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Episode 40: Shallow Hal featuring Briar Ripley Page and Flann Delaney
43 Plays2 months ago
Chris and Anna welcome fellow couple Briar Ripley Page and Flann Delaney to discuss their pick, the 2001 film “Shallow Hal.” This Romantic Comedy by the Farrelly brothers attempts to show that beauty is more than skin deep, by being not actually romantic, nor very funny, and reveling in only surface-level commentary and thought. So it’s pretty bad, but can we find some good in talking about it? Tune in to find out.
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Guests
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello, hello, hello, and welcome! to your favorite bad movie podcast. The only podcast that's brave enough to ask a question. If this movie is so bad, why do the two of you like it so much? We're your hosts. This week, I feel like it's a very relevant question. But but we're your hosts. My name is Chris Anderson. And with me as always, I have the Laura Keitlinger to my Kyle Gass. It's Anna Anderson, my wife.
00:01:13
Speaker
Hello. How are you doing, sweetie? I'm okay. That's what we like to hear. Okay is okay. That's what we say around the Anderson household. With us, we have, for the first time ever, two very special guests and a indefatigable duo. Their stick-to-it-iveness and bravery saw them through the hours worth of technical difficulties that we just keeps recording.
00:01:43
Speaker
By gum, they put their noses to the grindstone and they stuck with it. It's Briar Ripley Page and Fran Delaney. Hello. Hi, it's actually Fland, but yes. Fland! Ah, fuck! yeah I'm sorry. Fland Delaney. Like the dessert. Yes. Only with an extra N.
00:02:06
Speaker
Perfect. The extra N for extra flan. I just feel like you should, she should point out that that we are also a marital couple. Oh yeah. yeah We are married. we We're married to each other. Yes. Yes.
00:02:20
Speaker
Yes, we're having a double date. Greg is not here this week, so it's the married show.
Why 'Shallow Hal'?
00:02:29
Speaker
ah And you chose this week's movie, Shallow Hal, for some reason. Listeners, if you haven't heard or if you haven't seen the feature length film, Shallow Hal, here's a little brief summary to hold in your mind.
00:03:05
Speaker
survive learning that his girlfriend is fat? That is what the movie's about. Yeah. What if your girlfriend was secretly fat?
00:03:18
Speaker
ah so no because of tony robbins Because you got trapped in an elevator with Tony Robbins and he he made the demons of shallowness flee from your body.
00:03:32
Speaker
Yes, that does happen in a particular scene in this film. Why what why did you guys choose this movie? I'm going to put myself out there immediately and say, I didn't like this. oh Why did you guys pick this movie?
00:03:48
Speaker
I am fascinated by this movie. This movie I saw like uh probably over 10 years ago now like and I've sort of been like you know how sometimes there's like a little subroutine in your head that's just like turning something over and over and over like I feel like that's just been spinning the whole the whole time um and then like And then I i told Briar about this and I was like, Briar, you kind of need to see this film. And then and then we've just been talking about it ever since. I mean, really what happened for me is just that I was made to watch Shallow How. And it was one of those things for me where I was i was immediately like, this is so bad and so unpleasant that I need to expose as many people to it as possible.
00:04:39
Speaker
that I plan, either by tricking them into also watching it somehow or just like laboriously recounting the premise and plot of the film to them at length and they're like, can you believe they did this tone of voice?
Film's Struggle with its Message
00:04:54
Speaker
But here's the thing about this film, right? This film is fascinating, not just because it is fractally bad, although that is very much the case. I'm not going to be out here arguing this is as a secretly good film. This is not a secretly good film.
00:05:08
Speaker
that there's no There's no debate there. What is truly fascinating about this film is that this is an attempt by some people to express what for many of us is a fairly simple thought, which is that sarah there are ways in which a human being can be valuable that aren't how thin or like Hollywood conventionally attractive they are. That is- Wait, wait, wait. You mean there's more to a woman than being in ye cans and long blonde hair? I'm just saying, what if? why What if? What if? It's a boy. This is early brothers. I'm a 30 something man who has never
00:05:56
Speaker
encountered this concept until now, but it's groundbreaking. but see this got tell people It's really fascinating because you get to see people trying to express this this this concept, but they don't have the language visually or otherwise.
00:06:12
Speaker
to express this concept. And so the only way they can do it is with what's available to them. Which is what if you were skinny with big cans and long blonde hair, but like on the inside. In your your soul. that That's what you're full. Yeah. What if your personality had like the ideal waist to hip ratio?
00:06:36
Speaker
ah Your personality was like Barbie. Like, sure, you may not look like Barbie, but you have all of Barbie's charisma and- Sense of humor. Yeah, and and intelligence.
00:06:50
Speaker
and and And, but, you know, this is a film that tries to express the idea that there's such a thing as a good person. But yes you we we have discussed this. We are ah like, we're not sure.
00:07:08
Speaker
that the Fairly Brothers had like met many actually good people, you know, being rich dudes. They are from Rhode Island. Yeah. yeah Oh, well, oh because they shot the shorthand this movie ah always uses for to to like signal that we're supposed to think someone is like a really good person is that they do some kind of i vague or unhelpful volunteer work on behalf of the disabled. Like either the foundation for the blind or they're like working with child burn victims. Excuse me, right. It's not the foundation for the blind, it's the foundation against blindness. Oh no, oh no. They're not for it, they're against it.
00:07:58
Speaker
This movie has a really weird attitude towards disability on a number of levels. It has a weird attitude about pretty much fucking everything. I'm hard-pressed to think of one normal attitude that this movie has.
00:08:11
Speaker
ah this i let's ah Hang on. I feel like we're getting lost in a lot of form thought. let's ah Okay, so when did... You introduced Briar to Shallow Hal. Do you remember the circumstances of your original viewing of Shallow Halflin? You know what? I don't. And I almost feel as if it's one of those like, the thing is, this film very much makes you feel like you've been hit in the head. And I feel that much like being in a hit in the head. I don't actually remember how it happened. I just know that it got it. Yeah. And it also does make you feel ah pain and like you're slightly stupider for the experience. Yes. Anna, had you seen this one before?
00:08:57
Speaker
Uh, no. know didn didn't You never popped in shallow hell on a Friday night? No, I've never never seen a ah any of the Fairly Brothers oeuvre before.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, I was never a big Fairly Brothers fan. I remember a lot of people liking them, ah you know, when I was in high school, you know, I was definitely the target demographic being like a 16 year old boy when there's something about Mary came out, but it just, I don't know, it was a little crass for me. You know, I was a little too prim bra and And, uh,
00:09:36
Speaker
But I definitely would have watched Shallow Hal at the video store because it was a new release and it was a comedy and you just needed something to fill up the time and you wouldn't pay attention. And my thoughts on it were probably mostly, oh, this has bad vibes. and It's not very funny, but I didn't pay enough attention to really understand how sort of ontologically evil the film is.
Release and Direction of 'Shallow Hal'
00:09:59
Speaker
um And I think part of that, well, ah let's let's get into the context portion of the show. Let me let me get to the context research here.
00:10:49
Speaker
So, Shallow Howl came out November 9th, 2001, the second worst thing to happen that fall. And yeah directors Bobby and Peabird are fairly. It had several taglines. The one that I thought to write down was only a man this shallow could fall in love this deep.
00:11:17
Speaker
and I like that. It's not a play on words, right? It's ah it's anyway, shallow hell is the sixth film from the brothers, Bobby and Peter Fairley. The Fairley brothers broke onto the scene with their debut film, Dumb and Dumber in 1994, writing the Jim Carrey comment, you know, right place, right time for those two guys.
00:11:43
Speaker
And then they followed that up with Kingpin in 1996, which they didn't write, which I think is why it sort of stands out in their larger body of work, but it's still one of their more celebrated movies. And then another astronomical hit with there's something about Mary in 1998. So I guess I was 17 probably. ah And that that's sort of trifecta secured their legacy as a defining comedy voice of the 90s.
00:12:12
Speaker
for better or worse. Of course, now one of them has gone on to be the Oscar winning director of Green Book. I didn't realize that. Yeah. Yeah. Shallow Hal comes to you from the director of Oscar winner, Green Book. Oh, they should ah put that on the Shallow Hal criteria. Yeah.
