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With Chris Sinkinson
182 Plays2 days ago
We recently spotted some adverts on the London Underground asking "Who is this Jesus?" So we checked out the website tell-me-more.org to find a fantastic video series filmed by some of our friends. "Hey, come on PEP Talk and tell our listeners about this great evangelistic tool you've made!" we said. "Of course!" they said, and...here they are.
Chris Sinkinson serves as Associate Minister & Programme Director for the School for Discipleship at Lansdowne Church, Bournemouth. He has previously worked for UCCF and served as a pastor in three local churches. He taught theology for many years at Moorlands College and has a PhD in Theology from Bristol University. Chris has written extensively on archaeology, apologetics and philosophy. He presented the Discovering: Who is this Jesus? series, as well as Sifting the Evidence, explaining what archaeology tells us about the historical accuracy of the Bible.
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Transcript
00:00:11
Speaker
Hello, and welcome to Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Kristy Mayer, and I'm joined um by Andy Bannister, who is- I'm sure, Kristy, in the way that you- I slightly hesitated because I'm never sure if it's English, second language, if it's joined by or if I'm joined with someone. I always have to double check. what what was What is the right? I think I'd say joined by, but I'll tell you what, if you're listening to this and you disagree, send in an angry letter in Korean and we will um we will change how we do the intro. Well, great to be with you, Andy. Are you doing all right? I'm doing all right. Yeah, I got holiday day tomorrow, so I'm i'm relaxed. I'm D-mall happy. Oh, fantastic. Yeah.
00:00:51
Speaker
Well, speaking of holidays, um we are joined and by the fantastic Chris Inkinson, who I don't actually know where you're joining us from today, Chris. Where are you joining us from? I'm from down on the Sunshine Coast in Bournemouth. Well, welcome, Chris.
00:01:07
Speaker
I mean, just to introduce you a little bit to our listeners, um you, you travel quite extensively across the whole globe. So um I have your potted kind of profile here. And not only are you a um and not only are you in local church ministry in Bournemouth, but you're also a writer, and you're a filmmaker. And here we go. You're also an archaeologist. And I believe that you are a secretary for is it the new Forest Archaeological Society?
00:01:34
Speaker
Well done. Very good. Yeah. I forgot that myself. Some of the guests that we dig up on this podcast is all I can say. Oh no, bury it. yeah ah Terrible, terrible, terrible. You're regularly and frequently involved in digs in the holy land. So gosh, there's a lot there's a lot to dig into here, isn't there? It's going to be terrible.
00:01:59
Speaker
and Shall we start, Chris? by um ah You were telling us a little bit before we started recording about a campaign that you're involved with. What is that? tell us ah Tell us more. Well, this is happening right now. So, I've i've been involved in in a few films now over the years and ah hopefully I'm getting a bit better in my presentation skills.
00:02:22
Speaker
And all of them have been related to trying to explain the Christian faith or the background to the faith in a way that ah the non-church world, the non-Christian world will find interesting and engaging. So and there was one I did a couple of years ago on the archaeology of the Bible, so hence my interest in archaeology, and that's called sifting the evidence. And that that got quite a lot of traction actually. there's ah it's It's available on YouTube for free and and people can watch that.
00:02:48
Speaker
But then we followed it up with another film that came out a few months ago now called Discovering... I always call it Discovering Jesus. That's the easiest way to look it up. ah The long title is Discovering So Who Is This Jesus? And it's really a film set on location in the Holy Land where we explore the story of Jesus. Who is this man? Where did he come from? What did he teach?
00:03:10
Speaker
in a way that's accessible, ah we try and avoid heavy religious language, and this particular film really lends itself to non-church audiences. So what's going on right now is using that film and some other yeah resources I can tell you about,
00:03:26
Speaker
ah We're trialing a campaign in London. So that's using the London Underground. So there have been posters all over the London Underground. I think every carriage has had one. And then on the stations, there's posters, which have, now I don't know why this is the case okay, but on the stations, they can include the QR codes. And the QR codes are great for this kind of thing. Because there is a DVD. I mean, it's you know that old technology, you know alongside your gramophone record, you can have the DVD. But given that a lot of people don't have DVD players,
00:03:55
Speaker
The QR codes are the way in, really, so people can scan their smartphones, watch the video. Now, for some reason, it's only on the stations that you can have the QR codes. I'm not sure what the background is, but the posters on the underground will give the web link, but you're not allowed to use QR codes. It's something to do with confusing smartphones or whatever.
