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The Women- Somehow All About Men
18 Plays23 hours ago
We're back!! We missed you! Welcome to season five- movies about clothes! We're starting with the oldest movie on our list. We knew a film from 1939 would exactly be progressive, but boy was it not! Buckle up for a ride where we try to figure out why a movie with no men in it can't be more about the female characters that are.
Oh and so, so, so many hats!! Hats galore, hat extravaganza.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032143/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_dm_2_tt_7_nm_1_in_0_q_the%20women
Music: Cassette Deck by Basketcase
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Transcript
Introduction and Season 5 Overview
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:21
Speaker
Hello, friends. We are back. We took a little break. We've lived, we've laughed, we've loved in the intervening weeks. Ariel's already disgusted with me for saying that. um But we are back in your feed. um We are here. we are kicking off season five of our show. Isn't that so crazy? Seasoned veterans. So and absolutely not's so professional so experienced I know we we know everything now we're experts about podcasting you can tell you can hear it um so because we're kicking off season five that means that we had to come up with a new theme and um you know ideas rattling around bouncing off walls and We're just like witnessing current events breaking continuously. you know, how do we want to spend our time? Where do we want to focus our energy creatively? All of these questions, no answers. But what we decided to do for season five is to look at some movies that are about clothes because we like clothes, right?
00:01:41
Speaker
All of the kinds. And so that doesn't necessarily mean that all of the movies are about fashion. But that certainly is a theme, I think, running through a number of these movies. But we're trying to be a little bit more broad than that because fashion is, you know, fashion is one many things, but it's also kind of one thing. And there's so many ways to experience clothes in
Engaging Listeners and Communication Channels
00:02:07
Speaker
the world. So we're trying to look at a few different angles and maybe not to come from one POV for this season. So that will be our quest. And our movie list for the season is a bit in flux. So if you out there have a suggestion of a movie that you're like, oh my God, the season would not be complete without this film, please.
00:02:35
Speaker
drop us a line. you can find us you can find us on Instagram. You can find us on
Exploring 'The Women' and its Fashion Impact
00:02:42
Speaker
threads. You can find us ah at our email, hotsetpodcasts at gmail.com. Oh my God. um But today we are here with a very particular film. We have decided to Maybe kind of traipse through chronologically. We're going back to season one style where we looked at films as they were made. So we are here from a movie that is at this point getting close to 100 years old. It's closing in.
00:03:14
Speaker
So we watched a film from 1939 that is called the Women. and it is about a very particular group of women living a very particular kind of lifestyle and moving through that lifestyle in a very particular set of clothes.
00:03:33
Speaker
um But yeah, here we are. We're here. ah How are you doing, Ariel? Yeah. I am hanging in there, hanging in. How about you? ah you yeah I'm same. I think that I'm hanging in there a bit more ah psychologically than physically. So but we're here.
00:03:58
Speaker
You know, 1939 feels like an interesting time period to be watching a movie from right now. I'll say that. It feels very, very on the nose because it's 1939 rise of fascism in Europe and the world. And...
00:04:15
Speaker
Boy, oh boy, what a reflection of that. And I've been thinking recently a lot with everything that's happening, how in past centuries, you know, how things continue around it And like,
00:04:30
Speaker
For what purpose? And there are things that like try to address it, try to um inspire, try to confront, try to distract. And this one, I can't quite put my finger on it. i feel like you like it might not be confronting ah certain things happening. Yeah.
Fashion vs. Fast Fashion: A Comparative Discussion
00:04:51
Speaker
abroad Yeah. um I don't think it's really challenging much.
00:04:59
Speaker
it's It's certainly challenging um gravity with some of these hats that we're seeing in the film. These hats. i I should have taken better notes on which hats happen where, but this is a film of hats. This is ah an era of accessories. So the accessories in this are frigging incredible. There are definitely a couple standouts that like boggle the mind. um But whatever the budget was for costumes on this movie, it was substantial.
00:05:31
Speaker
And every single character has a range. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Very theatrical ranges. like Even the boring stuff is not really boring because it's all tailored and it's all very specific. Yeah. yeah It made it did make me, you know, it's like the the phrase like vintage clothes, not vintage values. And this movie, I think, is a prime example of just being Yeah, I was really ah missing the sort of like care and labor that goes into making these beautifully tailored clothes. And obviously this is a very particular example because our characters are all wealthy. Our characters are all... um
00:06:23
Speaker
very focused on appearances. That's like a theme in the film. And so their clothing is of that sort of, you know, New York society style. um That's just part of it. But there there's so much that goes into actually fitting and cutting and sewing clothes that fits on the body the way that they do in this film and i was just thinking about you know if i went to a store the sort
00:07:00
Speaker
the sort of cutting corners and standardization of oh yeah making clothes that just kind of hang off of you and don't necessarily do much.
00:07:15
Speaker
do you mind if we talk about this a little bit out of sequence, like the movie itself? Of course. I mean, when have we ever talked about the movie in sequence? It's a new season, Melinda. I figured I should check in. I don't Now that we're professionals. Okay. So there's a whole sequence in this where there's a fashion show yeah that a few of the characters attend. And it's a fashion show, not like you think of now with New York fashion, whatever.
00:07:37
Speaker
It's a fashion show of like a fashion house showing things that they have in season. And they have models walk around the same way they do with a runway now. But... there There's like little theater settings and backdrops and things. So cute. Like they're in situ with what they're wearing. And it's very theatrical. And I really loved that. And I can't wait to talk about some of those costumes. Yeah.
