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00:00:01
With Ben Franks
218 Plays17 days ago
With a rich Christian heritage, but a bleak spiritual present, Wales is in desperate need of the Gospel right now. God is not unaware of the situation however, and is calling people to pray, share the Word and plant new churches right now. Andy and Gavin chat with a leader of 100 Cyrmu and hear about the vision for 100 new churches in the next 10 years!
Visit 100Cyrmu and sign up to pray for Wales.
Ben Franks planted Hope Church Rhondda with his wife Lois in 2013. The church meets in a converted shop on Tonypandy’s high street and is hoping to launch two new congregations in the next 12 months. Alongside leading the team at Hope, Ben chairs the board of his family’s business while Lois runs a marketing company in Pontypridd.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:10
Speaker
Well hello and welcome to another exciting episode of pep talk. I am Andy Bannister from Solas and I'm joined in the co-presenters chair for this episode by my Solas colleague, fellow evangelist and partner in crime. All kinds of attributes we could use for for Gavin. Gavin, great to have you with us today. I'm still doing Andy, how are you doing? Are you alright? I'm doing very well. Well, we've got a very special guest.
Meet Ben Franks
00:00:35
Speaker
lined up today. We like to cover all parts of the UK and indeed the world on pep talk and we have certainly been around this septed aisle over the few years this show has been running but one part of the UK where we have had not as many guests as perhaps others from is ah is from Wales. So I'm really excited to to welcome to the podcast Ben Franks. Welcome to pep talk. It's great to be with you. Thanks for having me.
Gospel Needs in Rhonda Valley
00:01:00
Speaker
Now, for folks listening, if you don't know Wales and you're part of Wales, where where exactly in that great country are are you based? so Wales is west of England in the United Kingdom. American listeners, that's very good.
00:01:16
Speaker
And I live in a place called the Rhonda Valley. um We are about 20 miles northwest of Cardiff. And um yeah, in a post-industrial wasteland, really, there's 13 post-industrial valleys that run south to north, um north of the cities of South Wales, ah which makes up 1.3 million people, would you believe it? And
Church Planting Journey
00:01:40
Speaker
there's tremendous gospel need in this part of the world. So yeah, that's where I am.
00:01:45
Speaker
And you're asking for church there, is that right? Yes, um um we planted a church here 11 years ago, and I'm involved in the leadership of that still, yeah. Yeah. And as well as the, and you have a various hats, which we're obviously, I think, going to talk about on
Vision for 100 Churches in 10 Years
00:02:00
Speaker
this on this episode when when Gavin and I actually practice not interrupting. yeah So we've we've only done about 400 of these. so um So Ben, as well as the pastoring, which we'll talk about in a moment, you're also involved in a church planting network. Is that right? So tell us a bit about about about that. And then we'll perhaps dig in some of the particular, some of the challenges, some of the issues that they're in Wales for the gospel.
00:02:21
Speaker
Yeah, fab. yeah So um as I said, we planted Hope Church Rhonda 11 years ago. um We now have three congregations, small congregations, but three congregations that meet in different parts of the valley. um And so we have a real heart for church planting. um And about this time last year, it was yeah September 2023, we actually were involved in launching a church planting initiative, which we call Canterbury.
00:02:48
Speaker
Kantagumri means a hundred for Wales in Welsh. And um we felt like the Holy Spirit stood our hearts with a question, what would it take to see a hundred healthy churches planted in Wales in the next 10 years? And there are a collective of friends from all over Wales
Wales' Spiritual Heritage
00:03:05
Speaker
and the world really, and different denominations, tribes and streams working together to try and figure out what it would look like to see 100 healthy churches planted in the next 10 years. And so yeah, we have the joy of being involved in leading that, Lois and I, um and seeing some wonderful things starting to happen, which is ah yeah really encouraging.
00:03:26
Speaker
so So how did that vision come about? I mean, you were presumably sitting enjoying being a Christian somewhere, and but your your your eyes, your vision were taken outside the church where you were, and you were unsettled in some way, I assume, to do something bigger for God. How did that really come about? it's Yeah, it's a really good question. um ah So the answer might not be what you're quite expecting. I actually actually happened in the middle of
Personal Motivations and Unity
00:03:50
Speaker
the night and I had a dream. And in this dream, I saw a website with the domain name ww www.100.comry and a big banner that asked the question, what would it take to see 100 healthy churches planted in Wales in the next 10 years? And five tabs, pray, inspire, equip, send and support. And I clicked each one and there was information under each tab.
