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Fight Club- This 'GAP' Prison
21 Plays2 months ago
This episode is a sucker punch right to the ear.
Melinda finally gets revenge for having to watch Hook earlier this season by making Ariel revisit a movie she never wanted to see again. In keeping with the themes of this movie, it's the most contentious episode to date. But it's a clean fight. At least something that can be agreed on, the costumes here are perfect.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0137523/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_7_nm_1_in_0_q_fight%2520
https://www.dazeddigital.com/fashion/article/46788/1/fight-club-fashion-style-brad-pitt-tyler-durden-edward-norton-anniversary-1999
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Hot Set Podcast and Fight Club
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, welcome back to another episode of Hot Set. We are coming in strong. Today we are talking about the 1999 David Fincher film Fight Club. And the first rule about this episode of our podcast about Fight Club is please tell everyone about it, actually, the opposite of what the movie would like you to do. Please tell all your friends and family about this episode about Fight Club.
Cultural Impact and Personal Views on Fight Club
00:00:50
Speaker
I'm really excited to cover this movie. ah This was 100% my pick on the list, which will come up later. I think this is a really important movie culturally.
00:01:03
Speaker
in the millennial generation. And for that reason alone, I think it's worth covering it. I do think it's also a really interesting movie costume wise, which I think is also for this show, a reason to cover it. Ariel's trying to keep her face very neutral right now because she hates this movie. So before I let her speak, before I give her the opportunity to share anything,
00:01:32
Speaker
um I really like this movie. um And as I said to Ariel before we started recording, I don't have to agree with it in order to like the movie, ah which is kind of, it kind of goes without saying, but I think it's important to distinguish for movies like this. that I don't have to agree with everything that the movie says or the way that the movie says everything um in order to like it. But I think that this movie was just so influential to a whole generation of boys and men and boys to men in our age group. And I think it's a really interesting testament that you can't control how people interpret the art that you make. um I think that one of the biggest takeaways for me, even the first time that I saw the movie, was that
00:02:30
Speaker
You can't control what people think your movie is about, and you can't control the lessons that people take from your movie. You can only put out the art that you want to make that you feel good about.
00:02:45
Speaker
and From there, it becomes like public property in a way that isn't 100% yours anymore. And I think this is one of those movies where I think a lot of people that like the movie don't like it for the right reasons, but you can't deny the impact that it has had on our culture. And with that, I shall pass the torch. And I would like to hear your thoughts, Ariel, about this film.
00:03:15
Speaker
I'm glad that one of us is smart. Oh my God, don't say that. I just and just have. Okay. where to be begin. So I have a lot of respect for the design of it and like yeah for it as like art piece. But um so I feel like we have so much to talk about on that front. My notes are are little and my notes are little because I i just don't enjoy this movie. And yeah thank you for setting me up as being attracted to the neutral face because
00:03:52
Speaker
i'm sorry he's a glass face god damn but my I just, I just hate this movie. Hate is a very extreme word. It's very dramatic and I'm on purpose kind of being a little bit dramatic. I just dislike this movie.
00:04:09
Speaker
strongly while still recognizing its its place in millennial yeah movie history because it really was a big deal. And I think that the reason why I dislike it was the reason I disliked it when I first saw it when we were kids, because this came out in 99. And it's because like most of us who are in the public school system, um we are around all genders of folks were around all identities of folks, right? And I was watching how this movie affected the boys that I was in school with. And that is the impression that I carried for a very long time, even knowing that the story is satire. And I actually had this like, and ah but the pleasure of being a part of the very tail end of this.
00:04:55
Speaker
But after I watched it, I had like a 15-minute gap before we recorded, and ah like my husband was still in bed. but blank It's like up to his trip, like still coming into the world, and I just came in on fire after. real You said it. Why I said it's so good that one of us is smart is because We're both smart, but I appreciate your saying that
Debate on Masculinity and Misogyny in Fight Club
00:05:25
Speaker
once you make a piece of art and you release it out into the world, you don't control how that piece of art is taken. And that is kind of the beautiful thing about art is that you have made it and now it exists. And it's funny because what I was yelling at my husband
00:05:38
Speaker
was exactly about that, but without the allowance for that being a good thing. And so it's like, I do want to say that I do believe that yes, art should live and then it exists and it should be taken however it's gonna be taken. I think that my frustrations and my sadness and my anger about the world in which we live now post 1999, post Chuck Palaniak's book, post this movie,
00:06:05
Speaker
is a world where you can see the the descendants of this yeah ancestor in pop culture and where you see the actual effect of, and this is this is the thing, my husband's a cis white guy, right? So he was the target. He is what is displayed in this movie. And he loves this movie. He loves this story because he likes knowing like he he's like, it's satire. It's about all these things that are bad. We know they're bad. And I agreed understanding that but for me,
00:06:40
Speaker
This is before we even get into any of the costumes. um For me, I have a problem where I think that it's kind of a beautiful thing that I have such a strong visceral reaction to it that's negative and other people have strong positive ones. I think that's a beautiful thing because you can talk about it.
00:07:00
Speaker
but For me, having rewatched it, I actually got even angrier this time. Oh no! Oh no! It's just because of how it ties to the to our real world, right? because Yeah, there's the million ah ah there's a million influencers now that are like little Tyler Durden's and not little narrators. And the whole thing for me is that it is a beautiful thing when you create art and you release it into the world and it's taken however it's taken.
00:07:30
Speaker
I might be totally ignorant, so that's totally, totally cool to disagree with me and be like, you're a dumbass. I get that. For me, it's kind of like hard to get past. If you were making like a small art house film, I think it's easier and wiser to keep it art house and to keep it like this is satire. This is, you know, whatever. But when you're making a major motion picture, I feel commercial i feel like you have to push it that little bit further.
00:07:58
Speaker
And that did not happen. And so what do I mean by that? I mean, the movie, we're watching satire, satire, satire, I get it, but whatever. We're watching this exploration of just misogyny and like shit, masculinity. I don't think I would agree with the word misogyny. I think I would agree that we're exploring the world of masculinity in a world where women don't exist.
00:08:23
Speaker
We'll get there. We're exploring masculinity on its own in a weird way. I'm going to disagree. So there is misogyny, but we are masculinity, yes. I'm not saying there's not misogyny in the movie. I don't think the movie is about that. We're exploring masculinity and toxic masculinity. yeah And so we are seeing that, right? And we're seeing that exploration and we're seeing Yes, we're supposed to understand that this is not great. It's not good. But in the world, we're seeing that Jack, who is Tyler Durden,
00:08:58
Speaker
who is the narrator. Spoiler alert, come on. This movie that came out 1999. 26 years ago. So Edward Norton, we're seeing his experience and he is going from this very dissatisfied, very detached, very depressed person into somebody who's found power and is like creating this system of power at which he sits at the top, right?
00:09:24
Speaker
And so even when he's coming to awareness and discovering that this is not what he wants and it's he's out of control, whatever, he's still in power and he's still treating this woman like shit. We'll talk about it. I disagree with him still being in power. I disagree with that.
00:09:43
Speaker
we'll we'll talk about it. He is not the man that he started as, right? So there is, sure there well we'll get into it, but he has been treating this woman. We have seen him treat her like garbage, this whole movie. And like at the very end, when everything burns down, they're holding hands, end of movie, right? yeah If it had been pushed even one minute longer,
00:10:10
Speaker
or like four minutes longer, I think I wouldn't have the reaction to this movie that I do. What do you think would happen in those four minutes? The whole time that we've seen him with this woman, even as Tyler Durden, like Brad Pitt, the way that ah she's spoken to, the way, okay, this is where the misogyny comes in, right? Is like how she exists in his world is as a prop, right? And so like,
00:10:36
Speaker
She takes this position. We can talk about it in a minute. At the end, they're in a diner and she's like, I'm done with you. And he's like, 15 seconds, 15 seconds. Don't open your mouth or move. I'm trying to say I'm sorry. I really like you.