00:08:00
Speaker
But it shows that these models are all very similar in build. But it shows that each model, what they're wearing is is fitting them like a glove. Yeah. And so – I was thinking about that so much, how like we've been, the way that we experience fast fashion, et cetera, our clothing, is that we go into a dressing room by ourself with the most hideous lighting, with like circus fun house mirrors. And like, it's it's almost like a psychological
00:08:32
Speaker
experiment to see how miserable you could get yeah just trying to find a pair of pants. yeah And like nothing is made tailored at all unless you have a certain economic, you know, like access point. If you know how to do it yourself or if you have a friend that, you know, does you favors, can barter, whatever. Or if you're really good at thrifting and you happen to know how to find things that fit you. that fit somebody else who had a similar body. yeah like
00:09:04
Speaker
We do not experience this kind of clothing on the daily. No. Yeah. And it's it's so interesting, especially because of the work that we do. like um anytime I'm doing a show that is set in, you know, like present day or like close to it, right, where I'm buying clothes that I can get like at the mall and like bringing them to people and putting them on and we're picking like designs based on that, the things that actors say, because they go to those stores too, and they wear those clothes too. And so they understand like, you know, if I'm like, you know, you know, what size are you at?
00:09:54
Speaker
H&M. like They might know. and Or they'll say, like oh, I never have luck with jeans from wherever. And I just get all of my jeans at Target because they're the only ones that fit or whatever it is.
00:10:07
Speaker
And It's like we know these things because ah like nothing fits. Like everyone, everyone thinks that they have like the problem body because that is what we've been conditioned to believe when nothing is made to fit you.
Character Dynamics and Narrative Analysis
00:10:27
Speaker
It's just made like to a standard size. um I remember reading about um this is so off topic. I remember reading about... How dare you.
00:10:37
Speaker
know. Meanwhile, I'm pantomiming in the background, right? I'm getting like medical texts and shit. And I'm like absolutely paying attention to what you're saying, but just like calling my husband's attention. Like a forwarded text. So how dare you stray from the topic. I apologize. Yeah. No, I remember reading about, think it was World War I was the first time that military uniforms were standard made because they needed so many, right? Like horrifying. And so...
00:11:11
Speaker
um There was a person whose name I can't remember, and I wish I could remember, who studied the measurements of all of the soldiers that they measured for their uniforms and developed a set of standard sizes that they could make clothes to that would fit the most people ah so that they could just crank out, you know, small, medium, large, whatever the, you know, numbering system was or whatever. And what they found when they made all of those was that they didn't fit anyone.
00:11:41
Speaker
Yep. Because nope we're human beings. We're soft-bodied people. And like that's that's one of the reasons why the corset conversation, which comes back every season, like what the stay corset conversation annoys the ever-loving life out of me because there's so much context missing. Because when when actors and actresses, especially modern day, talk about how constricting they are, it's because they're being tight-laced for no good reason. Yes. They don't have shifts underneath. They're not actually wearing them the way that people historically wore them. Because like, yes, people did tight lace, but that was not everyone. Like people wear bras, people wear underwear. That's what a corset is. It's just a supportive garment. And like arguably it's more supportive than bras that we have now in a healthier way. Anywho, the clothing that was built to sit over stays in corsets
00:12:36
Speaker
had very specific shapes, but it did not demand that you change your body to meet those shapes. yeah That's why things were so dramatic. Like that's why you have padding is because the padding changed your body. You didn't change your body. Yeah. And then if a fashion like went away, you took away the padding, you know? So it's like, that's what it is. And now it's, and we will bring this up every season. Now the expectation is that you have to change your body to fit the clothes. yeah And that's just not,
00:13:07
Speaker
feasible it it aids in like this crazy fast fashion it aids in waste because the way that they try to push out seasons and changing fashions whatever is so quick that you're supposed to be like over the clothes that you have they're supposed to like fall apart you know all these of things so it's just like and they're absolutely unalterable the majority of the super like the super fast fashion it even like you know and Stuff that's marketed as being higher tier than that, you know, if I'm going to buy it, I'll look inside and see how it's put together because half the time it's not necessarily put together in any better way. Like the actual fabric itself might be like a higher quality, but the type of construction is usually not that much better than the fast fashion. So you are getting...
00:14:01
Speaker
better materials that like potentially will last longer, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to fit better right on the person. People seem to have this like magical idea that like, oh, you could just let it out if it's a little small and you're like, no darling, there's nothing in here. That's something that that was one of the first things I learned when I started studying costume is like for theater, you know, you're, you're changing your, your seam allowances are different than they would be in fashion. Right. Cause in fashion, know,
00:14:30
Speaker
you don't want any bulky seams because people will be looking at you really closely. You want sturdy seams, but you don't want them to be heavy to change how things hang on you, et cetera, et cetera. And so you have to have like a really clever tailor or, you know, know how to do it yourself to hide heavier seams and what fabrics to apply them to. There's just a lot of, a lot of knowledge in there, but like in theater,
00:14:57
Speaker
You can have the craziest seam allowances because you're building something to last. And that's also something that has driven me nuts in the past is that There's this like weird divide between fashion and costume, right? Yes. And there's a lot of, to me, delusional looking down from one to the other. And it goes from both sides, right? Yes. It's an equal delusion. Equal opportunity hate. Yes. Where like there's just absurd things said one about the other. And it's like we are all building clothing. Mm-hmm. Some of us are doing it for fantasies. Some of us are doing it for practical living. But we both do both. Yeah. Like, let's not fight each other. Knock it off. But like somebody once said that they were taught in their fashion program that costumes
Cultural and Historical Fashion Insights
00:15:51
Speaker
are built to fall apart. They're not built well. That is bizarre. That is a bizarre statement. And I had to take a beat and be cool. This is how you know that I have a very short fuse is that this alone will just like set it off. But I was like, did you know that there are professional ballerinas in the ballet that
00:16:13
Speaker
Who when they achieve a certain role, they are assigned the tutu. Yes. That goes with the role. It's not necessarily made for them unless it's a new thing or it's falling apart or, you know, budget, whatever.
00:16:27
Speaker
But it's a thing that you receive the tutu and there's at least a part of it that is a consistent piece that each ballerina signs their name. So you get to add your name to this like famed piece.
00:16:42
Speaker
And it's the same thing with like costumes. Where do you think they go? That's actually a great question. and Someday we'll actually do some research into that because it's so crazy and we bring it up every once in a while that there are things that are just thrown away. But like there's a reason why there are rental houses.
