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With Rhiannon McAleer
355 Plays12 days ago
Today on PEP Talk, Andy and Kristi learn about the Lumino research project from the Bible Society. Its in-depth surveys and analysis offer great insight into attitudes towards the Bible. What can it tell us about Biblical literacy, relevance and attractiveness across UK society? And what should we keep in mind as we help introduce others to the message of Jesus in the Bible?
The Lumino project surveyed 20,000 people to find out what they thought about Christianity, the Bible and faith. Explore its resources and insights here.
Dr Rhiannon McAleer is Director of Research and Impact at the Bible Society. After completing her PhD at the University of Exeter, Rhiannon worked for a number of charities including Meningitis Now and the British Red Cross. Since joining Bible Society, Rhiannon has led innovative research projects on belief, Christianity and the Bible. She leads the Research and Impact team, which is responsible for producing high-quality insight to support Bible Society and the wider Church in mission. She and her husband live in Gloucestershire with their two daughters.
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Transcript
Introduction to PEP Talk Podcast
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to PEP Talk. I'm Kristy Mayer, and I'm joined by the wonderful Andy Bannister. Hello, Andy. How are you doing this morning? Hello, hello. Well, I'm doing i'm doing great, and and I love to be called wonderful. that's very That's very kind of you. I guess that the checks in the mail, I presume you're assuming. More of the PayPal bank transfer, wouldn't it be better? No.
Introducing Dr. Rhiannon McElia
00:00:29
Speaker
And we're joined today um as well by Dr. Rhiannon McElia. Hello, Rhiannon. How are you?
00:00:36
Speaker
Oh, hello. I'm really good. Thank you so much for inviting me on. Oh, it's a pleasure.
The Lumino Research Project Overview
00:00:41
Speaker
Rhiannon, just to describe a little bit um about what you do in your day-to-day life, I think you work for Bible Society and your fantastic job title is Director of Research and and Impact.
00:00:54
Speaker
I think one of the things that you you kind of do in your day-to-day work is something something to do with this Lumino research project. Now, I know absolutely nothing about this research project, so I would love to hear as much as you're able to tell us. So please, tell us about this research project.
00:01:12
Speaker
Sure. So at Bible Society, we um spend a lot of our time, especially my team, doing ah research into what people and think and believe and behave and aspire to or fear around the Bible. um And the Lumino Project is one of our major projects over the last few years. So it started in 2018 and it was designed to be a large attitudinal survey on people's attitudes of the Bible,
00:01:40
Speaker
as well as understand their behaviours and openness to learning more. And it was a survey of the general population. So not just Christians, it was ah Christians, all faiths, no faiths. And we really wanted to understand what's the place of the Bible in England and Wales and today.
Survey Findings on Bible Attitudes
00:01:56
Speaker
And we believe it was the largest of its kind. We surveyed 19,000 people.
00:02:02
Speaker
in 2018, which is a massive sample, so gave us really good, robust data. And and we wanted to really ah understand and where people are at the moment so that we could produce insights that would help us and others in mission reach people with the Bible in ways that really make them feel heard and understood rather than what we might like them um to want to receive. we It was very much about audience insights um and and understanding. And then as part of that, we did a statistical segmentation where we identified eight audience types, if you like, in the in the population that have just been really important to both society and and we hope to others. And we repeated the survey in 2022 and it's actually in field again now in 2024. So any day now we'll get the results and be able to update it and see how it's changed since 2018.
Audience Types and Spiritual Curiosity
00:02:56
Speaker
I was going to say, that would be fascinating to see. Yeah, now you've got that kind of starting point, what what changes. But from the the data that you have got from that really last ah that big survey ah that you you did, what's maybe a good question? What surprised you? Because I presume you went in with some assumptions. ah Some of those assumptions probably confirmed, others blown up. But I'm i'm intrigued, you know what are some of the headlines of things that when you looked at it, you went, oh, gosh, I wasn't i wasn't expecting that. Were there things that were not as you mentioned they would be?
