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What If...? T'Challa became a Star Lord? Ep 2
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What If...? Episode 2 blew our collective minds! Very special guest Hayley Hobbs from the SPARC podcast joins us to breakdown and react to this incredibly exciting second entry!
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Transcript
What if T'Challa was abducted by the Ravagers?
00:00:00
Speaker
On another exciting edition of Animation Deliberation, we're asking and answering the question, what if this time it's what if T'Challa had been abducted by the Ravagers instead of Peter Quill? We're gonna get right into that, right off these ads we have no control over. You're invited to take a vacation.
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Speaker
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00:00:58
Speaker
Sing along if you know the
Introduction to the Animation Deliberation podcast
00:01:00
Speaker
words. A one, two, three, it's time for animation, deliberation. A conversation and a celebration of our favorite action animated series. Yeah.
00:01:16
Speaker
Yeah. Welcome back, folks. This is Animation Deliberation, the podcast that takes action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. I'm your host, Jay Scottie St. Clair. I am pondering the question, what if? And joining me to do so, I've got my co-host, Suher Ali. And joining us for the second time this week is the esteemed Hailey Hobbs from Spark. Sourcepage is a reading collective.
00:01:45
Speaker
Welcome back, Haley. Thanks. I'm so glad to be here. I'm glad that a Ravager never flies solo. We get to do this. I like it. That's why we have you here. I finally stopped crying after this episode.
Listener feedback on Captain Carter episode
00:02:00
Speaker
Oh, right. Right. Yeah. This was a tough one. Yeah, it was. It was. And I'm attempted to give my line. Let's not bury the lead. Let's just get right into it. But
00:02:10
Speaker
Unfortunately, well, I won't say unfortunately, this is fortunate because I put the call out there. I wanted feedback and bye. You were fed.
00:02:19
Speaker
I was fed. We've got feedback. Please don't turn us off. Yeah. Yeah. We're having fun already. Andre Sparks. Andre Sparks hit us with some feedback regarding our episode one coverage of what if Peggy Carter became Captain Carter?
00:02:47
Speaker
So, Zuhair, you got that for us? Yeah, he asked us a pretty interesting question after telling us he enjoyed the podcast, of course, but wouldn't
Could Steve Rogers or Peggy Carter have founded SHIELD?
00:02:56
Speaker
he? Yes. He said, who will be the founder of S.H.I.E.L.D. in this universe? Peggy was gone, and I don't know if Tommy Lee Jones' character made it. I'm guessing it would be Steve. Thoughts? Tommy Lee Jones' character did not make it, as you guys pointed out on your last cast.
00:03:14
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't catch, so I super appreciated that. It really is a blink and you'll miss it moment. So kudos to Andrew, Andrew Rogers, who appeared on our coverage last week, yeah, for pointing that out. But it was, if you pause it at that moment right when Peggy's screaming no, it is for sure Tommy Lee Jones rendered in this cell shaded style. And what was that character's name again? Sergeant or Colonel? Colonel Chester Phillips. Chester Phillips. There we go. Phillips. That's right. There we go.
00:03:44
Speaker
I guess my first thought is Howard. Hmm. I can see Howard and Steve doing it, especially like, I know that's it. It's not too far off of the moral standpoint of the Steve Rogers we know. Sure. And I feel like him wanting an organization that can act without, you know, government interference would still be
00:04:13
Speaker
inactive thing of his. That's something he appreciated about the Avengers. That's why he left SHIELD. So I could see him in Howard, who also is a free soul, just wanting to do things on their own. But wouldn't I mean, there's no reason Peggy couldn't still be one of the founding members. Yeah, I don't see why not. What a figurehead for your organization. Yeah, I mean, much much like Captain America left his legacy there. I guess the only problem I see with that is the fact that she's just not there because she's
00:04:44
Speaker
Lost to the multiversal portal. Yeah. I forgot about that. Sorry. I was like, why are they looking at me so strangely? No, you're good. You're good. I guess the- It's kind of a stretch, but sure, I guess it's a possibility. I forgot a major point of the episode. What a failure. No, no, not at all. Not at all.
00:05:10
Speaker
Yeah, I could see Steve and, uh, Howard putting that team together. Yeah. I guess the other person that potentially comes to mind too is maybe Bucky. He's very charismatic and, um, has a way with people and seems to be able to win friends. I could see him being, you know, a good figurehead for, and he's a soldier too. He wants to fight the good fight. So he's got that altruistic nature. I could see him potentially, uh, Steve would probably talk him into doing it. Yeah. Yeah.
00:05:39
Speaker
I, the more, the more I kind of explored, I think Bucky's kind of the answer here. Yeah. Bucky in unison with Steven Howard. He'd probably be their main operative too. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. He would be the, he'd be the black widow of like the early shield days. Oh, true. He'd be the recon guy. He'd be the winter soldier, but for the good guys. He just has like the American flag on his arm.
00:06:07
Speaker
The summer soldier. There we go. Yeah. I like it. I like it. The summer soldier. I like it. Well, hopefully we have adequately answered that question for Andre. Andre, who would you suggest Helm, S.H.I.E.L.D. and Peggy's absence? That's my question to you and all our other listeners out there. Great question. Let us know what you're thinking.
00:06:31
Speaker
That'd be cool if Alexandra Pierce like never became, uh, the head of Hydra. And it actually just was Steve Rogers or the head of shield undercover. So that would just like Hydra never infected shield at all. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Where would that put Nick Fury? Would he still be this trusted confidant within the organization? Okay.
00:07:00
Speaker
Cause he didn't have that interaction with Pierce where we got in Winter Soldier where he effectively saved Pierce and became his like go-to guy. Yeah. Interesting things to explore. We're being regular Owatus here pondering what if, but we're talking about, you know, this feedback anyway, we're talking about episode one. Before we go right into episode two, Haley, why don't you tell me what your impressions of the debut of what if were.
