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S2.E4 - Grumpy and Sunshine
188 Plays1 year ago
Always interesting to see people coming together, clashing and eventually overcoming their differences to bond and become closer than they could ever have imagined. Or is it?!
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Chosen Ones Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the chosen ones and other tropes where I ask two published authors about their favourite tropes and the ones that make them want to cry. Um, you know the Hunger Games? And now... I do know the Hunger Games.
Exploring 'Grumpy and Sunshine' Trope
00:00:10
Speaker
I've heard about it. Yeah, you do know them, yeah. Essentially what the duzzies do to him is not parenting, it's child abuse. Yeah. Beautiful. Man's playing a lot of G-nanny as well. Might be familiar to you.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's not as fun though, is it? It's not. It's tragic, isn't it? It's too depressing. But it isn't Neville. It's just not. It's never going to be him. Yeah, Neville. She shouldn't have done that. I'm trying to make Neville happen. That's the upside of recording stuff without having to record that. Oh, nice. So you didn't really start recording it?
00:00:46
Speaker
Yeah. Grumpy and Sunshine. Grumpy X Sunshine is what I've written on my notes. That is a really good name for a band, I think. Grumpy and Sunshine, I mean, it's in the name. Grumpy, this is obviously two characters. The Grumpy one, all doom and gloom, pessimism, serious, sometimes a bit distant. And then the other character, Sunshine, upbeat, energetic, optimistic, manic, pixie, energy.
00:01:15
Speaker
Put them together, swirl them around a bit, see what happens. All a bit of fun. Naomi, take us away. Where are you at with this?
00:01:23
Speaker
So this one I am unsure on, if
Examples in Media
00:01:27
Speaker
I'm honest. I was looking into it. I was aware of it for a while, but I don't think it's ever something I've really, really got excited about. It's not something I would run into the shops to buy. But I'm happy to be convinced. I think I'm waiting for you both to convince me it's great. Oh, sorry. I should have done Melissa first. Melissa, quick, take the reins.
00:01:47
Speaker
Quick, quick, we're out of control. So I decided, even though obviously I know this season we're discussing romance tropes, but I like it more with platonic relationships. So my favourite as soon as I thought of it was like in Wreck-It Ralph. Oh, I love it. What a great example.
00:02:05
Speaker
Obviously, he's really grumpy. Oh, I've forgotten what she's called now, but the one's... Anellipy. Anellipy. Yes. Brilliant. And she's obviously the sunshine and he has to overcome his foibles
Romantic and Platonic Dynamics
00:02:20
Speaker
and she maybe has brought a little bit back into the real world and understanding other people maybe aren't always as happy as her. And I really like those and they're quite common as well in
00:02:29
Speaker
like dystopian stuff as well like you get somebody who's like even though this is a bad time so I'm not sure about in romance whether I'm that fussed about it but I really like it in platonic relationships so it's interesting you say that right because I think there's something quite toxic about it in a romance but oh interesting okay but similarly in a platonic relationship I thought of the road to El Dorado
00:02:51
Speaker
And you know there's two friends who are low-level thieves and one of them has kind of always got the plan and the pressure to come up with the plan and the other one is kind of a free spirit and goes along with it or either cocks up the plan forcing them both to think on their feet. And I think they riff off each other quite nicely like Wreck-It Ralph and Vanellope.
00:03:11
Speaker
But yeah, in terms of romance, I'm just not sure. I think there's this idea that grumpiness is complexity and I'm not sure necessarily that that's...
00:03:25
Speaker
Correct. That's true. Yeah. It's the like, broody silent thing. Yeah. And I just think actually, you know, you're just a grumpy asshole. You're not complex to me. I don't want to sit here and waste my time trying to work you out. You're just grumpy. Why would I want to be around you? So that's my problem with it.
00:03:43
Speaker
Let's, we're going to go, I had a whole platonic section as well, but let's, because this is going to be a, this is a season of romance. We're going to, let's start with romance as I've got a few here and we can, we can break them down and discuss them a bit. Um,
Character Writing Tips
00:03:57
Speaker
I mean, first of all, talking about it from a writing perspective,
00:04:01
Speaker
It is great because it's easy conflict. I mean, it's in line with enemies to lovers where it's like, okay, you immediately have a conflict between the two characters and it's going to force you to, well, to do it correctly, you will need to really realize your characters to be like, why is X grumpy and Y so happy all the time?
00:04:21
Speaker
But that's, that's a, that's a writing issue. Um, here's some of the examples. Like I came up with for, for romance, uh, frozen with Kristoff is like the grumpy moose. Is it a moose? It's a moose, right? Which is which like between Sven and Kristoff and Ola, which is which. Uh, Kristoff and Anna, where Anna is obviously sunshine and optimistic and he's like grumpy. Yeah, that's really good too, actually. I like that.