00:16:57
Speaker
is because you you are making it and then it has to go somewhere to be reused again because it's a great piece. I think that people are so disconnected from the process of where clothing comes from and where clothing goes to no matter the context that like it doesn't even enter their mind like where the cost like you know like but it's like you throw away a t-shirt it's not in your trash anymore but it doesn't disappear no and like The the whole concept handmade is another thing because I don't even want to. I can't even. cannot with a handmaid Before we move on from this topic, um I do want to say that a thing that this movie is not trying to tell us at all, but that I'm picking up on myself because there's the tailoring of this clothing and this clothing is all going to be worn.
00:17:57
Speaker
For a very long time, it's going to be treated very well because these are very, very wealthy people who are not working in these clothes in demanding jobs that are going to potentially have them rip and tear and be, you know, stained in like at risk. um Yeah. And then they might hand it off to somebody else like as a gift or they just might keep it and hand it off to their their children, whatever.
00:18:22
Speaker
But these things are going to be well taken care of. And so – 1939. Um, It'd be good if everybody learned how to sew.
00:18:33
Speaker
That's where I'm heading. Yeah. It's good. It's a good skill. And like you don't have to be the best. But just to be able to to maintain your clothing, to learn how to repair it. Yeah.
00:18:44
Speaker
yeah People will get rid of stuff because it has like a tiny hole in it because they don't know how to fix it in a way that looks, you know, good. So it's like, um yeah, it's a...
00:18:58
Speaker
Yes, but the people like you said, the people in this film, like they have like domestic workers in their homes. literally call them servants. They do. They really do There is a couple moments in this movie where I felt like I did like a serious whiplash over certain things that were said. and it can't It cannot be ignored. um There are things about the movie that I enjoyed and there are things about the movie that like made me go, oh my God, out loud. Yeah, so yeah this is 1939. It's about white women who have money. So there's going to be quite a few things that hit us over the head and go, sweet
Episode Conclusion and Preview
00:19:39
Speaker
Jesus. And I said that out loud a few times. So that was great. So just anyone who hasn't seen the movie and is thinking about watching it, um be prepared if you decide to watch the movie. ah There are some moments that will hit you like a big old truck, kind of ton of bricks. Yeah.
00:20:01
Speaker
But the hats are so good. Let's talk about these hats and then we'll talk about this fashion show. First of all, who did you have some favorite dressed characters in this?
00:20:12
Speaker
Yes. um I would say that one of my favorite characters was... um Mrs. Fowler. yep Who is, by the way, a villain. oh my God. She's a villain in the in my favorite way The way that I identify with the most and see myself in. Yeah. But I loved her her costumes because they really walked to the line between what was popular at the time and what looks absolutely ridiculous. like There was such a perfect like push and pull between...
00:20:53
Speaker
you know moments where she was like honestly like quite fashionable and moments where you're like, what is that? they how big is that, Bo? They made a choice with this character that he was going to have a lot of vertical Yes. She's a taller actress too. And like absolutely gorgeous. But they were like, you know what? She's taller than pretty much everybody our cast. So we're always going to have something on her head that's like it's really acting up. And like sometimes her hair will be a ah a step away from the glamour that everybody else is aiming for. It's not like...
00:21:31
Speaker
totally ridiculous yeah but it is ridiculous yes like she'll have like there's a there's there's a scene almost said episode there's a scene where she and another character are working out with a trainer in like a gym and first of all the trainer is in a dress with like strappy sandals which i thought was like amazing oh she looked so good little kitten heeled sandals The two of them are in matching like skorts, like pleated skorts with like matching tops. But um Sylvia Fowler has like this crazy hairstyle that's almost like suitable for like a younger woman with this giant bow on top of her head. It's like, why is this here? It's just here because this is how crazy this character is. She's got a fight scene where a hat... The hat is pinned amazingly into her head because the only part that gets torn away is the rim of the hat, the brim. But like this is just – has so much going on.
00:22:32
Speaker
And do you have any other characters that like really struck you? I quite enjoyed the daughter. i cannot think of the character's name. She's like eight or nine. as She's a child. They don't really care what to talk about. Yeah, buts not pretty sure children are meant to be seen and not heard. Like, this is that era of like, be quiet, the adults are talking. um But she was like, the future junior Republican looking. girl like she was so she was dressed like a little adult very like 18th century of her to be dressed like a little madam and she kept referring to her parents as oh mother darling daddy dearest and it was just like this is insane this is a lot of words for crazy shit yeah
00:23:23
Speaker
And we like watched her trauma in real time. And one of the last scenes of the movie, she like snapped at someone and she said, my job is to make sure that mother always feels cheerful. and I was like, oh, no.
00:23:36
Speaker
Oh, my God. ah She like finds out that her parents are getting divorced. And she's like, all right, mother. That's all right. I'll see you in a few minutes. And then she like leaves the room, closes the door and goes, mother, darling. Daddy, darling. It's like the exact scene from Love Actually where where um Emma Thompson like has a breakdown in her bedroom when she finds out her husband's cheating, but she's like nine. She's got Joni Mitchell playing up for her breakdown. I wish I had a river.
00:24:09
Speaker
And then in the thralls of her like emotional reckoning with her parents' divorce, she's like, why couldn't you try hard her mother? Like it's like so insane. First of all, the whole plot of this is garbage.
00:24:22
Speaker
And I did look because I explained it to Phil and he was like, did a man write this? And I was like, you know what? Let me look. course they did. It's based on a play written by a woman. Wow. And it was directed by a man, but it's based on a play written by a woman. So I don't know the differences. I'm going to say it. Not a girl's girl. Okay. These women. Okay. If you have friends like this, you don't need enemies. Honestly. At least these friends. like Honestly. So our main character, Mary, Stephen Haynes. Oh, my God. She is something else. And then her cousin is this wild character that we both are appreciating very much, Sylvia Fowler, who's a real pain in the ass. She is...
00:25:06
Speaker
but she She finds out immediately in this movie that um because she's getting her nails done and the nail girl is sharing some gossip. Indiscreet technician. Wow. She's talking about Stephen Haynes stepping out with this perfume counter girl. And, um oh, isn't that just horrible? Isn't it delicious how terrible it is? And the cousin, Sylvia, just lights up from inside.
