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Batman (1989) & The Dark Knight- I Can Fix Him
20 Plays1 month ago
It's dark, it's moody, there are suits everywhere, it must be Batman. This episode we delve into 2 versions of Gotham that reflect the times they were made in. And the gangs all here, most notably The Joker. But he's got enough style to fill a whole gang. The costumes in both movies help delicately walk the line between the real world and cartoon world.
Season 2 is rapidly coming to an end! You either die a hero, or you pod long enough to become the villain.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096895/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_batman%25201989
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0468569/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_7_nm_1_in_0_q_dark%2520knigh
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
Impressions of 'Batman 1989'
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello and welcome back to an episode with your favorite neighborhood troublemakers who like to talk about nerdy costumes. I'm Ariel. I'm Melinda. And we are here to talk to you about some Batmanses. And first, we're going to be talking about Batman 1989, which is a very, um how to describe it, sumptuous, bright,
00:00:48
Speaker
um Glittery, just rainbow constellation of visual feast for the soul.
Gothic Style and Costume Design in Batman 1989
00:01:00
Speaker
Am I being sarcastic? Yeah. I mean, it is... Watch it at night. That's my recommendation. Watch it at night when you don't have... Oh my God. Don't watch it at... Yeah. Not at night in the morning. Not at night in the morning when the sun is streaming through your windows because you will not be able to see about 900% of what is on screen and your brain might perchance go on walkabout. I'm only speaking a little bit from experience.
00:01:33
Speaker
This movie I have seen multiple times in my life. um I obviously noticed it as a costuming movie because it's, of course, of it's this is like the logical heir to the TV show Batman, where it's just like a little bit over the top. It feels more closely related to like cartoon world. Yes, yes, it does. Yeah.
00:01:59
Speaker
and Thank you, Tim Burton, for that. It's like the goth child, the 80s goth child of the 60s baby boomer Batman. It's smoking a cigarette, it's got a whiskey in one hand, and it's just like got its feet up and it's gone. The costume design is by Bob Ringwood. and Bob Ringwood did quite a few things that I that I am familiar with. Yeah, with a lot of Batman. Yeah, a lot of Batman's is like, will I say Batman? Maybe Batman mobile. I think it's like the plural of Batman is bats man. It's like cold as bats. man I like that. and There's a lot of alien Batman. There's a lot of um
00:02:49
Speaker
90s superhero stuff before superhero stuff like took off and kind of evolved from being cartoonish. So there's like Demolition Man, The Shadow, Batman Forever, Batman and Robin. um We have some aliens.
00:03:07
Speaker
AI, one of the most heartbreaking things I've ever done to myself.
Uncredited Contributions and Unique Designs
00:03:12
Speaker
My eyeballs. That's a movie that exists that you could watch if you must. If you want to break your heart, dive on in. But yeah, there's a lot here. There's Dune, 1984, which was pretty famous. Yeah, the David Lynch Dune.
00:03:31
Speaker
Mm-hmm. There's Excalibur, which is sometimes some people credit that as like their first like big, you know, sword and sorcerer kind of like fantasy. So this is a pretty, pretty solid CV. I'll give it to him. ah And you can see a lot of different skills at play, I think, in this movie. Yeah, with costuming yeah and uncredited.
00:03:57
Speaker
is listed Tony Dunsterville and this is according to IMDB so I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. There's also a note in the credits that Kim Basinger's costumes were provided by Linda Henriksen, which is very like old school Hollywood, I feel like, to have a separate designer for um a specific character. like You don't see that very often ah anymore, certainly. But even back in the 80s, you didn't see that super often.
00:04:31
Speaker
So that was kind of an interesting little
Tony Dunsterville's Role in Batman's Suit Design?
00:04:34
Speaker
tidbit. This person, Tony, ah so sorry, Dunsterville is on his IMDB is listed as like a creature designer for Jim Henson's creature shop, a special effects supervisor, technician, effects engineer, trainee pyrotechnician. um So somebody who's like a fabricator who does a lot of really cool stuff and like animatronics and makes you wonder if he was involved in the Batman suit perhaps.
Michael Keaton's Batman Costume Challenges
00:05:02
Speaker
so Yeah, like which dramatic, dramatic emptiness of sound. Let's talk about that suit. I feel so much for Mr. Keaton, Mr. Michael Keaton, who is
00:05:16
Speaker
a great Batman, I think. like he yeah He was like a serious Batman before we really realized that we were getting like a serious Batman. like He feels like he's act acting Bruce Wayne as like a normal person, um as as normal as you could get in Gotham and being like a gajillionaire cop in the night. um and Having like literal like cartoon cartoon villains that you're contending with.
00:05:42
Speaker
I can check Nicole's one in this movie. It's out of control. But that suit, I know that each each Batman actor, it's pretty famous. Each Batman actor has their personal relationship with that suit, like yeah their own suits, because the design, of course, has like evolved. um If we like look backward into that 60s show, that was, like I'm sure, a relatively comfortable costume because it's like,
00:06:10
Speaker
Totally movable it is not at all what we're looking at here which looks like a tomb of rubber that you cannot move big massive pieces of it on your body huge and and.
00:06:26
Speaker
really great work, cool work. But I yeah think kind of cool work. ah This is an example for me, and this is not speaking against the designer or anybody who like fabricated this. But this feels like a perfect example of a costume that is not taking into account the stunts that need to be done or how much movement that character has to be doing.
Impact of Costume Design on Action Scenes
00:06:51
Speaker
um Yeah. Because like poor guy, like that cow is like one solid piece from like, would you say like shoulder blades? Like at least the top of his shoulder blades, like all the way over his head to like down. Yeah.
00:07:08
Speaker
like a collarbone. It's a solid unit, like a bucket on his head. Like there's many times, I feel like he's got like Isis rods in the wings too, so it feels like a little bit of a risk. Yeah, he totally does. Like it just, it feels like it's a very, I don't know, a piece that just like, you were working with the knowledge you had because you weren't doing action um superhero comics the way that we're seeing action superhero comics now, where we're actually implementing straight up armor, like everything there in this movie is very much based on like comic and trying to draw you into something that is drawn without necessarily thinking about, you know, how does it truly need to function on a person's body? I found myself like looking at the movements that Batman like does in this movie and feeling like he's very statuesque even in his movement because I don't think that he could do like he couldn't be an agile
00:08:14
Speaker
fighter that was not possible physically and so there's a lot more like more static like purposeful kind of like holding of a pose for a second or like going up into the air in like a very like choreographed way that I think maybe could have been inspired by well we can't do anything else because he can't do yeah anything else. it's It's that realization of this is as far as we can go. And it's also like maybe a little bit limited by the set. You know, like all of those things, limited is maybe not the word I want to choose, but it's dictated by the environment. And so there was a scene pretty early on where
00:08:51
Speaker
Michael Keaton as Batman has to jump and then like his grappling hook like he's repelled like he's jumping into the sky essentially and you could just see the work that the actor had to put whoever is wearing the suit in that moment I don't know if there's like a stunt person wearing it or if it is just Michael Keaton but there's like an extra just like a little extra oh jump, you know, like a jump, another jump that like just yeah made me think of like a little kid going like, and this is how I propelled myself into the sky. And I was like, yeah, Batman, you go, officer. The overall costuming of this movie, I was digging because it makes you feel kind of lost in a way. Yeah.
00:09:39
Speaker
that also establishes you in a world that's not your world but looks like your world. And um it felt like a logical collision of like the traditional Batman comics at the time and like what they were trying to do artistically and modernizing it.
Visual Aesthetics of Gotham
00:09:58
Speaker
We're seeing the, sorry, my brain is just such a slow, fat hamster chewing on a cinnamon roll on a wheel right now, and that little guy is trying so hard. But there's this like flashback to Bruce's origin story. yeah yeah or No, it's not it's not Bruce's origin story. It's a reflection of that, isn't it? Because like there's a- Well, we the opening scene is like a fakeout. The opening scene is a fakeout where you think that it's going to be that and that it's not, and then like halfway through the movie, we see the actual yeah scene So be the fakeout is very interesting because it is happening modern, but it's this a successful fakeout because you have all of these people at different class levels. And there's like some people dressed in the 20s, some people dressed in the 40s, some people looking like they're from the 70s and a bunch of people dress like they're from the 80s, but they feel like they're stacked a little bit further in the background.
