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With Clive Parnell
287 Plays14 days ago
This week Andy and Kristi chat with a creative evangelist (he once taught Kristi how to share the gospel with a paper clip!) with experience of student ministry and church pastoral work. Drawing on these areas and reflecting on the cultural changes over the years, he offers insight and encouragement for parents, pastors and lay people as they seek to "drip the gospel" into daily conversations.
Clive Parnell is Teaching Pastor at Kirkliston Community Church on the northwest side of Edinburgh. He has served in the church since 2012. Previously Clive was with UCCF for nine years speaking at mission weeks all over the UK and abroad, training staff and students in creative evangelism.
Clive is a singer/songwriter currently with Goldfinch Music whose recent release received airplay on BBC Radio Scotland and BBC Radio Ulster. He has also written Bible notes for “Daily Bread” and is currently working on his first book called “Everyday Worship.”
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Transcript
Introductions and Guest Background
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello and welcome to pep talk. This is Kristy Mayer and I'm here today with Andy Bannister, ever my co-host. Hello, Andy. How are you doing? I'm doing great, Kristy. How is life with you today? Oh, fantastic. I'm on annual leave, so I'm still absolutely loving it. It's going well. But we also, fantastically, have with us today um Clive Parnell. Hello, Clive. Hi. How are you doing, Kristy?
00:00:33
Speaker
doing well. um Clive, you might not actually remember this, but well, you're a teaching pastor in Edinburgh. But before that, you're obviously with UCCF for a number of years as a creative evangelist.
Creative Evangelism Techniques
00:00:46
Speaker
And um you might not remember this, but I was part of a little cohort with who you kind of taught to preach the gospel from an object in everyday life. And I remember you taught me how to share Jesus on the back of a paperclip that I used in a in a seminar that you were leading as a young staff worker as I was then. So thank you very much. Great to have you here. Amazing. Good to know. Yeah, I completely forgotten it, but thank you.
00:01:12
Speaker
No, not at all. I was here to bring it up. I remember that. That was one of the things that really stood out to me in those early days, actually, was thinking about how does all of life communicate Christ? And there's so much wisdom that you've gained kind of since your time with UCCF. Do you say that you've been a pastor for 13 years and you're currently thinking, I mean, tell us a little bit about the things that are occupying your day-to-day life at the moment.
00:01:42
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, when they start, I mean, it's, ah I think the the challenges within the culture that we live, whether we're somebody raising children of a primary school age, high school age, whether we're a student, whether we're somewhere senior in life,
00:02:00
Speaker
we're all breathing the same air aren't we? And maybe more so than ever because you know connected um to Facebook and and Instagram and social media and the 24-7 news culture and so more than ever maybe the generations are actually sort of breathing the same air.
00:02:16
Speaker
more than they ever were. And I suppose some of the the challenges, is as always, as it was when I was working with students, is you know how do we join up those dots? you know How do we glorify God in the whole of life? How do we enjoy God in the whole of life? How do we communicate the gospel?
00:02:35
Speaker
in the age that
Cultural Shifts and Evangelism Challenges
00:02:36
Speaker
we're in. and so yes So some of those challenges are still the same, but they just change because of the different demographics and because society changes, doesn't it? But but I think there's in some ways, there's a there's a so stronger commonality across the generations that maybe there wasn't before.
00:02:53
Speaker
Yeah, yeah we we were talking before we hit record about the fact that obviously, you know, you've been involved with with students for for for many years now, but you also talked about the fact that, you know, you've seen great changes too, right? The cannabis things that were very much in the headspace of the students who were there when you were doing work with UCCF. I mean, that was the era of things like the new atheism. but could yeah We are light years on from there now. Talk about some of those changes, but I'd also be intrigued to see your thoughts on whether that's not just students, right? My hunch is those changes are happening across culture as a whole, right?
