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Mahogany- It's Diana Ross
26 Plays5 days ago
Need we say more? This movie is a trip, but one we hope you'll want to take.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Hot Set' Podcast and 'Mahogany'
00:00:00
Speaker
I'm Melinda. I'm Ariel. This is Hot Set, the movie podcast about costume design.
00:00:22
Speaker
Welcome back. This is our episode about Mahogany 1975 starring Diana Ross, ah Billy Dee Williams, Anthony Perkins, and quite a few other people. Some of them Who are dressed by Diana Ross. We'll talk about it in a minute. ah Mainly Diana Ross. ah But this is 1975 movie ah directed by Barry Gordy, Tony Richardson, Jack Wormser. Sorry, only recognize Barry Gordy's name.
00:00:51
Speaker
ahavius Same here. The synopsis on IMDb. Very brief. Two sentences. Tracy is a black girl with no financial resources who struggles to be able to afford fashion college. Her goal is to become an internationally famous fashion designer. Boom.
00:01:09
Speaker
Bang. Bada. Yeah. We
Diana Ross's Role in Costume Design
00:01:11
Speaker
got it. We understand. Straightforward. And boy, howdy. This is this is like a full circle story with like a big rise.
00:01:20
Speaker
And I think my favorite part is when i got to watch Melinda's face when right before recording, she said, I forgot to look up who the costume designer was.
00:01:32
Speaker
I said, oh, I'm going to watch your face. And I maximized her window so I could see her face real big on my computer screen. ah Because our costume designer is listed as Diana Ross. And there is a wardrobe team that I think consists of like four other people. But um at least on the IMDb credits. But Diana Ross for sure designed Diana Ross's costumes. Right. I don't have...
00:02:01
Speaker
real confirmation that, you know, she did or did not have anything to do with anybody else's, but she would have had her hands full as someone who had not done costume design with her own wardrobe as her character, Tracy. yeah So I'm making an assumption that the other wardrobe crew worked on extras and second leads. Right.
00:02:26
Speaker
Smaller characters. and Exactly. Yeah. But like, how did, let's go to you, Melinda. oh no. your What were your first impressions? What are, what are, what are your first impressions of of the costumes? Yeah, actually, um I really enjoyed, i feel like it was kind of similar to our last movie in that I really enjoyed the the juxtaposition between the sort of like, here's this like high fashion world and it's very textural and it's very colorful and it's very bold and there's like a lot happening and it's just like very...
00:03:06
Speaker
can go into these like avant-garde places. And then we have like this entire other cast of characters that are just supposed to be regular people living regular lives. Like, you know, some struggling, some middle-class, some upper-class, but like they're not in this like fashion-y world. And so I enjoyed kind of getting like a range of of different people and perspectives because I feel like it...
00:03:34
Speaker
can highlight the differences between these ah modes of costume, if that makes sense. um
Comparisons in Costume Design: Ross vs. Watson
00:03:45
Speaker
So I was like, very pleased to see the kind of like,
00:03:50
Speaker
the ah relationships that she has with different people throughout the movie and how that like changes and or doesn't and ah and how that can be expressed through ah even just her clothing, let alone like everybody else. But that was kind of my like overview. what, what what's your overview?
00:04:13
Speaker
i Did see that Diana Ross designed it. Yes. Like at the beginning I pulled up the IMDb. And so I went into it with that knowledge and I was looking at all of her characters clothing and I was pretty excited about it because like.
00:04:33
Speaker
i showed you a little, there's like an edited video that's an Instagram video. So if you, if you out there want to look up like, you know, Diana Ross on costume design for, for mahogany, there are interviews where she talks about it. And there's this little Instagram video that somebody edited together, two different interviews from 1975. And it, I was telling Melinda that it feels like the first one was like pre-filming and then the second one is after. Because Diana Ross like got voted, think in high school, best dressed, like best fashion. And she says that she had goals of like going into fashion and costume. Like she loves clothing and loves that, which I think you can tell throughout her storied career as a performer. But like this was her opportunity dip her toes into that. And I think that she took advantage fully being a part of the process because like there's a lot of embroidered and like,
00:05:28
Speaker
high fashion stuff that has like finishing and all this. And she was part of that. She was part of the purchasing of special fabrics. And just like she did the job of a costume designer and um did it really well, I think. And then also it made me think of, I'm always so sorry, Emma Watson, but I'm always like this woman in front of us strays in every episode like just that beauty and the beast and melinda hasn't seen that beauty and the beast which is like that's gonna be something someday because i need to hear your impressions can we refer to that as being as someone who's never seen that as being like a gold star costume designer
00:06:15
Speaker
like I've never had my mind polluted by it. does It's a perfect example because this is not these are not the only two films where this has happened. This is part of costuming, especially when you're costuming somebody that is very famous. Yeah.
00:06:31
Speaker
they do have more input. And we've talked about this before in past episodes, but beauty the beast and that stupid gold dress. That dress yellow. I wouldn't even call it gold. There's a visible zipper on the back and that's infuriating. And it looks like, I can't, I can't get into it. can't get into it because we'll never leave. But like these two things are diametrically opposed.
00:06:52
Speaker
Perfect examples of having someone who is, very high in their career, who's super talented and has strong opinions, um be a part of a field that isn't their field technically. Right. Right. And, um,
00:07:13
Speaker
i feel like the Beauty the Beast version was someone, i have an idea and that's it. I'm not going to take any input. I'm not going to do anything. I'm not going to try to make it fit this world. I'm only going to think about myself and the character that I am representing and how this fits my vision.
00:07:34
Speaker
And then everything else has to do a lot of heavy lifting to carry my decisions that are very two-dimensional shade intended. um
Tracy's Fashion Journey and Personal Struggles
00:07:44
Speaker
And Diana Ross's designs are not that at all. no They are exactly like someone who knows fashion, who cares about the clothing and who knows how clothing sits on her own body and how to wear certain things. But beyond that,
00:08:03
Speaker
She did storytelling. She did the job and she did it really well yeah because like her character Tracy is, you know, going to fashion school at nights and is running around the city like her job and like yeah meeting with her.
00:08:22
Speaker
her tailor who I think might be her aunt like there's just all these different things happening she's creating this relationship with a photographer but she's like constantly on the move she's creating a relationship with this person who's running to be an alderman so that he can improve the city she's hustling she's she's hustling and she's not working her ass off yeah she's not waiting for opportunities and when she's at home she's constantly like designing and coming up with ideas so she's just boom boom always on the move yeah But what I love is that her her costume story is of this woman who is very aware of clothing on her body and how she wants to be represented. But she's not choosing to stand out like a flamingo amongst the pigeons, you know? Instead, she's dressed very well.
00:09:12
Speaker
And like all of the colors that are chosen, all of the patterns, all the accessories – are really, really gorgeous on her, but it's like they're not necessarily stand out like I'm going to wear vermilion in this scene when everybody's just on the street living life. Yeah. Like that happens later. So there is a progression in how she represents herself in her clothing as she's on her way up in the fashion world, but she doesn't start there. She starts representing herself, expressing herself differently And so that alone even showed how complicated the language of fashion and expression can be, where you can stand out without being the loudest person in the room.
00:09:55
Speaker
And then you can stand out by being the loudest person in the room by wearing a disco gi, you know? i like We work up. We work up. We all dream. but I think it's also like, an it's an interesting story In that you don't often see someone whose aspiration is to be a designer get pulled into the world of being a model, which is what happens in this movie. And so it was kind of unique in that way because usually people that are designers...