00:25:29
Speaker
Oh, my God. She's never had a better day. And she just starts spreading this shit around to all their friends and their friends. their community. Like they're all supposed to go over to Mary's house and she, we are introduced to her. She's supposed to be living this bucolic life with her daughter, her husband that she loves. They're riding horses, all this stuff.
00:25:47
Speaker
And then, um, all these women like to send on her house for lunch and they're like, Oh, have you heard anything weird recently? How's Steven? buying perfume so horrible like and it's just like her cousin is just like delighting in this and i didn't know that this was her cousin until an hour and 38 minutes in me too was like out loud says my cousin are we are we meant to know that i'm like is there like social cues that i just don't understand that i don't know because i felt blindsided
00:26:21
Speaker
but Yeah, because they have different last names, obviously, yeah because she's like she I don't I assume she's Stephen's cousin because she sticks with Stephen in the divorce like he gets her in the divorce. Ooh, I wonder. but I don't know that fight that they have.
00:26:38
Speaker
Yes. And so I don't know if she was like trying to punish her for that. I don't know. I don't know who she belongs to. I don't know how anybody's related to. Yeah. I'm sure. There's another – there's this – all this is like we never see any men.
00:26:53
Speaker
Yes. There's like maybe a couple pictures or something of men like on the wall. But like we never see any men. We never hear any men. No. And though the world of women that is depicted in this is such – garbage because it's just all these women praying for each other's downfall or being entertained by each other's downfall and like yes supporting each other there is a little bit of that but it's like ah kind of few and far between for the representation of all these women who are like enjoying
00:27:24
Speaker
watching women dislike each other. Yeah. Cause like the entire movie really revolves around the central relationship of Mary and Steven, Steven, whom, like you said, we do not see, we never see him. And it's like,
00:27:42
Speaker
You know, her finding out that he's cheating, her trying to grapple with like what she should do, eventually deciding she wants to get a divorce. She has to go to Reno to get it. So we get to go to a ranch, which is delightful. Yeah.
00:27:58
Speaker
We put a pin in that because we have to come back to talk about it. We will come back for sure. But like even when when she's like first processing, like, okay, my husband is cheating on me. This feels horrible. like I am so devastated. And her mother comes to give her motherly advice on how to deal with it. And her mother's advice is suck it up. Yeah.
00:28:22
Speaker
And it's like so much it's it. And it comes back again and again because like she tells her daughter, well, your father did it to me. And her daughter's like, what? And she's like, well, you know, men just they just want to they're they're tired themselves at a certain point in marriage. So they just kind of need to like, you know, be revitalized. Just let him have it.
00:28:44
Speaker
And then like repeatedly tells her daughter, To like pick herself up off the floor and get over it. Yeah. Then she's like, why are you making such a big fuss? Like, yeah, does get divorced. She's like, well, I don't know why you're so upset. Stephen's happy. and it's like, oh, thank God. Stephen's happy. that i was so worried. But it makes the end of the movie you slash play that much worse because it's a horror movie. It's like, you know, spoilers, everyone for the end, just be warned. um You know, she goes through with the divorce. We do like a big time jump. We go like 18 months in the future and he's remarried the
00:29:25
Speaker
The perfume counter girl. And she's like the wicked stepmother from hell. And. Joan Crawford. I mean like. She's straight up Joan Crawford. In every way. and you know, you know, Mary, who's, I guess, I don't know, taking the high road. I don't know how you would describe what she's been doing up until this point. um She like gets her little like catty revenge in the women's powder room and like exposes everyone's whatever, whatever.
00:29:54
Speaker
And it ends with her husband realizing that he you know, offstage, offstage, realizing that he wants to be with her. And she's like, literally runs to him.
00:30:06
Speaker
And it's like, she's so happy that he wants her back. And that is like the end of the movie. And I was just like, Okay. literally like the camera like centers her and then she she like makes eyes, locks eyes with this person that you don't see off screen, opens her arms and the camera zooms in then a little bit and then black. And it's just like, this is a horror movie. What it actually reminds me of is The um Greta Gerwig Little Women, the speech that Amy gives yeah to um Laurie, which this is the first time that I've ever liked the character of Amy, is that version of Little Women. Honestly. That she lectures Laurie when he's just romanticizing marriage. And she's like...
00:30:53
Speaker
you can do that just fine but this is an economic like this is this is about money i can't make money from a job this is about security if i have children they're not mine they belong to him they're his property like this is about security this is about safety yes of course like this has to be a practical thing so for me this whole movie i was just like It feels like Mary comes from money. It feels like she's got money from the divorce because she has an apartment that's like a luxury apartment. And it doesn't really seem like she has to work. But it seems still that like she immediately – there's no question that she's always going to want Stephen back because yeah the security that comes with that marriage is unparalleled. And like fuck Stephen. Yeah.
00:31:45
Speaker
but like I know. And it's it's such a bizarre it's such a bizarre take on what women should want out of their lives. Because at the very beginning, when Mary's discussing all of this with her mom and kind of trying to figure out where she's sort of at, she says, like, you know,
00:32:10
Speaker
My like our time is not your time, mother, and my marriage is not your marriage, mother, and my marriage is a partnership. And my husband and i decided to build this family together. and at the end, you're sort of like, OK, what was that? What did you mean by that? That was just like thrown in there, because overall, we see usually when we see usually when I have seen stories that have this kind of.
00:32:37
Speaker
just accept that your husband's going to cheat on you kind of thing. um We're used to seeing more restrictive clothing from a different time period, right? We're used to seeing more, I'm a doll on a shelf and like, I'm not allowed to access certain things because of my station.
00:32:55
Speaker
And in this one, we do see more relaxed clothing all throughout. Like there, there is very, high class like we're having a party kind of like embroidered to the gods beaded to the gods like crystals all over the place um hat hats hats hat hats but like we also first furs first firsts furs over a night gap like come on now but like We do see her once she's like getting divorced in Reno at the ranch, which we will talk about more. There's more relaxed like denim and plaid because yes that's the quick language to we're in the West. We're in the country. And like lower hair without, you know, all the the fussiness of the like very specific styles that everybody has pressed. But like...