00:07:26
Speaker
I was really excited for it because I've gotten more into animation lately, like I've talked with you guys separately about. I enjoyed the Captain Carter episode a lot. It was fun. It made me laugh a lot. It felt very,
Reactions to Captain Carter's episode
00:07:43
Speaker
it wasn't too heavy. Like sometimes
00:07:48
Speaker
animation that can feel like it's geared towards adults can be. It was just fun. It was just an exploration of what if this one small thing had happened. And so I enjoyed it. I know some people felt like it was just a recreation of the Captain America story. And I'm like, well, that was kind of the point. But it had so many different quirks and so many different
00:08:12
Speaker
twists and turns than that one you guys and andrew you did a great job breaking it down i thought so i'm i loved it i loved this next one even more and so i'm super excited i think it's gonna just build and build and build yes agreed and that was the main reason i asked that question is because i agree with you wholeheartedly as much as i like that first episode this episode episode two
00:08:39
Speaker
Really, really impressed me. It took that question, what if, and it ran with it. We got to see all of the effects of asking that simple question, what lasting effects it has on so many different members of the galaxy. So, Zuhair, how about yourself? How are you feeling about episode two?
Excitement for T'Challa's crossover with Guardians of the Galaxy
00:09:00
Speaker
I absolutely loved it. I don't think it's any surprise that T'Challa has been one of my favorite characters since his debut. I loved him in Earth's Might His Heroes, and I was ecstatic to see him in Civil War, and he's been my favorite since then. What? Oh, just Earth's Might His Heroes, another show we will cover on this show. Yeah. Because it's so good. Internal plug.
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, like the there's there's one scene in that show where he's just like spying on Avengers Mansion for like two weeks and nobody ever noticed and then he kicks like all the Avengers assets on his own just to see if they were like worthy enough to work with him. I was like, this guy's a beast. Yeah, that's where my love for him started. Obviously Chadwick Boseman did an amazing job portraying him. Rest in peace. And
00:09:50
Speaker
Guardians of the Galaxy was one of those things that I just wasn't sure about the first time I saw a trailer for it. And the what if really threw me off.
00:10:02
Speaker
The perspective was cool. It's like, okay, what if he got picked up instead of Peter Quayle? But there was so many shifts in what we expected of characters and what we know of characters. And they got really creative with the story and gave a lot of different personalities of what they could have been in a real parallel universe. Captain Carter was just like, what if this one event changed? Yes, there was a lot of similarities, but we just got to see
00:10:33
Speaker
more of like what we really knew with those characters where it's like this is like a total like flip personality of a lot of these characters that we got to see especially Thanos like I shrieked when he came up it's like oh my god Thanos is here I loved it like I was genuinely concerned like what is about to happen like oh so he's a Ravager
00:10:54
Speaker
Daniel's a ravager. So I absolutely loved it. They got super creative. There was just like no mental boundaries whatsoever when they came up with this episode. Agreed. If there was a grade I could give higher than A plus, this would definitely get it. And I didn't see the clunky issue that I had with the with the last episode. OK, good, good. Yeah, I did try to pick up on that a little bit when I went back and watched that first episode.
00:11:23
Speaker
Still not 100% sure what you were referring to, so you'll have to point it out to me, but I believe you. Maybe I was just high off sleep deprivation when I saw it. You'd be low on me. But I didn't have any issues. Again, it might have been something that was an intentional effect, and maybe that's why it just didn't stick out to me as a negative.
00:11:44
Speaker
That's neither here nor there. I guess that Bad Batch has just set such a high standard for me that, like, whenever Disney makes anything else animated, now I'm looking at it very carefully. Yeah. Yeah. And Hailey brought up the point that, yeah, while Captain Carter was very much the first Avenger just re-contextualized, this episode did a good job of making you think that we were going to get Guardians of the Galaxy again in just the same kind of fashion, just seeing T'Challa in the proceedings as well, because we got that opening on Morag.
00:12:14
Speaker
and it all looks just, I mean, obviously he's not dancing or sulturing up to the orb, but then right off the bat, his first exchange with Korath and like, I feel like I,
00:12:25
Speaker
I appeared on the instant reaction with Matthew Carroll of the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast. And I feel like we just did not give justice to the character of Korath. He is absolutely hysterical from the first time he opens his mouth. He's the best. He's just like, you're Star-Lord, the legendary outlaw. Let's kneel. Should we kneel? Should we be bowing? It's so cute. He's so fanboy. Such a beautiful line.
00:12:55
Speaker
Do we have any John Wick fans here? People keep asking if I'm back. Yeah. I'm thinking I'm back. Does that answer your question? Yes. I'm still wondering if you've seen the third one, but I'm just going to say yes at this point. For the fans of John Wick, the scene that remind me of was, of course, the two Filipino warriors towards the end when he's worked his way up.
00:13:22
Speaker
the building and like they were squaring down and every time they knocked John down, they'd be like, we are a big fan of yours, Mr. Winston. My favorite. They're actually going for these kill shots and stuff. And every time like John goes down, because he's already like beat to shreds by the time he got to this point. Yeah. But like every time he got knocked out, just be like picking him up. He's like, oh, thank you so much. Kick his ass again. Pick him back up. You guys do amazing things. It really reminded me of that when I was watching this episode.
00:13:51
Speaker
I love when Corath points the gun at T'Challa and he kind of gives him a look. He's like, oh, should I not use the gun? He's like, no, it's fine. It's so funny. Please use the gun. He's like indulging him so much. Yeah. Yeah. And correct me if I'm wrong on this, he doesn't even have the powers to Black Panther. I don't believe so. It doesn't appear that way.
00:14:12
Speaker
He's just a badass warrior. Although that's something I don't feel like was explained, and maybe I missed it, but where did he get his vibranium claw necklace? Did he have it on when he was a kid? That was given him as a kid, yeah. Okay, that part was, like, blipped out of my mind then. His necklace was the equivalent of Peter Quill's headphones. Gotcha. Okay, that wasn't super clear to me. I wasn't close enough attention, I guess.
00:14:39
Speaker
There was a bit of dialogue, but I can't remember the words, so I'm not gonna try to quote it. Was it in that scene? I mean, it obviously had to be between that scene with T'Chaka and T'Challa, where, again, I keep calling it the Lion King scene, where it's like, that stuff beyond there, that's not your territory. No, it was either Nebula or Yondu. Oh, okay, okay.
