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S2.E3 - Fake Dating
176 Plays1 year ago
Fake dating and relationships come in more shapes and sizes than any of us realised. It's not just Noah Centineo movies!
- Naomi Gibson, author of Every Line of You, Game Over Girl
- Melissa Welliver, author of The Undying Tower, My Love Life and the Apocalypse
- Jamie Greenwood, creator & host of the Write and Wrong Podcast
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Transcript
Introduction to Tropes
00:00:00
Speaker
Welcome back to the chosen ones and other tropes where I ask two published authors about their favourite tropes and the ones that make them want to cry. Um, you know the Hunger Games? And now... I do know the Hunger Games. I've heard of it. Yeah, you do know them, yeah. Essentially what the duzzies do to him is not parenting, it's child abuse. Yeah. Yeah, beautiful. Man's playing a G-nanny as well. He might be familiar to you.
00:00:26
Speaker
It's not as fun though, is it? It's not tragic, isn't it? It's too refreshing. It isn't Neville, it's just not. It's never going to be him. She shouldn't have done that. Jamie's just trying to make Neville happen. I just don't have the main character energy that you guys have.
00:00:46
Speaker
You could say that you guys are fake dating my podcasts. Okay.
Exploring Fake Dating in Romance
00:00:52
Speaker
Let's talk about fake dating. Um, it's this is another one where, and we're going to get this a lot because we're doing a whole season of romance tropes, but there's so much crossover with other tropes, which we're going to do episodes on.
00:01:04
Speaker
Um, but fake dating is, uh, super fun. Having spent one minute on the internet, looking it up, I was like, Oh, this is used in so many movies and TV shows and, and, and there's not as many books as I thought, but there's, there's a good number of, um, a good number of books, uh, involved with fake dating. Um, I don't really need to spell it out, but we'll go for anyway. It's the beginning of the episode. Um, fake dating where two characters sort of pretends to the world that they are dating, even though there's not actually
00:01:34
Speaker
in theory, any feelings or anything between them, they're just doing it because they both have something to gain by presenting as being in a relationship together. Let's throw it over to the real hosts of my podcast. Melissa, where are you at effect dating?
00:01:53
Speaker
Uh, um, I quite, I quite like fake dating because I don't think it's like a main character energy trope in romance. So I think you can do fake dating and have lots and lots of different plot lines. Yeah. Whereas other, some other ones we've talked about, you have to go through one or two endings or a specific thing. Whereas I quite like fake dating because it's basically how you open the story and then you can kind of go rogue with the story. Cause obviously with fake dating, usually they're pretending and then they fall in love. Right. Like that's the usual.
00:02:22
Speaker
In fact, I can't even think of any, but that doesn't happen. So I quite like that. So I like it because I think it's just a vehicle to get the story started. And it's always fun anyway. And there's lots of like room for comedy and obviously rom-com. Very popular combination. I just wanted to quickly shout out the proposal.
00:02:43
Speaker
Yes, because it has my favorite thing in it because she has to fly, if anyone's not seen it, she has to fly to the Frankfurt Book Fair in order to stop Don Delilio being taken to Viking, Don Delilio, Don Delilio. He's about to be poached by Viking, so she has to fake date her assistant in order to... So she basically go to prison almost in order to... To protect her author.
00:03:07
Speaker
And it always cracks me up. I absolutely love it. It's the most ridiculous reason for fake dating and the whole fake dating one. I absolutely love it. But we don't find it properly. I hope you're listening. I mean, she also risks like going to prison. Yeah. She's literally breaking the law. I'm sure Don, I've only read one of Don's books at university. I'm sure he's like really good. He's worth it. Wow.
00:03:34
Speaker
I mean, going back to what you were saying about how it kind of sets up the, because you have lots of things going on around it. I think there is something like we talked about enemies to lovers and how that kind of forces the writer to create two very individual characters who have at least something in opposition so they have conflict. This is a really convenient trope, I think, for a writer because
00:03:59
Speaker
It almost always, I mean, I don't think it has to, I mean, you can definitely work around this, but it most of the time is intertwined with the main kind of whatever the A and B storylines are. It's because like both of the people in the relationship are trying to, you know, they're trying to get something out of this fake relationship and that's usually tied into whatever their like wants and needs and goals are.