00:10:54
Speaker
And so there's like regular baseball caps, jackets, and then there's like in there, these like caricaturized people that look like ah if you were in a stage production and you had a double show day, and instead of taking off your costume, you went outside to go have a smoke in it, and it was everybody in the cast, and then there's just regular people walking on the street around you. And it's like, It just feels so like a cartoon leaking into the world or like a comic like leaking into the world.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah, there's like so much like film noir imagery. There's so much like I kept thinking about um metropolis when I was watching this with these huge like cavernous spaces and these giant like skyscrapers. But yeah, there's like, there's a there's like, I don't think I've ever seen this many fedoras in one movie. No. Because there are these like, there are these great like, group pieces that don't just um tie you to like the 80s. They are like reporters and all the reporters are dressed like they're from the 40s. And then you're in the news office and everybody in the news office is in that same language. And then you go to a dinner party or like not a dinner party but like an event.
00:12:20
Speaker
where Vicki Vail is meeting Bruce Wayne. And and it so eighty s like it's All of these things are
80s Evening Wear and Cultural Influences
00:12:28
Speaker
are like living together, but like if you work here, your uniform is 1945. I'm a young chipper holder. Got my little press pass in the band on my hat. And I'm going to take notes, sir. I just like, there was an outfit, which I can't remember his name right now, but Vicki Vale's partner in the- Oh, yeah. Knox. Yeah. When they're talking about, oh, well, there's this event, but I don't have any tickets. And then she pulls out two tickets from a bag. His outfit made my eyes happy because it's basically like different
00:13:03
Speaker
complementary shades of like a rustish like reddish color like in that family. So they're like stripes on the shirt and like big circles on the tie and like super textured coat. Yeah, like a woven pattern into the wool coat. Jacket rather. Yeah. And it's like I just that that's sometimes in theater you're kind of like limited to how you can go with your designs right because you can't you don't have the budget especially in community theater to like order fabrics that you've designed you're you're relying on things that you can rent things that you can thrift things that you can pull from people's wardrobes like whatever whatever and so you you have this like thing that you're kind of
00:13:45
Speaker
able to do on some of your shows, which is a money saver, which is just throw together a bunch of patterns and like lock things into a color palette. And that's what that looked like. It looked like he could have been like, in the music man. There was a few people that had that and I was just like, into it. I liked it. I was like, I'm, I'm here for like, I personally, just enjoy like pattern mixing. I also enjoy like a very intentionally tight color palette, so I'm just like, yes get it, like do it, let's have fun. But no, like the when they go to the fancy party and everyone's in tuxedos and all the women are just in like incredible evening wear gowns and like
00:14:28
Speaker
massive chunky 80s jewelry and like the hair and the makeup. And it was just like, wow, we do not do this anymore. Nobody does this anymore anymore. And also we have opened up what it means to have different, um, this is going to sound so prudish, I guess in like old fashioned, but we've opened up like what appropriate attire means. yeah And so like by appropriate I don't mean like modest fashion or anything like that. I just mean like what is situational.
00:15:00
Speaker
Would that make sense? Situationally appropriate? The rules that we're seeing on display, we're like, wow. And I'm wearing like you know a t-shirt and like a kaffir, a hat, and a blanket you know like over you know a dress. And I'm just sitting. This couchwear is what this is. Couchwear with a little dose of protest and like you know from the river to the sea. And like it's just it's not at all.
00:15:29
Speaker
a statement jewelry appropriate moment. And I think to like for some people, every moment is a statement jewelry appropriate moment. And a lot of people that we know, this is true. Theatrical people, artsy fartsy people. But yeah, I'm not going any galas. If I did, I wouldn't know what to wear. I would like I would come up with something, but I don't even know that it would be considered appropriate because I would definitely be like, a well, it looks good to me kind of person.
00:15:59
Speaker
It was really funny actually because um i have been specifically looking at nineteen eighties evening where of recent weeks for a project that i'm working on and so i was like wow who knew that batman was going to be such an incredible resource for me to. yeah great Inspiration is like it's so but it was so funny because um the stuff that I was just happened to be reading about before watching this movie was talking about the resurgence of particularly evening where in this decade and tying it to the presidency of Ronald Reagan and like assuring back in.
00:16:38
Speaker
that kind of mentality. and One of the explanations that I saw for it was just that you know he's a Hollywood actor. He has like this background of image, understanding visual, understanding how he is like presenting himself and what people see and what they take from that. and that you know The man thought that he looked good in a tuxedo, so he wore them a lot as president. and it affected everybody and what everybody thought was a appropriate. like The increase in like prevalence of tuxedo black tie events and like the corresponding clothing for women, you can tie it to that man. So yeah. And like the Tim Burton of it all also like really looks like kind of an artsy fartsy guy looking at like the yuppie-ness of the 80s and like the greed is good of Wall Street kind of applying that into because we've seen people who are just wearing like regular clothes as well as like people who look like they walked out of like a 1920s.
00:17:47
Speaker
a show, there's a disparity and a massive difference between like the higher up you go in the buildings, the more there's a ah difference where there's the white tie up there and there's a Batman suit down below.
Tim Burton's Impact on Batman Franchise
00:18:03
Speaker
murder And there's also our our dear friend, ah the Joker. Oh, the Joker. Oh, my God, the Joker. There's just like such a because Tim Burton is a very highly stylized artist, obviously, like everything he makes, you look at it and go, boom, that's a Tim Burton. And this one.
00:18:23
Speaker
100% in that realm. And this really feels like a logical growing, not pain, but you know what I mean when I say that. like it's a It's a growth journey from yeah the 60s and the comics. A stepping stone. It's a stepping stone. Thank you. What a poet It's a stepping stone before we get to our more modern Batman, which is also related to um the artists that I used to be able to pull from my head. Is it Frank Miller? Yeah, I think it's Frank Miller that influenced the Dark Knight as we know the Dark Knight now, where everything was like
00:19:02
Speaker
just much more no noir and like yeah harder. And so there's this cartooniness in the tim in this Tim Burton version that is really embraced. like We start with the Batman suit, right? But because it's black and it's meant to fade into the night, except for some of his weaponry, if we will,
00:19:25
Speaker
where in the first scene we see him and he's throwing a little rope around like a bad guy's ankles and there's a shiny bat. It's like a mirrored mirrored bat.
00:19:38
Speaker
and i i'm like The man understands branding. 100 percent on the marketing. But it's like with this thing it's like you want to disappear with the suit, but you want your weapons to be visible. Love it. Love it and have them be mirrored even better. Interesting choice.
00:19:54
Speaker
Just a little disco, if you will. And like, the suit is cartoonish because it's such kind of like big shapes. Like there's no, yeah there's there's not like a million joints, you know, that add to flexibility, which would be like a a practical need, but also a design.
Joker's Theatrical Style and Costume
00:20:14
Speaker
um It's all very um block.
00:20:18
Speaker
Shapes when you like look at the construction of the suit we meet the Joker and boy howdy They did not pull back on this vaudevillian circus leader ringleader not even not what they have I feel like I could feel the makeup that Jack Nicholson is caked in. Oh my goodness. The oiliness I can only imagine and like not touching your face with any of the costume pieces because it would absolutely translate. Like I have to imagine that that man had to be in a bib every time.
00:20:54
Speaker
like I hope the camera was not directly on him. Because we were immediately told that like every time is happening at one time, like in the first couple of scenes, our brains just accept everything that's being put in front of us because the world is so fluid. And so like seeing the duker, of course it's jarring, of course it's like, whoa, bright, saturated colors. yeah But it's also like so over the top that you're like,
00:21:23
Speaker
Yeah, why not? Yeah, like it works. I appreciate that when we see him before his transformation, like he's already on ah a slightly different level than yeah even like the other gangsters. like The first suit that we see him in is this like wonderful, deep blue, and its and he's very meticulous with all of his accessories are perfect. I like that look.