00:10:56
Speaker
Even then, I hate him so much. And so it's like kind of, to me, the way that I received it is this exploration of like, this is all bad, sure, sure, sure. But this is this character and his arc in this masculinity, this form of masculinity. And then at the very end, he shoots himself.
00:11:12
Speaker
Spoiler alert. And Tyler Durden is gone, right? yeah He's still Tyler Durden to her, but like the Brad Pitts... The alter ego, the hallucination is gone. The hallucination is gone. So he's like in his place, he's in his body now. He's fully cognizant of all of these things. If we're talking about how bad toxic masculinity is or whatever, this form of masculinity, if we're talking about how the wear and tear that it takes on the body, how it like rots you, if there had been One more minute that showed how is he going to step forward and not be that anymore? I don't think I would hate it as much.
00:11:49
Speaker
Because and that could just be I think the act of him taking her hand in the first place is that first step because that's not something that he's done in this whole like the movie to me is his complete inability to be emotionally vulnerable like at all at any point like that's like him going to all these support group throughout the movie like I mean more so at the beginning when he's going to these emotional support groups The reason that he is like going there is because he needs to feel something in order to have like any ability to sleep or any ability to like engage in his life in any way. and
00:12:37
Speaker
that cycle like i or that like impulse is perpetuated with how he treats Marla. like he's still He's not emotionally vulnerable or honest with her at all throughout the movie because I don't think that he's capable of doing that he literally does not know how to do it he has no tools for dealing with that and the only. Moments that we see like any real connection between them are when he like gets even towards the edge of being honest and like emotionally vulnerable or just like.
00:13:14
Speaker
tender with her like there's these tiny little moments in the movie where he even gets anywhere close to it and that's the only time that you see like any real connection and I feel like the end of the movie in in this version it's different in the book but in the movie those actual forms of real human connection are like the only thing that is like worth preserving at the end when all the buildings are exploding is like that relationship with Marla is kind of like the only thing worth pursuing going forward.
Costume Design in Fight Club
00:13:46
Speaker
And I do think that when he takes her hand, it is him taking a step in that direction. It's maybe not enough.
00:13:53
Speaker
but I do think that that is part of it. But i do I think that this movie throws out a lot of things and doesn't close the loop on most of them. I can understand if you disagree. That's my feeling about it. I i totally get that there's like there are beautiful things in this. I totally get it. I just can't not watch this knowing how it affected you know so many people.
00:14:19
Speaker
and yeah seeing like where the disconnect is, where there are folks that I grew up with who did not catch any of that stuff because they just took the the the satire, like whatever, the the face level.
00:14:34
Speaker
And they were like, if you watch this movie and you think that Tyler Durden is the hero of the movie, then you are fucked. Yes. And so that that's what I just like kind of couldn't I can't see it without also seeing all of that, because that's why like I can't let it go. You know, like then why it makes me feel these visceral things is because now we're in this place where the Fight Club is not underground. It's it's in power.
00:14:59
Speaker
it makes It makes me sad, it makes me all these things. It's also that this story is told from an experience or a point of view that is... This is like so... It's from a point of view that isn't my own, but it's so... Because we're in this world right now where we are,
00:15:19
Speaker
fucking fascist politically. like We are yeah in such a bad place, late stage capitalism, all this shit, that this is real. All this stuff is real. We have people like this who are influencing even more younger generations who believe this to be real. And they learned some of these lessons when they were teenagers from movies like this. And like we can tell them that they're dumbasses because we can see the actual art itself. It's like I'm not mad at the the film itself.
00:15:45
Speaker
You just but want it to be more clear. i want That's because the major the major motion picture part of it, where I'm like, if we had just taken that little step further with all that effort that we had and all the subtleties that are beautiful and layered, if we had just done that, could you imagine? Because like right now our- I still think that people would be stupid fit about it. People would be stupid, but I think that if there was like a little bit more of a push because it was a big budget feature,
00:16:15
Speaker
And it's like, hey, you're dumb. Let me just hold your hand a little bit. I think it would have done that a little bit further to be like, hey, dumbass and maybe not. But it's just like, I just have that like wish, you know? And I think that all the movies that we've covered like in the sci-fi season that like talk about fascism and very clearly be like fascism is bad. Like people didn't learn the lesson there and it was so clear So that's why I'm like, I can't, I don't want to blame Fight Club for that. No. And I'm not, I'm blaming, I'm not blaming Fight Club or, no i know i know or like nobody am I blaming here for the rise in fascism. It's just having to watch this with where we are. I cannot separate my emotions about where we are from this movie because I saw it. How old were we in 99? Uh, we were like 11 or 12, but I didn't see it until I was a teenager. I saw it like early 2000s.
00:17:12
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that's a better place to kind of have a position to talk. about it with people, cause like I talked about it with people, but they were dumb little boys, you know? And like little kids who were not at all seeing this on a different level or seeing it as like a parable or a metaphor or any of those things, like right? I'm not one to advocate for censorship, but I don't think that they should have seen it at that age. Like I don't think that it's good for them to have seen it at that young of an age.
00:17:44
Speaker
if if there had been a talk back, like if we had watched it in class, in chunks even, and our teachers had talked to us about it. Because like our educational system, we have so much that we could say that's bad about it. But like comprehension, like reading comprehension is one of those things that's not that great right now, nationally. And this is one of those examples is like, this is where we could talk about comprehension. And it's like, I think that it was kind of like a perfect time for those boys to be seeing this, but there was no follow through from you know, somebody in the world that actually understood what was said. mean And like, they then it became like a fondness that they held on to. And so then when they did read it again in high school, or whatever, they were just holding it with what they had already seen and weren't like evolved and how they were receiving it. And some, I'd be interested to know, like, I'd be interested to know what people who
00:18:39
Speaker
were older when it came out, thought about it at the time because I still think there were a lot of really dumb guys that didn't understand it that were adults when it came out. But like again, like I don't know, it's hard because like I think that it's important to make stuff that is challenging and not like so clean cut. like There are so many ideas being expressed in this movie that are not like fully you know like hit you over the head with what the author I think I feel like because this is a pretty faithful adaptation of the book there are some changes but the sort of basic like plot structure stays the same the ending is different in the book um I do think that
00:19:28
Speaker
like as a writer like Chuck Pollanik, I don't think that he is in the business of like telling you what to think about his stories at all. no he's like yeah He's a bit of a shit coaster in some ways, I feel like. like He throws a lot of stuff out and he doesn't always ah take a side? I don't know. by yeah Should we talk about the costumes in the movie? Let's get into it. it's The thing is that i love just like before we like last yeah yeah I love that this invites so much conversation because it like art are is not responsible
00:20:04
Speaker
for holding your hand. I know that that's what I'm like yelling about, but that's just i that just me being ah pissed about 2025 and where we are. yeah know like yeah that's That's feeding into into my feelings about it and I'm owning that and recognizing that. It's hard to not like think about all these asshole influencers that yeah are like little like i i you toe hands on the sea yeah I totally support you thinking that I think that it's a little easier because
00:20:39
Speaker
I've seen the movies several times over the years before we are at the point that we are now. So like I'm holding on to like the fondness for it and I can separate it like this much from yeah what's happening now. But I agree that what is happening now is awful and infuriating and I like want to punch Nazis in the face and There are a lot of people out there that think that Tyler Durden was the hero of this story, and they are just so wrong, just so wrong. So this is not one of my highlights, but I don't think that this is a bad film, and I don't think that any of the design or anything is bad. I'm having a visceral reaction to art. And like, I don't have the right words for it. I have a lot of words, but they're not, even when I was like yelling at Phil, I was in this blanket and he was, I say yelling, we were having a conversation and I was heated about it. Cause like I came off this, but like he was making very fair points the same way that you are. And I was like, yes. And I recognize that and I agree with it. Damn it. But like, I recognize that you don't have to agree with me in any way. I don't expect you to. But it's, it's something that it's just like, I can't,
00:21:57
Speaker
verbalize all of my visceral responses to it and that's okay. But yeah the design unquestionably, beautiful, amazing. And on top of that, great that this also came out in 1999 when the Matrix came out because It's got the filter. I was like, this movie is as if these people were in the world of The Matrix, ah hundred but they did they didn't have amorphous and they weren't like important to some great thing. And they just know that the world is bugging. Like, you know, that they're just like working in this computer program that like isn't functioning right.