00:03:25
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, absolutely. There were some really obvious things. I mean, the the bottom line is most people in England or Wales don't really care that much about the Python and Christianity. So we we saw that story coming through. But there definitely were some surprises. And one of the ones for me was that there is real warmth to both the Bible and Christianity among a significant minority of the population that far exceeds the practicing church community, if you like. So what we're seeing there is it's not just the Christians who are warm to the Bible. and So for example, about a third of our samples say the Bible has something meaningful to say about life today. 35% say the Bible is a useful guide for learning right from wrong and over half, 55% believe it's good for children to know some stories from the Bible.
00:04:12
Speaker
the practicing church community, we think is only 9% of the population. So this real kind of middle ground and warmth that was really encouraging for us when when we saw it in the hope would be encouraging for others.
Influences on Bible Attitudes
00:04:26
Speaker
um Similarly, about a fifth of and the population say they're interested in knowing more about the Bible. So again, that's far above that 9% and a really great um starting point. and But the other big thing that surprised me was when we did our and audience type work, we found real variation in the cold end of the spectrum. So we have kind of one group you might describe as and a cold or hostile, I don't want anything to do with the Bible or Christianity group.
00:04:58
Speaker
But within that, there was actually quite a lot of subtlety and there were three kind of mini groups within that. And what really came through for us strongly is that very much the the dominant and kind of religion hostile voice is only a minority of the population and yet is really dominating that kind of public and conversation. Certainly in 2018, that kind of you know Richard Dawkins feisty conversations on Twitter.
00:05:27
Speaker
it actually was only about 10% of ah our total sample, so about the size of of the Christian um church-going population. So one of the big things that came through that was a happy surprise for us was this kind of spiritual middle ground we we started thinking of it as, an and some basic Bible curiosity and in the in the population, and that was across all ages as well, so that was really exciting.
00:05:52
Speaker
I mean, that's that's fascinating that there is that that kind of middle ground that that the research has revealed. ah What do you think is driving some of those kind of warmer um attitudes and dispositions? yeah I mean, do you think, because as you say, like in culture, you often hear the angry voices, what do you think is influenced and and what's driving those warmer voices that's come through in the research?
00:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's a really great question. So when we ask people what they think has formed their attitudes, the biggest and one that comes out is my education. So um that ah childhood and experience through teenage years and potentially young adulthood is is very important to people. My personal reading and experience also comes through as really important, especially to those in the in the middle ground.
00:06:44
Speaker
and and also going to a church. So when we're thinking about um what shapes people's experience of the Bible, those church touch points, particularly special occasions, so weddings, and funerals, christenings, um particularly for people who don't attend church regularly, those are so, so important for shaping then how people um think think about the Bible. We know childhood experience is and a massive driver, both for positive and and less so. um For some audiences, and particularly those who are more active in practicing Christianity, they're going to say things like church leaders or other Christians. and But for those in the middle grounds, it is much more this kind of education
00:07:28
Speaker
personal experience um and those kind of lighter touch points. And then the cooler end, and ah talking more about and philosophers, thinkers, those are really important and and big influences for them.
Engaging with Religious Apathy
00:07:43
Speaker
And I think what we will probably start to see perhaps in the new data set is potentially we might see influences coming through a little bit. You know, we see like Jordan Peterson figures like him might be having an effect, but I think it's most likely to continue to be based in personal and relationships and as we dig in it will be friends, family, um all of those those sorts of things.
00:08:10
Speaker
So I guess, you know, out of those, Rhiannon, both that what you've said about the cold end and also the but the hot end, it occurs to me there are both, I suppose there are both challenges and and opportunities, I suppose, for evangelism, aren't there? There are some things that are going to be tough and we've got to just face up to and and figure out how we work through, but also things where perhaps there's like ah an open and goal where there's real opportunity. like What would you perhaps if you were going to pick one from either of those things? What might be one one challenge that you think the church need to wrestle with and and think through missionly in terms of how we reach out? One challenge and then equally one opportunity to go. This is wow, there's a great opportunity here for us to grab it in terms of sharing the love of Christ through this.
00:08:47
Speaker
That is very difficult to do just one other challenge. If you need to. meet to I know what your research is a like. I got 17. Oh, yeah. I had the rest. and Thank you. if we have We started off with ah so a big one. I think we'll see is there has been a shift in the tone on the cool end and from hostility to apathy. And I think that is a big missional challenge.