00:12:35
Speaker
Yeah, I would, I would just love to go to like Walmart and see shallow how in the $5 bin with from the director of green book. That's worth a shot. We got the DVDs. Let's just print us some stickers. Uh, now the brothers, they grew up in Rhode Island. Peter would receive an MFA from Columbia university while Bobby attended Rensselaer polytechnic university on a hockey scholarship. The two of them wrote a little bit of,
00:13:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. They're, they're sort of a goofus and gal, you know, uh, the two of them wrote a little bit of television, most notably an episode of Seinfeld and then had a few scripts optioned, but nothing got made until they finally got the opportunity to make dumb and dumber. From there, they're sort of off to the races.
00:13:25
Speaker
Unfortunately, by the aughts, things started looking a little bit worse. Some of the, you know, shine came off the shit. and the Me, myself and Irene was released in 2000. It was a financial success, but it's mostly remembered as a sort of lesser Jim Carrey vehicle, if it's remembered at all. You never really hear anybody talk about me, myself and Irene.
00:13:50
Speaker
it And it also got a little bit of trouble because of its portrayal of dissociative identity. disorder ah then their Their next film, Osmosis Jones, was an animated film about a white blood cell and a medicine fighting germs. I actually thought that was a Fairly lee Brothers thing.
00:14:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's easy to forget ah it just because it's so dumb and bad. But it only made 14 million dollars off of a 70 million dollar budget. woof So they're a little bit in the doghouse, so they needed to sort of get back on track. So they returned to their, ah you know, bread and butter. Let's do another gross out romantic comic.
00:14:40
Speaker
It's the best of both worlds. You get young ladies in there with the romance. You get fellas in there with the gross out gags. Boom, money in the bank. And this one is gonna have a little bit more heart than their previous attempts. That was their plan. They wanted to get a message out with their gross out romantic comedy.
Casting Choices and Regrets
00:15:00
Speaker
ah The Fairly's did not write the original script of Shallow Hal. This was dawn ah done by Sean Moynihan, who is blind.
00:15:11
Speaker
huh I just think that adds an interesting color to the proceedings. Yeah. Lateral ableism. It's a thing.
00:15:24
Speaker
The Fairly Brothers fought to get Jack Black in the lead role. The studio originally wanted Owen Wilson, who I think would have had a different vibe. I think he would have been a more natural fit for this. a But maybe, maybe too handsome. Who could say it would have changed it, I think. Yeah. Or maybe too conventionally handsome. I don't want to slag off Jack Black, although he styled very goofily here. He looks like Wolverine a little bit.
00:15:53
Speaker
I do think it's kind of interesting, right? That this movie is all about appearance and it has Jack Black and Jason Alexander playing like prominent roles as these dudes who can't get laid. And, you know, as someone who is quite short, I noticed this like, they're both like 5'4". Five Five, they're short guys. And the movie never really mentions this or alludes to this in any way. And I'm like, huh, I think that's the one time that like, an aspect of unusual appearance appears in the movie without being remarked on or lampshaded in some way. Yeah, it's definitely not directly remarkable. I think there are there are ways in which it's shot to kind of draw attention to that. We'll get on to some of the Tony Robbins scenes, which
00:16:45
Speaker
oh theyre right yeah they are a whole in otherther world opposite Jason Alexander because Robbins can't act and Jason Alexander notably can. um yeah But it's interesting that even though Tony Robbins can't act, he's still strangely charismatic. Like it doesn't really matter.
00:17:07
Speaker
in my opinion. And he has hands the sides of hands. I realized during this rewatch that Tony Robbins' performance as himself is 100%. The energy he's giving is only human in a Muppet movie.
00:17:27
Speaker
And I think that adds something to the film. I don't know what it adds, but it adds something. There's definitely a lot of people standing there in like stoic perplexed-ness while Jason Alexander kind of flails around, popping mad. He is basically just playing George Costanza in this movie. Oh yeah, he is. Well, I think there's some distinct differences between Mauricio and George Costanza, but we'll get into that.
00:17:54
Speaker
I, well, anyway, anyway, anyway, the Fairly's won out. They were allowed to cast Jack Black, but ironically, Jack Black did have to lose weight for the role. Oh my God. That's kind of dark. That's, yeah.
00:18:09
Speaker
just shows the level of like commitments to their premise that they could bring to this, you know? ah In 2006, he stated, it didn't turn out as I'd hoped. I wasn't proud of it. And I got paid a lot of money. So in retrospect, it feels like a sellout. Black isn't the only one that looks back on the film with regret.
00:18:32
Speaker
ah Gwyneth Paltrow subsequently described the film as being quote, humiliating and quote, a disaster. Jason Alexander also has his regrets. The prosthetic vestigial tale that he wore gave him permanent, prominent stretch marks that never went away. my god Oh no. He was like, scarred by this movie. Yes. Can you imagine?
00:19:03
Speaker
In a 2003 interview with Vanity Fair, Alexander said, it was really traumatic for me and I didn't even get the joke. Why did he have a tail? It's not even funny, it's just disgusting.
00:19:20
Speaker
Which fair enough, fair enough. ah But doubtlessly, the person that had the worst experience with Shallow Hal was Ivy Snitzer. Ivy Snitzer was Paltrow's body double. This is such a bummer that I've made a special sound alert for
00:19:46
Speaker
So while Snitzer had nothing bad to say about the production or her co-stars or the Fairleys, she did run into trouble once filming wrapped. She did promotion, hoping to further her career as a 20 year old comedic actress, but received incredibly harsh feedback for quote, promoting obesity for saying quote, it's not the worst thing in the world to be fat and people accosted her on the street. Someone mailed her diet pills to her home and basically made her quit acting.
00:20:22
Speaker
She ended up developing an eating disorder and then had gastric band surgery, which went wrong. She wound up with a torsion in her stomach, ah which she could not get treated for several months because she was in between insurers at the time. And so had to live on a liquid diet. She described herself as being so skinny that you could see her teeth through her cheeks.
00:20:47
Speaker
yeah ah She ended up getting gastric bypass to correct the torsion and seems to be doing much better now. But still, that's a lot.
Impact and Genre Comparison
00:21:00
Speaker
Shadow Hal almost killed this woman.
00:21:05
Speaker
So that's the end of the bummer alert. I forgot to write something down in my notes. So I'm just going to look it up really quick. Other comedy films of 2001, let's say romantic comedies of 2001, just to put a thing in its place. What do we have? Come on, fat fingers. There we go. All right. We've got bubble boy.
00:21:33
Speaker
Mm hmm. That was a romantic comedy. Yeah, technically. Oh, you've got ah On The Line starring Lance Bass. Lance Bass in On The Line. You guys, I had my roommate at the time was obsessed with Lance Bass. The guy she married ended up was kind of like him. They were a weird couple.
00:21:58
Speaker
ah What else we got? ah God, we got so many that I don't remember. Like someone like you with Ashley Judd, Greg Kinnear and Hugh Jackman. Oh, I remember that. I remember that name and that cast, but I couldn't tell you anything about the plot.
00:22:15
Speaker
Oh, you got the ah Hugh Jackman, Meg Ryan time travel, Kate and Leopold. Oh, yeah. Well, I remember that. man That one's not bad. Let's see. You got ah Serendipity looks like Kate Beckinsale and John Cusack. That's a great one. Sure. Saving Silverman. Jack Black's at it again. But this time he's second banana to Jason Biggs.
00:22:44
Speaker
ah Wedding Planner with Matthew McConaughey and ah Jennifer Lopez. che This was a banner year. Technically, A Knight's Tale. You could call that a romantic comedy. And of course, Wet Hot American Summer. I wouldn't call that a romantic. Well, I mean,
00:23:04
Speaker
Yeah. Great movie. He is romance.
00:23:08
Speaker
yeah know i I do keep seeing people like kind of lamenting. They're like, God, nobody's making, you know, romantic comedies the way that they used to. Like it's all superhero films now. Those were films for adults. And I feel like they've just forgotten how many, how many bad films. Yeah.
00:23:30
Speaker
It was a nice, robust genre, but there was a lot that is fine to be confined to the dustbin of time. Do you know what I mean? We don't need to worry about preserving the wedding planner for the next generation. I honestly, I think ah one one element of nostalgia right that I'm discovering as I get older is is I do look back and sometimes I'm like, oh, I didn't really appreciate, say, how many good romantic comedies there were in like the 90s and 2000s.