00:22:38
Speaker
I know, there's something in the water that year, like, yeah, it is really in the zeitgeist to be like exploring these really weird ideas. Everything's green and terrible and like here's all the warnings. Just really ill-fitting business casual. Oh my god. Like, okay, so the narrator, Edward Norton, we, when he's first in there, he's wearing, yeah, business suits, like, and he's working. Yeah, we're an insurance company and all of that, all of that entails.
00:23:05
Speaker
Yikes. And he's wearing a suit that when you first look at it, you're like, oh, it's a fine little suit. And then you're like, no, there's detail in what kind of suit he's in because it fits him. It's not super baggy, but there's nothing at all. all unique or interesting. It doesn't make him look good. It doesn't. It's not like tailored. It's like he went to men's warehouse and just got the size that fits his shoulders right out like the loosest act like the loosest Oxford.
00:23:38
Speaker
shirt that will just like hang up his body like no yeah no contour no shaping like no beautiful drape to the face just everything just like hangs on him and it tells us perfectly that this is a guy who has enough money to go get a relatively nice suit and like keep it clean and you know take it to the to the ah dry cleaner couldn't think of that word um and like maybe he'll iron his shirts or whatever but that he doesn't have any connection to anything around him like whatever clothes are he doesn't care it's just like you pulled it out of the closet and you put it on it's like
00:24:16
Speaker
which is interesting because he spends so much time and attention on his like IKEA condom. Like there's yeah so much care and thought, but it's like when it comes to his personal, like he he does not have a personal style. And I think that it's like, and he also doesn't have a name, like he literally doesn't have a name.
00:24:36
Speaker
Yeah, the only reason I called him Jack, which like may or may not be true, is because throughout the movie, he is, as he's kind of like descending, like towards rock bottom, he keeps saying sometimes out loud and sometimes only in narration, I am Jack's. And then there's like a phrase. Yeah. Yeah. And as like ah borrowed from that medical journal that he's reading. Yeah. Wouldn't that be kind of neat if he was Jack? I am Jack's broken heart. um And that that is like detailing Yeah, i I noted that like for the first, like I don't know, like hour of the movie, the only thing you ever see him in is a white button-up shirt with the worst tie that you've ever seen, like the one like dark-colored suit, or you see him like in like just like a white t-shirt that he's clearly been wearing under it.
00:25:28
Speaker
It's certainly evocative of someone who has no identity and has no sense of self. Like it's, um, it's like we see him in a robe. Like, yeah, we do see him in that plaid robe once he moves in with Tyler. Yeah. And then that plaid robe ties him to Tyler visually, which is interesting, but it just cause of a color in color story. I guess I didn't really make that connection.
00:25:55
Speaker
Yeah, Tyler Durden, to to switch over to this character played by Brad Pitt. Tyler Durden's almost always wearing red. And I think Edward Norton, the narrator's robe, has red. So there's, and we never see him in that, like Tyler Durden's the one who's got that color and it stands out. And we never see the narrator in it except kind of like, I noticed it in this scene where he's, where all the, um I even forget what they're called right now. My brain is so tired. But the the basically like group,
00:26:29
Speaker
the militia space monkeys. Yeah, when they're in his house. Thank you. there is house And he's walking around going like, what is this? And they're like, yeah, we can't tell you anything, sir. He's wearing that robe. And there's like the red, like one of the Czech colors is red, I think.
00:26:43
Speaker
I feel like that robe in particular looks like something that like your dad would wear, like the yeah the dad, you know, like a dad. um So for me, I made more the connection that like, it's part of his... this is what I wear kind of like thing like this is, this is what you're supposed to wear more than that, especially since like in this, the first scenes where we see him wearing it, Tyler's in the like lavender fuzzy women's robe with like the cups of coffee, ah which like side note, that exact robe is used in Gilmore Girls on like Gilmore. And I've like, I noticed that like from watching
00:27:27
Speaker
rewatching Gilmore Girls and then like watching Fight Club like not maybe like a year ago and I was just like oh my god it's the exact same robe that Laura like Gilmore wears and I love that. So Gilmore Girls exists in this universe we'll just say that like it's either Stars Hollow or this horrible like other versions. This is pretty unique. Yeah you only get one or the other.
00:27:49
Speaker
I loved the way that that Tyler Durden is dressed. He is so perfectly the opposite of the narrator because the narrator has no personality. I feel like everything the narrator is wearing is like stinks of cigarettes and sweat. Yeah. He's got sweat stains at really like key moments that are just like horrible like pit stains and stuff. he's He does not care.
00:28:15
Speaker
he feels like yeah if you like put a finger down his cheek or in his vicinity that it would feel like that soap must feel like yeah and so yeah and like that house that they're living in of course like and so he just feels so everything just feels like it's like worn and like worn until it falls off kind of cuz he just doesn't care and then Tyler Jordan comes in wearing whatever clothes he wants cuz yeah at the end of the movie he's wearing this like great coat that is like a coat that Marla would be wearing.
00:28:47
Speaker
Yeah, big furry number. Yeah, where it's kind of that like security in himself that's like, yeah, that's regardless of gender, like he'll wear women's clothes and it doesn't matter kind of thing. And so there's so much freedom for that character to yeah have a lavender robe to have these like dramatic collars or these like slick leather jackets and look like he's going to a club or Yeah, it's all very 1970s.
00:29:13
Speaker
ah yeah it was mostly um i read So our designer for this movie is Michael Kaplan, who we previously met last season ah because he designed Star Trek, the 2009 JJ Abrams reboot. And he's also done several David Fincher movies.
00:29:31
Speaker
um and anyone who's seen Blade Runner, 1980s, Blade Runner, he was, that was his first credited costume
Character Analysis through Clothing
00:29:40
Speaker
design. So this man came out of the gate with like genius. So like, thank you. it's So I do want to say about his CV, he did the last Star Trek trilogy, right? But he also did do- I don't think he did, did he do all of them?
00:29:57
Speaker
He did. He did Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, and The Rise of Skywalker. Oh, that's Star Wars. Star Wars, sorry. Star Wars, sorry. My god, Star Wars. I probably did. My mouth is no longer in my control. I'm yelling for too long. But he did the Star Wars trilogy, and so, like, love those. But he also did, I don't know if you remember this, Geely? That movie? Like, Jennifer Aniston. Not Jennifer Aniston.
00:30:21
Speaker
Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. And he also did um Burlesque, which just gave me a giggle, because that's so different than so many of these things that he does. We're like, Star Wars, all these things, he can do it all. He can do anything, you put him to he can do it. um So I just like loved going through his IMDB because it's like ping pong, pong pong, pong pong, pong pong, like so many different styles. Just whatever you need.