00:33:41
Speaker
It's still the same story without that being challenged at all. And it's like, I i dislike the character of the other woman. um Yeah.
00:33:53
Speaker
Joan Crawford plays her so well. I mean, she's a cartoon villain. she's she's She knows she's a villain. She doesn't care. She's just like, ah whatever. When I'm done with this one, I'll find another one. And it's just like, okay. But like... i I do have to admit that I have an equal obsession with embroidery that is in common with our villainess, Crystal Allen, because like she keeps bringing up embroidered dresses. Oh, she like can't get enough. And I'm just like, girl, me too. She said she she's at like the fashion show and she said, bring me all the embroidered ones. Bring them to me. Hey, that navy one?
00:34:32
Speaker
The one that has the embroidery? Bring that one to me. And like the transatlantic kind the accent in this is insane. But... Oh my god. Yeah. So the whole plot of this is is awful. it like It just feels like...
00:34:46
Speaker
womanhood is awful. Like the relationship that you have with other women is strictly conditional of where you are in relation to men. And that is like so gross.
00:34:57
Speaker
It's I think I i mean, i I can't confirm, but in my heart, it is true. This may be the only movie I've ever seen with no men that doesn't pass the Bechdel test. I know. Isn't that insane? Like the whole is just about men who aren't in the room. Yeah.
00:35:14
Speaker
And it's all of these women. And it's like, I i feel very much. Okay. So I don't know if you've ever seen this, but there is a movie called the other woman. um I've never seen that. It's got Cameron Diaz and, uh,
00:35:28
Speaker
Leslie... Sorry, I'm going to look it up. Sorry, didn't know you. um Leslie Mann and Kate Upton. Oh! Okay. It's totally like a... yes somewhere Let's go see a movie kind of movie. yeah um But i it it follows this kind of a thing where there's this woman married to a man. They have a beautiful relationship. She thinks that they're super happy.
00:35:52
Speaker
And then she finds out that he's super cheating on her. and so she like... stalks the other woman because she's like, she's so beautiful and she's so cool and I'm nothing like that.
00:36:04
Speaker
but Terrible. They kind of become friends um and they like want to get revenge on him and they especially want to get revenge on him when they find out that he's cheating on the other woman with another woman. And so they can script the third woman and all three are like, fuck this guy. He sucks. But they bond together where they have conversations that don't include talking about anything There are conversations that aren't, I think, just about men. And it was like, oh, what a what a what a way to graduate this. Which, like, I know there are conversations in this movie that aren't about men, but, like, the spiritually, the movie does not pass the Bechdel test. No, it's crazy. At all. ok Oh, so and I just want to say, this has nothing to do with anything, but...
00:36:53
Speaker
One of the things that I love about miss foul Mrs. Fowler is that at the fashion show, she is sitting there knitting while watching the fashion show. And I've never felt more seen. and isn't that the one where she has this like headpiece that looks like an exploding... Like a fountain exploding. Fountain ribbon. Yeah. And there's like a netting all at the bottom of it.
00:37:16
Speaker
It is so inexplicable. so it's just like she just constantly has her hats were the ones that I really paid attention to the most because they're just ever present. Yeah. um But any kind of shape of hat We're not talking about fedoras. We're not talking about men's hats, of course, right? Like yeah the 30s and 40s, I think for me, have some of the most entertaining women's hats. Like i love looking at them and like they're just so bonkers. And in school when we were learning millinery, we actually had a project with Buckram where um we took it and we like wetted it and we just, were the task was to find any object in the classroom and make a hat out of it. So a friend of mine made a hat out of a tape dispenser because the buckram molded to it. And then you just build a base that you can secure to your head and then it becomes essentially a wild looking and little fascinator, right? Yeah. So this is the era of fascinators, little hats that are
00:38:21
Speaker
bonkers as hell and asymmetrical and like peaked and like some of them are like little party hats. I mean, thats I challenge anyone watching this film to find a hat that sits level on a head. ever real there ever It's at a jaunty angle.
00:38:37
Speaker
Every angle is jaunty. There are some daring ones that I was not expecting. So in the fashion show... oh my god, I just love this fashion show sequence because like, what a cool event. And also, it the movies in black and white, the fashion show is in color. Yes. That is an important factor. Yeah, this was a little bit of like Wizard of Oz trickery where you're like, wait a minute, habawa? But like, the fashion show has so many different levels and it's like,
00:39:08
Speaker
Each sort of outfit, they have a little background that comes on stage to, like, emphasize what this is for. So if it's yeah like, beachy, there's, like, a very highly designed... There's little And so um there's this one sequence where...
00:39:24
Speaker
It looks almost like the fashion show's over and a curtain comes down and like you you're – okay. In the forefront, you see a woman who's one of the models like take a bow and then walk off and behind her is a stage that looks like the stage you've been looking at. A curtain comes down, the lights come up in the midground and these people that you thought were flat are more models dressed in evening wear and they step up and that's how you see the evening wear. yes There is this insane lime like bias cut gown that i loved. And the best part is the hat where it has almost like this turban inspired.
00:40:09
Speaker
it's it's not It doesn't look like a turban at all. It's just that there's this piece of fabric that matches the dress that's wrapped around the base of the hat. Twisted, yeah. Which is... A clear plastic cone. Oh, yeah. Cone that her hair is like dressed up into. It's just so crazy. And it's so evocative of this period of time where people were discovering different types of plastics. Oh, my God. And we're just pushing them anywhere. And there's another sequence. I think of a beachy one. she has like a plastic visor. yeah that's like, of course, at the angle. And then there's a third one where these women are, sorry, feeding caged monkeys. Okay, the monkeys are wearing copies of the outfit. Yes, they are matching the models. They're like little capuchin monkeys. insane
00:41:04
Speaker
there's There's like these amazing coats and jackets in that scene. One of them is again green and feels like it belongs in The Wizard of Oz. Yes. And then there was like a knit cropped sweater with like chunky sleeves. Oh my God. I loved it. oh I loved it so much. And then like the, the, the, the beachy clear visor that you're talking about was underneath like a Bedouin inspired cloak.
