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S2.E2 - Enemies to Lovers
177 Plays1 year ago
Enemies to Lovers to rivals to friends. It's an unending rollercoaster of twists and tales. Tune in to hear about how much we love this trope even though we know it can be very problematic!
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Favorite and Disliked Tropes
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the chosen ones and other tropes where I ask two published authors about their favourite tropes and the ones that make them want to cry.
The Hunger Games and Parenting vs. Abuse
00:00:07
Speaker
Um, you know the Hunger Games? And now... I do know the Hunger Games. I've heard about it. Yeah, you do know them, yeah. Essentially what the duzzies do to him is not parenting, it's child abuse. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Man's playing a G-nanny as well. He might be familiar to you.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's not as fun though, is it? It's tragic, isn't it? It's too depressing. It isn't Neville. It's just not. It's never going to be him. Yeah, Neville. She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. What are we doing?
Exploring the 'Enemies to Lovers' Trope
00:00:41
Speaker
Enemies to lovers. Yeah, this one's a lot. There's probably going to be a lot of crossover with other episodes, but that's fine because, well, we could go down so many different roads with this one.
00:00:51
Speaker
enemies to lovers. Goodness, we love treading that fine line between love and hate. We're talking Beauty and the Beast, Romeo and Juliet, Princess Diaries 2, and about half of the rom-coms that came out in the early 2000s, I think. Jared Butler did a ton of these. Let's throw it over to Naomi to start off with enemies to lovers, first thoughts.
00:01:16
Speaker
I love it. One of my favourite tropes to read. I absolutely adore it. Although I do find it difficult to write. I've written it once and I think I just...
00:01:32
Speaker
I'm really good at having my characters be really mean to each other so that when they eventually get together it's just like not realistic because they've been too mean. But yeah when you get it right it's just it's such good reading because like I love quick snappy dialogue and I think a lot of the enemies to lovers background is basically constant sparring particularly verbal sparring and this idea that eventually
00:01:55
Speaker
they only get satisfaction from sparring with each other and that just develops into feelings. It's just so good. Yeah. It's the classic playground thing of like, oh, they're only mean to each other because they like each other and they're scared to admit their actual feelings. It's perfect. What about Melissa?
Challenges in Writing 'Enemies to Lovers'
00:02:13
Speaker
Similar vibes?
00:02:14
Speaker
Yeah, I'm the same actually, I really like it. But again, find it really difficult to write and I can't put my finger on why. So like I quite like to usually look at examples and then sort of try and emulate it. And I find it really difficult with, and there's just such a vibe enemies as opposed to actual written stuff. Like you just know it's going to be good. You can feel the vibe. You're like, Oh, okay.
00:02:34
Speaker
It's this kind of book and you know exactly what to expect, but like not in a spoiler way. More or less like a really nice promise of what's coming. So I really like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you usually know it's coming because it'll be in the marketing materials.
00:02:50
Speaker
That's so true. Every TikTok. But yeah, I think as a writer constructing it, it's so good as a device because it just creates... It's a sort of endless conflict and tension. It's a really good way of making sure that there's always a good pace throughout the story, right?
00:03:13
Speaker
No matter where you are, whether it's a A-plot or a B-plot, you can always just throw in something that they're never quite in sync. So you can always throw something in a spanner in the works and you'll just kick off some more conflict. I mean, we have to mention that there's like categories of it. And this is what I was doing. A little quick look around the internet.
00:03:34
Speaker
And people do love to break this down because I think they're all quite distinct.