00:30:51
Speaker
He can do it. so um But I did read that he did thrift or ah initially thrifted ah all of Tyler's clothes, which I think is great because it like it communicates that this is someone who will literally wear anything that he feels like it. He's very like free and open and also it's like It's sort of like a rejection of capitalism. like He's not going to the mall. He's going to the thrift store, which like um really supports his character um ethos, his ah manifesto bullet it points.
00:31:31
Speaker
perfect word manifesto. It supports his manifesto. He's a visual manifesto of like, I reject XYZ. It's everything that he wears. I was excited to see. It was just like so great because, yeah, the world is just so drab and so sad. Like, it's so very, it's like with The Matrix when we talked about it, where it's just so cool to see when somebody has the ability to be able to control the color palette tightly.
00:32:01
Speaker
yeah And like the color palette feels very controlled in this which to to like underscore the drudgery of regular life. Yeah, to have Tyler tyler turton come out and just be like peacocking in like the craziest like outfits that like elevate him. um It's just so much fun. And he is like a pretty good visual compliment, pretty good. He's a perfect visual compliment to Marla who also stands out yes unlike anybody else.
00:32:31
Speaker
also in like very thrift and vintage heavy clothes. like Everything looks like they like they found it. like I know the article I was reading from Michael Kaplan said that I think more of Tyler's clothes did have to be custom made.
00:32:49
Speaker
then you might think because of stunt work and needing to have multiple versions of it which makes sense but I think the initial items came from like thrift and vintage and secondhand and then maybe were like recreated I think.
00:33:05
Speaker
Like what a fun project as like a stitcher, i know you know, to like recreate a bunch of vinches vintage stuff. and That's just like a fun work assignment. Because it's all like so mishmashed, but it's like, yeah, let's try to find or let's order fabric that is so like that matches this other fabric, like finding the same buttons. Like that's, it's a lot of like archeology, if you will. It seems like a really fun tour.
00:33:35
Speaker
It's, it's crazy how much I just don't like the smoothie, but I love the design of it. It's just, it's like a smoothie that you need to like watch on meat or something. I looked away from it sometimes because I was crocheting, so I could keep my blood pressure down. If you think I'm a hysterical person, you're correct.
00:33:56
Speaker
It's just so weird because I'm going to seem so too faced where it's like, Lord don't like, and i i I have the feelings I have, but like the design is just, you really want, the movie is so dark. You and I were talking about that because of the lighting in your house and being able to see the screen. The movie is so dark that it's like at certain points I did want to get closer to the screen. I also am so due for an eye exam that I'm like,
00:34:20
Speaker
Blind as a bat. It's like, I just want to like, what is that? I want to see it closer. Yeah. um It's so hard with these, it's like these gritty, like gritty grimy movies. I'm like, you can still have lighting in gritty grimy situations. I still understand it's night. We get it. We understand. like god But it would be nice to actually see what is happening in the movie. Yeah. But like, oh my God. love Back to Marla real quick.
00:34:49
Speaker
I loved every instance of Marla's hair because it was like a character on its own. It was just like, it was like a bomb going off and I loved it. And when she had her like sad ponytail with like three wisps of hair, I'm just like, what do I do? The unicorn horn. I was like, oh my God. What is the point here? I don't know exactly what she felt like.
00:35:16
Speaker
aside from exactly who she was, you know, in in the movie, but it's like she felt kind of like a vampire, you know, because like she had There was logic in the clothes that she was wearing, and it was like yeah her logic, and it felt like somebody who doesn't dress you know the the way that like most people dress, but like has an incredible closet full of weird stuff that she's just stealing from laundromats and probably you know buying from other places.
00:35:48
Speaker
and um getting for one dollar from the thrift store. It's one of the first times that the narrator sees her at the um support the different support groups. And like we get this like great angle, like reveal, where we see this hat that she's wearing. Beautiful 40s, swooped. And she's smoking under it.
00:36:14
Speaker
And she has this great coat that like matches it. So she's just like kind of this like, it's it's yeah the same logic that like creates our visual language for vampires where they just kind of like stand out in time, you know, because it's like she just is dressing with a different sensibility. Yeah, and like she just stands out and then sometimes fades in, in weird moments and sometimes the only thing that like is plucking her out is like her crazy hair and then like you look at her more and like she's wearing like a bridesmaids dress at one point. yeah I was just like oh my gosh you're killing me Marla. And it's like it was kind of fascinating to watch and be like oh yes there was a time when going to the thrift store getting like weird vintage stuff and wearing it was not cool was yeah
00:37:09
Speaker
uh not a desirable look like when it was addressed for one dollar because nobody wanted it as opposed to now where it's like its own cottage industry to like thrift stuff which is basically like buying something that's like 10 years old uh from target and like reselling it um listen madness insanity like No, your vintage clothing is supposed to have like this chunky metal zipper that's slightly rusted so that when you zip it up your back, you can feel every tooth in that zipper unless you repair it and fix it. like da Whatever.
00:37:51
Speaker
But Marla feels like that rotten thread and the seams are supposed to be like pulling apart. Like that is the world that Marla is living in is like the world where the vintage clothes were discarded. And that's like what she's getting because of, you know, economic reasons. She does not have money. She's not a rich person.
00:38:10
Speaker
and like wearing those vintage items was cheap at that time. Now it's like insane how much money people pay for vintage items. like Not that they're not worth it, but no like if you made the movie now, you'd have to find a completely different visual language for Marla because that idea doesn't work anymore because it has become trendy and associated with people who do have money in order to dress like that. Like you
Themes of Identity and Control in Fight Club
00:38:37
Speaker
can't send the same message now that you could then, you'd have to find a different way. Yeah, you'd have to do it a different way with like maybe a vintage piece, but it would have to be like a story is like it's handed down, like this is my dad's jacket or something, you know? Yeah, like it would have to literally be like falling apart or something in order to like give that impression.
00:38:57
Speaker
freakggin love I loved. I costume so much. And she had like, I feel like there were a few pieces that had beading and like, you know, just like things that caught light. And so she felt like this magpie. And so she just, she felt like she was a realized, but very flawed, um of course, but like a realized like magpie, where she just like had all these things that that made sense to her because she just picked things that she liked and then she could pair them together. But it was like in this world of of drudgery and then Tyler Durden with his like 70s influence like vintage dad club golf balls and then Marla with her like magpie little shiny bits and like yeah
00:39:46
Speaker
wispy dresses and think and wispy unicorn form and ponytail. And wispy hair and wispy smoke coming out of our cigarette. Yeah. Like everything in this world, all of it, even the shiny things, the shiny things felt kind of like a desperate attempt because everything has this overlay of green so that it all feels like it's at the same level of like sick decay. Yeah. Decay. and And so it's just like,
00:40:15
Speaker
It would be cool to see some photos that don't have the green overlay just just for my own eyes. but Yeah, just some like fitting, some like promotional or fitting photos. like What is it? What are those clothes? What's happening? yeah but like It, it was so striking that even in that language of the world, it feels like Marla's like still like kind of army crawling through the mud to like be like, I have an identity. I look forward to bright things. Like, even though she's constantly talking about death and what's the point of anything, she's still making that effort to be somebody.
00:40:55
Speaker
even if that's like like the bottom of the barrel Marla, you know, which is how the narrator kind of talks about her sometimes. It's like, ugh, why do you want to be around her when he's talking to Tyler? And if once you like understand um that Tyler is like a projection of who the narrator wishes that he could be, it makes sense why he is attracted to someone like Marla because she has some vitality, even if she's a deeply flawed an individual who's in kind of desperate circumstances. Like she does have
00:41:30
Speaker
a life force and she does have like a strong will. And so like once you understand that Tyler Durden is who this guy wishes that he could be, it makes sense that he'd be wanting to be around someone like Marla who has a sense of self and has an identity and has a little bit more going on than like the worst shirt tie combinations you've ever seen like it. He just looks like a wet, he just looks like a wet sock. Like it just, it's so perfectly executed. And everyone else, like you're right, like the color palette is really tight in this movie. Like it's very drab. There's not even like Brad Pitt's clothes stand out as like the most like ostentatious, but they're not even like that extreme in terms of like what colors they are. There's just yeah so little color in the rest of the movie that his like
00:42:29
Speaker
His color is like deliberate in how it comes at you. But yeah, it's not like because also the the overlay and everything, but it's not so saturated. So it's not like he he's stands out in that way. He stands out from the world, yes, by having more interesting clothing and more color, but he's not like, yeah, electric. And his it's his personality and his like his mess that is the electricity.