00:41:34
Speaker
Yeah. Just that yards in yard one piece bathing suit. And I was just like, Oh my God, why don't we do this? You know what i'm saying? I know. Like the The very first sequence was like sporty. So it was like tennis and it was like whatever. I've never wanted to play badminton more in my life than to like wear one of those outfits. I mean, culottes on culottes. all over the way. And then there went – like I think it's the first thing that we get in the beach or the second one is – because it's like a pretty seamless transition. But there's this –
00:42:08
Speaker
coat or jacket that the model opens up and the inside lining is hands picking roses. oh and my And then she closes it really close to the camera and there's a giant like real sized hand broach. wood carved? with a With a wedding ring on it. holding a rose all you and that's like the center closure. You know she has to be married. ah She's a respectable woman. She's not a floozy. Like the the details in this are wonderful because they are an example of like –
00:42:47
Speaker
you know, meta reality. Right. And like the, the whole fashion show concept is so cool and theatrical. And I appreciated all of that. And like, but there's so many clothes in this that are, like you said before, the amount of tailoring that has to happen is bonkers. Yeah.
00:43:08
Speaker
It made me wonder, like, because obviously, you know, you have like known movie stars in the film playing like our main characters. So like they're coming in they're getting fitted, like adjustments are being made. I wanted to know more about the models in the fashion show because...
00:43:23
Speaker
It sounded like that idea to put that in the movie was like a later addition because they wanted to capitalize on being able to have a sequence in color. Right. And so it made me wonder like what kind of timeframe they would have had to make all of that stuff because there are so many outfits just in the fashion sequence. It's not like just one – Yeah, it's not like one tennis outfit. It's like seven. And then it's like seven beach outfits. These women are constantly like crossing each other. It's like when you think of Rockettes, like the choreographed walking across stage stops. Like, you know, it's just like it's very choreographed and it's constant so that people are being like thrilled by what they're seeing. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole concept of having fashion shows like this where you see the fashion show and then you like disperse and there's like a little party element. The models are still walking through the crowd and some of them are like literally saying what they're wearing. And there's this one who like walks in and out of scenes and she's, I don't remember what she says, but she very specifically points out that there's no boning. Yeah. She's like new all in one. and
00:44:34
Speaker
Like night it's like, yeah, it's like, um, Like before like underwear that we know it now existed it was like a more like a loose like a little like satiny short kind of moment and she's in one that's like a full like a little onesie and she's like new all in one zips up the back no boning and she's just like. walks around. It's so like the idea of all of this and then like dressing rooms and like you can pick out a dressing room and you can order things to be brought there and like some of the models are wearing them so that you can look at them up close. I was just like what an opportunity to show like
00:45:11
Speaker
this space that women are where it's like, this is what these women do, but still make men for the love of God. Yeah. I mean, like you would think that the scene would be about like, you know, delightful clothes and your friends, but it is just psychological warfare in there. the two women are across from each other in the hallway. And then the women who are working there are all like, Oh, this is awful.
00:45:38
Speaker
Yeah. They're like, oh, but she's so sweet. This is awful that it's happening to her. You know, like just talking about it. And everybody talks so loud, too, that I'm like, is everybody just pretending not to hear the judgmental shit that everybody's saying really loud?
00:45:54
Speaker
I do think that is how people existed in the past. And I don't want to be corrected if I'm wrong. but i mean, I believe it, too. it's It's wild where it's like, oh, you this is just what you do. So I don't even hear what you say unless it's in response directly to something that I'm asking you. I think there's.
00:46:09
Speaker
There's a scene in this with a princess. there's a scene think she's I thought she was a countess. There's a countess, but at oh there' also show oh at the end of the fashion show, there's a woman that Sylvia Fowler accosts and she's wearing this two-tone cape over this like gorgeous bias dress that has like strapped like different pieces of fabric in straps like going down her body. It's very lovely, but they keep calling her princess. Silvia jumps up and tries to show her how she should wear it, and she's like, oh my god! And everybody's like, whoa, whoa, whoa!
00:46:46
Speaker
So... There's also when Mary. OK, so there's this scene after the fashion show. These like main women are sitting together. This princess gets across it. Then um Joan Crawford, Crystal Allen walks in and Sylvia goes, oh, I'm so sorry that you have to be here for this, Mary. And Mary is like, what are you talking about? She's like, that's the other woman, Crystal. Yeah. And so Mary is like stunned and is just like, I've got to go I've got to go. i'm I'm going to be late for my fitting. So she stands up. She walks. It's like a one shot where she walks through all these other women at their post fashion show business. And then there's like models walking in front of her. And there's one model who walks in front of her and spins. And her dress –
00:47:33
Speaker
chef kiss because I don't even care what the dress is. It had these two details that were shoulder like details. almost want to say that they're like probably not brooches, but they're like details that you can add to the dress probably. They were freaking saddles.
00:47:50
Speaker
but Foreshadowing? With stirrups. Okay. Foreshadowing? ah For real. And so this the saddles are like astride her shoulders as if her shoulders are these horses. And the little stirrups, there's one that on each side in front and one in back. And I couldn't believe my eyes. It was like, I'm sorry, why did we let that go away? That's bonkers. Yeah.
00:48:13
Speaker
I love how she goes into the dressing room to like have her mental breakdown and you're like, ah, i see where your daughter learned it from. ah Oh, generational trauma. Oh, I'm watching it happen in real time. Oh, good, good, good. um But i think this is a perfect time to transition out west to Reno because of course, in those days, you had to go to Reno to get a quickie divorce. Or you had to go to Reno just to watch. got to kill somebody. It's Just to watch them die. Just to watch them But I think it's like it was one of the only places in the U.S. where you didn't actually really have to You could establish residency in like a matter of weeks and then petition for a no fault divorce and just get it done. So that was like the place. But I loved the woman whose business was a boarding house for future divorcee while they established residency in Reno. What an incredible thing. Loved her. oh my God. I loved her. And the freaking Countess.