00:15:05
Speaker
It was something along the lines like, oh, he keeps it close to the escape as close to his chest, but he says something else too. There was another dialogue insinuating that like that was the only thing that he had with him. I think it was the exchange with Nebula now that you bring it up because that's when he tells her that he was led to believe that his Wakanda was wiped out by war.
00:15:23
Speaker
Yeah, and he was kind of like tapping onto his necklace like while they were talking about that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't think there's any because in Wakanda, there's a Black Panther and then there's a king and you can be both. Sure.
00:15:39
Speaker
But I think at this point, or at the earlier point in time, before he got abducted, King Tachaka was Black Panther at that point, because he was wearing the garment, he was wearing the sash, right? Like how he was in the Black Panther movie when they had the 1990s flashback. So yeah, I think he doesn't have
00:16:03
Speaker
the powers of the Black Panther, but because he was trained as a warrior at such a young age, you see him practicing with his spear as a javelin, you know that he's capable of fighting and being trained under Ravagers on top of that.
T'Challa's impact on the Guardians timeline
00:16:18
Speaker
is just so amazing to see how capable he was, even without power. So if you got to see a lot in Black Panther as well, because they had to fight for the title of King without the powers, but seeing it in a whole other setting of like how amazing T'Challa is as a person and how capable he is, it's just, man, so good. It was so good. Yeah.
00:16:43
Speaker
Yeah, capable is a good word and I think it's his capability and his good nature and his ability to bring out the best in everyone that really does make him the soul of the ship as Yondu refers to him as and such an appropriate role for T'Challa and especially for Chadwick Boseman. I like the moment after he knocks Korath out and then he takes them to be part of the crew and Yondu shows up
00:17:13
Speaker
One of the changes that's almost imperceptible, I saw it on my second watch, is that he gives Yondu the power orb, which he doesn't do in Guardians of the Galaxy. Star-Lord hides it from him. He switches it at the end. So that was not something I caught the first time. I was like, oh, that's a what if, because that didn't happen that way in the sacred timeline. Right. They wanted to eat you. They never had Terran before. Yes, yes.
00:17:42
Speaker
I'm really happy I watched Guardians of the Galaxy before this episode came out. Oh yeah. Like the night before I was watching Guardians. Did you watch just the first one or did you watch one and two? The first one just while I was working in anticipation of this. Okay, okay. And then Disney Plus stopped working halfway through. Okay. Because this one did have some nice seeds to Guardians 2 I felt as well.
00:18:04
Speaker
Hasseeds. Yeah, that wasn't even intentional. Obviously the scene that you're alluding to where we get to see what happens to Peter Quill when he's left in Missouri, an ego comes to collect him. But the other scene that I was, or just the inclusion of the character of Taserface. Taserface. Because he wasn't around in the first... Your name's Taserface? When the gold lady just starts laughing at him.
00:18:33
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also felt like the first time we got like the reveal of T'Challa walking with the Ravagers, like right before we got that introduction of Thanos when he was walking down the steps and you kind of had the snowfall. I think that was the same planet that all the Ravagers were kind of commiserating on in Guardians 2 where Yandu got kind of, yeah, where he got his exchange with Sylvester Stallone's character there was like,
00:19:01
Speaker
We'll never fly the banners at your funeral or whatever. But it was like a cleaned up version of it because T'Challa was there. Exactly. Like not brothels and stuff like that. Exactly. I mean, that we saw. That we saw. No place for a king. Yeah, yeah.
How did T'Challa reform Thanos?
00:19:22
Speaker
But so we've talked a little bit about Thanos being completely, well, I say completely reformed, but he still always has to throw in at the end anytime he's talking about his argument. It's still very efficient. He's just trying to make a case for it so much.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. I just I love just the position that's puts them in with with Nebula even they still have their adopted father daughter not entirely trusting each other but they come full circle there at the end where she's jokingly calling him him dad. And but the other part of that is is like in terms of like, what if it's obviously one of the biggest changes there. And it creates this power vacuum in which the collector
00:20:08
Speaker
gets to step up and he has the Black Order under his thumb. So what did you guys just think about those aspects of the episode getting to see the villainous characters? I love seeing the Black Order. Yeah, that was cool. I was a big fan of them in the movies, and I feel like we could have seen more of them too. Yeah. And even then, we did get to see a lot of Thanos facing off against, but not only did he know what they were capable of,
00:20:37
Speaker
because he kind of has a lot of like, man, if the Black Order's watching it, like, I know firsthand what that's like, but then like getting to see him like face off with them and seeing like a warrior Thanos is just awesome. You know, we got to see a lot of him in end games and we got to see more of this, like what the gauntlet just isn't a factor. It's just kind of like his hand to hand proficiency, like we got to see with this fight against the Hulk. Yeah. It was just really cool to see the Black Order's awesome. I'm glad we got to see more of them.
00:21:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And Carrie Kuhn returned to voice Proxima Midnight. And I guess Tom Taylor Vaughn, who does the voice of Ebony Ma, he returned as well, but I'm trying to- Tom Vaughn Lawler. Thank you. I knew that was wrong. Like when I said it just felt wrong, but thank you. Tom Vaughn Lawler. Did he have
00:21:31
Speaker
A speaking line because I'm thinking maybe that's something that got cut because I don't remember him having any discernible lines. He just kind of... Does he say something to Karina?
00:21:44
Speaker
Maybe. Oh, no, he says that is it to Chachala when T'Challa is escaping and right before? When you like force pushes him. Yeah, when he puts the glass handcuffs on him. Ooh, speaking of that, that gives me the heebie-jeebies. Oh yeah, that made me cringe. Even in animation form, it reminds me of like bad saw traps. Yeah. That got me. But yeah, I think he had some dialogue with Karina as well. Oh, okay, okay.
00:22:10
Speaker
I liked seeing the collector back, but I felt like Benicio del Toro's voice acting was a little over the top.