00:04:14
Speaker
I say my lunch probably that on the on when you're actually in the underground train itself in the tunnel, you can't get reception, but there's a reception at the stations. But it was interesting because I came across this when a friend sent me a photo. A friend sent me a photo going, look what I've just seen on the Northern line or ah or whatever. And i mean the first thing is, I think, tell us a bit about why you decided to try it out in London and on the underground. Because I mean, that is definitely going public square right now. you're in The major city, yeah major sort of thoroughfare in terms of transport.
00:04:44
Speaker
what was the What was the thinking behind that was the place to test this? So we wanted to do something in the public square. That that that is the background, OK? So we're looking at what um kind of um channels there are. And we are going to do more, OK? This is like the testing the water one. But this is the probably the best single hit that we could think of. Now, obviously, it doesn't connect with the regions. It's it's the capital. And that that's obviously limited. But the alternatives or the other opportunities would include things like the national newspapers. And we've been talking about national newspapers.
00:05:17
Speaker
Nowadays, that's not really such a big deal. So the national newspapers are still there as one means of reach. Obviously, we're looking at other kinds of media. But to try out whether it's quite expensive, by the way, we'll just say, I won't give you the numbers, but it is quite expensive to do a London Underground campaign. But to see what the uptick is on people watching the film, and we've got some printed resources people can get hold of as well.
00:05:44
Speaker
what would be the uptick? Now we're in the midst of it, so we don't know the fallout yet, but it is looking really good. So we definitely know online the viewing as has been been going up. So we know the the reach is there. So if it works on the London Underground, if the kind of poster, the QR codes, the links If that really does connect, then there is some some investment there to roll this out. Now, that could be other regional um you know networks advertising through other types of regional transport and so on, as well as national national newspapers. but um but But this was the trial and seems to be going well.
00:06:23
Speaker
That's utterly brilliant, Chris. what what If I were on the Tube, I'm in North London, I go on the Tube, I see this, I scan the QR code. Where would that take me? like What would be some of the resources that become available to me? What what happens when I land on that page?
00:06:38
Speaker
Okay. Well, the the film itself is a one-hour film that covers the life of Jesus. So I'll take you around the Holy Land. ah Everything I talk about is on location. So if we're talking about the the ministry of Jesus in Capernaum, there we are on the site. It doesn't go into so much of the kind of like archaeological background. It's really telling the story on location. That's that's the kind of ah presentation Now that's the film, but what we've done with the film is split it into shorter episodes and that's what the QR codes will link to. So initially, when you go with the QR code, you'll be taken online. um I won't mention the platform that hosts it, but there's a... a well-known platform online which hosts ah the the film and you'll be able to watch the 12-minute episode, if you like, of of the series. The resource that goes with it, an accompanying resource, is a a book that was actually written by Roger Carswell, I should say, to go in with it. I don't know if you know ah Roger Carswell. He was on pep talk a few episodes back. We know Roger. What did he mention this? I'm not sure he did, actually. So you can take that up with him and go, Roger. He didn't know.
00:07:44
Speaker
ah Roger has written this brilliant little booklet. It's beautifully produced, glossy illustrations and so on. And ah this has been produced super cheap. And in fact, people can get hold of a copy for free. It's more than a tract, you know, because it's ah got a spine, so there's quite a few pages, but it's it's a nice easy read divided into the six parts that accompany the film. So if somebody has the book,
00:08:08
Speaker
They can read the relevant chapter where Roger gives an explanation of the life of Jesus, click on the QR code, and then off they go. They can watch ah on location, ah the the account of the the ministry of Jesus. So so that's the way that the the book works, which then ties in with the film. There's um a website, Tell Me More, which Roger Carswell put together that will provide more more resources and an email link. So um there's um other routes people can go, but the core of it is a ah film which will explain the life of Jesus on location, and that's what people will access through the pain.
