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Clueless and Empire Records- The Man is Keeping You Down
30 Plays4 months ago
**This episode was recorded before the US Presidential Election, that's why we sound happy**
Come One, Come All! Capitalist Queens and Warriors fighting The Man! 1995 had something for everyone. We are watching important movies that established teen culture and gave us fashion icons to aspire to. These kids were so cool and had it all figured out. In retrospect, they are babies! Mere children. However, the clothes are timeless. Dust off those plaid miniskirts and grab your combat boots or your jimmy choos!
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112697/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_clueless
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112950/trivia/?ref_=tt_dyk_trv
https://www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/article/27133/1/insider-tales-from-the-making-of-empire-records
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Double Feature: Clueless and Empire Records
00:00:20
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to Hot Set. We are here. We are still watching movies that made the millennial generation, the little balls of sunshine that we really, really are. And today we're back on our double feature format. So we watched two movies that Coincidentally, at the time of of choosing, both came out in 1995, which I think is kind of perfect. We were just talking about that off mic.
Clueless: A Fashion and Cultural Icon
00:00:50
Speaker
So yeah, today we are discussing 1995's Clueless and Empire Records. And oh my god, the Battle of the Plaid. um
00:01:06
Speaker
I've never been so excited to see so much flap. I think we're going to kick it off by talking about Clueless, but is there anything that we need to say like before we even get into either of these movies? like I feel like there's so much. I mean, there's so much and we're going to miss a ton because that's just the nature of things.
00:01:27
Speaker
But what I do think is interesting is that, yeah, both of us did not realize or we had forgotten that both of these movies came out the same year in 95. And Clueless was has been referred to as a sleeper hit.
Empire Records: Cult Classic and 90s Culture
00:01:40
Speaker
Basically, nobody thought it was going to do well, and then it did really well.
00:01:43
Speaker
and continue to become a cult classic so that it's like defied generational limitations like you watch it and you love it or you know like it's relevant still people still think of it people still talk about it you can connect it to Emma Jane Austen you can also just connect it to being a a good like teen movie and you're gonna talk about the clothes no matter what. absolutely And then Empire Records on the other hand was a box office bomb like it did not do well and was not thought of well at the time by critics which as we know sometimes critics can go eat a block of salt.
00:02:22
Speaker
um because they have no joy or they're just really separate from the things that they're writing and talking about. And so they poo-poo things very quickly and very harshly. Or they just don't understand what yeah is actually going to resonate with teenagers, which is who's consuming this. yeah Yeah, and Empire Records became a cult favorite and like still has a life as kind of like a cult you know, memory of this part of the 90s. And I love them so much. Both
Contrasting 90s Styles
00:02:55
Speaker
have plaid, both have, you know, certain things in common. But one is like filmed so brightly and then the other one is filmed in a more grungy way. And so they just have these two separate feelings of the 90s, which is really interesting. Yeah, it's it's so funny what sort of become your
00:03:17
Speaker
your cultural icons of like a particular time and what kind of sticks in the collective memory and imagination about certain decades. And I do feel like Clueless has has more um broad recognition today with people that you know weren't even alive when it came out. And I think that it It kind of captures ah this like slightly inaccurate misremembering of what the 90s looked like more than Empire Records feels a little bit more in retrospect realistic to what the 90s looked like for those of us that were around. I think, too, and it's been discussed. like I looked at a couple articles. i The tabs are open, but I'm not even going to look at what they are. I'm sure you can just Google Clueless Costume Design. And you're going to have to dig a little bit, because especially since it's close to Halloween time when we're recording this, the results are all Halloween costumes, all which is annoying. Unhelpful.
00:04:23
Speaker
Super unhelpful, thank you. But what i what I have noticed multiple people say, human beings that I've talked to you about this and people that human beings that have written about this that I do not know, is that Clueless was very influential on changing fashion. It was coming out of grunge.
00:04:44
Speaker
And Empire Records was looking at, you know, yeah, it was part of it. Yeah, and it was also a different like economic set. Absolutely. That the movies are about. Yeah, the attitudes are very different. So it's like Empire Records, I think really represents a lot of the 90s, but it also represents going into the 90s and Coolest.
00:05:04
Speaker
is like going towards the millennium. towards the millennium yeah And it it just like both existed both existed equally, but like all of these bright colors from Clueless and the sets and like the matchy matchy like really started to take over.
00:05:23
Speaker
going down a rabbit hole. My brain just stopped completely because I was like, Oh God, the things that were being sold in stores. Like ah I was in Catholic school at this time. So I was a you in a world of plaid. I was in
Personal 90s Fashion Experiences
00:05:40
Speaker
plaid all day and like the matching things, the lacy socks, like all these things. But jumpers were a thing that we had at school. And jumpers in the UK, our sweaters jumpers here in Catholic school is a dress that is sleeveless, at least the ones that we wore. I have a blanket on my head. I just took a look at my phone.
00:06:05
Speaker
I think of them as like overalls if they were a dress. Yeah, they're they're very like... Like you still have to wear a shirt underneath. Yeah, there this is like a word that I keep using so much, but they're like a utilitarian dress. And like for the purpose of Catholic school, it's, well, everybody has the same thing. And then as we got older, we were offered a skirt.
00:06:27
Speaker
And I remember the transition into shorts, into being allowed to wear shorts. Anyway, yeah, and pants. Um, but like the jumper we had, and so in Clueless, jumpers are being worn by Cher and they are secular jumpers.
00:06:47
Speaker
like I'm going to go to a department store and be like, can I see your secular job? But I remember that they started selling them at stores. oh my and like the i i like I cannot even describe in words.
00:07:03
Speaker
the fervor of my desire to dress like Cher Horowitz. I had an outfit, one outfit, and this is the thing, is that like buying your Catholic school gear, we had to go to a specific store in town called Andy's Dad's Place, and they had a special back room for all the private schools like in the county, and that was it. In the front of Andy's Dad's Place was like cool stuff, and then in the back was for them.
00:07:29
Speaker
I just,
Mona May's Influence on Clueless Fashion
00:07:30
Speaker
the way that you're so casually telling me that the store was called Andy's Dad's Place. like That is not the name of a store. I don't, I think they're lying. It was so good. And it was at Bunair Shopping Center. Like, I would get so excited just because I was getting some new clothes, but then you'd walk past all the cool shit to your stupid Catholic school uniform. And you'd be like, ugh, I can't wear any of those cool shoes that are out on the floor at Andy's dad's place. I have to walk out with my dumb stuff. And like, so going to any regular store and there being a jumper, which is in the same shape as what I'm wearing to school, but it's in fun colors. Like it was so exciting to be able to be like, ooh, I know what this is, but like I can make it look cool. And having knee highs,
00:08:22
Speaker
knee highs, the jumper and a shirt underneath and then like a little sweater. I had one of those outfits one time and I think I wore it maybe twice and I was like this is this life isn't for me. I'm not built for these streets.
00:08:37
Speaker
I think I weirdly dressed ah more like Cher Horowitz later. like i i my My love of Clueless has never waned. It's always been with me. It's never been a forgotten and revisited. It's always at front of mind. and yeah I think that I didn't really start dressing a bit like Cher Horowitz until I was like late in high school and I don't know Why i I was definitely uncommitted fashion wise like generally like I could never commit to one sort of style identity but I definitely owned multiple plaid mini skirts in high school I definitely owned multiple sweater vests I definitely
00:09:28
Speaker
had some knee-high boots. Like I really did end up leaning into it, but it was like 10 years too late at that point, but like I didn't care. I did not care. It's like, let's be real, Plaid never dies, but oh going into high school, I was a minute away from, you know, Catholic school and I was like, Plaid, no, thank you for a bit. Let's try something else. Yeah. No thanks. And so I think that fashion wise in high school, cause like coolest for me was grade school, right? yeah And be five like right little. yeah And so the people who would have been dressing like this in high school at that time were older than us and they were super cool. Yeah. Oh my God. Like untouchably cool. Yeah. Like I could never, and I was right because I think that I was always more akin to Thai than I was to share or Dion 100% like the jeans or the comfy pants and then like a t-shirt.
