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Pleasantville- That Bullet Bra...!!
24 Plays2 months ago
Let's travel to a pretty suburban 1950's fantasy world full of NPC's as they discover free will. And I think we all know what a suburban fantasy of this time looks like (W H I T E). Truth, courage, art, and sexuality make the world transform from gray to technicolor. Grab your umbrellas, its getting stormy out.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120789/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_pleasantv
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-oct-23-ca-35478-story.html
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview of 'Pleasantville'
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome back. We are talking this episode about a little film from 1998 that was not a big deal. Didn't make any waves. Nobody talked about it. Nobody hear about it, which is why we are here to introduce you to a little known independent film, but didn't get much marketing or coverage with very little known stars at the time. 1998's Pleasantville, directed by Gary Ross, which is about two 1990s teenage siblings who find themselves transported to a 1950s sitcom where their influence begins to profoundly change that colorless, complacent world.
00:01:01
Speaker
And in case you did not pick up on my very loud sarcasm, which is my normal default tone, I was a kitten. It was a big movie. It was a new line, I think, and people talked about it a lot and still do. And yet I did read that it lost money at the box office.
Costume Design and Visual Elements
00:01:20
Speaker
That is just crazy. Also, I want to give you props for reading things. I read one article.
00:01:28
Speaker
Well, there wasn't much to read. That is from the IMDb trivia on the movie and looking at the box office information. But like there really wasn't much to be found in terms of like an interesting conversation about the costumes in this movie. Yeah, there's like I think the LA Times had a had a thing that came out the same year. And I did and i couldn't I got paywalled out of reading that. Well, that'll do it. I think that if ever I look up anything else, it will be paywalled after this time. So thanks.
00:01:57
Speaker
you likeonia o Yeah, I remember this like big time and it was the same year that Truman show came out. So it was pretty interesting having Truman show which we have talked about if you haven't listened to that episode.
00:02:11
Speaker
thumbs up, go give it a try. um But that is about someone in a TV show, which is actually real life, but a TV show built around his whole life, realizing that he is the subject of a TV show and trying to break out of that world yeah and the effects that it's having on him, et cetera, et cetera. And it has like a 1950s kind of but yeah like like in five not like Yeah, it's not a one hundred percent, but it's like 85% 1950s. Where it's like just structured like that kind of a show and everything's safe and secure and like the great American dream postcard.
Personal Reflections and Impact
00:02:49
Speaker
And then this one is the opposite where it's people from the capital R, capital W, real world, if you will, going into a show and then
00:02:59
Speaker
influencing that and the characters essentially becoming, I mean, already being self-aware, but not aware that they could do anything about it. And then yeah changing and evolving. And like, what a movie. Do you remember the first time you saw it? Oh, um, I think this might've been a video store rental movie for me.
00:03:23
Speaker
um i do also have memories of like watching it on like an afternoon weekend on tv kind of thing but i think i had already seen it at that point so i i did not see it in the theater but i think i must have rented it from the video store what about you i don't remember i i I have no specific memory of it. Like I could have seen it in the theater because I saw movies in the theater a lot. um brag But there also wasn't anything to do aside from like read at home or, yeah you know, rent a movie or go out, take a bus and go out and see a movie. So I could have seen it with my mom or I could have rented it. So either way, like pretty quiet experience. Like got in there somehow.
00:04:10
Speaker
Yeah. And like maybe even seen it on VHS like at a friend's house at a sleepover. Yeah. yeah Um, but I do remember cause 1988 was that, was that sixth grade? Yeah, I think like sixth grade. So sixth grade you're 12, like 11 turning into 12 and um, ish somewhere around there. Everybody's different, but like you're kind of, you're at that point cause like 10, 11 and 12 is where you're like becoming more,
00:04:39
Speaker
aware of things that are just outside of your personal sphere. Yes. yeah Like because you're reading more complicated books in school, you're having more complicated conversations and like, you know, hopefully your school's finally like teaching you some real history and not some like sanitized. Hopefully. hopeful And so dear God. And so it's like, not anymore. Jokes, all jokes. What a time.
00:05:06
Speaker
ah like No matter what your life experience is, you are growing. I think it's fair to say. So, like, no matter your level of privilege, et cetera, you are growing and you are developing, your brain is developing, and you're asking more questions, all of these things. And we had these movies coming out like this. Matrix is about to come
Cultural Impact and Media Consumption in the 90s
00:05:28
Speaker
out in a year. yeah um We had these movies at this time that were, and I mean, you can arguably say that, like, at any time you have movies coming out that are about
00:05:38
Speaker
the human condition. Of course, but these were ours. These were ours. And you also have some that are more theatrical or more artistically inclined to not necessarily about regular life. Yeah. And so you also have superhero movies now, which we didn't have as much. We had the first wave of the X-Men movies, for sure. And we had other stuff we were about to have. And Batman had been around, but it wasn't music.
00:06:09
Speaker
a massive genre on its own that was like multi-billions of dollars or whatever. Speaking of Juliana. Yes, speaking of Mizumam herself, same designer from from A Little Princess last week, Juliana Makovsky. She will go on to design all those Marvel movies that you're talking about. She will. And The Hunger Games, like she just... foot foot in that door yeah and then whole body hurled through it. She's like, I got this. But ah this was a time for us when we were like, oh, we can look at art and compare it to things that we know about life and it can teach us things. And so I remember in sixth grade, other kids in my class also seeing this and it being a topic of conversation, not just amongst adults, but amongst kids who are like,
00:07:00
Speaker
ah Did you see that movie? like What do you think that means? and like my you know Talking about the metaphor, the visual metaphors, etc. When they did this in the movie, it like made me think of this other thing that I know about. and You're like, whoa, because you're 12. It's the first time you're doing all that. This is crazy.
00:07:19
Speaker
the like you know, just, I don't know, it's just a different level. And so I do remember that. I remember the conversation about it and how it affected folks. And also we just, I don't know, we weren't like, I was seeing movies, but at the same time we didn't have streaming. We didn't have all this stuff. So it's like, if you didn't have cable TV or VHS is at home, or if you weren't renting something, you weren't constantly surrounded by media. Cause we also didn't have social media. And so right you would read a book and talk about it or,
00:07:51
Speaker
We can talk about it. it allowed I feel like it allowed stuff to stay in the cultural conversation longer because there was just less saturation of things to constantly be like pulling your attention like we have now. so it just like you This movie, even if it wasn't like financially successful, it could be talked about for like a few months after it came out.
00:08:17
Speaker
And it's also you didn't have the what we have of a luxury now which is just vomiting out your thoughts online immediately and then it's gone and you don't hold on to it yeah or you're like on a reddit thread chat like instead you had to talk about it with people.
00:08:33
Speaker
or put it in your journal, or if you were super technologically savvy at the time, you could find a message board. right talking yes But I didn't even know that message boards existed. I was pretending in chat rooms that I was a 45-year-old woman who drove a red ah Mustang. o It's all about the details. okay
00:08:55
Speaker
and so Crazy I had not seen this movie since I was 12 and so I are twelve or 12 or 13 like around there and so I Was just like and my husband hadn't seen it in a really long time and he sat down and he was like ruff ruff ruff I remember watching it and just getting so bored and then he was like Totally in it and I was like I think that you were only a bored because people were shoving down your throat This is a good movie. You have to see it. So the yeah when you were watching it then was that and but now that it was just like organically in your face, it was just like, oh my God, this is a great movie. And so I told you before we started recording, I didn't even take any notes. It just says Pleasantville. That's, listen, that says, it says it all. It says it all. What more do you need? Episode over, goodbye. I did, I did like look up something on Reddit and then I looked up, yeah, the the article in LA times and so on Reddit, cause I forgot that Don Knotts was in it.
00:09:52
Speaker
Yeah, me too. What a time this very famous actor who was in those 50 shows, being in this thing about 50 shows.