00:04:26
Speaker
So it does help set up like the rest of the plot for the story. I see this one as, so I was trying to break down the difference between a trope and a recipe, right? And stick with me here, right? So a trope I would say is probably something that is like a stereotype and that you see it, you can see it coming a mile off, you know what it's going to be and you're like, yeah, I've seen that before, but here it's done a little different, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:04:54
Speaker
But a recipe, I think the fake relationship is more of a recipe because the setup is always different, even though it's the same. You get these two characters who have to come together in a relationship in order to achieve the goal.
00:05:11
Speaker
But other than that, it's different every time.
Fake Dating in High School Rom-Coms
00:05:15
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, and I think that's why- So you have different goals, right? Yeah, and I think that's why it works because it's not necessarily like, you know, enemies to lovers, I think you're going to get these two people who are butting heads and they finally come together. But with a fake relationship, you can form a fake relationship for so many different reasons. And I think that's why it's more of a recipe and
00:05:37
Speaker
Yeah, it works. And it's so diverse. And like you were saying, you can take it wherever you want. So yeah, I'm a fan. True. My conflict there is that I think a lot of the, I'm just looking through the list of things that I've got down and there's so many like high school teen rom-coms that do this. And I think it's much more of a trope with those.
00:06:02
Speaker
Possibly. Because they do tend to kind of blur basically the beginning of Noah Centineo. Is that how we pronounce it? Yeah, that's how we're doing it. The beginning of his career is essentially like to all the boys I love before. Yeah. So me. Sarah Burgess is a loser, the perfect date.
00:06:21
Speaker
So maybe it's more tropey in YA then, because I was looking broadly at adult movies, I guess, and I think they're quite different in adult movies. Like you've got the proposal where she wants a green card, but then you've got... She's crazy. Have you guys seen We're the Millers? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the fake relationship as well. That's true. It's kind of a bit masked there by a different
00:06:48
Speaker
That's a great, that's like the C-plot, which is really nice in that way. That's first like a sort of comedy heist, hijinks thing. And the romance is very much a C-plot that kind of is vaguely there in the background. Yeah. And then you've got something like Bridgerton season one, where there is sort of like a mutual convenience that they pretend to be together. That's the classic, right? That's the classic. But yeah, so I don't know, maybe it's
00:07:18
Speaker
Okay, let's go with the recipe metaphor because I've identified, staying on metaphor here, the ingredients of the recipe. I like it. Because I think with this, there's so many, especially obviously movies are a shorter form of storytelling, so you will get more of the recurring beats.
00:07:39
Speaker
But you'll get this in books as well. There's a few things which I think always, there's like setups which always happen within fake dating scenarios. So the first one I had, which I think probably happens in all of them, is at some point after they've agreed to do like, okay, we're going to pretend to be together for whatever reason.
00:08:02
Speaker
there'll be a scene where they'll be together usually quite early on or around the middle and someone will ask them, okay, so how did you guys meet? And like, or like, what's, you know, what do you, what do you like about each other? And that'll be like the turning point of where it's like, oh, this is an agreement. We don't really know each other or we don't really
00:08:21
Speaker
like each other all the time and that's the turning point where they like have to kind of say something they say they have to say something nice yeah but then it turns out like they accidentally sort of say something genuine and they're like oh i actually do think that about you and that happens in like five adamsan movies
00:08:42
Speaker
I hadn't thought about them so I'm good for these. It's like blended, just go with it. Oh yeah, blended. Blended's the best, I love it. Oh yeah. Him and Drew Barrymore, perfect. Iconic. Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you. No, that was it. I would just think that's like a core setup. Yeah. Yeah. Which always happens in these and like... It's a nice turning point, isn't it? Where they realise that actually they're like each other.
00:09:07
Speaker
As a writer, Melissa, you must, as a planner, this must be like such a like perfect, Oh, okay. This is, this is that moment. Amazing. So now the trajectory goes this way. Like it's, it's set so much up in the wake of it.
00:09:19
Speaker
Yeah. And then especially when, when you're like really serious plot like me, like a psychopathic plotter, um, it's really good because it means that like you can think, Oh, okay. I have sort of, you know, that has to be still that midpoint. So, you know, you've got maybe 10,000 words to have some other cute tropes in let's go through the romance list and see what else I can pop in as they're getting to know each other, which is really nice. I know there's like a big beat coming up and it's just enjoyable from a reader perspective as well. In the same way we've talked about other tropes that, you know, it's coming, but like it's enjoyable when it happens.