00:21:52
Speaker
Yeah, oh, it was great. And then like we we see him in like a purple, um like it was a purple wool with like a built-in like subtle stripe, but it's not the purple. like It's a separate purple that's like a little bit more subdued. Work in its way, like an eggplant. Yeah, ah it's like the seed of the ostentatiousness is in him already.
00:22:16
Speaker
And it just was, you dip somebody in a vat of acid and it'll just go crazy on them. And they will develop a love of satin shirts, clearly. Just love that. That should be put into the lore of it all. It's like, I was dipped into acid and I came out and I just became Satin Man.
00:22:42
Speaker
There is a 30s comic book out there called Satin Man, I believe that. There are so many weird comic book characters from those early days when people were like, anything can be anything. Yeah, anything could be a weapon, anything could be a costume, anything could be a disguise, it could all work. Satin, you could hide behind it.
00:23:04
Speaker
this just This world is like, it was hard for me to stay focused and that's you know viewer
Tangible Set Design vs. Modern CGI
00:23:11
Speaker
problem. Also, the fact that I was watching this at 9.30 in the morning. um so It was like hard to see and when it was hard to see, like i I can only bump up the brightness on my screen so much. But like yeah seeing the Joker and his henchmen and having them all just be so heightened in this world of like some boring yuppies, some like regular work work folks, workwear, streetwear, and then like some other heightened like theatrical stuff amongst it. Because this is on like a very specific set too, this movie feels very theatrical. like Everything about it feels really like theater, but on a big scale. and I enjoyed that it all worked together to create that. like It didn't feel like a lack,
00:24:01
Speaker
It felt like it was all working together to create this weird snow globe nightmare. Yeah, like i I appreciate that all of that stuff really existed. Someone made all of those things because you know we live now in this like CGI blah blah blah world with all of these characters like it's it's just a totally different experience watching a superhero movie that's made after like two thousand and ten.
00:24:37
Speaker
yeah It's just different. It's just a different thing. And i I, I mean, I think because obviously we both have a background in theater, like you don't have CGI in theater, anything that you want on your stage has to be there in some like way, shape or form, even if it's like a projection. So, I mean, I love having the real stuff. Like I, I I can connect to it so much easier than a totally like CGI environment with CGI i suits and blah, blah, blah. like It just doesn't do much for me. it's like I mean, there there is something to be said about those things, right? Because there is still the design, there is still those things. But yeah, it is it's a different
00:25:22
Speaker
expectation and a different thing that is being fed and so like it's interesting watching the evolution of like what audiences and what artists were hungry for to make from these source materials um which are very cartoonish by nature because they are comics um and how they have evolved from being like really color-blocked, bright, doop-a-doop-a-doop-a-doop, like, derpy Batman. Like, go-go dancing Batman.
Batman: From Light-hearted to Serious
00:25:58
Speaker
Yeah, go-go dancing Batman um to being, if we're to, because like the comics were existing. I don't know the comics very well. I just know like the the the TV film
00:26:10
Speaker
Yeah, I'm not a comics better person. Yeah, it feels like yeah, we went from the 60s to now Batman's a cop. I think he was kind of a cop. He was always a cop. it like He was like, he was like your neighborhood officer who was like, a community service officer, I feel like in the 60s where he was like, Come on now, give me the bomb. And and now he's like,
00:26:37
Speaker
No, you've violated this penal code and you're going to prison. like There's just a difference here. It was interesting because I think this is the first time I've actually watched the Tim Burton movie, um probably since I was a teenager and probably at least since you know comic book friends started having the conversations about like Batman is a cop and being like, this is you know like what he is. like He's a billionaire and he could He could probably like feed money, you know, into like fixing this city, like with the amount of money and influence that he has, but instead he chooses to continue to dress up like a police officer. And all of his henchmen are police officers. He could eliminate crime by not making anyone desperate enough to even need to turn to it in the first place with all of his money. Yeah, he could but he put in all these different
00:27:34
Speaker
social services, like educational systems, all these things. like The hospitals that we see in these movies, like he could he could be revitalizing the economy of this city by himself.
Funny Anecdotes from Batman's Design
00:27:46
Speaker
and um He becomes like you know in different versions like a weapons manufacturer and all these other things instead. and so it's like so okay This time watching it, I was like, Michael Keaton.
00:27:59
Speaker
You're a wonderful Batman. There's something a little bit tired about your Batman that I kind of enjoy because like it's not it's not the the exhaustion of like overcommitment to the bit. It's exhaustion like, I'm sick of this shit.
00:28:16
Speaker
fine which like when we need a little bit of that we need it and and then adding the freaking suit to that just kind of makes him like a little bit like no batman one thing that i thought was who can lift your arm higher than your shoulder because your suit won't allow for it. I thought it was really, really funny. I read that the original design of the Batmobile didn't take into account the added height that the ears would have and so the original roof
00:28:54
Speaker
of the Batmobile was too low to accommodate his bat ears. And so they had to make a special, like, headpiece just for when he's in the car that has shorter ears. And I thought that that was oh delightful. And that's also just, like, so a perfect representation of this iteration of the Batman. Because, like, he just... Poor guy. Poor guy.
00:29:24
Speaker
I loved the design of this movie. It felt very loose, but in a way that was very tight for its world.
Nostalgia's Influence on Batman 1989
00:29:35
Speaker
Yeah, it was like confident. It knew what it wanted to be. It was very confident. Yeah. And the comic book characters were so elevated beyond everybody else that there's a massive jump. But because it's a Tim Burton, you go for that ride. Oh, yeah.
00:29:54
Speaker
If nobody's ever seen it, you know, if anybody listening has not seen it, because of course many people have seen it. um I do recommend it for for looking at the costumes and also just like an experience, but I was very much struggling to focus today. you know I don't really have like i don't have an emotional connection to this movie. I don't think I had ever seen it until maybe like two years ago.
00:30:23
Speaker
so i and i didn't really um It didn't really get carried away by the story of it either time. So I don't know. Like I don't think that it's a bad movie at all, but it just there was something that just wasn't quite like doesn't quite resonate for me. I don't know exactly what it is. And I don't know if like nostalgia would have helped. I don't know. I think nostalgia definitely helps. um But I also think that like if you are like I'm in the mood to watch
00:30:57
Speaker
a Tim Burton Batman movie. You kind of need to have that with you because it's also in 1989. There have been amazing movies throughout any decades since cinema has existed, but storytelling has changed for its intended audiences as you know the as time moves on, tastes evolve. and so This one just felt like the storytelling was not at a clip.
00:31:26
Speaker
Yeah, it was not a clip that could keep me engaged. And I don't think of myself usually as being a goldfish in a little bowl. I am my attention. Yeah, I want you to hold my hand on this one because I can't. And so I think I think I'm in a discovery period of not having fully acknowledged yet that my attention span is fucked. But this one is one of those learning experiences where I was like,
00:31:50
Speaker
It's hard. It's it's kind of a brutal um realization for that. So that's fun.
Joker's Vibrant Costumes in Gotham
00:31:58
Speaker
There was one thing that I was actually like really struck by in this movie just to because I was just like, oh, okay. Because you know we have the Joker and he's in this like saturated,
00:32:13
Speaker
like wonderfully, theatrically, cartoony, vaudevillian world. Like more Ninja Turtle vaudeville. Like color palette. And then everyone else is very dark or like earthy or like in all white or like whatever, but it's very tight, it's very controlled. And then there's like that scene where Vicky gets stood up in the restaurant by Batman and she is wearing a turquoise dress. And it's the first time that we've seen her wear color and it really stood out to me. Yeah, cause she's wearing like earth tones and then like white yeah for so much of this movie. And so yeah, for her to be, I think it was such a great choice for them to have her kind of meet the joker's level yeah a little bit because like yeah she's gifted. It makes the whole scene like work pretty well. Like your eyes are able to travel without like,
00:33:09
Speaker
feeling like they're being burnt or going like, what? Because yeah, she's she's got this gift that's delivered to her at the table. It's got colorful packaging. She opens it up. There's like written in crayon, put this on right now. And it's a, is it like a bright orange? Like yeah. Yeah. It's like orange or like Reddit. Yeah. Yeah. Or like both even. And it's, um, so it compliments the dress that she's wearing, which I kind of love the idea that the joker's like,
00:33:34
Speaker
keep an eye on her and see what outfit she evening and then i got to come right off yes i've got some like cool colors and some warm ones let's go like the compliments and you buy like a corsage for your prom date based on like yeah color her dress is going to be that's exactly what it felt like it felt like she unveiled this like corsage but it's the joker's corsage which means don't ingest this poison Keep an eye on
00:34:04
Speaker
meet him there a little bit. yeah yeah And so it's like it's it's it's a good choice to have made. I love it. Also, mad respect because she's in that dress for a long time because it it like ends with like her and Batman like escaping and like running through an alley. And we see her, they they get in the Batmobile and they like drive and they have to abandon the car at some point.