Influence of 50s and 60s TV Shows
00:10:01
Speaker
I was like, I was actually watching him at this time because of Nick at night. He wasn't just like, oh, this name from way long time ago. No, he was just there. Well, that was something that I was going to ask you about specifically was Nick at night because i I don't know of a time before Nick at night where those shows from that era were like accessible to our generation.
00:10:32
Speaker
like watching these 50s and 60s shows was not really a thing that I like knew about until Nick at Night, but like that was my first exposure to a lot of these weird sitcoms from though this time period. so i had I've mentioned it before, I'm sure. I had a lot of experience with like black and white stuff because um my mom wanted me to see Some movies that we could get at the library. So um the 1946 King Kong. Oh, yeah, the black and white. It's the 40s. Is it 30s? Yeah, with the black and white. Yeah, stop motion. I know there's I think it's 30s.
00:11:22
Speaker
Yeah. Cause I could probably look at our site at this device that we are looking at right now could look it up. Won't do it. We're not going to, but the black and white one, I watched that all the time. That was a VHS type that I owned. I had, um, they re-released in the early nineties on VHS, like a collection of Shirley Temple movies. So I had a bunch of Shirley Temple movies before they were colorized. So they were black and white and then some that were colorized.
00:11:49
Speaker
I had, of course, Wizard of Oz on VHS. And so I had these touch points that were older anyway. And like they were my, my grandparents' things and my mom's stuff growing up. So these, cause my mom was 40 when I was born. So she was a little bit older than other parents. So all of my references were older than most other peoples. I just like was kind of used to this stuff and like,
00:12:18
Speaker
You know, just even in conversation, Mary Tyler Moore would come up and then like watching, you know, Mary Poppins, you'd see, um, Dick Van Dyke. Dick Van Dyke. And then he had his own show. Yeah. And so it's like all this black and white stuff I was pretty familiar with. And then Nick and Knight just like rolled it in so that there's the Munsters and the Addams family and all these other things. And then it just like continued. Yeah. And I had this weird insomnia when I was a kid. So I would always just like middle of the night be watching some weird like 1950s or 60s show.
00:12:48
Speaker
And um so it's like little things were very familiar that we're not as familiar with other folks. And um yeah, it was cool that we had that. Like, yeah, mind you could talk about it. Yeah, like my weird Nick at night viewing didn't go back quite as far in like TV history like I don't think I've ever watched like Leave it to Beaver, which I think is obviously like a big influence on Pleasantville. Maybe I've seen like an episode of Lassie like here or there. I used to, but like not Lassie and Flounder. Holy Flounder. Oh, the but see like my naked night stuff was more like
00:13:31
Speaker
I dream of Jeannie, the Munsters, Bewitched, maybe a little bit of Gilligan's Island. It was more the 1960s, and I think that that influence is still evident in my personal taste. I don't see it. I don't see it at all.
00:13:51
Speaker
Yeah, it was like I'd be up at like two or three in the morning. And so that's when they would have the like black and white stuff, because they're like nobody wants one. And I'd be like, well, I'm here. And I also didn't like understand the structure of seasons in TV shows. This is very important for you listeners. So I just took them each episode like a movie. And I didn't understand that there were overarching connections between episodes. And like early shows didn't also have like a season long story. Yeah, they didn't do that. Yeah.
00:14:19
Speaker
So I was just like, I don't even know when this is, it's just leave it to Beaver. And so when this came out, I was like, Ooh, I understand so much of this. And like, also just what a cool premise.
00:14:34
Speaker
to like will' be given this crazy thing, which this is what i why I looked
Character Archetypes and Transformations
00:14:39
Speaker
it up. I was like, I do not remember Don Knotts being here at all. And I do not remember that he is basically this like, cause I looked it up on, I was like, who is the repairman? Like, yeah he's and people are so interesting on the internet. yeah we What are the takes about what he is? Well, it's pretty great.
00:14:58
Speaker
it's It's basically a study in comprehension. There's a thread on Reddit and um some people are like, trying to look deep into it and kind of missing it. And then somebody at the very end, like it's not that very long of a thread, and somebody at the very end just just starts, it's like Sultan of Snatch, great name. This thread is for six years ago. And they start their comment with, what gets me about this comment section is that people don't seem to clue into the fact that Don Knotts wanted them to change Pleasantville. So a bunch of the conversations before this are like, they're fucking it up and he wants, and they're like, no.
00:15:33
Speaker
He put them there on purpose and they're like, he's basically like a and um an archetype of like a trickster god, if you will, where it's like, yeah he reckon that's why he's there the second the remote breaks. He's obviously like an otherworldly figure. Like he's yeah not a flesh and blood human. That yes should not be a question. And that's what this person, Sultan of Snatch,
00:15:57
Speaker
And the very end of their they're treatise, if you will, is um in another version of this film, that character could have, quote, hosted the story in a Rod Sterling, Freddy's Nightmares sort of way. The character probably isn't even human. He's the wish upon a star that comes true. The magic fortune fortune that makes people swap bodies or turn into adults. What is he? Why is he? Who knows? This is a fable. He just is. He simply is.
00:16:24
Speaker
And so like somebody else was pointing out that he's like a trickster god, you know, which like there's no explanation beyond. He just finds things to fix people, like make them move forward. And that's what this is about, right? Is it like the brother and the sister are both very stuck And the brother and sister are played by Tobu Maguire and um Reese Witherspoon respectively. yeah And they're both very stuck in this archetype themselves. yeah yeah And they like can't imagine getting out of that or changing because like social pressure, whatever. Yeah, and so he's like the nerdy quiet guy who's obsessed with this 1950 show puts all of his like he's the person who's like dissatisfied with real life and thinks that like life in this fantasy is obviously going to be better because everything's perfect and it's not disappointing like reality. Yeah, everything is predictable. And ah she is the the girl who's like experimenting and like ah dating a bunch of guys and like very aware of her attractiveness and like, cho yeah, she has like a negative view about herself about like, what she's capable of doing. Yes. And kind of sees that. Yeah. And so like, it's also extra pressure on her because that's like an expectation from like, you know, if you're gonna
00:17:48
Speaker
be popular or cool, you're going to do X, Y, Z. And then this like Dawn Knots repairman comes in, gives them this magical remote and boomop they're in Pleasantville, which is a black and white TV show. And I did not look into the technical stuff of this because dear God, why do, why do research? Um, i guess this was a little bit I looked into it a little bit too, because I, in my head I had ideas about, I mean, like I don't,
00:18:16
Speaker
I'm not a filmmaker, FYI. Me neither. I don't understand the like technical special effects of making films. um i i was It was a couple years ago that I found out that um in black and white film, when it was originally being made, that and I don't know how long in cinema history this was true, but the makeup was like bonkers because you had to like color correct it.
00:18:40
Speaker
so that it would look normal. Yeah, a lot of design is like really goofy looking yeah in person, but like yeah looks good on on black and white like film. You have to like, you have to make some like weird color combinations in real life to make it look like pleasant and like my makeup. It's I think there was even like a trend of that online recently where it's like you'd have a blue light and a red light and you'd have like certain makeup on your face for the red light certain for the blue and it would disappear different lights the same in with for black and white and so. Something that I thought was interesting like way back when we were doing our like beginning of our sci-fi series um was like some little tidbit about um Edith Head, who's like you know one of the most legendary Hollywood costume designers of all time. But she had these like goofy little round glasses that she would wear that had like a smoky blue lens in them. And she wore them when she was working
00:19:38
Speaker
because they changed the color of things and it allowed her to see how things were going to look on camera in black and white when she's like looking at stuff in real life. and So it's like stuff like that that people ah would have to do in order to like know what it was going to be like at the final product without having to just do trial and error basically on camera.