Traditional vs. Personal 'Enemies to Lovers'
00:03:38
Speaker
It has quite a range to it. So the things that I found online is you have the traditional enemies to lovers, and this is your stuff like Romeo and Juliet or A Song of Ice and Fire, John Snow and Agreed, where it's like they are established enemies sort of have been out. It's usually an external thing where it's like
00:04:03
Speaker
they may not, like it's not a personal enemies thing. It's a, they just are established from two different clans or tribes or whatever. Um, six of crows is the same thing slash shadow and bone that they do six crows in shadow of bone TV series. Yeah. Um, that's the enemies to lovers is like established. They are against each other, whether that's personally or, or, or bigger. And then the one that I saw, which is
00:04:27
Speaker
which I kind of realized as I was going through this, I think is actually more broadly used is haters to lovers. Is that different? Okay. And like, these are, you know, we're kind of loosely looking at these. It's hard to kind of, there's a nuance to all of them, but this is more like, um,
00:04:48
Speaker
that it's more like a personal thing or like there's a reason. So the examples that I had was like Han Solo and Leia in Star Wars. Yeah. Like there's nothing, there's nothing that sets them apart as like, like, like socially really other than he's like a rap scallion. But like they, they just at first, they very much don't like each other because he thinks she's spoiled and she thinks he's a stinky pirate boy. And
00:05:17
Speaker
And then there's The Ugly Truth, one of Jared Butler's many forays into this. They do talk shows or they're both talkers about romance relationships, but they hate each other because they have such opposing views. 10 Things I Hate About You. 10 Things I Hate About You, yes. I assume they hate each other, right? It's called 10 Things I Hate About You.
00:05:40
Speaker
I think she hates everyone. Yeah, she hates everyone. She hates the world. Which is just, it's just the taming of the shrew, right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. And then I had Stardust, which I love. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah. What a good, good thought. Where he, he like seems nice and then he literally chains her up and she says, she says something like, what did she say? Nothing says romance, like the gift of a kidnapped injured woman.
00:06:07
Speaker
But obviously that resolves. So I think the distinction there is that it's like a personal gripe against the other person as opposed to a pre-established thing like Romeo and Juliet, their Montagues and Capulets. There's no real personal issue between them, which is why the romance happens easily, but they know that they should be enemies.
00:06:29
Speaker
Yeah. It's like if they're opposites. Yeah. Because I was just thinking when you were saying that, would you count?
Haters to Lovers: Katniss and Peeta?
00:06:35
Speaker
And I don't know if this is maybe something to do with. So the whole thing in the Hunger Games is that Katniss hates Peter because, checks notes, he didn't throw, he didn't throw her some bread in a polite way. She like really hates it. She hates that guy. She's like, oh, I could kill that guy. She literally throws him against a wall and it's like, who are you?
00:06:55
Speaker
That's haters to Lois then. See, I didn't think it was because of that. I thought she hated him because she was weak in front of him. I thought she more hated herself. Oh, and insecurity. Yeah. And the fact that he then responded to it and tried to help her and she had shown weakness and she hated that he knew that part of her that needed help. Yeah.
00:07:17
Speaker
I don't know. On the holiday. No, Naomi had took a much, much deeper take on that. Chill out. You got some bread. Like calm down girl. He threw that bread weird. He did throw it into a puddle. It would annoy me. Yeah. I'll give her that. To be fair, actually, you know what? Yeah. Keep your bread.
00:07:39
Speaker
There was another form of this though, which is I think, and we'll get onto that this can be a bit problematic at times, but this is probably
Rivals to Lovers in Media
00:07:50
Speaker
the least problem. This is the most realistic one I think in real life is the rivals to lovers, which is something like Ash Ketchum and Gary Oak. They don't get together though, right? I'm sorry, I haven't read that fanfic. Oh dear, what have you been watching?
00:08:06
Speaker
This is so much fanfic, right? Because this is my Malfoy Hermione fanfic. But non-fanfic, like the hating game is this. How to lose a guy in 10 days, I think is kind of this. Because they get put in a situation where neither of them has any grudge against the other one per se. They're both trying to achieve different things for different reasons. I don't know if you guys remember that movie. I don't, actually.
00:08:35
Speaker
Matthew McConaughey, Kate Hudson. Yeah, but he was in so many though. That's true. I can't differentiate. He did a whole run at one point. Sorry. And then there's this one I think is quite common in TV series. This is what happens kind of in Castle. I thought Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a good example of this with Amy and Drew. Oh, that's brilliant. Yeah, that's really good. That's my favorite. They're the best. They're the best detectives in the precinct.
00:09:01
Speaker
Yeah, in constant competition. And it's, but it's kind of very, it's like a healthy competition. Yeah, kind of rivals.