00:22:18
Speaker
Agreed. Thank you. Agreed. I didn't think it was him. Because he doesn't sound like that. And like, no, he has more gravitas in the films. And he was kind of squirrely. Like, he was goofy. It was kind of like where Korath was being a little over the top, but it worked for what they were doing with that character. I agree with you. It didn't work. And again, I love this episode. I love the collector and I love seeing him as like a
00:22:42
Speaker
big bad bruiser and karma being his ultimate undoing. But I do agree with you. The vocal performance kind of had me zigging and zagging. I didn't know if it was him. And then when I saw the credits at the end, I was like, oh, wow, it was him. I thought it was just somebody trying to do an impression and not always succeeding. Yeah, it was odd.
00:23:00
Speaker
Yeah, I thought that too. I didn't look at the list until just now when you were asking about Ebony Moss. I was like, Oh God, that actually was him. Because with Korath, he still got such a weird thing to say. He got his own voice, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:23:17
Speaker
like he captured the essence. Yeah, he was himself just a funny version of himself. True. Yeah. Benicio del Toro, who I guess is more notable for like being able to embody different roles and whatnot, he wanted to try something different. And I don't think it worked in the strongest sense. Well, it's kind of like, you know, there's a little bit of a fuss about Dave Bautista not being asked, according to him to
00:23:43
Speaker
voice drags. And it's like, voice acting is not just acting acting. And if you're not, if it's not something you're comfortable with, or maybe it's not something you have a lot of experience with, maybe you shouldn't do it. And hot take, I don't think Dave Bautista is that great of a regular actor. So I got love for Dave Bautista. But I will say whoever did his voice in this episode did a very serviceable job when I heard it. I thought it was Dave Bautista, even though I knew it wasn't so
00:24:11
Speaker
I liked seeing the collector being real bad. He had like an eight pack. He was like ripped from head to toe. It was super funny. And he had like some type of machinery or something in his neck, like on his spine. Yeah. It kind of looked like Nebula's modifications. Yeah. So that was interesting. Yeah. I mean, they said that Nebula and Gamora both had a lot of work done to them. I think he just kind of had the stuff done to himself to buff himself out even more.
00:24:41
Speaker
Okay, yeah. And then on the subject in Nebula, she hasn't had all these modifications done to her, so she's got a full head of blonde hair. The only thing you see is her recognizable little frame around her eye. I didn't like it. No? I thought it was fun.
00:24:59
Speaker
I'm reading these thoughts about it. She's like, as Star-Lord T'Challa runs into a friendly now-minibly cybernetic nebula who initially comes across as a kind of blue Jessica Rabbit. Yeah. I was thinking she looks like, yeah, when she shows up with her sparkly dress, she looks like a Barbie from the 50s. Okay. I don't have hair quaffed like that.
00:25:18
Speaker
Interesting. Interesting. I didn't really make those connections, but I can see it. I was just uncomfortable by the hair. I was like, who is it? Oh, God. I liked it. But it softened her too. And she was more soft as a person in this story. Certainly.
00:25:32
Speaker
But once she spoke, I just fell in love with Karen Gillan all over again. Yeah. I kind of missed the modification they make to her voice. They make it a little more robotic in the movies. Kind of has that. I don't know what the right word is, but echoey, a little echoey. Yeah, a little modulated, a little modulated. I kind of missed that, but it was Karen Gillan at least.
00:25:56
Speaker
Yeah, it was, it was, yeah. And I absolutely love the fact that she refers to T'Challa as Cha-Cha. I feel like you would not let anyone else do that for her for some reason. That was adorable. We don't do that yet. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. And then of course she gets to do what Nebula does best. And that's just keep you guessing in terms of her allegiances. She gets to be, you kind of made the allusions to the whole Jessica Rabbit. It almost seems kind of like
00:26:25
Speaker
Hailey, you and I were talking Bond earlier, but it almost seems like it sets her up like a Bond girl a little bit because T'Challa, especially in Black Panther, but even here as Star-Lord, he still has some of that 007 vibe, especially when he's like entering the party scene like that. But anyway, she gets to be a double agent and a triple agent. So I always appreciate when they can keep me guessing and they kept me guessing so many times in this episode.
What's the significance of the Embers of Genesis?
00:26:48
Speaker
Never knew where I was going, even with the,
00:26:53
Speaker
the Maltese Falcon, for lack of a better term, the item that we were seeking here. It wasn't the power stone this time around. It wasn't the orb that played a relatively small role. It was this- Embers of Genesis. Embers of Genesis, which is really cool. We have not seen anything like that in the Marvel universe yet. And it reminded me
00:27:17
Speaker
of Hellboy 2. Have either of you seen Hellboy 2, the Golden Army? Nope. I'm shaking my head now. All right. Well, I won't go off that off the rails too badly there, but there's basically, it's kind of a similar thing. They have a seed that once it starts to grow, it basically becomes a sentient plant life that kind of starts to take over. So it was really
00:27:39
Speaker
nice to see that in the first Guardians of the Galaxy, it was like they were trying to prevent the destruction of the galaxy. This time they're trying to promote the creation of life and the propagation and the saving of a planet. It's like the opposite of Darkseid's Gero Forme.
00:27:54
Speaker
True, true, yeah. But it did have me a little concerned for the inhabitants of nowhere there at the end. When they're escaping, we just see the skull like burgeoning out with plant life. What happened to Howard? Howard the duck? Last we saw him used- Well, he's all drinking at the bar, you know? Okay, okay. He just made room for the plant life, the roots and stuff. He's like walking up it with his martini.
00:28:15
Speaker
That's obviously made with absinthe or something. It's so green. I just wanted to say for any Naruto fans listening, when that scene happened and all the trees came out, I instantly just yelled deep forest emergence. If you know what that means, please hit me up so I feel validated for saying that out loud. It was really funny. It just reminded me of the first one right off the bat. Okay. One day I'll understand that reference. It's probably somewhere in the recesses of my mind.
00:28:44
Speaker
I was going to say that when they first come to nowhere, it looked just like the movie. It looked just like the cinematic version of it, which I thought was really amazing. I don't know. I just wanted to say that out loud, I guess. No, I agree wholeheartedly. There were a lot of times where it felt like shot for shot recreations just done in this cell shaded style.