00:04:14
Speaker
You can imagine I woke up the next morning and albowed my wife. That was the first thing I did. I think God might have been speaking to me in the night. um And that was really the start of a process that that was March 2021. It actually took us two and a bit years really to I think A, figure out, A, we wanted to be sure, you know, this really was God speaking and it wasn't just the dominos from the night before, you know, or some some other, you know, grand idea. um And then b ought B, it was like, if it is God speaking, do we have the courage to do something?
00:04:51
Speaker
with it. And then the final part for us was, can we reorganize our busy lives to you know be involved in this thing that we think God might be calling us to? And so that process took us quite a long time, two and a bit years and a lot of counsel. And we came to the point where we really felt the Holy Spirit was saying that
Evangelism Challenges and Opportunities
00:05:10
Speaker
this was ah something we should pursue. And and we launched last yeah launched last September, 2023, and You know, we didn't really know what would happen, whether the whole thing would fall flat on its face, whether we'd get a whole bunch of criticism or whether people would go, we really think God might be in this and we want to join you on the journey and yeah be part of it. And that's been the overwhelming response, which has been incredibly humbling, actually, um but is leading us forward into good things.
00:05:37
Speaker
Just fantastic to hear what's happened. no I have to say that, Simon. I've heard some stories of the Lord speaking through dreams before, Ben, but never have I heard of have God actually doing a website design initiative in a dream site. i mean I just love that ah love that story. um yeah i don't i don't hear I don't get dreams every other day. you know It's very much a one-off, but it was very clear um in the morning. Just for listeners, therefore, you know if you're thinking of redesigning your Churchill Ministry website and you're looking for direction, please move your phone and go, could you be praying? the yeah the ah up the plan and that's thery i don't want
00:06:11
Speaker
To back up slightly on that, we hinted at this a bit at the start. Wales obviously is not the easiest place in the UK. As you look around the UK, there are harder places and easier places. Scotland has often been described as pretty tough. There are some parts of the UK, especially as you say, some of those post-industrial places. I remember sort of doing youth ministry years ago in Sunderland, up in the northeast, and and you know hard going. But what is it about Wales that historically, I mean, folks who don't know, given them a sort of potted history, because there's some really exciting stuff, isn't there? If you go further back, yeah and then some really tricky stuff, and then it's exciting now to see sort of green shoots happening. So so perhaps give people that sort of 30,000 foot overview of of your context. It'd be amazing.
00:06:53
Speaker
Yeah, well, um yeah you're right. Wales has an incredible um spiritual heritage. um
Community Engagement Strategies
00:07:00
Speaker
When I go talking about Canterbury around the place, I often use a quote from the famous preacher Christmas Evans. um And he basically said, you know, no other nation has been touched by the gospel like Wales has that meeting houses were erected in every corner of the land and the people, almost all of them, crowd in to listen to the gospel. That was 1835. I think from 1762 until 1905, there was a ah revival recorded in some part of Wales every single year for whatever that is, 148 years or whatever it was.
00:07:39
Speaker
um And so the history is very rich, but of course now it's somewhere between one and 2% of people would
Global Partnerships and Prayer Initiatives
00:07:50
Speaker
be Bible believing Christians. um And obviously the cities would be more and some of the rural areas and post-industrial areas less. um And so I often say to people, and I can't prove this, but we may have seen in Wales the steepest decline of the church, of any nation in the history of the church, to go from you know where we planted in Tonopandy, there was 12 chapels on our high street, um enough and enough enough seats for 8,000 people in a town of 8,000 people because everybody was going to church.