00:10:26
Speaker
a belt and like some cool jacket, like in pla well plaid shirts, plaid shirts I've always had. That was just more comfortable. And then like a heck ton of bracelets and necklaces and like the dangly earrings that I would get at like estate sales. is This is a show about me and no, but am I going to think it about me? Yes. I wish this was what it was about because that sounds pretty cool, definitely cooler than mostly what I was wearing. so it was Yeah, it was just like it felt Watching this movie again, I remember that as a kid, the the transition where Ty comes to this school and is like taken in by Sharon Dion, that's like what it felt like for my first week of leaving parochial school and going into the public school system, was like, oh, you stray little lamb. You dumb, dumb, dummy. And then instead of like
Controversial Romance in Clueless
00:11:20
Speaker
you know being like, oh, we're going to make you into us, they were like, ooh.
00:11:26
Speaker
You're very you, huh? Okay, keep doing that. They're like thumbs up. yeahre like Good going. This ain't gonna change, that's okay. you're gonna You're gonna do you and you'll figure it out. And so I was like, I i recognized that ah whole thing about like what clothes say about you and what people see about you when you're wearing your clothes. And also in Clueless,
00:11:51
Speaker
when i think about it i basically just think about the posters okay and like i think about those plaid sets yeah like yellow and yellow and yellow or pink on pink on pink or red on red on red yeah share wears way more black in this she and i remember and she wears.
00:12:08
Speaker
she She has like certain points like where she's in all white, yeah where she's in black, where she's in these like she has like a mossy green, she has like burgundy. like She's not always in these like no bright popping colors, but somehow it all Like, the sum total of her wardrobe that became that yellow plaid set. Which means that it's iconic. It is an iconic memory yeah that it is, boom, that is the association. But dang, the costumes in this movie are... every everywhere. There's so much going on. So many people have so many different looks and like there's so many pieces going in. Cher has over 50 costume changes alone. it's And she's just one person. She's just one person who's, by the way, 60. She starts the movie. She's 15.
00:13:09
Speaker
ah We were eight years old when this came out. So she felt like she was 52, you know, that's like you're you're 21. There's no difference, right? You're just, yeah you are grown and you're so cool, all these things. And then I'm watching it now in my 30s and I'm just like, hold up.
00:13:32
Speaker
there are a few things that happen where I have questions. This child without a license. Where's your parental supervision?
Fashion as Expression in Clueless
00:13:40
Speaker
Zooming around Beverly Hills in that white Jeep with no driver's license. All the damage. It is kind of amazing. And it's something that I think about a lot because, you know, there's so many movies that are about high school and it always feels like the actual demographic of people watching them is younger than the characters. like there There are certain movies that that can kind of be like exempt from that, but generally, your your audience is going to be a few years younger than your characters. so yeah Your characters are going to seem like they kind of have it together or they they know something that you don't know, but I'm just like, yeah, watching this movie as an adult, you're like,
00:14:25
Speaker
Oh Cher. Oh no. Oh Dion. Oh. Just what the hell. And it's also amazing. Did you read about how, okay, so the costume designer for Clueless, Mona May. Mona May. a ma Amazing name. Also amazing CV. Did you read about her budget for this? Yes, I did. $200,000.
00:14:50
Speaker
which sounds like it sounds like a lot of money, but it is not not a lot of money. And even though it was in the 90s, it was like 94 or
Clueless vs. Empire Records: Fashion Landscapes
00:15:00
Speaker
whatever they were filming. Yeah, it goes further. It's different. But for how many costumes?
00:15:06
Speaker
yeah had to be on bodies. We've got Cher, Dionne, Ty, we've got Josh, Murray, Amber, Elton, chris the Christian. That's eight, ah her dad, yeah the teachers. the teachers like We're up to over 10 characters that are are, you know, important to the plot. These are not extras. These are people that have story arc happening in the movie. If you think about all the different outfits that they wear and then start dividing $200,000 up between that, it's like no money at all. No. And the thing is that she got designer clothes.
00:15:53
Speaker
For sure. Like that Aaliyah dress that she's wearing is an actual Aaliyah dress. She's wearing Jimmy Choo's. Like, there are actual Calvin Klein that the yellow suit was made by Jean-Paul Gautier. It was also fascinating because I read that that is actually the third version of that. The yellow plaid was originally blue and it didn't work because it didn't pop. And then they did it in red and it didn't work because it was Christmasy. Oh, yeah. And it wasn't until the, so we already went through three tries to get to that yellow suit. Those all cost money. It all costs money. And it's just like, that's a lot of pieces. That's a lot of pieces when you're putting together a look like that. Like each each individual item costs money. And so it's like way to go Mona May and your team yeah for having that budget and doing the hell out of it. And like with,
00:16:48
Speaker
freaking Dolce and Gavana and like all these other names that this was early 90s. So they weren't like as crazy massive as they are now because now they're X amount of years into their existence, but like they were still names. Yeah. And I mean, it's just crazy what she did now. And then also looking at her IMDB. Oh my God. Come on now. She did the Clueless TV show, which was which i six to 97. Did you watch that show? I don't think I did.
00:17:18
Speaker
oh i didn't hear so i didn't I watched the hell out of that show. It was fascinating because it had most of the original cast, but ri it
Authentic 90s Fashion in Empire Records
00:17:30
Speaker
did not have Alicia Silverstone, but like they had Dion, they had Murray, they had Amber.
00:17:37
Speaker
They kind of eliminated Tye's character from the show. It kind of existed in a world where they were not friends with Tye. They kind of alluded to her once or twice, if I remember correctly, and I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I do remember.
00:17:53
Speaker
ah but so I do remember correctly. I do remember a lot of things. oh But yeah, it kind of existed in a pre-tie world. And I also think it maybe existed with Mr. Hall and Mrs. and miss Geist, not a couple, perhaps. So sort of, but yeah, I mean, anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about. There are so many incredible nineties, like solid nineties legends on our CV. We've got Romeo and Michelle's high school union. Like I can't, I can't even talk about that. Like we've got high school high. We've got the wedding singer, a night at the Roxbury eight millimeter.
00:18:40
Speaker
Never been kissed. Oh, hi. And then we break into the new millennium with Loser and Xenon the sequel. Oh, no. Okay. I don't know about Xenon. I don't know her. That's it that's when it seems like she does, starts to do a lot of Disney stuff because she also does Wizards of Waverly Place, the movie. um Camp Rock 2, Lemonade Mouth. like There's a bunch of Disney stuff on here. And there's also like other things that we would totally recognize, which is just amazing. like She's just hitting it out of the park. But right then, in that chunk of time, these are... She also did three ninjas in 1992. Oh, like wow. Wow.
00:19:25
Speaker
Movies that shaped us, for sure, will they be on this season? Can't say. But like, they are so, these are things that like Halloween costumes about the 90s were made of, you know? Absolutely. absolutely It's crazy. Or the 80s, because Wedding Singer, but like,
00:19:46
Speaker
But you can see like there's a distinctive, vibrant, colorful, fun exuberant yeah vibe to a lot of these projects. it is she like Her eye is so bright and like so good at yeah making these things that are like so solid and so tied together in this world that is like way brighter than any world that I I'm used to, but it's amazing too how many of these clothes you can see like on the street now. Like these are fashions that have come back. like likeless I remember like it was years ago now, but I remember Target
Music and Fashion Interconnection
00:20:30
Speaker
like did
00:20:32
Speaker
a version of the yellow suit. And I was like, well, clearly I'm going to walk into Target and buy it. And the only thing that stopped me was that I like touched the fabric. And it was made of... Yeah, it was made of flannel. And I was like, well, that simply won't do. And then I discovered that what looked like a yellow plaid miniskirt on a mannequin was actually a pair of shorts. Oh, no. And I was like, Target, why would you do this to me? This is one of those things that can just go die. And it's OK if you have a different
00:21:13
Speaker
experience or a different opinion. It's okay. Everybody's wrong sometimes, but cool hot skirts. so yeah
Character Analysis through Fashion
00:21:20
Speaker
no i sorry Those can go away. i If you add an extra panel around the back that makes the whole thing look like an actual skirt, then I'm with you. But if it just looks like shorts from the back and a skirt from the front, knee I want you to fall down a hill slowly. We need to talk about that. It was not cool then. I hate it now. And that's okay. It's my opinion and you know I'm right.