00:09:49
Speaker
Yeah, and this one ties into so many other tropes. A lot of the time there's like, well, there's almost always forced proximity with this. Bad communication can be a classic in this one where it's like either them being together is a bad communication or
00:10:08
Speaker
uh it's a result of other things like them not communicating their feelings with their friends or their like families and stuff that has forced them because a lot of this trope is um they'll be they'll be fake dating to like appease um parental figures or like a society to like look at them i think it's in
00:10:29
Speaker
Is it love hypothesis?
Motivations Behind Fake Dating
00:10:32
Speaker
There's a fake dating in that between a senior PhD student and like a junior PhD student. I think the whole motivation for the older PhD student who's the guy is that he basically is trying to get a grant for his research, but the high ups who give him the grant
00:10:50
Speaker
worried that he's going to leave and go to a different lab or something. He thinks if he's in a relationship, it'll make him appear as if he's more likely to stay, which is a pretty acrobatic justification. But you know what I mean? It can be these outside influences that people are trying to
00:11:16
Speaker
project, the reason they get into these relationships, which is bad communication. It's like he's not... Just go and say to them, listen guys, I'm going to stay here. Give me the grant. You know what I mean?
00:11:28
Speaker
But I suppose, are you thinking about, I suppose a lot of the examples we come up with, I've not actually read the love hypothesis, so I don't know if they do it in this, but we're thinking about when both characters have a reason for doing the thing and they talk to each other and go, okay, let's, enemy of my enemy is my friend, let's decide to do this thing. Whereas I was thinking about, you know, how to lose a guy in 10 days. They're fake dating, but they haven't told each other why they're fake dating.
00:11:54
Speaker
I know how to lose a guy. No, do I? No, I don't think... No, no, no. Do you know how? Do you know how to do it? I don't like you. No, we talked about it in enemies to lovers episode. Yeah. No, that's Matthew McConaughey, right? And he was in like five movies and all the same. And I don't remember them. Yeah.
00:12:13
Speaker
where she's writing an article about how to lose a guy in 10 days. So like that's her motivation for the relationship. And then he, someone made a bet with him that he couldn't get her to fall in love with him in 10 days. So they haven't told each other and they're not working together, which lots of other ones are kind of working together, aren't they? On like some sort of goal, like, oh, well, if I fake date you, then people get off my back. And if you fake date me, then you'll get this. Whereas in that one, they don't tell each other why they're doing it. True.
00:12:42
Speaker
That's a really interesting, like, case for this then, isn't it? Yeah. Which I like. And they sort of know what the other one's doing, so that's the whole point is that they met with him to get it with her, to do this falling in love thing with her, because they know that she writes all these articles and is a bit of, like, a man-hating, terrible person. Yeah, he doesn't know, but they choose her because of that, right? Yeah, because his friends know, and then her team
00:13:09
Speaker
just kind of arbitrarily chooses him. I think they pick him basically because he looks like a jock in the bath. Yeah. That's a really good example there. Thanks. Going back to the, you're welcome, I guess. Going back to the tropes though, like I said, lots of tropes starting with this. Back when you get into forced proximity and then like with Hadley's guy in 10 days,
00:13:34
Speaker
uh enemies or haters or sometimes like mild actually often like mild dislikers to lovers like there's usually it's not like it's rare that it's like they're friends and they start fake dating usually it's like they either don't know each other or they're just kind of not interested in each other or they just run in completely different circles and something like pretty woman
00:13:55
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Where he's obviously like, you know, a wealthy successful and she's, you know, not so much. Yeah. Down and outs type thing. Or she's all that. I was thinking of she's all that. Yeah. Yeah. That's quite toxic. That's the classic high school dare. I bet you can't, like he's the most popular guy in school and it's like, I bet you can't make
00:14:20
Speaker
Look how ugly she is. She wears glasses. I know. I'm so sad. I hate those. Like, the Duff was like a more modern version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He designated ugly fat friends. They did a fully modern version called He's All That. I wanna watch that. Ollie won't watch it with me. No, you don't. I've watched it. We watched it so you don't have to. Okay. But it's cute that she's in it. She's the mum. She is. Yeah. Oh, okay. Which is funny. That is funny.
00:14:46
Speaker
But those are those are just like so those that's the classic that's where I think it's fully the trope and it's like that happens so much in the teen ones. That's the Noah The Noah ones yeah to all the boys I love before the difference with the she's all that one though is that she doesn't know she's she's part of a fake relationship
00:15:03
Speaker
Oh, that's true. That's why it's even more toxic, which is a trope. But yeah, that's why it's like problematic there. Like she thinks she's, you know, she's finally got some, I don't know, some stuff going for her. She's got a really shit time of it at home and she's, you know, coming out of her shell a bit and exploring life.