00:34:27
Speaker
You see her throw her shoes out of the car because she's wearing high heels, and then you see her running down that alley in bare feet. and Then- This is Vicky Vale. like Good for you, girl. Keep it so real in that moment. and I love the detail that also like when she wakes up at her apartment the next day and she's like still in the dress, you can see the bottom of her feet and they are black because she's been running through a dirty alley all night.
00:34:56
Speaker
And I was just like, oh, perfect. Love that that was in there. Whoever that came from, because like Tim Burton, total like stenographer, if you will, like just has such like an overarching view that affects all the different design camps. But I just love the idea that somebody like in makeup is like, can we can we put some put some stuff on our feet? Because if Gotham is as bad as you've been making us make it look, let's do it. like filth and motor oil and rotting food in that alley. Yikes. and ah what a What a way to wake up. Just like, oh my God, this like horrible date that I didn't ask for gave me this gas mask corsage and then Batman picked me up and I ran.
00:35:43
Speaker
crazy. What a night. It's like, I would believe it was all a crazy dream, except my feet.
Vicki Vale's Wardrobe and Character Symbolism
00:35:49
Speaker
Except for my feet. And my shoes are gone. My beautiful, sensible pumps have been thrown from a Batmobile. Sensible pumps. Yeah, so it's like, I was at in love with with with this movie. Yeah, the way that like i I've definitely enjoyed other Tim Burton things more. i'vevoed I've enjoyed some of this costume designer's work more and other things. um But what a nice like sweet step of a Batman to get to.
00:36:26
Speaker
our next movie is also a batsman. And would you like to say a few words about Mr. Bats? Sure. Let me turn the page here metaphorically and physically. Do you like that I was like, we're done. We can't talk about it. We got it. We did it.
00:36:47
Speaker
Put a stamp on that. We are ready to move forward. Yes. the The second film that we are covering today is the Christopher Nolan 2008 Dark Knight, which is the second in his Batman trilogy that I feel like if if the 89 Batman like set the tone for everything going forward. the Christopher Nolan taking up the helm of Batman was like another turning point in the evolution of that character and the evolution of all superhero movies, like huge turning point. Yes, Batman Begins changed how we made superhero movies. Yeah.
00:37:32
Speaker
and They needed to become goth as hell, goth and emotional and great and serious and why so serious and all of those things. The the grit of the 89 one is Vicki Vale's feet. yeah yeah Christopher Nolan saw that and he was like, let's make it all the bottom of her feet.
00:37:55
Speaker
yeah But God, yeah, the the 2008 Dark Knight. Yeah, this is one that I definitely saw in the theater when it came out. And I remember thinking that it was so totally awesome, dude, just like, wow, so freaking cool. um And yet I don't think I've seen it since like 2010. I think I've seen this movie maybe twice, maybe. I don't know that I have seen it at all recently. I haven't seen it very recently at all.
Christopher Nolan's Influence on Superhero Movies
00:38:25
Speaker
It's been at least a decade.
00:38:27
Speaker
And it's like Batman 89, I know that I saw it as a kid, but Batman Forever and Batman Returns were ones that I had seen probably more, but they couldn't exist as what they were without 89, right? Absolutely, yeah. But like Dark Knight, I remember, I think I watched probably Batman Begins like a couple more times, but when Dark Knight came out, Batman Begins had already seduced.
00:38:51
Speaker
Yes. A new audience. And it was like, okay, so this Batman is, I'm going to bring back the word that I used in our first season, probably every single episode, utilitarian. And boy, is he utilitarian as fuck. He is like militia with a budget where- Yeah, he's fully militarized.
00:39:15
Speaker
fully Miller's rise he's like Tony Stark but of Gotham because he has like his his company is working in all these different things that are like and he's putting that knowledge into everything that he has like Lucius Fox is ah Morgan Freeman is like building all this stuff for him that is kind of like knowledge that's being gleaned from like militarized stuff. Right. So this is military Batman. This is a literal military contract technology yeah that's being like covertly repurposed in the like bat workshop. Yeah. And also kind of like being being tested in the bat workshop so that it can be like altered to not look like Batman ah trinkets and then released elsewhere. So these costumes also totally totally I think influenced ah Marvel's like Avengers and stuff with like the flavor because this Batman looked without you going into the cop of it all at this second he looked like badass in the way that you're looking at like a wrestler and going this guy looks like he's ready to fight and like have the tools to do it and you're not
00:40:34
Speaker
like quite thinking about the messaging of the character on the whole. You're just looking at the flashy parts. that And so, whole and not thinking about it and not thinking at all about how like, Oh no, the implications. Oh no. And so it's like, he is this one man army with like the cops who are like kind of bumbling, like 1970s cops who like haven't ah really received like a big budget or overhaul in their departments or anything. So they're like kind of lacking in the ability to respond to what's happening in the city. So they like bump up.
00:41:15
Speaker
this Batman to like this crazy place. Like the cops in this movie do have a lot of vehicle equipment that looked very militarized to me. So it was sort of like the change between the 89 and 2008 of like how we depict cops who are actual cops. It's crazy. Like it it's so post 9-11, like so crazy. It's so post 9-11 and it's totally affected yeah by by being post 9-11 in that that attitude. And it's also so prescient of like where we were headed. Is prescient the right word that I'm looking for? it Whatever. It was so aware of where we were headed. And like it it was just like, everything's going to get more militarized. like You thought ninja as an aesthetic was cool. Well, we're going to bump it up to like
00:42:13
Speaker
being like desert storm of the night, if you will. Like it's just like so crazy how, and like when I say that the cops of this city like aren't equipped to respond to like the the criminal elements, like yes, they do have militarized vehicles. They do have these things, but somehow we have to bump up Batman.
00:42:32
Speaker
So that he has to be even smarter, even better. Because like in the 89 one, theyre they're essentially like the stormtroopers in Star Wars, which with but the stormtroopers, which is all of them, who never hit anything, even though
Corruption and Complexity in Dark Knight
00:42:48
Speaker
they fire. because and that even becomes like a canon bit in that franchise. That's what those cops are like. and Then here, it's just like the the bar is at bad, and then Batman just goes beyond that with like the militarization of it. There's this whole thing going on with corruption, and that's a huge theme in this movie. and so it's like go
00:43:14
Speaker
There's like, there there has to be this feeling of like, you don't know who to trust, which cop is good, which cop is bad. Like, that's like a huge element to like what's happening here, which is like, i oh my god. I forgot these elements of the plot because it's been so long. So when Gary Oldman is like, talking to Harvey Dent and Harvey Dent's like, yeah, I've investigated every single officer in your like, you know, little underground cabal with like through I.A. And um he's like, well, big deal. And it's like, what?
00:43:50
Speaker
every one Why come we're blowing that over and like like your house with your eyes just like some how many times in this movie does some cop like turn around with like tears forming in their eyes and be like I didn't have a choice. I didn't know what they were going to do. And it's just like, oh my God, just constantly. And so there's this, this world feels very modern. It feels very recognizable to me. The suits, again, suits, but like even in the 89 one, the suits are well-fitting for a lot of people, but they're not tailored.