00:08:42
Speaker
so Obviously, it's ah you know it's relatively early days because you're doing the trial and so forth. Have you had any sense of what the response has been like yet? Are you able to judge that, engage with people? How how has it been going? All I know is that we do see the uptick in terms of the video being watched. Don't be significant. So, in terms of people getting hold of the the book, I don't know those figures yet. So, it's worth saying this is teamwork, right? So, there's a number of groups involved. 10 of those is the organization that's primarily responsible for the ah distribution, for the marketing, for the book. So, 10 of those will know the figures in terms of ah what that looks like for the for the book. ah CTA is another... rule This isn't an extended advert, by the way. umm just right This is great. I was thinking of the organizations you can name check in in one answer. The label cards of the table are tell you that the Christian Television Association, CTA, a is the organization that actually produces the film. They're the media company, and they ah know about who's watching it online, and they also distribute it to other networks. Now, I tell you, I would love to see this on secular networks, okay? At the moment, it's all on Christian channels, okay? So we're we're talking, I can't remember all the ones, but Revelation TV, some of the American channels, globally, of course, it is global. So there are other Christian networks, around the world showing it. My heart is that we could see this being shown in the the secular networks, but maybe we'll talk more about that in ah in a moment. so So right now we're definitely seeing the uptick with the ah the viewing and ah it'll be a few weeks before we know what that looks like in terms of, well, ultimately what we all want to know is what's the response like and how are people are responding to that. And that's going to take quite a while to process. Once we know, you know, if this is all very positive, then I think you'll see that kind of poster ah in other versions, maybe, but that kind of poster then being rolled out in lots of other places nationally.
00:10:36
Speaker
So just thinking a little bit about about the response, I mean, was this put together out of, well, was there a particular reason why this was put together? is Was there, have you sensed like a particular spiritual appetite or hunger kind of for the historicity, um but you know presenting the historical claims of Christ? always yeah what was Tell us a little bit about the rationale behind the campaign and and how you think it's gaining traction with people.
00:11:02
Speaker
Great. Well, Christy, I mean, let's let's roll the clock back slightly from the campaign to the the film itself, because that kind of answers your question, because I think um what what we find more and more in terms of reaching an increasingly yeah secularised, unchurched world is there's an absolute interest in Jesus and history in the Bible. I don't think that's gone away. There's a fascination with, I mean, archaeology is my kind of way in really, and I find a huge fascination with with archaeology, history, historical background, and fascination with Jesus. What people don't like is the church, and they really don't like propaganda if they feel they're being sold something, if this is a propaganda being smuggled in. That's when I think people turn off.
00:11:46
Speaker
So to my mind, the the films that I've been involved in attempt anyway to try and let the story speak for itself, you know, I would say to any non-Christian anywhere in the world, the Holy Land is a fascinating place. The archaeological record is immensely intriguing. ah The British Museum is a wonderful place to spend a few hours, you know, and it doesn't matter what your background is. I'm not selling anything at that point. I'm just saying, take a look at what's there.
00:12:13
Speaker
And so the the films I've been involved in kind of follow that sort of theme. So in the case of ah this Discovering Jesus, it is a little bit more um in your face in the sense that you know the title says it, right? we are We are talking about Jesus. But I feel that the film itself doesn't have the kind of um overtones of what might be seen as propaganda. it's um it's let's just Let's just think about this story. What do we know? Let's think about it on location. Let's put it together. And you make up your own mind what you think of this person who we're we're we're talking about. That was true of the first film as well, the archaeology one, Sifting the Evidence. ah We were quite careful in that film to make sure that ah most of the archaeologists we interviewed are not Christians, so we're letting them speak for themselves. ah When we look at the sites, we're quite careful to overplay the evidence. you know We're not saying, this proves every word of the Bible. but We're not doing that. We're just saying, look,
00:13:07
Speaker
Just as ah in an objective way, look at what's been found, listen to the people finding it, and what does it tell us? Well, what it tells us is you can take the Bible seriously as a reliable book. Now, I mean, you know, the people we interview don't necessarily believe in miracles. They don't believe in ah chapter and verse of everything you read. But they do think the Bible needs to be taken seriously as a historical record. And that's where I want to start. And that's the kind of background to this. So in terms of the campaign, you know, what we're doing, the the ah motivation for this.