00:10:28
Speaker
are not focused on being in front of the camera. That's not what they want. I think that that's more of a modern thing yeah from the nineties onward, having the designer be more visible. i mean, we've always had visible designers like, I can't really call Bob Mackey's face to name, but it's like the name is definitely recognizable of a designer. And then sometimes the person is recognizable from social events, et cetera. But that's not necessarily always the goal. And like not everybody's going to know who the designer is unless you're part of that set. Right. And I think it's very unusual that like –
00:11:08
Speaker
That a designer would be wearing their own clothes once they've... Oh, yeah. You know, like... Yeah, like on a on a runway. Yeah. Wearing their own designs. Right. Like, I can understand it if you were really, really at the very beginning and you don't have a model. Mm-hmm. And you have to be your own model. And that's not necessarily, like, that's you know... And that that's... fine. It's definitely part of this story is, like, that's part of the hustle is, like... Yeah.
00:11:36
Speaker
it's this It also feeds into this other conversation that's had. So Billy Dee Williams plays this character. um let me look at my notes. Brian. Brian. Thank you. I have no memory after these past few months. But Brian, um who is...
00:11:53
Speaker
the young man who's working to better the city for other people who are being just run down by the government and by, let's just be frank here, racism, systemic racism. Literal, yeah, yeah. And like his, what I thought was very interesting in this, we're going to be all over the place, but that's our kind of thing. And so I'm not really like scared of it.
00:12:15
Speaker
So there's a conversation that happens in this movie yeah between Brian and Tracy's characters, which I think is such a real one. And I yeah really enjoyed its presence here, which is what is real impact and what is really important? Because these are two people who care very much about two very separate things. Yeah.
00:12:38
Speaker
And who have kind of a hard time um fully committing to the importance of both. and Or agreeing that both right are Yeah, that they have their place. and like that they Yeah, that they have their place. They're both people that don't want to put their work on the back burner for someone else.
00:13:03
Speaker
And so Brian's character is kind of expecting Tracy to get on side and like... Be the politician's girl. be the politician's girl. Set up the dinners. Show up for the dinners. Be beautiful. be Be there when I'm giving the speeches. Help me campaign. Do all this stuff. Design my posters. Yeah. And she's like, I have my own shit.
00:13:28
Speaker
And it's happening. And like, I don't feel like I need to be putting anything aside. I organize the dinners for you. You go. And I have my own things. She does a lot more for him than he does for her. yes We'll just say that. I feel like this is a very – the way the conversation is had is very dated because it is it is not super equal. Is it though? Yeah. So, you know, it' it's it's complicated. but like yeah
00:13:59
Speaker
What I appreciate is that at that moment in history, and I'm not saying that we're any better right now, but we are slightly in a different place where the conversation is not just about visibility now. The conversation is about more because visibility is the first step.
00:14:12
Speaker
But back then... a a big conversation is that it was about achieving visibility and access. It's usually restricted as fuck. Right. And so Tracy wanting to be in fashion, wanting to be a designer, she's being like kicked to the curb by all these dumb men. who are One is Bruce Valanche, which I laughed at. um Like all these like fashion men who own shops basically. And like,
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah. And they're like have the ability to make her designs. But go right. What the hell is a dolman sleeve? i was just like she was right to storm out of that room. I love the way she did that to this guy goes what's a dolman sleeve? And she says sorry I have to go to the actual quote.
00:14:55
Speaker
Please. Mr. What's your name? If you ever get into the fashion business, be sure to give me a call. Snatches that drawing right out of his hands and gets the hell out of there. She was like, I don't have time for you. Thank you. paper snatched out of his hand that loud. It was great. Oh, it was so good. She was like, i' sick of this. she like She's studying this. This is her world. She knows the terms. She is smart as hell and she is hustling as hard as possible. And she's not even being given the respect of somebody asking, what is this sleeve? What is it called? They're just trying to make her feel small and like telling her, you don't, you don't like work to get to Chicago. You end up in Chicago. Like all these different things. Which I was like, kind of fair. Yes. But it's like, It it was like, i think it was true, but I don't think that it was like said the right way. The right way was the right way would have been like dream bigger. Yes. But that was not the message that was being sent. So it was just like she is fighting against being treated differently.
00:15:54
Speaker
like an afterthought. A secretary. secretary. Because Bruce Fallon's character is like, and I can't do any of this shit for you, but I do need a secretary. And she's like, well, I'm a designer, sir, so goodbye. And it's like she is working something that is legitimate, which is being a presence in this world that does not want to see her yeah or people like her. And so if her becoming a fashion model in this story uh her they become they get to be in a relationship right and brian is like what you're doing is stupid like it's a waste of time i'm actually trying to keep roofs over people's houses and she's like first of all fuck you which is fair yes because like yes his fight is very important but there's not her her journey is not 1000 selfish Well, that's what I think. like I mean, it's it's so it is like a conversation that I think still happens about like, you know, yes this is frivolous. Like, this is it's just clothes or whatever. But in the context of this story in particular, his whole thing is trying to improve the lives of people in Chicago that are mostly Black. And and she's like...
00:17:10
Speaker
If that's what you want, why don't you want that for her? Yeah. That's what she's trying to do for herself. And they have a big fight that I think is pretty fair at a photo shoot where it's like a house that's dilapidated and Anthony Perkins. Yeah.
00:17:28
Speaker
Okay. Horror movie. i I didn't recognize him at first. And so it was a really... When he turned really showed all his colors later, I was like, this is delicious. hate this dream so much. I heard that music strike from Psycho the second I saw his gangly ass. And I was like, this man is here to destroy some stuff. That scene...
00:17:54
Speaker
Because I did not know like where this movie was going when I was watching it. Neither of us had seen this before, by the way. This was our first time watching this. No knowledge of the movie beforehand. But like when they had that photo shoot at that building, and...
00:18:08
Speaker
and um And it was like a high fashion and then like real people from like that neighborhood. I was like, this is interesting. And I kind of wish they had gone down that path because it was sort i thought it was going to take on this thing of of her being like, you know, we're saving this building from being demolished because we're using it in this like fashion thing. And we're like... elevating the people in this community by showing that like they're important and and glamorous and whatever but it like didn't didn't do any that. it went the opposite way because the conversation that was had in that scene was Brian going like, what are you doing?
00:18:48
Speaker
I, okay. I was like, yes, go ahead. I had to give him some snaps. Oh, I gave him all the snaps for this. but i met I loved when he pointed out, he asked her how much of those models being paid. And she said, $60 an hour, $70 an hour. And he said, and what about this old lady that you have in the shoot? Yeah. What about all of these regular people? And she said, that doesn't matter. And I was like,
00:19:14
Speaker
Okay. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, your character needs to grow because right now your character just wants to get out. You just
Tracy's Climax and Relationship Dynamics
00:19:25
Speaker
want to get out and you just want a different life, which is like, okay, fair. But right now you are taking advantage of other people on the way to doing that for yourself. And Brian is trying to convey that, but is doing it very poorly. Yeah. like Yes, he's very rude about it. He's very rude about it, which is like, you don't have to be better. But it's like, you know, in storytelling ways, it' she might not learn this lesson right now. But it was also interesting to watch the actors around him because they're just people in that scene listening to a couple fight. And they're also friends. Some of them are friends of his and hers. And so they're just like, whoop. Right.
00:20:05
Speaker
I'm not going to say it. And so it's just like, you know, there is this this conversation that happens between these two characters and and their journeys, which is like, what is and isn't important. And so I was like, I just really do want to call out that that especially at this time in the seventy s like...