00:20:04
Speaker
It was crazy and so there's a lot of thought into that and I because this was in the 90s and technology was very different it's like there were scenes that were black and white with people in color and so I didn't look if they were splicing like if they recorded you know both in color and black and white or if in some scenes people were wearing stuff And like in some scenes, a person is changing color. I don't know. There's so much. As much as I could understand it, um they filmed everything in color and used digital effects after the fact to
00:20:42
Speaker
turn things black and white, even the scenes where everything's black and white. They filmed it all in color and then used digital effects after the fact. um And then there were certain things that had to be done practically. ah Something that i I had known before watching it this time, but I was like really thinking about when I was watching it is the particular The scene where um Betty's character, the mom, has turned into color and she doesn't want people to know. So Tobey Maguire like puts makeup on her because her makeup is still black and white yeah to cover it up. And apparently the way they did that scene was that they used green makeup in the tone of like a green screen. Whoa.
00:21:31
Speaker
so that they could mark which part was going to be affected digitally later. but so like I'm imagining, because it's like a beautiful, quiet, like emotional scene between the two of them, and she's like looking like the Incredible Hulk. That's amazing.
00:21:52
Speaker
That is acting. That is drama. That is acting. And it is acting that everything was in color and they're just pretending that it's all black
Costumes Reflecting Societal Expectations
00:22:00
Speaker
and white. And like from theater, a few years back we did, ah well, when I was a student, we did a Music Man and rented some costumes, well, rented a bunch of Music Man costumes from Oregon Shakes, yeah and because they have like a set. and um I saw the production at Oregon Shakes. Yeah, and they have like the the set that we got was from ah a production where the design
00:22:26
Speaker
idea was basically, um, was basically Pleasantville. Yeah. And Pleasantville where it's black and white and dreary. And then the character comes and messes everything up and brings everybody to life. And they start in the second act to be wearing colors. So there's doubles of every single costume. The first one is all black and white and gray.
00:22:47
Speaker
and then the second is like all the different colors. Everybody's got different colors. so I saw that production and at Oregon Shakespeare Festival when it happened, and I was going to bring it up because yeah the the director notes in the program, I remember specifically, it was like because if if anyone listening to this has never seen a play, usually there's some notes from the director in the beginning that's like, this is why I wanted to do this and this is what I was thinking about, blah, blah, blah.
00:23:14
Speaker
the and like the entirety of the director's notes for that production was just him saying, I did not copy Pleasantville. I had thought of doing this like decades ago, and this is my first opportunity. like It was basically like a preemptive, listen, I did not steal this idea from Pleasantville. It's a metaphor that anybody could reach for.
00:23:36
Speaker
but it's executing it and like having the opportunity to execute it in a way that makes sense for your story that is the thing. like Exactly. and like this mute This movie does it so beautifully. like It looks great. The story like the the whole film, like all of it. like production design costumes, makeup hair, like it's all really beautifully rendered in this execution of the like black and white turning into color movie, like beautiful work, beautiful. And let's get into those costumes. So like when we are in the, I mean, keep saying real world, whatever, when we're in.
00:24:14
Speaker
outside of Pleasantville and we're in the world of origin for the brother and the sister, David and Jennifer, who become Bud and Mary Sue. um They are wearing just regular teen stuff, jeans, t-shirts. I think Reese Witherspoon has one of those chokers on at the very beginning which is cool. It's all very recognizable from when we were kids.
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah, it's just regular streetwear and like, you know, baby bangs, not baby bangs, like Betty page. wipy Yeah, the wispy precision things at the side of your face that have come back into style. So like, it's very, very, very 90s. They're very much kids of their time.
00:24:59
Speaker
And then we get sent into this hyper 1950s show where every point is pointy, every skirt has, you know, a little bit of support underneath it. yeah And I did read in, oh, so crisp, like it's Joan, Joan Allen, right? It's Joan Allen who plays Betty.
00:25:21
Speaker
Her dresses, her house dresses, like when she's cooking dinner, are insane. Like the circumference of some of these skirts do feel a little bit hyper reality yeah for the purpose that they're serving. So it's like, I would so i would think that the dress that Joan Allen is wearing when she's like cooking dinner and like, you know, doing housework would be like an outside like afternoon kind of dress. Yeah, it looks like, um yeah, like she should be going to like tea, like she's very done. And it's also an outfit that does not feel like it's fit for the circumference, like not the like area of the kitchen that they have. So it's like she has to like squeeze. full bit
00:26:07
Speaker
to like allow for the skirts to like go around things which is like it's a little bit dramatic but um and the infants are like sheer organza like there's nothing functional about nothing functional it's just specifically to look yeah like a postcard like everything just has to look perfect and even Toby McGuire's character at one point is wearing I think it's like even their second day there, maybe, where he's wearing like a t-shirt with like a button-up shirt and maybe like a sweater vest over that. And the button-up is open at his neck so that you can see the shirt underneath. And even the way that his collar is standing is so starched and so pressed that it does not read as lazy. It reads as very, very purposeful, but youthful, you know? Like he's just, he's a kid. He's not in an office. He needs to have space to do stuff. In the LA Times article,
00:27:00
Speaker
About this written by Betty Goodwin. Oh, she sounds like a character from way to go from 1998 in the article they talk about how ah there are some quotes from from our designer talking about ah How how structured all the underwear was and that the actors were a little ah shock shocked at how much structure that they had to wear. And Reese Witherspoon was like, do I really have to wear all that underwear? And the designer was like, yes, you do do. And like that there were padded out corsets to change your body shape a little bit. And I love that the article makes that sound so crazy. Like it's not going like, ever her it's just like, did you know? And it's like, no, that's how clothes used to be. You used to ah augment the clothes, not your body.
00:27:46
Speaker
when she is wearing the bra, the bullet bra, and you see her from the side, I was like, I had to stop the movie and just go, what? ah Because it's like every time I see a bullet bra, I'm just so shocked. I don't even know that that would be comfortable. No, there's absolutely no way that it was comfortable. That is not what it was for. It was about America. It was about patriotism. It was not about comfort. It was about rebuilding this country after World War II. And there was even in the article they point out that like actresses
00:28:21
Speaker
who could not fit the bullet bra, use your imagination, they would stuff the ends of the bullet bra with cotton. And I was just like, what is this that we're talking about? That's crazy. That's just such a, yeah might eyes and point you I see stays, I see corsets. I can understand what they're doing to the human body and essentially flattening and lifting, right? Like holding up.
00:28:46
Speaker
But not shaping ah the bust at least but like bullet bras are just straight up They're turning your body into like an atomic weapon of yeah, literally a warhead It's crazy looking. I was really glad that they drew attention to that and and that Juliana was so meticulous in like her ah building of that silhouette because it's so important. like I have not done very many shows in this time period, but like when I have, I have made an effort to get everybody in period-appropriate underwear because it's like building a house
00:29:27
Speaker
without a foundation like you're never like you have to have that silhouette from the ground up in order to like put the clothes on top like it doesn't look right without it and when I have done shows that are like inspired by the 50s and not used that kind of like period foundation where like you can tell you can tell the difference yeah there's actually a show right now uh called after party starting Sam Richardson and um we just started watching the second season which came out like a minute ago, ah you know, a while ago. It was so long ago, like a month or something. like Maybe even like four or six, I don't know. I have no concept of time, that's appropriate. ah But I forgot this because of the first episode because I was like, oh my God, if the whole show's like this, I don't think I can watch it because I get so uncomfortable secondhand embarrassment.
00:30:19
Speaker
um But each episode of the show is filmed differently. So it's like one episode is an action movie like movie style or one is like a comedy, one's a thriller, noir thriller, you know. And it's not necessarily like this episode is in black and white. It's just that like the way that everybody talks changes, the way the story is told changes because the investigator is asking everybody what happened. So you're getting the story as it goes from different people's perspectives and everybody's looking at it differently. So the whole episode is different because it's from somebody's different perspective. And so the second, I think it's the second episode of the the second season is somebody's perspective where she hyper romanticizes everything. So everything is pride and prejudice. It's all regency.