00:43:00
Speaker
and sort of like sheer magnetism of Brad Pitt at this time. Yeah, the cult leader. Unfortunately, like an extremely handsome and charismatic figure at this time, like as a human being. so um Which is also another thing where I was like, you're stupid face. like You could not make me happy while watching this movie. And that's just, you know, just like, oh, in that thing, too. do We need like a super cut. That's just like the scenes with Marla and no one else. Oh, my God, I, I do love that even though um the narrator
00:43:41
Speaker
is pretty like limited with like you know color palette for a very long time and stuff, and like with items. He's not traveling the world the way that Marla and um Tyler Durden are. We do see him falling apart. like The clothes that don't fit him, don't suit him, even though they do like fit, he's wearing them, but they have no personality, they have nothing. The more settled he gets,
00:44:09
Speaker
in the, the violence of the fight club. Yeah. The more his clothes are like almost like fighting to get off of him, you know? Cause like his shirt is like so messy and like it's not buttoned. He's putting no effort into it because blood on it. Yeah. It's, it's like he's treating it like a snake skin that he's like slowly sloughing off. yeah And it just,
00:44:38
Speaker
Cause like he just has that like, yeah, wet sock feeling the whole movie. And then it's like, it just, it's like the clothes are like, I don't even want to be here anymore. You know? And it's, yeah and then, and then he like turns a corner and it's just interesting to see how much of a story you can tell with business.
00:44:59
Speaker
casual. like I know, because it's not something you think like, oh, it's like you think it can communicate like one thing, but that's not true. It can communicate like way more and way different stuff than you think. And like, it's again, like going back to like the matrix, like it's used in the same way in the matrix. Like I was thinking about it while watching it this time that like, you know, we've talked in previous episodes about how ah people like falsely use um like corsets to be this like symbol of repressed feminine, you know patriarchal, whatever. But I think that in the 20th century, the like suit and tie is like the male
00:45:45
Speaker
version of that where we go back to that well constantly as like a white collar oppression blah blah blah sad man forced to sit in sad cubicle and not have like a a life or any whatever agency like it's that is the image that we use as like a shortcut and like it's so stinking effective and once you start learning like the history of clothes and you understand that yeah in the 20th century in a little and Like whatever that duration that kind of still continues, men's suits are getting more exciting a little bit again because there's like reaching back into the past of like different lapels, different colors, different colors.
00:46:34
Speaker
different you know closures, ah waistlines, like all those things. But like when you look at, we're going to go the binary of gendered clothing because that is how so much of clothing history is. When you look at like women's clothes through history, there's so many shapes, there's so many fabrics, there's so many colors, there's so many different things that not only dictate class and occupation, but there are so many embellishments that allow for some form of individuality across classes. But men's clothing, yeah, for such a long period of time, men's suits,
00:47:14
Speaker
are so related to each other for over a century now, like quite a bit. It's like two centuries, a century and a half. Very little changes. It's length, color, cuff, width. It's very specific, minute things. And so yeah, that shortcut of like, look at this.
00:47:40
Speaker
stupid suit and how trapped he is in it because he can't even like put anything like he's not even getting a tie. That's like an exciting tie to him. You know, like his boss even doesn't have exciting ties. He has like, oh, it's this blue tie. So it must be this day of the week. Yeah, I wear it every Tuesday or whatever. even Yeah. Even his boss isn't showing any personality. Like the expectation is that your personality is this beige like nightmare.
00:48:09
Speaker
and but so this It's gap prison.
00:48:15
Speaker
It's just like it's it's so effective and we all know what that feels like. It's a universal, I think, understanding because like across cultures, color means different things, but we all look at a sad suit and we all go, I don't want to wear that.
00:48:32
Speaker
but no That is like a symbol that you gave up your like dream of being like a cowboy or an astronaut or whatever. It's like I wanted to be a DJ. We don't need more DJs. There's just like just nothing there and yeah this is this is a movie where even though on first look, for first um digest, it is so drab and heavy and sickly, you are understanding every story that every single piece of item, or a piece of item, piece of clothing comes across the screen. You're understanding the story that it's telling you and you're understanding every single thing that it's telling you about everybody who walks in front of the camera. And I just like,
00:49:21
Speaker
you know, props to Michael Kaplan because this is just as deliberate as like a Blade Runner or a Star Trek. Like, there's...
00:49:33
Speaker
it just like it makes you so sad. And like, I love, I love, yeah, like I said, I love the clothing that Marla wears, I love the clothing that Tyler Durden wears, but they still make you sad because of how heavy they all feel. They are not, you know, like, and that's the color, right? The color.
00:49:52
Speaker
story of the movie. The color world. yeah the color world it's all yeah Even though they are bright things or that they have something visual visually interesting, they're still a part of the world and they still have that heaviness to them.
00:50:05
Speaker
yeah And then we move into like project mayhem, which yeah completely 100% strips your personality away from you. And like the clothes are a huge part of that. And it's like dictated by Tyler, what you can bring. It's two pairs, black pants, two black shirts, two pairs, black socks, two, whatever black, is it black underwear? I don't know if they specify, but like,
00:50:32
Speaker
There are black boots like there's a list of these are the clothes that you wear so it's like Integral to the story and it's so funny to me that people would watch this movie and like look at project mayhem and be like Ah, yes. Here is my chance to express my individuality by giving up my identity, my name, my ability to question authority and my free will. Like, how can you think that that is supposed to be portrayed as a good thing in this movie? It's crazy. And i I think that therapy corner on Fox set.
Power Dynamics and Moral Ambiguities
00:51:14
Speaker
I love my brother.
00:51:17
Speaker
Do I have his permission to mention this? No, I won't name any names. He's young, he's 18, and he was considering joining the army. And anybody can have any feelings that they have about that. But I think that a lot of people would understand being reticent and upset in the year of our Lord 2025, where we are politically, who is now leading our country, et cetera. And I feel like this movie Part of my like crazy reaction to it is the same reaction that I had to that information because just what you said is exactly the thing and that's why I'm so like upset is because like my brother is that younger generation that has been affected by people who do see this and see the stripping away of any potential
00:52:14
Speaker
personality whatever and interpret that as being powerful because you have the weapon or whatever, you know, like you're going to do this stuff and that's So,
00:52:32
Speaker
and so it's like, yeah, you and I, we see this, we we see it through not only watching it, you know, however we're interpreting it, all those things, but we're seeing the clothing alone, Project Mayhem, stripping away everything that makes anybody themselves and just turning them into a faceless mass that is working towards one goal, that is showing how indoctrinated that they are, that like,
00:52:57
Speaker
you know, they can't have anything that is their own. They literally say, in Project Mayhem, we don't have names. They don't, like, the characters don't have names. Like, I don't know what was written in the script. Like, the characters, like, who's talking? The characters, guy one, guy three, like, is having a number more. Wouldn't that be great if they just, like, cut the script up and just handed you your piece and said you're number one, two, three, four? Yeah, it's just crazy. And so it's like, it is so effective. Like we've had so little individuality in the narrator and then it's like the impression that he is pushing is to strip even that away. And it's like seeing the scene where he's in like in the headquarter of Project Mayhem and he's like just drinking and he's like, what is it? What's happening? And he's wearing the robe.