00:20:25
Speaker
Yeah, it was a big deal to have a major campaign as a black model. Like, that's a big deal. And so is it crazy that this white photographer decided to call her mahogany? Yeah. Did I love that her character was like,
00:20:40
Speaker
I don't love it, but okay. She's like, don't love that you call me this. Yeah. like Yeah. ah That she was like, yes, I understand that we need to have like a, you know, there's diamond over here and I'm mahogany, whatever. But it's like, she recognized that it's a character.
00:20:58
Speaker
And then she was like, maybe you don't need to talk to me like I'm this character for the love of God. you know um Think about it. there were There were so many important nuances throughout this movie that unfortunately still apply today. but like I was really enjoying the presence of that conversation about, you know, what is important for your community and what's real. And it's like.
00:21:23
Speaker
Yes, the story of ah Tracy and Mahogany kind of descends into this like she like kind of spirals out of like. Yeah, it gets kind of dark. It gets dark and like it's just hollow for her being in Italy because she she goes to Rome and then creates like a space for herself there.
00:21:43
Speaker
But it just like really gets out of her control and she kind of like loses herself. And um I think that that's also valid. But it's like she did important work on the way there of being this beautiful face that people elevated and like – Rome of all places like you know in Europe to be this like standard of beauty and like carve out that space because somebody else is going to come knocking at a door and they can step in you know and like it can keep growing and growing and growing
00:22:18
Speaker
but I feel like a lot of lesser movies that explore this theme would have the protagonist get really like swept up in like the glamour and be kind of naive about what was going on. And that doesn't happen. Like she's constantly calculating, is this going to help me? Is this worth the price? Like she's doing that all throughout. She's very conscious of what is happening. And she's conscious of if I...
00:22:47
Speaker
go through this, i can get to here. And then she gets there and it doesn't give her what she's looking for. So like by the end of the movie, she is producing her own show, right? like And so this rich benefactor um has created a sewing studio for her and she... I'm not gonna lie has become a monster because the way she screamed at those women and I was like so they have a sewing studio on his property at his like villa whatever right and it's like so many machines and so many stitchers and they're all wearing like scientific like white coats the way that you do yeah in the fashion houses in Europe you're up yeah a curia and like
00:23:34
Speaker
It's crazy that she is just a monster to these people. And I wrote, oh my God, I was like, was just like, oh my God.
00:23:50
Speaker
And I was just like, listen, I don't... This is... So... oo Like, I don't even know the words for it. She's been through some ah a horrific stuff. ah You know, physically injured by... And I feel like we really move past this final these final like moments in this final chapter pretty quick. You know? yeah And it's like... it' I've got something to say about it. so
00:24:22
Speaker
i I've been going through like a really horrible time the past few months. Bad injury, I'm in recovery, all this. So for like four months, I have almost exclusively been watching Korean television. because I need the subtitles to distract my brain, right? Yeah. And so...
00:24:39
Speaker
I have this like running joke with my husband where I'm like the surprise serial killer. Because so many K-dramas will just be like, surprise, there's a plot with a serial killer. Wow. Silly, goofy, you know, rom-com. It's wild. And like one of them recently was surprise dissociative identity disorder. And it's what? We're on episode eight of 12 episode series. What you mean? And it was wonderfully executed, but it's like, what?
00:25:07
Speaker
like And so that's how I felt. a Final chapter of this movie. Yes. When Anthony Perkins, free like really does. Oh, he turned. Anthony Perkins the hell out of this movie. Because he, the whole time he, he's falling into our, um we, I feel like you and I now have this like room full of icky photographers. Yeah. Oh my God. Just light that room on fire. he's the worst yeah because he we watch his character truly devolve. Like he has offered Tracy this opportunity to to lose her job as secretary. Yeah. But like make a relationship with him and get some photos done. He takes those photos to Rome for a campaign. Somebody at a fashion house there or not a fashion house, but like an agency. An agency loves what was done. And so he's like he invites her to come to Rome and she's like, boom, I'm there.
00:26:07
Speaker
And then he says to her, sorry, slide aside. She gets to Rome and she gets to his house. She presses the bell and he opens the door and just looks at her. i wrote, if someone opened a door when I arrived and said, you took me seriously.
00:26:24
Speaker
Oh my God. That's beautiful. I would leave. I'd be like, I'm already on the plane. i Goodbye. i was never here. like but like the idea, I mean, i don't know.
00:26:37
Speaker
i wasn't alive in the 70s. Not too far. ah You know, there's no smartphones. Like she she's she's talking to this man on a landline telephone and then decides to get on a plane and fly to Rome. You need to be Yeah. That there's a place for you to go She's like, I'm on it. And the thing is that like he's ready to to to fight for her. he and this guy at the agency are like Giuseppe, which we'll talk about him in a second. But like he's like, okay, it's going to be a little bit of hard road because we have to convince them. Basically, like you're going to be their first black guy.
00:27:11
Speaker
model and so like which i'm like if they saw the photos and liked them why well it was one guy was one guy who saw it and liked it and was like we have to have this this model yeah and so they were gonna pick up the the fight and like you know let's get you this job which she won for herself agency people She won for herself. Yes. That was like a girl power moment because it turned out that the only woman in the room. And it was her agency. And she was like, well, it's funny because I run this place, so you're hired. But I was like, madam, fire all of these assholes that work here. Why are these men in this room if you're here? Like...
00:27:50
Speaker
Why are these the men that you have hired to work at this agency? Because it's the 70s. Yeah, I know. That's why. Also, all of these Italians are the most New York I've ever heard in my life, except for Giuseppe. So the Anthony Perkins of it all. So he gets her to Rome and he basically provides opportunities. He provides a couple opportunities. But what we find out about his character is that, of course, he's not going to just provide opportunities. He's going to feel ownership. Right.
00:28:19
Speaker
of her yeah and does and it's pretty shitty yeah it's horrible it's pretty shitty and there were quite a few scenes where i was just like toss the laptop i didn't but in my mind i tossed the laptop well acted gross as hell yeah i mean he did a great job making me absolutely hate him oh and like the final arc of his character is he literally tries to kill her and himself and he only succeeds in killing himself and like there's a party where brian is like
00:28:50
Speaker
okay, I want to kind of make this work. So he flies to Rome to be with Tracy and to kind of see into her life there for a little bit. And she's like, okay, well, let me show you all the sights. So she like goes and buys him this suit that's more expensive than he would ever pay for. And they go eat out and she's like speaking in the Italian that she has. And she's like, I'm terrible this. But she's like, just act like you've been here forever and that it'll be fine.
00:29:16
Speaker
And then, you know, takes him to a party. And at the party, he's like, this is not my scene. Yeah, it's a very like Studio 54 kind of vibe. Yeah, it's like an industry thing. And he's like...
00:29:29
Speaker
i'm I'm down to be here. And he's wearing like a great suit that's like this amazing green and brown combo. It's gorgeous. And he's like, it's weird, but I'm here. and then Anthony Perkins is like jealous as hell and takes him into his weird. His murder room. Murder room because he was a ah ah war photographer.