00:31:07
Speaker
And why I bring this up is because it's all modern people. So they're literally arguing over like a typewriter. They have cell phones. They're helicopters. It's in the real world. But everyone is speaking as if they're in Bridgerton, which is hyper. right And then they're wearing Regency dress. but nobody's wearing the appropriate undergarments. And so it's a perfect opportunity to see that at play, yeah where it's like, yeah, you can put the clothes on. It's also just Halloween, right? Like you put it on yeah and it it sits weird. It's not what you imagined it was going to be because it doesn't look the way it looks on people in this like in this thing that you're trying to emulate. That's all because
00:31:51
Speaker
every layer matters. like You have to support the clothes correctly. and i am yeah i I love it when there's that ability to focus on that much detail.
00:32:03
Speaker
I mean, it's so much like the movie wouldn't be right without that. Like the whole premise is this hyper unrealistic vision of what the 1950s was. It's not the 1950s. It's a TV show in the 1950s. So like If you didn't go to the extremes with like all of those details, like the movie just like would not work without it. So like you have to. And it's just like funny. It's hilarious. Like I was like very aware of like the boys basketball team and like how short their shorts. And how high those those.
00:32:45
Speaker
talk as when like the 90s was the opposite like even we like wearing trash bags like I don't know about you but our ah PE clothes middle school and high school were all made out of plastic and I'm not talking about like when you think of like polyester now I'm talking like they were net polyester that had giant like holes and they were like two layered. And they were just like, when you sweat, because of course you are, you're a disgusting teenager, like running two miles. In PE class. In PE class, the textile would react to your sweat. So it felt even grosser and it just like retained the stink. So like teenage boys who would just sweat into that shit and put it back in their lockers and not take it home to wash it.
00:33:33
Speaker
It was horrendous. It was a crime not even cotton. You couldn't even give us cotton like oversized shirts or shorts. That was not my experience. My experience oh was with cotton. My experience was with some natural fibers. Girl, I'm jealous. Apparently I'm luckier than I thought. It's terrible.
00:33:54
Speaker
but i Oh, one thing that I was going to mention with Don Knotts in particular is like he shows up and he's in his little repairman coveralls and his little repairman hat, but he still has like a full-on dress shirt and a tie yeah underneath. And I feel like if anyone was unclear about whether he was a real person, like that clues you in immediately. like No, that's not... a thing that Repairman did in 1998. He was following very different rules, yeah and so like he is set apart immediately, and he's way more connected to the world of Pleasantville yes than anything else we see. Absolutely. So yeah, that's just so funny to me that um that anybody would question that. Yeah.
00:34:43
Speaker
that's That's fascinating to me. Well, I think that what people were questioning too was like, why did he give David this remote? Is he looking for a replacement for himself? And it's like, no, why would he? no And they're like, that's why he's so mad when David is like, you know, David and Jennifer are influencing change and changing the show is because he's looking for a place with herself. And they're like, no, no, no, he's enabling that. Like he literally at the end of the movie drives away and his little repair van smiling.
00:35:07
Speaker
because what he wanted happened. And like every time we see him on the TV in Pleasantville yelling at David, it's just to get David to react. And so David digs deeper every time the repairman is like, don't do this. David's like, well, I'm going to do it. And so he's being driven. psychology on it yeah So um in the LA Times article, my only source of research. yes yeah that well correct We will link to it and maybe people will be able to open it. Yeah. paywa um There is mention in here of ah our designer.
00:35:46
Speaker
paying from $20 to $400 per cardigan. Because she and I'm hoping her crew because there is a size like a good amount of people listed in the crew for this movie, which is nice, went to all these like dealers around the country, rental houses, local vintage stores, and just like every single cardigan except for like one is vintage. Yeah, and like you can tell and yeah like you can tell you can tell and they're also
00:36:17
Speaker
Holy cow. Like it is so cool that those clothes didn't have giant moth holes for being over 40 years old. Like I know that they were, they didn't have crazy or at least, you know, maybe they, some needed to be restored, but I would bet that yeah she would possibly skip that and just be like, no, I'm going to go for the ones that are still in pretty damn good condition. yeah Um, but like there's no weird stains, you know, there's no like damage that's visible on the camera.
00:36:47
Speaker
And it's like that's just that's pretty damn cool that's that's some like detecting work it's have to do that also how miserable to go on a road trip and.
00:36:58
Speaker
have to go collect a bunch of vintage things. i know oh Sounds so tedious and boring. I wouldn't want to do that at all. Doesn't it make you feel insane that the like comparative like timeline would be like making a ah movie now set in 1985? I'm upset about it.
00:37:19
Speaker
And that's what Stranger Things is. It really is. It really is. That's what Stranger Things is. Yeah, it is. And like design wise, I know that people have strong feelings about that show. Have your own opinion. I love that show. And one of the things I love the most is the design. All of it is so good.
00:37:41
Speaker
And like those costumes are just like this. You can tell how much effort and time went into the research and sourcing um and reproducing. it's it's just it like Pleasantville is just such a cool standard.
00:38:01
Speaker
that seems really subtle. Because when you look at it, you're like, ah, boring suburbia. And you're not wrong. right But it's just like, it's about, you know, this very like middle class, well, secure, you know, um group of people who are wearing very clean, very very well appointed clothes, but like those clothes are so hyper realistic in their perfection that like human regular people would have somewhere some tear things would look slouchy things would look ill-fitting or you know, maybe your
00:38:40
Speaker
parent or guardian or whoever is sewing stuff in the house or taking it to a tailor. Maybe they're not a great tailor. So if it's taken in, it doesn't look great. Or if it's made for you, it looks homemade. This is all like stupid perfect. I know. And it's like,
00:38:56
Speaker
it's It's interesting because like the 1950s in real life is like a time when there is, ah for this, you know, class of people, this like middle class white ah like sort of middle America vibe. like For those people in real life, there were a lot of rules and there were a lot of expectations and there were a lot of like ah spoken and unspoken rules of how to dress and how to act and like etiquette and like what to wear when and like what is appropriate for certain situations. and so
00:39:35
Speaker
maybe if you watch this, you're like, oh, it's that. But it's like taking that up another notch into the land of like TV make believe world. And yeah, like real life is never perfect and real life is never spotless and like so precise like the way it is in the TV show, which I think is kind of like, you know, one of the themes of the movie ah that real life is not Pleasantville, maybe.
00:40:03
Speaker
But to see it like rendered so perfectly is just like, I mean, like, you know, it's just like, wow, good job. Amazing. and i also Every scene. Amazing. Every scene and like also throughout the movie, right? Because yes, the story is about change. It's about learning how to change. It's about learning how to evolve. We see the silhouettes do that, where at first everybody has the fuller skirt that is like the the housewife, young teen, like,
00:40:31
Speaker
Yeah, the big yeah, the big and then goal the big like pleated skirt. Yeah. Yeah. And then as we go on and the color starts to interact with the world and people start to be experiencing desire and joy and like love, like they're actually feeling things.
00:40:49
Speaker
because they're seeking them out. yeah And um we start to see different silhouettes. And so it's like though the women's clothes, we're not just seeing the big wide skirts anymore, we're seeing like tighter silhouettes. And even just looking at Joan Allen, she starts on the end with the big, big, big.
00:41:06
Speaker
dress that looks more like a she's going to a tea party with you know like three or four like petticoats underneath and at the end she's wearing like a set that's like this jacket and this yeah dress and I think to but it's yeah and it's like i know Was the dress like sleeveless even? um ah Yeah, it has a jacket. Yeah. and we see her We see her first with the jacket and then like we see her on that park bench without the jacket. I think it is sleeveless without the jacket. It's a it's like a body con shape. yeah and it's like We see that with some of the girls. like They're changing their styles. Reese Witherspoon ends that way. A couple other girls end that way. um and like We're just seeing like shorter sleeves. We're seeing all these different things like progress where
00:41:51
Speaker
ah people in Pleasantville aren't being people yet. And so they're they're representations of like this repression and this um yeah to ideal.
00:42:07
Speaker
yeah Yeah. And the ideal is pretty impersonal and wooden. And then as soon as they start to to discover themselves um and to kind of come alive, we start to see variation in the costumes because at the very beginning there is no variation.