00:53:50
Speaker
yeah And he's walking around these people in a robe looking like a crazy drunk dad, like in his boxers. and That was a very striking visual there because all of a sudden he is unique in this pool of lack of, you know? And this is like, you you know, one of the times where we see him stand out and it's like,
00:54:13
Speaker
Oh, no. And I do think that, like, for me, what I took, like, even the first time that I saw this movie, what I took from all of that is that, like, once you start, like, going down that road, that, like, fascist anarchist in, like, the negative idea of anarchist collective kind of thing is, like,
00:54:42
Speaker
I do think that that Tyler, the narrator, whatever, loses control of that organization. He is not able to tell them what to do by the end of the movie. And i to me, that's like a lesson in once you start people down this like violent terrorist path, like you can't put the genie back in the bottle. Like you can't contain and control those people anymore once the idea has taken control of them. And so it's like when he has the realization that like, I don't actually wanna do this anymore, it's too late because those people have taken his ideas to heart. And there's nothing that even he can say as the leader of that organization that will change their mind and stop them from doing this. Like they're willing to commit acts of violence against him
00:55:41
Speaker
to prove The point that he's told them earlier like he loses his control over the organization completely and so like I think that it's I don't think very many people who took the wrong lessons from this movie like Understand that this movie is telling you that like once you start these like terrorist Fascist cells like you don't even get to control them anymore. Even if you're the leader like they're on that road. It's too late. The train has left the station. And I don't think that that's something that people like really grapple with with this movie that much. Yeah. And I think that they don't grapple with it because at the end, after the narrator shoots himself and
00:56:26
Speaker
the the hallucination is is over. The Project Mayhem members who have brought Marla to him, um that's why I said like his power is not completely gone, because they deliver her to him. And then they're like... Does he ask him to?
00:56:47
Speaker
I think so. No, he tells her to get out of town and get away from us. But the hallucination still exists. The hallucination is still doing shit. So I think that the Tyler Durden said bring her to me. So because he's not gone yet.
00:57:02
Speaker
So they bring her to him, they express concern. They're like, oh my God, are you okay? Like, whoa, did you, what happened? So he is a figure of legend to them. And yes, he has lost control. The train has left the station. It's a go-in and there's the momentum has built, but he has reached this level of like still alive martyrdom because every time he's committing violence on himself or whatever, they're like, holy shit, you know, he just keeps building the myth of himself in front of them. And then I think that what helps people not realize he still has power
00:57:47
Speaker
But it's not the power that he had when he was like in it with Tyler Durden, you know, um is because even when the Project Mayhem guys are getting into the elevator to leave, one of them says, man, that's one tough motherfucker. Like they still respect him.
00:58:04
Speaker
Yeah, but I He might not be able to give- He doesn't translate into controlling what they do. And that's what I'm saying. He might not be able to control what they do, but he still is this figure of legend. So he's not completely devoid of that yet. He's still in this like liminal space of having almost like ah like a spiritual effect, you know what I mean? Without being the Tyler Durden that he was before.
00:58:30
Speaker
Yeah, but I think that that is based on the things that he's done in the past. like Going forward, like in the last like chunk of the movie, when he asks people to do things, they don't do it. like i don't They don't do it, but they're still i honoring him. I don't remember him.
00:58:52
Speaker
I think that there's a big difference between having like this sort of legendary status and being in charge of an organization of people. So agree if he's transferred into that legendary status, that doesn't allow him to do anything with these people. they do Whatever they think that he wants and he can't persuade them to change course So I think I think that that to me that means that you don't have power anymore So I think that we like agree about it But to me it means that you don't have power and to you it means that you still have some power I think yeah, I think that I'm just like not fully convinced that that power is fully gone completely completely
00:59:39
Speaker
Um, and that's okay. That's an interpretation of it because the, we both agree he's past like the apex of that control. It's just, I don't think that he's at the end of it yet, you know? And so like, it's just, it's a weird space for that character to be where he's no longer a part of the organization, but he is like the saint of that organization. And like, I'm just like seeing in front of my eyes when he's shot himself in the head and Marla,
01:00:08
Speaker
is being delivered to him like a package of like, you know, let's keep it the socks. Like she's just being delivered to him. And she's like, what the hell is going on? What the hell? Or what did you do to your face? Yeah, I need to watch that again, because I didn't remember him asking them to go get her. I don't know that we see it the same way that we don't see Tyler Durden getting that house, but we understand that the narrator has been living in that house because like all that lost time.
01:00:34
Speaker
before we're like in the the movie really like he was in that house is Tyler Durden so there's tons of stuff we see like all those plans that Tyler Durden was making behind his back to if I ask you this question don't tell me anything he's there's been all this stuff that he hasn't the narrator as we see him hasn't been aware that he's been doing. So like, right he's spiraling. And he's trying to get the spiral back because he's understanding that there's a spiral in the first place now. But like, I think that one of the last things that Tyler Durden does before he kills the hallucination is be like, bring her back to me. And it's like, Jesus Christ. So when she's there, and then he's, she starts like, packing his face. but I just
01:01:20
Speaker
There's like something that can't be cleaned. Nothing in this movie is clean. That is not helpful. I don't think that it's helpful for her to do that. This man's going to die of sepsis. You know what I mean? But like, there's something he says that made me laugh out loud and it's just even him commenting on like,
01:01:37
Speaker
like saying like, yeah, I did it myself, whatever. But he just made me laugh because I was like, this is just crazy. But like, he's kind of accepted like the amount of power that's left his hands. He's like, well, we're here now. And at least I'm not seeing.
01:01:51
Speaker
Tyler Durden's face anymore, right? And so he's, he's almost like relieved. Like this is the first time I think we've seen this character. No, it's not almost really, he is relieved. Like, he's relieved. He's, it's like after the breath. And he's like, it's all just gonna blow up. It's okay. And like,
01:02:09
Speaker
But he's got this hole in the face, and Marla's like a wet cat. Like, why did you spray me with water? What did you do to your face, packing it with, like, this dirty gauze? I don't know. One of the things that I think is really interesting is that in the book, it doesn't end the same way. Like, it's um it's actually, like, Marla comes with people from one of the support groups to help him Like without like it's and they come independently Mm-hmm to come help him and they prevent the explosion from happening in the book and I think that it's an inch more Like maybe if that was the ending maybe I don't know if it would change how you feel about the movie but I think it honestly more of a message about like community and like the community and emotional connection that he's able to find with people being more of a salvation than yeah
01:03:09
Speaker
destruction. I think that that um that would absolutely have changed it because like the visual of the buildings blowing up where is my mind the pixies the two of them holding hands that is a strong beautiful visual like yeah I yeah if you if you saw like Anytime you see that, you will remember that forever. like It's a great a great visual. I think that I was still so spit and mad because I was like, it just feels like more or less just. and I know we probably disagree on this and I i can't necessarily, I don't think we should like argue about it.
01:03:47
Speaker
I'm already arguing about everything. but it just like My interpretation of Marla is that like is basically how the story is told on film. Do you know what I mean? like It's kind of the choreography of how she's used makes her feel like a prop in his life. you know like we We are doing the work to see her as like a full human, and so when she's delivered to him,
01:04:10
Speaker
It feels like she didn't choose that. Like she's just a stand up prop in his development and that's what I don't like about that. Exactly. Like she is just this like colorful whatever the like and so that's why I hate that whole like 15 seconds. Don't open your mouth or move.