00:29:50
Speaker
And so he's like, hey, whenever anything gets bad, I come in here to calm down and everything makes sense. And it's all these giant blown up photos of we know Vietnam. I was going to say it's Vietnam, right? It's Vietnam because it's 1975. There's also an entire wall of gun guns. Just guns everywhere. Just mounted on the wall. And he pulls a gun out of his desk and doesn't show Brian and then just sticks that shit in his face. And they get into a real fight because bri he's pretending that he's going to shoot Brian in the face. Yes. And talking about how the aperture of a camera is the same as you as a gun. and a done Perfect honesty. in it own love I was like, Brian's like, out I'll kill you and actually pulls the trigger and the gun is empty. And he's like, I don't know what this is. And he's like, I have to leave that moment where he's where Anthony Perkins starts like cackling. oh my God. I was just like,
00:30:41
Speaker
Brian is a better person than me because yeah I would have started beating him with that empty gun. don't know why more hands weren't flying. Like, Brian is like, I got to get out of here. I don't know the legal rules of Italy, but I got to go. And it's like, And also, like, if that gun had been loaded, then Anthony Perkins would have been dead. would have been...
00:31:01
Speaker
dead how How does he feel like he won that interaction when he would have died that gun had been loaded? it's just like he is... I mean, he's crazy. he's this is This is where we're like, yeah, he's for real taking a departure from reality. And like I don't know where it is because I can't... Why would I be able to read my notes in real time? But like yeah there's there's I think it's just under the hour mark of the movie.
00:31:27
Speaker
is when it switches to a horror movie for me because that's the first time that his character pushes sexual stuff onto Tracy. And it's like, that scene was an absolute bummer. Like it was like, all you could feel like it's one of those things where it's like, you know, you, you know, that that turn is probably coming in the story, but it doesn't make it any less terrible to watch and so it goes it just escalates from there to this party and then after that um well first he like is it before the party that he tries to like humiliate tracy on a runway i mean he just he i think it's after yeah but it's like there's a series of him trying to humiliate her in front of other people to like yeah Humble her basically. Yeah, humble her. yeah And there's this photo shoot where she shows up and is absolutely stunning. And don't worry, we're rambling now about the plot. Rambling. We're talking about the plot. We are going to go backward and fill in some costumes because I have costume notes that I want to talk about. yeah But this specifically, this photo shoot
00:32:42
Speaker
is where they really divide where she's like, I'm so sick of you because she has this gorgeous hairstyle and this gorgeous dress and it has this like beaded collar like yeah big kind of egyptian maybe inspired yeah it is so stunning and she looks so gorgeous yeah but he anthony perkins the photographer sean
00:33:14
Speaker
so was Sean McAvoy? Yeah. Something very Irish or Scottish. irish But he feels so small and like he's losing he knows that he's losing her. Because she's a superstar and he's a creep. That's and that's it. And he can't control her. And the fact that she's like, oh, before – okay, I'm going to say this and then I'm going to go backward again. But like this is like the big we've crossed – Aline and I'm sick of your shit. He reaches onto that and it was like a tear away. It was made purposefully for this. separate But but but that he pulls it off of her, rips it off. yeah And it's like...
00:33:55
Speaker
Because she says, want the exposure. This is my design. I want to wear design. I want it to be photographed. And like, should be wearing what I decided you should wear. And she's like, no, I'm going to wear my design. And he's like, oh, you want the exposure? Reaches, grabs it, pulls that shit off. And she's like, I'm out. And I was just like, first of all, good for you, Tracy. Also, second of all, Tracy, your work is incredible.
00:34:19
Speaker
why didn't Why don't we see more of this? Because we're going to talk about her final fashion show. ok And we're going to reserve that in a moment. So let's a pin in that. Because i want to go backwards for a second to a different photo shoot where he – it's another moment where this person shows how he wants to humble her. Because they're taking these like photos that are kind of like candid. It's just the two of them. It's not like a full crew.
00:34:43
Speaker
And she's wearing this like electric fuchsia like number with this giant giant like tool muff. Oh, it's incredible. It's the most amazing thing I've ever seen. loved it. And they're taking pictures of her like stopping traffic. She's just like throwing herself dramatically on the hoods of cars. The driver's like, what are you doing? And then they're heading towards a fountain. So they're just crossing the street, but they're like stopping traffic on the way. And he's like, I want you to look sad or something like that. Like, I want you to look less like you enjoy this. And she's like, why would I? I love this. I never want to give this up. And he's like...
00:35:25
Speaker
Well, I'll figure out a way basically and puts his hand in the middle of her chest and pushes her into the fountain and then takes a series of photos. And one of those photos of her coming up from the water is the photo for a makeup campaign. And I was like, first of all, you pushed this black woman into this water and her hair was done.
00:35:44
Speaker
Fuck you. Yeah. Yeah. Second of all. Jail. Yeah. You pushed this woman into this water and she's wearing A couture gown. And all of this. And she's got like gorgeous makeup. And the reason why I guess it gets chosen for the makeup campaign is that it's showing that the makeup stays. But like...
00:36:05
Speaker
She didn't choose that? Yeah. If that was like, we're going to do this campaign where you're going to be in the fountain and we're going to show that the makeup stays, that's fine. But the picture is her upset. That's called consent. That's called everyone's on the same page we're Because what happened is called assault. Yeah. And I was like, oh my God. And then it it escalates to the end of the movie where he's trying to take pictures. He has this obsession with taking pictures of her, right? Like it becomes obsession. Yes. And he's, they're driving in this little sports car and she's they're not even supposed to he's not even supposed to be like, she's supposed to be like stopped on the road in the car and he's taking pictures. He gets into the car. yeah
00:36:50
Speaker
And like puts it in drive without her like permission. And then he's just taking pictures of her and she's like, the car is moving. And he's like, yeah, whatever. then it just keeps – he keeps pressing on the gas, keeps pressing on the gas. And then she's fighting for the steering wheel and he's just taking
Cultural Influences and Fashion Critique
00:37:07
Speaker
pictures of her, taking pictures of her. And then he drives them off the fucking road and has a series of pictures where they are flying through the air before the impact and he's taking pictures of her face. yeah And then we find out, boom, black screen come up. She's in her her new benefactor's house because he took her out of the hospital and was like, you can recuperate here. She's got bandages all over the place. And Carlotta Gavina, who's the person who runs that ad agency, is like – showing her these blown up pictures like insane yeah of her terrified face thinking she's about to die and then we just get a throwaway comment that he's dead which i was like better at him than you and i was like about as much like that is what he deserves that little like regard but i was like but here we are look at that kdrama serial killer surprise boom i was like oh my god
00:38:02
Speaker
yeah What are we doing? And then we did we didn't spend a lot of time there um because like then we're on to the benefactor buying all these sewing machines and creating a sewing studio for her to make her final collection. And that is what we are about to talk about right now. With the full – like it's very explicit contract, verbal contract between the two of them that he – Wants certain things from her in exchange for financing all of this. And want I hate that too.
00:38:30
Speaker
Yep. I hate it so much. And we explore that fully. And it's a real fucking bummer because it's like she's she's. It's the hustle.
00:38:41
Speaker
And she's like, I'm going to get to where I want to go. and you're like, I want good things for you, Tracy. I know. It's like the Faustian bargain kind of thing. Yeah. Like that this whole movie is just like one Faustian bargain after another for this poor woman. And it just hard to watch. and But the collection. So the collection. Wow. The collection. This is the nineteen seventy s Yes, it is. This is the era of blaxploitation kung fu and appropriation and appreciation and the blurred lines between the twain of Asian cultures that...
00:39:21
Speaker
It was very big since like Chinoiserie onward. And so this, the first sight that we have of Tracy's appreciation for Asian cult, Asian style, shall we say? Asian, traditional Asian. Asian inilhouue winds of influence. Influence. It's actually pretty early in the movie because there's this like hot...
