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With Tim Dieppe
21 Plays31 minutes ago
In the UK today, an increasing number of our colleagues and neighbours come from Muslim backgrounds. Although there are issues arising from the clash of Islamic theology and Western values, how can we interact constructively and lovingly with Muslims we meet? Today on PEP Talk we look at the challenge of Islam and the opportunities for sharing the gospel with those who follow it.
Tim Dieppe is Head of Public Policy at Christian Concern with a specialist interest in Islam. He regularly writes and comments in the media on Islamic affairs and is passionate about encouraging Christians to respond with confidence to the growing influence of Islam in the UK. Tim holds a degree from Oxford University and an MA in theology from Westminster Theological Centre. He co-authored Questions to Ask Your Muslim Friends with Beth Peltola. He is also the author of The Challenge of Islam published this year by Wilberforce Publications, which seeks to equip and inform Christians how best to respond to the rise of Islam in Britain.
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Well, hello everybody and welcome to another edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast from Solus. We're here every fortnight and as ever we're speaking about sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ in a world that desperately needs to hear about him.
00:00:24
Speaker
Every fortnight, a different guest, a different topic, but always about sharing Jesus.
Meet the Co-presenters
00:00:29
Speaker
My colleague today co-presenting with me is Steve Osman. Steve, are you there? Indeed, I am. Good morning, Gavin. Good to be here with you again. Feels like it's been a little while since I've been on the podcast, and so I'm excited, especially for our conversation today.
00:00:42
Speaker
Yeah, we've not co-presented many of these together. So Steve's coming to me from the other side of Perth across the river. But our guest today is coming to us all the way from the other end
Guest Introduction: Tim Dieppe
00:00:51
Speaker
of the country. Now, let you introduce yourself because we've had a discussion in the office about how to correctly pronounce your surname. So, Tim...
00:00:59
Speaker
the Deep Dieppe. How do we pronounce your surname? There's a French town. There is a French town called Dieppe. And they say that my name is exactly that name and it's pronounced the same as that French. Tim Dieppe. There you go. um
Tim Dieppe's Work at Christian Concern
00:01:13
Speaker
Yeah. So I'm head of public policy at Christian Concern. I've been with Christian Concern for nine years now, I think.
00:01:20
Speaker
I used to work in finance as a fund manager before that for about 20 years something like that. And and so it was a big transition at the time. And um yes, I'm head public policy, but I do have a particular specialist interest in and focus on Islam um and um try and keep on top of all that's happening in relation to Islam in in our country and our culture.
00:01:40
Speaker
and respond to that and write about that and go the media about that and all of that kind of stuff. But I also oversee our work on LGBT stuff, abortion, euthanasia um and secularism and various other schools, education, various other of things as well.
00:01:57
Speaker
I mean, many people have come across Christian concern. What's the the very short answer as to what the focus of your mission and ministry is for for anybody listening that doesn't know your ministry? Yeah, yeah, sure. yeah know Our strapline speaking of Jesus in public so in the public square.
00:02:12
Speaker
Speaking of Jesus in the public square. And we do that through legal cases, which we' are most well known about. And we've got some very high profile cases actually kicking off today. um So we often help street preachers um who sometimes get arrested and sometimes charged um by the police and lots of other people who've yeah run into trouble for expressing their Christian faith. so um And we also yeah lobby government and respond to consultations and and engage people.
00:02:36
Speaker
in the media and and in in what's happening in Synod and so on in terms of the cultural effects and and how Christianity is being influenced.
Tim Dieppe's Interest in Islam
00:02:44
Speaker
That's a lot of really important stuff. um So, yeah, thanks for for raising that. I think many people now know where to go if they know someone who's maybe wrapped up in something like that and doesn't know where to turn.
00:02:55
Speaker
um But along with that, you have spent a lot of time specifically, as you alluded to, ah studying Islam and studying Islam in in the West. um So maybe could you just tell us a little bit about why that's such an area of passion and why you spend so much time dedicating study to that?
Discussion on Islamic Finance and Sharia Law
00:03:15
Speaker
Sure. Well, um for me, I think like many people, you know I watched what happened on 9-11 back in 2001 when I was working in the city and I saw it almost live on the big screens in the office.
00:03:26
Speaker
And I'd heard of suicide bombers at the time, but I thought they must be poor, illiterate, easily manipulable people. And here were trained, highly trained, well-paid, highly educated pilots.
