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With Chris McBurney
19 Plays1 hour ago
Gavin and Kristi hear from Chris McBurney about how students in Ireland are responding to the gospel in different ways across very different contexts in the north and south of the island. Reflecting on the rise in spirituality, coupled with muddied worldviews, the beating heart of evangelism for young people still seems to remain rooted in authentic relationships. As leader of Christian Unions Ireland, Chris shares his passion for this type of ministry.
Chris McBurney is the Director for Christian Unions Ireland. He lives in Comber with this wife Katie and two girls, Orla and Ava. Having become a Christian at university in Canterbury, he’s spent the last 10 years working in student ministry both in England and across the island of Ireland.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:09
Speaker
Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to another exciting edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solus. I'm Gavin Matthews. I work for Solus, and I am joined by my co-host, Christy Mayer. Christy, how are you?
00:00:21
Speaker
Gavin, hello. I'm doing very well, thanks. It's great to be with you. Andy isn't here, is he? How are we feeling about that? That's good. It's good. But haven't co-hosted a podcast with you for ages. And that's because your excuse has always been, I'm busy off writing my PhD. Is that done and dusted and completed?
00:00:38
Speaker
Gavin, it's a sensitive subject. It is done. um Thank the Lord. It's done. It's past the viva. I have some corrections and then it's all, yeah, it's all done. So I'm just, I'm in the very, very last page.
00:00:52
Speaker
When do I officially get to introduce you as Dr. Mayor then? When when do we get to do that? When's graduation? Gavin, this is this is part of the bigger discussion. People draw the line in different places. Some say the minute you pass, others say at graduation, others say um once you actually get the the certificate itself.
00:01:08
Speaker
i I don't know. i don't know. So I'm just going to wait. I'm going to wait until I get something in the mail. Well, already have had that. I don't know. Not yet. I don't feel like it's yet, Gavin, but I appreciate the desire to answer. We'll postpone that particular
Meet Chris McBurney from CUI
00:01:20
Speaker
announcement. Thank you.
00:01:21
Speaker
Well, Kip Talk is all about sharing the gospel of Christ, and it's and always through brilliant guests. and And this week is absolutely no exception. Delighted to be joined by Chris McBurney. Chris, how are you? Hello. Hello. I'm good. I'm good. I mean, i was getting excited about, you know, Dr. Mayer there, but um yeah I'm excited to hear what I can call her that too Yeah. Thanks, Chris. Where are you joining us from today?
00:01:45
Speaker
ah Yeah, so I'm in a little town called Cumber, and which is about like 25 minutes outside Belfast in Northern Ireland. So yeah, it's not far really from where I grew up. And I'm not going to lie, I haven't spent seven years in England. I didn't see myself coming back here.
00:02:02
Speaker
But you know, the Lord works in mysterious ways, doesn't he? So absolutely. and And that mysterious way has led you to be leading a ministry called
What is CUI?
00:02:10
Speaker
CUI. Tell us for the listeners who don't know,
00:02:13
Speaker
CUI, what is that? What do you do? what What's that about? Yeah, yeah. So CUI stands for Christian Unions Ireland um and part of ISEE, so the International Fellowship of Evangelical Students. um If you're in you know maybe the UK, it might be known as that UCCF. and then But really across the world, there are and so many different indigenous movements in countries. and And our goal really is to give every student on campus the opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel of Jesus. And um i'm deeply passionate about that. um And we have the privilege of being able to be involved in CUI with that. And like see why actually has, 2027, it'll have existed for 30 years.
00:02:55
Speaker
um And before that, it was UCCF would have sent over somebody to kind of oversee the whole island. And then in around then, They felt that maybe rather than sending over someone to oversee the whole island, maybe they could have a movement on the island. and Yeah, it's I mean, yes it's it it's quite a big island. I know depending where you are, it's small, but, you know, there's still a bit of ground to cover. so i mean, about that ground, Chris, it is a lot of ground.