00:39:47
Speaker
Well, the opening scene of the movie is this shoot and then we go backward. But then there's... so We know it's coming. We know it's coming. But then there's the fashion benefit that you mentioned earlier where the guy tries to humiliate Tracy in front of everyone. Even earlier than that, there's when she's still in Chicago. She's in the unemployment office and she's wearing this like hot pink number that is fantastic. And it's like the first time that she's now starting to wear clothes that are like, I am standing out from the crowd. loud and proud because it's like maybe not hot pink but it's in that realm and it has these giant sleeves that are not kimono-esque but kind of in that world. Voluminous. Voluminous. And have this like
00:40:35
Speaker
ah kind of like quilted not quilted my words are so bad corded maybe ah like double corded like detail at the hem of the sleeve yeah that like weights it down but also gives it like this presence and so that's that's a silhouette that we see and that's like kind of the first time that she's wearing this and it's like oh no it's actually the second because the first the first first I'm going backwards she is drawing this um when she's leaving fashion school and she's heading home on the train she's drawing she's working on this thing that her fashion teacher tries to like shit on her for i just asked for a basic cocktail dress and i was like first of all i was like be be more boring knock it off like because it's like this is actually a great design i love it so this this dress that she's drawing
00:41:30
Speaker
On the page looks kind of like a pencil, like it's a very slim fit yellow rectangle on this very, you know, exaggerated fashion form. And it has like this pleated fabric that's like a a cape on the top part of the dress. And the base is yellow.
00:41:49
Speaker
And then she's looking at these kids doing some graffiti inside one of the stops. And she's like inspired by the colors. So now it's got panels of different colors. She gets – Her aunt. i think it's her aunt. Yeah. It's her aunt to who works at a factory. garment worker. Yeah, it's a garment worker. And oh my god, the this the working environment. Oh, just like ourma the mountains. ah But that mountains that rainbow dress with the yellow base, I think might be my favorite thing from the movie.
00:42:24
Speaker
love this dress. And it is it is for me, that is the first, aside from that big fashion show, it's the first sign of her influence her Asian silhouette influence because it's the base of the dress is Changsam, which is what um or It's like been, any what's how to phrase it?
00:42:48
Speaker
People have turned this garment into a stereotype, m but it is not a stereotype. It is actually a gorgeous dress that um I love how they look um when you actually look at like well-made ones. But now people sell them to be like bodycon and very, very, very short yeah with like high slits. But it's it's like it's actually iconic when you go past the stereotyping of It's an iconic Chinese dress. With a high collar, slits, and an asymmetric fastening over the front.
00:43:23
Speaker
But this version... I definitely had a fake one when I was like in high school. My great aunt passed away when I was a teenager. And all of her 70s clothing came to my grandmother. And my grandmother didn't want any of it. So she said I could go through it.
00:43:39
Speaker
And I... there was a version of this in there that had like crazy seventies colors. It's like, this is crazy. And she had some jackets that like went with it and stuff. And I think I still have one in the garage, but I was like, like mine was like deep Navy blue and like silver. it was, it's, it's a gorgeous dress and the stereotyping of it sucks, but like the actual Chang Sam that is the iconic thing.
00:44:09
Speaker
version is just gorgeous and like I feel like this takes a lot from that except that I don't think that the buttons I don't think there's an asymmetric closure on the front I think it's you see buttons on the side not one that yeah you can't see anything because it's got that big like rainbow chiffon over the top so like you don't see anything except the rainbow yeah and so like over this is the pleated chiffon rainbow and it is so great because we get to see it in motion like it's wonderful on her static but anthony perkins serial killer himself uh gives her the directive to spin spin spin and she does and first of all it's diana ross so i mean of course yeah but then like in motion it is so gorgeous and this is the first time in this movie where i'm like why don't we wear capes anymore
00:45:03
Speaker
what's i know them i know what's our problem like all of these wispy capes what's our deal we need to have more of these everything is if you go to the mall everything's beige and i'm so sad it's so beige and everything's so like a square with a hole in it for your head and i'm like this is so sad and so it's like this is just like this this dress is like representing her joy like this is her joy That's why i like it so much because it's like it's not the the highest heights that she will get to fashion wise. But it's so fun and so beautiful and playful and just.
00:45:41
Speaker
And like I called it like the bird of paradise dress like in my notes because I was like this is just this is a moment for her. And um like We get – so I'm skipping so many things that I do want to get to after we talk about the highest heights for her, which is her big fashion show of her collection. Yeah. I had a lot of feelings about that. Oh, no. Let's get into it because we're going to have to have time to talk about it. And then I want to go back and talk about different things throughout the movie because I i noted a bunch of outfits throughout the movie that I thought were wonderful. um So this fucking – this fucking thing – That we started the movie with and we come back to. yeah It's very jarring at the beginning of the movie because you don't have context of like, what is this?
00:46:31
Speaker
But I mean, i ah ok Look, I don't. like Project Runway. i will be very real about that.
00:46:43
Speaker
I'm in the same boat. And I don't know about you, but I've definitely had people be like, you should sign up. And I say thank you so much for thinking of that of me. That's so sweet. It really is super sweet. And I appreciate that you think that of me. I'm not interested in that. never going to sign up for Project Runway. No, not interested in that world. Not for me. not for me. But there's a common...
00:47:03
Speaker
critique that certain designers receive on that show and I can only speak for early seasons of the show because I have not watched it in many many many years but um the common critique for certain designers on that show was that it looks too costumey and that was bad for those fashion people and what they were interested in for their TV show And I usually disagree with that because i love costumes. So nothing is too costumey for me. or These clothes were very costumey. These clothes are very costumey. And these clothes really...
00:47:41
Speaker
Because there's so much to talk about, right? Like in in our last, not our last one, in the one before that, Funny Face, when we talked about Funny Face, ah we talked for a minute about Audrey Hepburn as the sole model The fashion show at the end of that movie, which I'm currently never going to get over. That's insane. How long is that event? Hours. sick Oh, my God. Hours. I hope there's a lot of champagne in a pair of teeth because, like, what the heck? So in that...
00:48:16
Speaker
She does a walk that is pretty bonkers to me because because I'm so used to the supermodels of today and the stomp, stomp, like predatory stomp. Yeah.
00:48:29
Speaker
That, you know, we have models who are just so tall now, so tall and like just have so much space. So So angry and fair. take Here's a nap. Have one. be in the sun. um But like...
00:48:45
Speaker
Her walk was so bananas. And I just, I'm always going to remember that because it was like this kind of like a scurry. And I was like, girl, this is amazing. she she's has to move because she's got to go change. She's got to hustle. But I was like, this is crazy.
00:49:02
Speaker
Oh my goodness. But these models clearly have been given instructions to move according to what their...
00:49:14
Speaker
costumes their pieces look like. And so there's kind of some... This is not... I feel like this crosses a weird appropriation, appreciation line for me. Yes. Because it's... It made me feel uncomfortable. It made me feel very uncomfortable because I can see that like, yes, this is big in the 70s, Asian stuff, right?
00:49:37
Speaker
Asian silhouettes, Asian inspired things. But the way that the models are moving is like... stereotype after stereotype after stereotype of what they think geisha move like what they think Chinese dancers move like and just like kind of the conflation of cultures like all of this that's happening is like oof this I don't love and these yeah are so costumey because they seem as if they should be for like a Star Wars There's some stuff. I'm looking very particularly right now at a picture of the purple and gold. Forgot I could look at the pictures. from number There's not a lot. There's like there's there's not.