00:49:20
Speaker
She rocks up and she is dressed like Western Bowser. Like, Literally, i was like, how could how could one describe the, like, literal leather studded gauntlets that this woman is wearing? looked up a picture of Bowser.
00:49:41
Speaker
she's got this, like, bandana hanging, very low, scarf bandana. She's got pearl necklaces. One, two, three, four. five six pearl necklaces maybe she's got these giant ass gauntlets and a belt that matches so they're studded so they catch the light of course it's black and white in this sequence so it's just light catching and then like a wrestler wstler With these big gemstone rings. she's probably Her nails are probably red. And she's got like her hair all done up. She's got makeup. And she's got a plaid shirt on with these like high pants. like And everything she does, she ends with like yippee, yippee-yi-yay somehow.
00:50:26
Speaker
but She is so excited to be in the great outdoors. It so crazy. I also love that not one moment of this movie was filmed outside. like There's like this outside thing where, you know, the Countess is supposed to be walking. They're walking and talking. Then there's like a little fight, not with the Countess. She's peaced out already. There's like horses that we see at different times, like in somebody's backyard uh here in reno and it's so very much a studio set it's crazy like yes and the countess is like singing when she's walking away from a conversation with mary she's singing yippee something because all the singing in this is just yelling and she just turned her back to the camera and she's like well i'm off into the wilderness i guess and she just climbs up a fence
00:51:19
Speaker
and over it and then she's out of sight and it's like what is this first of all what is this second of all where are we it's like i don't understand anything it's not important to understand it's only important to experience and let it just watch over you my god and there's this woman played by believe marjorie main who is the woman who's like running the place i think or is she Yeah. And her hair, she's had it.
00:51:48
Speaker
Oh, she's had she's like, she's like 40. And she's lived a hard for years. She's got this amazing messy bun, right? Where it's just like, I don't care. the hair is up. It's out of my way. There's flyaways all over the place. She's wearing this dress that the collar is all wonky because we're supposed to understand that she's working and she's tired.
00:52:11
Speaker
And like her sleeves are a little bit wonky, like one's a little bit folded over. Like there's just like little details to make her look yeah too tired to give a shit. Yeah. But she is wearing this dress that's polka dots with like a couple stripes and a handkerchief hanging out the pocket. Thank you very much. sad droopy. but it has these giant buttons that I know and we all know.
00:52:34
Speaker
if we've ever spent time with buttons or vintage, these giant like 50 cent piece sized buttons that are bright white plastic.
00:52:46
Speaker
And I it just made me think about my grandmother's sister when she passed away. All her stuff came to my grandma. My grandma was like, have at it. Go pick out some clothes. And I pulled out some blouses and That were from, i want to say, the late seventy s early 80s. And they were just the most polyester you could ever imagine. and they had these kinds of buttons. And like, there's just, there's something very specific about massive buttons that have very, very big spaces between each button placement that like put me in a place in time. And I'm like, girl, I get it. You're tired. Yeah. I see you. It's just like all of this is so deliberate because, you know, all of these like wealthier women, they have closures that are invisible or are very, very statement PC. Like Mary has this um outfit that she's wearing earlier in the movie when she's cleaning up after watching
00:53:47
Speaker
like movies with her daughter, like home movies. And she's packing up a projector and talking with her mom. She's got this like striped bomber bomber jacket that just closes like at the waist with one button and these like trousers with oval pockets. And so it's just like when you look at people of different classes in this movie, you can tell based on – the materials that you can see, even though it's black and white. Yeah. And I love how they coded Crystal because she's like the tacky social climber is like the, the type that she's like playing. And so when she, you know, marries Steven and becomes the new, the new Mrs. Haynes, it's like, she's got access to all the same high end clothes that,
00:54:37
Speaker
Mary had but she doesn't have you know that that upper upper class level of taste you know it's so important the taste they care so much about taste and she does not have it and so everything that she wears is still Just a little bit over the top and just like a little bit tacky and just like a little bit too much, even though she's just as wealthy suddenly as all of these other people. Yeah. And like they have her with her Joan Crawford eyebrows, right? The like very thin penciled on eyebrows for the time.
00:55:10
Speaker
And because she's the only person that we see with that dramatic fashion. it makes her stand out yeah even more because I don't think that we really see anybody else who looks like that unless they're meant to be like a shop girl. Right. um she She has a few moments where her – her costume or the scene that she's in is so crazy. Like one of them, cause like the first time we see her, she's wearing her uniform for, you know, the, the store that she works at. yeah It's just a black dress. It's very simple, very plain conservative. Yeah. And um I'm like jumping all over the place. Shocker, but there's a scene with her and Sylvia Fowler,
00:55:54
Speaker
Where Crystal's in a bathtub. Yes. And she's got like. a pillow, like a massive like cushion behind her head. The bubbles are up to heaven and she's got a phone in the bathtub. And like from the side of the bathtub, you can see into it because it's like clear glass. So you can see where the water levels at and then the bubbles are obscuring everything else. But the phone is like, i swear to God, it's in the water and in the bubbles. And this is the time when the phones had like cloth covered
00:56:29
Speaker
cloth wrap or whatever for the cords. Oh, yeah. like How are we not all dead? This is not. I think it's it's like at one point when she gets mad, she like pushes it and it it's like on like a tiny tray that like slides along the edge of the tub or something. There's some kind of contraption going This whole bathtub is like, it makes me feel like ah the 90s Casper when we go in like the secret workshop that his father had in like their manor whatever where it feels almost like little bit steampunky where it's like what are we doing everything here is insane and like ah Sylvia Fowler comes in and she's dressed like like a genie
00:57:09
Speaker
She never like I never looked so good. Never looked so good. So crazy. And like I know that that was not specifically about Crystal. But like the fact that she has this whole scene in the bathtub where she's basically just wearing bubbles is like so crazy to me. I think at one point she wears a curtain like a shower curtain because she like gets out of the tub. And it's like she has visitors during this time because there's like man who comes in. The little girl comes in. the Sylvia Fowler comes in. And then at the end of the movie, I think that what you were talking about where she stands out because she has the same access, but the way that she wears it or what she's choosing, there's like something missing from it. Yeah. where Maybe it's accessories or like another layer that would make her fit in with the other women. And so they're like at this big party.