00:44:27
Speaker
No, it's a different aesthetic back then. These suits are in a very slim cut aesthetic. So there's a scene where, oh my God, I wrote it down. Why would I ever refer to my notes, Melinda? God. There's the meeting that Joker walks into between the Moroni, all these different like crime bosses, you know whatever. Right, yeah. kind Like the Maroney side of the table and then there's gamble side of the table and there's like a an aesthetic divide between these cards, which is pretty amazing so like the Maroney side is all kind of like earthy with like some greens and a little bit of blues in there and then the other side has gamble and there's these like
00:45:11
Speaker
tight, structured suits that are away from the 80s and 70s, which the other side feels more closely related to. And they've got like saturated colors in their ties, saturated colors in their pocket squares, black suits, crisp.
00:45:28
Speaker
white shirts. And so it's like, there's just this like, these, these like, divisions of aesthetics that are fantastic. And like dressing up every one of these people must have been fun because there are little details going on with every single person. And i like, you didn't know there were so many ways to wear a suit. Like you had no idea.
00:45:52
Speaker
Well, it's also just great the idea that's being introduced here without it being cartoony that different crime elements have a dress code. And that if you're dressing too far to this side, who do you think you are? Who do you think you belong to? And so it's like the Joker walks into this and he's got his purple like coat, which is like a frock coat. He's got a full on frock coat. A full on frock coat with tails and like the most cartoonish thing about it really is the lapels just because they're more exaggerated shape. But like if you
00:46:30
Speaker
if you took him out of this and away from the Joker face makeup, center but if you had that coat and that style of coat and you put it into a Jane Austen, it wouldn't be that far out, you know, which is pretty crazy. I guess that's right. Like it gets close.
Joker's Costume as a Reflection of Anarchy
00:46:47
Speaker
That's a That's a, that's a frog wearing dandy. And so he's just got this like a tailed frog coat. And I just like love that. And But it's not so, like even the purple that he's in, it's the Joker purple, but i they it's like they knocked it down it's a little bit. It's like eggplant. Yeah. Yeah. So that it's not so much a departure from the world around him, but it's still very costumey and very much a declaration that he does not follow the rules that everybody else is following. Even the makeup, right? Like I think with this is what I remember. I mean, like Heath Ledger was,
00:47:26
Speaker
so perfectly cast for this role and he was so perfectly mixed with the costuming that was put on him, the makeup that was put on him. It was such a, yeah, a gross Joker and like Jack Nicholson's Joker is also gross, but his is like shinier somehow and more. Yeah, it's like new. It's like pristine. This is like a nasty trash gross. Yeah. And this is also like, like I put this makeup on three months ago and I just keep applying later like sweating it off flaking. It's cracked. Like the eye makeup looks like it runs cause of sweat or tear like it's just, it's so
00:48:10
Speaker
Like the costume together because it's not that, what is a what is the dye that was um discovered in the um the mid late 1800s? Is that anodyne dye? Aniline?
00:48:23
Speaker
And i but yeah, the dyes that came out in that period that were like technicolor, bright, crazy, that's the Joker, the chemical dye. That's this Joker color, right? It is very much not a color that you can necessarily create with natural.
00:48:42
Speaker
stuff and so like Heath Ledger's Joker it feels like that's still there but they knocked it back like they did they distressed it to match like but but they didn't like tear up what he's wearing or anything it's just like they rumpled like he's You can tell that he's sleeping in it. like it's like The first time you see him, it's like when he climbs into the school bus in that opening scene, you you get this beautiful shot of all of the like lived-in wrinkles in the jacket where it's like someone grabbed it off a pile on the floor and like threw it on. and It's perfect because it's, like it's it's the the as he says himself, the chaos the chaos element.
00:49:21
Speaker
but ah There's like a moment in the movie when he is finally in custody and there the the cop is like briefing like Gordon or whatever i think um but they're talking about the Joker and they're like we couldn't figure out who this guy is like he doesn't have any prints on file like we couldn't figure out we couldn't figure this they say all his clothes are custom they don't have labels.
00:49:45
Speaker
yeah And I thought that was such a cool little thing to add because it's like, we don't we don't know where this person came from at all. And um it reminded me of the, I think it's the Somerton Man in Australia.
00:50:03
Speaker
the man who was like discovered like deceased on yeah on a beach in case anyone yeah doesn't know. And there's like- True crossover. True crossover. Hello. um But people spent like decades trying to figure out who this guy was. And one of the stumbling blocks and in terms of figuring out who he was is that all the labels were cut out of his clothing.
00:50:25
Speaker
but Because at that time especially there was not these like big massive clothing producers like we have now like there was a lot more small clothing producers so finding out where someone's clothes were from could help you figure out like geographically like where they came from or where they had lived or whatever. um So like that detail in this movie of saying like, he doesn't even have labels in his clothing is like this guy could have literally dropped out of the sky and landed here. We just don't know. And then also additionally, it's kind of fun to imagine Joker either has like a personal tailor
00:51:04
Speaker
And that he just, how did those meetings go? Or that Joker knows how to sew and tailor for himself. And it's just like in the middle of the night, talking to himself, just hand-sewing some stuff. Just like, enjoy that. I prefer to think of it that way. It's gotta do that. I enjoy thinking of it that way way more. Like he's interrogating somebody like in the other half of the room. And so it's like cronies are like holding this guy down and he's just like got like his hands on an industrial and he's like running a jacket there. Like I just kind of love that. Um, but there, okay, there was a joke. There are a couple like little throwbacks I feel like that I really enjoyed. One is kind of early in the movie where
00:51:52
Speaker
Bruce is requesting an upgrade to the suit. Like we've already seen him. Yes. Yeah. There's the fake Batman's batsmen's and all of a sudden real Batman's there. And we see the scarecrow for a hot second. Oh, scarecrow. I forgot he was in this movie for like one moment. I was like, oh my goodness. And that mask is. I don't think that was Billy Murphy in there. I don't think that was him. I don't know. I don't. Well, I mean, he is there when he gets like tied up.
00:52:19
Speaker
Like, you know, yeah, oh, yeah. Okay. You're right. You're right. Okay. So I don't know. That would be kind of crazy. yeah an american accent i know Yeah. I mean, that is pretty crazy. But, um, like we see Batman and like, he takes down all these guys, whatever. And then he gets back and he's like, the suit needs an upgrade. And the conversation about it is that he can't turn his neck. And I was like, yes, you're mentioning it real. And then when he talks to Lucius Fox after like,
00:52:47
Speaker
actually sleeping through a meeting or pretending to be asleep through a meeting. I think it's Lucius Fox. like He's like, the suit needs an upgrade, and Lucius Fox goes, well, you're right, the the three-button 90s suit. Yeah, a little updated. It is a little 90s. And I was like, that joke was pretty aces. like It's just so stupid, so subtle, and I loved it. It's just like, you're right, the three buttons are pretty 90s. In 2008, are you serious? like Oh, pull yourself together.
Underdeveloped Female Characters in Superhero Films
00:53:16
Speaker
That joke was for us. was's really It was for the costumers.
00:53:21
Speaker
And um there's this gown that Rachel's wearing during like the fundraiser ah that gets blown up by Joker. And I enjoyed that gown a lot. yeah There's like this black like sequin work or beading work.
00:53:37
Speaker
that kind of like is almost like a harness like over her shoulders and around her bust to her waist. Beautiful lines. And it's like this deep green. like It's just really lovely. um I have such mixed feelings about this movie because like the the ah Maggie Gyllenhaal is replacing Katie Holmes, I think, playing this character. And this character is such a cardboard cutout of like a developed human person that it infuriates me every time.
00:54:06
Speaker
And I remember the first time seeing it in theaters, I was like, I'm in range. But this time I wasn't really paying attention to the story consistently as much as I was just trying to watch. Look what was going on. Visually. Maggie Gyllenhaal tried so hard. She brought everything that could be brought to that character, I think, in terms of making her three-dimensional. But yeah, there's I mean, it's the same with Kim Basinger in the first movie. Oh yeah, this is not the fault of the actresses. This is the Natalie Portman paradox from like the early Star Wars, the Star Wars prequel trilogy. This is the plight of so many women in these types of movies. And it's unfortunately what happens to a lot of them. Oh yeah, and because these movies are
00:54:54
Speaker
so much about like Batman's diary. Like today I felt emotional because like the suit just isn't what I want it to be yet. You know, like it's just so this exploration of this, like we've elevated Batman to being more than just a businessman, which is how we see him in Michael Keaton and in, um,
00:55:16
Speaker
in Batman he Returns, Batman Forever, the Clooney Batman. He's like a businessman playboy. We see that side. We don't see the serious side, which is why it's like so punched up for this one. It's obviously a darker Batman who has way more levels that aren't just this like businessman playboy. JK, I care about stuff. more sad He's way more sad. He's so deep. he's a character He's so deep. He's like the ocean. There are sharks swimming in sight of him. i
00:55:47
Speaker
and Hey Batman, have you heard of communism?