00:21:41
Speaker
Unlike last episode, I'm not going to disagree with you because I, I feel the same way. So yes, correct. You just, I just don't think that you can, I do think I, I do think I had one of those in the nineties. Yeah, so did I. And I had them against my will. I think I had mine by choice because I went to public school and no one ever was really telling me what to wear other than like common. It was movies. It was movies and TV that were telling us what to wear. It was Mona May telling me what to wear. It was Mona May. But I was also like woefully out of date with all the things that I was choosing to wear. Yeah. like Clueless. Oh my God. And Clueless for me is a video store rental movie. I don't know. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like I think that's why the poster is so ingrained because it's like walking through the aisles of the video store and like the VHS copy of Clueless with the poster on the cover. Like you just every time you're like, well, am I going to rent Clueless today? I might yell the plastic. with the squeeze at the sides to like release the... Yeah, I can feel that in my hand. Should we be those people and talk about how Clueless is based on Jane Austen's Emma? I mean, we did reference it. We mentioned it. Okay, good. I'm glad I don't really want to talk about it. We did our obligatory mention and now we can let it go. I think that everyone who cares knows and everyone who doesn't care doesn't want to hear about it.
00:23:11
Speaker
Okay, let's talk about the ongoing discourse of Cher and Josh ending up together at the end of the movie. As we like as a warm up, our little ramp into that.
00:23:27
Speaker
yeah Let's talk about it through costume. So, great. We see Josh is like total, like kind of grunge without when you have like Nirvana grunge. He's just like college grunge kid. Yes. Where he's like listening to college music, Radiohead, and like getting into heady conversations with his like college girlfriend. His cool college girlfriend about philosophers. And who like lost who is too serious and doesn't even hear what she's saying. And they're both, see where they're laying down in the middle of the movie when she gets wrong? And you can't tell who's feeling it.
00:23:57
Speaker
who peter whos because they're both wearing like boot cuty their but so mom left like full like blasted denim faded like boots This is the college like this shows that you're in college and that you're thinking now is that you're wearing like relaxed jeans.
00:24:17
Speaker
and like t-shirts with like an open button up. And so he just has this like thing throughout where he doesn't really change fashion wise. He just like is himself. He's not ever trying to dress fancier to catch shares on his next stepsister. Okay, see i but we do i like I feel like the discourse about that has like gotten more extreme than the way that that it is portrayed in the movie and I don't know how to feel about what is said in the movie and what I know to be true. What what first hits me is that when Cher starts to realize that she's having
00:25:02
Speaker
different feelings about her ex-step-brother, Josh. who It sounds like this is like the healthy home for him and that he has a great relationship with his ex-step-dad who's like, I love you, kid, and I want you to have good stuff in life. yeah I want you to have good opportunities. and yet You're smart. He's like, you're interested in what I'm interested in. I can help you. He says at one point to share you divorce wives, not child children. Not children.
00:25:28
Speaker
Which means that this is like, what the hell? What a great, like, this guy, the dad is such a, just like, well, just like an Emma, the dad is a pain in the ass to everybody else, but actually has a really good relationship with his daughter. And like, he- He cares about her. He cares about her. And he has, in his own way, they've both found a middle ground to communicate about things. And like, he trusts her.
00:25:55
Speaker
with herself and he trusts his ex steps on with himself and like yeah Becoming the man that he wants to be he's not forcing him to follow in his footsteps. He's like you're interested in it Come and spend time. Yeah, and your room is always here You can always come and he decides to stay because he doesn't like his new stepdad who you know is really combative with him and that's how he decides to be a dad or whatever it's like the Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, I would do the same thing. It's wonderful. Like when you, when you look at it from that lens, like they don't have to be family to be family. And like, you know, this person recognized that he had an impact on this young man's life. And he's like, yeah, just cause your mom and I aren't married anymore doesn't mean that I don't care about you as a person.
Comparing Cultural Portrayals
00:26:40
Speaker
Right.
00:26:41
Speaker
And so it's very complicated. It's hard. It's also like, okay, so they say in the movie that they were going for like five minutes. And that it that they got divorced five years prior to the events of this movie. Which means that if she was 15 at the beginning of the movie, she was 10. She's 10 and he was probably 13 because he's a freshman in college. thank you for clarifying that because I did have a lot of questions about yes where it's going to follow through. She says very specifically at one point, why aren't you in the freshman dorms? Okay. Because she's like, why aren't you in my house? Yeah, I think I feel like in my head he's going to UCLA. I don't know that they ever explicitly say that, but he talks about having an apartment or something in Westwood, which is close to the UCLA campus and close to Beverly Hills. So like it all kind of makes sense to me. I you for somebody, myself, who doesn't know the topography of LA or the map.
00:27:40
Speaker
It makes sense. I've spent very minimal amount of time in Los Angeles. That's the other thing that is so interesting and it's kind of like not the most relevant, but um I find like the fashion of Empire Records more relatable to my life yeah than the fashion of Clueless, despite the fact that we blow both grew up in California. we ok all yeah But it's a very different part of California. Let's finish talking about the brother the ex yeah okay And then we'll get into that because that is a great observation that we should do. I know that the the internet has the ick for Cher and Josh ending up together. And to me, maybe more of that ick should be based on the fact that she's 15 and he's 18, which is... It's kind of icky. And she is 16 by the end. By the end, but then he's also 19. 19 by the end. And like, yeah, that's where the ick should be, is that like, you should, yeah. Don't date a high schooler. Don't date a high schooler. Like, I get it. If you're kids and like you went to the same grade school, whatever, and then, you know, that gap right extended as you kept dating or like you were in high school, you know, but it's like when you're in middle school or high school and somebody older who is not in middle school or high school is like, yeah, let's date. Yeah. No immediate suspicion. Red flag. Like why? read And a friend was dating a 21 year old and that was like, and I was the bad guy because I was like,
00:29:17
Speaker
No. No, don't do that. No, no, no, no, no. I was raised by a single mom who was like, this is what a predator looks like. And then rolled out a scroll with details. And I was like, uh-oh. No. Yeah. like And it's OK that I'm not cool for thinking that way, but I was like, you're 12.
00:29:34
Speaker
That's not dating. No, I'm so sorry to one. I'm so sorry to tell you that is actually not dating. That is just bad. all Yeah, that's just bad. And so this isn't that, but it's no bill like, it's not great. It's not great. Like if I, if I had been in college and a friend of mine was like, yeah, my girlfriend's 16. I would be like, Oh, what are we doing here? Like, what are we doing? I don't know. So it's like, yeah, the age difference at that time, especially, is like, one of you is a child. Technically, you're both children because you both have teen in your age. But like, there's a there's a big difference in development from 16 to 19.
00:30:14
Speaker
And it's very like clearly portrayed in the way that the characters behave in the movie, that they are in high school mentally as well as physically. They are in different developmental mental places. yeah And like she's a smart person. There's no taking away from that. But she's a smart sheltered person. Sixteen year old. Yes. And he is a smart, you know,
00:30:39
Speaker
funny. Also kind of naive. like he's yeah I mean, they're both very they're both very wealthy wealthy and grew up in a very particular bubble, which is why the movie is not super relatable to anyone.
00:30:54
Speaker
Now we can talk about the rest of the bubble of California. Yeah. Now I grew up in the Bay Area. I grew up like 35 minutes north, 40 minutes north of San Francisco, which is Marin County, which is a wealthy area. Not me though.