00:50:22
Speaker
I wish there were more, but there there are certain things that it's like. Designers before this movie took those things and put them into their science fiction design. Right. So we know that they are literally Star Wars, which is why I pointed to Star Wars. yeah Although this movie is pre-Star Wars. So maybe Star Wars is like mahogany. There we go. We got Billy Dee Williams in both. um But.
00:50:51
Speaker
there Yeah, it it went to a place yeah that I felt like was beyond fashion. And it was very strange because yeah everything up until that point in the movie wasn't like that. Because like the biggest that we got before this was the fashion show that she walks where she's wearing her own dress. And
1970s Fashion Context and Modern Comparisons
00:51:12
Speaker
it's kind of like this orange silk, I want to say, that has this giant embroidered probably maybe beaded as well dragon up the front and that also pulls from a lot of Asian cuts yes and like there's very much the imagery it's very much like okay so we understand that her character has an appreciation for eastern Asian um traditional clothing and what what she wants to do with that to kind of make it more more dramatic bigger
00:51:48
Speaker
And that one was like, okay, we're getting big. We're getting big. Right. but then we turned the dial up to 11 for this. turned it up to 11 with exclamation points. And I was like, now this is crazy. And why this is crazy is all of the instinctual things that we're feeling, all of the intellectual things that we can say about it. But it's also the fact that she herself, Tracy, is wearing this dress that I think is stunning Yes. And it does have these sleeves that are kimono sleeves.
00:52:24
Speaker
These rectangular sleeves. It is a more integrated version. It subtler. Yeah. and it is But the thing is that it is gorgeous. Oh, it's beautiful. looks stunning on her. And I was like, why couldn't we have this? Because these don't feel. no crazy But also old part part of it was the the makeup, the wig, hairstyling on the models was like too much. All of it is very camp.
00:52:55
Speaker
So like the the makeup, I was like, the are these dolls on this stage? Because this feels very... very very camp in like a way that I would love somewhere else like the makeup the makeup and hair right but the the costumes I'm like oh yeah it it felt like it felt very much like we saw these things and we thought they were beautiful and we're just kind of like plucking them out and
00:53:27
Speaker
not necessarily appreciating or including context and we're just kind of like plucking them out and then like putting them back together in a different way without necessarily like a deep understanding of what they are yeah and and like it was a strange culmination of this movie yeah it was just that like you said it it's what people did later which is taking asian and indigenous things and then making them in space because how could they exist on earth kind of thing. Or it's like, it unfortunately for a lot of ah like Western, you know, like European and American people, it becomes like a shorthand of otherness. Exactly. said so much better as you usually do because that's exactly what it is.
00:54:19
Speaker
And so it's like, it doesn't even matter what they're, it Well, it does matter. But like, it could be anything that they're pulling from. Their goal is to show otherness. And they're doing that. And it's a real bummer. And so for it to be present here was like, what? Because it's like, I get that we're trying to be.
00:54:41
Speaker
blow people's mind and the people's response to this, by the way, the audience is they've never seen anything crying, screaming, throwing up. never I was going to say they're literally screaming, crying, throwing up. Like people are jumping off a balcony. It's not really. And like why this doesn't make any sense to me is because of what she is wearing.
00:55:00
Speaker
And yeah sometimes designers will wear, you know, when they come out for their applause and everything, something that is a little bit more understated than their collection, obviously, but it will be connected somehow. Yes.
00:55:11
Speaker
And so this is following that trend. But it's like what she is wearing is so gorgeous and is so following in that theme that we have seen from her character of this appreciation for these silhouettes that it's like if she had had a collection like this, then it would be treated like couture fashion, right? But instead because it's so almost cartoonish – I think that that's what feels insane to me is that these things are so big.
00:55:46
Speaker
Yeah, they become fantasy. Yeah, they are a close fantasy instead of clothing. And like, you know, this is a conversation that people have all the time about high fashion, right? Is that like, and you understand it if you're in that world, you don't if you don't. Like, I'm a person who chooses not to understand very often. Yeah. Because I prefer different things unless I'm talking about it as costume and then I can look at it that way without other feeling. But it's like with this, it's just like we could have gone a different direction and had it be in a way that feels per chance a little bit more respectful. well even I think it's it was really a disconnect for me because
00:56:35
Speaker
I don't understand what that stuff has to do with Tracy. Yeah. And like as her character, sure, we understand that she's kind of like at the end of her rope and she's getting more and more unhappy. But it's like.
00:56:49
Speaker
But for it to be treated as this triumphant, brilliant, genius was like, for this? This is what we pushed for? Girl, no. Like, And it's like you could take all of the techniques and like the beading and like the silhouette. You could take all of the components. Yes. And like do something else with those. could something Those techniques. A little bit more elevated than what she was wearing. And it would be stunning. Or just have like a connection to her. yeah As a person and her experience of life. and Because this felt like, oh, so she's a costume designer now.
00:57:23
Speaker
Why didn't you say so? Right. Right. Okay. but like But it was just yeah so divorced from the reality that we've been building for this character yeah because like, and I don't know why. i i don't know why. And maybe somewhere it says, maybe somewhere there's an interview where Diana Ross talks about these designs. Maybe, i don't know.
00:57:45
Speaker
But it's like, yeah we get to this, is it after that show that she's wearing the disco gi? Yeah. I think it was at the party where Anthony Perkins tries to kill Billy Dee Williams. Yeah. So that's, is that after this? No, no, This is at the end. So this is before. So before this, we get the disco gi and I was like, we are in.
00:58:05
Speaker
i did like that. That felt more grounded. That felt super 70s in yeah the the most insane way. Like there just needs to be a necklace that has a little mirror that's like a Coke necklace. You know, that's it. But it's like truly when I say disco gi, it's,
00:58:22
Speaker
This outfit is like – There's no other way to describe it. You saw somebody going to karate you went, I like what's going on over there with the gi and the obi. And now I want that but with sequins. I'm going to take that garment and I'm just going to hand it to this person to sew sequins onto it. Just one for one exchange. And I was like, this is incredible.
00:58:45
Speaker
Like Ben Kenobi wishes. and like maybe is that where the Bob Mackie comes in? i don't understand. I don't know where Bob Mackie's in and where he's out. But like I was like this is so 70s and this is also i can do this.
00:58:58
Speaker
Okay. I can do this. It's like 1975 is such like turning point in fashion. And of course, the people in 1975 don't have the hindsight to like, they're just living it. But it's like, we are in the throes of a transition into disco. Yes. And Maggie started disco. It did. But it's like,
00:59:24
Speaker
If she had just presented like the most glamorous like disco looks ever, it would have been so cutting edge in 1975. Like we don't need this other like specific cultural reference yeah that is not part of her. It just felt like a very strange choice. And I wish that I had more information.
00:59:49
Speaker
And like I didn't I didn't enjoy that had fashion yeah ending at all because I felt like it failed the character and I was like as a modern viewer yikes I know and it's so hard I feel like the everything is culminating to the one great dress moment in costumes is like a real trap that is a minefield and this feels like oh we fell onto the spikes like We missed the hole in the ground. The leaves covered it up too well. Not to bring it back to Emma Watson, but like and yeah like
01:00:26
Speaker
any story where the build is to the one dress that's going to change everything. It's too much. Oh my God. Too it's too much pressure. Too much pressure. And Melinda, we have to watch that frigging movie. Even if it's just for you and me. i need to watch you watch that movie. Yeah.
01:00:45
Speaker
Because I need to experience you experiencing it. I don't know. I'm not ready. No. And, like, the thing is, whats what's great is that, like, all the rest of the costumes, worth it.