Batman as a Symbol of Sacrifice
00:55:51
Speaker
um anarchy of But this Batman, there's so much effort into establishing that he is like a sacrifice, like he is making a sacrifice of his life in order to feel valid. And yeah um there's a lot that can be said about the sacrifice he is choosing to make, for sure. um I don't have the brain cells to go into that. And that's not what we're here for. We're here to talk about costumes. And so there's also this deep exploration. Well, no, deep is the wrong word.
00:56:23
Speaker
But it's long more of an exploration of Joker than we've really had in others ah because, and it's even with like Bane, like all the, and Ra's Al Ghul, the villains in this Batman frat franchise,
00:56:40
Speaker
are more grounded, even if they're caricaturized, there's so much more effort put into like putting the Joker in the traditional Joker colors, the traditional Joker outfit, but it's not like highlighter colors. It's like more grounded. And then we have this female character that I just am like,
00:57:03
Speaker
i you all you did You did what you could and when you got blown up, by and I that other people were sad in the story. um But I appreciate that we don't have a backstory for Joker in this movie because yes I find and He's it's it's so much stronger, he's so much more powerful. i'm so I don't think that this character and this performance would be as iconic because like I think, going going back to true crime, like the the mystery of like these horrible people is what makes them so fascinating. And then like once you actually find out their identity, you're like, that's just some guy who was mad. It's some guy. That's what I thought.
00:57:51
Speaker
about Joker in the 89-1 is that we saw him pre-dip, pre-crazy, and it was like i did I just didn't need it. I understood the place for it, but it's like I saw this guy with like a nice suit and then he becomes this like crazy cartoon character and like okay but I didn't need that journey yeah and it made that version for me and it can have any effect on anybody but for me I was like okay well now he's just the caricature cool yeah but the performance that Jack Nicholson does as the character like the crazy character is so good like it would like that's the pinnacle that's what people remember it's not necessarily before
00:58:34
Speaker
I didn't need the before. And so with this one, yeah, having him just already be developed, already be this like absolute nutcracker is like, okay.
Joker's Enigmatic Role Without Backstory
00:58:47
Speaker
Because then he gets to play. He doesn't have to establish for us.
00:58:51
Speaker
yeah why he's so crazy. He doesn't have to earn the crazy. He's already there and he's already organized and he's already confident. So we don't have to like be convinced. So that's why I love his costume so much. It's like, that's, I keep bringing up that it's not as saturated as others. And I love that because he's like still yelling that like, I'm a showman and I'm all these things, but he's not yelling as loud as other versions are. So it's it's not that,
00:59:20
Speaker
I have to prove it so that like I overreach and then just like look like a jackass. It's just like, no, he's so confident that he doesn't have to like underline everything. He just does it. Yeah, absolutely. like that and it i mean it wouldn't the The world that Christopher Nolan created in this like trio of movies,
00:59:41
Speaker
requires a little bit more connection to the real world that we know. like It it yeah wouldn't make sense to be that cartoony. That's not what he has like set up for us. It goes into places that our world doesn't go ah scarecrow. Hello. um But like it's not the same level of of of cartooniness that the first one has it's it's interesting like yeah it is interesting how the the 89 can like walk that line which is hard to do um and so i think it makes sense that like it it's
01:00:21
Speaker
It's definitely a logical evolution to be made like during the Bush administration to have this Batman.
Batman’s Thematic Evolution
01:00:31
Speaker
It makes sense that this is the type of um superhero language that we were all like couldn't get enough of in 2008. It's interesting yes seeing how how superhero movies reflect the times in which they are made. Or like, and again, not speaking of the comics, because I'm just not familiar with them. But like, the movies really, but as course days you can say whatever the the hell he wants about like, these aren't even shish, they're movies, they're on a screen, calm down. Like no one's saying that it's Fellini, but they are movies. Yeah, they are movies. And um they are also
01:01:17
Speaker
Totally you look at them and you can understand the time in which they were created the same way that when we were going through our sci-fi series you can you can really see the influence of the times and the events of those times in telling those stories and so yeah, the fact that because like now we have this different Batman, which we didn't watch. So it's just going to be a brief mention. Yeah, like but the um better patent hes out there doing his thing. Oh, that was that. Well, we can't even we can't even talk about that one because that was so bad tired Batman. that Oh my God. Tired alcoholic depressed Batman. Yeah. Sorry. I forgot about Pattinson for a second. wow No, we're going to skip forward to one. It's because I feel like
01:02:00
Speaker
My personal opinion, I did not enjoy those Justice League Batman movies. I do not, whatever. But the Pattinson one, I did think was good. It felt kind of like a return to the the seriousness of how it was like taken and like the darkness of the world. Like they work in a way that I felt like other ones were aiming for something different. And so Pattinson one feels like a return to Batman Begins. Like that kind of right right step in like, much more this is how they tell you the story.
01:02:30
Speaker
Yeah. The Pattinson one, we now have this Batman who's like depressed, but looking for love. Robert Pattinson's Batman is an incel. He is an incel Batman. There's no two ways about that. So is like the Riddler or is it the Riddler who's the the bad guy in that one? like there's There's so much there that is reflective of this and like the Joker movies that also have come out in the past few years, that guy's an incel, like even more so than Pattinson is Batman. I will admit that I i have not seen either of the Joker movies because I have i have no interest. I dragged
01:03:18
Speaker
all of my soul, I did not want to see Joker at all. I'm so sorry that you did. And I saw it and I i get it. I don't get it. I i refuse to get it. By getting it, I'm like, I get who this was made for. And it wasn't me. And um that movie to me is exactly the definition of an incel.
01:03:43
Speaker
And so you can argue with your mom about it. But like a there's a there's a change in who we're talking about and who we're talking to. and with the The um bail, Batman, Dark Knight, is very much, hey, don't you want to prevent terrorism?
Militarization and Civil Rights in Dark Knight
01:04:07
Speaker
oh Don't you want to be a copper? Here's how you can do it. Don't you understand that we have to violate people's civil rights because we're doing it for the right reasons?
01:04:18
Speaker
Yeah, for the right reason. You just don't understand. You will if I explain it to you for long enough and I'm going to start right now. And that's the one where I was like, oh, I can't go into it. there think You can't fully avoid it. But it's like you see it in all of the things where it's like you want to look like a a really good-looking you know like business guy, right? like You want to look like this, and you want to have all the muscles in the world. You want to be super muscly. You want to feel no pain. The Lamborghini, the penthouse, the yacht, it's all there. and What makes it worth it is that you are Officer Batman. and it's just yeah Seeing the the evolution of the Batman suits and tools is really
01:05:03
Speaker
wild wilds. And I think some, I mean, obviously technology is like a huge part of like, what was possible in addition to like, like more, more experience, more practice with superhero movies, but like there's a huge,
01:05:20
Speaker
Evolution in like textile and like fabricated technology that like makes it possible crazy because it's also like we don't really. I are i just watched these today and I'm already forgetting pieces in earlier batman's is.
