shouldn't be about numbers, but I can give numbers if I need to.
Speaker: um But I absolutely like it was a momentous time for Pink Elephants like Leave for Loss like it's the biggest advocacy campaign and success that we've run and we're incredibly proud of the difference we've got to make. How does it feel for you to knowing that you played such an integral role with your experience in championing that change?
Speaker: look I don't feel like I played a big role at all. like I spoke to a couple of journos and I did my hair for the first time in a week to take a photo. I think that was about it. um ah It was the least I could do.
Speaker: i think it i think it validates what happened to us. You know what it's like. you You fall in love the second that line goes pink. It doesn't matter what happens after that. You're in love and they're a part of your family. And I still feel very lucky.
Speaker: yeah sorry no it's totally okay yeah and i think it shows how connected we still are right yeah no i love that yeah no we're very pleased to do it and if we only got um to do one thing we're pleased it was that It was epic one thing. I'm just going to say that.
Speaker: So we go forward now and after all of your experiences and looking at Pink Elephants and where Pink Elephants is now, what are your hopes for the future for people who have to go through IVF or pregnancy loss? What do you want to see for them? What's your hopes? I think I want people to talk about it more publicly. You know, everyone everyone holds back until, you know, 12 weeks or 13 weeks, whatever whatever test you do um to wait. And I completely understand that. I never, you know, other than probably my mum and my sisters, we never talked about it before that because you're so scared about...
Speaker: losing it or something happening but that's actually when you need the most support you know you don't have to shout it out from rooftops you don't have to do a social media post but you should be able to tell people in your network you know you should be able to say to your workplace actually you know i I don't want to lift that or or I need to spend some time from home. you know, I've got to care for myself first and foremost. I think I'd like to see more people talking about it.
Speaker: um To my point earlier, I think people should be a little more sensitive about asking, you know, just because you've had one good experience or or it was really easy for you. Don't assume that that's what's going on for everyone else.
Speaker: Just a bit of care and compassion around it all. Yeah, that's right. And not not talking about it publicly in the sense that we talked about it publicly. But, yeah, we probably only told two people, you know, parents and things like that. And and then even then, probably not even every time it happened. So so having, you know, every people talking about it with friends a bit more because, you know, when we did talk about it,
Speaker: in the in the In the paper, you know, lot of people are going through it and, you know, if you're if Pink Elephants is out there providing information and if doctors are actually providing, you know, the Pink Elephants website so that people have somewhere to go and talk about it when when it happens, then... that will be that will be uh overall a big a big change i think and i think this is stuff that's um on your website i'll admit it's been a while since i've been on there but i think it's not just being able to talk about it's what you should say to someone in return you know like if i had a dollar for everyone to say oh you'll get there or oh well this is early try again i'll just relax oh just relax just relax uh it's horrible um i think because at that point it's not really about trying to get pregnant it's about grieving the yeah the loss yeah and you really need to come at it if you're if you have somebody talking to about it you need to come back to it as if yeah they're grieving a loss and what you would say if they'd lost somebody yeah exactly more akin to that is yeah someone lose a grandparent you don't say you'll get another one no you know no don't so they need to be considered on the on the same page and i think the response is as much um is probably more important than people feeling comfortable enough to talk about it in the first place yeah and it comes back to the same thing that leave for loss was about validation yeah
Speaker: validation that this is a loss a loss that's worthy of grief a loss that deserves grief that deserves support and a whole lot of empathy around it and we're making that happen and leave loss was a huge step in the right direction and honestly we still get messages and emails every week around leave for loss still yeah so yeah i had a um the the latest term pregnancy that i lost i had a a a beautiful friend she ended up having a baby that exact same week and I remember calling and saying I wasn't coming to a hen's party because like you know I said um I feel sick and one of my other friends called me up and she knew exactly what was going on and to this day that friend of mine says you know she knows that that birthday of her child is particularly hard for me and she actually remembers to call all the time it's just it's beautiful but it was only because I could actually talk to her about it because I have these beautiful girlfriends from school who I you know felt comfortable talking to and I think more people need a ah support network like that around them.
Speaker: Yeah, 100%. And I think that starts with education earlier, right? Yep. So know now with me, I talk about our losses and our babies that we didn't get to meet with my children now yeah in the hope that if it does happen to them in the future, we're bringing up another generation now where miscarriage is not a secret. It's not shameful. We just talk about it. yeah It is what happens. And unfortunately, it's so common that it probably will. We have two daughters. It could well happen to that. yeah but we But don't beat yourself up if you're not...
Speaker: really you know if it takes some time to talk about it like we' we're only talking about it to even to mums and dads after you know it had happened to us a number of times yes so it took us a little while to wrap our heads around it that the whole thing yeah it's it's it's um it's hard to do it's not easy I think that's a really valid point as well. That like, if you can't find the words right now, that's okay too, right? You don't have to become an advocate in this space. You don't have to do to fix. Everyone's different. But I do think that, yeah, if we can, as a society, try and remove some of this silent shame stigma, we can create safe spaces where people can share with their girlfriends, with their workplaces. Yeah. And then the healing begins. And if you can't find the words now, then you listen to the podcast or you look at your material something, you see how other people have spoken about it. And it helps.
Speaker: It does. It really does. I've loved this. like Thank you so, so much for both of you. like genuinely, you know, I'll always have a special place in Pink Elephant's heart and history for everything you've done for us. Like the change is profound and it's forever more. So I'm so grateful. And thank you for coming again and reopening and sharing something that is still deeply personal, but we're grateful because others will feel seen from it too.
Speaker: We should be thanking you. Very much so. You did all the work. That's right. And we get to we got to come in and do, yes, and do something that that was worthwhile and we enjoyed. But you've been plugging ah along at it every day and building this up from the ground up. And we're all we're incredibly grateful for the opportunity that you gave us to talk about it and to figure out in our own mind how to how to share it and work through the the grief. We really were very grateful.
Speaker: Thank you. It means a lot. Thank you. End of bed before we all cry. I thought we were also trying to make it a short. Awesome.