00:23:59
Speaker
i You know, I think part of the reason for that is that time has done this work of um curation so that the the ones that I might get around to watching today are actually good, whereas the ones I was being inundated with as a pre-team were largely complete garbage, even like, and perhaps especially the ones that were really popular at the time.
00:24:26
Speaker
like I just remember one summer when I was a teenager and the only thing that we could find that was on in the cinemas was Liar Liar with Jim Carrey. It was a dark time.
00:24:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think a big part of it is actually just that there were a lot more movies in general getting pushed into theaters. You know what I mean? You weren't having 10 different showings ah or 10 different screens playing three hour Marvel movies. And that'd be the only thing in any, you know, cinema. You could have 10 different movies at a movie theater. Now you got like four. And the pandemic changed everything. And I don't know. I don't even really keep up with that. I'm talking out my butt.
00:25:07
Speaker
Who wants to talk about the plot? I sure do.
Hal's Origin Story
00:25:54
Speaker
So we open with one of, what I'm gonna say is the second most unpleasant cold openings I've ever seen. It's really bad and really unnecessary to the story, I think. Yes. For some reason, they felt that they needed to show an origin story for Hal being shallow. How else could we believe that a man be shallow in how he relates to women, that he would judge women on their own? Yeah, like that's never happened before.
00:26:29
Speaker
No, man's natural state is good and evil. comes You know, all of the evil that men do come from somewhere in their past. And this is how's past. A young shallow how goes to his father's death bed. His father is a pastor, but he's whacked out on morphine. And his dying advice to his son is to have sex with as many hot young babes as he can.
00:27:01
Speaker
We then cut to the present day. We get the opening credits. The music in this film, a lot of is done by a band called Ivy, which is a side project of the guy that was in Fountains of Wayne. Adam Schlesinger.
00:27:15
Speaker
Yes. ah But it's weird that all the club scenes have acoustic guitar rock as like what everyone is dancing to. Yeah. It's a very strange club. I found it odd that in all of the club scenes, like the men are all in like office work where like they they just are out of there, you know, white collar nine to five and all of the women are in like, you know, traditional clubbing outfits with heels and glitter.
00:27:43
Speaker
thing is I have only been into a club voluntarily maybe about half a dozen times and all of those times I was just kind of focused on it like so narrowly on my own survival. um So you're saying the clubs in shallow howl is what it was like for you. They seem like normal clubs. Well I'm saying like you could tell me this was a normal club and I'd be like yep yep that's fine.
00:28:14
Speaker
To me, you have to also remember, though, that this is taking place in Montana. So I feel like the fashion standards there might be bizarre. So this is an interesting question. We were having this whole argument about where the fuck is Shallow Howl set the other night. And we actually we ended up settling on, I think, Charlotte, North Carolina. We were. That's where it was filmed in Montana.
00:28:38
Speaker
yeah The thing is, it it's several times, very prominently, and for like several seconds of the time. It shows the Charlotte skyline, right? yeah So we were like, truly, that scene setting, that scene setting to show that it takes place in Charlotte. I mean, the the thing is, we were kind we were trying to reconstruct it, and because Bri was like, I think it takes place in New York City, and I was like, no. I was pretty stoned and it was the beginning of the movie. i I don't know why I said that. I was like, some of these scenes are obviously LA from various things. It turns out it was shot in l LA, Charlotte, North Carolina. um Where's the other place that it was shot that was really random? It was like Massachusetts. Oh yeah, Massachusetts, various locations. Yeah, they're New England guys, so that makes sense. Yeah, there's some yeah there's some mountains that they go in. There's are just a lot of different places and it's very it's very I feel like adds to that. You know, when they say a city will play itself, like New York is playing itself in this movie. L.A. plays itself. In this case, it's Charlotte, North Carolina is playing a city in Montana. And like, you you know, though that's Charlotte, but that's Charlotte playing the role of Buke, Montana or whatever. Is that a city? i'm you
00:29:52
Speaker
Buke? Buke? I think it's Buke? Or is that Colorado? I don't know. There's probably a Buke. You're thinking of Dubuque, Iowa, I think. I don't know. Sun City in Montana. You get the idea. I could believe that the founders would make a film set in a place called Puke, Montana. Yes, that would suit.
00:30:15
Speaker
All right, so we have adult shallow hell and he's dancing with hot babes at a nightclub and he hangs out with his best friend Mauricio. And we find out that they are both very shallow single men and that's sort of their entire thing. And Mauricio is of course played by George Costanza, AKA Jason Alexander.
00:30:37
Speaker
Uh, and yeah, you feel like he was doing a very George thing here. I mean, I feel like they're both sort of losers. And so they had that overlap, but George, I feel like was, first of all, a lot more nebbushy. I think Mauricio was just like a little rat man.
00:30:52
Speaker
if But true enough, he has that like bizarre, like I think it's spray on hair. Yes. He has spray on hair on top of his head through the whole movie. And it's just like kind of becomes it's like slowly over the course of the film. Yeah. Yeah. it's it's it's oh that yeah I don't know, I feel like there's a very substantial overlap between Maurizio and George Costanza, partly because, you know, George Costanza is a ah much more um coherent and fleshed out character, so he kind of like swamps Maurizio, who doesn't really make any sense.
00:31:32
Speaker
I mean, I'm not saying that Mauricio wasn't cast on the back of George Costanza. I'm not saying that they weren't looking for a Costanza type, but I do feel like he was at least trying to not do the exact same thing. Whether or not he was successful, maybe. Now,
00:31:53
Speaker
We find out that both of them are very shallow and that's the whole thing. We learn that, we learn this from both their behavior and from the way the world treats them. Hal heads out to meet up with his neighbor Jill to see if she wants to get a drink after work. And she says, no, you're too shallow, shallow, Hal. Classic thing that has always happened to shallow Hal. He can't win this guy.
00:32:21
Speaker
ah The next day at work, Hal gets passed up for promotion. ah His coworkers, Kyle Gass and Laura Keitlinger, tell him that he's nice, loyal and degenerous, but he's just too shallow. This is how they comfort him.
00:32:36
Speaker
ah pon to know We will never see him be nice lawyer. No, this is just so that, you know, that he's not an entire piece of shit that they don't have time to actually figure out how to make a guy be a nice guy and also treat half the people on earth like garbage. You know, they can't figure out how to solve that riddle. So they just have to someone say, you are a good guy. shalllo how That's important to the story. yeah You are a good guy.
00:33:06
Speaker
ah Now, his day is about to improve because on his way out of the office, he gets stuck in an elevator with none other than famed motivational giant, Tony Robbins.
Tony Robbins and Hypnosis
00:33:18
Speaker
What do you guys think about Tony Robbins?
00:33:21
Speaker
He's huge. I didn't realize he was so huge. But like, he's fine in this whatever his presence is sort of like, I guess, ah working in that. Yeah, one human in a Muppet movie. I think his online really sells them up. in the Yeah, I think it's really baffling that they decided they were like, well, we've got to have um ah Tony Robbins playing himself, but also in this movie, he canonically is um secretly a magical hypnotist. Yeah, I do like that he just he kind of has these incredible powers that he even explicitly says, like, oh, I don't normally use this on people. I'm just using it on you, shallow ral, because we got stuck in this elevator. And that's how I found out you were a good guy with one very specific problem.
00:34:12
Speaker
I had this awful um thought towards the end of the movie, though, that if it had been made, like, I don't know, about 10 years later, Tony Robbins would be Elon Musk. Like, he wouldn't be any more. But there was a period when this kind of like mystical bigwig type role yeah was filled in the popular imagination. body Okay, I have an even more cursed suggestion. oh no like No, no, what is it? Jordan Peterson, I think. Oh, no. Sadly, I think you're right, because that that would fit in more with like the yeah, like the quasi mystical like and this guy can just talk you into ah essentially having a glamour cast upon your site. He's psychotherapist, after all. Obviously, they can all do hypnotism. So I think, yeah.
00:35:10
Speaker
Or, uh, what if he's just trapped in there with Joe Rogan? now he Joe Rogan gives him a magical supplement that allows him to see and review. It would be a supplement.
00:35:23
Speaker
Now, now Tony and Hal, they become fast friends. And Tony hypnotizes Hal so that now instead of seeing women's outer beauty, he will see their inner beauty.