01:05:36
Speaker
We're not really privy to the manufacturing of these things. We're privy to the mystery of it that it exists and that he has the yeah and the resources to make it exist. But it almost feels like the way that we made the jokes about the Joker, like sewing his own stuff, it almost feels like Batman's hot glue in his own shit in his bat cave. Whereas like,
01:05:57
Speaker
in this one there's like an empire that Batman is sitting at the top of where he can just like give notes to specs and he's yes hired people for other shit but he's narrowed he's zeroed in on their skills and he applies those skills to what he needs from them and then gets a product from it and so we see his business acumen we see his his like business know how and getting that stuff done. We see the corporate, you know, sneakiness about it and shell companies like like hidden budgets and like, yeah, money is moving around allocation. Yeah, all these different things. And and it's like it's a it's a great insight into what a character would need to have this kind of thing fabricated because he understands that he can't make it himself and that he understands that he has to keep
01:06:53
Speaker
evolving it for his purposes and that we're being told as an audience that there's this whole infrastructure behind the uniforms and like there's not just one, there's not two, there's not like a display of three, that there's multiple, multiple generations of these things and the technology that he's testing out in his own city is presumably being put out into the industry.
01:07:16
Speaker
like, but yeah without connecting it to Batman. And it's something that I think gets perpetuated in like the Marvel universe with Tony Stark and all the Iron Man suits because every movie he's got a new Iron Man suit, but they don't pretend and that it just like came out of nowhere like and with him obviously like he's making them, but like though I do appreciate that there are moments in those movies while they where like the old Iron Man suit will be like in a display case. yeah i know i did right There is an Iron Man where there's all of the Iron Men's, yeah all of the bodies. I I enjoy, okay so as a technician, I enjoy any recognition of things
Legacy of Batman's Costume Design
01:08:04
Speaker
being used. Somebody made that. Yeah. and It's like Tony in those makes his suits.
01:08:10
Speaker
yeah That's like his thing. But he's proud of the work he's done. So he keeps the different generations and he's using the information that he's like you know built over each generation. and It's like when you have like a book of patterns and you look back over one and go, yeah I'm not going to do that scene, I'm going to do this scene over here. So it's it's that for him and with Batman, this Batman,
01:08:36
Speaker
I do like the idea that somewhere in his cave that he has like a computer system with all of the designs for all of his suits and that you could have this like fashion exhibit.
01:08:53
Speaker
day in the future. I like can't wait to get thatman um we go. I would go and I'd be like, let's see how this was made. Also, like yeah maybe creating new technologies. You know and yeah like you mentioned it pushing and like creating new textiles in order to create those suits. I'll be nerdy. I do enjoy the frigging vehicles that Batman has. like Wow. so It's the stupid bat bike. I love that thing because like the way that his costume integrates with his like vehicles is pretty great. Like there's just, there's something about how this Batman, okay. So Michael Keaton's Batman, they're all black, right? And like,
01:09:41
Speaker
uh, George Clooney's black, he's a bat, but George Clooney's has like nipples, right? And like, they all have different muscles carved in and like, but none of them- I feel like one of the George Clooney ones incorporates some like really midnight blue somewhere, but maybe it's just really shiny. I don't know, but it's, it's like black or variations of black.
01:10:03
Speaker
yeah But yeah this one, the Nolan um bail Batman is like murdered out matte black and everything that is with him is that matte black. And so there's just like, there's an effect that's created by that where I can believe that you wouldn't see this Batman in the shadows because he also doesn't have like a giant yellow emblem. Like right you just,
01:10:27
Speaker
just And the dark that's not going to catch light, it's just absorbing light. The dark night. The dark, he is, I am the night.
01:10:40
Speaker
I have to say, i the the vehicles in this franchise don't do it for me. They don't, just aesthetically, they don't work for me. but I get that. I like them because of how they work with the costumes. It feels like Batman here, Bail's Batman has a very tight aesthetic. that's not ah like Everything about him, it it talks to each other. like right The Michael Keaton one, the Tim Burton style is very, very designed. designed right like I mean, they're all designed obviously, but it's very statement Batman.
01:11:16
Speaker
swoopy and yeah it looks like a conceptual car from like the 30s. It's a little bit art deco. There's like stuff going on in there. and like Clooney, you could talk about those. but Haven't seen it recent enough, so I can't. I don't remember what it looks like at all. No memory. But this one, it feels like a uniform. It feels like there's something about I want it to be able to absorb light so that I can be disguised.
Matte Black Aesthetic of Batman
01:11:45
Speaker
I want it to not, I want it to like be bulletproof. I want it to be all these things and I, and it all works together with all of the tools that come with it. Like nothing stands out or feels cartoonish.
01:11:59
Speaker
I mean, it's freaking Batman, so of course it feels cartoonish, but like it doesn't feel like... I mean, he's a man in a bat costume. That's where we're starting from. Yeah, that's our starting point, so real talk. But like it just it it's very tight together, so I like the design of all of those things working together and what they say about the character's sensibility and practicality. Yeah. For how he looks at his... That makes sense, yeah. Yeah, so and like how he's looking at these things Um, and the purposes that they serve. And one of those purposes is fear. If you saw that guy walk out of a fucking alley, I would lose it. I would lose it. I do all the things that you do to make yourself look crazy and dangerous, like talking to yourself and I'd pee myself. I do all of it because like, what the hell is that guy? And why is he so ready?
01:12:46
Speaker
for like ultimate violence. That suit looks bomb proof. I think I would just run. I would just run. I know that I couldn't run fast enough. I'm not in that kind of shape. So it's like, what am I going to do? A serpentine? Like Batman, maybe that would get him because he can't turn his head with the cowl.
01:13:03
Speaker
I wouldn't doubt that if you run behind him, his yes his eyesight is um triggered by movement, just like a dinosaur. Just go real still. so But there's the the design, all of the design of this Batman I think is very, very tight in a way yeah that visually worked for me and seeing the Tim Burton one so close to this one, I think it's it's partially because it lets my eyes kind of rest. you know like Because the Joker is the one that's getting all the, oh my God, he's so colorful, all these things. He's got the flash. But like I don't and don't need to be
01:13:47
Speaker
visually overwhelmed in that same way, you know, with Batman. Well, there's plenty of, like, explosions to visually overwhelm you in this movie. Yeah. There's one little Joker moment ah detail. It's a huge moment, but a Joker costume detail that I really, really appreciated in this, which is that iconic scene where he's in the hospital in, like, the nurse's dress with, like, the wig when he walks outside. He's wearing Crocs, number one, which I don't think anyone in 2008 had any idea that people would honestly wear Crocs unapologetically in the future. But he's- No, we had idiocracy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But he's still wearing his Joker dress socks that are like this purple and green pattern.
01:14:40
Speaker
And it's such a little thing that I don't know that you'd necessarily like notice right away. But it was it was just so perfect. And it's also like, there's some like innate comedy at that time of like wearing like your crew box pulled all the way up because in 2008, that was not cool. That was not the look. That was not the look. And it took a lot of confidence for that to be your
Collaborative Efforts in Costume Design
01:15:05
Speaker
look. And yeah there's There's a lot in this that feels like there was a costumer there. and I know that's a crazy thing to say, but it feels rewarding when you look at something and you go, that's a little detail that maybe was talked about in a fitting where the actor even like had a conversation with a costume designer and they were like, te hee yes, let's do it. You know what I mean? like
01:15:28
Speaker
yeah you you feel It's collaboration. You feel that there was collaboration happening and that enriches the world because you're not just trying to have a flat fresco of like this one vision. You've got all of these little things feeding together.
01:15:46
Speaker
to like flesh it out so it's three-dimensional and that's I think what I that's probably what I was trying to get out with like the Batman design is it feels three-dimensional and so does this Joker like they feel breathing and I really enjoy that and um I actually didn't look up the costume designer before just oh it's but the costume designer yeah Lindy Heming Yeah, she did like all of the Pierce Brosnan 007 movies in the 90s. Like, my girl, like... She did this trilogy. So she did Batman Begins. She did this. She did the final one. She did Lara Croft Tomb Raider. Like so much action, like this is clearly something she understands. She gets it. Yes, like Clash of the Titans. So yeah, she understands the type of this kind of action. And then like Clash of the Titans, which is like. Sprawling.