00:09:10
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And then that kind of draws them closer. And then I think the healthy thing about Rivals is that it can be like that can be part of the attraction in like a proper way where it's like. Yeah, that's so true. You're brought together by the fact that you're both like very competitive about this thing. Yeah. And you already have something in common. And I love those. That's a really good point. I hadn't really thought about that, but those specifically I do really like. And maybe it's just, it gives you more to play with with the character where the romance doesn't have to be super A plot. So I quite like that. Yeah.
00:09:39
Speaker
I don't know if it is. It feels like with rivals to lovers stories, it's usually parallel plot because it's not necessarily A or B, the rivals part. There's a lot of forced proximity. There's a lot of two people working in an office and they have to both do something like set it up was another one I saw recently on TV. Do you remember what women want?
00:10:03
Speaker
Yes. That's kind of like rivals in an office together. Yeah. Very common in Hallmark films at Christmas. Super common. They go back to their small town and there's a lad there who really wants to be a chef, but her company wants to buy his dad's restaurant. And so it's like rivals. Yeah, that's super common. Yeah, that's true. But it's such a friendly trope, like a friendly way to do this trope, I think.
00:10:30
Speaker
I had some that kind of straddled. I didn't know if they were one or the other, which I think I'm guessing a lot of people will initially say pride and prejudice haters to lovers.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah, right. But I would put forth that both Mr Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet, their motivations are primarily fueled by their desire to protect their friends and family. Yes, that's interesting. So in that way, I would argue you could see them as rivals.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah.
Pride and Prejudice: Haters or Opposing Interests?
00:11:04
Speaker
I see what you mean. Like opposing interests. Yeah. But I think realistically it takes us to love ourselves. Also common. Yeah. Yeah. Which is probably the most famous, what part, the use of the trope, I think.
00:11:20
Speaker
Did she invent it, Jane Austen, do you think? She invented most things. She invented most of the romance tropes. She was there first, basically. Here's one that's in contention. So, Buffy, obviously you've got enemies to lovers with Spike Obby. Brilliant, yeah. But is Angel a rival to lovers? Oh, yeah. I was going to say he was, and I was just thinking what you were doing. I don't know. I think he still counts as an enemy because he is a vampire.
00:11:50
Speaker
And she's the vampire slayer, so technically they are enemies. But doesn't he hunt vampires? He doesn't want to be an empire, right? He doesn't know, and he does hunt vampires. But he still is one. You've taken his patch. Maybe she took his patch, actually. He's older. Yeah, he's been there for some jobs. Maybe he's both. He's everything to lovers. Yeah, perfect. Perfect.
00:12:13
Speaker
Um, what do you guys think? Cause I know that this, um, this trope is, I think we're, I think we're all in agreement that we all kind of love it. But at the same time, um, like Melissa said, when we did love triangles, uh, there's a part of us that's like, my toxic trait is that I love this, even though I know it can be bad. Um, what do you, what do you guys think are the kind of problematic sides of this?
00:12:39
Speaker
Um, so I have a good example of a bad one and I think it does lead into the problematic area. Um, so it wasn't in the movies, but it's in the books. Um, Clarice Starling and Hannibal Lecter. And I think that is f'ed up. I didn't know that happened in the books. Was he younger in the books?
00:13:05
Speaker
I don't think, I don't know, because she has- Now I'm picturing Anthony Hopkins. Yeah, I know, right? She has daddy issues and he lost a sister and they both kind of look at each other for those things. And it's, yeah. And because like, obviously he's a criminal and she's a cop. To put it mildly, he's a criminal. He didn't just steal someone's handbag.
00:13:34
Speaker
So I don't like that. I think that is problematic. And I think when you introduce a romance in that kind of scene scenario, it's so unhealthy that it's problematic. So that was one for me that was a giant red flag. I did not enjoy that one.
00:13:52
Speaker
Is it posed as part of the kind of like, obviously, the Silence of the Lambs and those stories are sort of very dark psychological thriller kind of things. Is it posed as like, this is bad or is it sort of slightly romanticized?
00:14:07
Speaker
Um,
Problematic Tropes: Toxic Relationships
00:14:08
Speaker
I, I've only read it once and I don't really remember. Um, but I think, I think it was more the fact that they both have like major issues and they were like using each other to, um, explore those issues. It was just kind of like really strange. Um, so yeah, I don't know if it was romanticized as such cause I don't think.