00:04:51
Speaker
I thought that was a cute one. As I mentioned on our WhatsApp group, I recently watched The Hating Game, which is like all the romance tropes, speedrun, any percentage. That's got a huge grumpy versus
Gender Roles and Queer Fiction
00:05:07
Speaker
sunshine. The male character is very much
00:05:11
Speaker
Well, he is presented as a sort of corporate business, no nonsense, the never jokes, like everything in its right place. And then she's the kind of aloof creative fun, bring people cakes and things like that. That one's pretty just classic office romance juxtaposition. Yeah. Feels that way.
00:05:29
Speaker
Here's one I had, one of Melissa's love to hate, hate to love, the summer I turned pretty. Because, well, I mean, he's super grumpy, the one that she ends up picking the clearly toxic choice. Yeah. This is part of the love triangle thing. She's basically picking between sunshine. Yeah. That's what I thought. Right. Interesting. Yeah. So it's a little bit twist where she's kind of a blank canvas.
00:05:57
Speaker
Okay, and she's got the pick of yeah especially because I was just thinking when you're saying that I was like, oh yeah, most of the time the grumpy person is the male character and However, then I thought actually in The Walking Dead. There's a really nice romance between
00:06:17
Speaker
Carol in later seasons who's really grumpy for very good reason. She's had a very terrible time in the apocalypse. And then she falls for King Ezekiel who speaks. The whole thing is that he worked in a zoo beforehand but he was in amateur dramatics and there's lots of Shakespeare so he talks to everyone in his kingdom and he is the king and he's always given these amazing rousing speeches that he borrows from Shakespeare that nobody realises and he's always really upbeat
00:06:40
Speaker
It goes into things like, not one of us will fall and we'll have such a great time and yet we smile and she's always really grumpy, but that's all because they love each other. So that works quite nicely. And that's a female being grumpy, but it's rare. It is rare. So I looked, I looked at this because I had a bunch of examples and then I was like, huh?
00:06:58
Speaker
There's definitely a trend towards, the bias leans towards the male character being grumpy and the female character being sunshine. In movies that goes hard into the female, that goes hard into the manic pixie dream girl thing.
00:07:14
Speaker
And just a little, this was a little Google online. What people call the reverse grumpy and sunshine is when the grumpy character is the female character, which I thought was weird because it's like, I don't know why it makes a difference. And I do have some examples for that. Most recently, everything everywhere all at once.
00:07:36
Speaker
Ah, yes. Right. Well, Michelle Yeoh's character is the, like, grumpy one. Yeah, so true. And the husband is the absolute icon who we're all in love with and made us cry. That works so well. Yeah. Yeah. It works very well. And I actually think having them that way around, having the husband as the sensitive doting one, made it even more powerful.
00:08:00
Speaker
But that smashes so many stereotypes, doesn't it? Having it that way around. Yeah, which is nice, because what about in queer fiction? So like in All That's Left in the World by Eric J. Brown, it's a male-male romance. And that definitely has grumpy sunshine elements, because you get dual point of view. One of them is very much a survivalist, very much resigned to his fate, and the other one just loves watching movies and is really a believer he'll get through this, but is actually kind of useless, but doesn't really mind.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah. And so, yeah, that feels a bit like if you are going to make it that is specifically the other way around, if it's male, female, then that excludes some queer fiction as well. So yeah, no, I don't like that. And speaking of queer fiction, last of us, episode three, that's Grumpy and Sunshine. That is definitely Grumpy and Sunshine. Yeah. Perfect.
00:08:48
Speaker
If you know you know, that's all I was saying. If you know you know. It's a really really happy episode like they all are. Very uplifting. I have played the game before.
Reverse Dynamics and Media Examples
00:09:02
Speaker
But disclaimer though, you know, as always, just stay hydrated. You've got to make sure you drink a lot of water. Also reverse grumpy V sunshine ones. I got 10 things I hate about you.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. That's a really good example. That's true. Patrick is the happy one. But like we previously discussed, she hates everyone. But still, it's still funny. And also she's all that. She's all that, she hates everyone too. Yeah, that's true. And she's grumpy. And I just want to paint in my basement. Interestingly, those are kind of all from the 90s. True. So maybe it was more common back then. I think there's less examples of it now.
00:09:46
Speaker
Uh, the, um, hypothesis, which I mentioned on, on one of the previous episodes about the, the, cause we were talking about the, the, the, the guy in that relationship is the guy who's trying to trick the Harvard board or something to get, to fund his PhD reasons. Yeah. But she's the cynical one in that, in that relationship. Right. Um, and then that this is a question mark one and it's obligatory because we have to talk about the hunger games in every episode. I was thinking of the hunger game and Peter.