00:15:24
Speaker
with a capital L and then this guy like shits all over her. So yeah, we don't know. He does fall in love with her in the end. Yeah, eventually, but like he doesn't deserve her. They shouldn't have done. It's like she has to convince him and it's like she's way better than you. So do that in After as well, which is interesting because After started as fan fiction.
00:15:46
Speaker
The first after yes it's harry stiles fan fiction and the part of the first after is essentially harry stiles but they change all the names of course for the movies and when they publish the books anna tod's books and yeah that's that's a bet that he's put on even the audience interestingly.
00:16:04
Speaker
aren't letting on really like you get a little bit of it like oh go on what what do you think about this well i think she seems a bit frigid blah blah blah and then it kind of cuts and then later you find out it's this bet now don't get me wrong it's very it is very guessable but it's a bet i think most people would guess however you aren't technically told it's kind of like a thing at the end which is interesting because it was written as um like serialized fan fiction so you wonder if she maybe thought of that later
00:16:28
Speaker
I don't know I've not read the fan fiction I've seen the like amazon movie whoever thinks maybe yeah and the other going back to the the ingredients of the recipe the other staples scene.
00:16:44
Speaker
So you have the one where someone asks them how they met and they're forced to kind of say nice things about each other. And then they're like, oh, maybe he does like me, or maybe she doesn't like, or whatever. And then the other one that I think is quite common is later on, and this happens in this, they really do this big in how to lose a guy in 10 days.
00:17:04
Speaker
where one of the fake daters will be away from the other. Sometimes they're like within eye shot or like in the same room but they're out of audible distance and they'll be talking to someone else who will say something like mean or offensive about the other person and then they'll like kick in their defensive reaction and that will like
00:17:28
Speaker
It will be like their moment of realization where they're like, oh no, I do really have feelings for this person and like in so much that I'm willing to like tell my friend to shut up and like stop saying that thing and like that he's wrong and challenge him and stuff.
00:17:40
Speaker
Yeah, that definitely is one. And to all the boys I've loved before, and also they usually like to have you overhear the first part of the conversation and it sounds bad. And then as soon as they run off crying from the toilets, they go, actually, I disagree with you about the thing you just said. And they're like, oh, no, you didn't see that they were defending you. If people who love to all the boys I've loved before, it's the scrunchy,
00:18:02
Speaker
his ex-girlfriend takes the scrunchie from him that Lana Condor has given him. Yeah. And it's like a big thing and he doesn't want to give her the scrunchie because he knows it's mean, but he's not quite, that one is that he's not quite there yet. So he's not strong enough to say, don't take the scrunchie. Cause like, obviously that's really dramatic scene. When she takes the scrunchie, it's like super hard for him to not let this tiny woman have the scrunchie, even though he's a gigantic man, but she'll- Oh no. Drama attention.
00:18:30
Speaker
Yeah, and then obviously the other person takes it, Lana Conville's character takes it like way more like to heart and personally than it ever should be. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just as crunchy and everyone just needs to calm down. It's not even that nice as crunchy. I agree. There, I said it. I said it. I spoke the truth.
00:18:52
Speaker
It plays in so many of the same elements where characters think like lovers to haters. It's that thing where the characters think that they know each other or like because of like a prerequisite, like they've judged each other before they've made each other a lot of the time. And then it's the fake relationship is like, oh, actually, this is not the person that I thought they were at all and actually know I really like them.
Escapism and Communication in Fake Dating
00:19:16
Speaker
Yeah, they have preconceived ideas of each other, don't they? Exactly. Yes, that's so true. And they're more 3D than they even put out themselves. Find out all these secret things about each other. Oh, I do really like it. You know what? This is persuading me actually. I do really like it. It's very friendly. It's very friendly. I think it's one of the more comedic ones as well. Yeah.
00:19:36
Speaker
Like, it's such a comedy recipe, I think. That is true, yeah. It's a very chill one. There is, like I said, that's crunchy, manufactured tension. But I don't mind, because I don't actually want it to be that tense. Like, I'm not watching a battle scene. Yeah, you don't watch it for that. Yeah, exactly. Yep.
00:19:50
Speaker
You know, the other thing is it's, it's, um, it's really unrealistic. Like no, I don't know anyone who has ever been in a fake relationship. Like maybe is like, you know, for about five seconds, then I'm like, I don't know why I said that. And then like to someone they didn't know, but like to commit to a fake relationship, which will go on for days, weeks. I agree with you.