00:14:31
Speaker
Oh, is that why in the Hannibal television show, he has a sort of pseudo-romantic non-physical relationship with, I forget the character's name, but the main character in that. Will. Will, yeah. Yeah. I was thinking the same thing actually. Yeah. Because he's quite obsessed with them, isn't he? Yeah. They're obsessed with each other. Very protective of him, which is a big thing in this trope.
00:14:54
Speaker
But there is one similar sort of vibes, Luther. Have you ever watched Luther? No, actually. Yeah, I've watched bits of Luther. So there's a criminal in that called Alice, I think. I can't remember her surname. And she's played by Ruth. I can't remember her surname.
00:15:15
Speaker
She's really good. And that kind of, they don't really get together. You don't see them kissing or anything, but you get the impression that something's going on. And that is really cool. I really like that because she is basically a murderer, but she's really like...
00:15:32
Speaker
I don't know, she's really charismatic and charming, there's something about her. So it's fun. Yeah, and Luther's just like, I don't know, they're just playing this constant game against each other, like who can win, and so the fact that they get together, I just think it's kind of cool, even though it's like really bad. So that works for me, but Chloe Starling and Hannibal Lecter does not work.
00:15:52
Speaker
But Luther is always posed as deeply damaged, not a role model. Yeah, exactly. I think it's quite gritty, isn't it? Whereas you want Clarice to do the right thing, whereas you think Luther may not necessarily do the right thing. So, yeah. I guess that's kind of like a harder version of Batman and Catwoman.
00:16:13
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, I don't know all the backstory that well, but as far as I'm aware, she's mostly just a thief and she doesn't really hurt people, so she's kind of like a scallywag. A little bit out for herself. Super evil, yeah. Yeah, there's definitely parallels there, I think, yeah.
00:16:31
Speaker
So sorry, we were talking about problematic and I went off on a tangent. Well they were problematic. Those were problematic. They fit, they totally fit. Does it count if it's problematic, but not because of like, like you really should have better morals and a better moral compass, but just more, I think it was really poorly done.
00:16:49
Speaker
I have one that I just think. I literally have one and I'm like, I couldn't be bothered to identify the issues other than it's just so badly done. You go on, what's
Critique of Twilight's Toxic Traits
00:16:59
Speaker
the one that you're thinking of? The one I was thinking of, especially if you read the companion novel, Midnight Sun is Twilight. She sets it up and she's going to be like, yeah, this is totally enemies to lovers, but really the only enemies to lovers in there are Jacob and Edward. Let's get real. They're not really enemies, are they?
00:17:15
Speaker
I just want to eat her so much. Oh, he hates me because he stares at me with his black eyes. And I'm like, this is not, you're pretending they're enemies, but they are not, sir. That would be so much more interesting if a werewolf and a vampire got together. Yeah. Right. Imagine the babies. Edward and Jacob got together. Why not? That'd be really interesting.
00:17:36
Speaker
way more interesting than Bella pretending to hate Edward and Edward pretending to hate Bella. Bella becoming a vampire is the equivalent of like retelling Romeo and Juliet and just adding like someone from some other family to come and marry Romeo. Well she reads Romeo and Juliet doesn't she? Of course she does. It comes up a lot.
00:17:58
Speaker
Well, since you brought up Twilight, I was going to say problematic things that I... The main thing, and you kind of covered this with the Hannibal Lecter stuff, is it's the promotion of toxic traits or sort of romanticizing characters treating each other in sort of cold, rude, or like sometimes even violent ways, and then often rewarding characters for said things.
00:18:26
Speaker
And I mean, Twilight's, you know, Edward spends most of the books gaslighting all the other characters, I guess. Everyone's gaslighting everyone in Twilight all the time.
00:18:41
Speaker
Does it even count as gaslighting if everyone's doing it? Yeah, it's true. Like everyone should just not trust anyone. And I think, yeah, I don't know. I think as a writer, there is some responsibility to think about your audience and how, you know, who you're writing for and how that might affect them and how it might be interpreted. Yeah. Yeah. Because the difficult thing is you want both parties to be
00:19:09
Speaker
likeable enough that when they get together, it's what you want. And yeah, when you've got people gaslighting each other on both sides, you're just like, don't really care about either of them. Yeah, it's like, it's hard to root for Jacob or Edward when it's like, you're both insane.