00:10:13
Speaker
Yeah, that came to mind for me. The biggest boy versus the prim Reaper himself. Yeah, that's very true. But do you know what I don't like about that one, right? Is how grumpiness is kind of viewed as a strength there. And because Peter is all happy and feminine, it's almost like it's a weakness. Do you know what I mean? No, is it just me?
00:10:36
Speaker
I'm just laughing. I agree, I agree. His incredible cake making skills, when he paints himself into the rock and I was like, not possible. Sorry. Only a sunshine character could use cake making skills in order to survive. He can't fight, but my God, can he patisserie?
00:10:56
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And you can't have Grumpy Grumpy and that would have been Katniss and the Prim Reaper Gale. Yeah, exactly. It's not that. I think that's gonna be a trope used again in The Ballad of Songbirds and Snakes actually, because I think President Snow is quite grumpy, whereas Lucy Baird is quite sunshiny.
00:11:16
Speaker
Yeah.
Platonic Relationships in Series
00:11:17
Speaker
Which is funny because she's the one related to Katniss and Katniss is a grumpy. Exactly. It's quite funny. That did not trickle down. It's not genetic. There you go. Nature versus nurture. Going back quickly, I did have a couple more examples of non-reverse. The other ones, Fran Hart, that has a nice... Well, that's a queer one for you. So I guess it's
00:11:45
Speaker
Yeah. This is why reverse grumpy versus sunshine. It doesn't make any sense. You shouldn't be male or female, but I think it's a historical thing where it's like the man is grumpy and the woman is- I agree. That's what I don't like. Yeah. Ted Lasso.
00:12:02
Speaker
If anyone's watched Ted Lasso, Roy and Keeley is an absolutely classic, exaggerated grumpy versus sunshine. For anyone who's not watched Ted Lasso, Roy's entire personality is grumpy. Also, non-platonically, in a funny way.
00:12:19
Speaker
Ted Lasso, Roy and Ted. And then I was thinking about this and I was like, it's actually Roy and insert character here. And it's basically 90% the cast with Roy as Grumpy versus Suntran. They do that in the office a bit as well, I suppose. Yeah, that's true.
00:12:37
Speaker
In a TV show, if you have a character whose main attribute is that they're just really grumpy and it's kind of funny. Yes. Yes. That's so true. New girl, Nick and Jess. Yeah. Nick is always seen as like a grumpy old man in a younger person's body. Jess is, well, it's, she's like the manic pixie dream girl. I mean, yeah, absolutely. Zoey Deschanel. And then the one that I thought was interesting, and before we, I've thought this, this is a great segue into platonic.
00:13:07
Speaker
Pride and prejudice. Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennett. Yeah.
00:13:13
Speaker
is not like an extreme one. Obviously, he is grumpy. I don't know if I would outwardly say she is sunshine. Compared to him, yes. See, I don't know about that. I think they're both the same. Oh, you think they're both grumpy. Yeah, they do both feel quite grumpy, don't they? That's why they're so well matched. It is raffles to lovers. Can they both be in the same? Well, I suppose, yeah, they can be in the same space. But conversely, the sister,
00:13:40
Speaker
And what's her face? What's her name? Jane, is it? His sister.
00:13:45
Speaker
has Elizabeth's sister and the man she falls in love with. They're both Sunshine, whereas Elizabeth. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to say, perhaps, no, no, going on from that, Mr. Darcy and Mr. Bingley are actually Grumpy and Sunshine. And then I was going to be like, oh, Grumpy and Sunshine does not have to be the main characters or the love interest. No. And Jane and Mr. Bingley are Sunshine.
00:14:11
Speaker
Exactly. And then we get onto platonic, which is, so I've seen this, for some reason, the grumpy and sunshine thing seems to be the, the romance way of describing this genre. And then I've seen this, it platonically, I've seen it described as gleeful and grumpy.
00:14:28
Speaker
Oh, okay. That's interesting. But that might just be a minor thing I saw on the internet. It doesn't seem to make any sense to me that... The internet's all true, so... Oh, okay. We'll pass it now. Quite a sucker. And there's
Mentor Relationships
00:14:42
Speaker
tons in here. I mean, we've already talked about The Last of Us, episode three, but The Last of Us as a whole, Joel and Ellie is sunshine and grumpy.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yes. With the dad jokes and everything. And it's all about Ellie kind of winning over Joel to like make him laugh once and all that kind of stuff. Have you guys seen Wednesday? Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I mean, they couldn't be doing this harder with Wednesday. I mean, they may as well have just called them like Wednesday and Sunshine.
00:15:11
Speaker
from the way they dress to the way they act. It's great though. I love the juxtapositions when it pans into the bedroom and you see one half, which is just grayscale, and then the other half, which is like rainbows.