00:42:26
Speaker
And, like, we're seeing- And you see the people that hold onto it yeah the longest and how, like um like, one of my favorite little, like, moments in the movie that is pretty far towards the end is when William H. Macy comes home from work and, like, no one's home. I'm home.
00:42:45
Speaker
But like when he's like there's a shot of him like walking down you know like his block to get to his house, and it's like all of the conservative dads walking home at at the exact same time dressed the exact same way in their perfect little suit with their little fedora, their little briefcase. And it's like they all like walk into their like gates like almost at the same time. it's like It reminded me of Truman Show, like where people are like set themselves for the day. Everything is rehearsed. Yeah. Yeah. And like everything, every movement has a reason because like he gets in the door and the lights are off and he doesn't consciously notice that something's off. But he unconsciously does because he doesn't even put his hat or does he put on his hat on the hat rack or does he put his hat down with the briefcase?
00:43:32
Speaker
but there's something that's already awry with him.
Societal Norms and Segregation Themes
00:43:35
Speaker
I can't remember. He's even just going back over his steps, but I did it right. I did all the things. Then he hangs up his jacket and we bounce somewhere else and then we come back and we're led to understand that he's been walking through the house room by room just saying, honey, I'm home. No, he's been saying, where's my dinner?
00:43:57
Speaker
That is what he's been saying. And then it switches to where's my dinner once he's in the kitchen. So before that, he's gone through a couple of rooms going, honey, I'm home? And then where's my dinner? Where's my dinner? Where's my dinner? And then he walks outside of the house. Where's my dinner? It was just. And it's just like then he walks through the rain. And it's the first time any of them have ever interacted with rain. And we see a bunch of responses to that. But it's just like their clothes aren't prepared for weather. No, no, as soon as he walks into the bowling alley with wet and everyone's just like, oh my God. What is it? Right? Real rain? And like, he's just like cold, but doesn't know why he's, he doesn't understand really. I don't think he's never experienced cold before. It's always 72 degrees there, even at night. Yeah. So it's just like, there are all these really just exquisite details that are wonderful. And when I said, I just want to clarify before, when I said that there's no variation at the beginning, of course there's variation visually,
00:44:55
Speaker
like color and, you know, sure yeah texture and all that kind of stuff, styling. But when you're looking at silhouettes, there's no yeah variation because this like when you said the dads are coming home, they're all identical. yeah And part of why they're identical is because of that societal expectation of like, well, you're a businessman, so you should be wearing XYZ.
00:45:15
Speaker
And like you don't wear this unless it's that. And so that's the same for every single character. Everybody has a role to play and they are dressed to the nines for that role. And it's situational because it's like when when lost, sad, wet.
00:45:32
Speaker
William H. Macy like stumbles into the bowling alley. All the guys are in there in their bowling outfits. like there's a There's a prescription of like what you wear when you're bowling. You don't wear a suit and tie that's preposterous. You have to wear a bowling shirt. When we see these older guys, I think it's even just before that outside of the barbershop and they're looking at like the young kids who are both in black and white and in color.
00:45:59
Speaker
And they're like talking about one of the girls like bright red sweaters and they're like, look at that sweater. You know, they're like, what? When's it gonna end? They're not wearing suits either because it's a warm day and they're not necessarily there to get the shave and the haircut. Part of being at the barbershop is sitting and talking with your guys. So they're wearing short like polos and short button-up shirts. right? And it's like, there's also an expectation for that. So everywhere you look, there are so many tight rules. And you can see as these characters are gaining their own perspectives and gaining the ability to like, I just at the beginning, when, um, what's his name, who plays the malt shop?
00:46:42
Speaker
no Jeff Daniels. so Jeff Daniels, when Toby McGuire as Bud forgets that he's supposed to go to work at the malt shop, he like comes running in and Jeff Daniels is just wiping the counter and he goes, you know,
00:46:58
Speaker
we usually have this routine where you know you come in you do xyz and then i do this and then i then i do the fries and i do this other thing he's like but you never came in so i just kept wiping yeah and he like npc he's in it they're all npc's and it's the scene where we see toby mcguire give him permission. yes Hey, if I don't come on time and we if I don't do that part, I can still do it after you finish the wipe. You can go do the next thing you have to do. And like that whole day or the evening that we see them together, that's a repeated thing so that Jeff Daniels is like, I can make my own choices. So like all these characters are in this place where they have to figure out I can make a choice, question mark. But
00:47:41
Speaker
while we're seeing that journey for all these characters, including how they dress themselves and how they're doing their hair and gaining more independence and their own style, we're also being made aware that the whole time before they were observing and they were observing the rules that they had to follow. yeah And that it wasn't just accepted that they were like, but that's what we have to do because like you do that and you do that and you do that. So I have to do that. And like some were like, okay, I can and break that rule that I had been observing because it didn't really serve a purpose. Yeah, or like everything will be
00:48:21
Speaker
fine if things don't happen exactly in the same order but they all still happen like nothing bad happens it just is yeah different. And this this whole movie we have to say is based on right yes the premise of a 1950 tv show about a white family in a white suburban town there is not a person of color to be seen not one and that is that is part of the point and yeah part of the the the fable part of the parable or whatever it is that you want to call it that this movie is and it it was pretty i texted you within four minutes of starting this movie i screamed out loud because but we're in the 90s
00:49:03
Speaker
we're We're being shown why Toby McQuire's character David is so preoccupied with this show. And ah one of the reasons is because everything in his life is doom, right? Like the teachers class by class are going by like HIV and this and that and like, you're going to die and everything's horrible. But I texted you and the teachers were like, yeah, by the time you're 30, the temperature The global yeah global temperature will have written two and a half degrees. And I just like screamed out loud. No.
00:49:38
Speaker
no Because it's real. and And that reality is reflected in Pleasantville when we get to the end and we're in our court scene, where it's not really a court scene, but it is a court scene. He's in the courthouse. And one of these men has appointed himself.
00:49:57
Speaker
Yeah, it's a very it's a very striking image because they have started in this town to refer to all of the people who've turned into full color. Technicolor. As coloreds. Yeah, I was thinking a lot about that, this free watch. Yeah, and they are also talking about segregation, right? They're talking about segregation from the ground up and they're enacting it multiple different ways. One of the first ways it starts is with violence because they've issued an edict and there was a response to that edict, which was like a painting, a nude painting, and then in color, in color. And everybody who has access to this color is continuing to be in color. Like they they cannot change that about themselves, right? And so there's so many levels of conversation happening about this, but
00:50:51
Speaker
What was so striking is that when I saw this, when I was 12 or 13, I was like, oh, yeah, this like this it felt distant. It didn't feel like it was millions of miles away, but it felt more distant because publicly when I was a kid, yeah, people were racist. People said like racist shit about me to my mother and she threatened to cut them.
00:51:22
Speaker
She's like, I'll kill you if you open your damn ignorant mouth one more time. but like And people had said racist shit to her, to you know my birth father his entire life, like that entire side of the family has experienced horrific racism. There are multiple people in my life who had experienced that in older times, right? Obviously because they're older. And like I had seen it, but I also grew up in a place that i as I get older, I'm recognizing is closer to Pleasantville than it is to anything else. Because I have walked people through the town that I grew up in and they're like, are you fucking kidding me right now? right It's like a movie set. And so yes I was not fully cognizant when I first saw this movie of my own
00:52:05
Speaker
removal from certain realities. So I was used to people saying ignorant things and racist things, yeah but not to a level where it was like, you go sit there. Right. Because I we didn't feel so bold in there. There was that boldness did not exist where I was living. It still exists. But it was like you could be shamed for that. Like public shame had worked to a point where people who were that racist could not be so bold about it in public. Yeah, they had to be quieter in a public space. Yeah, it had to be more, yeah. It was still present, but it just had to take place in a different way than what we knew about like the civil rights era, right? Yes. And before. Because, again, educationally,
00:52:58
Speaker
Our education system liked to pretend that racism had been cured. We knew that like some of us knew that that was not true. But that's what our teachers were telling us and that's friggin crazy. yeah So being 12 or 13. My experience as a kid was more like people.
