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With Angela Courte Mackenzie
1 Plays2 minutes ago
In a wide-ranging conversation, Andy and Gavin speak with Angela Mackenzie about the role apologetics has had in her life. Her unique blend of artistry, femininity, scholarship and cross-cultural experience are an incredible inspiration as she integrates them all in the service of Christ.
Angela Courte Mackenzie is a musician, speaker, broadcaster, apologist and Florida native. She holds a B.A. in Music and, at age 50, she completed an M.A. in Christian Apologetics exploring the intersection of music, faith, and apologetics. Angela has decades of experience presenting and performing music on television. She currently hosts Praise Around the Piano and directs the Amazing Life Gospel Choir in Stirling. Since 2014, Angela has called Scotland home, where she lives with her husband, Kenneth, and their blended family of 31, including 19 grandchildren. Learn more at angela.org
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Transcript
Introduction to Pep Talk Podcast
00:00:10
Speaker
Well hello and welcome to another edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I am Andy Bannister from Solas and I'm joined by my podcasting partner in crime and Solas colleague Gavin Matthews. Gavin, how are you doing
Angela's Background and Career
00:00:24
Speaker
today?
00:00:24
Speaker
i'm very good, how are you? are you Andy? I am doing great I'm particularly doing great because we have a fantastic guest for you on the podcast today we like to scour the world to find great guests and actually today's guest is a world traveler so we are joined on Pep Talk today by Angela McKenzie Angela welcome to Pep Talk.
00:00:45
Speaker
Hi Andy hi Gavin great to be with you thanks. Now, you've got one of those bios that just goes on for a long time because you've done so much and traveled so much. And your history with Solas has been around for a while. You've been involved with us for a while because you were on our board of trustees ah for for for several years and serve really well there.
00:01:02
Speaker
But your bio is amazing because it covers so many things. So rather me just trying read it, I'm going to be cheeky and say, Angela, why don't you sum up? Who are you and what's been your journey that's led you to sitting in this ah this seat doing this podcast today?
00:01:17
Speaker
Well, let's see. I would say I am fifth generation Floridian, total Florida girl from the USA, who 12 years ago was introduced by mutual friends to a wonderful guy from Scotland.
00:01:29
Speaker
And I remember when my friend said, we'd like you to meet this fella and he's from Scotland. Remember, I am total girl from the south. And I was like, where is that up in Canada? No, I knew where it was. But the Lord had a particular point in my destiny. So got married 10 years ago, live in Scotland now.
00:01:48
Speaker
Together, we have 31 our family, six kids, 19 grandchildren, very big family. And we're just loving life, feeling blessed. As far as my work, I'm a musician. i have a degree in music. And I also, though, when I was getting older, I realized I just want to know more about my faith.
00:02:09
Speaker
So I went back to school at age 50 and got a master's degree in apologetics from Calvert School of Theology. And have combined my love for music and the arts and theology and just wanting to be a better witness for Christ.
00:02:24
Speaker
My work
Understanding Apologetics
00:02:25
Speaker
in Orlando is in television. So I've done that for about 40 years and lots of different kinds of programs. I'll even admit to you, I've done an exercise program that it was back in the 80s. Okay.
00:02:38
Speaker
in come on everybody stretch stretch it was back in the 80s but I've mostly done music interviews speaking and things like that so my heart's really just to be a faithful witness for Christ wonderful you mentioned that you did master's in apologetics apologetics is one of those lovely Christian jargon words that we all think we know what we mean for people that say what's that what is apologetics and what did you particularly focus on when you you were you studying that at master's level Well, the reason I went to apologetics is because of actually what it is. I know it's some kind of word people keep trying to replace and say, is there a better word?
00:03:14
Speaker
But it really just means to make a defense, to explain in a way that you are seeking to answer the questions that people are asking. So I grew up in a Christian home, accepted Christ as a young girl, felt a call to ministry at a youth camp in my early teens, loved God. I mean, i can tell you, I had ticked all the boxes, you know, youth youth leader, president, praise and worship leader. I loved God. But when I got to university, I was challenged.
00:03:44
Speaker
About my faith, the exclusivity claims of Christ, the reliability of the scripture, the concept of absolute truth. And I had never been prepared for that level of engagement outside of the bubble of my Christian family.
00:04:00
Speaker
And I can tell you between the time I was a freshman and the time I was a senior at the University of Central Florida, I had been so challenged that there was a crack in the foundation of my faith.
00:04:11
Speaker
Not from God to me, but from me to God. Just because i hadn't been kind of put through these exercises of thinking, challenges, what does the scripture say about some of the hard things.