00:13:39
Speaker
is that we're really thinking, look, let's um try and start where people are at with a ah ah fascination with Jesus. ah They don't want to be sold at church. They don't want to be sold at denomination. They don't want to be pressured, but they can just come and check check out what we know about Jesus, listen to the story of Jesus, make up your own mind. And, you know, the backdrop, I mean, the backdrop really brings it to life. I mean, k Christie, I wish you could just come out there with me. I would love that, please.
00:14:06
Speaker
I can see it now. in in Indiana mare, I can just see it. you know Now just for carrying his bags, that's about all I'm qualified to do. That would be great. Keep going, Chris. The um yeah your points about the the interest that people have in Jesus, though, I think i think you're absolutely on something here. I i i first really was awakened to to that in a new way. I mean, I've seen it for ah for it for a while, but but we're looking at the reaction to things like you know um the TV series, the Netflix series, The Chosen,
00:14:34
Speaker
Um, you know, different saying that's done more sort of dramatization of the life of Jesus. But you look at their viewing figures and the the comments online and people engaging. So I think there is a huge hunger there. So I guess that leads me to the question then, Chris, how do Christians base best use this? Because one of my slight concerns occasionally as Christians come across great resources and go, oh, isn't it wonderful? It's a wonderful evangelistic resource. Let me share it with another Christian. um yeah I saw this great ad on the tube and we share it with our friends at church rather than here's a great resource. How can we prayerfully think about sharing it with people who it's intended for? So how can how can Christians make the best use of this in their own sort of evangelism and conversations with friends and neighbors? What would your advice be?
00:15:15
Speaker
Great. Yeah. And and absolutely, Andy, isn't that the the problem we have is that we do tend to produce a lot of resources for Christians and that internal market means we're in a bubble almost, an echo chamber. I mean, ah I could talk more about the the book that you've just produced, actually, the the recent one that you've produced, which I think is a ah superb example of a book that you can give to a non-Christian without feeling awkward about it. You know, I mean, that that I think is the thing about the Discovering Jesus book. So yeah have you ever wondered is a great title just las you to a non-Christian friend without feeling awkward? Because that's a great question, right? Have you ever wondered? And the way I would use any of these kind of resources is to say, look, I found this book.
00:15:54
Speaker
Because this is what I would do with ah with ah a secular book, right? If I read a book on the the rise and fall of Boris Johnson and found it interesting, I would talk to my non-Christian friends and family and say, this is a really interesting book. I found it fascinating. I'd love to see what you think about it. So you know would you like to read it and tell me what you think? So let's do the same thing then with Christian resources and think that way. you Well, you've done it well. I hope I'm doing it OK. So what we've done with the Discovering Jesus is produced it in a format which I don't think is is embarrassingly evangelistic. What I would do is, and by the way, to get hold of a copy, you can get hold of a copy for a pound, okay? If you go online to 10 of those, you can get with the DVD, if you know anybody who's still got a DVD player, maybe they do cassettes and VHS as well, I don't know, but you get a DVD. Real to real, Chris. i why wow we I want real to real, ain't I?
00:16:45
Speaker
You can set up a projector in your neighborhood and have people gather around the city film. Flannel graph. Flannel graph, I'd love that. Now, whatever format, the point is you can get it really, really cheaply. I make no money out of this, by the way, not not a penny. so So just to make it absolutely clear, this is never going to be a money spinner.
00:17:03
Speaker
ah We just want to get this into people's hands. And so if you you go on 10 of those, you'll find various pricing points and so on. But in my church, I give it to people for a pound or sell it to people for a pound. Now at that price, the great thing is you've got the book and the DVD and you can scatter the seed widely, okay? If if it costs a tenner, it's a little harder to do that for for a pound. What I would suggest is get 10 copies, something like that.