00:03:23
Speaker
like how How far it does CUI reach and extend? like How many campuses? Yeah. well good question. Yeah. So I think like, and this is, what it fluctuates a little bit in the sites. So, and ah you know, so the sites would have a very different and background in terms of the Christian faith than maybe Northern Ireland would have.
00:03:46
Speaker
But um we would probably have somewhere between 25 and 30. It's maybe even a little bit more than that. and Some of that depends though, just on who's in some of the universities in the south, depending on the year and what that looks like, and because they they'd beat they'd look so different. So, ah you know, an average Christian union in the south of the island might have, you know, on average, maybe between five and 30 people in it. there there aren There's one or two which are much bigger, including UCD in Dublin, which has like 100...
00:04:14
Speaker
like 120 which is enormous for the south and then in the north we do have um much larger christian unions so you know um you're talking i think the average size might be about 150 but queens would have maybe like their first cu meeting of the year they'll have about 600 people there so um yeah it's a Yeah, but we will we will stretch across the full island from Colerain down to Cork. And the majority of our staff will be across the south. And we've probably been very intentional in placing staff where...
00:04:45
Speaker
and where maybe there isn't as strong a gospel witness, um particularly in the south and in some of those places that and the churches generally be much smaller and they wouldn't be able to necessarily able to support themselves and things like that. And I think depending on the stats you read, you know, you are looking at the south potentially being the most unreached English-speaking country um in the world and compared to Northern Ireland, which I think statistically is potentially the most reached English-speaking country in the world. So, yeah. Wow.
00:05:15
Speaker
That's fascinating. And what's going on in the campuses that you're kind of experiencing? I know a lot of people who work at UCCF type context that I'm more familiar with here are saying there's a new openness among students that, you know, the post-Christian fallout has ended. And now there's ah an openness perhaps matched by huge ignorance of what the gospel is.
00:05:33
Speaker
but they're sensing that non-Christian students are more open and willing to discuss Christ than they were maybe five, 10, 15 years ago.
Student Openness to Spirituality
00:05:40
Speaker
Is that something that you're experiencing? And you might want to answer that question north and south, if appropriate, i don't know. But what's the temperature on the ground? What are the field reports looking like that you're seeing from across Ireland?
00:05:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And and not a bad time to ask. So i i'd like I just led the Belfast Silly Mission. And so what a joy yeah meeting like hundreds and hundreds of non-Christian students um like every day, which was, which is incredible.
00:06:04
Speaker
Like sometimes I forget that that's actually my job. And I'm like, that's just genuinely fantastic. um But I say you're right So we... ah about a year ago we were doing our strategic report um so i'm quite new in this job i suppose so about two years in and about a year ago we wrote some of our kind of like feelings on where student ministry was and one of those things we listed so we had three maxims one of them being we'd say yes this generation would more spiritual but they're less committed um maybe more emotionally driven less truth driven and maybe a little bit more relationally driven and less authority driven
00:06:37
Speaker
um And that spiritual, let but let more spiritual, less committed would probably stand true. And even just like, you know, a couple of weeks ago, sitting in Belfast, the number of students coming up to me are like, yeah, it's actually really enjoyed that. But umm also, think...
00:06:53
Speaker
also i like i think I think I'm also a Buddhist and I'm like, but I really love Jesus. And you're like, oh, okay. and there And they're willing to come and chat. They're willing to come and engage. They're coming to wrestle with these things, but they're also going, yeah, but I'm i'm not prepared to just lay down one of these. But it does it does lead to that...
00:07:14
Speaker
far greater openness and to be fair christy may know this from my own instagram i do do a thing called crossfit um it is a minor cult um and um but even in that like the conversations that we're having even inside of that at the minute in terms of you know with some of my friends who are like yeah i want to study the bible with you and so we're reading like luke's gospel together and they're like yeah we're not really sure where we land on this yet But really enjoying this. And even literally in a voice note this morning from a friend just saying, yeah, so Chris, I haven't got as far in the studies as I thought I was going to because I've been reading the bits in between and that's so interesting too. And i was like, isn't it?