00:15:23
Speaker
Yes. It works really well in television shows and anything really with the character arcs because it does give you a very simple character arc to give them because they're opposite ends of a very extreme scale. That's the entire point. And they have to meet in the middle. So they have to help each other meet in the middle, which is why it lends itself to romance, even though it doesn't have to be romance, but does lend itself very neatly to a B plot in terms of the character arc.
00:15:47
Speaker
Yes. Yeah. It gives your characters direction, which is often something quite hard. Even if you know what your character wants, it's sometimes quite hard to find a direction within the narrative itself. Yeah. I think it can be really difficult writing romance as well. I'm working on a new project and I was talking to a UK YA chat group I've got, and everyone was talking about why is it that I can see them together, but when you're writing them and after that meet cute, when you're trying to get them
00:16:16
Speaker
to be together especially if they say enemies to lovers or something. The very first couple of meetings can be a bit tricky. Whereas I think if they're Grumpy Sunshine, it gives you a little bit of dialogue that they can totally have immediately. And it can be a bit more organic and you don't feel... I mean, I always struggle with first chapters anyway. I don't know about you Naomi, you've got some romance in yours. I struggle anyway with openings of any part of it. Like whenever I introduce a new character, I find it really difficult and those are the bits I have to rewrite. But I do think Grumpy Sunshine gives you something to go with.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Because it makes small talk interesting. Like you can, because it's like you can, the dialogue doesn't need that much meaning because you need to, you're conveying in subtext the juxtaposition. You're, you convey this character is grumpy, this character, and it can be through like,
00:17:00
Speaker
we'll take an English example and like the British thing would be discussing the weather and you can so easily convey that one character's like grumpy and one character's optimistic and happy about it. Yes and create comedy and also not everyone has a conversation like the first time like Edward and Bella do where it's really intense immediately. Most people just have normal conversations to start with and they get to know them. See I quite like that. I'll just jump in.
00:17:29
Speaker
Just go for it. Let's discuss the universe. Other examples are platonic one. I had Diary of a Wimpy Kid with Greg. Greg, the point of view, the main character and his best friend, Rowley is, he's like very cynical and kind of nervous and anxious. And then his best friend is like kind of a bit carefree and happy-go-lucky kind of cheerful. Yeah. Which is cute.
00:17:59
Speaker
Um, and then I had, we were talking about TV series earlier and we had like new girl. Um, they do it. Um, parks and rec does with, they, they actually have two of these. And the first one is, is a romance one with April and, and she's very serious and he's, uh, well, he's Chris Pratt.
00:18:23
Speaker
And then I got onto this other trend where I was like, oh, this is interesting because there's another one in there, which is actually like a mentorship relationship. And then I was like, oh, this is actually quite common in mentor relationships. So they have Leslie Knope and Ron Swanson in Parks and Rec. And Ron Swanson is like no nonsense by the book.
00:18:48
Speaker
this is how it's done and Leslie Lopez is very kind of optimistic idealist like oh I want to do everything and kind of unrealistic ideas about how her role and what she can actually do to affect the world around her. Right yeah. And I think it works so well with that kind of reluctant mentor
00:19:08
Speaker
uh, trope where the mentor is grumpy and like they have to kind of get chipped away. And because I relish any chance to bring up Kung Fu Panda, it's Poe and Shifu.
Buddy Cop Films and Character Growth
00:19:20
Speaker
Oh my gosh, it is. Yeah. Shifu's Poe's like all fun and like games and silliness and Shifu's like no nonsense. Get out. And I think kind of Mr. Miyagi as well in Karate Kid.
00:19:32
Speaker
Yeah. And Mulan in Mulan, and that's a romance one as well, because obviously he's technically mentoring them how to fight, right? And he's really grumpy. Yeah, I think it pairs really well with the reluctant mentor. That's true. It does. Yeah, it's interesting. And then the other thing that I think it appears in loads, which people, I don't think people generally connect this because it's the whole trope in itself is the buddy cop genre. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. Yes.
00:19:58
Speaker
Yeah. And it's to some degree that one of them will be very keen, enthusiastic. Maybe they're younger, and then there'll be a grumpy, bitter one. You get the old, like, I'm too old for this kind of thing. One day from retirement. Exactly. One day from retirement. So they do it men in black with, like, tiny gems. Yeah, men in black. Yeah, they do it really nicely. Lethal weapons, the obvious one. Shrek is kind of this. Shrek. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, that's very true. It's so obvious. You said it.
00:20:28
Speaker
Early Walking Dead. I know I've already mentioned Walking Dead, so I'm up to my quota, however. Early Walking Dead, what I like about that one is it doesn't work out. So it's more as if you've not seen a 10-year-old show because that's the season I'm talking about. It was like 10 years ago, but Shane and Rick, Rick is very optimistic and Shane was there during the apocalypse and it's not very optimistic and they were literally partners in the police.