00:31:10
Speaker
Like in any wealthy area there are regular people who are not middle class, who are living in apartments and that was that was us and like doing okay but we were not at the same economic level of most people that I went to school with yeah and they were kind of on the share side where they had you know both parents were lawyers People would get a car for their birthday, you know, all that kind of shit. So they would wear things that were designer, but they weren't loud about it. Like there was a difference. It's the old mining vibe. Yeah. Well, sort of. can just like Well, it's that like it ah the stealth. Yes, the stealth wealth and not having to shout it out, but also being like, this is the brand new this and this is the brand new that at the same time. And then you grew up
00:32:02
Speaker
yeah for the nor yeah I grew up about like two one you know two hours north of San Francisco in a very middle-class area.
00:32:14
Speaker
if like I would say that like we in our area would like a view Marin County as like, oh, okay. Everybody who's heard of Marin County is like, oh, like in American Sign Language.
00:32:29
Speaker
Do you know what to sign for Merenice? No, I didn't know there was one. Oh, yeah, there is. Okay, so I learned from an amazing teacher who is deaf. Jeannie Layton, I think, was her last name. And um this was a very long time ago. You make an M and then you tilt your head up so that you're looking down your nose. And you swipe the bottom of your nose away from your face and feel like the M away. Meren.
00:32:56
Speaker
That is so perfect for you, snobs. And so what's funny is that Marin is such a, it is a bubble. It's just like, yeah, it's one of the wealthiest places in America. It is. And it's, there's a big disparity there too. Like, let's not forget that, but like, there's a lot of money there. And so in that sense, I was very much like, Oh, I see this where these people have no, you know,
00:33:22
Speaker
and Groundedness and how they're actually thinking about how they are in the world like share is essentially a baby serial killer like she's just driving with her eyes closed It's crazy like she's never faced a consequence that you can talk her way out Oh my god, and so it's like yikes, but At the same time, I also was in this like you know very small, very closed school environment that then opened up into a bigger public school environment. And so I was able to see like people with these advantages in different circumstances and like exercising those things in a small world and then in a bigger world.
00:34:01
Speaker
but also like being very naive myself. So being able to understand exactly how naive her character is without all of my thoughts being with a question mark and being like, what do you mean? But also I was just like that naivete, but then yeah, seeing all of this around you. And then I was like very much more like Thai where I'm like, what is this?
00:34:24
Speaker
You can have that outsider just like. And then also I had this like to Brecken Meyer's character who is a Birkenstock. Like the greatest name ever. Well also Birkenstock. The factory, yeah. The factory like is this in Marin grand County. And so there's this building that's massive but I think is up for sale again. Which like Birkenstock has put up for sale, has taken it back.
00:34:51
Speaker
for sale, taking it back. And I think it's up for sale again. But I was like, oh, so that's a local. And I was like, what the hell?
00:35:02
Speaker
But at the same time, that Birkenstock kid was a good representation a lot of a lot of moneyed kids in my county, which is that they were like so privileged that they just didn't really have to think about a bunch of things and just yeah like throw on whatever and just like flow out of bed. and life and But they were more like mountain bikers because apparently mountain biking came from mar whatever. Are you serious? That's something that they try to tell you in Fairfax is that they created mountain biking. Like, did you?
00:35:34
Speaker
Oh, did they create mountains too? Yeah, they started here. Wow. so So it's like, it's not Bel Air, it's not Beverly Hills, it's not that stuff, but it was. Yeah. And and yet very different because Northern California is different than Southern California and North Northern California is different than Mid-Northern California. Correct. There's very different sensibilities, like you being two hours north of San Francisco was very different than 30, 35 minutes north of San Francisco. It's like a whole different world up here. like I live in a much more agricultural area, um but that agriculture is mostly wine.
00:36:16
Speaker
and expensive wine. So it's like a very weird vibe. Like you want to talk about like stealth wealth. Like, yeah I mean, it's, it's extremely stealthy up here. Like it's not, it's not part of, it's not part of the culture to be flashy up here. No, it's more part of the culture to like have your work boots and like have your, your ag truck and your car hearts.
00:36:43
Speaker
and your bank full of money. yeah That's your nice shiny John Deere stuff and then the money and the wine. bank yeah and have like and People kind of don't know where your house is and then discover that it's like this millions of dollar like villa like tucked into a hillside. You're like, so okay. But that but like for actually the people that I grew up with is you know a much more middle-class situation. so It was really hard to be so stylish. and so ah test I want people to understand that being courageous with your fashion choices was a very dangerous, socially dangerous move. So bold of you to be courageous.
00:37:33
Speaker
know like Fashion was not part of my like peer group in school, like it it was like, if I wanted to dress like Cher Horowitz, people were going to be like, why are you dressed like such a weirdo? And that's why I stopped wearing that outfit was because this is why it like fits, the movie fits for the location that the story is being told is because There's potentially like a reality of like we expect you to dress to a certain way. We expect you to look a certain way. We want your hair done. We want this. We want that. like there's a It's kind of the difference between youth of today and youth of when we were pre-social media.
00:38:14
Speaker
right that youth today are used to being looked at. They're used to putting their faces out. And so they like know like these people, people out there are like incredible, like they're going to have incredible careers in makeup and stuff because they know yeah how to do all of these things that make them look so put together when they're freaking 12. And I was like, wow.
00:38:33
Speaker
oh i and like a bo miss They have this portal to communities that teach them and like trade whatever and where you can like learn and like find community with people that are interested in those things. We didn't have that. when we were kids. So it was sort of like, if you were the only person that was like into a certain thing in your general area, like you were on your own. Yeah. And it's like you were a cartoon character, whereas like Cher or Dion or Amber, any of these characters, they're kind of like setting an expectation and maybe it's the culture of the school, maybe it's the culture of the city or their individual families to kind of show who they are with what they're wearing.
00:39:15
Speaker
yeah And like they are conscientious of European designers. like Cher talks about you know these designers. She talks about like where her clothes are coming from and they're not just coming from Ross. like like She mentions her her white dress. She shouts out Calvin Klein. When she's trying to find a particular shirt to wear for her driving test, she calls out Fred Siegel. I didn't know that.
00:39:41
Speaker
I didn't know that. I knew Calvin Klein is underwear and that's pretty much it. I knew the name from Back to the Future. right i should write oh It was a movie reference for me. And then it's also like, you know then that this character, these characters at this economic level are shopping like in Beverly Hills. Like they are shopping on these like famous streets going into designer stores, which she does at one point where she's going on her like, you know, i am soul bearing journey. And it's just like,
00:40:08
Speaker
I wonder if those are in my size. The familiarity and confidence to walk into a designer store and just pick things out and buy them is not relatable to most people. That's a part of their economic level. That's a part of their education.
00:40:26
Speaker
yeah is that like is to know these designers, to know. like People like that very often do know how much work goes into something being made. True. Because they want to be able to talk about the designer and like these specific details. so like There are people who are very into design design clothing, designer clothing, where they do know the terms for stitches, because like that also elevates you know, them and company that they know that this thing exists and that it was made this way. And they can also recognize a knockoff from something that is actually designer based on, you know, certain stitches, et cetera. So it's like, there's all this stuff that goes into this community. And yeah, that's why I didn't keep wearing the share clothes was because I felt really uncomfortable. I stuck out like a sore thumb. Like we were not,
00:41:16
Speaker
in a time or in a place where you wanted to peacock like that. We were also not coming up in a different time with a different style, which was athleisure. Yeah, it was much more pared down, juicy. And that was not what I wore. Like one of the big style things that that was important in my grade was having those Adidas that were white with the three color stripes. Oh, sure. If you had those, that was pretty damn cool. And so it was just like, it felt so like a different generation to have these people be so fancy. There were no glamour girls in my school and growing up. That wasn't a thing. like we didn't I grew up in a small town. We didn't even have cheerleaders. like We didn't have that.
00:42:09
Speaker
like category of girl that Dion and Cher fit into, like that was missing from my schooling. So it was sort of like there is no one that's setting that social tone. And if you wanted to try to like emulate those styles, it was considered like alternative.
