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With Clare Williams
270 Plays5 months ago
This week we have the return of Clare Williams, who contributed three chapters to our book, Have You Ever Wondered? She explains how contemporary questions around race and social justice so quickly point to the gospel when you take the time to wonder about their importance.
Clare Williams is the founder of Real Questions, a platform which explores the intersection of race and faith within the Black British context. She is also a speaker and tutor at The Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics. Prior to her work in apologetics, she was an English teacher in London secondary schools for ten years. Clare has a degree in English Language and Literature from Oxford University, and Masters in Leadership (2012) and Culture, Diaspora and Ethnicity (2021) from the University of London. She is now a doctoral student conducting research in Sociology at The University of Westminster.
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Transcript
Introduction of Claire Williams
00:00:11
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another exciting and packed episode of Pet Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister and I'm joined not by my usual co-presenter, not by Christy Mayer. I am joined by my Solas co-speaker, Steve Osmond. Steve, how are you doing today? Hello, I'm very good. Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. That's always good. And we are joined by a ah phenomenal guest. She is not new to pep talk. She has been on before a wee while back now, but we are joined all the way from the other end of the country this afternoon by Claire Williams. Claire, welcome back to the podcast. Andy, thank you so much. Good to be with you.
00:00:51
Speaker
Well, you wear a variety of hats. You are connected with the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics, the OCCA. You've got Get Real Questions, which is the your own ministry platform. You have your own PhD. You pop up all over YouTube and things, doing interesting things. So I suppose rather than me do a ham-fisted introduction, how would you sum up
Claire's PhD Journey and Real Questions
00:01:12
Speaker
Claire Williams? Who are you and um what is it you do? Andy, I have to say, I probably say I have too many hats. i need to take I need to throw some out. I need to put some down, because just because it gets really busy. but um So yes, I am currently doing my PhD in Sociology. I started that in September last year. I'm looking at questions of race and um
00:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, race and and and women's testimony. I'm also, i yes, I trained with Oca back in 2018 and I'm um a speaker with them as well. It's been a great experience. And for my from my love of apologetics and how it really helped my faith, I then created um an apologetics organisation called Real Questions. It used to be called Get Real, but it's called Real Questions Now. And that kind of looks at objections to the Christian faith and from the Black-British experience. So um just just um trying to provide answers or responses to that those kind of sort specific questions. And last time I was on, we we looked at some of those questions, you know,
00:02:13
Speaker
Christianity, is a white man's religion is the Bible oppressive, of those sorts of things. So um it's been it's been a journey, but I'm i'm enjoying it and i'm great to be on with you today. Yeah, and we'll put a link for folks who want to track you down into the show notes.
Book Contributions and Cultural Openness
00:02:30
Speaker
I feel really guilty now that I combined your old ministry name and the new ministry name and eventually yet another one. I think get real questions. That's great. but Claire, one of the things that we were so grateful at SOLAS was that you got involved in you're one of the contributors to the new book ah that's come out, Have You ah have you Ever Wandered? and um for For listeners who haven't yet come across that book, wherever you've been, ah you know it's designed to be an evangelistic giveaway book. You can give to give to friends to get them thinking about the big questions of life
00:03:00
Speaker
And I suppose before we dive into some of the but chapters that you contributed to, which is some amazing topics, why do you think that right now in the cultural moment that we're in, that asking those kind of wandering, those kind of opening up questions about spirituality, there seems to be something going on in culture that they can, that could be a very productive way into faith conversations. Why is that? what do you What do you see that's going on right now? And why is this valuable? Yeah, the the book is great, and not just because I've written some chapters in it, but I think the concept of the book is really good, in and it's that wandering piece, isn't it? um the we We now know from the 2021 census about um
00:03:37
Speaker
you know more people identifying as spiritual or religious or having no religious affiliation in the UK and um lots I do a lot of work with young people um and this kind of fascination with the supernatural open to the spiritual but maybe not really i aware of what different religions teach or specifically Christianity. I recall the kind of phrase from Tim Keller about we live in a pre-Christian culture because we don't a lot of the time we don't know what the gospel is and I've they've definitely encountered that on campuses as well. So the book is good because it, as you said, invites people to just take a few moments. It's not like an epic novel on the meaning of life, but it is that kind of taster