00:53:14
Speaker
saying racist things around me thinking that I'm going to agree with them because I'm white and I'm like, no, I don't agree with that. And now I know that you're not a safe person. And even as a kid, I could like feel that where I'm just like, oh, I don't trust this person anymore because what the fuck did they just say to me? And thinking that I'm going to like cosign that same thing. But we did not grow up with segregation the way that it had been enacted in the past. So watching that segregation on the screen, there was a distance in my understanding of that. And now watching it, unfortunately, people have pushed and we now have people in power who desire that level of public
00:54:06
Speaker
backward direction. And so there was a point where, I forget what his name is, but the guy who makes himself the lead witch hunter, if you will. Yeah. He's like the head of the chamber of the harbor. So he's like, why call him Buzz? But like, I don't know that that's the name. Yeah, I don't remember his name. But he says, like at one point he says, into a microphone, into a town hall,
00:54:29
Speaker
We want to preserve everything that makes this place great. And I wanted to run through my glass sliding door because that's where we are. And so it was pretty I was left with a very significant impression watching this because it's still relevant. The story that's being told in this movie is still super relevant and we're seeing it even in conversation today. So I followed this account. Like literally two day. Two day. Like, I follow this wonderful YouTuber named Jen, Reverend Jen Allhale, whose account is Fundy Fridays, right? And she and her husband talk about fundamental Christians. And they'll sometimes watch a documentary and cover the documentary. Or they also do very deep research on different branches of,
00:55:31
Speaker
evangelical um religious sects and then like they basically are releasing like regular small documentaries, right? And then like she's gone back and redone some of the things that she did because she's like choosing to do things in slightly different ways that feel more ethical for her, etc, etc. One of the things I watched recently was about the heightened conversation eaten in in evangelical circles right now where it's almost like a so almost like a script because so many people are saying it exactly the same way where these shitty guys go into gyms to work out and they're calling out women who are in these gyms
00:56:13
Speaker
quote unquote, tempting them. Right. And how dare they think that they could leave the house wearing underwear. Meanwhile, these women are just wearing like yoga pants and a tank top. And maybe it's a sports bra. Maybe it's sports shorts. Who gives a damn?
00:56:28
Speaker
But the conversation about who you are based on how far you stray from a specific ideal is still present and like sal trying to determine your value to society to society based on the clothing that you wear and how you visually represent yourself yeah is still here. like never there It never left. We have native indigenous youth,
00:56:57
Speaker
whose hair is being cut by strangers because they think that these little kids should have short hair. And that's so horrendous. We have kids with natural hair being told that their hair is messy and should look a specific way that society expects because it replicates something else. Being told they can't come to their school unless they cut their hair.
00:57:22
Speaker
or like take out if they have like braids or something that's like, yeah what? Like in what world? teachers, people who are not in their family, also people who are in their family who are not their parent, cutting their braids off, yeah cutting off these things because some somehow their value as a person is less because they're wearing their hair in a beautiful way.
00:57:46
Speaker
like this is all relevant as hell. It's all because it's like this idea that we have of like what looks clean cut what like that that concept of clean cut is a white middle class supremacy. Yeah it is and like the i like if you see someone who looks different than that and you make like weird assumptions about that person in your head. like That is the internalized yeah like like expression of like that thinking. that it's just like It's crazy to me that we are still we're still here. and We've made like no progress, I think. No, we've gone back. I mean, there is progress, but that progress is being rejected at a rate with such fury and so much power that we understand
00:58:38
Speaker
because we know how messed up stuff is, but we still are shocked by it because we're disappointed by it. The costumes in this movie are such a perfect example of not just supporting a director's vision, right? But absolutely supporting the story in every shape and form because they are a part of the language and not just like telling, like establishing a world, but establishing a social order and establishing these clothes are also kind of weapons,
Symbolism and Messaging in 'Pleasantville'
00:59:12
Speaker
right? Like they're weapons. And so it's like,
00:59:16
Speaker
the second that somebody stops wearing the what the housewife is expected to wear, then everything is crashing because she's no longer making the meatloaf at 6 p.m. She's no longer doing it. If somebody's carrying an umbrella, that means that they're expecting and preparing for rain when we don't have rain here. like There's all these different things the guy who's at the bowling alley that has like the iron burn on his shirt. like he's The back of his shirt has like the imprint of like an iron that's burned into it and but all the men guess when they see it and they're like, like what happened? and he's like My wife was was like ironing my shirt and he's like they're like well like, what happened to her? and she's like he She said she was just thinking.
01:00:00
Speaker
thinking thinking. So it's just like, you know, the the white supremacy of it all, the the misogyny of it all, all of these things are baked in. And it's the perfect visual era for us to understand all of these things, right? Because that still is the staple that we think of when we think of white supremacists. Clean living is like 1950s postcard. If they don't want us to think that, then maybe they shouldn't have been photographed in the 1950s screaming racial slurs at children outside of schools. If they don't want us to think that about them, maybe they shouldn't have done some horrible things. Maybe they shouldn't have been horrible.
01:00:40
Speaker
And so it's like, it's still a visual language though that we like with Truman show, we talked about it too, where like we see that and we just, we do the work ourselves and going, ah, we understand, we understand where we're at. We understand what we're doing here. And so like the costuming is amazing, amazing. And like,
01:00:57
Speaker
i mean I feel like we could talk forever about like the the messages in this movie and like there's still so much more. like Yeah, and it's not perfect. and i I don't know. Some of the reviews that I saw like when the movie came out were basically like that the messages in the movie were too simplistic and too like whatever, whatever. but here I don't agree with that because like some people need to start there. And that's the thing is that it's simplistic for a reason because y'all are dumb. Am I speaking specifically to to like our audience? No, it's very general, you all, but like
01:01:33
Speaker
We have shown as a society this is the site that society this society is that stupid that it needs to be literally led to water and go, you drink it now. And even then kind of needs your head pushed towards it. Put your mouth in the water and open it and then you drink it with your throat.
01:01:55
Speaker
there's muscles in there to take it to your stomach. and so it's like that's It has to be that way. and I think that that's that's that's where we're at, is that so many people thought, oh well, we're so beyond this. and It's like, no, but we're not though. Because the people in this, like the characters in this sitcom are like,
01:02:16
Speaker
my grandparents' age. And it's like, if they didn't learn the lessons then, they just keep passing them down. It doesn't change unless people make an effort to change it. Yeah. And what I do love about this movie is that there are people who are living in Pleasantville who are a part of the society, who we see are, on the face of it, happy, right? Because they're safe, they have regular food, they have all of these things.
01:02:42
Speaker
But then they show us themselves that they're actually not that happy. Because one character- They're like a deep, bottomless well of sadness in this movie. Every single person. A single well of sadness. And I don't remember her name, but the young girl who bakes cookies for Bud and Tobey Maguire goes, no, those are for, also, what a great nickname, Whitey. Whitey. Those are for Whitey. And she's like, no. And he really lives up to that name later. He does. He really does. And she's like, no, I made them for you.
01:03:12
Speaker
I made them for you." And he like is kind of reluctant to accept that and it makes her sad because like this might be the first time that she felt something and acted on that for herself. So there's so much in here that is is so relevant because it's like even in conversations about people who are like so shocked at the results of our 2024 elections, right?
01:03:36
Speaker
it's It's that whole thing of like, okay, well, you are a member of this society and this is how it's been going. And the only way that, you know, you're going to get through it is by recognizing that this is what it is and that you can make choices that are different and you can do things um to change how you've been interacting with society that might lead to a different result. And if there are people who are fighting against that and who are fighting against the result that you're working toward, even if that's just by wearing the clothes or the hair or the face, uh, responding to the name that you want, then keep doing it.