Hal's Changed Perception
00:35:34
Speaker
Boom. That's the premise of the movie. Here we go. We're off to the rest. It's not just women's inner beauty. Right. It's everybody's inner beauty. Children, men, dogs. Yes.
00:35:46
Speaker
And most people in the movie tend to just look normal at this point. From here on out, we will be any scene where Hal is there, we will be seeing through Hal's eyes, which I think is a big part of the problem of the movie. I think or rather, I think this movie would have been very different if you had had the character of Rosemary played by a fat actress in the entire time.
00:36:11
Speaker
Yeah, I think, yeah, the thing is like, I think it would have been, ah I mean, for one thing that would have probably forced them to to treat her like an actual human fat person with like the mass of a fat person instead of like a cartoon who can weigh like 300 pounds or 2,000 pounds, whatever is needed for the joke. Yeah, they're very unclear about what her, like, actual dimensions or anything else are supposed to to be. And that fluctuates at different points. Well, it's because we're all in Hal's gauzo vision, right? Like, it all just works, no matter what it just works, because it all works for Hal. He doesn't notice. Yeah. We're we are hypnotized, too.
00:36:57
Speaker
We see the world through Hal's point of view. Now, Hal is soon being nice. He's being nice to even ugly women, something that would have been inconceivable to him before, even though he's a great guy. And ah he now thinks that they're attractive. And first thing he does is he's nice to one woman and gets in a cab with her.
00:37:22
Speaker
And he gets her digits and he's ready to go out there and he's ready to meet more babes. Hey, because he thinks that Tony Robbins hypnotized him to be irresistible to women as opposed to having, you know, the keen eyes into the human soul, the moment that you see someone.
00:37:41
Speaker
I want to note that the reason why this woman appears beautiful to Hal is because she is caring for her sick grandmother, which is like, you know, one of the the things that this film tries to gesture at in a sort of like, this is what a good person is, like, they they make various different attempts. I think that's, to be honest, one of the more successful ones, but it's still a little kind of they at least get that, yeah, like taking care of a sick person is good. I think the real problem with this movie is not so much that it's saying something that you can disagree with in like it isolated in, you know, isolated thoughts. Do you know what I mean? Like it's taking one step forward, but it's taking that one step forward from four steps back.
00:38:35
Speaker
You know what I mean? like it's just like It's a movie that's brave enough to ask the question, what if fat people were humans? What the fuck are you talking about? It was wrong, actually, to make fun of fat people.
00:38:50
Speaker
Yeah. What if you didn't just see Lim as like disgusting? Yeah. The movie does it anyway though. Like it does that. It just then turns around and is like, Oh, you should feel terrible for like laughing at our sophomoric fat jokes. I mean, so let's be clear. It asks some other questions as well, such as, um, what if injured children were, um, adorable and cute instead of loath yeah i Yeah. What if you saw a burned child that didn't instantly wince in horror? and Could you imagine being that good? Maybe you could be maybe. And it's, ah, ah, I lost my train of thought. Anyway, that's, that's why the movie is so loathsome is that it it seems to be rewarding itself for doing so little, uh, you know,
00:39:44
Speaker
Now, ah but bu ah bu but but so that night, Hal hits the club with Mauricio. They run into their buddy Walt, who seems to be in this film only to make a sight gag of his severe spina bifida, but also act like it's not making a sight gag of his severe spina bifida. So that's genuinely unpleasant.
00:40:09
Speaker
Well, it's interesting too, because Walt is the one person that Hal's not shallow about. Like Mauricio doesn't like him. Well, he's it's kind of like he's he's the one character where where you do actually see like a person with a kind of a real meaningful like physical difference on screen and they are being treated by characters who don't have hell's hypnosis as like attractive and desirable and on one hand it is a joke but on the other hand it's like oh they kind of accidentally made a ah better
00:40:55
Speaker
statement on how relative these things are, albeit very crassly in like the two scenes featuring this character. they I think some of this down to the fact that the actor is genuinely very charismatic ah as amazing. I'm actually surprised that he wasn't in more things after this, like, you know, his creditors as an actor in this, I think he was in like, um some episodes of Carnivale, or however you pronounce that one, but not very much else, really. um And that yeah, I find that somewhat surprising, because, ah like, he has amazing on screen presence. And
00:41:35
Speaker
ah really sells this, you know, character who is not written, um you know, like with any kind of, uh, he does manage to make the whole like, Oh, I can see your panties thing about as charming as yeah not. Yeah, very yeah but but he he does his, his, his level best. And it's, you know, it's amazing what he's doing with the material that he has.
00:42:02
Speaker
I feel like it's more sort of nothing wrong with him or even what is ah the scenes written around him, but the context of the film as a whole. Like you put this guy in this movie, I know what you're doing. I know what a Fairly Brothers movie is. I know that you put this character in there as an act of derision.
00:42:25
Speaker
You know what I mean? even if yeah like Just to put it in this in the context of the film as a whole, I think it's... Yeah, ah I didn't care for it. Now, Hal ends up dancing with ah three hot babes who are actually ugly.
00:42:45
Speaker
And that's what it is. That's what I wanted to say before is that it seems to be trying to say like we should judge people by their inner beauty, but also there's an objective standard of what is physically. Yeah. And how you know, how you know these three women are ugly, right? Is that, oh, one is fat.
00:43:02
Speaker
One is Paul and has a cartoonish pasted on unibrow. And one just kind of looks like Italian or Jewish. Like she has a a somewhat beaky nose and like curly hair that they've styled unflatteringly so it fringes. And that's why these three women are ugly, respectively.
00:43:28
Speaker
Yeah. And when Mauricio sees Hal dancing with these three ugly women, he's very upset. He finds this very disturbing. Hal doesn't know the exact nature of the hypnosis he's under. And Mauricio seems genuinely disturbed that Hal is having a nice time dancing with these three women.
00:43:48
Speaker
ah The next day, Hal is driving through downtown wherever they are, and he sees Rosemary walking down the street, and she looks like a young Gwyneth Paltrow. What do you guys think of Gwyneth Paltrow? I have never been the biggest fan. I don't know. i think She wasn't sliding doors, I think is my yeah favorite Gwyneth Paltrow movie. And that was, that was, yeah, no, that would have been a few years earlier, right? Uh, somewhere around in this era. Yeah.
00:44:26
Speaker
I want to say that was more like mid aughts and this is 2001. I think my favourite Gwyneth Paltrow movie is um The Talented Mr Ripley. I think it's very good in that. I think The Talented Mr Ripley is an interesting film because a lot of the actors in that are giving like the like the the best performance of their lives, I put that down to like amazing casting. I think a lot of them are very much playing some version of themselves or some kind of like thing there. And I think Gwyneth Paltrow in playing this sort of, yeah, I don't know how to describe the character, but but but she does like she she does that pretty well, I think.
00:45:08
Speaker
and and fits very well in that film, but I don't know that I i think she has very much rage. Yeah, and this is a rude thing to say about someone, and it's only because of the context of the movie, but it's weird that they didn't cast an actress with bigger tits.
00:45:29
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, not you know ro her to really be skinny. They really want to make sure. yeah Yeah. They wanted her to be skinny. And then I don't know in, in this, she's introduced wearing this pink blouse that does not fit her. And I don't, I just, it, it really threw me through a loop because I don't understand it. it skinny women, very easy to fit. and ah But she's wearing this blouse that it it gaps between the ah the buttons. And it's so I think maybe it's too small, but it just distracted me through the whole scene.
00:46:10
Speaker
Well, I have a soft spot for old Wyeth Paltrow, I'll admit, the since Royal Tenenbaum days, I'm going to say. ah you know And I think she's an actress who
00:46:25
Speaker
It rises to the level of her material, you know? um And then she became some sort of weird pseudo science influencer that I didn't understand. ah But for a while, I thought she was certainly a very pretty lady who acted very well in a couple of very nice films. No beef with Gwyneth Paltrow. Now, he follows Gwyneth Paltrow into an underwear store and with his newfound confidence starts awkwardly hitting on her while making fun of the giant pair of underwear that she is holding up. This is very awkward and unpleasant to watch. they But he he steers out of the skid and they end up going to lunch together.