00:42:32
Speaker
Yeah, because they're yeah are like, what are you doing? We had those girls, but they were dressing in juicy. Yeah, you know, it was a very much more relaxed thing. So like also a difference between clueless and what we recognize of the 90s is that clueless, the way that everybody was dressing in all these layers with all these details and all this stuff is very much an older sensibility from like even the I mean, yeah, the eighties, but also like when you think of the sixties or the forties, the fifties where people had like afternoon suits or, you know, like there were, right you wear a hat that goes with a specific outfit and that the shoes go with that outfit and you wear it forever as long because you're taking very good care of it, et cetera. But like it was a very different way of dressing. Relating to clothing. Relating to clothing. And so with us, it was more, we were coming up very hard with fast fashion and with athleisure and
00:43:26
Speaker
Just like fancy sweatpants. It was not about meticulous dressing, like not in that way. Yeah, it wasn't the same. Yeah, but it was very like specific in particular and like your hair had to be a certain way. But like the pants were so low. Please never come back low rise. Oh my God.
00:43:45
Speaker
And like, oh it was it was pretty terrible. But it's like, thematically, I could recognize, you know, the Cher and the Dionne. But like, yeah there was no one who was going to wear that hat that Dionne is wearing at the top of the movie. Oh, and then the world is the poorer for it. Poor it, because it was so great.
00:44:05
Speaker
I'm like, to this day, I don't understand the construction of that hat, and I don't need to understand. I'm content to just admire it. Yeah, it's just a magical creature that just landed in front of our eyeballs. Before we move on to Empire Records, which unfortunately I think we must do. Yes, time-wise, absolutely.
00:44:26
Speaker
I think that it is it is absolutely unconscionable to have a 16-year-old be your bridesmaid at your wedding if you're a high school teacher.
00:44:41
Speaker
I think that that is wrong and weird. I think having them even be flower girls would be fine. Having them even attending, I think, is weird. I think it makes sense thematically because they are the ones that put them together. They are, but I think it's inappropriate. I think it's extremely inappropriate. to have a 16-year-old in your wedding. No one can convince me otherwise. I think it's wrong. I am not looking for input on this opinion. Also, I do love that this dowdy teacher, Miss Geist, has these amazing outfits the whole time and is like yeah frazzled. I recognize her. I am her. At the end,
00:45:23
Speaker
She has reached peak Miss Geist with a backless wedding gown. That gown, she was so snatched into that wedding gown. I was like i i surprised if RuPaul had worn that outfit. That was a stunning turnaround for Miss Geist.
00:45:42
Speaker
like wow just an amazing topper for the movie i mean this is one of those movies where there's so much fashion in it there's so many different looks there's all these different things that it's kind of hard to just like go one through the other so it's you just anyone like if you haven't seen Like, just watch, just enjoy. yeah Just watch it and enjoy. It's beautiful. There's so much happening. And it's also just like such a fun kind of time capsule of even a slightly heightened, you know, nineties. It's very fun. And the work done by the costume team is fantastic. And so I highly recommend also like Googling some articles about Mona May talking about, you know, her work in this because she does, there, there are quite a few, there's like the Los Angeles Loyolin has a few. Yes, I found that one. I'm wondering if she went to school there or something. Maybe. And then there's also a Vanity Fair. And so like there's quite a few different articles where she actually talks about and like specifically talks about the costumes and how they were put together. And it's interesting to be able to have that insight into the process. So I'm very glad that those exist. And that it is a movie that people are like, it's been 25 years. Let's have another article.
00:46:52
Speaker
And our next movie is the same. There are people who are like, it's been X amount of years since it came out. Let's talk to the designers. Let's reflect on this vintage movie now because it is old and so are you for reading this.
00:47:10
Speaker
listen you don't have to get that real and stab me in the chest like that but okay we're the same age so this is true of i'm stabbing i'm yeah stabbing you might having right through you into me that's right so our next film on the double feature which we have been referring to the entire time is empire records Damn the man! Oh, the man is so present in this movie. oh He was... The man did not make an appearance in Clueless, even though his fingerprints are all over it. I mean, we could argue that Cher is the future of the man. I think that her dad your dad is the man i think he is actually the man. And not like, oh, that you're the man. it's No, the man. The man is keeping you down. Yes, the man. And I just would love to say that I love this movie.
00:48:07
Speaker
Empire Records is such a time capsule for me of a 90s that I do recognize because it's showing and highlighting a part of a culture that is not really hear any more in the way that it was back then. We still have record stores. They went away and they're just like coming back. They're coming back. yeah But like in you know in the city in San Francisco, we still have Amoeba, we still have Rasputin, we have these like awesome iconic record stores where you can go in and it looks like Empire Records. like It still feels like that.
00:48:43
Speaker
yeah It's had generations of just all these different people from all these different places who are just united by the fact that they like music. It feels like Clueless is like costume wise is about a lot of people who are dressing very deliberately. And Empire feels like a lot of people trying to look like they don't care.
00:49:04
Speaker
Yes, which is so important to do. It's such an important distinction. And um I just like recognize all of these people because these are the clothing styles that I saw. like And that I also wore more, like 100% Deb.
00:49:25
Speaker
Yep, sweatshirt, tank top, the different layers, like that that was how I dressed. yeah i I also feel like, I mean you can argue this in Clueless because with any character when you're designing or talking about in costume, the costume is not just a costume, the costume has a purpose and in Clueless, yeah we you know We did not go deep into the psychology of that, but here, there are quite a few people who are wearing clothes as armor and they kind of talk about it without talking about it directly. Absolutely. But this movie is like, what made Music Stores so cool in the 90s is that there were so many different people and like everybody was in there.
00:50:08
Speaker
They were like so cool. It made me remember the warehouse, which was sit down here. We used to have um tower records and the warehouse.
00:50:20
Speaker
and the warehouse was not spelled W-A-R-E, it was where as in where are you house. oh yeah and I remember the warehouse because it was our local record store and it was massive and just had like listening stations and it had yeah all this stuff going on and the kids in there were so cool and I was like nine and 10 and just like 11, 12 and just like such a nerd and I was going in there and I was buying Les Mis. the Broadway soundtrack and i like the double disc, you know, and I was buying like Enya and Enigma. So I was like, wow, this like new age, sail away, sail away. I was not, and I was also listening to like the Beatles. I was listening to like rock and folk. there was such Like it was so important in the nineties to be into the Beatles. Like it's crazy. It was, well, it was like,
00:51:16
Speaker
I mean, people made it be this like, you're cool if you know, but it was also just like a music history thing to me, at least for me because my mom like was of the age to come up loving the Beatles. And so they were massive to her. And then they became a massive hyper fixation for me because the anthology discs came out. yeah And so I used to take my boombox everywhere. I played the Beatles.
00:51:40
Speaker
Oh my God. Back to back to back to back. But like. You were coming from such a different place musically because. Such a different place. This era for me was like you couldn't tell me anything unless it was about the Backstreet Boys, the Spice Girls, Britney Spears. It was a wild time. I was not interested if it wasn't pop music. It was a wild like nexus of times, right? Because like my mom was a little bit older than other parents, just a different generation. And so my music influences were 60s, 70s, 80s, like hardcore, and a lot of 90s, like fem folk, fem rock. And because we didn't have cable, MTV was not a massive influence on me. The closest I was to MTV was probably m Empire Records.