00:04:23
Speaker
into some some questions that, you know, from time to time, we do think about, we do consider, but because we're working, because we're looking after children, because we're trying to pay our bills, all those sorts of things, we're not able to really to really lean into. And I think this cultural moment is one where there's so much going on, but um people are looking for something more. Yeah, I love that. um From some of the work that I've been doing out on campuses, you know, the CU's at universities, It's really just been something that I wasn't expecting, just to see like the the openness to these more wandering questions. that the
00:05:01
Speaker
the general kind of openness to spirituality that there is um at the moment, which um I really wasn't expecting when I moved over about nine months ago from South Africa. um And so, yeah, I agree completely that this has a real place at the moment with, as you put it, this sort of this cultural moment that we're in. um The book has 30 chapters of which you've written three. um They are Have you ever wondered why black lives matter? Have you ever wondered if your life is worthwhile and have you ever wondered why we long for justice? um So three massive topics and I think I mean we could delve into those ah and for many hours worth of content here but um I would really like for you to maybe just spend a couple of moments and let's start with that first one. um Have you ever wondered why black lives matter? and um That is a massive question and I think
00:05:54
Speaker
one that so many people are just absolutely terrified of even coming near. I mean, it can be so politically charged that you just found so many different rabbit trails. um So it's it's a really hard one to to engage with for many, many people, myself included.
Exploring Black Lives Matter and Justice
00:06:10
Speaker
um But I just love the way that you've tackled it in your chapter. And so if people haven't got the book, the the um subtitle is Finding Everyday Clues to Meaning, Purpose, and Spirituality. So maybe could you explain to us how is it that that question? Have you ever wondered why Black Lives Matter? How does how do we find clues to meaning, purpose and spirituality off the back of that? Or how can we use it to point towards those things? Yeah. um Thank you for that question. I think that, as you said,
00:06:44
Speaker
That question, um have you ever ever wondered why a Black Lives Matter can can be quite a terrifying question and I haven't necessarily solved the matter in um you know the two and a half, four and a half page chapter that we've written. But I think that um whatever your politics, whatever your cultural view, when this is the question that the culture is asking and it's not going away. I don't believe any time soon. and For me, when someone asks this question, and it's obviously very close to my heart being a Black, British woman myself, yeah God is not asking me whether I agree with the the ideas behind the movement or God is not asking me what my politics are. The person, God is asking me to acknowledge where this person is. And I remember I had a friend of mine who went to Black Lives Matter protests um in 2020, and um he's a Christian. He was talking to some and people and he asked them
00:07:40
Speaker
Why are you angry? He's black himself. He asked, why why are you angry? And they said, well, because what happened with George Floyd and started listing all these things. And I was thinking, I'm with you. Right. Yeah. i'm I'm just as just as angry. And then he said, OK, but but why protest? And then he then they were saying, well, we've we've got to make a stand. And then he kept asking basically why. And then the root question that he was able to explain kind of what I lead to in the chapter is that when when we're saying that anybody's lives matter, And in this particular case, Black Lives Matter, we're saying that there is something more to then just being a biological ah machine. There is something more and that justice, that sense of is grounded, that sense of personhood is grounded, um I believe in the truth of the gospel. One of the things I i like, it's a great story, Claire. I think one of the things I i really appreciated was that the way that you handled
00:08:33
Speaker
you know, that chapter so sensitively, I don't think I've actually told kind of Steve this story, but I had a friend, I've got a friend of mine in the States who, who is just on this issue, particularly has got a bit of a beat in his bonnet. And when he saw where this book was coming out and there was that chapter, he sort of, there was a, there was a, a comment to the effect. Oh, really? Do you guys have to go there? And I was like, just wait and have a look. And when the book came out, he wrote to me and went, I'm so sorry, it's brilliant. I love what Claire did because I think he thought we were going to bang some political drum one way or the other. And the way that you took that topic and you looked at some of the realities of racism, which are real and that people are concerned about, but rather than charge it in a political direction to show people the way it opens up.