00:04:24
Speaker
So apologetics is a look at the Christian faith. in relation to other religions, in relation to the big questions of life, and in relation to can Christianity hold up to all the things that get thrown? And I say yes.
00:04:40
Speaker
I think what's interesting in that and the answer you gave to to Gavin there, Angelo, in one sense you've identified, haven't you, there so I think apologetics has this kind of dual aspect to it. There's the side where we need it for evangelism. So if we're asking a friend, engaging with a friend and sharing Christ and they raise an objection, you know, it's important as 1 Peter 3.15 encourages us to be ready to give an answer.
00:05:01
Speaker
But you've also touched on the other side, I think, which is sometimes overlooked, which is as Christians to defend our own faith, right? Because if we're not confident in the gospel, And if we've got doubts or or cracks in the foundation, it's very hard to go and then share that with others, isn't it? If we've got some nagging
Role of Apologetics in Faith and Evangelism
00:05:16
Speaker
doubt that, oh, gosh, is this really true? Because there's this issue.
00:05:20
Speaker
So apologetics has that both that sort of discipleship aspect, doesn't it? And that outreach aspect to it. Yeah, and I think, you like you said, it's the maturing of our faith. Many people, I've heard evangelists say that when you're that if you kind of grew up in a Christian environment, or, you know, some kids come from what I call total heathen homes, but they get put on a bus and they get taken to Sunday school or they hear about Christ at their school or something and become a Christian.
00:05:48
Speaker
And then as they become an adult and get exposed to the big adult issues, they may have a chance to reevaluate their faith and kind of accept Christ at a deeper level, understanding more of his sufferings, understanding more of his scriptures, understanding what Paul talked about, about you you need to have this formation of Christ in you.
00:06:08
Speaker
And that's what happened to me. I had a faith The enemy came in and wanted to use places of my ignorance and my unlearning to go and totally nullify Christ.
00:06:21
Speaker
And that was the battle for my mind and my heart. And the study of apologetics and just having people who cared that I could ask hard questions to that were so patient,
00:06:32
Speaker
They would just work through the logic of it. They would work through the scriptures to help me to come back and say, like I heard Sean McDowell saying one time that when he walked away from the faith, his father said, Sean, this is my main thing for you.
00:06:45
Speaker
Dr. Josh McDowell said this to Sean. As long as you are searching for truth, you will eventually come back around to Christ. And that was also my experience.
00:06:56
Speaker
That's really interesting. Some people push back against apologetics, ah and I've seen it from a very kind of reformed perspective, but also from a more pentecostal perspective. that People say, you don't address people's minds. The mind just follows the heart. What we really need is for the Holy Spirit to move people's hearts, and then the mind will come kind of wandering along obediently after the heart has been moved.
00:07:14
Speaker
But apologetics just causes arguments. So you are someone who believes both in apologetics and and very much believe in the work of the Holy Spirit too. How do the two things work together? Because it's sometimes presented as a tension, but I don't think that's right. How how do you see those two areas working together in sharing the gospel?
00:07:35
Speaker
Well,
Women in Apologetics
00:07:36
Speaker
they do if we obey the scriptures. The Bible says, be prepared to give an answer for the reason for the hope that you have with gentleness and respect. And sometimes in the heat of the moment,
00:07:49
Speaker
ghost i I haven't been gentle. I work on that, staying with it, knowing that the truth of Christ will prevail, whether they want to receive it or not. it The truth is the truth.
00:08:01
Speaker
So I think in apologetics, we we can sometimes get a bad rap because it people think it's arguing. Versus being after presenting an argument, presenting a truth.
00:08:14
Speaker
But you know what? Paul the Apostle in the book of Acts, the Bible says that when he went to a town, that he stayed and he reasoned with them in the town center.
00:08:26
Speaker
For one city, it was like for two years. He reasoned with them. He didn't just say, let's sing two songs. And I'm a musician. I know the power of music. I have seen song and music just move people and melt their hearts.
00:08:41
Speaker
But we are body, soul, and spirit. And my my soul, my mind is longing for truth. I have a consciousness that's given by God that longs for knowledge. And the Bible, 66 books of God's eternal knowledge. God is welcoming on questions.
00:08:57
Speaker
One of the other questions, Andrew, I wanted to ask you about when comes to, again, you know we're talking a little bit about ah about apologetics there. One of the other things I've observed over the years, havent been involved in the field you know for 20 odd years now, I guess, is that it does skew a little bit male.
00:09:13
Speaker
you know If you think of one, an apologist, or you Google Christian apologist, tends to be... Most of the faces and names are male. There are some there are some female apologists, as youre yourself.