00:09:16
Speaker
um or at least it requires a different approach. So rather than an apologetics sort of, how can I, yeah I'm coming with an opinion and I want to discuss that opinion and we'll we'll argue about, it's more of about, okay, yeah, you you do you. And that is a much, I think, tougher place to and to begin a conversation. Most of um our population are probably in that They answer our questions in things like neither agree nor disagree. Don't know. and that some that That's more challenging. We saw that grow in the 2022 dataset, much more and uncertainty. and The other big challenge, I would say, is um real sensitivity to tone in the
Opportunities in Spiritual Curiosity
00:10:00
Speaker
conversation. So when we've done follow-up work with focus groups and and interviews ah with these audiences we've identified,
00:10:07
Speaker
particularly those in the spiritual middle ground who tell us they're interested in learning more about the Bible, want to know more about the Bible. Incredibly, they kind of approach us with a bit of a suspicion potentially. So they're waiting for us to and trick them into being preached at quite a lot of the time and just really kind of sensitive to almost like a bait and switch. And I think that can be quite a hard line and for people to to walk sometimes. And then of course, if I'm gonna throw in a third,
00:10:36
Speaker
is probably rising biblical and religious illiteracy. So basic knowledge about what the Bible is and what religion is seems to be quite low. And that is and like a generational trend as religions become something that only a small number of ah people do. um You kind of don't have that basic familiarity to and you're you're not all starting from the same point of having the same kind of basic stories. But in that is opportunity, you have the chance, you're not carrying the cultural baggage potentially, and you can introduce things afresh. So on the opportunities, you've got that 20% who are actively interested in knowing more about but the Bible, which is really cool. And the big reasons they give us like number one is it could help me grow spiritually.
00:11:27
Speaker
And the second one is, I'm curious about what it says, which is really great. Like what a place to begin a conversation. And the third one is, and bearing in mind this is not just Christians who are answering this, it would help me know God better. So there's something in those answers about, I still recognize the Bible as a place of spirituality. I recognize it as a spiritual resource. I recognize it as a place that could help me understand God. And I'm curious, I want to know more.
00:11:55
Speaker
I think what's important to remember is that when people are saying God, they're not necessarily talking about God as Christians would understand it. They might be approaching that with a bit of a different idea, but the Bible is still a resource to so explore um that side of of human life. So I think that's really exciting.
00:12:17
Speaker
and I mean, yes, ah hearing it, it's just it's very exciting and and really very intriguing as well, just hearing some of the the challenges and opportunities. I mean, in addition to those things,
00:12:29
Speaker
um ah there Is there anything else that the research has picked up that might be helpful for us to reflect on? You mentioned a few things, but especially if we want to be answering the questions that people are ah are actually asking and not what we'd like them to be asking, ah what what has this indicated in terms of ah what we can reflect further on? Yeah, it's a really, really good question. and I think it's the right posture for the conversations as well in terms of we don't need to have all the answers and and I think a humility in that questing together is a lot of what the the warm audiences especially are looking for. Our wider research base suggests that and there are certain times in life when people are more open to exploring spirituality in the Bible than others and these tend to be around times of transition
00:13:26
Speaker
and times have changed. So the big one is death and bereavement. and We think the next biggest one is birth of a child. And then there'll be other things as well like and moving house can be a really significant one, um critical illness, serious illness, job loss, these times when people are are in transition and are in change. And the pandemic has been that on a quite significant scale. So we think we've seen an acceleration um in people ah asking questions of spirituality and sometimes the the Bible in that as well.
Non-Christian Perceptions of Jesus and the Bible
00:14:00
Speaker
So in terms of answering the questions people are asking, I don't think they're necessarily asking the big existential questions or like this thing sometimes we focus on in apologetics like
00:14:16
Speaker
how can you be good without religion? I don't think those are the the driving questions. and One of the big things about Bible barriers are people don't see how the Bible is relevant to them. So we need to be um reflecting on and thinking on how do we help how do we meet people where they are with and relevant questions that they're asking that are related to things like the changes they're going through at that moment in life. And we found through a wider research base If we can use language of concepts they already know, so things like family, love, forgiveness, like things that are graspable, then that opens a conversation rather than, do you believe that God exists? Which I'm always like, okay, yeah, sure. But that's not affecting me in my day to day. What I'm thinking about is how do I and nurse my mother through this period in her life? How do I raise my children well?