00:20:50
Speaker
And then they end up falling out and it ends up with one of them dying. It's like very serious, falling out. And so it doesn't work out there, Sunshine. And then later he thinks in later seasons, was he right about maybe I am too optimistic about how these things are going to work out? And he does think about a lot. Like, should I have listened to Shane or should I have let him like, mentor me on what was going on a bit more? That's interesting. Yeah. So it doesn't work out there.
00:21:16
Speaker
I feel like that's the kind of thing you can only, I mean, as we always say, you can write whatever you want, but that kind of works better, I think, in an ongoing serialized story. Right. Yes. As opposed to like an open and closed one, because there's no closure in that. So if you like... There isn't, no. Unless you know there's a sequel coming, it's a bit like, eh, well, that's... Yeah, that would be quite a sad thing to build up. And it was quite sad. So yeah, it works.
00:21:40
Speaker
They, um, they have it in Brooklyn nine nine, which is another, another franchise gift that keeps giving with Rosa and Jake, who are supposed to be like really old friends. I know that they went to school together or something, but I know they have like a long backstory and like, obviously she's the, he he's a bit silly and goofy and she's very, very straight and serious. I think that dynamic works really well. And then they're always, even though they seem opposite, they're always there for each other. Yeah.
00:22:09
Speaker
And I had Good Omens written here, but I don't know if it's, Good Omens is like, if you guys know it, it's about an angel and a demon who basically make a deal to not have the apocalypse come about, because they don't want the end of the world to happen. So like by definition, they are like kind of grumpy in sunshine, except the angel would be the grumpy one in this situation in like a weird way. That's quite funny. Yeah, that's true.
00:22:35
Speaker
he's the one that's like nervous about breaking the rules and stuff and then obviously the demon's like, no, let's just do this. That's fun. Oh, it is fun. I do like it. I don't know if I'm that fussed about robots, but yeah, I do like it in like friendships. Yeah, it works, doesn't it? Found family is the most fun in found family. Yeah.
00:22:55
Speaker
Yeah, because really it's interesting that it's lent so hard in as a romance trope because it's just good character conflict, right?
Avoiding Stereotypes
00:23:10
Speaker
It's just putting two characters with different opinions together and seeing whether they can resolve their issues and become friends.
00:23:20
Speaker
which I think is just an interesting way to build a chapter or a sequence within any story.
00:23:27
Speaker
Yeah. I think when you, it's interesting you mentioned Brooklyn Nine-Nine and sort of that long standing back history that we technically aren't privy to because we haven't seen it. I think when you're jumping into something and you have two characters that are established and have known each other for a long time. So like, obviously in like say the Hunger Games, Katniss and Peter, they've technically met, but they don't really know each other. So we learn about their relationship with them and lots of these other ones, we learn about the relationship with them. But I think when you've got characters with backstory, it's quite good to have.
00:23:55
Speaker
because it shows us their differences without having to put a load of exposition in. Yeah, that's true. And it shows us like, oh, this is how they've been for a long time. Oh, I get it now. And so it kind of works on both perspectives to help to get to know the characters. Because I think that is really tough when you've got characters that already have an established relationship before the book starts or the film or whatever.
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah, true. Hunger Games is a weird one, isn't it? Because she's with Gail at the start. And then you think like, wow, she would have been with Gail had she not done that stuff. Has she not done it? Yeah. I mean, she's technically supposedly not with... I remember in the books they say, everyone thinks we're cousins. I thought that's a weird thing to drop in. That is quite... Yeah, that's not okay. Yeah, cousin romance trope is next week. Can't wait for that one.
00:24:48
Speaker
Old school. That's just Game of Thrones, isn't it? Yeah. And Jane Austen. Oh yeah. The background story to the grumpy character though is quite important to me because I think there is this almost like an excuse for
00:25:12
Speaker
underlying trauma, and the trauma being the reason why that person is grumpy. And I think that that can be a bit dangerous, just because trauma doesn't automatically mean you have a pass for being a miserable git. Do you know what I mean? And I think when you scratch the surface of why people are miserable,
00:25:37
Speaker
it's not an excuse to behave the way they do. I'm thinking of Christian Grey and Anastasia Steele here. That's a definite grumpy sunshine thing and he is grumpy because he has so much trauma in his life and when you actually learn about it you're like that's
00:25:58
Speaker
That's not okay. You should go to therapy. And I just think there's like a really, I don't know, it could be a bit of a crutch, I think, because you have trauma, you're trying to make your character complex.
Balancing Characteristics
00:26:13
Speaker
And it's fine to have trauma, but there's not a pass to be a gift to everybody. And I think that's why possibly in the romance side, it can get a bit toxic.