00:52:27
Speaker
Wow. And then hanging out at people's houses and seeing TRL. And so this is a thing where people just like, you know, it's just not what people are experiencing now. So it's just a different way of getting music is like off of YouTube or Spotify or Bandcamp or whatever. But we got to see the artists like a lot and like getting interviewed on TRL, behind the music, VH1. Yeah. the celebrity of it was so so much a part of it yeah in this era. And it's massive now too, but it was like yeah more approachable. This is where it started. yeah Yeah, it was very approachable because it was like you got to hear these people talk about stuff and talk about how they made a music video or
00:53:11
Speaker
whatever. And um so, like, also just radio, you know, radio existing the way that it did before Clear Channel meant that we could hear tons of different kinds of music on each station. Like, even if each station had its own theme, we were hearing and being exposed to all different types of things, which is something that I really love about this movie. Yes, we're a costuming podcast, well but like,
00:53:36
Speaker
You could argue that a bunch of these people dress as a different kind of music scene. They do, and that is something like because we both ah famously didn't take a lot of notes on either one of these movies this time. It's fine. I took more notes on this one than I did on Clueless. I didn't. I i told myself I would and then I didn't. But something that I've always been really fascinated by is the connection between music and fashion because it is so much a part of it so much in a way that I don't i I feel like people you know people do talk about it but it's like
00:54:15
Speaker
the image of your favorite musician is so much has to do with what they wear yeah in conjunction to how they play. And it's like there are whole fashion movements that are just based on music. Yeah, there's some cultures. And yeah like and it's like if you dress a certain way, people will make assumptions about the kind of music that you like. yeah Yeah. And that's something that I really love that is like a little subtext throughout this movie is like it takes place in a record store. All of these kids know the music and they don't just know their music. They know all of it because they're selling it and they're talking about it with people. And like any record store, like this was what was so intimidating to me as a kid is that
00:55:02
Speaker
I'm just going to give a shout out to a record store. In my mind, I won't say it out loud, but there is a record store that myself and a lot of people I know who've been in, you felt so judged. Oh my God. And that's a thing that is so real. I was scared of music. I was like scared of record stores. It was intimidating because everybody there knew all this different types of music and no matter what you brought up,
00:55:28
Speaker
you felt like it was not the right thing. It wasn't the right music. Because if you bought what was like fresh and new, they were like, okay, poser. Then if you bought like a deep cut of some random Celtic band from the 70s, they were like, okay, grandpa. You know what I mean? like It was just like you could never do it right. can't win and This movie makes it feel like you could. so I kind of love that because there's a scene where where Mark, who's like the skater kid who gets super high and gets like thrilled that he's like high and like imagines himself in a guarms video.
00:56:05
Speaker
And then he's being eaten by Goire. I love that so much. But he's sitting with these two kids and he's like reading the handout from Music Town and he's like, they wouldn't let us play Tupac or Big or any of these people. And like he knows the meaning of a dip like of a different subculture than than what he might be assumed to be a part of or assumed to be personally into because you look at him and you go look at this little punk kid and he's like, yeah, I'm into punk, but he's also like, but I love the rest of it too. Like he's super into all these things. He's knowledgeable about it. And he's also a total dummy. And like I made a list of what I, my impressions of a bunch of the characters. AHA dresses like a theater kid who plays hacky sack and loves the dead. It's the cardigan.
00:56:55
Speaker
The cardigan is what puts it over the top. It's the unnecessary patch that's way too clean. The unnecessary patch. I have so many questions about how that patch ended up on those pants. You know that he stitched it. I don't know that he did. I bet he did. I think that Liv Tyler stitched it on for him. That's what I think.
00:57:16
Speaker
I think that I think that she did it. Well, and that's the thing that we should mention that that Empire Records takes place over the course of one day. one that We really only have one set of clothes on our character. Yes. And there's like things come and go. But yeah, things kind of change. But like nobody fully changes anything that they're wearing. Right. And except like to go in and out of something. Yeah, to take clothes off and yes. on Mark is the skater kid. Correct. ah Joe is the cool dad.
00:57:46
Speaker
Oh, the fact that he has a button-up shirt and black pants, but with a leather blazer and a vintage tie, that's how you know that he's cool. And it's also so extremely East Coast of him to wear that. It really is.
00:58:07
Speaker
And the tie is a little sloppy, which I love. And the shirt gets unbuttoned over time because it's furious. Lucas. He's going to roll his sleeves up to deal with all these kids. These children. Lucas has the turtleneck. Oh, he's the poet. Yeah, he's absolutely. But he also has the turtleneck for his neck. And he's the turtleneck for his forehead. And those are his little baby babies.
00:58:29
Speaker
Yes, he does. He's got that the Julius Caesar, yeah like George Clooney and ER r haircut. yeah like what little frankenstein being like Talking about time capsule, like that haircut only existed for like one year and that year was 1995. like wasn't so mainstream and like you can still find it now but like it it wasn't as like mainstream as it was for a minute. We have Corey who could be in college today with the little tiny kawaii backpack and the cropped mohair sweater that I can only imagine was brutally itchy because she's not wearing a shirt underneath it. I can't like I can't imagine wearing that sweater without a shirt underneath. And then Corey also seems like she would be Cher from Clueless' cousin, but in Doc Martens. And then Gina Renee Zellweger uses her clothes as a weapon. and this a hot bad girl She's the hot bad girl and the skirt that she's wearing could be sold at Target right now.
00:59:27
Speaker
Absolutely. That like poly stretch. Oh my god. Micro mini. And then Jane looks like, looks like she should be running an art gallery somewhere. And then when she comes back to ask Jo to dinner, she looks like an art gallery owner during the daytime.
00:59:43
Speaker
This woman's wardrobe has to have so many hats because she is the person who does have two different outfits in the same day. bless And then Deb is the punk grunge girl who yeah the actress shaved her head in that scene for real. And she's the punk grunge girl who's the other side of the Gina coin. She also uses her clothes as armor. Absolutely. And like and shaving her head is oh yeah massive statement absolutely a bold statement to make. Yeah. And like the way she did it where she's like happy about it in the moment, but it's also like a statement, like a punctuation. It's just like I always was really affected by that. I think a lot of women, you know, uh,
01:00:33
Speaker
are affected by that because like your hair is such a cultural statement about who you are and your attractiveness, your place in society. And taking that away is like if something happened to you, if you've had a a break or an emotional upset, just any kind of threshold that you're walking over, Britney Spears,
01:00:56
Speaker
People usually like to associate the haircutting with like a mental break, but really it's a freedom. It's freeing yourself from an expectation as well. Absolutely. there's all direction of yeah it's like yeah It's a total rejection of like societal expectation. It's a rejection of the male gaze. yeah It's just like kind of the ownership over your whole body without this like yeah expectation put on you to be a certain way.
01:01:23
Speaker
And she and Gina, what I love about the relationship and that they are visually opposites of like a coin is that genus hiding or and she's not hiding herself, sorry. Deb is hiding a lot of herself under layers. like She has a lot of protective layers. And then Gina is like very tight-clothing, very revealing.
01:01:43
Speaker
At one point, she's just wearing an apron and underwear. like Just dancing around doesn't really care. like shes She's putting forth that her body she's very free with, even though that might not necessarily be true. It's something that she is using as her own protection and her own armor and her own ownership. And then Deb is doing it in a slightly different way. And they're constantly like at each other throughout the movie, but then they turn around multiple times and go like,
01:02:09
Speaker
were not that different without saying that. yeah And i I really love that visual difference between the two of them. yeah um We also have Eddie who's like this pizza guy who comes in and out. Oh, I love pizza guy Eddie. And it seems like he has his own working corner in Empire where he's like the guy who checks records and CDs for scratches and like these guys.
01:02:33
Speaker
He's got his like dual role and he's just like exactly what's described on the tin, which is like a weed dealing pizza guy. And he's like so empathetic to so many of the characters. Like he's just a sweetheart. yeah And he was like the dealer. Unsung hero. Unsung hero. And we also have Birko, who is a vampire. And I have an interesting little tidbit about him.
01:02:58
Speaker
Right. I always forget about him until the movie starts. Until he pops up and you're like, we've got Warren, whose name isn't actually Warren. Oh my God. Who has a jacket that can hide anything? If that kid pulled fried chicken out of a sleeve. I would not doubt it. Yeah. And if he pulled like a phone book out, I'd be like, yep, that can fit in there. That fits in there. We have Rex Manning, because it's Rex Manning day at Empire. I love Rex Manning's costume. So perfectly dressed, like an over the top twat, like he's, or twat, like he didn't pull the worst. So, like, they, they so, uh, Susan Lyle, our costume designer, so perfectly captured the way that he is out of step with the youth, like the zeitgeist, the youth culture. He is so out of what is cool. He would be very suitable in the 70s.