00:08:27
Speaker
you know um and Yeah, now it's just it's just very different to that. We've seen very, very steep decline. And I think that um that kind of a thing is true. you know People say that one generation receives the gospel, the next generation assumes the gospel, and the next generation is it rejects the gospel or something like that. I think because of the rich spiritual heritage, but then also the decline that we've seen. There's a real hardness in the culture to um to spiritual things. And there are signs that that's beginning to change. I don't know whether anybody's discussed the Talk Jesus survey on your podcast at any point, but it seems that
00:09:14
Speaker
It seems that there is a new a new open openness coming, and I'm hoping that with that, there's also a re-mobilizing of the church for mission because those two things need to go hand in hand to really make a difference.
00:09:27
Speaker
I love the way that the the decline of the church bothers you. And the the reason for that is, you know, as people involved in evangelism, that the text in Scripture we often go to is Acts 17 and Paul's engagement with the with the you know Athenians and their paganism. But the bit we often miss is at the beginning where it says Paul looked at the idols and the godlessness of the city and he was greatly distressed. yeah and What agitates you about the godlessness of Wales and the um the decline of the church? what What is it about that that gets under your skin and prompts you to action? Yeah. I mean, I don't know whether this quite answers the the question, but we grew up in ah what I would describe as a large Baptist church in the suburbs of Cardiff, 300 and something people.
00:10:09
Speaker
I grew up in a Christian home in a secure school in a nice community with Christian friends and a big Christian youth group and went to a great church. And it was the moment that my life changed was the moment that somebody from the Rhonda Valley ah came to our church to preach. And, you know, when he shared that less than 700 people in 83,000 people said they were regularly going to church on the census, this is 2004 or something. It just, I was 16. It just
00:10:44
Speaker
the Holy Spirit kicked me in the stomach. you know It was like, how can there be a place that is so close to home? I didn't even know the Rhonda Valley existed as a kid from the city. you know How can there be a place so close to home with such gospel need? And then of course, we convinced our youth leaders to drive us up in a minibus and it's a different world of coal mining terraces and derelict congregational non-conformist chapels everywhere and all of that stuff. And um I think one of the challenges for for us in Wales is that when you, it's the same in any culture, isn't it? When you live within the culture, you don't necessarily see the problem. um But the problem is great, you know, we've we've got 99% of our friends and family are going to a Christless eternity and the church is on its knees and, you know,
00:11:39
Speaker
is in desperate need of finding some faith and being reawakened to meet the challenge um and so yeah there's great there's great need you know um and certainly there are many moments where And I hope it continues where our hearts break and the tears come because of the need that's there. I don't want to become cold to it or become corporate in ah in the programs and ministries that we're running. Bravo, you know, it has to come out from a place of compassion and deep concern. And yeah, that the Lord broke our hearts when low I was 16 and 15. And yeah, we continue to to feel the weight of the need, you know.
00:12:22
Speaker
ah sudden That's very powerful, I think, Ben. It was a great question, I think, of Gavin's there. I think you're right. Sometimes we can take for granted the spiritual state around us. As you say, it's when our hearts start breaking and we start being able to say, okay, Lord, here am I. Send me. Things can happen.
00:12:41
Speaker
One of the other challenges I know that I've had heard others talk about in in Wales, and again, not unique to Wales, but has certainly been part of the challenger. To what extent has perhaps the division that sometimes existed among some of the churches not helped at times? That's certainly been the case in Scotland, um sort of ah I think England too. I think Thankfully in England, I think we're through the worst of that. um Scotland where things are getting better. ah How has it been in England in terms of evangelical kind of unity around around the gospel needs that you've described? Yeah, it's a really good question. i think um
00:13:15
Speaker
I can only really share my own experience. um And i don't I can't quite put my finger on the reason for this, but I think as ah as a new minister, church planter 10 or 12 years ago, i felt very um I felt very tribal and I felt very defensive about the things that I believed and the people that I wanted to work with. And I don't know whether that was ah because I was young and maybe a bit insecure, or whether that was true of the wider evangelical world at the time. um What I do know is that fast forward 10 or 12 years and I feel incredibly encouraged by the unity in the church across Wales at this moment. And I think it's something that maybe God is doing in Wales, but across the nations and maybe across the UK that there is a
00:14:10
Speaker
a realization of just how much we need one another. um And when we first launched Canterbury, the Lord spoke to me in my devotionals out of the first few verses of Joshua chapter nine. um it's And it's a very bizarre passage because it basically says that um the Hithites and the Amorites and the Pezites or theites that were ah kicking around in the land that Joshua is about to or had invaded and he'd ransacked Jericho. um It says they formed a strategic alliance because of their concerns about Joshua and his army. And I and the felt the Holy Spirit just say to me, Ben, you know,
00:14:52
Speaker
um they they were These guys formed an alliance despite their different kingdoms, despite their different cultures, and despite their different languages, because they knew who their enemy was, and they knew how great this problem or the threat was. and I felt like the Holy Spirit said to me, Ben, if they can do that, then so much more the Church of Jesus Christ in these days. um And yeah, and I shared that at a meeting last July, just just before we were going to launch Kenta Gumry and a guy put his hand up in the in the audience. and It was actually a guy called Clive Bowser, who's um part of the faculty of Union School of Theology here. And he said, do you mind if I just say something? I said, yeah, please do. Wondering if he was going to and unpick my hermeneutics or a passage on you know the enemies of Israel or something.