00:03:39
Speaker
who were motivated to have such disregard for human life. And I thought, what is this worldview? What is this ideology? What is this religion? I need to understand it better. And so I basically started studying Islam at that point and reading up about Islam in various ways and became concerned about what I read. And then I came across Islamic finance.
00:03:58
Speaker
And I thought, well, I'll work in finance. ought to study that as well. So I read up about that and found that it's based on a modern, radical interpretation of the Koran that bans interest, where most Muslims throughout history and still today are very happy to use interest.
00:04:12
Speaker
and But our Western governments and financial institutions have pandered to this radical interpretation of Islam by creating Sharia financial products. And I came across an imam who called Taki Osmani, who was a Sharia advisor. In fact, I think he was chair of the Sharia Advisory Board at HSBC.
00:04:31
Speaker
And he'd written a book in English. And in this book, he raises a hypothetical question. Do we still need to wage jihad in a country like Britain, where we can freely preach Islam and build mosques? And he answers the question by saying,
00:04:44
Speaker
According to the Quran, killing should continue until they pay the jizya tax. That's the subjugation tax for non-Muslims. And i was like, wow, this guy is a full-on radical Muslim. That is what he wants, full-on Sharia law.
00:04:57
Speaker
And he's chairing the Sharia advisory board of HSBC. And i so I wrote to a friend at HSBC and said, you know, you think this chap is appropriate for your advisory board? And he passed it on to compliance and they quickly got rid of him.
00:05:09
Speaker
But it kind of opened my eyes to the real agenda here. And I sort of started praying for opportunities to talk about Islam and explain what's happening about is Islam. And the answer to prayer I got was exactly not what I wanted. I was asked to run a Sharia fund.
00:05:23
Speaker
sort it would have been my name, Tim Dieppe, manager of Sharia fund. And I was like, no, I don't want to do this. yeah Sharia discriminates against women and non-Muslims. We shouldn't do it as a team or as a firm either.
00:05:33
Speaker
But nobody was listening to me. I reached out for help, connected with Christian Concern. And started sort of working behind the scenes a bit with Christian Concern on Islam. And some, maybe six years later, I think, I ended up um deciding to join the team here with a particular focus on Islam. So that's kind of my story in a nutshell, if that
Islamic Culture vs Judeo-Christian Values
00:05:54
Speaker
helps you. And in your latest book, The Challenge of Islam, which was published, I think, only this month, wasn't it? So it's a sort of pretty... Last month, now, February.
00:06:01
Speaker
Probably soon, February. twenty February, yeah. um you've You've looked at some of the kind of the touch points where... some of the extremes of Islamic culture really conflict with the liberal values which have been rooted in Judeo-Christian culture.
00:06:15
Speaker
Finance was the one that opened the whole discussion for you because that was your background. Which are the kind of key touch points where those two cultures are colliding are particularly significant at the moment?
Critiquing Islamophobia and Free Speech
00:06:27
Speaker
Well, ah for me, free speech is a really, really big one. And you may know there's been this um proposed definition of Islamophobia called the APPG, definition stands for All-Party Parliamentary Group, because it was proposed originally by the All-Party Parliamentary Group on British Muslims, that defines Islamophobia as rooted in racism and a type of racism that targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.
00:06:52
Speaker
And um and there's there's huge problems with this definition because, you know, what is Muslimness? Who knows? It could be anything. Could include the Islamic beliefs and practices, for example, or teachings of Islam.
00:07:03
Speaker
And then perceived Muslims is even broader. i mean, anybody could perceive it as Islamophobic. So it basically creates a kind of de facto or in practice um blasphemy code on Islam. And many...
00:07:13
Speaker
Actual political parties have formally adopted this definition of the Labour Party, the Democrat Party, Green Party, Plaid Cymru, S&P, all the Scottish political parties, mainstream parties actually have adopted this definition.
00:07:25
Speaker
So politicians and members those parties know they say something deemed Islam-afavorite, they could be disciplined or expelled from that party, which creates a kind of Islamic blasphemy code for most of our politicians when you think about it.
00:07:37
Speaker
um So this is something I'm very concerned about. And just as we started Ramadan this year, this is last Friday as we record now, the government announced a new working group tasked with defining Islamophobia for an official government definition.