00:20:15
Speaker
It's so unrealistic that I think it's easy to so like remove ourselves from it and just enjoy the kind of nonsense and shenanigans of it because you don't believe that it's a real situation that can happen. Yeah, that's very true. I think in older storylines and obviously also historically like say pre
00:20:34
Speaker
section 28 in this country, blah, blah, blah. I think you did have a few more beard, as they used to be called, relationships where it's, say, a queer character who doesn't want to come out, so they're fake dating in order to... And that maybe
00:20:50
Speaker
I could understand, and obviously I have heard of that happening in real life, where people would say got married to hide a particular sexuality for maybe safety reasons. But apart from that, in the silly sense that we're talking about, absolutely not. Like that would never work. That would be ridiculous. Yeah. Especially, isn't it into all the boys? I love before she says, no kissing is like on her contract list. Yeah. And he's like the best looking boy in school.
00:21:20
Speaker
And it's like, he's just not kissing him, but he is like putting his hand in her pocket and grabbing her bum, but no kissing, not loud. That's America all over though, I think. No, you can put certain things on the page. Like, you can put, like, so I read this horror book, right? And everyone died really horribly, but no one said like a swear word.
00:21:43
Speaker
Oh yeah, there's really weird things that you are allowed to. You can have someone shooting someone else, but you're not allowed to show the blood and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Bloodless shots only. Like the Hunger Games when people got stabbed, but all the swords came away clean.
00:22:01
Speaker
Fine, okay. Guys, the Hunger Games, because we can't go an episode without talking about the Hunger Games. Fake dating. Katniss and pizza. Oh my gosh, of course, it's so obvious. Yeah, I'd actually forgotten that, you're so right. Wow, it's like blinding me obviously. They love it. I suppose that's a bit more serious and not very comedic. Yeah, that's the least comedic one. I can't think of another one that's not funny.
00:22:27
Speaker
Yeah. That's funny. Yeah. It's a tricky one. She's done it again. Yeah. We should just do an episode on the Hunger Games at some point, like the Hunger Games special. Pick it apart. We should. We can do it when the prequel comes out.
00:22:43
Speaker
Jamie, you're famous, invites Suzanne Collins on. We'll talk to her about it. Oh yeah, I'll just call Sue's on the phone. If you go, that'd be great. Let's get back onto this podcast right now and get out of our daydreams. What do you guys think the... I mean, I think we're all kind of on board with this. We're all kind of enjoying it. I was thinking about what do you think the fascination with the trope is? Like, what do you think it is that people really love? What is it you guys like about it?
00:23:11
Speaker
I think what we just said, it's such an easy chill watch, but also it's not realistic to real life, so it's still escapism, isn't it? Yeah. But it's close enough. It could happen. Yeah, absolutely. It's a good what if, I think.
00:23:28
Speaker
Yeah. It's a nice one to put yourself in the shoes of as well, especially when you're a teenager. You fancy someone, but you don't want it to be an actual serious relationship because you're a teenager and don't really know what you're doing. Surely it's like the ultimate fantasy to be in this fake relationship. You can kind of test the waters and then they fall madly in love with you, so it's fine. Yeah, that's so true. I can't have fun to see. Because it takes all the pressure off.
00:23:51
Speaker
There's no, like, oh, I wonder if they like me. I like them, but what if I put myself out there and they reject me? It's just... Exactly. There's no pressure. Yeah, you're right. You can be yourself. At any point, say. I was only joking. It's just a joke. It's just a prank, man. I wasn't really going to kiss you. It's because we're doing the fake dating trope.
00:24:12
Speaker
But equally, what's really interesting, I thought, as well was thinking about these relationships. And let's go back to all the boys I loved before. She draws up a contract. The communication in a lot of these fake dating relationships is so much better than some of the communication that happens in the, in quotes, real, fictional relationships. Because the way it's structured, there is like, OK, well, these are the rules.
00:24:41
Speaker
Obviously, when both of them are in on it, and they're both consenting to it, it's like, these are the rules. Don't do this, this, and this. I won't do this, this, and this. And they're like, okay, I agree to doing your thing. And do you agree to doing my thing? The contract, I mean, the fact that she literally draws up a contract is hilarious. The consent is real, to be fair. Absolute kings and queens of consent.