01:03:54
Speaker
Yes. And or like the very early 80s where there was like this thing to sell to women, these like crooners who had very elaborate like shirt collars and like silky shirts and satiny stuff and like these moves tall love long hair. Yeah. And like he looks like you should be on the cover for romance and 100% should be on a horse.
01:04:20
Speaker
And instead he's just the worst and like in every sense. And he's wearing this like saturated purple blouse. oh like And it's satin and then he's got velvet and he's got like the giant 70s collar. Everything sees him and has their own reaction and almost every single person in the line to get his autograph is like way older than he wants his audience to be yeah or he as young as he wants his audience to be, but they're getting signatures for their moms. their mom And so he's just getting like battered by insults the whole time, which he well deserves because he's a shit. And um I just like have this note here, the hair in this movie, the eyebrows in this movie, there's so much
01:05:08
Speaker
it like There's definitely product in people's hair, like for sure, but it feels like people are wearing their hair without tons and tons of crazy specific haircuts.
01:05:25
Speaker
Yeah, the 90s is very like loose and casual with the hair. Like it's a rejection of the 80s over styling. So there's like like and there's the appearance of doing nothing even though that's not even though that's not true. yeah Yeah, so it was just like it just very much stands out where it doesn't feel so So... I don't know what the word is that I'm looking for. still Sculpted? Yeah, it doesn't feel super sculpted. So when Rex Manning is there, he feels like crazy because he and Joe have very similar hair, which is like longer and like swoopy, but Joe's is like floppy and is like very naturally attractive to him. And then Rex Manning is even complaining about his because he's like this stupid hairstylist like did this wrong. like didddle is yeah He's got long highlights. I'm so confused. like What did you want? yeah What did you want? Because this looks in keeping with the rest of your weird vibe. And like when he shows up, Liv Tyler's character has such a hard-on for him. like Her whole goal is to lose her virginity to him. Which is so confusing. He shows up and he has pale lipstick on.
01:06:38
Speaker
which is a lipstick that I don't think I've seen since at least 2006. It's just like to make your look dead, you know? It's like, oh, somehow it's lighter than your natural lip color and somehow that's supposed to be good. It's like not, it's not good. And there are, I mean, like, I don't even know where to go specifically, but here is the little tidbit that I wanted to tell you about Birko, who is,
01:07:07
Speaker
okay Coyote shivers, which not not necessarily a great guy with a great history of being a person. I don't know anything about him. he I'll Google it. I'll Google it. Here's the tidbit. Liv Tyler was 17 years old on this movie. So the 17-year-old, she needed to have a chaperone. Right. Her chaperone is a co-worker who was her stepdad at the time.
01:07:36
Speaker
Wow. Coyote shivers. So Berco is the Tyler stepdad at the time. That is odd. So he's her chaperone on set. that is so Do you think that he got cast for that reason? I don't think so. I think that he it just had a career yeah he's had a career as a musician and as an actor, and he kind of does this for a lot of things.
01:08:01
Speaker
so I mean, I think maybe it was like a bonus, but like, I don't know exactly how that came to be, but that's wild. It's like yeah you're working with your stepdad but who's a vampire. I will say though, like for Rex Manning, I feel like the kind of redeeming quality is that he's not interested in Liv Tyler. He sees her as a kid and he is not interested in her, which is then, I think, ah confused by his interactions with Renee Zellweger, who I think is
01:08:39
Speaker
maybe the same age, I don't know, is she older? Maybe a little older? It seems a little bit like their relationship is like a little bit of an older sister, younger sister vibe. Yeah, okay. Because like she's doing her makeup and she's like... She certainly doesn't look considered older. Gassing her up, like she's not significantly older. Lucas, who is like our adult, aside from Jo, is only 21. Right. I think that, you know, Gina... She's gotta be with him at least.
01:09:06
Speaker
18, 19, you know, so like a little bit older, like Liv Tyler is the baby. Oh my God, like the way that he is is just like so gross. It's i was incredible. One thing that I thought was interesting that I found ah is a quote from Susan Lyle regarding the scene where Liv Tyler tries to like throw herself at Rex Manning um because she takes her clothes off and she's just in her underwear in that scene. And um so this is a quote from Susan Lyle that I found ah from an article on Dazed. So she says, quote, I read that one too. Yeah. From my costume standpoint, there was a very important piece of connective tissue that was not there. And that was between Renee Zellweger and Liv Tyler's characters.
01:09:53
Speaker
As they were plotting live Tyler's quest to lose her virginity to Rex Manning. Gina gave her her red bra. Gina has this red bra on and you kind of see it and then they switch it out. But you don't know that she's given it to her. Then when live Tyler takes her clothes off. There's the red underwear.
01:10:12
Speaker
to me that always drove me crazy because there's no explanation. So like in the movie they don't explain that that's what happens but I guess that that was like the character journey costume situation that they went on to get to that scene. So what what version did you watch was there because like I think I think I have a DVD of this movie. Okay. So I might If it exists, that scene might be in the version that I have. Interesting. I watched whatever the theatrical yeah release of the movie was, and that scene is not in there. And I might be full of shit because when I was watching it, I was reading the article while I was watching it. So like I was reading about this after that point in the movie. So my brain was absolutely rewritten. But it's like I did know that the red bra came from Gina because Liv Tyler takes it off and throws it back at her.
01:11:05
Speaker
but also there's a scene where they're upstairs and they're talking about it and like they're referring to it. So there are a couple indications throughout the movie that it is Gina's and that Gina is taking this step to be like, I'm going to prepare you the best way that you want to be prepared. And it's so funny. I don't think that's in the theatrical. Yeah. So the version that I have, it's referred to at least two or three times. And so I i love that because Dina is doing everything she can to make her friend, who feels maybe like a little bit of a younger sister, like feel like this is the time. Go for it. And, um, but then, yeah, when look, Tyler takes off her skirt and her sweater, she's wearing these like white undies and they know the very child. And it's, it's very much this child like understanding of being sexy.
01:11:56
Speaker
Yeah. And like, she just has this naivete and innocence. And then also I think in the same day's article, ah our designer talks about how Liv Tyler's character is a little bit like a scene kid at the time. And when I say scene kid, I'm not talking about like emo, I'm talking about like the club scene kid because she's a speed she's on speed so that she can do schoolwork the way that her parents are expecting her to.
01:12:22
Speaker
And so she has this like very innocent, but also towing the line of knowing where the innocent innocence ends and what people are wanting from her. um Because she's growing up and she recognizes that she's beautiful. And so she's wearing these like this you know cropped sweater and this tiny little skirt. And she has her name tag like tightened up to her neck. So it looks almost like the beginning of like a halter.
01:12:46
Speaker
Mm. Yeah. And like she's she's naive, but also like could go clubbing in her. Right. You know, right. I do appreciate that Rex is just like in. Yeah, you are. That's like his only that's like the only redeeming thing that he does in the movie. Yeah. And he does it. He does it in the most horrible way. The most disgusting way possible. So he's like basically never do this again. Yeah, it's like, let me traumatize you. And mission accomplished. I just like, I loved so much that this movie is about all of these people. And that it also shows us like culture of a workplace, which sometimes we're fortunate enough to go into at least once in our lives, where you're all very different people, but you also know a bunch about each other. And like you've worked together long enough that you are like super casual with each other. And it's not,
01:13:41
Speaker
what's expected from a professional, air quote, environment. right So everybody's kind of crazy. Like the things that happen in this movie are nuts. Like, I mean, AJ has an art station in the back that are long. Like with a clock full tubs of paint, like he has a studio back there. There's also long stretches.
01:14:04
Speaker
Absolutely no one is on the floor. working yeah And no one gives a single solitary fuck about the customers. And I just am like, I love it so much. What a fantasy. And I also am so bummed that the movie was ah censored the way that it was. Because you can tell that they're actually cussing multiple times. I censored to say bucket head and banana head. And there's, there's a costume magic moment that I did not, I'm not sure exactly what happened. And I only caught it really like thought about it for the first time on this watch, ok which is when Lucas leaves the back and he's not supposed to leave because Joe is so furious at him for gambling away $9,000 that he was like, I'm going to change the future of empire and I'm going to double this money. And he loses it on one spin. That's it the beginning of this movie. That is the opening scene. Joe is like, I'm going to kill you. And Joe is Lucas's adopted dad. Yeah. And so he like cares about him very much, but he's fucking furious with him and the whole movie is debating whether or not to report the robbery.