00:47:13
Speaker
She orders a big lunch because obviously she's a great big fat person. Yeah. And ah then, ah but he was like, Oh, I don't like a gal with an appetite. That classic bit. Oh, it's classic men love it when thin. Yeah. one us eat lot gal eats Yeah. Oh, they love that.
00:47:31
Speaker
The thing that I find interesting about the um ah the restaurants, that restaurant scene, is that, as I said to Brian, like they the the filmmakers don't really seem to have like ever met a fat woman, but they also don't seem to have talked to a thin woman either, because they seem to think that like you know this kind of like being apologetic about what she's eating yeah they seem to think that no like thin woman would would ever like order a lot of food and then be embarrassed about right food or would like feel insecure about what she was eating in public i mean you know that it's kind of other piece with the fact that you know they
00:48:13
Speaker
again, we see her in supposedly a lingerie store, it does not function in the way that any underwear shop ever has. um It doesn't look like I mean, it it looks like somebody might imagine an underwear shop that had never been inside one and the people in that act the way that you might imagine. I don't know. There's this very I was saying to Briar like,
00:48:39
Speaker
I, if you had told me that this film was, uh, was kind of made by, um, some, uh, kind of, you know, uh, cinematographically precocious, uh, 16 year olds, single sex boys' school and had never really met a woman other than their mum and the school nurse, I would believe there's this real sense of just kind of like,
00:49:07
Speaker
You know, women, what are they what do they? What do they talk like? What do they do all day? What's life inside a ah woman's store that sells things for women? And there's no real sense that this is something that could be ascertained by any means. um yeah You couldn't walk into an underwear store just to see what they look like. No. No, no, no, no. This is this is fine.
00:49:37
Speaker
That's one of those high end ones that has lots of space and everything is on little circular tables. ah Now, uh, let's see. Awkward lunch. She orders the big lunch.
Disjointed Conversations
00:49:48
Speaker
They have a sort of disjointed conversation about her weight because obviously they both see her very differently. And then her chair breaks for the first of many times in this movie.
00:50:01
Speaker
From the fan people I know, having a chair break on you is a very ah terrible experience. It's, you know, very embarrassing. It's very frustrating. and You feel like a big spectacle. From what I hear, it's awful. I didn't care for this scene either.
00:50:16
Speaker
Yeah, and the thing is that the way that he acts when the chair breaks is a way that like, it would actually be like, you know, reasonable to act um if a chair broke, like, under any circumstances. is where He's like, you know, oh, my goodness. He's just like, oh, this chair is a piece of shit. Your chairs should be able to support your customers. And yeah and he's right. Absolutely.
00:50:42
Speaker
Yeah. Like once again, and I feel like if they had a fat actress in the role of Rosemary and they had him saying, your chair's a piece of shit. Like that would have been like, oh, this guy's a good guy. I actually like this guy. But because we, you know, for said thinking, oh, he's hypnotized. And yeah, it's a gets movie gets me all twisted and nice.
00:51:06
Speaker
Now, other than this incident and her being insulted as they walk out the door, their date goes well. We find out that Rosemary's dad is Hal's boss's boss. And despite Rosemary's skepticism that anyone as handsome as Jack Black is in this movie, which is not particularly, would be into her, ah they make tentative plans to hang out again.
00:51:36
Speaker
On their next date, Hal introduces Mauricio to Rosemary for some fucking reason, and this only heightens Mauricio's suspicion. I would keep my gross friend Mauricio away from any woman I ever met.
00:51:52
Speaker
but light This movie is full of those really contrived conversations that come when like a movie is predicated on a misunderstanding. No one can say anything that clearly indicates to um how that Rosemary is fat.
00:52:12
Speaker
and how also can't say anything to anyone else that clearly indicates he sees her as Gwyneth Paltrow. So he just has like this interaction with Mauricio that's very like, um you know, oh, he's like stunned into silence by your beauty. It's really stupid. This keeps happening.
00:52:34
Speaker
Now, this meeting only heightens Mauricio's suspicion that something is weird about Hal. Rosemary takes Hal to a children's burn ward at the hospital, where instead of seeing a horribly scarred young children covered in oozing open wounds, he sees beautiful children.
00:52:59
Speaker
And Hal and Rosemary tell the children that they need to put on lipstick and start kissing them over and over. I thought this was also very strange. I was like, as soon as they said, like, oh, we're going to play the kissing game, I was like, that's a red flag. Yeah, inappropriate. The main way frontier was a red flag. Then they're like, the game is that, you know, you have to kiss over and over until the lipstick rubs off. And I... don't like that. It's just very strange because also the thing is like, volunteer who comes to the hospital to hang out with the sick children who like, you know, I mean, are at high risk of infection, but but that's not but yeah, the kissing game with these children who have open wounds. It's just not a volunteer position that exists. Like,
00:53:51
Speaker
Well, I also say that they showed the little burned up girl later on and they showed what she really looked like. And this was, they were just like old burn scars. It wasn't like, I think this is just a word where they hold ugly children. This is great home for the ugly. We said this when we were watching it, like that this is like,
00:54:12
Speaker
There's no indication that they're undergoing treatment of any kind that they have dressings on. Well, you know, you got to get those egos off the streets. No, they don't want to have the public wincing at them and chasing them with pitchforks. They live there. They have volunteers come and play with them. It's kind of yeah. Yeah, yeah they just we let them come in, they do whatever they want, you know, kissing game, you name it. So the two of them walk home from the burn ward.
00:54:41
Speaker
Hal keeps telling Rose Marie that she's not fat. She's beautiful. And the cognitive dissonance causes Rose Marie to sort of call the whole thing off. The next day she comes by his apartment and apologizes though. So it's fine. It's actually, it was her fault. It was her fault. Uh, now, uh, the two of them hit the town for another date and we get a montage of fat jokes. Yeah.
00:55:08
Speaker
but with Gwyneth Paltrow in the role of the fat person. So you get to have your cake and eat it too, such as it is. She takes Hal to meet her parents and over dinner, Hal impressed dad with his great business ideas. Mr. Shanahan, AKA dad, is also impressed that Hal is willing to fuck his hog of a daughter in order to get ahead. And Hal says, Hey, Mr. Shanahan, that's a messed up thing to say.
00:55:39
Speaker
He's right. He is right. Like with the chair thing, it's like actually what he says, which includes like, ah you know I'm not surprised your daughter has low self-esteem when you take every opportunity to cut down her appearance. It's like, yeah he the like this shouldn't be like an ironic moment yeah because that's that would make sense to say,
00:56:07
Speaker
Regardless, I don't know. I mean. And if we're supposed to be like taking these scenes where Hal stands up for Rosemary, you know, at the restaurant or with her dad as like ennobling scenes, as scenes that we as audience members ought to try to emulate in our everyday lives, they're not communicating that at all.
00:56:25
Speaker
Right. It's not shot in a way that makes Al has to be like bamboozled into this. He can't just yeah intried it's just, at least until the end of the movie, he can't just intrinsically see a fat person as and not disgusting and contemptible, I guess. I mean, you know you've been talking about about what the film would have been like if Rosemary had just been like played by invisibly like a fat actress. I think we see like a tiny ghost of of of like that, some of what that other film might have looked like and the themes that it might have have explored in a different way. um In the earlier scene where where where Hal is talking to his attractive neighbor where he's trying to chat her up because he gives this whole speech
00:57:14
Speaker
where he's basically like, nobody's really attracted to each other. uhuh Like, people only get together um out because like, they, ah they want to be with a like, you know, somebody who has, ah I guess, you know, has a certain value, and then they kind of learn to be attracted to each other in the thing. And I think like,
00:57:36
Speaker
It's unclear. I think that the film is intending us to see this as like him just like pulling out like this fake line because he's he's trying to persuade her that she could be with him um or even though um she's quote unquote out of his league, which is something that we get discussed a lot. But I think that there's a
00:57:58
Speaker
Again, with the film kind of accidentally stumbling into something that could have been ah like ah a better film somewhere deep in there. um Like I think if you took that that speech seriously, it's sort of about um how <unk> not really having any connection to his ah you know his own desires or you know his own like physical connection to another person.