00:07:51
Speaker
and um And I think I'm very concerned about how that leaves us in terms of free speech in relation to Islam.
Cultural Muslims and Evangelism Opportunities
00:07:58
Speaker
Yeah, that's, um again, a lot of stuff that's, I think, at the the higher level that maybe people just aren't im very aware of. I mean, you've mentioned a few things there that um I'm just as a, you know, person in the street, not not aware of.
00:08:11
Speaker
um And in your in your writing, obviously, you are highly critical of things like that in the political sphere, freedom of speech, um being frustrated.
00:08:22
Speaker
um but just It feels to me like there's maybe there's that side and then there's a bit of a gap when it comes to, okay, well, I'm you know just living out my my daily life um and I've got some friends who may be from Pakistani origin, guys down at the cricket club, who whatever it might be, who – You know, that that whole sphere, that picture you painted seems a world away from what I'm experiencing and the the guys I'm meeting who just seem to be, yes, they identify as as Muslim, um but are just kind of living out their daily life. Just down the road from me, there's ah a corner shop and I have ah really good conversations with the guys there who would all definitely identify Muslim. So ah why the gap?
00:09:08
Speaker
um I think there's a real cultural difference here that as Christians, we're used to being encouraged to read the Bible and understand and ask questions and get explanations and all of that. Whereas in Islamic or Arabic culture, that is not the way you're actually not encouraged in and cultural Muslims, let's say. And when we we talk about cultural Christians who yeah don't really have a faith, well, they would have a similar idea of cultural Muslims are not encouraged to read the Koran properly.
00:09:33
Speaker
for themselves in a language they understand. They might be encouraged to learn how to recite it in Arabic, but there's no sort of attempt to help people understand what that means in English very often. And also asking questions is discouraged. So it's seen as rude and offensive to sort of ask your imam.
00:09:50
Speaker
some question about what this faith really means or why we really believe this and that kind of thing. So they're not yeah encouraged, of course, now, because you know people growing up in this country have been through a Western education and they are more interested to ask questions or talk to us questions or see the value of asking questions. So you do see more of that, but don't expect your Muslim friend who's running the corner shop or in local cricket shop to necessarily know very much about what the Quran says.
00:10:14
Speaker
um yeah that They may well call themselves a Muslim, may well yeah maybe practice some of the five pillars or whatever, um But that're They're more cultural than actual practicing, most of them, many of them.
00:10:27
Speaker
um and um And you'll find they don't know necessarily that much about what Islam really
Critiquing Islam with Love and Truth
00:10:32
Speaker
teaches. And actually, this is very interesting point, because when you explain what Islam teaches, you know, and now it's readily available on the internet, you know, translations of the Quran, the Hadith and all that, a lot of Muslims do end up being really challenged by realizing, gosh, is that really what Muhammad said and what Islam teaches, and leaving the faith as a result. So there's an opening there for evangelism.
00:10:51
Speaker
You mentioned the the the issue of Islamophobia. How do we offer a fair, realistic, and loving critique of the problems that we observe in Islamic theology without appearing or even being misperceived as being a kind of dog whistle for the far right? I mean, for example, when they were putting a planning application for a new mosque in Perth – that fascist groups came up from England and and held a parade through Perth. But it was it was a hate mob.
00:11:16
Speaker
And we wouldn't want to be associated with that in any way. But how can we critique Islam and engage with its ideas without even being misrepresented as as providing or justifying a platform for for hatred? Because one of the things in your book is you you draw a very strong comparison with the life of Christ and that of Mohammed.
00:11:35
Speaker
And the way that, you know, Jesus sort says, love your enemies, and he healed the Roman soldiers' ears when Peter cut it off. This is his method. Whereas Muhammad clearly in many texts that you cite in the Quran advocates the use of the sword.
00:11:47
Speaker
So how can we lovingly critique without coming across as, you know, even a front for hatred? um Well, I mean, hatred is in your heart, isn't it? So you know what what your motivation is, right? Whether you're doing it out of love or not.
00:12:04
Speaker
The Bible does say, speak the truth in love. Jesus, you know, did, you know, read Matthew 25, right? And Jesus' critique of Pharisees, right? You know, it's pretty offensive there. Right. Very blunt in in some of what he said.