01:15:14
Speaker
and in the end does not. But um he's basically like, you do not leave this couch. And Lucas listens, and Lucas stays on the couch for most of the movie, but then he gets to this point where he has to move, and so he takes a cookie. And he goes onto the floor and he's like back in the world. He's just walking around this cushion for a little bit, but he immediately clocks. Warren is trying to steal some stuff. and So while talking to a bunch of characters, like roaming around, and just naturally carrying this cushion, he sits down by the staircase. And did you notice that he takes off his shoes and he puts on a new pair of shoes that are running shoes.
01:15:54
Speaker
And that's when he goes up to Warren and is like, Hey, what are you looking for? Because he's like, he knows he's got a magnet and he's demagnetizing some stuff. And so he's preparing himself while talking, I think to Mark, to chase this kid. So where did those shoes come from?
01:16:10
Speaker
Just, you know, how you have like a loose shoes at your place to work that anyone could throw on. There's some loose shoes under this bench, which is like, oh my God. I don't care that I never get an explanation. I love what that's indicating that these kids who are running this store are like, yeah, we get runners every once in a while and we can run. This is a protocol. So this is what we do. We're chill. We sit down. We get the pair that's in our size. We change out of our own shoes. And then we go run down the kid.
01:16:39
Speaker
and get the money back. I love that. I love that. This is such like a quiet little thing that like Lucas just, it's just having a conversation and he just sits down and he changes his shoes. And that's because he's like the poet philosopher, you know? And every time anybody talks to him, he's just like being Rafiki from the Lion King. Yeah, he's insufferable. And one point AJ is like, what happened to you, man?
01:17:06
Speaker
and Why are you like this? Like, why are you like this today? And Lucas is like, what's with today today? Yes. And you're like, I hate it. And I just like, I love so much culturally. The, the Clueless and this movie, Empire Records, are 1995 is when they come out and they are two different views of the 90s, but they also coexist totally. I think Empire Records is supposed to take place in like Delaware or something. Yeah. I always thought it was New Jersey because he goes to Atlantic City, but IMDb tells me that it's Delaware and and and who am I to disagree? I think that they mention Delaware at one point. All right. Yeah. yeah But like it's just like this little town,
01:17:52
Speaker
like where they are feels like little town. It doesn't feel like a giant urban area. It feels like a smaller- At one point, Jane, like Jane refers to it as middle America, which is like- Hold on. Look at a map, son. That's not the coast. These are coastal elites. Don't you know? This isn't Wisconsin. It's like central.
01:18:11
Speaker
But like the spirit of what she's saying is true. It feels like it's not a major urban center. Yeah, this is not quote an important yeah place where like things happen. Right. Yeah. And so it's just like really interesting to see the difference because like, yeah, these kids aren't super rich or super what well, some of them are like Corey is of money. She comes out of the massive mansion. She's going to Harvard. She's going to Harvard, no question. Like there is money, but there's something equalizing about all of these people and how they dress because nobody's trying to dress except for Rex Manning. Like they have a bunch of money, right? They're all trying to kind of be like low key. Like I don't care, even though they care very much and that like, you know, people want to be attractive or whatever, but they're kind of taking like shortcuts to do that. Like,
01:19:03
Speaker
um What do I mean by that? I guess I mean like... The shortcuts are really just heightening things about themselves that already exist instead of spending money and effort on super expensive clothing to create that language. And like being 18 is always a good place to start because your skin is glowing. Your hair is beautiful and shiny. like It's a good place. Your knees are in great shape. you got those nice You're making us sound real good.
01:19:36
Speaker
but there's just like this awesome, the same way that Gina and Deb are two different sides of the same coin. Clueless and Empire Records are two heightened versions of the same coin from the same time period. And I just, I love that I recognize both, but I recognize Clueless as growing up with like, ooh, that's Hollywood kind of. yeah And then,
01:20:03
Speaker
With Empire Records, I could recognize people's older siblings were like that. And I could recognize something in myself that was going to grow up to be like that. Yeah. But there were teenagers that I saw that looked like that. And I was like, this is so cool. It's much more understandable and recognizable to like our experience. Oh, yeah. Way more achievable. Than the fantasy of Beverly Hills.
01:20:29
Speaker
Might as well have been on the moon even though it's like one hundred percent in the same state that we were growing up in. But it's like six, seven hundred miles away. Like it's it's far. It's a long way. More. It's a long way.
Nostalgia for Record Store Culture
01:20:42
Speaker
And so ah culturally, very long way. So yeah, Empire, just like that feels like a time that I remember aspiring to because that's what felt cool. Like working in a record store felt like the coolest thing that you could do.
01:20:58
Speaker
And I never did. Nope, me neither. I was not cool enough. cool enough. I never even tried. But I would have come in and been like, the New Age section, please. I'd like to talk about the Chieftains live album from 1977. And they'd be like, okay, you gotta go. I'm here for the new Britney Spears record. Also by the time that we were teens, we had Borders.
01:21:24
Speaker
like warehouse had already kind of taken a lot of hits. Tower was the last to hold on, I think, in like my area. and Then it just minimized to like small record stores that like were very niche. They like blew up to like Circuit City and that kind of thing and then just collapsed. like co collapse Except for the ones that could survive. I'm glad that they did.
Modern-Day Empire Records
01:21:48
Speaker
because like yeah what a cool thing and it's different now for kids but like I really it would be kind of cool if there was like, I don't want to remake of empire records, but if there was something in the spirit of empire records made now, where it's like, you know, the teens of now, the youth of now working in some sort of like sub-culture like fun kind of thing, what would that look like? And how would folks be dressing? Some of it would be a little bit of 90s comeback, which would be trippy. And everybody would be really clean. Unlike the original, like Eddie's hair. There'd be so much skincare happening. like somebody went through Eddie, the pizza guy's hair with a comb and ratted that business up. Maybe he did it himself, but it was like, you guys look like you just like rolled out of bed and that's amazing.
01:22:38
Speaker
Oh, man. Wow. Double feature.
Cultural Impact of Real-World Movies
01:22:41
Speaker
We did it. Double feature. And it's it's funny how it's like, yeah, we're talking about costume, but we're not picking apart the costume exactly the way that we might with other things because we're talking about the cultural relevance and man yeah. And I think that that's why these are two good movies to talk about because they purports to take place in the real world yeah with regular people, ah regular. um But so it's It's less, you know, it's less like costumey than something like last week, Hook, and more about reflecting and imagining the experience of people watching and making something that is recognizable and aspirational. And recognizing how they affected things as well. Yeah. Because like who has had an impact on the 90s, like the later end of the 90s? You could see it. Yeah, I did. You could see it.
01:23:33
Speaker
Please join us next week for our next movie that made millennials.
Engaging Millennials and Next Episode Preview
01:23:37
Speaker
And yeah, okay, when we talk about millennials, we might be mostly talking about just us. I mean, guess what? We are the executive producers of this podcast. We get to make some decisions, and we just want you to come along with us for the ride. And some of these things might be reflective of your millennial experience, and we hope so, because we would love to hear your opinions. But next week,
01:23:59
Speaker
or, you know, our next episode is The Mummy with Bradley Fraser and Rachel Weiss. And we are har thrilled to be able to talk about this.
01:24:11
Speaker
Another movie that I could talk about without even rewatching it because I've seen it so many times. So many times. It's such an easy rewatch and it's like there's there's real world stuff to talk about to acknowledge but there's also just like the fantasy of it all. Absolutely. Thank you Brendan Fraser for your service.
01:24:31
Speaker
And for being just an absolute delight. And Rachel Vice, Ms. Ma'am. Gorgeous on gorgeous on gorgeous. And we're looking forward to it. So please join us and thank you for listening to this episode. Yeah, thanks for joining us this time. Hope to see you next time.