00:57:59
Speaker
Yeah, and she's like, it's all evening gowns, and so there's like beautiful cuts, beautiful draping, and accents of like glitz and sequin and bead, and then Crystal comes in and she's like head to toe sequin. With sparkles sparkle.
00:58:20
Speaker
In the dress. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's just like... There's something about this sort of society people that they like, they pride themselves on this like weird sense of like restraint.
00:58:33
Speaker
You know, you can't ever be too happy. You can't ever be too ostentatious. And so anything, if you want to make your character feel garish and out of place with the the fancy rich people, you just have to push it a little bit into being more showy.
00:58:50
Speaker
And it'll automatically look tacky because they pride themselves so much on like never being too much yeah in a way that I hate. too Yeah. so She's she's funny because she's just truly ah an awful person. But it's nice because she knows it and she just doesn't really give a shit. Yeah. Yeah. So like whenever you see her on on screen, I almost said on stage, whenever you see her on screen, she's just hemming it up so much. And there's so much of her wardrobe that I want to see what it looked like in color because she's always gravitating towards like her characters talking about the embroidered pieces, but she's always gravitating towards the ones that are shiny. Yeah. So there are multiple times that she's in sort of like, it almost like reads like a
00:59:38
Speaker
like a plasticky metallic, but it's probably a woven. And like, there's a headpiece that goes with it, like a giant robe, like all these different things where she's just constantly at a thousand. And then she's like trying to make these other women look dowdy in a way, because like she's so over the top and like theatrical in how she portrays herself.
01:00:00
Speaker
And there's just a lot to enjoy about that. Honestly, there really is. It's almost ah wonderful. um
01:00:10
Speaker
Is there any other i think that's like kind of all of the main things that I was like, well, we have to talk about that. Is there anything else? I think the last thing, final touch is just like we talked about it very quickly and then went past it.
01:00:24
Speaker
Toward the very end of the movie, Mary gets this idea when she's like going to sleep and her daughter's like getting ready to sleep in her bed and she says something and Mary goes, hold on.
01:00:36
Speaker
I've got to go. She's in a nightgown and she just whips this giant white fur coat slash robe out of nowhere. And she's like hustling everybody like, I got to get out of here and I've got to make this thing happen. And it's like, first of all,
01:00:52
Speaker
How far are you going in that nightgown and that white coat? Because it almost makes it seem like you're about to bust outside with this because you're like so ready for this thing. Right. And we know you're not. Yeah. And it's like, are we using that strictly indoors? Is that just your evening robe? Is that a coat that you wear outside? What is it? And what is your wardrobe? Because this is nuts that you had this on hand like immediately to go with. yet, I wish. i mean but It's just, it's like Cruella de Vil level, like theatrical, poofy Kermit. And that was like the thing that stuck me at the end before we get to the glitzy party scene. But I was just like, this is phenomenal that somebody shoved this hat. This movie just feels very, very full of clothing, of fashion and like different different cuts, different styles, different hats. um
01:01:46
Speaker
And so I think that it's worth seeing for that, but be aware of the time appropriate attitudes towards black women. Yeah. There's some really horrible little moments because yes we see a couple black women, but purely in like a domestic labor environment. They're not being talked to respectfully. No. And so like, I absolutely understand not wanting to see that because when I saw it, I was like barf Yeah. Million percent. So if you just want to see clothes, IMDb does have a good capture of like a bunch of the costumes. Yeah. um
01:02:30
Speaker
But this stands as an example of how much you can shove in there. The scenes are so quick that everybody has a million things to wear. So I wonder what this would be like in its original form as a play.
01:02:44
Speaker
If you're doing it. Yeah. Like slamming door style, because yes. Yes. This would be fun to do a version of that doesn't make me want to throw up in my mouth based on the actual story itself. Of the slamming door vibe of just like running the pace going so fast and having all these people kind of one upping each other. Yeah.
01:03:05
Speaker
I always wonder about that when when you're watching something and you know that it was a play and you're watching it as a movie. Yeah. It's like i I'm trying to picture in my head what it would have looked like on stage when there are more limitations to place how many places you can go and how fast you can go to them and um how quickly you can cut to a scene where everyone's dressed completely differently. like it's ah But you know at least it keeps the consistency that none of this movie was filmed outside. So in that way... It's still very similar to doing it on stage because these are constructed sets. 100%. Not one hundred percent real location used. Not a not a full house anywhere. Yeah.
01:03:54
Speaker
yeah So to that was the women. Engage with it if you dare, i guess. Yeah. it's It's like I say for all of these movies. It is. it is um you have to prepare yourself. Yeah.
01:04:09
Speaker
for tone, for timing, for yeah content, for all of it. And it's not necessarily going to change quickly as we move, you know, forward in time. no no. So, you know, just constantly have to be vigilant, I think.
01:04:25
Speaker
Please join us on our next episode where we're going be talking about Funny Face with Audrey Hepburn. I've only seen a few minutes of it before. And so I know that it's, you know, Audrey Hepburn classic, classic, classic. So looking forward to seeing what made it a classic, classic, classic. um But we are definitely jumping from 1939 into the 50s. And then we're going to be kind of following that trajectory throughout the rest of the season where we're going to be doing it like a little bit in blocks, but it's not going to be a smooth transition from decade to decade. where yeah We're following our heart and our spirit. That's right. And mostly we're kind of just following like what fashion is interesting to Yeah.
01:05:09
Speaker
so Right. Yeah. know But we are definitely interested in getting away from just looking at clothes about like rich white people so if anyone has a recommendation of a movie that falls outside of that category that is yeah very welcome we are trying to you know to you know create like more more perspectives on this list but you know hollywood seems focused on certain types of people did you know
01:05:41
Speaker
So we're going to do our best um this season. Thank you so much for any suggestions like from here, um if you have any. And yeah, follow along if you would like.
01:05:52
Speaker
Yeah. See you next time. See you then.