00:03:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think so. I mean, when I look back, you know, if you go back 20 years, even 15 years, ah going into universities and doing the talk, standing up in the middle of the student union in Glasgow or going to St. Martin's Art College or whatever, it felt quite hostile at times because you were there as the kind of Christian who was advocating that God exists and he's made himself known in Jesus.
00:03:52
Speaker
and and what people were kind of buying into. I think the zeitgeist of the day was very much Richard Dawkins, Gods of Delusion, you know, you you're completely deluded coming and saying these things. So you had to sort of go through a number of objections just to get to some of the narratives of like what Jesus would talk about, whether it was the prodigal son,
00:04:12
Speaker
um And actually in the midst of all that, it was interesting because maybe the lesson for us as apologists, as those who are evangelists is, you know, do we buy in to the total zeitgeist of the day and then feel we need to make a defense based upon that premise. So if Dawkins is saying this, right, we better all prove that God is not a delusion. But actually, when I look back, some of the most successful missions that we did, I remember going around the whole of the north of Wales once. And it was called the happiness tour. And I e along with Steph O'Cloud is a musician, we trekked all the way around Wales. And it was basically like, you know, can we find happiness? And it was incredible the conversations we saw, we saw people becoming Christians,
00:04:58
Speaker
Play it was in the age of new ism but actually i think when i look back on that you know and that's maybe a challenge for all of us involved in apologetics is we don't just have to create a counter argument to decide guys of the day i think the the human condition is always the same that people are lonely they want to be seen they want to be known.
00:05:16
Speaker
they want to be loved, they want to be accepted, and ultimately they need to know that they can find that in Christ.
Everyday Encounters and Spiritual Conversations
00:05:22
Speaker
and and ah But now when I look at it, I think what has shifted is that, and I don't know whether a large part of this was the pandemic, that I think maybe we've become more aware of our own mortality, life is more fragile, but there seems to be a sort of generation that has never heard of anything in the Bible, knows nothing about the gospel, knows nothing about Jesus, but who is more open. And I think that that's the biggest shift. Well, in light of that, seeing that shift kind of from new atheism to to where we are now, what what kind of opportunities, Clive, do you think that presents kind of to you and to your own personal corporate evangelism through the church?
00:06:09
Speaker
Well, you know I think it's on a really day-to-day normal level. you know I don't think you know we need to necessarily organise five things to make that happen. I think the exciting thing is is that that it's so new to so many people, the gospel and the stories of the Bible, that you're only really one conversation away. Like I was ah with my laptop down at a Starbucks ah recently and I'm normally an advocate of independent specialist coffee shops, I have to say.
00:06:42
Speaker
I'm a self-confessed coffee snob, but I don't mind using their Wi-Fi and their power and spending a little bit more time. But anyway, I was down there and I was reading up some stuff about spirituality in the age that we live in, and and particularly how this lady Fern Cotton has got this massive podcast and listenership, and she talks about spirituality and manifesting, and I was like reading about what is manifesting. and And I just kind of really had a bit of a sense, the spirit was sort of prompt to me about like, you know, there's three baristas there in their 20s. Why don't you go and ask one of them, do any of you actually believe in this stuff? And I thought, okay, you know, you know, it's like, and if if you've got the gift of evangelism, when you get that prompt, you just suddenly feel like you're going with it. And then you're going, hold on a minute, this is happening, you know. So I went up to the the counter and I said, oh,
00:07:33
Speaker
By the way, I'm doing a bit of research about spirituality and manifesting. Do any of you by any chance actually believe in this stuff? I'm just generally interested to know, do any of you actually believe this stuff? And they were like, well, ah we don't, but she does. like So they started pointing to one of their colleagues. And I said, Oh, okay, you what's your name? and We had a conversation. I said, well, what is it you believe? Tell me what you believe manifesting is. And she's like, well, I'm a little bit witchy. I'm into this stuff. And I kind of like, I'm always manifesting and I'm always sensing things and trying things and all that. I said, okay, that's really interesting. I said, now, and we spoke for like five, 10 minutes. And then after that, I said, to her they're just out of interest, and this is a genuine question that I asked a lot of 2030 somethings. You know, have you ever read the Bible? And she's like, no.