00:29:07
Speaker
But to me it was almost, you couldn't almost discern between the animation and the movie version. Like that just approaching me where I thought was, it looked seamless to me. Yeah, I agree. I'm sure if I looked at them side by side, I'd see the differences, but that's how I felt watching it.
00:29:26
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Well, it does have a very cinematic feel. So that's a testament to I talked about on the bad batch. But one of the things I always appreciate the most about animation is like, you're only limited by your, your creativity and your imagination when it comes to camera placement, you can do things with the camera that you just can't do live action. So I felt like they did do a bit of that in this episode, primarily with the action, there was not as much action
00:29:55
Speaker
But the action that was there I felt had a little bit more of a unique flair. The thing that's sticking out to me about this series, and I think one of the things that works best for it, is while all of the models are three dimensional and a lot of the backgrounds have three dimensions,
00:30:11
Speaker
the action like in episode one of Captain Carter, the explosions are all 2d. And in this episode, I talked about like the white action lines when Thanos is swinging or even proximal midnights staff making the electrical impact. That is all 2d on a 3d environment. It just does a really cool job of creating this almost kind of like
00:30:31
Speaker
propaganda poster pop art kind of feel. I love it. I only noticed it because I heard you talk about it. Well, thank you. What else are we leaving on the table here? I feel like we got so many references. Cap shield in the collector's office was there. We got a fourth wall breaking. Oh yeah.
00:30:58
Speaker
It's very meta. Howard the Duck, when T'Challa comes up on him, he's on an Eames recliner. And as a big Frasier fan, that chair is very important in Frasier. And I was like, oh my God, it's like a fourth wall Frasier reference to nerds like me who love that show from the 90s.
00:31:18
Speaker
I like Frasier, but I don't know if I would have caught that reference. It was on my second watch again. It just made me laugh. I just need to have more tossed salad and scrambled eggs. I've been reading people's reactions to this episode in which they talk about, do you really think Thanos would have turned just because of a conversation? I don't think it's that far-fetched.
00:31:44
Speaker
um because not everything does have to be dealt with violence and I think um especially falcon and the winter soldier like there's so many episodes of just dialogue and I feel like that's a very important factor that like you just need to understand each other's perspectives what it's not like Thanos ever gave up on his plan but it was more of like true all right let me follow your lead prove that your idea works because he's still set on this plan
00:32:12
Speaker
T'Challa has to constantly remind him, like, see, you don't have to do it. You can double the resources, which I thought was really meta too, because a lot of people, there's even the meme going around with the, uh, the invincible scene of, uh, of Tony pushing, uh, of Omni man pushing his son into the mountain. But it's like Tony to Thanos saying like, what if you just doubled the resources? Oh, okay. Uh, so I thought it was kind of funny that they mentioned that in this,
00:32:40
Speaker
Yeah. It's that whole, we talked about it doing bad batch. I understand you. That doesn't mean I agree with you. And that's probably the conversation T'Challa had with him. Now I understand what you're trying to do, but I don't agree with how you're trying to do it. Here's another solution.
00:32:57
Speaker
And I don't think that that's entirely outside of the realm of the Thanos we've been presented to before, because I think back on that scene on Titan, while, yes, it was just Dr. Strange that he knew was there initially, he wanted to have a conversation. He was like, hey, this is where I'm coming from. This is my plan. This is what happened. This is why I believe what I believe. I think if he could have a conversation with someone like T'Challa, and again, with the character of T'Challa,
00:33:24
Speaker
Matt talked about this on the instant reaction. Chadwick Boseman very much was very generous and giving in his portrayal of the role. He took a backseat and let the more colorful characters come to the forefront. But one of the things we know about the character of T'Challa is he is a wonderkin in all regards, science, math, athletics, whatever, whatever he tries his hand at, he is amazing at. So it only makes sense that someone of that intelligence and capability put into a debate
T'Challa's debate skills and intelligence
00:33:53
Speaker
could potentially convince the Mad Titan. And on that note, I did love the fact that we got that line. Not crazy. Mad. Mad. That was awesome. It was good. Josh Berlin did so good. He did.
00:34:09
Speaker
I loved the beats with Ludwig Gorinson's music when T'Challa's necklace starts to light up. Oh my god, it gave me so many feels. And they used it very sparingly, but very intentionally. I was waiting to say it, because that was one of the big things that caught my eye was that they waited for the prime moment.
00:34:31
Speaker
Where at the end, where he was ready to square off, that's where it kicked in. I got chills. I was like, oh my god, like, this has been good.
00:34:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And I like that you called out Ludwig Gorenson because he's just killing it. In the Marvel side of things, in the Star Wars side of things, anything he puts his hands to or tries his hand out, he's just incredible. We talked about in episode one how the music didn't stand out to us as much, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. That just means it's being serviceable. But with this being, again, how we said we expected to kind of get Guardians of the Galaxy recontextualized,
00:35:07
Speaker
one of the most indelible things about the Guardians movies is their soundtrack. And again, I didn't feel like that was necessarily translated into this episode, but I'm so glad you bring up those beats about the Wakandan drums coming in because they immediately resonated with me even on a first watch. Like I remember being there in the live scene or watch and when Chala sees the Wakandan ship and that just was Wakandan drums come in though.
00:35:34
Speaker
And I just wanted to immediately, it takes me back to the trailer again, the trailer for Black Panther. And that first trailer for Black Panther is one of my favorite trailers ever. It's just so cute, so well to the music. And whenever you hear those drums.
00:35:46
Speaker
step in the spotlight, woo! When it's like the warrior changes, woo! Yeah, yeah, so good. I love when the horns come in too, that fanfare, it's so good. In the wise words of Visions, I request elaboration. When you mean that you're not getting much of the soundtrack, do you mean like the actual like music from the tape or like the actual score from Guardians?
00:36:14
Speaker
Because we got it. Because I recently watched the movie, there was a good balance of both. And I kind of feel like the latter was on there. You think there's a good balance of both? So I know Tyler Bates did the score for Guardians. And I felt like we heard some of his themes. But were there any pop song references? Just at the end. OK, I didn't think so. But I felt like there was enough of the score in there. So did you feel like there was score? Or was it just the music that you were missing out?
