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With Ted Turnau
278 Plays2 months ago
It's movie night! Why not invite some friends round to watch a great film together? Did you know it can be a great time to start gospel conversations? Films are one of the biggest pieces of shared popular culture we have, and the good ones tap into themes and passions that we all care about - redemption, good and evil, purpose, justice. Today's guest shares his Movie Night Kit so you can explore them with your friends.
Ted Turnau is Chair of Arts, Culture, and Literature at Anglo-American University, Prague, Czech Republic, where he teaches classes in culture, media, and religion. He is also an author and speaker on Christian cultural engagement. His books include Popologetics: Popular Culture in Christian Worldview, The Pop Culture Parent: Helping Kids Engage their World for Christ (with Stephen Burnett and Jared Moore), and most recently, Oasis of Imagination: Engaging Our World through a Better Creativity and Imagination Manifesto (with Ruth Naomi Floyd).
Find the Movie Night Kit and more resources at tedturnau.com
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Well hello everybody and welcome to a new edition of pep talk the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solas. As you know if you're a regular listener every fortnight we we interview we chat to someone who is involved in sharing the gospel and and over the last few years we've spoken to people with all kinds of different places theologians, businessmen, church leaders, parents, missionaries, all of whom are doing something interesting to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with those all around
Meet Ted Turner: This Week's Guest
00:00:35
Speaker
them.
00:00:35
Speaker
This week, I've been really looking forward to because my guest this week is Ted Turner. And he is the chair of arts, culture and literature at Anglo-American University in Prague in the Czech Republic, where he teaches classes in culture, media and religion. And I heard him doing a guest lecture, a course I was attending last year. And when I heard him talking about the way that he shares the gospel, I thought, I need to get this man on pep talk, because this is really, really interesting. And it's taken a while for us to bring our diaries together. But now at last, Ted is here. Hi, Ted, how are you?
00:01:05
Speaker
Great. Nice to see you. From Winston. Winston, Salem, North Carolina. Right. So you're not actually in the Czech Republic at the moment. You're back in the States. We're back in the States for for a hiatus, for a six month break from Prague. So not just ah not just the normal summer holiday from lecturing, you're actually having a bit of but of time back at home. ah Yes. we We have to do so every five years for it's complicated, but I call it an enforced sabbatical.
00:01:33
Speaker
And what time of the day is it with you? Because we're kind of mid-afternoon here in the UK. Where are you? It is two minutes after 9 a.m. So okay just having my morning coffee, just getting into the flow of the day.
00:01:46
Speaker
It's not too anti-social, is it? Occasionally, we've had guests from Australia and New Zealand, and we do kind of ask them to get up at three in the morning. Wow. 9am. Yeah, we're okay with that.
Film and Gospel: Bridging the Cultural Gap
00:01:55
Speaker
Now, the course that I met you on last year, when when i when we crossed paths online, was a film about looking at popular culture in general and film in particular.
00:02:04
Speaker
And you gave us a really interesting sort of little class that day on how to use film for sharing the gospel. Now, briefly, why do you use film? What is it about film that attracts you? And why is film a useful medium for stirring up debates which can help us to share our faith with those that don't know Christ? um There's a couple things really. ah Number one, I think that ah And I'm speaking as an American, I know the American context best, but um Christians tend to be viewed as sort of weird outsiders, ah odd, parochial, antique sort of people. And part of that is justified because Christians just don't understand the culture of the moment.
00:02:57
Speaker
They don't understand the cultural mood. They don't understand a lot of the symbols, a lot of the narratives. And film carries a lot of those narratives.
00:03:10
Speaker
like if you went through the summer of 2023 and you saw neither Barbie nor Oppenheimer, what is wrong with you? What is going on? there's that Because there were so many discussions, like last year when we we still do movie discussion nights for my students, when I when i said, well, we've got to do Barbie.
00:03:37
Speaker
Um, that was the movie night of the season. Like okay all of my students, not all of my students, uh, like maybe 17, 20 of my students, all of whom were females, except for one dude who was a boyfriend tagging along. All of them came. They all had something to say. They all wanted to, they all fiercely wanted to discuss this movie.
Understanding Societal Narratives Through Pop Culture
00:04:03
Speaker
and and And I think it's a problem when Christians exempt themselves from those sorts of conversations saying, oh, no, no, no, no, we're we're not concerned with that sort of stuff. we're not We're too holy to deal with that sort of thing. um What you're saying is,
00:04:24
Speaker
i don't really care about the issues or the feelings that most of the human race is going through in your part of the world, I'd rather be over here in my little bubble. And that that I believe Gavin is the death knell of evangelism, of any sort of opportunity for relationship.