01:00:57
Speaker
They're all gorgeous. Well, that's not surprising. No. Because there was a costume designer who was hired to design that freaking movie. So the other costumes look amazing. You don't say stumble into being a costume designer at Disney. Like, that is No.
01:01:11
Speaker
Oh, my goodness. Okay. And... just Yeah, but but yeah, everything else in this movie is like so cool and so beautiful and like so successful. And it was really weird to culminate on that.
01:01:29
Speaker
a crazy departure. Yeah, especially when you have her in the dress that she's wearing and going like, okay, we could have done this better, but we didn't. Yeah. because And it still would have been cutting edge and it still would have been couture and it still would have been high fashion. 100%. It just would have been... But I don't know. Maybe they felt like... they are maybe it Maybe... I mean, I don't want to say they. Diana Ross is the designer. Maybe she felt like...
01:01:55
Speaker
it needed to go even further to be this like transcendent moment. That's the thing is I don't know if she was designing those pieces. Right. Or if she, um if that's where like the Bob Mackie of it all came in, because there were a few other designers and I'm going to say this right now. Did I do deep research? Absolutely not. I typed it into Google and AI said something and I said, I'm not going to pay attention to this, but the Bob Mackie of it all stuck. So I don't know who the other designers were or what other wardrobe folks stepped in. But
Significance and Legacy of 'Mahogany'
01:02:27
Speaker
other people had to be responsible for other looks because there's just no way that Diana Ross was going to design an entire film, like as well as star in it. That's so much work for one person. And um especially somebody whose field isn't doing that all the time and having a team, you know, that you are comfortable with. You're building all of it at once, the the relationships, all of it. So that was the thing. I don't know if we mentioned this, but in the little Instagram video that's edited together with the two interviews, the second interview, which feels like it's after production, she's like,
01:03:03
Speaker
I'm good. Yeah. Like it's really hard. It was so I'm so glad I did it. But I'm going to stick with singing. I'm going to stick with performing. i enjoy that part more. And it was just like she just like gave credit she wasn't like this was the worst experience of my life. She was like, that's way more work than I think I want to put on my plate with these other things that I also really love and enjoy. Yeah.
01:03:25
Speaker
And so I was like, yes, yes. Thank you. that's It in It's work. It's two completely consuming full-time like professions to go into. It's not like you can't do either one casually. And so the idea of doing both is crazy. Oh, yeah. And you can tell that she was not doing this casually. She was doing it well. And so that means the work was consuming. doubly. And so it's like, oh, yeah, yeah let's, yeah, let's Diana Ross rest.
01:03:58
Speaker
Like, save, save your voice. Like, honestly. Okay. So to go backwards during ah this movie and talk about some of the more regular looks, if you will. Yeah.
01:04:13
Speaker
I just want to highlight again that this is such a successful example of a performer understanding clothing on their own body and um not solely focusing on making themselves be the special snowflake loudly in every moment because there were – And what do i what do I mean by that? So there's an example. When she's working at the department store as a secretary, she's got this monochromatic look that's all red. It's different.
01:04:44
Speaker
ah And it just looks so gorgeous on her. So that means she knows which shade of red is going to be really gorgeous on her, but isn't going to speak of like an evening look. It's not going to speak of like I'm – like neon red need to stand out. It's no, this is a hotlight gorgeous outfit and I'm going to look good in it because I care about how I'm dressing myself.
01:05:11
Speaker
Um, she has a knit green dress with like a little capelet ah that's a part of the dress in the accidental modeling moment where she first meets the photographer. That is a gorgeous shade of green on her. um,
01:05:25
Speaker
I just like, it just really shows the eye that she has. And there's like a lot of just regular day wear for her where she has like a trench coat on top of an outfit scarf that like stands out against a trench coat. And it's a plaid that are like,
01:05:43
Speaker
more muted colors but are gorgeous like like her earring choices the accessories that she goes with there's a look that she has like a little hat that's so cute like she's always got a little hat moment she's always got like everything is so Her hair is always incredible. Like yeah there's a scene when she gets fired where she's wearing this little like lavender jacket with a white blouse with like long collar ties and an autumnal orange skirt. And I was like, I love this outfit. I love it. yeah And like there's I wrote many times collars, like collars and capes. Oh, my God. But um but even like the men like Billy Dee Williams. I mean, is there a man in this decade that could wear a leather jacket better? No. Listen, this man, handsome as hell, handsome as hell, wearing the life out of turtleneck after turtleneck after turtleneck. And these are high neck turtlenecks. Chunky. Chunky knit and like there's a jacket over. shirling collar. It's turned up. Okay. It is so good. Like everybody, extras included,
01:06:55
Speaker
How do i want to say this? It feels so real. It doesn't feel like people wearing clothing that is inappropriate for the moment. It feels like things that people are actually wearing. Like at an unemployment office, there's somebody wearing this like polyester, crazy color, like lavender shirt that has a bunch of like patterns on it. And I'm like, yes, this is something that somebody would wear. It's, you know, we're not trying to...
01:07:20
Speaker
dress people up past what they would be wearing out. It's more like this is reflective of how people were dressing well at the time. And um people just look so great. They look good.
01:07:33
Speaker
and like i was really shocked. I'm looking at a picture of it right now, but there's a scene, I'm like just skipping all over the fucking place, my bad, where Anthony Perkins is wearing a camo jacket. And I was like, this are you from...
01:07:47
Speaker
the 90s? Like, what is that? I also noted that and I said, I didn't know that there was casual camo in the 70s. Me neither. It's a sweatshirt because it has the hood. It's a hoodie.
01:08:00
Speaker
It's like a zip-up hoodie. insane. And I was like, I have never felt more watching a movie like So you're a time traveler. Yeah. I'm sorry. Are you from Brooklyn? Like in the 90s? What is going on? Are you at a coffee shop right now? Like where's your stupid – I don't even bondage like hat from the 2000s. Yeah. But it's like there's just – that was so modern.
01:08:28
Speaker
That I was like, i'm I'm genuinely not used to seeing casual camo in anything pre-90s. No, it was bizarre. It would always be from like an old uniform. Yeah, I only think of it in this era in association with actual Vietnam vets that have come back to like after combat and are like wearing their like uniform out of like protest. Yeah. Like that's the only association I have with camo being worn. I have another association, which is I can't think of the word, but um on hate, there used to be a store like this. Surplus. Surplus. Army surplus. Yeah. And like I had a pair of pants that were camo in the 2000s and I cut them into shorts. So it's like –
01:09:16
Speaker
army surplus is what I would be thinking. But it's like, this isn't an army thing. This is a casual, it looks like he should hop on a friggin' skateboard, put a joint in his mouth and just slowly sail away down a sidewalk. Yeah, like, this man is a very successful high fashion photographer. It was so jarring. And I was like, this is so strange to see Anthony Perkins in something that I could see somebody wearing outside today. is... It was so weird. It was the most like tiny moment, but it was just like, like it was so disconcerting. It really got me. Yeah.
01:09:52
Speaker
And so I want to give some shout outs to like the hair and the makeup in this. Oh my God. Especially yeah Diana Ross the whole way through. The eyelashes. The eyelashes should each individually have a credit in this film because I don't know what strange a magic was happening there, but oh my God, her eyelashes. Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:13
Speaker
stunning i mean I mean, it's Diana Ross. like what yeah I don't think we even need to – you all know. Anyone listening to this ever, you know. We don't need to say it. It's Diana Ross. Gorgeous. And like, I mean, cape after cape after cape. There's a scene when she gets to the Gavina agency where she's wearing this – Again, another monochrome look. It's all cream, the hat, cape, a blouse that has this incredible keyhole neckline.