01:16:41
Speaker
Yeah, Greek and like flowing and different needs happening. ah Casino Royale she did. Paddington. She did Paddington. Paddington too. And like Wonka in 2023. Like there's a lot happening there. And so this is another designer, yet another one. Like I don't think that we've hit any designer because I don't think we ever will. Who's just like, no, I just put pants on the person in that yeah no story. Like it's,
01:17:09
Speaker
I want everybody, when you see a movie, look up the designers and see all the different things that they do. Look up your the cinematographers, look up the the sound designers, look up everybody and see what a wide scale their skills cross because these are really talented folks who have talented teams who hopefully are really great at collaboration and you know, not just doing it on the face of it and are just like putting out great stuff where even if their name is at the forefront and there is like a team behind them that's contributing a ton of stuff, which is what makes the world go around.
Craftsmanship in Costume Storytelling
01:17:45
Speaker
Yep. They're, they're putting together great teams who are coming up with really cool stuff and like cool little details and Yeah. and they can like like You can have someone that can do this, Ann Paddington, because she understands what each project needs and she can deliver like a beautiful world for each thing. and I hope that it's still fun you know like to be able that there's like, ooh, we get to do something different. like Last one was all blood and guts and now we get to do Paddington.
01:18:18
Speaker
just something That's like exciting and fun. I recommend these ones because I think that there's a cool world ah being established by all of the designs that are at play. like When you think of Batman, yeah you think of the Batsuit and business suits, but I think that there's even more happening around this Batman.
01:18:43
Speaker
um with the villains with those other things and with like the streetwear and also the bat suit evolution i think is definitely something to explore if you're interested as a listener Yeah, like i'm not a huge um I'm not a huge Batman like person. like i yeah like like i don't know like i don't I don't hate Batman or anything, but i don't like it is such a beloved character that is just like not my thing on its own.
01:19:13
Speaker
I'm sure a lot of people have seen these movies, but yeah, I would say, like yeah, watch them again, look at the clothes, like look at the details. there's There's so much attention to detail in both of the movies. I think people will be rewarded for yes giving it a little space in their brain. Yeah. and it's like i I enjoy superhero movies because I think it's really interesting to see how the design of them evolves with the audience expectations.
Pre-Dark Knight Superhero Films and Nolan's Influence
01:19:48
Speaker
And so like this one, this series just really informed, I think, um the Marvel kickoff because there was a world before the Avengers movie. oh my can you i Can you remember that far back? I don't think I can. I remember a little taste of it and there was more stuff coming out that was different. and um But there was yeah the X-Men before this and that was like the understanding of superhero stuff. No.
01:20:17
Speaker
I'm gonna widen that. The understanding of fantasy and comic books. Like sci-fi had already been getting really cool design. Fantasy was still not...
01:20:29
Speaker
quite being treated as seriously a medium, I feel, in movies until we got The Lord of the Rings. Yeah, there's interesting stuff happening, but it was a lot more low budget, which does restrict to a certain extent what you're able to do. It restricts a lot of stuff. And so Lord of the Rings was like a moment.
01:20:50
Speaker
And Batman Begins and Christopher Nolan's Batman was another moment for superhero comic book stuff. Because like before this, yeah, it was the the X-Men series. And yeah, those fight were. Yeah, yeah. And Spider-Man. Yeah, Sam Raimi. And so there were there was just there was still a more pulling from the 2D illustrated comic with those sensibilities. And then Nolan's was like, no, we're going to go gritty, real. yeah he' really He really did that. Like he really did that in a way that wasn't yeah happening beforehand. Yeah.
01:21:31
Speaker
And it was just like, you know, it's it's nice to know in kind of like pop culture, costume history, I don't as I get older, the less I'm interested in Batman because the copy of it all is pretty, pretty loud. um But the batsuit technology, I, I did not look because I did not plan well, and you know me in research.
01:21:56
Speaker
I didn't look to see if there's like any in-depth stuff on the making of this suit, but like I wonder if like on a DVD or there's a video floating around somewhere where they talk about the making of it. There has to be because like what a cool thing to fabricate and like to to have to test. You probably had to test the ever-loving hell out of this like Every time you make one of these, you probably have to test it because they're not CG. Morgan Freeman was a real person in the development of these costumes. There was a real person doing that job that he did. Yes. and it's like you know i i do I do want to tack on to what I just said about it. It wasn't CG.
Physical Fabrication Enhancing Realism
01:22:31
Speaker
CG requires its own its own demons you in order to animate it. Yeah.
01:22:37
Speaker
but it's not the same tactile process. And so it's just like a different thing that I don't know. i That's something that we do need to go down a rabbit hole about is um digital costume design and like you know stuff that isn't man. tile yeah in your hands Not physical. Yeah. But this one is, this one is physical. And so it's interesting to see how it integrates without having it be like augmented by computer and having to get to that place by experimenting, experimenting, experimenting. So it made me think a lot more about that than I thought it would. I thought I'd just be like, I was a Batman on my screen. And instead I was like, Ooh, how did we get there? Yeah. what know
01:23:21
Speaker
and It's so dark. I can't tell. Yeah, so it was. It was pretty cool and it's also like I would like to see these costumes in a in an exhibition. I would like to see. Yeah, like I would love to see them. iteration boom yeah boom I love to see them. So it was fun in that sense.
Podcast Wrap-up and Teasers
01:23:42
Speaker
ah um Yeah, what a fun little time.
01:23:45
Speaker
What a fun little time we had. So next week is our last episode of season two. Can you believe it? We made it. Season two started in 2024 before the presidential election. It was a different world. And it's coming to an end. And we have one movie left that we are going to cover for this season. Shall we tell everyone what it is? I am so excited. And I've been talking about this movie since before we pressed record on our first episode, because I knew yeah and it would be disgustingly fun to talk about. And I know I'm still right. We are going to cover Luc Besson's The Fifth Element.
01:24:35
Speaker
Oh my god. Sorry, I'm going to correct what I said. Mila Jovovich's. There it is. The fifth element. That's great. We're going to watch this movie. So you know the term echolalia, where you hear something and then you just like repeat it, repeat it, repeat it? Oh yeah. I have a couple little things.
01:24:54
Speaker
I just like pull them out of the pocket and they just like plug in to my everyday life. There's a line from this movie, Aziz, more light. I'm going to be saying that for probably 45 minutes straight after and during watching this movie. It's another Gary Oldman, so we get to see Gary Oldman again.
01:25:14
Speaker
Yeah, back to back. I'm so excited because the fifth element, that's a costume movie, baby. Couldn't ask for more. Honestly, I thought when we were doing season one and we got to the 90s, I thought I was going to have to fight you to do The Matrix because I thought you were going to insist that we do fifth element for the 90s. I was like, nah.
01:25:37
Speaker
We'll have space. You're like, matrix, matrix makes sense. And I was like, I was like ready to. Yeah, no, no, no. Because like the fifth element, it was its moment for sure. That's why we're covering it right now. Movies and made millennials. I think that it had a big impact. But like, yeah, the matrix, it's inarguable, you know, where it is in sci fi. Deniable.
01:26:02
Speaker
I'm so excited I'm also so excited because we're moving away from this dark hellscape that we've been trapped in for these last three movies and we get to go into the saturated bright bright world where everything is not delightful, but it's bright as hell. And I i was going to say, it's still kind of dirty and in black. Oh, it's some dirty. It's dirty. is cool But we've got prints. There's leopard prints. There's beautiful, crazy hair. There's like vinyl all over the place and colors. Oh my God. It's, it's the color stories that I'm like, what I'm so ready for you because we've been in such dark color palettes, like just been in darkness. And so now we get to go into that. light as these more light see you can see what's happening i think my like my echolalia for fifth element is mila jovovich going multipas guess multi multi pass and um chi can chicken
01:27:04
Speaker
there's There's a few things that happened there. So I'm really excited to talk about the design that's happening in the fifth element. and i'm We're going to be bringing, I think, a lot of a different energy to that episode because yeah there's just there's just so much to talk about. Yeah, it's much more showy, it's much more ostentatious, it's much more it's very exuberant.
01:27:28
Speaker
Yes, yeah it's like as if everybody was related to the Joker. So like we just get to to follow that story and I'm very excited. So I hope that you all follow along and give give that one a listen when it comes out. Yeah, please do. Please join us and hopefully we'll see you there.
01:27:49
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thanks, Melinda. It was fun. Yeah, thank you. It was a pleasure as always. Thank you