00:04:48
Speaker
so um So, ah there i mean movies, television, ah to a lesser extent, popular novels, to an even lesser extent, podcasts. The music,
00:05:02
Speaker
All of that popular culture really does tell a story about where the culture is at the moment, um what the the vibe is, you know what what sort of things are really weighing on people's minds. Even memes, like I habitually scroll memes. And what I know from that subsection of the culture is a lot of anger over economy.
00:05:32
Speaker
a lot of depression, a lot of anxiety, a lot of thoughts of suicide, a lot of ah a lot of aggression towards the current political system. All of those are worthy of discussion. And and none of that I would be keyed into without getting into popular culture. so And i think meme I think films do a lot of what those memes do, except they do it in longer form, in a more considered way. um and And that's a goldmine if you really care about people and want to relate to them where they are, rather than making them come to where you are.
00:06:15
Speaker
Does that make sense? Yes, because at first the first time that I ever came across a Christian film night, it was a nightmare. And because they invited people into our space into the church and showed them a very cheesy Christian film on our terms, and it just didn't didn't work at all. Whereas really, you're talking about the the opposite of that is kind of going into the into the world so that we can understand where people are and and relate to them. Do you not also think that when you watch a film with somebody, it's almost a kind of a shared experience?
00:06:40
Speaker
If you sit alongside someone, watch the film, ah and you go through the same kind of emotions with them, and that can open up remarkable conversations sometimes. Yes, but I don't want to gloss over what you said. The phrase cheesy Christian film kind of jumped out at me. And just just to put it book plug time, um the latest the latest book I did, which is called Oasis of Imagination, deals with the problem of cheesy Christian films among others and saying, you know, I think it would be great if you invite people into the space of the church and show them a non cheesy Christian film. The problem is there just aren't a lot of non cheesy Christian films out there at the moment. In fact, they are rare as hen's teeth.
00:07:31
Speaker
And that's because the church, by and large, has not engaged creatives, the creative professions, the way that we ought to have done. We've kind of ceded that territory to secular culture makers. Not entirely. It's getting better, but we've still got a long way to go. so That's not exactly on topic, but that's a concern, and I think that that Christians ought to be concerned about how little we engage the popular imagination as Christians, but that's a whole other discussion.
Secular Films and Gospel Themes
00:08:09
Speaker
we'll have to Absolutely. You'll have to invite me back. so um
00:08:14
Speaker
Well, let's go into then the idea, how how can watching a secular film with someone, how can that be a bridge for the gospel? Can you maybe give us an example of the way that a ah secular film, going into the secular world with with someone's, you know, entering into their worldview, entering into their world, watching the film with them, how can that be a bridge towards talking about the things of God? Because as you said, historically, the church has somewhat sort of backed off from Hollywood and gone, oh, that's horrible. That's nasty. Let's not go there. How can it be used as a bridge for the gospel itself?
00:08:45
Speaker
I think it all hinges on what you think the gospel is. Most evangelicals have a very narrow definition of the gospel. That is, Jesus died for my sins and was raised for my justification. And it's very much about individual salvation, right? It's all about Jesus and me and he died for me and he raised for me and he walks with me and he talks with me and and so forth.
00:09:12
Speaker
um I would not deny that that is the center of the gospel, justification by faith, sanctification by the Spirit. I'm all for that. that's That's great. But if that's all the gospel is, then you have a very, very denuded version of the gospel, a very minimalist gospel, because as I understand it, as I read scripture,
00:09:35
Speaker
the gospel speaks to everything that God cares about. When you said, how can film, how can secular film be a bridge to the things of God? I dare you to name something that is not a thing of God. shit Right? it's we It's not just church. It's not just Bible study. It is your sex life. It is politics. It is ah matters of social justice, matters of beauty, matters of nature, matters of everything. What was Kuiper's little quip?
00:10:17
Speaker
You know, there is not one square inch of creation over which Jesus Christ does not say, this is mine. and And Christians, I think wrongly, have taken that to say, therefore, we need to go on a crusade and make sure that every single piece of creation ah that we pounded into submission so that it's more Christian-y.