00:15:42
Speaker
and And he said, it strikes me that all of those different people you mentioned were all part of different kingdoms. How much more should we be able to work together if we're all in the kingdom of God? And um I just thought it was a wonderful, beautiful insight. And I think in Wales, we're just realizing that um the enemy has taken an awful lot of ground and left the church in a very weak state.
00:16:12
Speaker
And there might be we might have differences of language in Wales, we might have differences of church culture in Wales, but actually the things that bind us together in the gospel are so much bigger. you know we Unlike the 99% of people in Wales, we believe in a miraculous conception. We believe in a savior who died on a cross and miraculously rose from the grave and ascended into heaven and is one day going to return for his bride. and if we can't be mates with the people that believe that and work with them, then I think we've lost before we've even started. you know And so I'm really encouraged. um I'm regularly in rooms of of evangelicals from across the spectrum that are working together, strategizing together. Last night we were at a prayer meeting praying and there would have been, I don't know,
00:17:03
Speaker
more than 10 different denominations, networks and streams in the room, all seeking God together for the nation. And I absolutely love it. Wonderful. Now I'm debating whether I should attempt to pronounce the name of your organization or not, because as an Englishman living in Scotland, I am very nervous about mispronouncing like Scottish mountain names. So hundred for what tell me if I'm right. Cantigumery. You've practiced that. game enough okay you say oh to gummery You are pursuing a 10-year vision. How far into that vision are you at the moment? And what's been, you know, maybe a couple of highlights um from the journey so far? Yeah, great. and We are a one year in. um There are at least six churches that have been planted in the last ah year that are connecting, relating to ah the vision that we haven't formalized that in any way. um What have been the highlights? I mean, we gather
00:18:01
Speaker
every few months in a different part of Wales to pray. and Yeah. Praying with the people of God. There's a real deep hunger in the people of God in Wales at the moment to see breakthrough and the tide turning. And that has been a tremendous joy and to do that. and And it feels really worth it. you know um We are powerless to see 100 healthy churches planted in Wales in the next 10 years, but God can do a mighty thing. And so it starts starts in prayer for us. That has been wonderful.
00:18:35
Speaker
um Last January, we we gathered about 13 or 14 church planting couples from around Wales for what we call the reset retreat. and it was basically The idea was a relational weekend, but the focus on how do we make sure we're all still in the game 12 months later? you know What do we need to be doing? We looked at dealing with disappointment and rhythms of Sabbath and rest and just the relationships and the being... you know Church planting is hard, but church planting in a community of church planters is a whole lot easier than church planting in isolation when you're on your own. And so the joy of just connecting church planters together has been really wonderful.
00:19:24
Speaker
um And yeah, I think just a sense that God is at work. you know We don't have all of the answers. um We probably have very few, but um there's also a wonderful adventures now of stepping out in faith and seeing God at work and seeing God providing and meeting needs in different ways. And that's been a real joy for us, which we've loved.