00:19:27
Speaker
Which is why they should be together. You're perfect for each other. Speaking of looking at the different characters, I thought that there was an interesting thing here with, and part of the reason I think
00:19:42
Speaker
that this trope in particular is really popular and sort of successfully done a lot of time is because it kind of sets up a situation where you as a writer have to clearly establish each of the characters independently of each other because they need to start out as enemies, which means they need to have at least one point of conflict
00:20:07
Speaker
So it's very hard to write a one dimensional enemies to lovers characters, because they'll have to at some point, they'll grow and kind of evolve into each other in the relationship. But they do have that they'll have to have separate starting points. I think often that works in stuff, because you clearly identify each of them individually before
00:20:30
Speaker
Like in real life, when couples get together and the edges start to blur and they identify more as a couple than two individuals. Does that make sense? Yeah, that totally makes sense. It makes me think of my, like when I was little, I had the tape of this and I would like play it over and over and over. The Anastasia animated film. It's like so good. Yeah, the Don Bluth one. It's Meg Ryan and John Cusack play. And they set up so well, like the story of how
00:20:58
Speaker
like he was there when she was young and they attacked the palace and then obviously they come apart and then and then later they come back together and they they really dislike each other they really rub each other up the wrong way but then they rub each other up the right way and it's fine and they get together so um yeah i always really loved that one and that was definitely an enemies to love those type scenarios that had quite good dialogue in it that was also a dialogue base because he had like a chip on his shoulder that he was poor
00:21:24
Speaker
Yes. And she was quite happy to pick it. It was funny. So yeah, I really enjoyed that one. It was. It was really good. Based on the TikToks and shorts and stuff that I've seen about this trope, people seem to love near constant bickering that builds up to the eventual getting together. You know what? There's a book that does that really, really well. It's To Kill a Kingdom by Alexander Christo.
00:21:52
Speaker
And it is so good, like the two characters, they really don't like each other.
00:21:57
Speaker
the beginning they're just constant arguing but it's quite funny and it's obviously about who can win the argument and then eventually they just because they don't get that stimulation from anyone else they almost they just keep constantly just go to each other to like have a bit of a verbal spar and it's just like you know they're obviously just two peas in a pod basically and you just want them to get together because they're just so funny so yeah that book does it really well.
00:22:23
Speaker
I would say that there isn't any enemies to lovers in Twilight though.
00:22:35
Speaker
Well, no, exactly. But she obviously said it up as that, especially if you read Midnight Sun as well. She obviously thinks he hates her for no reason. And of course he's like, I hate her because she will expose me to the humans. Blah, blah, blah. You know? Yeah. So she was just saying it out that way. This coming from the guy that went and stood on the steps and like took his top off in this. That was his choice, sorry.
00:23:04
Speaker
Um, the really bad one I had and this is just bad because it did actually happen. And I was like, was like, no, I didn't know was, um, in the new star Wars with Ray and Kylo Ren. Oh my goodness. That was awful. Right. Yeah. That was shoehorned in once in the last 10 seconds of the movie quick. Yeah. I never felt any tension between these two. Perhaps there was something interesting with the long range communication that could have been explored, but it was never.
00:23:34
Speaker
sexual, there was all romantic, there was no chemistry. I totally agree. When they kissed, I was like, uh. It's almost like watching your brother and sister kiss. It just wasn't, it was not good. Which they've already done that before having the brother and sister kiss. You don't need it against Star Wars. Classic Star Wars. Classic Star Wars. You do need the chemistry though. I think like enemies to lovers, the fun of it is when they're like yelling at each other, you kind of sit there with a little smoke face. Cause you're like, Oh, I see it. I get it. They don't yet.
00:24:03
Speaker
it. Yeah. And it's so much fun. And if they don't have chemistry, and especially if you're watching like a movie, and obviously got two axes, that they don't have chemistry, it does not work. You can't, even about how well written it is, they have to, you have to be like, begging them to kiss. That's the entire point. Yeah. Yeah. The fight's happening. And you're kind of like the the endorphins of like seeing a fight. And it's like, oh, exciting fight. I'm next in with the Oh my God, please make out. Yeah.