01:04:17
Speaker
keep doing it. And those people will kind of be forced to change eventually or there are people who will do some work to change them by confronting them and talking about that change the way that Tobey Maguire's character does. And yes, it is very simplistic in this movie when you strip it down by having this like Jimmy Stewart speech. about like What do you feel, dad? Is it an emotion?
01:04:40
Speaker
Okay, but I have to say, like if William H. Macy is crying, I'm crying. like i as a I feel for this man. he's like and so there's There's just so, so much that you can like point to in life that is that is represented in this fable. And it is very, very, very relevant. And ah there are smarter people who can say better smarter things than myself.
01:05:06
Speaker
I know, but it's, I mean, it's like, I don't want it to be as relevant as it is right now. No, I don't want that. It was a bummer that within four minutes, it was like, no, this is it. yeah Nothing's changed. Fuck. And that's like the the Christian national people in this country who want us to be living life this way are literally like this is what they want. And like tradwives on yeah fucking TikTok who dress
01:05:41
Speaker
like this, yeah, except more cottage core because they're like, Oh, the crossover between Studio Ghibli and try the like we have to live off grid because of their distrust of the government that they also still want to control. I don't make it make sense, but I don't just whatever it's like even just being aware of that visual.
01:06:02
Speaker
prison making and and recognizing those tools. People who dress vintage, you know, this was a massive conversation in 2020, but people who dress vintage, there are people who just like to dress in vintage clothes because they're yeah beautiful clothes that are well made and they love the styles.
01:06:21
Speaker
they people There's um this person online. I'm forgetting his name, but he's a dandy and he's like got incredible style. and I took a class with him once and I'm so sorry that I can't remember his name. But he started releasing like pins that said vintage style, not vintage values. Yes. and I've seen that message repeated. Yes. Because he's also a black man yeah and people would say crazy things to him. and He was like, what are you talking about?
01:06:51
Speaker
hey No. Don't ask me if I wish I could travel back in time. I don't. Why would I want that? I don't even know if I want to be here right now. If you've heard anyone make that kind of comment, that's why we need to have this conversation because people are still making comments like that to people. And that's why movies like this that are simplistic That's why we have fables that's why we have these stories there's literally the visual of Eve handing the apple to Adam literally yes and that's before cuz like there's a scene where I can't I'm forgetting her name but this young girl her name yeah who you know what.
01:07:33
Speaker
Hold up. We're going to look this up right now because I can't keep... She does a great job. She's ah wonderful in the movie. So Margaret is her name. And she is ah on a date with ah Toby McGuire's David as Bud. And um he has been defrosting over the course of the movie because he was very much entrenched in like, no, we have to preserve this. We cannot let it go. keep it wait But he finally he finally sees that these are not NPCs, that these are creatures, whatever they are, human or otherwise, because he's in a TV show. But he's like, they have wants and needs and curiosity. And like, why would I take that away from them? like yeah And I also have value because i I can answer those questions. And so he finally works up
01:08:24
Speaker
the gumption to ask out a girl, which we do see him do at the beginning of the movie, in his head. But he asks out Margaret, and they're on a date at Lover's Lane, which is like really pretty. It's insanely gorgeous. Like, can I please go there? I know it's not real. There's like an apple orchard there, and like all these flowers. And like the most beautiful gazebo. It's crazy, and like a lake. And so,
01:08:48
Speaker
She offers him some blueberries. He's still in black and white. And is she still in black and white at this point? I think she might be. Yeah, she is because they fall asleep. And when she wakes up, yes she's so colored. He's she they're both still in black and white. Most of the other teens who are out there like the location. is in color because that's where a bunch of kids have discovered their sexuality and fun. But they're like also gathering up there to read to each other in groups. So the joy that they're bringing there has affected the landscape. So there's like butterflies and sunshine and cherry blossoms floating in the wind. at a james is stinging Yeah, and there are people
01:09:30
Speaker
in who are still in black and white hanging out. So there's like all these people together who are just enjoying themselves and they're sitting in the car and like having this time and then eventually they have like a little picnic ah by the water and it's dark and she offers him some some blueberries and he says, what? And she's like, yeah, I picked them myself. There's tons of stuff out there. And he's like, like what? And she gets up and she runs over to an apple tree and she picks this beautiful Technicolor apple and she's still in black and white and she hands him this apple and then he eats it and so there's like this just this beautiful like and garden of Eden moment total fable on fable on fable on fable right and so it's just like a modern day fable for
01:10:14
Speaker
messaging about like what to let go and what to move forward with. And the next morning after a rainstorm and after David slash Bud explains what rain is to all these kids, they all sleep in the gazebo and he moves himself across the lake and is just sitting there because he's the only one who's left in black and white. Yeah. And so it's kind of like he can't figure out why Like what's holding him back? Which was so weird. I saw one review also for this movie that said like their extremely incorrect take on the movie was that turning into color is associated with sin. And I was like, it literally could not be more the opposite in the movie. The only reason that they're saying that.
01:10:57
Speaker
like self-recognition. The only reason they're saying that is because of puritanical reasons. I know. It's because Reese Witherspoon comes in as like a sexually active teenager and introduces the idea of sex. Yeah. And yet it's not what turns her into color either. No, it's not. It's it's about people becoming full people and self-aware and like asking questions and learning. It's about learning and feeling because like all the books were empty.
01:11:27
Speaker
All the books were empty and then they start unfolding and like Reese Witherspoon could only remember. Yeah, but they only start filling in with like what people like it's only because they had know the books that they start like Tobey Maguire knows the book and that's why it starts filling in like yeah, Reese Witherspoon fills in as far as she read and then it stops. And it's not like in her dialect or anything. It's like it fills the book but only to as far as yeah she might have scanned it and so Like, for her, it's about finding out that, like, Reese Witherspoon's character, Jennifer, doesn't have to be this thing that she was pressuring herself to be in the 90s. Like, at home, she can be all of herself. She can be that sexually as ah active person. Like, she refers to herself as a slut, and I was like, come on now.
01:12:14
Speaker
1998. You can be that, but also you can enjoy things that you said you weren't allowed to enjoy because that was only for dorky people. like You can enjoy anything you want to. You don't have to hold yourself back. It's better if you follow your Yeah, the question you want to ask in your curiosity. yeah And um she chooses at the end to stay in the show. but Okay, what are the ramifications of her staying inside a fictional TV world? I'm like, I don't know. So their mom at the beginning of the movie,
01:12:53
Speaker
James Casmerick. Yeah. Amazing. Is arguing on the phone with their dad and they're divorced and she's like, this is your weekend. You need to spend time with them. And Tobey Maguire is like losing himself more in the show because obviously he's being used kind of like as a tool and it doesn't feel great. And his the way his mom's talking about them is like, I don't want to be here, you know. And she's like getting ready to go on this weekend with like this younger boyfriend.
01:13:18
Speaker
And ah so when he comes back out of the show into the real world, he sees his mom and they have a conversation together. And right when he pops out of the TV, it says, and that's been the hour long marathon.
01:13:33
Speaker
or the first hour of the marathon. Right, so they've been gone for days, and it's been an hour. An hour. So it's Chronicles of Narnia rules. Absolutely. Because they've been gone, I would even say, longer than just days. Like, it has to be weeks or longer. It's been a significant amount of time. A significant amount of time. And so it's Chronicles of Narnia rules. I think that she can spend a good amount of time there, and then he can just go, oh, she's out at a friend's, you know? I guess. I don't know.
01:14:02
Speaker
She literally leaves to go to college. That's the commitment of time that you're going to make. She's going to be gone for a minute. It's very interesting. He keeps the remote though. He's going to have the power to go back in and out. She's fully trapped in there. He'll be able to go in and check.
01:14:21
Speaker
but even though she decided to stay in this world that visually to us is repressive right like they have had this renaissance where now they basically written themselves into a world because at the end of the movie on tv they're seeing the sphinx and at the beginning Literally, oh, I laughed at this. The first day at school, the lesson in the geography class is, okay, kids, last week we learned the geography of Main Street. And this week we're going to learn the geography of Elm Street. Can anybody tell me the difference between Elm and Main Street? and Like a whole week? How long is their class? What are they going to say? Well, I mean, apparently that street is just a circle.