00:08:19
Speaker
And I said, Do you know anything about Jesus? No. I said, Well, would you would you be open to knowing more about Jesus? And she said, Well, yeah, I would actually. Yeah. So I went back another time, invited her to Alpha, she didn't come. And then occasionally I have a conversation with her, but they're always really busy. But but it just kind of opened this door to me that this generation are so open to this. And and ah in a similar way, two or three years ago, i bought a car. And ah when you get to fill in the form, the guy said to me, what do you do for a living? you know And I said, I'm a minister. And he was like, minister? I didn't think that. And I was like, well, okay, we'll tell you what you thought.
00:09:01
Speaker
I do for a little bit. No, I'm not going to tell you that. But anyway, the long, the short version of that story was, again, and this is something that I often, as I say, ask a 20 something. I say, look, you know, you know, I'm a minister, I'm generally interested, have you ever read anything in the Bible? So I said this to this guy, he said, no. I said, do you know any characters from the Bible? Jonah? No. Moses? No.
00:09:31
Speaker
So then we went on a test drive and I said, why am I driving the car? Do you mind if I just tell you a couple of stories from the Bible? So I started telling the story of the prodigal son. I told him the story of David, of Bathsheba, and he was like, well, that's not in the Bible, is it? And you know, I'm just talking about God's grace. But the incredible thing is,
00:09:50
Speaker
I just think well you know even that one question, you know, I'm just interested, have you ever read the Bible? Most 20-somethings have never read the Bible and they know none of these stories. And the incredible thing is, as somebody in my 50s, I can have this sense where someone's got an objection because they've read the Bible, they believe it's this, it's believed this, it's misogynistic or whatever it is. But the reality is that that generation just haven't read it. And so it's all brand new. It's all fresh. So I think that's an incredible opportunity for us.
Rethinking Faith Sharing with Youth
00:10:21
Speaker
It's an incredible opportunity, isn't it? But also it occurs to me that I think for many of us, it's going to require a bit of retooling, isn't it? Because if you've been sort of brought up on, as you say, you know be ready for the these objections that your friend is going to have, or you know start with the assumption that you're dealing with somebody who's got like some Bible background and doesn't believe it, you know that world you're describing there of huge spiritual interest, but no content at all.
00:10:45
Speaker
I mean, two observations strike me. One is that, as I say, we're going to need to be rethinking. The other observation that strikes me is we know the gospel works in that context because you've just described the first century world in some ways, haven't you? That to go, people are spiritually interested, they're into all kinds of things, you know, Book of Acts territory.
00:11:02
Speaker
But as those first Christians went out, as those men and women went out, you know, from Jerusalem, they were encountering people who'd go, Jesus? No, you've never heard of Him. Who's that then? And the Bible hasn't even been printed yet, so we're not there. So is there any sort of advice or suggestions you'd offer to people listening to this, thinking, Clive, this is on the one hand very exciting, but on the other hand, where do I Where do I start? Because I mean, ah you know, not everyone sits in Starbucks reading books on manifesting and can make that link. So how do the near mortals who are the rest of us, how can we take some lessons from this and perhaps thinking about how we might start conversations with with those who are perhaps under the age of 25 in our circle, whether that's friends, family members, neighbors, people that we teach, what would you recommend? Well, I mean, first of all, ah because I'm not in that generation, I'd love to hear from that generation more what has worked for them. So I wouldn't want to presume I know more than them. But I i think the commonality andy is over the years, it does a lot of it come back to relationship, doesn't it? So I mean, the stories I've told you there are
00:12:08
Speaker
thin on the ground they happen now and again it's not like i'm stepping out every week and having those conversations but i think i think we need to be led by the spirit i think we need to be. have a humble heart that does say, ah you know if we don't do it every day, once a week, Lord, I'm open to having a conversation with somebody about you. you know There are people who are seeking you. There are people who are hurting. There are people who are lost. There are people who are asking if you exist and show you show yourself. And so we need to be those ambassadors, don't we, and those people that the Lord might use. So I think it's starting with a humble heart that says, I'm open.