00:25:04
Speaker
Exactly. I mean, talking about it from a writing perspective again, it structures itself so nicely because, you know, we had that first, we had that first, um, staple scene that I mentioned where someone asked them to say something, basically say something nice about the other one. They say something nice. Then you have the next one where it's like they've starting to think that they do actually have feelings for each other and they'll defend one another when someone says something bad. And then because of the kind of way that the tension, the tension is just a sort of,
00:25:34
Speaker
upwards thing because it'll be until the tension is based usually around like the relationship being exposed or one of them achieving the goal before the other thus ending the relationship and you know this that the other also various things in between but the tension generally just starts low and just gradually gets higher until the point where they both say oh no I do have feelings for you let's be in a relationship and that's where the story ends you don't
00:25:58
Speaker
see anything after that really. You don't see the relationship. It's just the beginning of the relationship. Yeah. It's just the knowledge. Yeah. That's so true. Yeah. It's just the knowledge that they are together now and it's enough. Is it slow burn though? Cause sometimes it's like, cause you have that, it's a slow buy in, isn't it? I think that's the same. Yeah. I guess. Yeah. I dunno. It's slow burn anything where it's just like the, the, the, the duration of the story is that they're only together at the end.
00:26:28
Speaker
I guess not. Only when they accept they have feelings for each other and everyone is consenting mutual relationship by the end because they could be together. They're already in because they have the contract as we just did.
00:26:39
Speaker
So basically what we're saying is if you're going to do this, you need a contract. It's true, actually. You do pretty much always need a contract. Even when it's like a bet, like she's all that, et cetera, they have a contract. Like him and his friends have this contract. Oh, it has to be by prom that you do this thing. There's always a contract. In Pretty Woman, they have a contract and she's like, no kissing because she's a sex worker. There's a contract. Oh my God. I'd never thought of it like that. It's always transactional. There's always a contract.
00:27:09
Speaker
That's the same because he's going to pay her as long as they get the weed over the border. He also lies to them about how much they're all being paid. Well, yeah, but I mean, that's because he's getting paid like way. In fact, the son, the boys, the guy does it.
00:27:27
Speaker
So pure. Will Poulter is it? Yeah. Will Poulter. Who's now absolutely shredded and about to become a God powered superhero in Marvel. Here's another good one. Cruel Intentions. Interesting. Yeah. Which is a toxic one, but it's toxic framed as being toxic.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, they know they're toxic. Yeah. It's not going to say it's not romanticizing it. Yeah. It's like, no, no, this is toxic. And like he, his arc is that he realizes it's toxic. Yeah. What's her face still gets burnt though. Uh, not Reese Witherspoon, the other one. Sarah Michelle Gala. No, no, sorry. The one that the other one, the other one, Sarah Michelle Gala makes out with. I can't remember her name.
00:28:22
Speaker
She's in Legally Blonde as well, and I can't think of any. She gets burned. True. Summer Blair. Summer Blair, thank you. Thank you. That was a good round of thought. And I also realized basically every sitcom has featured at least one episode of this or ongoing ones like in Brooklyn Nine-Nine, Amy and Jake's, the beginning of their romance is a fake dating episode.
00:28:52
Speaker
Oh, yeah, it is. And that's when he realizes he likes her. That's such a good show. And then a new girl, Nick and Jess, starts off as a fake dating thing. Yeah. Because they're a wedding, I think, and his ex is there. And so she pretends to be his girlfriend. Yeah. And I'm sure like friends in Seinfeld and I'm pretty sure all the big ones have at some point done it either in like one episode or like an arc kind of thing. Yeah. Because it's so it's such an easy like, oh, this is a fun thing that we haven't done yet.
00:29:21
Speaker
People love it. Would you guys do it? I wouldn't do it because it's not dark enough for me. It's too wholesome. Sorry.
00:29:38
Speaker
It's not enough emotional damage to light my fire. Oh, I would. I've not done it yet, obviously, but I totally would. I never really thought about it before. No, because you like it, it's really plotty. Yeah, it's good mutual tension. I think you could do it. It is, yes. I would enjoy it. Combine it with an apocalypse. Yeah, exactly. My love life in the apocalypse, my fake romance in the apocalypse, the secret.
00:30:06
Speaker
Definitely. You've got to know. Just all the tropes in the apocalypse. Yeah, just do it. Just go through all of them. That's great. That sounds good. Yeah. I'll just call my publisher and say, can you join about 25 bucks in the same series? P.S. There will be more cannibalism. What's my pitch? Here's a list of tropes I printed off the internet. What's my pitch?