00:09:11
Speaker
ah into ah into a wider question. And the other comment, someone messaged me on Facebook the other day, you quote Frederick Douglass in that, and someone messaged me to go, I've just gone and bought some of that his writings because I was so intrigued by what Claire quoted. So I love the fact that your book is is a gateway to people who want to then go deeper into some of the issues they can do that. But there's an art, isn't there? I think it is Christians of the way you describe it there. Listen, whatever we think, listen, ask good questions, and then find the the gospel connection, right? that I think the gospel will always stand over and above every culture. okay um The global ah majority doesn't have a monopoly on you know God's vision for our lives and the Western world doesn't have a monopoly on God's vision for our lives. We all are in need desperate need of a saviour and I think that for me as someone who obviously loves ap politics apologetics but ultimately evangelism I think the gospel is good news and so
00:10:12
Speaker
whatever the questions of culture are, I think the gospel will always tell a better story, even if that better story indicts me and I need to change. And um and I think that's one of the unique things about the gospel that whilst we're, and we get this kind of leads into the question, of and another chapter about justice, whilst we're pointing the finger of, you know, we want justice out there, the gospel uniquely makes ah makes us aware of our own sin as well. So it's not just an out there thing, it's an in there in here thing as well. And I think that's the beauty, but also the challenge of the gospel um that we ah we're called. um we yeah Yeah, it just calls us out. It calls us out when none of us escape um the God's judgment. Oh, that's a tough word there. When none of us escape God's judgment and none of us are um too far gone for His grace. It's a beautiful paradox. Amen.
00:11:07
Speaker
um i Speaking about justice, the the third chapter that you wrote is, have you ever wondered why we long for justice? I mean, so again, ah massive, massive topic. You just look around at all of the madness in the world at the moment. And it's just this, I mean, the the cry of our heart is justice. We long for justice. We long to see things put right. When we see people oppressed, there's something in us that just sort of kicks against that. We know intuitively that there's something wrong. um And yeah, you've you've again you've tackled that.
Longing for Justice and Life's Worth
00:11:43
Speaker
um what What would you say i mean if someone is listening and they're wondering, how how can I use justice to point someone to the gospel? um Say they've got you know a couple of minutes, they're chatting with someone, what what kind of ah pointers would you give them when engaging with their friends, families, colleagues?
00:12:03
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's um to to first of all, affirm that sense of of of ah longing for justice. And I think that the the Bible story affirms that too. um But also then to ask and you know the gentle challenge of you know from where does our sense of justice arise? Because um if it is rooted in you know subjective opinions and cultural mores and cultural relativism, those sorts of things, then no one can really say things are objectively unjust or just. But what is it pointing to? And I think ultimately it's pointing to the righteous judge who is God. um I think it's Psalm 84 and 14. It says, righteousness and and justice are the foundation of your throne. um So kind of i think and there is ah I think what the whole book does is kind of getting to the meta question
00:12:58
Speaker
So this is that this is the, people can't think about what my hands are doing. This is the topic here, but actually there's a bigger conversation to be had. And I think um that's what we're trying to do. um You know, the the intuitions are good. The intuitions are i'm ones that I would affirm and and many of us would affirm. And we all feel, as you said, but I think that it's is' is pointing people to, okay, so why in what worldview does this make the most sense? includ Yeah, and I think one of the other themes, I think that runs through the book, doesn't it? You you sort of, you've touched on it there, Claire, is almost that sort of, the the two the the two alternative explanations, right? You know, if atheism is true, if if this is a universe with atoms and particles at rock bottom, some things follow from that.