00:09:25
Speaker
ah you know For example, I think of Amy O'Ewing and Mary Jo Sharp and Holly Ordway, that there are others, but there are less of them. what What's your reflection? now is there Are there some reasons behind that? Are there more that we could be doing as the church to encourage ah women to go into this incredibly important field?
00:09:43
Speaker
Are there perhaps you know stumbling blocks that the perhaps the church or you know institutions have put in the way that we need to address? That's a massive topic that could be a podcast in its own right. But as a you know woman in apologetics with now years of experience, what is your thinking on on some of those issues? so You know, my thinking is I'm not exactly sure how we got here. i will tell you, when I walked into my class the first day, because we had summer school, we had to attend out in California.
00:10:10
Speaker
And i remember walking in, there's like 75 students and I was one of four or five women. And at first I thought, you know, they all have a philosophy background. They have a history background. they have And I'm walking in here with my high heels and my lip gloss and my large Bible and the Vogue magazine. I mean, I'm just bringing my well my whole self to class. You know? Yeah, people ask me, tell me about you. I'm like, well, i got him I got a bachelor's in music. I got a master's in apologetics and i have a PhD in fabulousness.
00:10:40
Speaker
it's not So even... Even if you think about the apologetics world, I am the last person you would think that God would give a passion for this. But I love to, I love good thought. I am so hungry for the truth of God because the world that I see on the news is falling apart.
00:11:01
Speaker
And Jesus Christ came and he died and and he rose again. and then he has given us so many action items. Go. He's told us to go into all the world, preach the gospel and feed the hungry and give an answer. This is a lot of action God is calling his people to.
00:11:18
Speaker
And so for me, i just knew that apologetics had been a blessing to me. And I think, though, there is... maybe more openness now for women to study apologetics and theology.
00:11:30
Speaker
And I would really encourage them for a number of reasons. And one of them is as mothers, for those of us who have children, many times we are the first apologists for our children.
00:11:41
Speaker
For example, the kids can come home from school. They were in science class that day. And they said, now, mom, we heard that we come from animals. Who made us?
00:11:52
Speaker
And mom, if she's Christian, she'll say, well, honey, God made you. But it's the second question you have to be prepared to answer, which is, well, mom, who made God? So I think there's an enormous opportunity for women.
00:12:05
Speaker
And even if they say, it's not my thing, I think it's too deep. Listen, it's not too deep. It's like a swimming pool. You can jump in the deep, you can start in the shallow, but it's just a chance to come together and think through issues. How do we communicate to our kids?
00:12:19
Speaker
How do we communicate to our coworkers? How do we communicate to our coffee group? How do we answer the questions that plague us? So, I just encourage women to come and be together and join in. And some of the best teachers I've had were the men. i thank God.
00:12:36
Speaker
I love what one of my professors at Biola said. He said, whoever puts in 10,000 hours has the right to call themselves an expert. So I would just say, ah women, come along. Let's study. Let's put in the time because the message is worth it. Mm-hmm.
Creativity and Faith
00:12:54
Speaker
And when we've been sort of recruiting new evangelist apologists, it's often very hard even to get applications from women. You know, you you you put things out, we deliberately put things into various women's networks and you get very, very, if any, applications. and And it's very difficult to crack that because it is being such a a male world, it must be quite intimidating for someone who is a young woman who's called, who's gifted to enter this very kind of male world. I wonder how we can make that better to open this field up more.
00:13:23
Speaker
Do what you're doing. Just keep sending out the invitation. You know what? I can tell you this. When I showed up to school, I was in my 50s. I'm a music major. I do television.
00:13:34
Speaker
I loved apologetics, but actually it was my husband who said, Angela, when it gets to the hard parts of the books, you just kind of set it aside and bring the Vogue magazine back over. No. No.
00:13:45
Speaker
And he said, you need to get in a program that's going to put your feet to the fire to make you work through all that. Now, that's the way I am. But I can tell you, I didn't even know how to write. My poor professor was like, Angela, I don't need to know all your descriptors.
00:14:01
Speaker
So I hired a student, you know, so college students who are always looking for $30 an hour. And I hired someone to help me work through all of my writings, teach me how to be a better writer, because a lot of it is writing. You have to be able to formulate thought.
00:14:15
Speaker
I love that. So please just keep doing. Send the invites out there. And God is raising up women and young women, especially. ah They're smart. They're interested. They're anointed. They're called. And we appreciate the platform. Yeah.
00:14:30
Speaker
That's really encouraging to hear. And I think, yeah, just just just hang just hang in there. And also I'm encouraged to hear, I didn't know that part of your story that you had to push through those things. As someone who also myself, I went to, you know, I didn't go into seminary until I was 28. And, you know, I sort of assumed that that wasn't for me. So I think I'd encourage anyone listening that, you know, God can use you. If you may not be an academic, but actually some of us can do further study, we may just assume we can't.