00:30:28
Speaker
I thought of some, I know it's not really the same thing, but well, I guess it is fake relationships. It's not romance, but I was thinking that this does occasionally happen outside of romance, like with Suits. Suits is basically an ongoing fake relationship. It is. You mean like Mike and Harvey.
00:30:48
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So Mike doesn't have a law degree. And this is not a spoiler. This is literally first 10 minutes. Yeah, Mike does not have a law degree and Harvey hires him regardless. And they are both basically faking and pretending that he isn't breaking the law every single episode. I was going to say that's so illegal.
00:31:10
Speaker
Yeah, hugely illegal. Wow. Okay. And that's the whole, but it's fake relationship. It's not fake dating, but it's fake relationship. Oh, I like that. Maybe I would write, that sounds cool actually, doing it as like a fake friendship as
Fake Relationships in Non-Romantic Contexts
00:31:22
Speaker
well. Yeah. I like that. There's more, there's more interest in that for me, I'll be honest. What can you, what can you fake it doing?
00:31:29
Speaker
And then we get the Harvey and Mike fanfic. She takes it over the line. You can make anything romance if you try hard enough. Okay, let's talk about problematic. Do we, I mean, there's, you can make anything problematic.
00:31:51
Speaker
but I don't think there's, there's some things that I can see where there's an issue here, but as long as both people, and we've discussed that there's extensive, you need a lawyer to be in a fake relationship, it sounds like, because there are extensive contracts between the two participants, but as long as they're like communicating, as long as they're both, they both know what they are consenting to, I don't think there's any real issue. There's no, it's, it's hard to find anything really problematic within that relationship other than like,
00:32:20
Speaker
their own issues with like not, you know, opening up or like being able to engage properly with each other. But I think a lot of fictional fake, like I said, a lot of them have better communication than real couples. They're like real fictional couples.
00:32:37
Speaker
Yeah, that's very true. I think the only ones that may be a bit more... I remember the first time I watched Pretty Woman, which of course was like on Channel 5 on a Sunday when I was probably about 10, like too young to watch it. I remember thinking... Were you like, what does she do for a living? She's so pretty. Can you explain? I do think it can be problematic when there's a power struggle like that. So when we're talking about high school, yeah, okay, maybe it's like the best looking boy in the school versus some absolutely
00:33:05
Speaker
ugly horrible girl who's wearing glasses is so ugly because her glasses are like so big. There's a huge power struggle, but that's not really. They're both at school. Whereas obviously a pretty woman, he's a high powered businessman. She is a sex worker who's really struggling and trying to help her friends and stuff. And there is it when they have the black moment where they fall out.
00:33:25
Speaker
basically, and she sort of goes off. He does use, like, the way he sort of throws Casa aside because she's a sex worker, so kind of outside of society isn't very fun. But apart from that, yeah, in schools, it's fine because they're all the same. Like, they're all just kids, so it doesn't really matter. I think that setup for Pretty Woman, though, is similar in She's All That because both female characters sort of look to the male character to rescue them.
00:33:56
Speaker
To be fair, when she's all that, doesn't she, isn't she always, she's like go away for a long time and she doesn't want anything to do with it. That's true. She just wants to sit in her basement in pain. Yeah. Okay. And then she eventually buys in. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But pretty woman, she is looking to be rescued basically, I think.
00:34:14
Speaker
I mean, arguably in Pretty Woman, she is just as he does his business. It is to start with a business transaction. So she's thinking, I've just done a really good business deal with my business associate, Richard Gere. She was going to give me loads of money for doing very specific things. And he does exactly the same to his business associates. And that's why she gives him advice when he's on the phone to his business associates. I think it starts off that way, but maybe she falls into the trap of he can save me. Have you guys seen the wedding date?
00:34:45
Speaker
No, it's Debra. No, it's Debra Messing. I think that's the wedding singer you're thinking of. The wedding singer, yeah. The wedding date is where Debra Messing pays for a guy to be her date to her ex's wedding. That is basically the similar setup in that you're hiring someone who is in that sort of field.
00:35:04
Speaker
Um, but it's like, obviously it's a guy and they flipped it. Um, and I think that's the perfect date as well with Noah. Oh, does he do it in that as well? He sets up an app where basically he'll be, he'll be your date. Yeah. And he'll be the perfect date to any event. I think that possibly does it better than pretty women. Um, yes, because they, they, they gendered it, but.