00:26:24
Speaker
It can be muddy. Yeah. But in the platonic thing, like for Shrek and Donkey, I think it works because Shrek is, he doesn't want to get hurt. So he's very defensive. And I think that's a different reason than what it would be for Christian Grey. Shrek and Christian Grey are different characters. You had it here first.
00:26:50
Speaker
I was thinking of a more wholesome one, which in a similar trend up, you know, Pixar's up. Oh, that's so good. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, so his, his in quotes, excuse for being like a grumpy old git is that his wife died and he just doesn't want to have anything to do with anyone.
00:27:09
Speaker
Yeah, so he doesn't want to get hurt either. He's scared. That's to Fredrickson. Yeah. Yeah. And Russell's just adorable. Isn't he? As is Doug. In fact, he's being attacked by two Sunshine characters, which is quite funny, actually. Yeah, that's true. He's like being swamped with it and he finds it very funny. It's quite funny. Yeah. That's why this works best as comedy, though.
00:27:32
Speaker
because it's always kind of funny to see someone be slightly annoyed by someone else being super enthusiastic.
00:27:40
Speaker
Yeah. Maybe that's why it slips into romance then, because if rom-com goes together quite often, I think we've spoken about this before, like more rom, less calm, et cetera. I think most things like described as a rom-com might not necessarily be very calm, but they're very rom, but they seem to go together. They play for laughs in platonic ones as well. Yeah, definitely. Basically all the ones we've mentioned. And also I had another one here. Did you guys ever watch Morning Glory?
00:28:05
Speaker
with Rachel McAdams and Harrison Ford. It's about she's a producer at a like failing morning TV show and she needs to find someone to replace one of her anchors and Harrison Ford is this like he's supposed to be this like Pulitzer winning amazing journalist who basically hasn't done anything for like five years but technically is still on contract so if they ask him to do something he has to do it
00:28:25
Speaker
And he's super grumpy and like refuses to do it and just like is a complete nuisance where she's like a sort of Labrador, like desperately trying to get this thing going. And it was like, she's like, I can do it. I can save the show. But it works really well. And a lot of Harrison Ford's most recent, more recent roles are him being very, very grumpy. Yeah. He's been a bit tight cast for that kind of thing, probably from Star Wars.
00:28:48
Speaker
I think it's just easy for him, right? Yes, because he is grumpy. That's true. He is grumpy in that. Could you argue Chewbacca's sunshine? Maybe. I can't hear what he's saying, but I feel the vibe. I think that's true. Have you not seen the behind the scenes thing? Yeah, when they're yelling at what he's saying. He literally says the words.
00:29:08
Speaker
That's so funny. Um, I had one debatable one. So I wonder what you guys think about this Hermione and Ron.
00:29:20
Speaker
Oh, I can see that. Which is which though, actually? No, no, Ron's the grumpy one. Oh, I thought Hermione was the grumpy one. That's why I was asking, I wasn't sure. I was like, there's something. Maybe I got this backwards. Because in my mind, Hermione's the like... Optimistic one.
00:29:38
Speaker
I think it's like, actually what I'm doing here is I'm collating two different things. I'm collating by the book, loves to play by the rules and doesn't want to be in trouble with Grumpy, whereas that's not necessarily true. I think they're actually both different characters in the books and they are in the movies. That's true. So I don't know actually. Hermione is a bit more unhinged in the books.
00:30:06
Speaker
She's a bit more, yeah, I kidnapped someone and put them in a jar. What's wrong with that? She's way more fun. Yeah, she's psychotic. Too powerful, yeah. I hope they do that version of her in the new series. Yeah, that'll be interesting. We've got to wait for season five for that one though.
00:30:25
Speaker
Maybe not then, with a mind in a run. Maybe they have too many, they go across. Also, maybe it's because that's part of a trio. There's the three of them there. That's true. It's all shared between
Character Depth and Conflict
00:30:39
Speaker
all three. They all have moments of grumpiness and moments of sunshine. Yeah, that's true. I think Harry's probably more neutral than both of them. They almost play a conscience for him in a lot of the decisions.
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah, he's quite well balanced as a character in terms of he's not one or the other, I don't think. Yeah, he goes both ways. Yeah. But I think that's when you have like a trio, we're getting off topic here, but when you have like a trio of characters, I think that's a really, really good, like it's really healthy to have your protagonist will be kind of more kind of centrist than the other two.
00:31:11
Speaker
Yeah. And every time there's a decision, you always have the opportunity to have the other two characters conflict. And then the tension arises from which way, which of his friends, you know, which of the friends is the main character going to lean towards. And that's really interesting. Yeah, definitely.