00:19:50
Speaker
so we've We've talked a bit about the sort history of Wales and what's going on in terms of unity and and prayer, which has been really both encouraging and and and challenging. We've sort of got sort of four or five minutes kind of kind of to go. One question I was intrigued, Ben, is as you step outside the four walls of the church and you begin engaging people who've you know come with that kind of background of, you know I think you, one point, you're so quite suspicious about kind of sort of truth What are you finding? I don't hesitate to use the word works because it turns to evangelism to pragmatism. But but form event work what are you finding works? How are you engaging? Because you're always doing first contact evangelism there in some ways. So what are you what are you doing to try and connect with people who perhaps are in church offers completely irrelevant to their lives? so Yeah, it's a really good question. um I didn't think we
00:20:38
Speaker
have all the answers. We certainly don't have the silver bullet um answer for evangelism. um What we have done in the last 10 or 12 years in our in ah in Hope Church is we've you know we we say, we'll try anything that isn't sin if it's going to help people get to know Jesus. you know um So we do a lot of community outreach and initiatives to build credibility and build relationships that has looked like Five aside, it's looked like toddlers. It's looked like debt management and money help. It's looked like fun days. It looks like Cornhole Club at the moment. it looked yeah what Whatever will help us engage with people. um We've also found Alpha, the Alpha course to be something that has really served us. um
00:21:29
Speaker
and one ah One of the things I think that's most powerful about how we've run Alpha courses has been that we um we always start the evening with a testimony of somebody, normally local, somebody from the valleys, a story of what God has done to transform somebody's life. And we've almost found that by running when we run Alpha, it's almost the coming to hear a story of a transformed life, which is more powerful.
00:21:56
Speaker
than the alpha video necessarily. I think it's both and, but you know we're in a region where education levels are reasonably low, where illiteracy is pretty high. I don't think people are coming at it from a philosophical or critical point of view. and they just want to They're just looking for something. They're looking for life. you know They're looking for something that is better than what they have. And we found that the testimonies of transformed lives has really um helped us with that. um But like I say, I don't think we we have all the answers. We we we came to the Ronda. We decided we were going to try and love people as best we could. And as we love people and serve people, it gave us opportunity to talk about our savior and our hope. um And sometimes that produces new life and sometimes
00:22:54
Speaker
it produces nothing or even enemies, but we're just also committed to sowing seed and trusting God that he' He's promised to bear fruit you know and bring a harvest. And where can people find out more about what you're doing? And I know you're looking for partners around the world to join you in prayer for Wales. How can people sign up for that? How can they get involved and find out more about what you're doing?
00:23:20
Speaker
Yeah, great. so um Probably the the the best place to point you is to our website, www.100, as in the number 1, 0, 0. Here's the hard bit, Cymri, C-Y-M-R-U, www.hindr.comri.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah, and we are like we are trying to encourage people to pray for church planting and revival in Wales. um We have a a target of seeing 100 hours of prayer a day for church planting and revival in Wales, and we're asking people to commit to pray for 15 minutes a week. We figured if we get 2,800 people praying for 15 minutes a week, that's 100 hours a day of prayer for our little nation. um And so you can sign up for that on the website, but it's also, I guess, a place from which you can connect with us. And if people ah have questions or interested in finding out more about what we're doing or being connected to church plants around Wales, then you can contact us there.
00:24:22
Speaker
man Fantastic. We'll put a link to that into the show notes as well. So that means people haven't got to figure out the pronunciation. They can just click like and and sign up. Although Gavin, I mean, I think you, you know, you're on the way to being an honorary Washman. You got it.
00:24:38
Speaker
Well, Ben, it's been a real pleasure to have you on the show. It's just really, really exciting, actually, and encouraging and challenging, but really exciting to see that there's green shoots happening. And yeah and and as someone who's who's long you know had many friends in Wales and watched it from afar, I think i i alone will be going to sow the website and clicking and and signing up and encourage others to as well. So yeah, it's strength to you and we look forward to hearing the stories in the years to come of what God does through you and all the others who are involved in her and that movement there in Wales. Thanks again for joining us. Thanks Andy, thanks Gavin, thanks for your encouragement. you a prayer
00:25:15
Speaker
And wherever you are catching this podcast at home, on a run, in the bath, wherever you listen to podcasts, I hope you've enjoyed it. And don't forget to sign up to pray and we'll be back in two weeks time with another guest and another conversation. So join us then. Goodbye for now.