00:10:40
Speaker
I think better would be to say that every piece of creation speaks something of God. That's what theologians call general revelation.
00:10:52
Speaker
and that ah And speaks something of common grace, that is, of God's generosity and good and love for everyone in the world.
00:11:03
Speaker
just by
Common Grace and General Revelation Explained
00:11:04
Speaker
the fact that he's given us air to breathe and sunshine and and great art and governments that are not continually collapsing. And and I'm saying this as an American.
00:11:17
Speaker
and saw and And beauty and decent marriages and children and all of that stuff, even though it doesn't scream Jesus,
00:11:29
Speaker
it is still a gift of God, and that's your bridge. Pre-suppositional apologetics, Vantil, ah i've I had a debate with, a little ah friendly Twitter debate with a Twitter mutual that I have, and he was like, ah you you apologist, you've pre-suppositional, it's all about the antithesis, it's all about how they're wrong and we're right. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
00:11:55
Speaker
It's all about common grace. It's all about how secular people enjoy these things. and rightly acknowledge them, but they fall short of acknowledging who gave them. and And none of these gifts in the end makes sense without putting them in the framework, in the context of the God who gave them. right Now, that's i'm I'm starting to get a little technical, but what it means is when you're watching a movie and somebody says, oh, that's cool, or oh, that's beautiful, or
00:12:32
Speaker
that was really moving what that character said at that point. That's where you drill down and you and you say, okay, why was it moving? Why was it cool? Why was it... And they will inevitably get to, well, because she showed such love to this person who was hurting or It was just so good to watch this character who's been held down the whole film just burst out and justice is done, right? and you get these And inevitably you'll be led into these bigger themes of justice and mercy and forgiveness and death and resurrection and all sorts of things that if you just leave it at the, oh, that was cool, then you'll never get there.
Engaging with Challenging Backgrounds
00:13:21
Speaker
you can't like when you're you have to be willing to sort of drill down a little bit, dig deeper and and say, okay, tell me your reasons where you come from. And those reasons may not always agree. Like your value set and this other person's value set may not always agree, but there will always be some point of contact unless you're dealing with just a deeply perverse person who just is takes pleasure in
00:13:53
Speaker
being dark and depraved. and those are generally not like there's There's other things we could say with those people. like I've had really interesting ah a really interesting series of con con conversations with a student who has turned to the Church of Satan.
00:14:16
Speaker
you know It's really fascinating once you get in there. I don't think he's on his way to the gospel, but ah but i I think I did some correcting of his vision of what the gospel was, which is something, right? yeah So um so just ah just see where you can find that shared wisdom, that shared affection for the good, the true, the beautiful.
00:14:45
Speaker
And then discuss about why it's good, why it's true, why it's beautiful, how do you know? um Or flip side, strong negative emotions against something can be just as telling, right? If you have somebody who says, I really couldn't stand that character. I really couldn't and Ari, what was it about that ticked him off?
00:15:07
Speaker
He was always putting people down. He was always so snarky and smug, and I hate that. and' like All right, why is snarkiness and smugness bad? Well, because you can't treat human beings like that. Okay, well.
00:15:21
Speaker
how should you treat human beings? Well, you should respect them. All right, why should you respect human beings? I mean, you obviously don't respect this human being, but why should we in general, and just keep going from there, you'll get to the image of God. Like theology, theology is always lurking at the periphery of these conversations, always, if you're willing to go there. Now,
00:15:49
Speaker
I do have to confess that I've been doing these movie nights for 25 years or so. wow I rarely, rarely come away thinking I did ah an adequate job. i always and And the reason is um like we we do our thing in Prague, which is atheist country by and large. We have a lot of Americans and the Evangelical Church in America has done a lot of things to make ah the gospel unwelcome in people's lives.
00:16:29
Speaker
yeah And so, I need to be very careful how I tread, how I lead these discussions. Because if I come on too strong and try to shoehorn a gospel message in there, um which I've done sometimes, then inevitably people start looking at their watches and say, oh gosh, look at the time, I have to catch my tram.
00:16:54
Speaker
got a class in the morning or whatever. ah They can't do that because it's Friday nights, but ah there's this party I need to get to and they'll just make their excuses and go. sure so um So my operating theory is try to show a glimpse of the gospel, like treat the gospel as a many faceted jewel and just show one facet.
00:17:19
Speaker
Just one hint. And then over time, as they get more facets, they'll start putting together a composite picture. And then if they're more interested, if you have people who are coming regularly, that means their interest isn't just in the movie. It's more in the conversation itself.