00:36:41
Speaker
No, I would again I would say the score did the same thing that episode one with with Captain Carter did it was there and it was serviceable and it's set up to the world but I didn't I never found myself like that's just one of the things about the Guardians movies anytime you have like a scene transition when you get when you get to see that scene in nowhere you're you're always getting a pop song like Bringing into the proceedings but not a bad thing. It just made me appreciate those Wakandan drums all that much more well, and I think we've been talking about how this just
00:37:09
Speaker
put all the expectations on its head, and that's one of those things. Like that wouldn't fit to Charlotte's character. He wouldn't be moonwalking to come and get your love by Redbone. He's going to do his business and help people and move on. Yeah, that's why I felt like there was a healthy amount of Guardians, like the Guardian score in it, and then the Black Panther score was used when needed. And then they just didn't have any of the soundtrack stuff.
00:37:40
Speaker
Like I said, it's never a bad thing when it's not noticeable. If you're not noticing the music and it's not like awkward silence, the music is doing what it's supposed to. Yeah. There is something that talked to my heartstrings when T'Challa gets onto the Wakandan ship and he sees the message from his father. And one of the lines that T'Chaka says is, we will search every last one of them until we find you on this plane or the next. And I just...
00:38:10
Speaker
In the MCU, they gave Chadwick Boseman so many poignant lines about death and life after death. And they couldn't know because nobody knew that he was dying. But it just breaks my heart every single time I hear a line like that uttered to him or by him because it's
00:38:31
Speaker
He knew what he's going through. He knew. And to have to say those things and hear those things said to you, like the strength it would take to do that is incredible to me. You just gave me goosebumps. Sorry. No, no, it's good.
00:38:47
Speaker
I just think about that all the time, especially in civil war after the bombing. And he's talking to Black Widow and he's having that whole conversation about what I forget what they call their death in his culture. Death is a jumping off point. It's like it's bringing tears to my eyes. I wouldn't be able to say that if I knew cancer was going through my body and I don't know. It's amazing.
00:39:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean his whole thing was about just empowering other people and you know bringing light to the people who feel like that they aren't seen and I That's just yeah, I think that just kind of hit like a whole other crowd of people are just The internal struggles the internal battles and just kind of being your best self no matter what could be dragging you down what could sound kind of tearing up as I'm saying this and
00:39:37
Speaker
Um, but yeah, it's just, it just added a whole other layer of the people he was trying to speak to Wakanda forever. Chadwick and T'Challa are the best of all of us. Uh, well, I hate to get less serious after such a poignant moment there, but, uh, I know we were just, I know we were just talking about some of the references and whatnot. And, uh, we talked about cap shield and whatnot, but I think you brought up Mjolnir, there's your hair.
Easter eggs in the Collector's room
00:40:07
Speaker
But then we also got Hello's Horns worn by the collector. Yeah. Women had style. Which I think is funny because even though in Ragnarok, Hello wasn't walking through the collector's collection. She was walking through the Asgardian vault. It still felt like she was going through someone's collection being like fake.
00:40:34
Speaker
This one's no good. And it was kind of funny to like see her headdress be a collectible item. And then it actually got destroyed kind of like similarly to the way she destroyed Mjolnir.
00:40:46
Speaker
Yeah, I was happy to see that. Yeah, I was expecting it. She's a bee. Yeah. Well, and then he has like, he says, Oh, do you like this about his rock arm? I took it off a terribly chatty crone. And I'm like, you did not, sir, take that off of Korg. Hey, man, not okay. Yeah, my, it took me a second to process that especially when I saw the rest of like,
00:41:12
Speaker
Oh no. I thought it was sad. Yeah. There's only one chatty. Was it? What's the, uh, Cronin? Cronin. Cronin, yeah, yeah. I always want to say Corbinite, but that's Beta Ray Bill. I believe you, again. I know who Beta Ray Bill is.
00:41:29
Speaker
What if? Again, from Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Ah, yes. I'm sure we'll read about him someday. There's another kind of fourth wall thing, and it might just be me as a Star Wars, but Nebula says to punch it at the end of the episode when they're flying away, and I was like, oui! I wanted to finish the sentence. I like it, I like it. I also liked when Thanos was fighting the Black Dwarf,
00:41:58
Speaker
And he stops his acts coming down on him. Super Hulk versus Thor in Ragnarok, where he like looks around the, the battle acts for a minute and he's like shaking cause he's so mad. Yeah. Good catch. And it may not even have meant to be that, but that's what I saw. No, he was, he was, he was very Hulk like in those. Yeah. And I wouldn't put it past Marvel at all. They're very. We can nod to the camera for those diehard fans like that.
00:42:26
Speaker
So good. So good. And I love that Karina gets to live. I love that she gets to live. Yeah. What if they say that we're using the Power Stone 4? Like wasn't it actually like to... I don't recall. Nor do I. It was for something like super positive. Like, oh, we can finally use this to do this, this, and this now. Yeah.
00:42:48
Speaker
It does make me wonder, like you said, Scotty, the embers of Genesis were released into the Black Dwarf and nowhere was kind of being taken over. So maybe it's because all of them were used at once instead of just one. Oh yeah, it could be. Put a couple seeds down his throat. But I had the same thought. I was like, what's going to happen to nowhere? Was it, oh crap, I'm freaking the big guy's name.
00:43:14
Speaker
Oh, Blackdorth, Colobcidian. They're kind of interchangeable. Colobcidian. Yeah. Uh, when they were putting the, they put like five of the seeds in his mouth and it just like. Yeah. Oh yeah. He did. Yeah. She just put all of them in there, I think. Oh yeah. Eat this.