00:15:11
Speaker
You know, it's it's those really kind of big but grounded and questions that we think are then the connecting points with and scripture um that some people are sometimes in life are particularly intrigued by.
00:15:25
Speaker
I think what I take away from that, Rhiannon, is again, challenge and opportunity. We've got some thinking to do, but what an opportunity because those are, you know as you say, those are questions that people are asking. I think there's increasingly less resources in society to answer those. We're not living in tight-knit communities anymore where you can just go to the the the grandparents and go, what do I do in this situation? And so there's a real openness. But as you say, you know as someone who loves apologetics, I'm well aware it's ah it's a third or fourth or fifth order question. um There's time for it, but not always to to to lead with it.
00:15:54
Speaker
but ah But a question, by the way, I also love the fact that everything we've asked you, you've said that's a good question. I love folks who do that. I did that through my entire Viva, by the way, Christie, as someone who's got a Viva career. And then it was only the library, it was only told at the end. And and so so anyway.
00:16:10
Speaker
You know, I don't need to say this is a good question, because that would sound like I'm i'm i'm angling for compliments. um But look, I'm intrigued the i mean true the the research talks a lot about ah about the Bible, which of course that's what you're researching, right? And doesn't mention Jesus, um you know, quite so much. But again, that's that's not a criticism, it's just that's what you're doing. But how do people outside the church see the connection between the two? Because you talked about this sort of lack of religious background knowledge. And I've been struck in some of the conversations I've had with friends with no Christian spiritual background, and when stuff has come up, it's all one great big jumble So where does Jesus and the and the Bible, where do they kind of fit together for some of these you know groups that you've been been looking at? And are there things that we should be thinking about as the church and how we how we help people make that connection? Because I see people quite warm to Jesus at times, but not quite sure where the Bible comes into it. mean Well, that is an excellent question. Oh, thank you very much. It's it's brilliant. and Yeah, you're you're absolutely right. That's what our research would suggest is that um
00:17:09
Speaker
um both of those points, the general mishmash and that kind of low biblical literacy um comes through and there is clearly a very strong connection um between Jesus and the Bible.
Barriers to Bible Engagement
00:17:21
Speaker
People know that the Bible is the place of stories about Jesus, but what they don't seem to have and overall, and there are obviously exceptions, is a sense of and the Bible is the site of revelation about Jesus and or sometimes in Bible sites we talk about like a big story of the Bible. So they'll learn, they'll have stories about Jesus, things like the parables and birth and the crucifixion, but then they've also got Moses somewhere and Noah's ark and there's no sense of how those kind of join up to anything. And yeah, certainly
00:17:59
Speaker
Jesus we think has fairly good PR, if I can put it in that sort of way. So and positive attributes kind of come out like love, kindness, um values. He's a good teacher, he's a good leader, iconic, sometimes even social activism stuff like looking after the poor comes through for Jesus.
00:18:18
Speaker
um It's less so for the Bible. like The Bible has really quite considerable barriers around it. Relevancy, I've mentioned already, is a big one, but credibility. so Can I trust the Bible? I don't know if it's historically accurate. and It's anti-scientific. Sometimes these things through come come through very clearly. and and Accessibility as well. so all The Bible is big. It's old. I wouldn't understand it even if I read it.
00:18:43
Speaker
And the these kinds of things are really quite significant challenges with the Bible that you don't see so much through with Jesus. And there's definitely a minority who find it easier to kind of detach Jesus from the Bible, like a happier to to talk about and Jesus rather than the Bible, which seems a lot more intimidating and a lot more distant, maybe more and academic and those
Introducing the Bible to Non-Christians
00:19:11
Speaker
kinds of things. but Yeah, there's there's clearly a ah really strong connection, but um more work to do in understanding the why of the Bible in in relation to Jesus, I would say.