00:17:39
Speaker
And those are the people that we invite to ah to a Bible study. if If there's enough interest, we'll start a by Bible study.
Criteria for Film Selection and Discussion Leading
00:17:48
Speaker
um So there's a lot of times where at two in the morning, I'll like, oh, I should have said that thing. And that could have led deeper. And and and i I could have been a little more bold there, I think. I i was a little too subtle.
00:18:08
Speaker
so and and so it's it's um yeah I mean, just get ready for some frustration. There have been some times where we've just where it just nails it, um where we have hit that kind of sweet spot. so But um you need the right kind of student mix to do that. You need the right kind of you need the right kind of relationships and interaction for that. what What makes a good film? What films for you have provoked the best discussions? And how much do you prepare the questions before the film or just let it go openly? That's a two part question. How do you choose a good film? How much preparation do you put into the discussion? Okay, so I my rule of thumb is I will not
00:18:55
Speaker
inflict a movie upon my students that I would not once, that I would not happily sit through twice. So um the movies that that don't tend to work well are real dogmatic movies. Barbie is an exception. bobbye Barbie was very dogmatic, but it did it in such a playful post-modern way that it didn't come across as real heavy, although it really was, but it was something we could talk about. ah But for the most part, films are much better at raising questions than proposing answers. yes right they'll They're really good at pointing out something odd or weird.
00:19:37
Speaker
um films that are Films that are very, what I'd call closed story focused, like here's the hero, he punches the the villain and justice reigns forevermore or whatever. Things that are very kind of actiony oriented.
00:19:55
Speaker
um You have to be careful with those because sometimes it's just about the action and the style. There are so the the best of those raise questions that are really worthy for discussion. But sometimes they're just kind of, yay, MCU, multiple universes. We and those are fine, but they're not going to give you a lot to talk about. Right. So you have to find the films that make you uh, that, that kind of make you go, Oh, that was interesting. And what do I think about that? And where, what would I say about that? So I'll always watch a movie be once and kind of think through what are some of the interesting things that go through it. And then once we go, the movie nights work better when you let the people who are with you,
00:20:52
Speaker
raise those things rather than you kind of lecturing through them. And that's ah and and that's a big danger for me because I'm a lecturer. I lecture. and ah And my students are used to having me lecture and lead discussions and stuff like that. And so they are they're more used to that than having awkward silences where they're thinking about things.
00:21:21
Speaker
and and so And so I have to be on my guard not to let them do what they want me to do, which is just kind of go off and tell them the meaning of the film. yeah So.
00:21:36
Speaker
ah Yeah, that's that's ah that's really helpful. Do you know what? Our time has practically gone in a flash like that. That's a few minutes has
Resources for Hosting Gospel Film Nights
00:21:45
Speaker
evaporated. Now you've put together on your website a ah ah toolkit for anybody that wants to organize a film night for sharing the gospel with their friends. Where can people get hold of your sort of gospel film night kit?
00:22:00
Speaker
tedturno dot.com, my my name dot.com, and you can get there ah under resources, I think it's called. There are some articles I've written, and one of them is the Movie Night Kit. um You can also read excerpts from all of the books that I've written. And and if I'm going to any events or anything around the UK, I'll usually post it there. So it should be like a one-stop shop.
00:22:30
Speaker
sort of expert. which i've just finished reading excellent read all about engaging a popular culture with a christian worldview and how we can use that to transmit the gospel to other people Sadly, our time has gone. We could talk about this for many more hours, I'm sure. Thank you so much, Ted, for joining us today. I do hope that inspires a few people to try doing a film night to invite all their friends in, do some food, do some hospitality and have a really helpful, good discussion that leads just through a Christian worldview. And then we pray on to talking about Jesus himself. Thank you so much for joining us,
Closing Thoughts and Prayer
00:23:10
Speaker
Ted. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, lord not Andy. Thank you, ga Gavin.
00:23:17
Speaker
And then we will be back in a fortnight's time with another guest who is sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ in their context in a particular way. And we do pray that you'll find that inspiring for you as you go forward carrying the message of Jesus to those around you who need him, who need hope, who need forgiveness of sin, need to know the God who made them, need to know why they are alive and what they are living for. So we pray that that will be a blessing to you in a fortnight's time. We look forward to seeing you then. Goodbye.