00:17:28
Speaker
And then say to your i mean if you don't like the thing, you can't do this. If you watch it and think this is rubbish, then this won't work, right? But if you think there's anything in it, why not say to your friend, look, I've watched this film and I'm absolutely blown away by what it means to think about the the story of Jesus and the land where it all took place. I'd be really interested in your opinion and just give it to them.
00:17:51
Speaker
And then for a pound, you know if you gave 10 away, how many are actually going to read it, watch it, get back to you? What's ah the hit rate? Well, well let's say it's a half or a third. That's still two or three really, really good conversations. And I think that's good for 10 pounds, right? and Or three good gospel conversations. So they can watch it through, they can read it. And then it's that follow up conversation you can have with them. And we've we've worked hard to try and make this a sort of resource which um you know, will be, what won't embarrass you as if it's propaganda. we We are actually working on another version of it right now, which is for use in schools. And so that's a version which will also be, you know, edited in various ways so that school assemblies could use it. Now, I'm very excited about that, because I think it'd be ideal for a school assembly. You can show 12 minutes, you know, a part a section of the life of Jesus, great backdrop, um you know, the landscape is is is so so significant. And that's the kind of way you can can get into the the public space with with this material.
00:18:56
Speaker
And I think what what I'm really looking forward to discovering, Chris, as I watch it for myself, is just how immersive it is from the way in which you're you're describing it, you're there, you see these things. And thinking about what that looks like in schools and for individuals and and maybe for churches, what what do you think it might look like to, we we talked a little bit about those before, but to be training and mentoring kind of evangelists, um to be able to maybe use these kinds of resources or perhaps explore a different way of communicating who who Jesus is. Do you see a gap in that as much as a gap in resources? Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't have a gap. I mean, there there's there's a lot of good resources out there, so I'm not suggesting that this is like ah a brand new idea. But I do think that we need to really get up to speed with the various forms of media we now have. Isn't it interesting that you know mainstream media
00:19:50
Speaker
has for many of us it's felt quite hostile to that the clarity with which we'd want to present the face so mainstream media for many of us has felt more difficult to get into. You do have a lot of Christian media, and the various channels and so on but that feels like it's only really broadcasting to Christians. That feels like the echo chamber. Well, isn't it incredible that right in the middle of all of that, we've got these internet platforms that have just blown the doors off, you know, access in terms of how we broadcast. So so on YouTube, for example,
00:20:22
Speaker
ah yeah our potential reach now, if we use it well, if we can communicate well, if we can learn the skills, this is where the discipleship comes in, learn the skills. So how do we communicate in an unembarrassed way our faith? we're We're not trying to hide anything, we can communicate that clearly, but in a way that is is really engaging with our non-Christian friends, it connects with their vocabulary. when So when we did the film, I mean, again, I'm not suggesting we got it all right. I mean, you know, people can have different opinions.
00:20:49
Speaker
But we worked really hard on the vocabulary. we We set ourselves the task that the film would only use the vocabulary that would be found in a tabloid newspaper. So basically, I'm going back to the Sun newspaper again and the mirror. Others are available and say that's the vocabulary we're going to use. Now, that's a challenge, OK, because there's lots of theological language that I want to use. I mean, I taught in a Bible college. I love theological language.
00:21:12
Speaker
And that means we we had to debate certain terminology and words we used. I mean, not just theological terminology, everyday language as well. We wanted to make the level something really accessible. I found that really helpful as a challenge actually to think that one through, to think about how we communicate. It's um ah its the it's the the point that C.S. Lewis talks about in that sermon, what is apologetics, which gets ah republished in various books. you know He talks about that work of translation, trying to think all the time about the language of the people we're talking to.