00:58:25
Speaker
um and you know basically uh his shallowness isn't just ah oh you know like uh she's hot and she has great tits or whatever but it's it is like the the sense of like he's pursuing women as yeah status symbols rather than because he's just attracted to these conventionally hopeless right right he's attracted to something else and doesn't know it right and and i think but To be honest, in order to explore explore that, it would have to be such a different film. Like any anything that you could find in this film, you would have to strip it down to the studs in order to make it usable. Absolutely. like Now, ah ah later on, Hal and Rosemary have sex.
00:59:15
Speaker
Paltrow brings a little bit of a vulnerability to her performance of that scene. I think that was, I don't know, as good as could be expected. And then they do the nasty. ah The next day, Hal presents his ideas to the board of directors at the company, and they love his ideas to make things better for the company and the customers. Whoa. another Who would have, yeah.
00:59:38
Speaker
It's another instance instance of of at this kind of sense that the film was maybe made by children, because it is the company and the product, the customers. There's no there's no sense of what what the company does, how a company might work. No, it's just it runs on ideas. A new product, but it's not clear what the product is or how he's going to change it. it's It's a new organizational schema.
01:00:06
Speaker
yeah Now, ah everything is coming up, Hal. He gets a promotion. ah His coworkers accuses him of sleeping his way to the top, but he shakes that off. Then there's a long sequence of Hal and Rosemary going on a double date with Walt and a nurse who is actually ugly on the inside.
Undoing of Hypnosis
01:00:26
Speaker
One of the only characters that we meet that's ugly on the inside. yeah ah They wind up back at the club.
01:00:32
Speaker
And then they run into Rosemary's ex from the Police Corps, Ralph and Ralph's friend Lee Boy. yes It's the Peace Corps. Hal thinks that Ralph is handsome, but he's actually ugly and his friend Lee Boy is fat. Meanwhile,
01:00:52
Speaker
um mauriceio has i'm sorry I just want to point out that, uh, Lee boy is actually, um, so when we meet the quote unquote real Lee boy, he is played by someone who is in fact called Lee boy. And therefore I think we this is meant to show us that the real Lee boy is a good dude too.
01:01:15
Speaker
as he doesn't look like this fat, ugly freak on the outside. His moral goodness is expressed through him being portrayed by this thinner actor in those scenes. Yes, that's that's how you, the audience that is so judgmental, can finally see his inner beauty. Yeah. Now, ah meanwhile, Mauricio has found Tony Robbins, and he convinces Tony to give him the key phrase to undo the hypnosis. That key phrase is, shallow Hal needs a gal.
01:01:45
Speaker
That night, at dinner, Rosemary says she's been recalled to duty at the Peace Corps. ah She also breaks a banquette. When Hal goes to make a stink to the hostess, ah he gets a phone call from Mauricio who says the key phrase. We know it worked too because the hostess is now revealed to be a trans woman.
01:02:08
Speaker
So I know we have several people of trans experience on the panel. Although none of us are trans women, I think we all agree that this joke is in poor taste and ah pretty offensive, but sadly, like by far not the the worst transphobic joke that was made in 90s and 2000s comedy. i I think the thing is, I think it's ah It thinks that it's trying to be right like nice that's yeah umvis Like this whole movie it thinks it's trying to be nice and that's the worst part about it Because you see like she passes in her soul Right. Yes, exactly. Don't you see we're all sis on the inside?
01:02:53
Speaker
Yeah real yeah, okay, I'm glad that I was correcting my assumption that that sucked I mean, it did happen in Shallow Hal. Now, Mauricio rushes to the restaurant and tells Hal not to look at Rosemary because to look upon her hideous visage and to everything. So he spends the next chunk of the movie avoiding his girlfriend and his boss. His neighbor Jill invites him out to dinner. And now that she's seen him being nice to a fat woman and by an odd coincidence,
01:03:27
Speaker
Rosemary and the Shanahans are dining at that same restaurant that night. Rosemary sees Jill holding Hal's hand and she's like, I love how you were nice to a fat person. You must say how you have the soul of a saint. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, she doesn't see how rebuff her advances.
01:03:50
Speaker
To add insult to injury, he ignores her on the way to the telephone because he doesn't recognize her because she looks so different. Well, he doesn't ignore her completely. He says, hello, yeah which is, it's, it's, it's very funny how he does it actually. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good little gag for what must've been an incredibly utter pleasant experience for a resume. Uh, he then calls her cell phone from the pay phone.
01:04:19
Speaker
And the whole experience is so difficult to explain, but it's also very hurtful for Rosemary. He does, uh, say immediately when he calls her, uh, and she picks up the phone. Hello. He says, Hey, hey now what you love, Barney?
01:04:37
Speaker
Like, of course she feels so horribly confused. Now, uh, five days later, we get a caption that says five days later and things still aren't working out. Hal hears Rosemary is leaving to do more Peace Corps stuff, and he's quite despondent. He tries to track her down at the hospital, but only finds Walt and a burned up child, and they both give him a lot to think about. As he walks home, Mauricio rolls up in his Volkswagen Cabriolet.
01:05:11
Speaker
Hal confesses to loving Rosemary and Mauricio confesses to having a vestigial tail growing out of his tailbone. He then ah pulls down his pants to show Hal the tail. yeah yeah for that three like Yeah, just right there in the middle of the room.
01:05:26
Speaker
ah I the tale reveal is so interesting because it's just another like this film feels like it's kind of like pricing you gently and then like maybe less gently away from reality and you're just kind of like leaving everything behind like the It doesn't make any sense. The first the first time I saw this, I thought the reveal with Mauricio, because this would actually make some sense, was he was going to be like, oh, you're right. Shallow how I've been avoiding real relationships with women. And the reason is I'm secretly gay and I've just been able to and unable to accept my sexuality this whole time, because that would, as I said, make some sense. But instead, it's the tale is the metaphor for. A vestigial tail which wags and then Shallow Hal suggests to him that this shouldn't be a barrier to his ah relationships with women because he can get with a woman who likes small dogs. Yes. Yeah. And I think also we only really see this tail in like one insert in a close-up. Yeah. And that really could have been anybody's
01:06:39
Speaker
backside. They didn't have to do this before Jason Alexander. would sour him good Jason Alexander has permanent stretch marks from this effect. It's, it's, it's just, yeah. Yeah. And it's also, uh, just like the cherry on the top, just one final indignity towards me as an audience member. They have to be like, okay, yeah, now show me this. Thanks.
01:07:03
Speaker
Uh, now, uh, the two of them head down to the Peace Corps office, hoping to find Rosemary, but only finding Lee boy and Ralph, uh, hell assumed that Rosemary had gotten back together with Ralph, but she didn't because ironically he's very ugly. Uh, she says it's because he doesn't have a sense of humor, but let's be honest. Uh, Ralph does know that there's a going away party for Rosemary back at her place. So all four boys pile away into the Cabriolet,
01:07:32
Speaker
and they go crash the party. After initially confusing the maid for Rosemary and what I thought was one of the funnier gags of the movie, I'll give it that one. Hal quickly figures out who he should actually go confess his love to. Rosemary tells him that she's leaving tomorrow. Oh, and he sees her as fat for the first time. Yeah. And he's like, I knew it was you. yeah Oh my God, it's you. You're so beautiful.
01:07:57
Speaker
um which would be sweeter if he hadn't previously uh failed to recognize her in one instance and conf confused the maid for her in a second instance yeah it does sort of if undercut gwyneth paltrow in um a I mean, fat suits never look good. It's a very bad fat suit. Supposedly she went out in the fat suit to like, you know, live life as a fat person and people kept giving her funny looks. And it's been pointed out numerous occasions that they were almost certainly looking at her because the fat suit doesn't look like a human being shape.
01:08:36
Speaker
and Right. They were clearly thinking this woman is wearing like a cheap sumo wrestler costume to do a social experiment. Yeah, which would make you look at someone funny and treat them oddly, I think.
01:08:48
Speaker
And I think also I read that story as well and that was during just a makeup test and she just went down to the lobby of her hotel. hotel So that wasn't even the final polished version that you see in the film. That was in like the beta of this fancy. It would be like if I shoved a pillow under my shirt and I was like, why is everyone looking at me funny? I feel like this is so much about society. Yeah. Now, ah after Uh, yeah. And, uh, Rosemary tells him that she's leaving tomorrow to go to Kiribasa, but Hal announces that he just joined the peace court too, and he's going with her.