00:14:53
Speaker
But look, we've talked about the study and the arguments and apologetics is you know often constructed in terms of arguments and philosophy. But Angela, one of the things I find fascinating about you, you've got the other side of that personality. You've got the music and the arts and that and that really creative side to you. Again, apologetics has traditionally sometimes been seen as a little bit dry and scholastic.
00:15:13
Speaker
But I think there's a huge need to draw on those other words. more creative disciplines. How have you integrated those? How have you used those gifts that God has given you in in music and and creativity ah in perhaps, ah you know, in in ways to share the gospel as well? because that's apologetics too, right?
00:15:29
Speaker
It is apologetics. I believe
Cultural Experiences in Scotland
00:15:31
Speaker
that music and the arts are a signal of the divine because for the simple reason, and I could give you like five philosophical reasons. Well, if I look at my notes, I could tell you. but But off the top of my head, it's because they do not have to exist.
00:15:47
Speaker
If we want to say that the world is just, you know, what we can find under a microscope or we we can find by observation, music and the arts, it does not fall in that category.
00:15:58
Speaker
It points to a level of capacity and conscientiousness that the animals don't have. Music and arts is this expression of our creator God that flows through us.
00:16:10
Speaker
that either replicates, you know, if you think about it, how many people have pictures of mountains in their houses? We love to bring nature into our homes. Or we take, there's only eight notes in the scale, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, and then it starts A again.
00:16:24
Speaker
And there's just thousands and thousands and thousands of mutations and ah melodies and ways that they get expressed. They can be somber, they can be celebratory. All of that does not fit into a naturalistic thinking.
00:16:38
Speaker
It falls into something is overriding our brainwaves to but allow us to have this creativity. And I say it is an expression of the divine God who created us in his image with the capacity to create, not just to live by the natural order of things like animals do.
00:17:00
Speaker
But actually, we create, we take ideas, we replicate them, we distribute them, we sell them, we celebrate them. All of that points to something that you can't find in a test tube.
00:17:13
Speaker
Wonderful. Creative like our creator. it It's a wonderful picture, isn't it, that that you're you're portraying now. Something else I wanted to ask you about is you're really a cross-cultural missionary, aren't you, when you're working in Scotland? You've come across from the States 10 years ago.
00:17:26
Speaker
and I think it was George Bernard Shaw who said that we are two cultures divided by a common language. Well, he's attributed to that saying anyway. How do you find going back and forth between the States ah and Scotland? and And how is ministry different? How do you have to adjust? ah Are the cultures really different? Are people asking different questions?
00:17:45
Speaker
How do you negotiate that? Oh, I can tell you, we we may speak the same language, but, up and I say this all due respect to the folks who live in Glasgow, I still don't understand them. And I think they're speaking English, okay?
00:18:00
Speaker
And then some of the good folks from Aberdeen, or as my husband says, Aberdeen, No, it is a little bit different in in America, especially in the South. It's much more kind of accepted that you might wear cross. You pray in public.
00:18:15
Speaker
You um share your faith more openly. Now, Kenneth says, I talk to anybody anywhere and he's British. So, you know, they only show expression to dogs and horses.
00:18:26
Speaker
But um I I'm American. I talk to everybody. ah And when I came to Scotland, I definitely had to get used to the fact that that there's a faith interest.
00:18:41
Speaker
But it's been so suppressed. You know, Scotland is a place where the Enlightenment started. And the whole heart of the Enlightenment was that we are going to separate. There's no such thing truly as the supernatural.
00:18:52
Speaker
And we're going to separate it out. We're only going to be factual people. And when you take out the supernatural, Out of Christianity, you're just going to come up with a set of how to be good. It moves the the power of it.
00:19:05
Speaker
So I'm praying that Scotland, even though it's had the great Lewis revival, my husband just finished reading a book about the Lewis revival and the supernatural power of God that flowed ah through those islands.
00:19:16
Speaker
I pray it flows through the whole island. And I started ah to help with that. I started a gospel choir called the Amazing Life Gospel Choir. And we have about 50 in Sterling. We did two concerts last year.
00:19:28
Speaker
And I'm finding that just through music is helping folks to even learn how to express more. And I think that's a big thing because to let your light shine, to be the salt of the earth, you have to get out of the shakers.
00:19:41
Speaker
And to do that, though, you have to have some confidence. And honestly, the work you guys are doing at Solus is that, you know, you're confident Christianity. I think that's two words that must go together.