01:04:34
Speaker
who i I'm going to disagree, but I don't we don't need to get into it. I disagree. I know that you disagree because I mentioned that before and you disagreed that and that's totally fine. And I get that. It's just I think that yeah, if the ending if I had known that ending in the book, even if I just know that it existed that Marla had made a choice. Yeah.
01:04:54
Speaker
then I would have been like, okay, then it's more like two flawed people. It's just like the the storytelling is so very, it is what it is, it's so very male. I will agree that Marla doesn't get like yeah marla doesn't get enough, um she doesn't get enough screen time, but I don't view her as like a female prop character.
01:05:18
Speaker
I don't know if I can even really articulate why I don't see her that way, but I don't see her that way. I think I'm in the same place where it's like, I do, but I can't quite articulate it. I think that she has more awareness of herself than is often awarded a manic pixie dream girl. So I think that that interpretation of her is totally fair.
01:05:43
Speaker
But I do think that she has more of like a clear understanding of what she's what situation she's put herself into. yeah So I think that there's room to interpret her both ways.
01:06:01
Speaker
Yes. And so my my issue is with the narrator. It's not necessarily with her because the whole time she's very aware of herself. She's aware that this is bad for me and that she gets right back into it in the diner. She's like, I don't want to do this anymore. My thing is that right before, like in in the lead up to the end of the movie, when we're seeing that the narrator is understanding that Tyler Durden is him and that he has been losing time and hallucinating and that he is responsible for all this and he looks over at the cooks and they all nod at him like all this stuff and he's like clean food only like oh my god but that he says to her
01:06:43
Speaker
don't open your mouth or move. And this is when his character is coming into the awakening of, like, everything I've been doing is, like, bad. He hasn't let go of it yet because he's still, like, be this prop for me. Like, shush. I like you, but I only like you when you're not moving and you're not speaking. Like, it's just... I don't interpret that comment that way. And that's totally fine.
01:07:05
Speaker
I think he finally understands the full extent of how he's been interacting with her at that point. like And so I don't think that he's telling her to be a prop in that moment. I think that he's finally like, oh, I can i finally understand what our relationship has been.
01:07:25
Speaker
And I could actually talk to you about it as like not a hallucination. I'm not saying it's great, but I don't interpret him telling her that he needs her to be a prop in that moment and that he doesn't want to hear what she has to say. I think it's like he finally knows what he could say to her and he does dismiss her in like the way that he says that but I don't interpret it as him telling her that he likes her only if she's quiet. I don't like that his like I'm aware of these things and I'm coming to whatever this awareness and like this clarity
01:08:03
Speaker
has to have him be dismissive of her. Do you know what I'm saying? like And then she's still being delivered to him at the end. like it's in With his like awareness and trying to now divert from this like masculinity, it seems like an opportunity for him to communicate in a way that is diverging from that masculinity. But instead, the way that he's talking to her in that moment is still continuing on, even though we're seeing him do other actions to try to stop this madness or whatever. Does that make sense? And so that's why I have the feeling that I have about the end of it, where I'm like, oh because it's like, yeah, I mean, and I think that you get the resolution from the hand holding that I don't get because of this conversation and it all happening so close together.
01:08:52
Speaker
I don't think that this movie ah provides anyone with ah any, I don't think that there is much resolution and I don't think there's any heroes in this film. like no i I don't want to be portraying myself as being like, his relationship and the way he relates to Marla is totally fine because I don't think that. So I just need to be na day very clear about that. But like I think that what I...
01:09:17
Speaker
ah Unfortunately, what I appreciate about this movie is that it is and ambiguous about everything, and I think that it's very morally ambiguous in terms of like how some of the characters interact with each other, like how he interacts with Marla. I don't like it. I don't think that it's great. I do think it is partially the limitation of the conversations we were ready to have in 1999. So like that that's all like part of it. But I i do think that...
01:09:51
Speaker
I don't have to agree with it to interpret it that way. Like, I'm not co-signing what he does, and I'm not co-signing how he treats Marla, and I'm not co-signing. And in no place do you feel like you are co-signing it. OK, good. I just want to be clear so that no one listening thinks that I'm like, it's fine. OK. I'm being super clear. It's that I'm just, I think, just trying so hard to, like, run into the girl. Like, trying to verbalize, like, why I'm not getting to the same place.
01:10:20
Speaker
Yeah, and I don't think that you're wrong for being in that place. i think No, and I don't think that you're wrong for yours either. Probably more correct than I am about all of this. No, it's just it's so frustrating that this is one of those ones where it's interesting that we can have this like impassioned conversation about it. But I also at the same time can't put a finger on like I can, but I can't put a finger on the things. You know what I'm saying? Like the interpretations.
01:10:43
Speaker
And so like this is a very strong film, regardless of how you walk out of it. yeah it is it is such Because this left such a massive impression on both of us, a different impression. But we saw this when we were 11 or 12. No, I was like 15 or 16. You were a 15 or 16-year-old. But like we saw it still like in that same range of development. It was a part of our formative film.
01:11:08
Speaker
you know, experience. And so like our brains were still developing and and like the internet was still a babe as we know it now. um But it's like it's I recommend that anybody see it.
01:11:25
Speaker
because I think it's worth having these conversations and it's worth trying to investigate whatever response you have to it. Because like I was just like yeah so heated and like I think it's really an important film, movie, whatever, how high-brow you want to get about it.
01:11:43
Speaker
to have these conversations and to talk about how did the costumes affect you? Did you have that kind of same like unified experience as like watching The Matrix and getting that language from? It would be so interesting to hear other people's opinions, but it is I, even though I don't want to watch it again, don't make me. I still...
01:12:05
Speaker
I still say watch it because I do think it is one that everybody should watch. I don't even know if like a parable is the right word, but it is like this the fairy story in a way where it's talking about so many things and it's it's got this main character who's a little bit of an NPC who's aware of himself.
01:12:26
Speaker
um going through all of these different things and then you can look at the art of it and talk about it. Like it is so effective in that way and the costumes too are so effective about it. Like I want to know everything about the costumers had to make reproductions of all those vintage pieces. It's so funny like thinking about the making of movies like this where you're like yeah and then they called cut and everybody like went and had a bagel together and like sat at like a folding table.
01:12:52
Speaker
leave some ping pong They like spit blood onto the floor and then they like, you know, got up and like switched the mouthwash and like sat in a chair. on We didn't even talk about all the blood. There's so much blood in this movie and like how many costume pieces must have had. Yeah, definitely. yeah There had to be so many multiples. multiples Because like it's not just Brad Pitt and Edward Norton who are getting the crap beat out of themselves. It's all these other guys in the fight clubs. yeah There's just tons of people. and like Smart move on the part of of Chuck Palinik. For thinking about the costumes for the inevitable movie adaptation to say you have to fight with no shirt and no shoes. like What a nice choice for your costume person to not have to have 3,000 bloody white t-shirts or something. I feel like you just then have to, like it's like spot clean the pants when you roll in the blood. like I don't even know. But there's also the the scene where um the narrator finally gets fired after he beats the crap out of himself in his boss's office.
01:13:59
Speaker
And he's walking out of the building, he's being walked out of the building by security and he just has this blood going down his face that's like black and thick and it's like disappearing into his clothes. And I was like, that is pretty striking. Damn. So nasty. It's so gross. And it made me so happy because like I, one of the things that just personally I really hate watching movies is when There's blood and it's so like bright red that it's um orange. i because it's that I want to be able to go that's barbecue sauce That's how that blood should look. You know what I mean? Like it should have some weight to it and it should not be cartoonish red because it's only like brighter when it's fresh but that stuff it's oxygen and oxidizes and changes and like
01:14:48
Speaker
Oh my goodness, it's like the indigo of the human body. yeah is to go For those not in the know, at first when it hits oxygen is green. Like if you do an ice and ice dye, it's green because the plant is green. And then as the oxygen turns it, it goes that blue. And that's what the blood should be doing.