00:13:47
Speaker
Christianity is true with a God behind the world who who loves us deeply. Some things follow from that. And then as you say, looking at these urges and kind of longings and where do they best sit? And I suppose that brings me to kind of the last the last of the three chapters that you wrote that is probably my favorite of the three that you raised, tough because they're all brilliant. But i'm I love the Is is Your Life Worthwhile chapter, partly because you engage in there with Peter Singer, um who I've dialogued with Peter, and I find him you know fascinating. ah Gentlemen, so so so walk us through the idea there. Why why is that ah why is that ah an intriguing question? The Is Your Life Worthwhile question? And again, what are some sort of thoughts about how we might use that in in conversations with e but our friends?
00:14:31
Speaker
ah think up Ultimately, we're all looking for some kind of meaning. We want what we do to last. We want to make a legacy. And um kind of like some of the examples that I give here, kind of self-care, selflessness, you know, devoting your life to activism, or, you know, looking inward and saying, I'm going to have a boundary here, or um success. like These are all, and and I think what I'm trying to do in this and this chapter is not to, um you know,
00:15:03
Speaker
degrade or put down any other, but these pursuits of success, self-care and selflessness. i'm not I'm not here to say that. I'm saying these are good things, but in and of themselves, or even combined, they lack the permanence that we ultimately desire. They lack that the the legacy. like Everyone wants to make a difference, but we want that to last. And I think um ultimately, something that lasts or ultimately and meet our meaning and purpose comes from um the fact that we're mate we're image bearers, not the things that we do. yeah So I land on the Imago Day and just the idea that the things that we do, the things that we know, the people that we know, even the relationships that we have, they're all they all they're all ultimately fleeting. They're good, they're beautiful, but they're ultimately fleeting.
00:15:47
Speaker
what gives us our ultimate worth is the fact that we're made in the image of God. And given the Peter Singer quote that I kind of engaged with there, he he would argue that you know we're not made in the image of God and you know we have to have some other ways of of assessing so the worth of someone's life. But I think the ultimate aim of the book is to get people to interrogate unexamined atheism that exists in our culture. And what the book is doing, and hopefully in this chapter what I'm trying to do is get us to understand the implications of taking the view that let's say Peter Singer has or all others. What are the implications of that? Because
00:16:28
Speaker
Ultimately, they can be death dealing. yeah They can be serious. um And this is why I just think, and relating to all the chapters, all of chapter the three chapters I've written, there is this sense, i'm I'm very aware that I'm writing as a Christian, as a black woman too, very aware of certain justice issues. And I cannot depend upon anybody's academic essay to tell me what I'm worth. I can't do that. It's too much at stake. come from where I live every day and others in in much worse circumstances than than any of us on on this podcast but ultimately our worth comes from being made in the image of God and I think that is that is a real beautiful thing and also ah it gives confidence.
00:17:15
Speaker
it's good So i mean the the whole book and and your chapters, what we're doing is showing people how faith in God and Christianity in particular makes sense of
Faith Deconstruction and Its Challenges
00:17:28
Speaker
life. Answer the big questions, sort of give ah give a ah foundation to these deep yearnings that we have, these wandering questions. and And I think you you do it fantastically in those three chapters. um But before we started recording, We were chatting a little bit about you know your your studies in sociology um and the kind of trend that we're starting to see, I think we've seen it over in the US, side just true for lack of a better term, the deconstruction movement, um where people
00:18:00
Speaker
especially high-profile Christians, or maybe turning away from their faith or really diluting it to it to an extreme degree or coming to some form of ah no syncretism or whatever it might be. um So on the one hand, you know this this book really is pushing toward the truth um of God and the truth of Christianity, but but people moving away from that also. um what do you and Maybe can you give us some of your thoughts on that, on on what we're seeing out there, what we might um sort of come against or when we have interactions with our friends and ah colleagues and you know people who identify as Christian but have potentially started moving away from that. What what do you see that's going on there?