00:24:31
Speaker
Their faces are so close together. We're only human with simple beings. That's it. It's all about the build up. What's the converse of this? I guess it's just friends to lovers.
00:24:45
Speaker
Yeah. And we talked about doing an episode on that and we kind of decided that it's all in the title really. Yeah. You know what's going to happen in Friends of the Lover story. They're already friends. Yeah. There's not enough conflict. Yeah. Well, the conflict is usually a love triangle where someone who's never going to end up with one of them comes in and then ends up again.
00:25:08
Speaker
Look at your way. Yeah, it's, you know, absolutely nothing wrong with it. Friends to Lovers, I think is, we're going to talk about a lot of romance tropes over the next few weeks, but I think Friends to Lovers might be one of the ones where I'm like, this almost 100% of the time has to be a B-plot because it can't just be the A-plot. Yeah.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's very true because it's just the great thing that I really like about building. So I've written something recently in January that has enemies to lovers and I've definitely not nailed it yet because it is really hard to write and like I need to like edit it, make it much, much better.
00:25:43
Speaker
but it does add easy conflict for you. It's a really nice vehicle to put a bunch of conflict, like for instance the rivals one, so easy like what's that one called with Reese Witherspoon, the
Why Writers Love 'Enemies to Lovers'
00:25:54
Speaker
election or something where she's trying to be class president and it kind of creates this whole thing that obviously the other person trying to be class president obviously fancies her and therefore but if one of them win then they'll be separated so
00:26:06
Speaker
It gives you that really neat character arc of if they get the thing that they want, which is win the tournament, win the thing, then the other person's sad and they don't get what they need, which is like each other. So it's just really easy, nice plotting. And from a plotter perspective, it's great. It gives you a plot. It's like a gift of a plot.
00:26:23
Speaker
And I really like that. And I don't have a problem with that either because I always think it's characters first. And as you said, Jamie, the characters have to be really good, both characters and enemies to lovers anyway. They have to have really solid backgrounds. So that's why I really like it. Whereas friends to lovers, it doesn't give you a plot. So it's harder in a way.
00:26:43
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. The only ones I can think of are like the kind of, like we talked about them in their episode, the kind of like slow burn long stretched out ones. Yeah. Um, like, is it one day? Hmm. Yes. It's like 20 years. Yeah. And the one, the one with, um, too much love Rosie. The other one.
00:27:01
Speaker
Yes, love roses, very similar plot. Those two. But I mean, plot wise, they're very slow. They're not like, they're very simple, slow plots. It's essentially just kind of documenting someone's life through many years. Yeah. And it gets, it's interesting what you were saying as well about TV series, because as we've seen, never have I ever on Netflix,
00:27:22
Speaker
No. No. Oh, it's really good. It's about this girl and her dad passed away when she's young and her dad was obsessed with, I cannot remember, John McElroy, the tennis player. So John McElroy narrates the show of this teenage girl's thoughts. It's amazing. That's very funny. I think it's Mindy Kaling wrote it. I want to say Mindy Kaling. I think so. It's very, very funny. And they have a storyline all the way through.
00:27:45
Speaker
of she has a rival at school for like to be the best in the class and to be the valedictorian and everything and obviously there's like chemistry there that they're always fighting because they have to hate each other and that does it quite well even when they renew the series because you can invent other things to keep them apart because they are literally rivals.
Love Triangles to Rival Relationships?
00:28:04
Speaker
Yeah. I wonder if there's a love there must be a story that does this where there's a love triangle and then the two rivals
00:28:13
Speaker
for the third person end up together. There must be, right? It seems like such a good fusion of tropes. Brilliant. I can't think of one. I'm going to write that. Thanks. That's great. I did have one going quickly, dialing back to toxic ones. I've just seen my note here about Groundhog Day.