00:12:45
Speaker
And then the norm, I think, is that we we get to know people. you know we We meet people. We we go and join the golf club. We play tennis. We hang out with people that don't know Jesus. And in time,
00:13:03
Speaker
we can have conversations about the whole of life and bring a Christian perspective to that. So the examples I've given, I mean, they are stuff that happens now and again. But what I would say is, for those people that are younger, and I do hear this experience, and um my my youngest son is a student now and And it is his experience well as well, but you know there are young people who come to church with them that they just wouldn't have done that years ago. that Do you want to come to church?
Imagination in Evangelism
00:13:32
Speaker
Okay, then there are young people who turn up at a CU event or come to a CU itself but that just wouldn't have happened years ago. So if there are younger people listening,
00:13:43
Speaker
you know you're in a greater position just to ask the question, do you want to come to this Carol service? Do you want to come to church? And my my observation is a higher percentage of that age group will say yes. I think the greater challenge is the sort of comfortable middle class age group by which of which I'm part of who are maybe not even asking questions, you know, not even asking, you know, why am I here? What am I doing? Where am I going? But just kind of putting the hand to the plow and just being busy and and getting lost in the business of life. I think that's a greater challenge.
00:14:22
Speaker
there's There's so much kind of going on at the moment in terms of a a reinvigoration of awareness of spiritual realities and ah and a desire and a hunger you know for more, for transcendence. um One of the things that you you mentioned before we started recording Clive was just the importance of the imagination in all of this and and how Well, yeah, how how how do we go about kind of thinking and speaking imaginatively um to to the current kind of contemporary culture, as it were, in a way that meets both young people, but also, as you were just mentioning, kind of the demographic of kind of middle class, maybe middle aged kind of persons? I mean, is that part of the the solution to
00:15:11
Speaker
to some of the difficulties there? Yeah, I think that can definitely help. I think, you know, when we think about culture, and as you probably know, that word culture comes from cultivate, it's an agricultural term that people would use to dig up the land and sow seeds. And the challenge is, as Christians, we're often as much consumers who want to be entertained as the people who are not Christians. and And I think, as Christians, we've forgotten ah the power of imagination, the power of creativity, the need to be cultivators, the need to be not just consumers, but creators, and to be those who are salt and light, whether it's artists, whether it's musicians, whether it's people writing fiction.
00:15:59
Speaker
people in academia, that that we have to be creators and actually capture people's imagination. And I think the challenge is is that many of us turn up on a Sunday, entertain me, I'm here to consume, or yeah put on this podcast, entertain me. But actually, if it if it does one thing, it says actually get those paints out again, get writing again, ah create and write music.
00:16:28
Speaker
Or if we're not skilled in those things, ah go and read fiction, go and read or watch films and talk about these things with people, capturing the imagination that is there and and then actually saying,
00:16:44
Speaker
um you know talking about
Critical and Hermeneutic Cultural Engagement
00:16:47
Speaker
the gospel in it. I was away on holiday recently and I bought this short, I can't remember, I'm terrible for remembering names of books and films, but the um ah there was a ah book of short stories about trees and it captured my imagination. And there's this one story in it where um There's basically, ah there's a guy who's tree, a tree grows out of his head. And he can't get rid of this tree. So he goes and talks to this old lady in the village who's got a potion. And she says, Well, I can give you this potion, it will get rid of the tree in your head. Right? So he says, Oh, great. But she said, you got to come back to me and give me the money for it. So then he thinks,
00:17:27
Speaker
Oh, forget it. The tree's gone now. I'm not going to give her the money. And then the tree starts growing back again, and and and she doesn't help him. And I thought, and I haven't used this yet. So this is a little bit untested and risky telling you in this setting. But I thought, wouldn't that be a great
00:17:44
Speaker
story when we're talking about sin and we're talking about trying to get rid of the problem of sin ourselves, you know, and who's going to pay the price and do we cut corners and things. i mean And the thing is, i i just I was just generally reading it as a book that I got on holiday, but I thought, wow, this has captured my imagination. And that's kind of what I'm talking about. Yeah. yeah One of the things that interests me in that straighter way is to go, you know, one of the things I've i've kind of found helpful personally over the years, Clive, do you think it's helpful if we, you know, to actually be reading more widely? You know, for years I confess I went through a phase where I realized I was really, really largely reading Christian stuff.