00:12:18
Speaker
And I don't think we should be afraid to something know risk being called is Islamophobic for the sake of the gospel. You know, I know Hatton Tash is an incredible evangelist to Muslims who we've helped at Christian Concern. We've helped to get compensation for wrongful arrest by the police for criticizing it Islam. Her testimony is that, you know, she tried saying God loves you to Muslims and nobody ever became a Christian.
00:12:40
Speaker
was only when she said Islam, Mohammed is a false prophet. and things like that. But then a conversation ensued and and some discussion and dialogue. And, you know, she's seen about a thousand Muslims convert to Christianity and including about 16 Imams.
00:12:56
Speaker
Right. And actually, you know, some blunt, open confrontation is appropriate. And I think sometimes required. And we need to get over our fear of being called or deemed Islamophobic.
00:13:08
Speaker
Because we know we're speaking the truth in love. And Muslims are the greatest victims of Islam. You know, they're leading them astray. leading them you know down the wrong path, you know, and it's lying to them.
00:13:18
Speaker
And so they need to hear the gospel. They need to hear the truth. They need to be confronted with it. And I think often they are open to a kind of direct and sometimes blunt question. But obviously you can ask very simple questions like, why are you a Muslim?
00:13:30
Speaker
You know, what could be Islam effect about that? Or what difference does being a Muslim make in your life? Or what what difference does prayer make to you? You know, how did you become a Muslim? You know, and what made you decide Islam is true and not Christianity? what yeah And then, you know, you get into the more obvious, like you're saying, you know, why would you follow Muhammad when you can follow Jesus?
00:13:49
Speaker
know, when Jesus rose from the dead, Muhammad didn't rise on the dead. why So why would you follow Muhammad You know, Jesus healed people, Muhammad harmed people. So why would you follow him when you can follow Jesus? You know, and Jesus treated women with respect and dignity and Muhammad didn't, you know, and you can go on and on and on like this, you know, and and actually when you do that, you know, it wasn't until claimed to revere Jesus, but they don't actually worship him. They don't actually believe his claims and so on. And so this is a great, obvious opening, like compare Muhammad to Jesus, easy to do.
00:14:19
Speaker
And that's a great way to get straight to the heart of the gospel. We were following and worshiping Jesus. why aren't you?
Engaging Muslims in Faith Conversations
00:14:24
Speaker
I find that really helpful because, um, I've looked at a few times, you know, on YouTube, you can find these guys who are and really reaching out to Muslims. so You know, down at Speaker's Corner, you see these debates ensue. And I look at that, I'm like, oh, man, I can't do that. um yes Do I need to become that person with all this this knowledge about Islam before I can even have a conversation with someone? And so I think that alone might just put, you know, if there's a young Christian trying to share their faith at university, for instance,
00:14:54
Speaker
um that looking at that might actually put them off thinking, oh, this is just too much of a mountain for me to climb. um But it seems like you've just, you know, thrown out a few really um easy kind of questions there. So going back to, you know, the guys down on the corner shop, who I'm starting to have some conversations with, um what do you think is the the best way to then start engaging them,
00:15:19
Speaker
um in a way that shows them something of Christ. um You know, you mentioned that they they might not have as much knowledge about Islam. I wrote this book um previously called Questions to Ask Your Muslim Friends with my friend Beth Peltler for exactly this reason to try and encourage Christians that is, know, you don't need to be an expert.
00:15:42
Speaker
but and And I think people feel like, oh, ah yeah I like the kind of thing you just said. i I'm not an expert. I don't know all these facts. yeah i kindt And then they feel too afraid to engage their Muslim friends in conversations about faith. Well, actually, you're an expert in your own faith, like why you're a Christian. You're the world's leading expert in why you personally are a Christian. So there you are, you've got an opening right there. And, you know, and you can just start with simple questions like why are you a Muslim or how do you become Muslim? of Exactly. These kind of things. And this is what the book sort of suggests, you know, these kind of questions. And Jesus asked lots of questions. It's actually modeling, you know, or following Jesus's modeled example of asking, I think he asked over 100 questions in the Gospels.
00:16:19
Speaker
um And then yeah comparing Jesus of Muhammad, like I said, it but also um yeah the book then leads you into some more advanced questions about why does the Quran say this or why is there this problem in the Quran, that kind thing.