00:19:54
Speaker
You got to have the confidence. And I'm praying and encouraging as best as I can with the Lord's help. My Christian friends
Music and Arts in Evangelism
00:20:01
Speaker
here in the UK to be more confident in your faith, more confident in sharing, more confident in inviting people to church because it's the work of the Holy Spirit. But he needs us to just make that person to person connection.
00:20:15
Speaker
I just want to pick up on the on something you said in that in that story there, Angela. You talked about that that gospel choir that you've ah you started and and and finding people intrigued by. I just love your but ah you know your your take on – one thing I've noticed is that it's interesting. People who, if you ask them directly you know about religion, will do the I'm not religious line and keep you at distance.
00:20:36
Speaker
But – They'll come and join a gospel choir or they'll go to the carol service. Or I just recorded a piece of premier Christian radio. Other radio stations are available um talking about the life of Handel and the Messiah. I'm like the number of people who pack into churches to hear that at Christmas.
00:20:52
Speaker
It's Bible verses. It is so scripturally saturated. What is it? what What do you see? And it particularly, is I'm fascinated as an American living over here. What do you think is going on in culture right now that that people perhaps you know feel need to give lip service to the I'm not interested, but everything else seems to say, no, no, there's something else going on.
00:21:12
Speaker
We seem to be in a very strange cultural moment right in the UK. We are, but we got to take advantage of this moment. This is an opportunity. ah The great theologian, Augustine, it is said that he was in a garden and he, we're talking hundreds and hundreds of years ago, his mama had been praying for him because, you know, he was he was not living God's life before he surrendered to Christ.
00:21:35
Speaker
But then he heard a young boy singing a song or a song, a Christian song, and that it moved him on his heart. And then that brought him to church. And Bach, the great Johann Sebastian Bach, the German composer, has been called the fifth evangelist for all the people who have come to Christ through his music because everything he did had a Christian ethos that has the scripture in it.
00:21:58
Speaker
And Handel, actually, one of my gifts last year was I have a copy from the seventeen hundreds of the Messiah. The music and the lyrics. It is one of my personal treasures. It's about that thick.
00:22:10
Speaker
It was printed here in London. And that's where I'm saying hi to you today from. And and Handel's house is here. It's a museum that he shares with Jimi Hendrix. But and the reason, I know, know, it's a head trip. You can go see Jimi Hendrix's apartment and you can see the house of Handel. Absolutely. Musicians who often are quoted in the same sentence.
00:22:28
Speaker
Right. But Handel and the Messiah, I would encourage everybody to do a little research on it. and Some have said more people have come to Christ through the work of Handel than many evangelists put together, because it is all scripture. And even what we hear of the Hallelujah Course is just really part two.
00:22:48
Speaker
There's three parts of it. starts in the Old Testament, and then it goes to the New Testament, and it's the resurrection. yeah. It's because music is a gift from God. It's a way to communicate. It brings people together.
00:23:00
Speaker
It is language with sound. That's what music is. So I could sing everything. I'm bringing you together. it's It's the same language. But you take words and then you bend it in a way that it's melodic and it touches a part of us that goes past the gatekeepers of just logical thinking.
00:23:23
Speaker
It touches a deeper part of our being. That's why I talk to young people and I'm like, listen to the words. OK, take your pop song, take your rap song and just look at the lyrics. And all of a sudden they're like, i can't believe I'm saying this.
00:23:38
Speaker
Music is a gift that can be used positive or negatively. I would say positive, positive, positive, godly. Bring in the arts. Don't leave all the best arts to the world. The church should be the greatest giver of arts in the world.
00:23:53
Speaker
Wonderful.
Connecting with Angela McKenzie
00:23:54
Speaker
Our time has gone in a flash. Angela, before we finish, tell us where can people find your stuff online, your website and your um Power of Praise TV program? where Where can they see that online?
00:24:05
Speaker
Sure. They can on all the social media at Angela McKenzie or the Angela Mack. That's the easiest way to find me. um My website, thanks for asking, is Angela.org.
00:24:18
Speaker
Just my first name, Angela.org. And Sunday nights on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube. I'm on at 9 p.m. in UK doing a show where I just take praise and worship requests. I play and sing and would love to sing your favorite.
00:24:31
Speaker
Thank you so much. Our time is gone. Thank you, Angela. That was really stimulating, really enjoyable. We covered so much ground. That was brilliant. Really enjoyed that. We'll be back with another Pep Talk podcast in a fortnight with another exciting guest who will be telling us about how they go about sharing the gospel of Christ in a world that needs him. Thank you for joining us. We will see you in a fortnight.
00:24:49
Speaker
Goodbye.