01:15:04
Speaker
Yes. She asks, reswitch boom. They are literally living in one division. They are living in the snow globe. Yeah, in a little snow globe. And so by the end, they're a part of the world. There's a bus. Yeah. They can go out now. So she is not staying because of the repressiveness. Right. And putting on the glasses and reading, she's not like, and now I'm putting my my sleddishness away, even though she has that line where she's like, I tried the slut thing and I didn't like it.
01:15:34
Speaker
I could have maybe changed that a little bit because it's like we could polish that up a little bit now. She could just accept that she likes... both certain things. She likes both. And so I do think that visually she likes both. I think that the costumes are telling the story that you and I are telling, which is that she is accepting that she can be both because she's not holding on to the silhouette that we started in the film with, which was one that when she gets in the world, she's like, I wouldn't dress this way for mom. So why the fuck?
01:16:04
Speaker
like what I dress like with this, where's the poodle skirt essentially, right? Like yeah it the the big, so yeah the Bobby socks, all that stuff. She's not dressed like that anymore. She's got the tighter, like ah little yeah it's more adult. And so she is,
01:16:22
Speaker
visually telling the story that we agree with, which is that she's like, this is me growing up, which is accepting both sides, that I can do that thing I said I wasn't allowed to do. And I can also chill out with this thing because I don't have to rebel using my body the way that I thought i was or i don't have to they have to see a rebellion it could just be yeah it doesn't have to be a rebellion it can just be something that's a part of my life and it's just you know what happens whatever yeah and so i did like that because it felt like the costumes were dig digressing a little bit.
01:16:57
Speaker
from the script, the the spoken words. And I was like, that feels right. Like that feels like a moment where a costume designer might fight for. Yeah, she's choosing to stay, but she's not choosing repression. Yeah, she's choosing a place where she feels like she doesn't have to be pressured to not focus on the things that she wants to focus or look for it. Like she's building up confidence and this feels like a safe place to do that. And that doesn't mean... It's also a thing where like the costume can kind of just like give you that like it doesn't like you don't even have to like have that conversation with anyone as the designer. You can just put her in the outfit and it can do the work. And it doesn't even have to be like everyone is on board with this moment. It's just that's the costume. And it's just telling a story.
01:17:46
Speaker
And it can tell a slightly different story than it's being verbally told, but it's just telling a story. yeah And it's it's just like really well done. like It was was really lovely watch. and I think if it was made today, it could be made stronger for sure. I think that it does not necessarily have to be a solely white cast. But I do understand. And that would be a more interesting conversation. It would be a whole different conversation. So I understand why that was done. I think if it was done today, it could be done differently.
01:18:19
Speaker
and And I feel like there's definitely assumptions that people still had in the 90s about oh yeah what you know, like it's like we're never get we never get to fully step out of our time that we're making the movie in agreeing all of that with us to the project to h Yeah. And so there was this movie made me think and the costumes were super successful in being a tool of storytelling in this one where I don't feel like you have to reach by
01:18:52
Speaker
having historical knowledge or having like fantastical knowledge to explain why this captain's uniform is cooler than this captain's uniform in space. you know like I think the costumes in this were a featured part of the storytelling where it was very deliberate that they were a part and they did not need to fade.
01:19:13
Speaker
like Yeah, they were featured. they were ah They were integral into understanding the world. And and I think it's it it is a world that we have more access to because it is a television world. And like yeah that is a shared cultural touchstone for a lot of people, especially in the past when we only had three channels, like everybody was watching the same thing. so It's like the monoculture of it. It like gives everybody the basis of like understanding what that is. and so You can be you can like have these big beautiful costume moments and the basis of understanding is like baked in already.
01:19:58
Speaker
So yeah it's easier to do and it's beautiful and so lovely. And the fact that like that we watched so much was vintage is also so cool because it's like people had to be, you have to have a certain um awareness of like when you're wearing a costume anyway, but when it's vintage and it's old and it's potentially disintegration, like disintegratable, like you have to have an extra level of like, maybe don't, maybe don't reach so hard.
01:20:26
Speaker
Reach for that door handle, a little calmer. Just be dainty. Just be, you know. So it's like the costumes just like affected so many levels of this and that was just like really awesome. So I'm glad that this was on our list. I feel like it, as we've talked about, very pertinent. And I think that when it came out for our generation, it was a kind of like a an awakening touch point. Yeah. A conversational.
01:20:52
Speaker
Now, unfortunately, it's a grim version of the future. Yeah. We all look forward to. Speaking of grim visions, what are we going to do next time? Okay. We were talking about this before.
01:21:09
Speaker
I'm so excited. This is a movie that is like necessary because it definitely did make millennials. People were so... This was also one where people in middle school, like early high school, were just obsessed and were talking about it. And some people were just talking about like the very obvious stuff, but some people were so curious about it that they went to go read the book and then like talk about it because they wanted to. That was me. It was you. That was me. The next movie we're covering is Fight Club.
01:21:40
Speaker
Why do I sound like this? Why do I sound like this? We talked about it before we hit record. It's because it feels like... This is my revenge. This is for Hook. if In case anybody thought, oh, Melinda was just joking. She's not a vindictive person. Melinda's so sweet. She would never make anybody watch a movie that they objectively hate and don't want to watch wrong. Melinda's been waiting in the dark with little... I am Aaron Burr. I am not standing still. I am lying in a weight. Okay?
01:22:16
Speaker
oh Well played.
01:22:20
Speaker
damn i think I really look forward to hearing all of the reasons that you still hate the movie and I look forward to defending my decision to suggest it for this list. So I haven't seen this one again since it came out um and just prefacing this for everybody.
01:22:44
Speaker
I'm annoyed about it because I had a lot of friends who are super into movies and film and like now make like you know indies and stuff. like That was their dream. and They loved this thing to death. It's also about men.
01:23:02
Speaker
And you know what? That is exactly how I feel about Hook. That's how I feel about Hook. It's about all the ways that Peter Pan was sad and people were ah obsessed with this movie and I didn't like it. So I like, I do like Fight Club, but I don't think that I like it for the same reasons that those people like it. I think that's fair because you were not a teenage boy.
01:23:30
Speaker
I simply wasn't. i said You did not have any experience, I think, that that made you... i've never and and I've never been a physical... Align
Anticipation and Future Reflections
01:23:40
Speaker
emotionally. Yeah, like I've never fought anybody in a parking lot. You know, I've never felt... So my my feelings might be more after a rewatch, like i I will probably have more well-rounded opinions because it's been a very long decade. You'll be able to very precisely explain why you hate it.
01:24:03
Speaker
Yeah. um And so I'm looking forward to the watch because I do not remember the whole movie. I remember parts of it. I'm i'm interested to see how I react to this time. And I'm also excited to see Helena Bonham Carter. I like it when she pops up.
01:24:19
Speaker
Yeah, I like her. I like it a lot. Yeah, it's nice to see her not in a Tim Burton property. Yeah, just being an actress. just Doing her own thing. Yeah. Incredible at her craft. I'm looking forward to that. But in case I have an attitude about it, you'll all know why. I'm sure I'll repeat myself then as well. I like this because this is like the preview beforehand. you know like this is This is your like premonition of how you're going to feel and next time we'll be able to hear how you actually feel. Yeah, we'll see. We'll see how it turns.
01:25:01
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for coming along on this journey of Pleasantville. Uh, we are nearing the end of our season of a few left and movies that made millennials. And I'm sure we'll dip back into this thematic pot because come on now, but so many that we did not cover. So, so many and that we will not cover in the last few episodes. Yeah. Like this is maybe a first wave of this theme, but, uh, we will,
01:25:30
Speaker
you know, march along. And I hope that you follow us through the rest of the season, because I think we've got some good ones to tie this up with. I think so, yeah. Yeah. We're going to stick the landing. Heck yeah. All right. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye-bye.