00:07:54
Speaker
Yeah. so um I think we are seeing that real like desire to learn more and to engage more and and to really reflect on who Jesus is. And you even see that in Irish literature right now. There's a Sally Rooney. She wrote Normal People. Christy's heard of her. um Have you read her new one, Christy? Is it Intermesio?
00:08:16
Speaker
No. Have you? No. I'm like halfway through it's slow and I'm also like I can't really be bothered as much with the relational drama of you know dating as I think I'm just I can't be bothered with it you've got two small girls I'm like oh gosh yeah Yeah, they're never going to date, so it's fine, and everyone's going to live happily ever after.
00:08:38
Speaker
But in like the very middle of it, she has this like dialogue almost with herself, where Sally Rooney is like debating who Jesus is. And she's like, I don't believe in lots of this stuff, but...
00:08:50
Speaker
I really think I need Jesus for some of my morals and some my values, but I don't want to take the father. But it's really interesting because even before the book came out, Sally Rooney was like talking about, she hadn't realized how much the Christian faith kind of undergirded her.
00:09:03
Speaker
And while she views it, but she's basically, a I can't really hold my Marxism up without Jesus. And she's just reflecting And this is like an ode to herself is like this book is she reflects as the characters just debate, right?
00:09:15
Speaker
Christian philosophy, I suppose, um in light of like the spirituality of Ireland and this sort of, I want to pick some of it, but I don't know if I can.
00:09:26
Speaker
And it's really, I just find that fascinating. And I think you see that outworked on our campuses as well. well Well, yeah, I mean, take us there, Chris, because, you know, just thinking about the the spirituality of of Ireland and what you've just mentioned about there being a, I mean, we see this in the UK, I mean, like in England and as well, that there's this kind of increased hodgepodge of beliefs to the point where, you know, I,
00:09:53
Speaker
ah was recently doing some work on um dark spiritual forces and was reading some encounters and by people who were probably like part of the Gen Z kind of generation.
00:10:05
Speaker
And again, they're going to church and they're saying, you know, I can be a Christian and I can also be a Wiccan witch. and participate in these Druid practices as well. how how do you see how do you see this um How do you see this where you are, Chris?
Spiritual Diversity in Ireland
00:10:20
Speaker
and have any you know You mentioned that you just came off the back of, um ah was it Belfast events?
00:10:27
Speaker
Yeah. Are there any stories that come up? for you know just Citywide, sorry. yeah Is there something that... Yeah, that you've recently kind of encountered just to give us, get us a little bit more into the the life and spirituality of Ireland.
00:10:40
Speaker
yeah. And I think I probably should clarify, this will look different depending where you are on the island. So, you know, and was there ever a reformation? in the Republic of Ireland. And I think that, and that seems like a really simple thing, but it's changed massively the dynamics of how that looks. So and just even give one example, I was leading a i was leading ah a talk series at a conference called Kinfar down in the Republic of Ireland last summer, a three-part series thing about mission. And I was just like, i I really enjoy reading the newspaper and I'm one of those people, I buy the physical paper as well. And
00:11:13
Speaker
So I like I brought in the Irish Times and we were in a place called Kilkenny. And in the newspaper that week, it was also the Arts Festival. And they were talking. The whole thing was about bringing magic back to Kilkenny. And I was like reading it through. And they were like, what does it look like? We want to like, you know, re-enchant the castle. We just need it back. We just need magic to be back in Ireland. We need to have this.
00:11:35
Speaker
And the spirituality almost back. i was talking to about this and I was like, guys, this is not what it looks like where I live in Cumber. um And they were like, you know, the people who were there, are you serious?
00:11:47
Speaker
nobody Not everyone wants magic to come back. I was like, no, no, actually where I live, like that's not the case. And we, you know, look at Charles Taylor's Eminem Frame, all those kinds of things. And I think you see that much more...