00:43:32
Speaker
dodge this one thing that kind of it was just like how incompetent the ravagers are was when they picked up T'Challa I love that they said like all humans look the same but they were like oh we came here to get egos kid why did you pick this one out they didn't even go back around to like grab him while they were in the area they're just like well we got this kid he's pretty cool he's really excited let's take him
00:43:58
Speaker
And I like that they reminded the audience that vibranium does come from space because they were even like, there's a huge cosmic source around him. So we figured that was the reason. It wasn't like they just picked up a random kid. There was a reason that they went into child specifically. I was like, Oh, it's a great.
00:44:14
Speaker
reminder to everybody that vibranium actually comes from space which is why i feel like the meteorite which is why i feel like warrior thanos's sword could be made from vibranium especially the way it destroyed the shield but that could be a conversation for another day
00:44:33
Speaker
Well, you talk about Thanos of Sword. We didn't get to see it in this episode, but not to, I guess, speculate too much. But I don't know what everybody's level of exposure to the promotional material has been, but we do know that we're going to see Gamora with that Thanos double-edged sword. So makes me wonder, and I kind of talked about this on the instant reaction with Matt.
00:44:57
Speaker
with every subsequent episode, are we going to find out that these are actually more connected than we initially thought? Because the other part of it, too, is I didn't know about this at the time of recording, but as much as this is Chadwick's final performance, this episode is not the last that we're going to get to hear from him. He's slated to appear in at least two more episodes, maybe even more than that. I haven't looked into it too much. I noticed Gamora's armor. I didn't pay attention to the swords on top of it.
00:45:28
Speaker
It wouldn't be Marvel if it's not all connected. That's right, that's right. How are you guys feeling about Owatu? He's, you know, just kind of there at the beginning of the episode and the end of the episode and Jeffrey Wright's obviously doing a stand up job there. I want him to read me bedtime stories.
00:45:48
Speaker
Okay. From his plaza, which is where he recorded most of his lines. Oh, really? Yeah, I read an article about it. Oh, okay. I like that he's just watching right now. But it's been different in each episode so far. He said some of the exact same things, but he didn't say all these exact same things and not in the same order, basically.
00:46:16
Speaker
He kind of just opened with the same thing, right? Space reality. I feel like by the end of the season, we could take all of his dialogue and kind of like put it together and it will be like him just continuing off of where he left off last week. I like that. I feel like we're getting more about it.
00:46:37
Speaker
It's like when you get like a box, like Blu-ray or DVD or book set. And when you line all the spines next to each other, you get this picture
Are the What If episodes interconnected?
00:46:45
Speaker
altogether. That'd be cool. That's cool. Yeah. It kind of reiterates what you were saying about like, these are what if scenarios, but what if it's like all in the same timeline? Um, I think this kind of like doubles that. Like he's actually only sitting in one universe right now when just kind of explaining things as he goes and watching the different planets. So we are actually seeing one.
00:47:08
Speaker
branch or parallel timeline based off of what we've seen of our heroes, instead of a bunch of different worlds. These could actually have an Avengers moment or an intertwining moment. That's what I'm thinking. I'm wondering if all these episodes of season one of What If are going to be our phase one of What If, and we'll get that final culmination moment. And then eventually down the line, we'll get the culmination of the various What Ifs.
00:47:37
Speaker
I need it. That makes sense. Let's do it. Yeah. All right. Anything else you need to say about episode two of what if, what if T'Challa was a Star-Lord? I feel like his father is a fixed point in time because his thinking of how Wakanda should still be cut off from the rest of the world is the same. Sure.
00:48:04
Speaker
Which I just thought was interesting. And we didn't talk a lot about Peter Quill. Oh yeah, yeah. We're totally, we can't leave that on the table. Yeah, we mentioned it earlier on, but I thought it was cool how they brought him up as like an after credit thing. It's so funny. As laughable a moment it is, it is. It's got a moment of darkness to it too, because like we've been celebrating the impact T'Challa's had on this universe the entire episode, but you really got to wonder what is a guy like Peter Quill
00:48:36
Speaker
who's been stuck at a dead-end job at a Dairy Queen. Of course, the moment that he's given the opportunity for a little bit of power, he's gonna run with it. He's gonna make so much weird, but he's not gonna have any regard for anyone else because he's still an asshole, I imagine. In a lot to even mentions, he was like, yeah, things actually get a little bit darker after that, but we'll cover that later. I was like, oh, wait, no, tell me now, tell me now. I'll cancel work, tell me now.
00:48:59
Speaker
So is that, you know, is Peter Quill joining Ego going to be the big bad, the version of Thanos for this? I think so. It could be. It could be. That could be the Avengers level event. I'd like to see it. Yeah. Give me more Kurt Russell and then maybe we can get a Kurt Russell and Wyatt Russell performance together. Oh, Scotty. Say again.
00:49:28
Speaker
Did Kurt Russell reprise his role? He did. He did. But it was not Chris Pratt. Right. Okay. Did a good job sounding like Chris Pratt again. Did Peter Quill say anything? He said we're closed or something. Yeah, he's like one short line. I feel like it was too short of a line for me to determine if it sounded like Chris Pratt or not.
00:49:50
Speaker
Yeah. Andy Dwyer. Whatever you want to say. Yeah. Now I'm just looking forward to next week's episode already. They're leaving us wanting more. I'm just going to watch this one again. Yeah. Yeah. I guess my final thoughts here is just on the subject of ego and then talking about Tachaka being a fixed point
Yondu's role as a father figure to T'Challa
00:50:10
Speaker
in time. I guess the one character we really didn't highlight on too much was Yondu and Yondu is very much a father figure in these stories as well.
00:50:19
Speaker
And I guess the main thing with him is that he finds a kinship in terms of being an explorer with this kid. I guess T'Challa has a profound impact on him too. I mean, we saw Peter Quill running away.
00:50:36
Speaker
And you made that joke about they never tasted Terran before. So I guess I guess we did cover Yondu well enough. Yeah, I mean, he does. He is softened, but he also was kind of willing to betray him a little bit because, yeah, right. The sequence of events is kind of strange when Nebula comes to get them.
00:50:55
Speaker
True. You got Korath being so excited about him being a triple agent. Like he thinks they're all geniuses. You are so cool. Classic Star-Lord. Yeah, he's basically my best friend if you want to use terms. We didn't get any Shuri dialogue. No. That was sad. But we get Okoye. No, but Yondu was very like, that's my boy type of thing.