01:10:41
Speaker
i mean, just yeah gorgeous every second. and In that scene, people are trying to say that she's not like gorgeous enough. And I'm like, you need to get out. It looks like there's a window over there. Take that as your exit. What are you talking about? Like, we don't need any more proof that these people don't know what they're talking about. No.
01:10:58
Speaker
and um Like, oh, there's another scene, another moment that I want to give a shout out to, which is after the infamous party where Sean tries to fake kill Brian and Brian's like, I'm out. I got to go. Tracy stays at the party and it takes her a while to get back home. And it seems like she's...
01:11:16
Speaker
really just like on one on one because she's like well fuck everything and so she comes back and brian's on the couch with his head in his hands waiting for a cab in the background there's a dress form that has paper on it that is cut for the designs and that's a way to save so you're not just using fabric But it was so cool to see that detail that she's designing using essentially like butcher paper, but it's not like k craft paper brown. It's a different color.
01:11:46
Speaker
But that was so cool. yeah More of this because like in different scenes with her apartments, we've seen her renderings and her sketches and like her ideas in progress. Like she's very clearly always working, always thinking. But to see it 3D like that yeah being worked out in paper was pretty cool. Because like if you're – Fabric swatches like stapled on. It was just like, yes, this is what we do. Yes. And like if you don't work with fabric or costumes or clothing or anything, why this is so exciting to me is that this is how I was taught millinery.
01:12:19
Speaker
With paper, you take butcher paper or craft paper and you cut your shapes and you tape them together to model out what you want a hat to look like and then you – That's like your sketch. So it's like you sketch, you do it in paper, and then you do it in the fabrics, in the buckroom, et cetera, et cetera. And so I was like, this is just fun. Because like, how fun would that be to just like make half of a design to like figure out how it works in big paper and not worry about all the things that you're wasting, in the scraps. Absolutely.
01:12:52
Speaker
Wow. What a time. What a time. yeah did it. So like what a, what a great ride. And this really is, I think that there's, um I saw a couple comments about this being like one
Transition to 'Troop Beverly Hills'
01:13:06
Speaker
of the best fashion movies. I do agree that this is a very fun movie. This is a great movie to see kind of through the eyes of a character who's trying to rise in the fashion world and see just like so many examples of seventies fashion.
01:13:22
Speaker
I mean, it can't be beat for that. Like, it cannot. i mean, aside from the, you know, final show, which we discussed at length, but it everything else in the movie leading up to that point, I mean, it's just, like, incredible look after incredible look after incredible look. It's worth it for that. It's kind of a stone-cold bummer in other ways. So, like, oh warned if you're going to watch it Rough. And, like, without any warning going in hot dog. yeah But, like, truly...
01:13:53
Speaker
Amazing work, Diana Ross. yeah like No notes. i I was so excited to see that she was like, i'm going to take this as my opportunity to do this thing that I've dreamt of doing. yeah And she did it with her whole heart. like You can tell. it it's the kind of designs. In another world, I went in on the nitty gritty of all the different details of her character. But I do think it's worth watching so that you can see with your own eyes how much thought she put into each character to make her feel real.
01:14:25
Speaker
yeah And that to me speaks of an exceptional costume designer with those sensibilities and those instincts and that work is to like make that world real for that character and not just look at it as this is my special moment. Absolutely. maybe and le me so So, I mean, it's like kind of too bad that she was like, I'm good but after it because like clearly, you know, she could have, if she wanted to yeah put like, put her focus on that, she could obviously do another universe. She would be really high up there with other costume designers. But I think we've we've experienced some pretty cool stuff with her performing career. And I'm sure that she's been able to have that input there. so Absolutely. Absolutely. So, yeah, that's so true. Like, I mean, she has – I mean, she's, like, the personification of, like, glamour in some yeah ways. Yeah. She's legend. Yeah.
01:15:21
Speaker
you don't ah You don't stumble into that either. no so i think she's addict she did ok think she She made the right choice. She made the right choice.
01:15:31
Speaker
Well, that was that was a hell of a ride. And at the end of it, I was happy that someone was dead. So that's something I expected to say. i was not I didn't have any dreams that that would be the ending for that character, but I was glad to see it. Oh.
01:15:48
Speaker
After consulting with the Omniscient Spreadsheet, we now know that the next movie on our list is... Do you think that this was an obvious choice for the list? I think maybe not, but I had to put it on here.
01:16:04
Speaker
I don't have a connection to this movie the same way that you do. So I was kind of excited to see it because i the only time I think I've seen it was in parts on TV because it used to be on TV all the time. So it would have been my grandma's house. And so when I saw it on the list, I was like, this actually does make sense because I do remember something about it that was like, I can see it. I can see it being here. Yeah. All right. Well, to put everyone out of there, you know, to end the suspense, the suspense, cutting the suspense.
01:16:36
Speaker
there always i but I cannot talk today. This is so sad. Okay. The next movie that we will be covering on the podcast is the iconic late 80s classic film, Troop. Beverly Hills. Now, this movie was very important to me when I was a kid. Like, and I say that truly, I say that with my whole heart. Like I loved this movie.
01:17:04
Speaker
As you said, it was always on TV. I absolutely had a VHS taped off of TV copy of the film. i watched it a lot.
01:17:16
Speaker
it, You might not think of it necessarily immediately for a movie about clothes because there are so many other things going on in the movie.
01:17:28
Speaker
But I think it has it has a lot to say how... about how clothing informs what we think about each other and ourselves. And it says it in a very privileged, white Los Angeles way, but it does say it.
01:17:49
Speaker
So we shall dive in. And y'all better act right, is what she's saying. You had better act right. I'm just saying I understand the limitations of stories from this point of view. i get it. too I'm not trying to pretend the movie is something that it is not, but it is a classic.
01:18:08
Speaker
And Shelley Long is an absolute hero for her work in this film. I'm very excited to see a movie that means so much and is a part of your form formative years. Because like this is another example of how similar we are. Because born in the same year, grew up with all the same stuff. But we have very distinct departures with certain things. And so while Hook was a big one for me, this was a big one for you. now Get to see a little bit through the other's eyes.
01:18:38
Speaker
And I won't be offended if you're like, what? Why did you make me watch that? So like watching it as an adult, it's it's so it's it's so interesting how there are like certain things that you just cannot experience as an adult because you can only experience them the way that you remember them from your childhood. And like that kind of is what nostalgia is. And it's a trap. Yeah.
01:19:00
Speaker
um so i can't be objective about this movie so i'm sure it has endless problems that uh you could get into and i will be glad to listen to all of them and then disagree i love how much candor we have about that i will not be partial i mean like i i won't i will be partial i won't be impartial i will absolutely hold on to what this means to my heart until i'm forced off the cliff
01:19:27
Speaker
And then y'all acknowledge it. Yeah. Everybody has those movies. Legend for me. Honestly. yeah And that was actually really fun to watch, but it was crazy. yeah
01:19:41
Speaker
So hopefully this will be in that category, like fun to watch crazy. oh I'm looking forward to it. Thank you so much for listening. And I feel like we're going to have a lot of fun in our next episode because the 70s have launched us into the eighty s And I don't know. Hopefully we won't have a creepy photographer in the next one who tries to murder Diana Ross. Yeah, I can't remember. I guess we'll have to find out together. See you in the next one. Bye.
01:20:15
Speaker
Bye.