00:35:27
Speaker
Yeah. More modern, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's, I think it's coming back in because Jennifer Lawrence is in that new, no hard feelings that's going to be coming out of the trailer.
Upcoming Films Featuring Fake Dating
00:35:37
Speaker
Definitely going to be fake dating, right? Cause they're like, Oh, our son's really shy. Yeah. And you basically date him. Yeah. That looks really funny. And it's very naughties. Like it just feels like it's coming back. You know, rom coms, rom coms are like back, right? Because it feels that way. Uh, ghosted is about to come out as well. Yes. Anna De Almas and Chris Evans.
00:35:56
Speaker
Yes. Yeah, well, she's a spy. Yeah, that's like a gender flip. That's a good gender flip. Yeah. It's like you've heard of Girl Meets Guy, now it's Boy Meets Spy, I think it's that. Yeah, the byline. Totally going to be all over that. Going back to problematic stuff, there is, I think the relationship itself isn't necessarily an issue. I mean, they're only really hurting themselves, which is fine. But there is also the case that
00:36:23
Speaker
they are lying to everyone around them, often their families and like sometimes for their families, like sometimes these relationships are to appease their like parents or whoever it is, or they're like to be seen as something in school. That I think is the unhealthy part. Yeah. Where it's like you are actively lying to society. Yeah, it's the fact that you're trying to promote an image because you don't want to show the truth and the truth isn't that bad.
00:36:50
Speaker
especially when it's like a um like a dare or a challenge like in She's All That or How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days and it's kind of like so your motivation resists was your motivation was just I dare you and it's like I don't want to lose the dare that's quite poisonous really isn't it yeah you're like playing with someone's feelings here
00:37:09
Speaker
Yeah, not even getting any money out of it. No, exactly. Exactly. Right. There's no, yeah, there's no contracts. There's no, I guess those ones, but those two that I just mentioned though, um, how to lose grand 10 days is slightly more slightly like more, um, I don't say justified, but
00:37:29
Speaker
slightly more acceptable because they're both doing it to each other. But in terms of that, she doesn't know. And how to do this guy in 10 days, like they don't, you know, if they weren't both doing a similar thing, they don't know that they're being used by one another. Like she's that she doesn't know that he's just been dead today. Yeah. Like how offensive is that? It's really offensive. When you're like, Oh, you only went out with me because of a because of a dare. And then they're like, Yeah, but I really like you now. And I'm like, Well,
00:37:57
Speaker
Give me a shirt. Okay. Great. So you're saying I am ugly, but my personality is great. Yeah, you got to know me. Great. Thank you. Because it was about what was on the inside once you took the glasses off. You could look past my hideous exterior. Now I've got a curling iron and taken my glasses off.
Conclusion: The Fun of Fake Dating
00:38:18
Speaker
Fake relationships. In conclusion, what do you guys think?
00:38:23
Speaker
I still like them. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. I still like them. I think they're fun. Yeah. I think they're fun. More fun than toxic. Yeah. Yeah. I think you have to try to be toxic with these. I guess maybe because they're always just in comedies other than the Hunger Games. Yeah. Super serious Hunger Games, fake dating. Fake dating rom-com of all time.
00:38:46
Speaker
But yeah, they're all in comedies. They're great. I would write one, but it's a kind of thing where I wouldn't base something around it. But if I had a structure, if I had a story where I was like, hey, this could be really funny in a fake relationship. Out of all the tropes that we talked about, right? This is probably the only one where it's definitely an A story. Like I think it's hard to fit it into something as a B story.
00:39:09
Speaker
Well, it's, yeah, at minimum it's, it's tied to the A story. Yeah, exactly. Like the A story is, because their motivations have to be tied into the relationship. Yeah, exactly. So I think that's probably why.
00:39:22
Speaker
Plots itself really, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. It's probably more going to be a romance than like a fantasy. I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. No wonder Naomi doesn't want to use it. Exactly. It's too plotty. I already know what's going to happen though. Nymis would go off the rails in like chapter two. Everyone would be murdering each other.
00:39:48
Speaker
Thanks for putting up with our nonsense for another episode. To stay tuned to everything we're up to, you can follow the podcast on all socials at The Chosen Tropes. Follow Melissa at Melova, Naomi at Naomi G. Wright, and Jamie at Jamie X. Greenwood. Don't forget to check out Naomi and Melissa's books as well as the Write in Wrong podcast. Thanks again, and we'll see you on the next trope.