01:15:09
Speaker
Chemistry. Chemistry. Biology. This is the first time that I watched this and actually thought about the costumes, because again, second time I watched it. Well, yeah. I watched this like about a year ago with Jonathan, who had never seen it, despite like literally being the age group, because he was 19 when this movie came out and he had never seen it because he's like that's not for me that movie is not for me and I don't need it and I respect that opinion too I respect that opinion for people but that's yeah we watched it together maybe like a year ago and he was like well that is now a movie that I've seen and i had seen it too period
01:15:52
Speaker
There will be no ellipsis and no further clarification. I was like, wasn't it so crazy and interesting? And he's like, that is a film that I've watched. like it was not
01:16:05
Speaker
Jonathan, you are heard. Watching it as an adult is interesting. It's weird. Watching it in 2025 is probably ill-advised, so I apologize for insisting on it. Never apologize. I had you watching Hook and I was so satisfied about it. This is your turn. This is your turn.
01:16:26
Speaker
and it's like I am so excited that we we both work in the same field, but we can just like have so many different yeah responses and like experiences of similar things. like That's so much fun. because it's like If we were in a costume shop and if we were working working on this movie, we could be like, we get to make reproductions of vintage or we get to do all these things and distress like you know these like certain bloody pieces or whatever. And then we could also be like, this sucks.
01:16:59
Speaker
I don't want to work on that vintage one because I hate it. It's like in 1975 and I don't like that year, you know, like this song. Holly Esther and it's disgusting or whatever. We would be unified in that opinion. We would. We really would. But yeah, even though this is not a movie I ever want to see again, I love being able to look at it through the lens.
01:17:22
Speaker
of this, the narrative um language that we we both love to be a part of because it does give me a huge appreciation for it. And it gives me a lot of ins where I probably would have checked out. You know what I mean? Like it it helps me hang on. ah Even when I'm having the responses I'm having and interpreting or misinterpreting, you know, as I am, like there's still the ins because I'm still following this thing that is like telling a story.
01:17:51
Speaker
It is interesting because like yeah there are definitely movies that I'm like oh that movie is not objectively like not a good movie but the costumes are so good so I'm gonna watch it a couple times like there's there's so many you know like there can be movies where I'm like Oh, that movie was so terrible, but the costumes were beautiful. God damn it. like so you know like it's like a It's like you can enjoy it on multiple levels and it's ideal when everything meets together and you have a great movie that you like and also enjoy the costumes for. They don't all happen that way. In between, it's also great to recognize when it all works together perfectly.
01:18:31
Speaker
you just don't like it. Like you just don't, yeah you are transported into this really, let's just say it in some bummer of a place.
Preview of Next Episode on Batman Series
01:18:41
Speaker
It's a bummer. But we made it through, I think that it's important thematically that we fought during this episode. Like I think that that's part of the listening experience of this movie. So I'm glad that that is what happened. Well, yeah, like I'm glad that that I really am genuinely glad that in our experience of watching these things that we we just don't always have to agree and that we're not like just hyping something up and that we can talk about it and just be like, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but I don't like'm just like That's what I often feel. I can't talk about it. yet The more it gets that way.
01:19:23
Speaker
but I'm really glad that you had such strong opinions about it because I feel like most people are just like, I love Fight Club. And you can't really talk about it because they don't really have a lot to say about it. So I'm very thankful that you had such strong opinions about it because it did make me like think about. Yeah.
01:19:45
Speaker
my positions and whether they were defensible or not. Like I think that's good. Well, I just like I love that because you and and Phil agree. You're both in the same boat about this. And I love that. I love that there's I feel like you guys are able to approach this with kind of like a ah clearer mind. And I feel like it presses a button for me that I can't. Yeah.
01:20:06
Speaker
I can't watch it fully clearly as like an art piece. And so it's nice being able to hear your ah experiences and your interpretations because like I appreciate those things and they exist and they are true. And then it's like, but in my head, it's like, I don't have to be right. Do you know what I mean? It's just like, right damn, like i I wish that I could see it Um, fully the other way, cause I still can, but it's like, I just still have that, like, yeah, I don't know if you're wrong. I don't think I'm wrong. I don't think that you're wrong. I think that it all exists in the same place and it all can be true at once. And so it's, yeah, it's a perfect choice for having a bunch of different responses to it. I look forward to having more experiences like that in our, in our podcast, Eugenie. But next week. Yes. Well, how do you feel about this next one, though? The first time that I saw... So next week, we're watching two Batman movies. We're comparing and contrasting, as they used to say in school. So we're watching the 1989 Batman and the 2008 Dark Knight.
01:21:31
Speaker
And I don't think that I had ever seen the 1989 Batman like with any consciousness. I saw it like maybe like a year ago and I was like, wow, this is the most boring film I've ever seen. I did not like it. um I'm curious to watch it again with like a different headspace and see if I like it more. The Dark Knight I saw in theaters when it came out and I really liked it. And it really falls into the category of this movie, which is if you watched that movie and thought that the Joker was awesome, you missed the point. But I also think that movie is more confusing of that point than this movie was.
01:22:11
Speaker
Yeah. And I also, so like, I also kind of had a similar experience with Batman 1989, where it just kind of was like a fact to me where it's like, I would watch it and I'd be like, and that is Batman. And that is that, you know, I didn't have any depth of response. And also Batman as a character was just like, there's Superman, there's Batman, there's Catwoman, there's just superheroes. I didn't really think until I was like in my later 20s because of other people I was ah around who
Episode Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:22:43
Speaker
do love the superhero genre, who do critique it and look at it um from long-term comic use, reading and all that stuff, like deeper readings. I never really gave any of them deeper readings.
01:22:55
Speaker
And when the Dark Knight came out, I feel like this version of Batman, because it was a different version than we'd been seeing before. It wasn't cartoony. It wasn't any of these things. It actually left massive space for us to start talking about capitalism and propaganda and that Batman is a cop.
01:23:17
Speaker
And so I'm interested in seeing Batman 1989 and Dark Knight after having watched Fight Club kind of being in that headspace and watching them close together and seeing how that world is painted so differently because yeah Yep, yep And I haven't I don't think I've watched Dark Knight since I saw it in the theaters either So it's been a long time since I've seen either of them I might have seen it like once since then but like not like much closer to when it came out So yeah, I haven't seen it in probably like 15 years.
01:23:53
Speaker
Yeah, it's been a minute, so it'll be a different watch. Kind of like, like, Michaela Paz. So, ah yeah, our next episode is going to be very design heavy because there's a lot to talk about in the design of these worlds, but... Yeah, not light fair necessarily.
01:24:11
Speaker
No, but people always, yeah, I don't know. Batman is an interesting figure. He's so popular. He is yeah so beloved. He is so ah much part of people's like origin stories. It's crazy. Yeah. And so, yeah.
01:24:30
Speaker
This is going to be a good watch. I hope you guys join us. Yeah, please join us. ah You can follow us on social media also. We are on Instagram. We are on threads. I made us a Blue Sky account. If you understand Blue Sky, please explain it to me. I don't know how it works. I don't know how to find people on there. Scream into the abyss.
01:24:54
Speaker
Oh, January 2025. This is when we are recording this. Oh, what a new year so far. It's been a bit of a bang. ah Yeah, I feel like I'm going to end this episode in a very messy way because that's how I've been talking the whole time, just blam, blam, blam, blam, blam. So thank you very much for ah ah watching this and talking about it with me, Melinda.
01:25:18
Speaker
Yes, thank you for coming with us. ah And I apologize for bringing you on this journey. Never apologize. If they pressed play, they knew what they were getting into.