00:31:26
Speaker
traps and pitfalls. You kind of, we touched on this before. There is definitely dangers with this one. I don't think there's that many inherently with the genre itself. I think generally, if you to do this, like with any character, you need to have a three dimensional character. If your character is just grumpy for the sake of being grumpy, and there's no reason for it. And then at some point,
00:31:53
Speaker
they stop being grumpy. It's like, okay, well, there's no real arc to this character. You do need to have at least three dimensions to do this. Yeah. You have to be agreed when you start, apart from obviously, you know, some people who don't plot, however, you have to be agreed when you start with a grumpy sunshine character that they are going to develop and get to more towards the center and help the other person get towards the center.
00:32:19
Speaker
There's this really good writing book called The Emotional Theosaurus, I think. Yeah, I've got all of them. It's not that one. It's a green one. I can't think what the title is. But basically it talks about in order to make your character three dimensional, something obviously has to have happened to them. And you call that the wound. And then how does the wound then relate to them later in life? And how does that wound make them act? And that is how you make them three dimensional. So
00:32:48
Speaker
like with Shrek, obviously, people want to kill him. So he's like, automatically like because they think he's ugly. So he thinks no one will ever love me. And so the wound that is I'm a monster. Yeah. And so he automatically is on the defensive and the way that that wound transpires in his life is
00:33:05
Speaker
pushing people away so they can't hurt him first. Yes. I think that's interesting though in terms of the sunshine character because I was just thinking, when I used to watch Shrek, which of course was every Saturday, when I watched Shrek before, I've thought
00:33:20
Speaker
that Donkey being the Sunshine character is interesting because what's happening to him at the beginning at the market is really horrifying. It's just like, oh, boo-hoo me, I get to sit on my own all day, which I enjoy doing anyway. Yeah, people think I'm ugly, but then I scare them all off and laugh and sit in my hot tub full of mud. Whereas Donkey's like being sold. And it's like implied they're going to kill him.
00:33:40
Speaker
And it's pretty horrible, and he's had this horrible life, but he is quite optimistic. So his wound manifests differently as a Sunshine character. I think a lot of the Sunshine characters are probably people pleasers, and they want people to like them. And so when you're given this direct conflict of someone who's grumpy and does not like anybody, the people pleaser will automatically go out of their way to try and make that person like them. And that's probably why they gel so well together, because
00:34:08
Speaker
The people pleaser is hard to get rid of. I love when you have these two characters. I love when, this sounds really weird of me to say, but I think it's a very good resolution for the arc of a very happiest sunshine character.
00:34:25
Speaker
to the way you find out at a certain point and it's like all of this over exuberance this like happiness is them covering up something that's really like affecting them inside like a real tragedy i think that's such a such an interesting and powerful and also like realistic i think this is something that we do in real life you know the
00:34:45
Speaker
It's like, you know, I'm only laughing at this thing because otherwise I'd cry. Yeah, exactly. There's also, there's one, I mean, I was about to say there's one episode of Scrubs that I will never forget. There's about 20 episodes of Scrubs that I will never forget. But there's one with
00:35:05
Speaker
What's his name? Marty McFly. Yeah, the doctor when he comes in. He's this perfect doctor. Everyone loves him. He's the best and JD is getting really jealous because everyone's obsessed with him and then he comes and finds him at the end of the day and he's barely keeping it together and he's washing his hands and then he tells JD, this is the 50th time I've washed my hands now.
00:35:30
Speaker
And you see this very vulnerable part of him where he has his own issues and his own things going on. I think that's so powerful and it's so true to life as well. Absolutely. Yeah, that weight of being perfect all the time.
00:35:45
Speaker
Yeah, it's a really good reveal. Do they do it? I guess a little bit in, oh, I don't know. Are they grumpy or sunshine? So in Zombieland, Woody Harrelson's character. And obviously he loves like smashing up zombies and he cheers whenever he finds a Twinkie. And then obviously you find out later that his son died. Yeah. It's really, really sad. And he's pretending it was a dog that he lost, but actually it was his son. And he kind of manifests depending on the day between being really grumpy or really sunshiney, especially compared to, I think this is saying again of the
00:36:15
Speaker
main character being very nervous, and he's not very nervous. Yeah. But I think he's grumpy. Well, the thing is Woody Harrelson is an excellent actor, and I think he's grumpy, and the moments of his jubilation are him faking jubilation. Whether that's for, I forget the name of Michael, Sarah's character, but whether that's for the other characters or for himself, he's faking, he's lying,
00:36:45
Speaker
You know to who to who whether it's him or the other characters to like I don't know try and feel something will protect himself right exactly yeah above so he's kind of both I would say I was grumpy pretending to be sunshine on occasion when yeah yeah.
00:37:00
Speaker
But this is what I'm talking about. These are the characters that we're talking about where it's like the writers have obviously been like, okay, this is why they are grumpy. This is why they are sunshine all the time. And it's deeper than just, oh, they're just a really happy person.