00:51:23
Speaker
Oh yeah. Oh, and then when, when he meets T'Chaka, it's like, oh yeah, I guess you're his real dad, aren't you? Your son's a galactic hero, sir. Aw. And he's, he's willing to fully admit to his wrongdoing, but then that's when T'Chaka, or excuse me, T'Challa steps in and is like, he found me, he saved me. Eventually brought me back to you. Yeah, just like water under the bridge, being the bigger person. He's happy with how his life went.
00:51:50
Speaker
Yeah. Got to see all these galaxies who wouldn't be. And now he can be the Black Panther and Star Lord. Star Panther.
00:52:00
Speaker
That's better than I was going to say. I thought about it. I was like, nope, light your tongue in their mind. Prune it from your brain. Okay. Let's, let's get back to the sacred timeline. All right. Uh, any, any final thoughts here? This has been fun. Such a great episode. What is the next episode? Do we know?
00:52:26
Speaker
I think we do. I was hoping I wouldn't ask. I was gonna like, keep my brain blank as long as- Oh well nevermind, we don't have to talk about it. Yeah. I've kind of been-
00:52:36
Speaker
for the listeners. Yeah, we'll find out what it's gonna be for the listeners here one second. I should have it at the ready, but I don't. Well, hopefully it's just as unpredictable as this episode was. I have to imagine, it would be kind of disappointing if like they up the ante and then kind of go backwards and we get like another beat for beat movie. And again, I feel like I sound like I'm like crapping on that first episode. I did love it. And I felt like it was the right choice for our first episode. Let's see episode.
00:53:06
Speaker
As far as I'm seeing, we do not know what episode three is going to be. I know there are people out there that have seen episode three, early reviewers and whatnot, but I'm not seeing. I've people out there have seen Chung Chi and it's really making me nervous. That's true as well. I'm scared to be on the internet. I know. Yeah, that's not for another couple of weeks, people. Get your tickets. They're on sale now, depending on your location. Be safe.
00:53:36
Speaker
Yeah, well, yeah, very true. Do what's right for your family and your area. But anywho, I guess I will do what I should have done at the beginning of the episode that I totally forgot to do is here at Animation Deliberation, we started this podcast with a show that is near and dear to our hearts, Young Justice.
Young Justice season 4 announcement
00:53:59
Speaker
We've already got our coverage of Young Justice season two.
00:54:02
Speaker
and one on our feed available for you. And we've actually just started our coverage of season three. We've got the first episode of that in the bank. That'll be coming out soon. Once we get through this, what if coverage, but I want to let everyone know it's October 21st. Set the date on your calendars. We're getting season four of Young Justice on HBO Max, October 21st. It's a great show. You guys got me watching it.
00:54:31
Speaker
All credit goes to Zuhair. Yeah. Zuhair got me watching it. And I don't know how many other people. I'm just happy I have people to talk to. Yeah. You guys also had some other great news this week. Oh, right, right, right. Thank you for bringing
Podcast's success celebration
00:54:49
Speaker
that up. We broke the top 10 for animation and manga podcasts in the United States earlier this week.
00:54:59
Speaker
But then we've actually, so we were at number nine when we made this last check, but Zuhair have you checked the charts since then? When I posted about it, it was 15. I have checked the charts as of today.
00:55:20
Speaker
Suspense. Sitting at number four in both the United States and Great Britain. That's right. Both the United States and Great Britain. We are number four. That is amazing. That is amazing. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you to all the listeners. Thank you to the Stranded Panda Network. You guys came out in full force and have supported us. It's awesome. Yeah. We are super excited. That is so exciting.
00:55:44
Speaker
Yeah. Look at you guys. Keep up those five star reviews, please. Please. Actually, give us any star review because I'm an artist. I like constructive criticism. There's something that you'd like to see. Give us three or four, but please write in an email. Give us a five star review with constructive criticism.
00:56:01
Speaker
Make it five stars and then tell us your what if version of the podcast improved and don't say replacing me as host All right
00:56:17
Speaker
What you got, sir? To all the people, we just mentioned all the people who started watching Young Justice because I wouldn't shut up about it. For all the people who have been watching Demon Slayer and have been patiently waiting for me, thank you so much for your patience. It's just been content overload right now. Now that we've knocked out Master of the Universe, we've knocked out Bad Batch, we're working on What If, and we're wrapping up on Young Justice fairly soon.
00:56:41
Speaker
We do have a Season 2 of Demon Slayer coming up this year, and I definitely want to talk to all of you about Season 1 and Mugen Train before we get into that. Thank you so much for your patience. It will be coming. I'm very excited to talk to you about it. Woohoo! And Hailey, thank you again for lending us your time as well as your thoughts and your voice. Yeah, this has been so great. Yeah, yeah. Let us know what you have going on. Where can the people find what you're doing?
00:57:12
Speaker
The People Can Find, Brian V. Klein and I talking about comic books on the Source Pages podcast, which is available wherever you listen to podcasts. We are getting ready to record next week about Shang-Chi. And if you want to know which comic books we're covering for that movie, we have Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, and all of those are listed there.
00:57:35
Speaker
But our main purpose is to cover novels and comic books that are used as source materials for upcoming movies and TV shows So we're very heavily focused on the MC right now But I know Scotty you and BBK are gonna talk about Dune right in the fall because that movies coming out and I'll be the Standby listener asking questions as the person who hasn't read the book. That's kind of my role Fantastic job
00:58:02
Speaker
So we're having a lot of fun. We've had just like these guys, great support from the network. Super appreciate everybody giving us reviews and five stars. And if you want to email us, we're at spark podcast at gmail.com spark with a C. And what's the tagline of that show? Never judge a book by its movie. I like it. I like it.
00:58:27
Speaker
I'll have to up the ante here because all I've got is keep tuning in. That's T-O-O-N-I-N. I can't say it's the most original tagline, but we'll take it. Stay well. All right. We out.
00:58:43
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash svchat. Tune in next time and remember, stay well.
00:59:11
Speaker
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