00:18:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think um just certain, you know, global events have have happened and ah kind of created this watershed moment where people have had their faith massively shaken. So obviously COVID, um Ukraine, Gaza, um We were talking about the politics of this country before we press record as well, which is probably quite only for the best. and the All these political changes, it it the global has an effect upon the local, upon your personal life. And and if we're we're not, um I don't know, we don't have a foundation of theodicy or the
00:19:26
Speaker
How do we use scripture? How do we lean into our faith when these things happen? And I'm not trying to say people are weak, I'm not, because the pandemic shook my faith just as much as i the next person. But I think when these big things happen, it does make you question. I think that's right to do. It's right for us to question. And some people, I found for myself, questions I've had about my faith, a deconstruction, if you will, have actually helped to deepen my faith, ah have led me closer to God. Whereas now what we're seeing, I think, where people if they go down the the path of deconstruction, if that's what they want to call it, often can end up
00:20:01
Speaker
but with the demise of their faith, can end up in a very, like you say, syncretistic place, um ah mystical place, spiritual but not religious, those sorts of things. And I think some of that is also borne out by this idea of wanting to be gracious and wanting to be tolerant of other views. I think that that fuels some of this as well, because, um you know, Christians, we have got it wrong sometimes when we've not been gracious to other people. And I guess it's this idea of because we've been through so much uncertainty and we've all got our echo chambers of social media to fuel that as well and make bogeymen out of other people, um the the deconstruction movement lands us in this kind of the space in between. I'm going to be uncertain and I don't want to land in a certain place because um I want to be open
00:20:55
Speaker
to to new ideas and evolving in my thinking. But that place is still a place. There there is no neutral place. And that that's the irony of it all. in in In saying that you don't have a view, you're saying you have a view. yeah So I feel like um the deconstruction movement is important. I think actually Christians, you know, throughout our lives will go through some form of deconstruction where we refine our faith. But um I think this idea of landing in this space in between almost, i'm I'm not sure long-term if we take it to its logical conclusion, if we ask the tough questions, if we were to take all the 30 chapters in this book and ask these questions of a deconstructed space, what answers do we get? me Can you tell me why Black Lives Matter? Do you know what I mean? There's too much at stake. So yeah, I'm going to stop talking because I could talk about this for a long time.
00:21:51
Speaker
night sir It's fascinating. The other thing as well, I'm conscious we're almost out of time Claire, but i I'm also conscious that sometimes it's the limits that are placed in deconstruction are interesting, right? So people might deconstruct their faith, but I've yet to meet someone going, do you know what? I'm deconstructing my belief in social justice. So it tends to be that certain things get the deconstruction treatment, others others don't. And i always I'm always wary of gotchas, but I do think it's an interesting question. um for for people and i love the way that you I love the way you framed it. yeah There is no neutral ground. Forget who it was who said there is no Switzerland of the mind. you know there's no there's no sort of There is no middle ground to not choose. is to it's choose right um Good stuff. Well Claire, it's been absolutely fascinating.
Where to Find Claire's Work
00:22:40
Speaker
car of conversation. Just one very last practical question before we wrap up. Where is the best place for people to find you? We talked at the start about all the various things that you're involved in. Folks want to track down other stuff by you, perhaps online or wherever. ah Where should they go to find Claire Williams? So you can look at my website realquestions.co dot.uk and all my social media handles are realquestionsuk. And I've also recently started a podcast, which what I mentioned at the the top of the show, um is for black Christians, seeker skeptics who have these questions um about you know the relevance of the gospel in relation to their lives and to to my life as as a black Christian as well. And um that's called Real Questions with Claire podcast on all platforms.
00:23:22
Speaker
um Yeah, have a look at that. Fantastic. We'll all put links to that in the show notes. Claire, it has been a pleasure as always. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you. And we will be back in two weeks time with another guest and another episode of Pep Talk. Thanks for listening and goodbye.