00:12:00
Speaker
carefully guarded up in the north. And so you do see, like, across the south, there is this much greater sweeping of spirituality and the desire. And we eat new you are talking about your manifesting, you're talking about your charms, your gems, and and what are you using? I don't even know, Barry Keoghan did that interview with Louis Theroux recently where he talks about the importance of gems um and stuff and his spirituality and what that looks like for him.
00:12:24
Speaker
And I'd say that's really overseen then in the way our students are just... looking and looking at anything that they can get their hands on. And so even taking it up to you know, and couple of weeks ago, you know,
00:12:37
Speaker
um ah um I had this amazing encounter on the last night with a Hindu student who um he'd come in and he was like, yeah it was we're doing community on the last night it was opening up Luke 24 and the community that Jesus brings. And what was really captivating to him was actually the groundedness of the Christian faith, that it's not just this theoretical, magical, mystical thing, but actually it also is lived reality as well um in some senses. But I did, I had a really interesting chat with someone on the,
00:13:06
Speaker
It was on the Wednesday night and they were really wrestling. We were doing suffering, reflecting on suffering and with some quite powerful stories and testimonies. And we also had a piece of art there as well that really captivating people. And all the girls he got to me after, she was like, I'm really wrestling with this. But like, and and and what Jesus says here, because this is so beautiful and that he walks with us in it.
00:13:28
Speaker
but I also have really been looking at what Buddhism has to say about this and I'm like have you spent much time thinking about it like um I remember you know I met Ellis Potter whenever we were i was doing um new staff training and UCCF as a young fresh staff worker and he had lots of things to say that were way over my head um but I remember him talking about suffering and just remembering it's I was chatting to her about it and was like I don't think these things can be both held in tension but she loved the the almost the escapism that Buddhism offered in suffering and this removal of yourself from your context and your surroundings and trying to disappear almost and but while at the same time she was going but i really appreciate this idea that
00:14:09
Speaker
you've got a you believe in a God who who walks with you through it and in the midst of it and then suffers himself. And and I think it was and was really interesting to see them having to try and navigate that and wrestle with that. But I'm not sure I remember as many students really actively searching for answers to some of those things and engaging with...
00:14:31
Speaker
you know, other readings in there. I mean, and least in my time in university, it felt a little bit more hedonistic in terms of just, but you go in you just go and have a nice time just to, you know, enjoy your night. Whereas these guys seem to be a lot more reflective and...
00:14:47
Speaker
really wrestling with what is true and and the world around them and really what a lot of people are pointing them to as well. and want ask you specifically about what's going on in the North because Northern Ireland place close to my heart. I've been visiting for 30 years because that's where my in-laws are from um and I've observed a lot of changes in the three decades I've been going back and forth.
00:15:06
Speaker
I mean, 30 years ago, evangelicals didn't quite own the place but had huge influence on culture, education, politics, society, um You know, huge sort of saturation in a very, very Christianized culture, which seems to have sort of washed out with the tide fairly fast, looking from the outside over the last 10, 15 years.
00:15:25
Speaker
Would you agree
Cultural and Religious Changes in Northern Ireland
00:15:26
Speaker
with that assessment? And what are the implications for gospel ministry on the ground? ah Oh, well, that's that's a big question. Yeah. So... um I think some of this, Gavin, will depend on which way you're looking at it and who you are when you look at this question.
00:15:42
Speaker
um a number of people will argue that it's still there and that we're still living in Christendom. um And they're very confident in that. And I think others will go, it's entirely gone.
00:15:53
Speaker
um i think um there's still quite a... Your cultural roots still play quite an enormous part. There's a lot of studies, particularly in Northern Ireland at the minute, looking at whether you would deem yourself culturally Catholic or culturally Protestant. If you were culturally Protestant, that's washed away quite quickly. So that's where the rise of the nuns, so the N-O-N-E-S, is really seen.