Episode Wrap-Up
00:37:17
Speaker
It's deeper than the manic pixie dream girl where it's like, oh, she's the perfect woman because she's happy all the time and goofy and makes funny jokes and like never embarrassed. And you're like, it's just not a real person, is it?
00:37:31
Speaker
conclusion. I think it's, I think it's, you know, it's just fun character conflict. It's nothing really, I think.
00:37:41
Speaker
As, as romance goes, you can base a whole book around it. Other genres, it's always going to be, um, I don't know. It's not even a plot thing. It's just a choice to have two characters who, you know, it's like, do I want my characters to be, do I want a kind of buddy cop, um, two characters kind of conflicting, but they are, but they are essentially on the same team. Oh my God. You know what it's kind of like, it's kind of like enemies to,
00:38:10
Speaker
Friends enemies enemies to friends kind of but if we're talking platonic or enemies to lovers if we're talking romance but it's like enemies to x but without But but with with a kind of pre-established thing of like we're not enemies. We know that we're on the same side
00:38:26
Speaker
Yeah. You know, we have to get to this thing together and that's fine. You're just annoying. Yeah. You know what I mean? So enemy of my enemy is my friends to lovers enemy trope. I mean, yeah. Okay. That's amazing. In conclusion, would you guys do it? Yeah.
00:38:48
Speaker
Have you already done it? Probably. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't think I have. I think I do it for a friendship. I don't think I'm a fan of it in a romance. But yeah, friendship for sure.
00:39:00
Speaker
I think that's fair. I think it has to be well done in a romance. I'm trying to think if I do it a little bit in my love life in the apocalypse, but not really. Not to, cause we've discussed, haven't we? Like whether we're confusing it with something else. Yeah. So yeah, I would do it. The two leads in my love life in the apocalypse are both, they're on the sunshine side of the spectrum. Neither of them I would say is particularly grumpy. No, one is anxious though, which is different as we've discussed. Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:29
Speaker
Yeah, but it's the kind of thing where I think lots of writers have done this and haven't even thought about it as a trope. It's like, oh yeah, I just had two characters who had different energy. It would be impossible to watch a show where everyone was like all sunshine all the time. I would watch a show where everyone was grumpy.
00:39:51
Speaker
What do you mean by that? Like, black books. Yeah, no, black books is an amazing example because it's Dylan Morin and Bill Bailey. Yeah, great.
00:40:03
Speaker
They are grumpy and sunshine. Oh my God. It's a whole series of grumpy and sunshine. I love it. Yeah. Amazing. It's the perfect one. Oh, I did have an honorable mention. There's one for the fantasy fans out there. Uh, do you? Brandon. Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:21
Speaker
Caledon and this again, I was like, Caledon and anyone. Because Caledon is like usually grumpy, like a lot of fantasy protagonists. And then he's, first of all, he's like bound to a magical companion called Sil, who is, who is basically Tinkerbell. Tinkerbell, yeah. Is happy and upbeat a lot of the time. And then throughout the book, he also comes into contact with a bunch of the other point of view characters.
00:40:49
Speaker
like Adeline who's the super handsome jock but also really nice upbeat male character and then the Shallan who there's vaguely a love interest with but she's also like funny and whimsical and silly and then there's Wit who's obviously funny. You guys got any other ones we didn't talk about?
00:41:10
Speaker
Yeah, you go. There you go. Sorry. I'm so sorry. Such a people pleaser, such a sunshine. You are the grumpy to my relationship. Yeah, I was thinking of Kvothe from The Name in the Wind. Oh, yeah. And Dana, is it his love and trust? Yeah. I thought she was kind of like a free spirit kind of sunshine thing that occasionally pops into his life. And he
00:41:38
Speaker
is quite grumpy. I think like you were just saying like the main fantasy protagonist. He's definitely grumpy in the like in quotes present day sections. Yeah. I guess he's less grumpy when he's younger. Yeah, I could see it. I don't think it's as like blaringly obvious as some of the ones we talked about. No, I can definitely see that. Yeah.
00:41:57
Speaker
Sorry, Melva, you go. I was just thinking because we're going fancy of Geralt and Dandelion in The Witcher. That's a good one. Yeah, really good one. There's so many that I know I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I do quite like it. But yeah, I think again, that's a platonic one.
00:42:19
Speaker
Or is it read the fan fiction to find out? Yeah, it's everywhere because it's basically for me, it's like borderline, not even really a trope or if it is a trope, it's like you just, it's just, it's just an interesting character combination. And I mean, yeah, it's two ends of a spectrum of a spectrum that almost every character has to be on somewhere.
00:42:47
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's true. So it's nice. If you exaggerate something in a story, it always comes across better, like make your characters as big as possible, right? Exactly. That's why we're telling the story about these characters specifically anyway, right? Yes.
00:43:02
Speaker
Well, I think that about wraps it up. Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melva, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books, as well as the Right and Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.