Ending on a Hopeful Note
01:09:31
Speaker
They drive off into the sunset and Mauricio meets a pretty woman who owns a small dog and the movie ends roll credits. Yeah. So.
01:09:44
Speaker
Final thoughts, five star rating for Shallow How?
01:09:51
Speaker
i Who wants to go first? so i I mean, obviously the like if we it's a low rating. It's a very bad. It's a very bad. Yeah.
01:10:05
Speaker
It's a, it's a film that, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say, you know, it's a film that really court asks us to question whether we can assign things numerical ratings. And I think that that is the case for Shallow Hal as well. You know, it's, ah it's ah got it, you're saying that we need to see past the five star to the beautiful two inside, or pass the two to the beautiful five. I mean,
01:10:32
Speaker
One thing that this film has given me is um an ability to talk about, like, ah so one of the ways in which, you know, Brian and I actually, you know, talk about this film, like, quite frequently, like, it's one of those things where, you know, you just kind of kept come back to talking about it. um ah like we both read a bunch of the works of a 19th century French novelist Victor Hugo. um And Victor Hugo actually has a little bit of the shower how phenomenon going on in this room. What he has specifically is he has this ah specific 19th century male writer hang up where he um
01:11:14
Speaker
uh is very sex positive for his era like he he is very pro-sex he's very pro like women getting to have and enjoy sex but he still has a little bit of uh like 19th century catholic man prudishness and the way he's chosen to thread the needle of these two things is insisting that there are women who are so like innocent and pure in their souls that they kind of remain like Soul virgins. Right. No matter how many sex they have. And also that there are some women who, despite never having had sex, are nonetheless not. Right, that their souls are besmirched. Their souls have been fucking all over the place. Alright, but now I feel like we're getting lost in the saucer. Final thoughts, five star ratings of shallow hell. Why don't you kick us off, my dove?
01:12:12
Speaker
Well, I gave this one star ah and related this to our previous fat suit romantic comedy Just Friends. ah This one makes Just Friends look like the Philadelphia story. Fair enough.
01:12:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's one star. It's ah and and the and the one star is just kind of like, I would feel reluctant to like posit that this is the worst movie. You know, I don't I doubt it's the worst movie, but it's very sad bad I like I'm tempted to give it like half a star.
01:12:48
Speaker
that I watched the full thing of the credits for the first time all the way through. And they are basically just a load of snaps of like, the people who worked on the film, like just just photographs of them. And it seems like it's really trying to drive home that there were real human beings who made this film and who like put their labor into it. And so I feel bad giving it like zero stars because there's obviously a lot of people who did things, but you can give it half a star.
01:13:15
Speaker
You're allowed to give it half. Yeah, it is completely reasonable. I went with one and a half. OK, I rarely think that film is ontologically evil, but I think that this one is for sure. ah But I think it's evil in a mildly thought provoking way. It is sort of a puzzle, of maybe a bit of a lament configuration to get the DVD out of the case. But mostly I think the world would be a better place if every copy of shallow hell was destroyed.
01:13:42
Speaker
Yeah. With that, who wants to move on to the final part of the show? We've got a quick segment and it's The Review Review.
01:14:31
Speaker
Review, review.
01:14:36
Speaker
All right, so I went to IMDB to track down a couple of reviews. It has a 6.0 out of 10 on IMDB. Wow. Wow. Higher than I expected. Yeah. That is mind boggling. It's got a 49% on Rotten Tomatoes.
01:14:58
Speaker
Mind-blowing. Mind-blowing. But we've got three 10 out of 10 reviews. Okay. Here we go. The first one from Play ISDF, September 21st, 2005. 10 out of 10. Great movie. I think that this movie was a great one to hire out and watch. Hire out makes me think they're from somewhere that isn't America.
01:15:24
Speaker
I've watched this a few times and it still didn't get old. It's a great movie and you just don't see lots of movies like this. It's true, you don't. It's packed full of all sorts of things that make this a good movie. Here's a few of the things that it has. Comedy, warmth,
01:15:45
Speaker
good storyline. It's rewatchable, got a moral, and it's based around what life is really like in the whole relationship thing. Well, for some people, life is really like this. I'm giving it a 10 out of 10. Life is like, but then I guess he's already told me why. i Well, I think we, yeah, it all started when he was in an elevator with Tony Robbins.
01:16:11
Speaker
I'm giving it a 10 out of 10, and I recommend it for anybody that is around 13 or 15 years old, people and above. If want a good movie to watch, take a look at this. P.S. For those who leave bad reviews, I have a message. If you didn't like it, stop wasting time and don't review it. Nobody wants to see a bad review because you can't choose a movie to watch that you would like to see because you have no brain.
01:16:42
Speaker
Look, some of us have podcasts. Yeah. I just feel like this person hasn't quite understood the point of review. Well, but that also
Audience Reviews
01:16:51
Speaker
is a good point. You know, if, if you don't think you're going to like shallow hell, you probably shouldn't watch it. And even if you do think you'll like it, you probably shouldn't watch it. Yeah. Uh, up next, 10 out of 10 shallow hell is a wonderful, meaningful comedy. I really enjoyed slash still enjoy watching shallow hell.
01:17:12
Speaker
My father and I saw it together when it came out. He has since passed RIP dad 2008. So I watch this movie and get two great experiences out of it. Number one, laughing until you have a stomachache. Tears are rolling down my cheeks and my face face hurts. Number two, reminds me of my dad and how much he loved the movie.
01:17:37
Speaker
At dinner, my dad would always throw one-liners from the movie at you, and your food would go flying out of your mouth.
01:17:47
Speaker
Gwyneth Paltrow plays a great role as a large woman in the movie. Jack Black is hilarious. He has a really big heart in the role he plays. I love Shallow Hal, and I recommend anyone to watch Shallow Hal if you're having a good or bad day.
01:18:06
Speaker
Laughter's the best medicine, and sitting on the couch watching Shallow Hal will bring you much laughter. Enjoy watching Shallow Hal, and be ready for the belly aches, tears rolling down your cheeks, and face laughter pain. I love this meaningful comedy, Ten Stars. Face laughter pain. that That started to sound towards the end like it was written by an alien pretending to be a human.
01:18:34
Speaker
I would say it was AI, but it's from 2016. All right. Last one. Last one. 10 out of 10. One of my faves. What more could you want? Great cast, funny lines, and a movie with some real depth.
01:18:52
Speaker
It's one of those chick flicks that is bearable for even guys because of its humor and the fact that it doesn't get too cheesy. And when it does, they don't make the scenes last forever with unbearable lines and over the top romance. It's not too much of that gross kissing you guys. That's one thing that I like about it, even though it is a bit of a chick flick. The cast is great.
01:19:19
Speaker
This is definitely my favorite role for Jack Black and Gwyneth Paltrow. All the supporting actors do their part and no one is hard to handle. The movie has a good lesson to it. Unlike other chick flicks, you come out feeling good that you just saw that film. This is just an overall great film. You watch out for how you feel good. How? What a world.
01:19:46
Speaker
Yeah, unlike other chick flicks, this one makes you feel good. I'm not sure I would describe this as a chick flick. It seems solidly aimed at men to me, like like right but straight guys. But Brian has straight teenage boys. It has a woman in it. um yeah Yeah. Oh, right. It's it's got a woman in it. And that. Yeah, there's kissing in it.
01:20:07
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, why would a man want to look at women? Nobody's about kissing a gun in this film at all. ah ah God, you're telling me. Well, you guys want to get on to the game? Yes. All right. Anna's running the game this week. It's time for a little trends in film.
01:21:08
Speaker
Alright, this is a game about brothers who are filmmakers. Um, and I'll give you the name, a description of like, you know, where they're from and the kind of work that they did. And then three movies, one of which is not directed by these two. Um, yeah and I'll just do like Brown Robin, uh, start with Chris. Uh, you have the, like the, I think the most most famous set of brothers I put on this list.
01:21:42
Speaker
Albert and David Maisles. okay Yeah. American documentary filmmakers known for their work in the direct cinema style. Um, the three movies I have Kid Sentiment, 1968, Salesman, 1969, Grey Gardens, 1976, which was not directed by the Maisles brothers. Kid Sentiment. Very good.