00:28:38
Speaker
Oh, yes, that is bad. Because it's him and his producer. Yeah. And she knows that he's an interminably vain bore. Right. He's obsessed with himself. But then obviously he, you know, he gets stuck in the one day, he loops. And then even though he in quotes grows as a character, he kind of like
00:29:02
Speaker
It is implied that he understands his flaws by the end and becomes a better person. It's still extremely problematic that he basically solves. He treats it like a compilation lock and he solves the right order of phrases to say to her to eventually get her to sleep with him basically.
00:29:22
Speaker
But she never does though. Does she not? No, she never actually sleeps with him. I think he gets really frustrated with it and abandons that plan. And then he eventually becomes in quotes good. Yeah. So I think that's why it's redeemable because it's like, okay, fine. She's just not that kind of girl. She's just never going to sleep with me on the first date. Fine. I'll go away and do something else for a while. And he does. But the fact that he tries so hard to do it is really, really unlikable.
00:29:53
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, that's true. Cause he's just trying to manipulate her. So like, he's like, what do you drink? Oh yeah, I drink that too. Like, let's go. How many kids do you want? Oh, me too. Yeah. You know, it's just like really, really toxic.
00:30:07
Speaker
Oh yeah, he starts doing cycles where he's literally like taking notes, isn't he? Yeah. Of everything that she says. Yeah. Yeah. There was a more modern movie that did a similar thing and it was very much called out for being problematic. Oh really? I can't remember what it was. Yeah, but it was essentially the same thing where it was like this guy, but I think the idea was that it was his best friend who he'd always been in love with and he had a chance to go back in time and like ask her out when they were younger.
00:30:33
Speaker
And he got to keep reliving that so he eventually like could figure out how to do it. Isn't that like 13 going on 30?
00:30:41
Speaker
where she's really mean to her friend and then in the future he's really fit and like really successful and stuff when she's about 30. So then they go back to when she's 13 and she goes and kisses him in the spin the bottle game. Yeah, so that he doesn't end up with that girl later on. Right, Jennifer Garner and then Mark Ruffalo, question mark, maybe not. No it is, yes, Mark Ruffalo. Okay, so I remembered. That's really bad. Yeah, that is like the plot, I'm pretty sure. Yep. I'm just remembering it.
00:31:08
Speaker
Are they enemies though? Does that count as part of the joke? No, they're like childhood best friends. And then she's horrible to him because, well, as per usual, this thing of, because he's overweight, all the girls are like, he, he, who has to kiss him in the Spin the Bottle games. He's so gross. Then he's Mark Ruffalo. It's like, wow.
Final Thoughts on 'Enemies to Lovers'
00:31:27
Speaker
Yeah, it's not good.
00:31:29
Speaker
So in conclusion, I think it's such a compelling, you know, it can be toxic, but as a trope, as a kind of story hook, as a means of creating conflict and intrigue and building up to it, this is such a compelling way to write a story. I think the thing to be, for me, the thing to be careful of, if you are a writer coming into this,
00:31:55
Speaker
Is that it can be treacherous and like you should definitely be double checking that you are I mean you don't have to you know, this is fiction we can write whatever but you don't want to be promoting like unhealthy traits and things like that you can everyone has unhealthy traits and we all have our own you know toxic traits, but
00:32:17
Speaker
I feel like with this one, you need to tread a line because if you go too far, it can be like, it can be an issue and you can be like, oh no, this is actually, I'm like celebrating. It's a delicate balance. Yeah. Especially if you were enjoying it and then it pulls off and you're like, oh, I feel gross now. Yeah. I don't like that. Yeah.
00:32:39
Speaker
I think when we come to the tier list for this, this is going to be one where I will put it in a much lower grade than how much I actually enjoy it, if that makes sense. So you get like objectively. Yeah. I'll try and be as objective as possible, but I like, I love this trope. Like this is, this is probably, I mean, I read a lot of fantasy, so this is like the, this is the main romance trope in fantasy. What do you guys think? What's your conclusion on it?
00:33:09
Speaker
Yeah, love it. Even after dissecting it, still love it. Try it with my cold dead hands. True. I mean, I'm writing it. Well, you know, I think two of us are writing it right now. Yeah. So let's go. Being objective, two of us are writing it and let's go. Yeah, not biased at all, but listen guys, it's the best.
00:33:40
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melova, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.