00:21:41
Speaker
Of course, C.S. Lewis was brilliant at it, so he was a ah master in this this area. but But in our own way, in terms of discipleship and evangelism training, the business we're in now is a translation job as much as anything. I mean, I know Andy's written lots of good stuff on the the apologetic side. How do we persuade? And absolutely, we need to do that. But we also need to just get the communication done. So often, people don't even understand what we're talking about. And that's why they think there are objections. They're objecting to something they've misunderstood.
00:22:10
Speaker
and so they're objecting to the wrong thing. So I think the film meat form of media is really good to stretch us, to test us, and what a wonderful time to live in that we can get this media out to millions. yeah I mean, the Sifting the Evidence archaeology film, which you can watch on YouTube if you're interested, that's been around for a couple of years now, but that's had 4 million views and ah tens of thousands of comments. but My kids say to me, don't read the comments, Dad, never read the comments. they ever comments yeah But actually I did go through some of the comments, there's thousands of them, and really, really encouraging actually. If I if i did get sucked into being you know the keyboard warrior, I would spend time trying to engage with the comments because from loads of different backgrounds, different parts of the world, ah really interesting comments but being made. And um and so know what an incredible platform that we've we've got and there are others others available.
00:23:01
Speaker
I always think as well, building on that, Chris, the other thing that encourages me is also then using that is so easy because like you say, you know, just like we if we discover a wonderful book, you know, we can naturally talk about it to our friends, you know, sort of saying to our friends, hey, watch this really interesting film, you know, here's a link on our, on whatever social media platform we're on, as you say.
00:23:19
Speaker
yeah You've got you got a several hundred friends on Facebook, only 10% may bother clicking, but that's still 10%. As you say, it's never been an age where it's been so easy to create content, and content creating has been democratized, but it's also never been easy to share that content at at the same time.
00:23:36
Speaker
So I guess I'm sorry. Yeah. Just picking up on that. I mean, sort and and training what what a great opportunity to train people to use that kind of media well. And, ah you know, that's where I think in terms of our understanding of evangelism training, yes, there will always There will always be an important place for the door-to-door, for the street work and so on. that that Let's not you know um lose sight of the the know the cutting edge of face-to-face evangelism. But how important is it to be training people to use a camera well, to be able to script something well? I mean, this this is so key. To be able to introduce a podcast well. and yeah these I'm still learning. I'm still learning. You are masters at this. You are so good at this. I am. Well, I can't believe we've hit 25 minutes, Chris. There's so many things we have talked around and we could have talked around and a lot more because there's so many ideas going on. I love the fact every time we talk to you, there's something else going on in your head and God's using you in so many ways. But that's very last questions that we wrap. What's the best way for people to find ah the kind of stuff we've we've talked about? Is there a website again that we should be ah sending people to? Where should people go?
00:24:43
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, to to be honest with you, first and foremost, if you go on YouTube and you either search up sifting the evidence or you can search up discovering Jesus, I think that will get you there, discovering Jesus or discovering, so is this, so who is this Jesus maybe? Anyway, if you do a search on YouTube, this will come up near the top and you for free, you can watch the whole thing through.
00:25:05
Speaker
If you then want the other resources, 10ofthose.com is the place to go to, and you'll see various deals. I think the full price is um something like $6.99, but nobody ever pays that because there are different ways of getting it. So really, you can get it from about 79p, I think, if you have the most options. Yeah, it's similar with Have You Ever Wandered. we love we Likewise, we work with 10 of those, and they're fantastic. it's i In some ways, they're like the dillboy of Christian publishing for those who know any fallen horses. Like a barrel load for a, you know, but he's set a pound a piece, you can't go wrong. So we'll also put links to all of that in the show notes.
00:25:36
Speaker
So if you're listening on a podcast app where you can pull up notes that go with the podcast, do look through, click through, check out all of Chris's stuff, share stuff, talk about it, and yeah, get over to 10 of those, and get yourself a barrel load, a lorry load, a container load, and and go try some of this stuff out well. Thank you for listening, whether you've been catching us in the car, at the gym, at the pool, wherever you are, listening to your podcasts. I hope you've enjoyed this episode, and Christy and I will be back in two weeks' time with another guest and another great conversation. Thanks for joining us, and bye for now.