01:22:13
Speaker
Yes, I'm on the board. I, i yeah full disclosure, knew Albert Maisel's daughter. Oh, really? Stayed at their vacation house once. Yes, beautiful place. Oh. Very nice people. Nice. Okay, Flan. Our next set are Damiano and Fabio Di Nocenzo, who are a set of Italian twins in their mid-30s, directors and screenwriters.
01:22:39
Speaker
um Which did they not direct? Bad Tales 2020, America Latina 2021, or Fireworks 2023? Okay, I mean, i am like I have no idea, so I'm trying to to take an a guess here.
01:23:02
Speaker
um
01:23:05
Speaker
Let's say Fireworks. im um umm Correct. overthinking this. Yeah, correct. Nice. All right, Briar. ah We have Mark and John Polonia, who were another set of twins, these ones American, they worked in low to no budget shot on video horror. um Our possibilities, we have Splatter Farm, 1986, Woodchipper Massacre, 1988,
01:23:39
Speaker
and the house that screamed 2000.
01:23:47
Speaker
I I don't know. um I would chipper massacre. Yeah, correct. Yes. Amazing. Yeah. All right. I'll tie it up. Yeah. Like I had to include that title. It's such a good title. um OK, Chris, we have the one brothers lining.
01:24:08
Speaker
Guo-chan, Chao-chan, and D-Huan, who were ah pioneers of the Chinese animation industry. Basically, they seem to be kind of like the Walt Disney of ah China. okay yeah And these are all, even the one that they didn't direct, is also a Chinese animated film. um Princess Iron Fan, 1941, The Proud General, 1956,
01:24:38
Speaker
Havoc in Heaven, 1961.
01:24:43
Speaker
Uh, I'm going to say The Crown General. Correct. Oh, wow. Everybody's doing so great. Okay. Flan. Uh, next up we have some French filmmaker brothers, Arnaud and Jean-Marie Laurier. And the movies.
01:25:03
Speaker
To Paint or Make Love, 2005. The Names of Love, 2001. And Love is the Perfect Crime, 2013.
01:25:21
Speaker
I'm gonna guess To Paint with Love. Nah, no. The Names of Love.
01:25:31
Speaker
Briar. We have the Talon brothers, Yagmor and Derul. these They're Turkish. um So we have three Turkish movies here. Vizontale, 2001. Okul, which means school, 2004. And Vavian, 2009.
01:25:58
Speaker
um
01:26:01
Speaker
Uh, Vavian? No.
01:26:07
Speaker
Vison Tele, which is a comedy about, like, the first television in a rural village, so sounded cute to me. Okay, um, Chris. i Peter and Michael Spierig, who are German-Australian producers, directors, and screenwriters.
01:26:30
Speaker
Okay. Predestination 2014 Jigsaw 2017 and Relic 2020.
01:26:42
Speaker
Jigsaw. um No, they did direct Jigsaw. They did not direct Relic. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, Relic was somebody. Is that Guillermo del Toro?
01:26:57
Speaker
No, he didn't mimic anyway. Anyway, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. Flan. Uh, last one for you. The Ramsey brothers. Uh, this is a pseudonym for a family of Bollywood horror filmmakers. Uh, their original surname was, um, Ramsey Connie.
01:27:17
Speaker
ah But there's like there's like seven of them and they do like some of them are dead Directed some of them edit it and it's like I don't know. It's like a whole thing in this family ah But here's three three movies I'm gonna guess Doc Bangla Janoon ah
01:27:49
Speaker
Janoon seems to be a were-Tiger movie. Mahakal looked interesting because it's a ripoff of Nightmare on Elm Street. And finally, Briar. ah The Erwin brothers, Andrew and Jon. These guys are American Christian filmmakers.
01:28:13
Speaker
And they made two of these. The Grace Card, 2011. Mom's Night Out, 2014. I still believe, 2020. I'm going to guess Mom's Night Out. um No, it's actually The Grace Card. Okay. Yeah, Mom's Night Out is apparently a yeah Christian movie. It's about the Virgin Mary.
01:28:45
Speaker
No. All right. Well, Chris, you just eat that out by two. Hey, I'll take what I can get. An inch is as good as a mile. Thank you for your great game, my heart. Thank you for being such great competitors, you guys. You ready to talk about some baddie awards? Yes.
01:29:00
Speaker
so
01:29:32
Speaker
That's right. Congratulations to all our knee. Congratulations to all our nominees. And congratulations to you, Lister. You've made it to the end of the show. The final segment, the Batty Awards. Who wants to give out their Batty Award first?
01:29:46
Speaker
I'll do it. Yes, tell me your Batty Award. I want to give one to Jason Alexander for ah being brave enough to permanently change his own body. Stupid, special effect. Transhumanist icon. seconds
01:30:09
Speaker
How about you, Flann? Do you have a Batty Award?
01:30:16
Speaker
So I don't know if this this is permitted, but one of the things that Briar and I have been talking about is the fact that, um ah can I give, ah a I want to give my Batty Award to- To something that's not shallow how. To something that's not shallow how. sure I want to give my Batty Award to Ted Chang, who wrote a a short story, ah Liking What You See, which is,
01:30:42
Speaker
um in ah in the loosest way possible, but definitely the it's it's doing it, is exploring many of the same themes as Shallow Hal. It's like a science fiction story and it is disturbing me what if Shallow Hal but good. Yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, I really recommend that people check it out if they're like, well,
01:31:05
Speaker
Um, this film sounds bad, but I want to see some of the same themes explored in a competent way. Okay. Yeah. That sounds interesting. What about you? My heart. Do you have a baddie award? Oh yeah. I would like to give a shout out to the impoverished island nation of Kiribati. Uh, it's expected to be the first country in the world to, uh, lose all its land territory to climate change. So.
01:31:35
Speaker
they're like like they're they're relocating o the whole country is like gonna gonna go to New Zealand or something because they're just uh they're they're gonna be underwater eventually it's wild hang in there karabasi people we support you we're with you in spirit i guess i don't know what if there's anything we should do i'll find a link to something oh boy hang on i should have played this
01:32:06
Speaker
um alarm dumb alarm this next bit is kind of a bu give me a warning Well, my bad. The award is going to go out to those closing credits ah where you got to see little bits of video footage or still photographs of every member of the crew as their name came up in the closing credits. I thought it was a fun way. It was like a little yearbook. It was also maybe like a series of wanted posters. If you wanted to find where but everyone who gave their lives to bring the world.
01:32:42
Speaker
Yeah. Congratulations. Thank you for your three months of service towards putting this into the world and all to the sound of, uh, love goes where my Rosemary or love grows where my Rosemary goes.
Favorite Sixties Pop Tune: Rosemary
01:32:54
Speaker
yeah My second favorite sixties pop tune featuring a woman named Rosemary my favorite would be our closing credit this week. Briar and Flint, do you guys have anything that you want to, uh, put on blast? Anything you need to plug?
Briar's Book Announcement
01:33:11
Speaker
Right. Yeah, I do, because I just well, I have a book as we're recording this. I have a book coming out tomorrow. I think whoa. Ayers might have been out for like a few weeks. i Yeah, it's a collection of short queer horror stories called Lupus and Fabula. And I hope you will check it out. The book is like four dollars or something. So go ahead.
01:33:39
Speaker
But the paperback is very nice. Yes, the paperback is very nice. We'll put some links to something in the show notes. I will get something from you, Briar, and we will put a link to it. Listeners, click on the link. Go to your local bookstore and ask them to get Briar's book. Go to your local e-book store and ask them to download the book into your e-reader.
Next Week's Guest and Episode
01:34:03
Speaker
And also, come back next week where we'll be talking to my old friend. I'm so excited to get back in touch with him and have a chat. We'll be talking to Toby Goodshank and we'll be talking about the amazing Mr. No Legs. You don't want to miss that. And hey, you know what else you should do?
Listener Engagement Suggestions
01:34:25
Speaker
You should tell a friend about the show.
01:34:27
Speaker
And, uh, you should also, you should subscribe to the show. Those are the two things that you should do. And you and you should leave a comment. That's the third thing that you should do. And also the fourth thing that you should do is you could, you should go into the show notes and you'll find links to our social media and you can follow us on there and you can see what we've got going on. And, and the the fifth thing that you should do is you should go to the YouTube channel and you should check out the trailers that have been coming to cutting together. And, uh, and the, the, the sixth thing that you should do is, uh, be good.
01:34:56
Speaker
Goodbye.