00:18:22
Speaker
and actually reorientating slightly and extending the mix. So, you know, whether it's fiction, fantasy, fairy tales, you know, in our music tastes to expand it slightly. um Because to go the more that we draw from those worlds, I mean, yeah, we want to watch what we we watch and read, of course we do, but of going, you're more likely to come across those things that you can draw from. And I think you're also, you're not going to be able to get some bridging points into what your friends are watching. You know, if everybody is, you know, if everybody's watching the latest Netflix show, whatever it is, then not every Christian needs to do, but we need some of us to be watching that so we can then tap into those stories that the world is telling like, like pulled in and act 17. Well, I think you're absolutely right. I think, I think it was like challenged, though, from the Christian and the non-Christian is, is if we do that and we're thinking non-critically. So I think, I think, you know, in theological terms,
00:19:13
Speaker
We're good at hermeneutics in terms of the hermeneutic with the Bible or we're not always good at it, but we know we should do it. We're not very good at hermeneutics of culture. And I think, so the Christian and the non-Christian can equally just absorb culture, can't they? They can just become a consumer of that. So my answer to you could be, right, yeah, you're absolutely right. hand um um and And I'm going to go and read five fiction books on the side of what I normally do, or I'm going to go and read ah watch five Netflix series. But if I'm not thinking hermeneutically about those things, and if I'm not thinking about how do I
00:19:46
Speaker
marry up the Bible and culture, then I'm probably not doing that. That's not going to be a thicker interpretation of an impossibility that fuels my imagination, is it? Both theologically and culturally, I think so. I think we should be, but I don't think we should do it. And I'm not, you're not suggesting this just to kind of go, hey, look, look at all the books, you know, you get to the end of the year and somebody puts up, I've read all these fiction books, I've read all, I've watched all these Netflixs,
00:20:13
Speaker
I'm so culturally engaged, but are we? you know Are we actually thinking about those things? Very good. Just on that Clive, what do you think it would look like for us to be more culturally engaged in a way that's generative, that's evangelistically generative?
00:20:29
Speaker
and that yeah well i think I wonder if there's a bit of kind of groundwork here. If you're having a conversation with somebody in a coffee shop or down the pub, they might not be, and they're not a Christian, they might not be thinking, um well, I watched that series on Netflix. It's really made me think about relationships. They just might not be on that way of thinking. But I guess we could be saying, oh, I watched that thing on Netflix. And it really made me think about relationships. What do you think about the relationship between that person and that person? So I think as Christians, we might be need to be the ones that are bringing that critical thinking that's much further back, because I don't think we should assume that people are going to be asking those questions. But that's way off, isn't it? You know, did Jesus die in the cross of lies again, but it's actually starting with
00:21:23
Speaker
The cultural mandate is starting with we're made in the image of God, what our relationships are about, why was that written that way? you know So we're going way back, aren't we? But I think that's what we almost need to do. ah You know, that's why I talk about, you know, hermeneutic culture as well
Challenges of Modern Discipleship
00:21:40
Speaker
as the Bible. you know yeah Well, i'm I'm conscious we're running rapidly out of time as we approach the 22 minute mark. So perhaps one last question yeah to kind of fling your way, Clive. We've talked to a lot about big ideas about where culture is going and how we engage those um and and then, you know, art and literature. and
00:21:59
Speaker
all this kind of stuff. But I'm also conscious that you also are ah have the everyday role of being a pastor of a church there in Edinburgh, in a city kind of context. And those contexts, don't they? They bring challenges and opportunities. Perhaps as a final question for you, what do you see in your day-to-day work there with the church in Edinburgh? What do you perhaps see as one of the biggest challenges, but what's also one of the things that's exciting you and getting you just like singing for joy in terms of what you see God doing there ah through the church? Perhaps a challenge and also something to rejoice in.