00:16:17
Speaker
But that's only seen among cultural Protestants in Northern Ireland. That's not held for those that would have deemed themselves as culturally Catholic. And, you know, if if you're listening or you guys may not quite as aware, and it's not that cultural Catholicism just plays through in an attending church. It also comes through in your sport and your school. We have separate schooling systems. We've got separate sports that you play if you're brought through in that environment. And we find that a lot of because cultural Catholicism will very much still be...
00:16:50
Speaker
rooted in in your family and in a much smaller context. And it's almost like a little bit of a throwback to the way societies maybe used to operate in terms of the nuclear family and things like that. um And so it does mean that Northern Ireland has these interesting dynamics where some of it's been holding on to worldviews and values that might be deemed as more traditional in terms of how high it's made up. There's a left, you know, in a cultural Catholic environment that radical individualism isn't quite as prominent as it would be in a culturally Protestant home.
00:17:21
Speaker
um And so it does it does it does change things. and I do think, and I think like with anything, um and, you know, Christy's got different podcasts on these different things, but what does it actually look like to maybe... um Think about engaging with students, young adults, people where they're actually at.
00:17:42
Speaker
Northern Ireland has relied upon great... and ah and biblical knowledge, I suppose, in terms of as they look to share and evangelise into that environment. and They are far less biblically literate generation. And I think Northern Ireland has just probably held on longer in terms of its evangelism and its outreach into...
00:18:06
Speaker
you know, well, we just, quote unquote, need to share the gospel. But the understanding of what that means is much less. The language has changed and has obviously rapidly, i think Gavin Lebeard-Loon's that, has rapidly changed, particularly among Gen Z and students.
00:18:20
Speaker
But yet we've not necessarily fully caught up with that yet. And I suppose in some ways, you know, some people talk about depending who you are, Northern Ireland might be culturally maybe 30, 40 years behind the rest of the UK.
00:18:32
Speaker
um And in terms of, you know, the South, it's in a very, very different place. But thinking in Northern Ireland, I think as we think about evangelism, we're having to do a lot more thinking about where are people actually at? And also recognizing that,
00:18:46
Speaker
The church has not necessarily always navigated that particularly helpfully. um Yeah. So not even sure that answers just your question very well, Gavin. No, it's good stuff. Thanks so much, Chris. We probably have time maybe for one, maybe two questions. We'll see how
Chris McBurney's Personal Journey
00:19:00
Speaker
we go. But we'd love to ask you... um Maybe just more of a personal question, if that's okay, to take the conversation in a slightly different direction. and But just thinking about the ministry that that you're involved in, you um I'm not going to ask you how old you are, Chris, but I've known you for a a little while and um you are taking on a role at a relatively young age. Mm-hmm.
00:19:22
Speaker
We'd just love to hear kind of how have you found that? Like, how have you found essentially leading CUI, um, at a younger stage in life, family, you know, what have been the demands and how have you kind of walked with the Lord through that in all of the various, um, challenges and opportunities that that might present?
00:19:42
Speaker
That's a great question, Christine. And I'm not sure I have all the answers to that one. Um, but I, Yeah, I think, you know, like I mean, Chris, you might know this. So I became a Christian at university. um I think I emailed someone back, but and one of the guys you interviewed before, Matt Fell, it was in his bedroom doing an alpha course. No. yeah, yeah, yeah. Stop it.
00:20:06
Speaker
Yeah. um I text him whenever I got through the list of podcasts that you guys had done before I was like mental that Matt's name was also on that and i was like so like Matt had an enormous impact on my life and so from that moment like that genuinely changed my life at university and it did like you know I went on did relay with UCCF and worked for UCCF and then came to Northern Ireland and threw myself in but I've been so passionate ah about what it is to reach students. And I think I saw the impact of my own life. And I suppose then coming into this role on one level, it is on one level, it's the most natural thing in the world because I get to do the thing that I've done since I basically became a Christian and that's to tell people about Jesus. I remember... im
00:20:53
Speaker
A mutual friend of ours, Christy Colney Dawson, I remember I was like, I don't want to do Relay. And she was like, Chris, I don't care what you really do on Relay. I just want you to continue doing what you're doing, which was reading the Bible with my friends and sports people. And she was like, yeah like and i I don't know if I'll be able to conform the ways need to be. And she was like, i'll I'll make sure you're fine.