00:16:31
Speaker
you know But you yeah the idea is to suggest loads and loads of questions, some requiring no knowledge really. You don't need any knowledge to ask somebody why you're a Muslim or how did you become a Muslim or what what What made you decide is Islam is true. you know um And then you don't need very much knowledge to compare Muhammad and Jesus either.
00:16:47
Speaker
you know And then if you want to, you can get into some questions about what the Quran says as well. and um And he's trying to encourage Christians to give Christians confidence that you can talk your Muslim friends and neighbors so um about faith. It's not that difficult and and you know and and you don't need to be an expert to do it and You know, you could always come back and say, oh, I don't need don't know the answer to that now. Let me come back to you if there's a really difficult question that comes up. yeah what's yeah let's Let's be unafraid to do that sometimes.
Recommended Resources for Interfaith Understanding
00:17:17
Speaker
So what kind of resources would you recommend for people to read, both for those who are Christians who want to become more articulate? And, you know, ah you you mentioned your book. Mention that again in a second. But also, if you have a Muslim friend, what might be something that might be helpful to to give to them? Where would you recommend that people go and and find out more about all these things?
00:17:34
Speaker
Well, depends how interested and willing they are to read a book, you know, and not everyone is um up for that. But obviously the the famous book, um Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabil Qureshi, is a fantastic book for Christians and non-Christians and Muslims are starting to read, you know, this book.
00:17:51
Speaker
Nabil Qureshi tells his story about um being brought up Muslim and and you know quite i'm proud of his faith, um but then being evangelized by David Wood and then starting to ask lots of questions. And it took him quite a long time. it's quite a journey. And I don't think we should expect it to be easy for Muslims to come to faith but there was a lot of apologetics that he had to get over to you know make his understanding and a lot of it was about understanding gosh yeah i didn't know that mohammed said this or mohammed said that the quran says this or the hadith say that and so on and that that really raising big questions for him about his faith
00:18:25
Speaker
And also, you know, supernatural experiences, you know, one or two dreams and things that really confirm to him that this is the right thing to do. And so we need to pray for that from Muslim friends as well, I think, because very often that is required um in getting them to take the step of faith, to a big step of faith to move away from Islam to Christianity. So, yeah, Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus by Nabil Qureshi is a great resource um on this as well.
Tim's Book and Christian Concern Resources
00:18:47
Speaker
And then your book is? just Just called Questions to Ask Your Muslim Friends. Okay, Questions Ask Your Muslim Friends. Where can people get hold of that? On Amazon, yeah. It's by me and Beth Peltola.
00:18:58
Speaker
Brilliant. then And then Challenge of Islam is also on Amazon as well, the Challenge of Islam. Challenge of Islam on Amazon as well. Steve. i And if there's – is there any way else? ah do you Do you write any websites that we could direct people to? Yeah, no, well, christianconcern.com is obviously our website at Christian Concern. And if you go to – there's an issues tab. There's an Islam – tab under that. We have about 12 different issues that we campaign on, but yeah, all our articles and updates. And if you want to sign up for our emails, christmasone.com forward slash hello, and free to receive our emails weekly, updating you on a various cases and issues and stuff. So yeah, please do that.
00:19:39
Speaker
Brilliant. Thank you so much. Unbelievably, our time has gone like that and a flop hash has seemed to go so quickly. We've covered a lot there. What we'll do is we'll put all the resources that Tim has mentioned in the last 20 minutes into the show notes with links you can click through Find the link to christianconcern.com and to the two books that we've discussed today, Questions to Ask Your Muslim Friend and The Challenge of Islam by Tim Diepp.
00:20:01
Speaker
Thank you, Steve. Thank you, Tim, for joining
Closing Remarks and Future Teasers
00:20:03
Speaker
us. I hope that's been really insightful and encouraging for the folks listening and will spur us on to be witnesses for Jesus Christ in the world. It's been amazing this week to read both about the increasing persecution of the church in various Muslim crunches, including Iran, but yet the the relentless growth of Christ's church in places like that so we continue to witness and to pray that the Lord would grow his church and bring many people from you know every tribe, tongue and nation to himself.
00:20:31
Speaker
Thank you for joining us. Come back and join us again in a fortnight when we will have another interesting guest who will tell us something else to inspire us in our job that the Lord has commissioned us to share the gospel with the world. Thank you for listening and goodbye.