00:22:28
Speaker
I think a challenge is that we are living ever more in a 24-7 culture that doesn't seem to be slowing down. And I think that a lot of what we read in the Bible, particularly we've been going through Ecclesiastes and Proverbs and the wisdom literature, is that we should slow down and we should have a different rhythm and we should have a different season. So it slightly worries me that pastorally, we seem to be getting busier and faster, just like the world it is, you know? And I just don't think that's healthy for us as humans, as followers of Jesus. And I think that it's almost seen as a sort of negative thing to slow down. But I wonder whether
00:23:21
Speaker
a counter cultural witness of Christians to the world is is that we do live at a different rhythm. And we do live live at a different pace because we know that we're validated from from Jesus and not from what we do and how fast we go. I think an encouragement is personally as I look back and I think of a six year old child who's now a university student who has grown up in the church and who's been fed by various people, the truth of who God is and then has worked that through and then profess faith in Christ, got baptized and now gone to university and and wants to share Jesus for his or herself. That's a real encouragement because i think I think, you know, sometimes, you know, I am an evangelist as well as pastor, but
00:24:14
Speaker
sometimes in the local church, we can discredit the slow coffee drip of discipleship, as opposed to the instant coffee of evangelism ah events.
Closing Remarks and Future Episodes
00:24:28
Speaker
And I think that there's a lot of young people becoming Christians as a result, I think,
00:24:37
Speaker
being fed that slow drip over a number of years. And I think we need to give thanks for that. And, you know, if if someone's a pastor here, and they're they're listening to this, and they're feeling a bit discouraged, and, you know, the church down the road sin 20 people become Christians at an event they put on, we just need to know that, you know,
00:24:58
Speaker
I once heard it said that if I was to say to you, Andy, or Kristy, what was the dinner that you had on the 5th of March in 1998? You probably wouldn't have a clue what you you had to eat in 1998 and the 5th of March, but you were fed food that's kept you going.
00:25:15
Speaker
and i think a lot of the slow work of pastoral work is that we feed people, hopefully nutritious meals, we can week out, we can week out. And then the Lord adds to his church. And sometimes it's painful. Sometimes it's disheartening. Sometimes you want to feel like giving up. But actually,
00:25:38
Speaker
if you see it in a family context, it takes a while for that baby to become a teenager, but they need to be fed and they need to be nourished. And I think that's the slow work of ministry often, yeah. Yeah, that's a great place to to land. Actually, I like that. there just there' this The slow drip, drip, drip. As someone who can occasionally himself be a slow drip, you that's encouraged.
00:26:03
Speaker
and kind of me as well. Well um Clive, it's been great ah talking to you. There's so many more things we could we could talk about. We haven't even talked about the book that you're working on, Everyday Worship. We're looking forward to and to that. If people want to find out about the church that you're involved in, the stuff you're doing, is there somewhere they can go? is Have you got a website or a social media ah following? where What's the best way for people to find you?
00:26:23
Speaker
um while they can can just look up YouTube, Kurt Liston Community Church and when our services and sermons are online there. um yeah just Fantastic. Well, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. so Anyway, it just ah falls to me then finally say thank you so much for taking the time to join us. It's been an amazing conversation. so God bless all that you're doing.
00:26:43
Speaker
And to all of you listening to pep talk, whether you are at home, on a run, in the shower, wherever you're catching your podcast, it's been great to have you with us and join myself and Christy in a couple of weeks time, and we will have another guest, another episode for you. But for the meantime, goodbye.