00:21:15
Speaker
You just go and read the Bible, people. And suppose then, so i coming into this job, some of that's just been trying to continue to keep some of that heart and that fervor and I love what I do and I throw myself into it and so I've got this amazing opportunity to be able to continue to do that in a slightly different way and to reach university students across this island and so it's been incredibly fun you know I've my wife and I like at the end of last year got a camper van and we went around the campuses and we met supporters and staff and students on campuses and
00:21:46
Speaker
I just love that. And maybe being slightly younger, i' I've still got the energy to do that. I sleep on people's floors. I've not slept a lot of nights. I'm like, it looks different to maybe someone in my role who might be of a different age demographic. And that brings some of those great joys of, you know, and and students, you know, there's a lot more banter. I get a lot of student DMs on Instagram, right? Like they, yeah, they're very happy to do that. I don't get as many emails as maybe other people might in this kind of a role. Yeah.
00:22:15
Speaker
But at the same time, you're right. I think, you know, for me, it's been having to be really, really learned and open and trying to stay humble in terms of going, I really, really don't know lots of things. And what's been incredible has been the number people who've come around me in terms of supporting You know, Castles Morrell and Hazel Morrell, they were involved in CUI like the 80s, maybe late 70s, 80s.
00:22:43
Speaker
He led the movement into independence in 98. They're in their 70s now. Kitty and I'll go and stay with them. And they just are, you know, we'll sit up and we'll chat about how we're doing. How's our walk with the Lord? What are we committing to? What have we done wrong?
00:22:56
Speaker
You know, very open. And how's our marriage? And even in that, you know, I think there's just lots of these incredible people who've come around us and offering wisdom. And I think a huge part of this for me is going, yeah, I don't really know how to be a boss yet.
00:23:12
Speaker
um And we're learning that. I am deeply passionate about student ministry. And I love seeing students come to know Jesus. Like, that's what I'm really passionate about. And it's sort of been trying to figure out how to do that.
00:23:23
Speaker
i think I think for me, it's been having to just be really clear on those priorities. There's lots of stuff I don't get to do. You know, Katie told me I'm not allowed to play golf until I leave this job. And she's like, you know, and I'm like, okay, I get that. Because right I'm away a lot. I do a lot. And when I'm home, I have to be has to be dad when I'm home and the kids are young. And like where possible they come with us you know we're reintegrating a staff and families retreat in the summer this year coming and my kids have um one of our staff don't if you were new christy uh lovely girl called elene ah yes yeah pen pals elene writes our kids letters and are like lets her know what's going on in the ministry and the kids write back to elene and like they adore her and if we go camping at conferences and stuff like we'll catch up and
00:24:07
Speaker
Yeah, we have quite an integrated approach, I suppose, to what family life and the ministry maybe looks like as well. Yeah. Brilliant. Chris, thank you so, so, so much. it's It's so wonderful to hear not only about the work, but how how you're loving your family and the work and your staff as well and the students that that you get to serve and minister to. Thank you so much. That brings us to the end of this episode of Pep Talk. I've been Christy Mair. This has been Gavin Matthews.
00:24:36
Speaker
Chris, you have been Chris McBurney. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for having me um We will put in the show notes, um kind of notes of where you can find out more, a little bit more about the work of CUI. I think we've got kind of like a website and if there's any other details you want to give to us, um Chris, well we'll pop it into the the the show notes on the website.
00:24:54
Speaker
And we look forward to being with you again in a couple of weeks time when we get to meet another brother or sister in the Lord and hear about their lives lived before him and others. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you soon.