00:19:25
Speaker
this is This is fantastic. um I can see that Andy is currently typing a fantastic question, and I'm not sure if he's wanting me to ask it or not, but I'm going to go for this final question for now, which is, if you could give just you know one bit of advice, Rhiannon, to Christian listening, who's keen to introduce to a friend the Bible. So for example, say it's one of the gospels. I mean, what advice would you give to them?
00:19:51
Speaker
no and I can't do it on one piece. I'd say, and you know, you've you've done all your trust building, and you know, you you know, you've been context specific, you know this person really well. um I think there's something about um finding the right ah Bible translation to begin with, because we know this accessibility barrier is really big. And you can put different passages and from Scripture in front in front of people, even
00:20:22
Speaker
things like the good news translation and people struggle with it. like It's not easy reading anymore and because of that basic biblical literacy and kind of lost over generations, they are starting from scratch. So I think a really basic thing is um it you can give the Bible to non-Christians and spiritually open people and they will get something out of it and I'll come back to that. But just in terms of that basic accessibility, try and keep that in
Resources for Spiritual Exploration
00:20:52
Speaker
mind. So at Bible Society, for example, we have and dyslexia-friendly and scripture, which is a really easy text that's laid out and it doesn't look like a Bible. So little things like that um can make a huge difference ah to people who are literally intimidated by the text. And that I don't think we can
00:21:11
Speaker
brush aside that people find the Bible itself really um hard as a physical object, even if it's on an app. um And so I guess my one piece of advice is like dan don't be afraid to give people the Bible itself, um all that said. And I think the Gospels are a really interesting place to start. So I would suggest encouraging people to give it a go and then coming back and really, rather than wanting a certain answer back,
00:21:41
Speaker
um really trying to create that space of curiosity and active listening, where you are really genuinely open to hearing what that person read and heard in the text. And I think that posture of trust, you know, that you trust that person, that they can read this, that, you know, you don't need to give them a, they don't need to have loads of historical knowledge and all these kinds of things.
00:22:09
Speaker
and then exploring it together, resisting the urge to have all the answers or be like, but what actually, and if this was based in such such and such a time, just exploring it together in those first few steps. And I think we find that we hear interesting things and from scripture when we hear from fresh eyes um and sometimes really surprising things. Sometimes texts that Christians can have really high familiarity and fondness for can sometimes feel threatening or confusing to people who who don't have that background. And that is really useful for us to learn on and reflect on ourselves and and and our own reading of scripture. So yeah, I would say be brave to try it, find the right kind of like accessible and scripture and then and learn and enjoy that exploration together.
00:23:02
Speaker
There's a lot of really ah really helpful wisdom in there, and and I love the the emphasis there on the active listening, because I think sometimes, as you say, because we want them to discover the truth, we kind of feel we need to push them all the way, rather than there's also an element entrusted with Holy Spirit, right?
00:23:17
Speaker
Right, let the line roll, you know. Let the line roll. I love it. Yeah, we don't need all the answers. Yeah. Well, we've covered an awful lot in this ah last kind of 25 minutes or so. So, Rhiannon, thank you for taking the time. If people want to find out more, where should they go? Where's the place to go? and We've just scratched the surface. where Where would you direct people to dig into what we've talked about this afternoon?
00:23:40
Speaker
ah Yeah, the um the Lumino research can be found on the Bible Society website, or you can find it directly at lumino dot.bible. and But we'd also really encourage people to spend some time on Bible Society's website, BibleSociety.org, and have an explore. and If you are interested in spiritually open um stuff, we've got some meditations for spiritually curious people on YouTube, Bible-based meditations. so um yeah just have a have a look around see what we're doing and um yeah please let us know what you think. Well we'll put a link to all of those resources that that you just mentioned there into the show notes as well so people just pull this open in their podcast app click away and yeah really encourage people to go and look at the stuff on the Bible Society website I mean I looked through all that in preparation for the interview I love the fact it's just so well presented as well as That's really rich. So once again, Rhiannon, thank you so much for being on the show this afternoon. Really enjoyed having you. And, Christi, it's been great to have you in the co-hosting seat as ah ever. So, from Christi and I, it is goodbye. We will see you all, we not see you all, you'll hear from us in two weeks' time with another guest, another episode of Pep Talk. Thanks for listening and goodbye.