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What to Know About Trading your Photography Services - Episode 31
86 Plays1 year ago
If you're in the photography industry, or you're trying to break into it, you have probably considered setting up different trades for your services. This can be, asking a model to model for you, for free, in exchange for an edited gallery, and now YOU have photos to use for your portfolio. Trading can also be done in destination photography, such as only asking your client to pay your travel fees, so that YOU can travel and work for free. The topic of trading your photography services can get very messy within the photography industry, so we're here to help iron it out.
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Transcript
Introduction & Year Reflection
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello, everyone. It's hard to believe it's almost the end of November already. What the heck? Oh my gosh. Has this year flown by for everyone else? Like is it just us, just me? 100%. Oh my gosh.
Should Photographers Work for Free?
00:00:15
Speaker
Anyways, today we're tackling a topic that can be a bit of a hot button issue for some people. We're talking about whether or not photographers should offer up their services for free or in a trade deal or in exchange for just travel fees, no payment, that kind of thing.
00:00:29
Speaker
There are a lot of ways photographers can do this, so we're going to get into some specifics, but really we want to talk more generally about this topic kind of overall.
Podcast Introduction: 'Art of Intention'
00:00:38
Speaker
We're going to walk you through some of the pros and cons of this and when you should do it, when you should avoid it, and more coming right up. Welcome to the Art of Intention podcast with Beth and Ayla, two best friends turned creative entrepreneurs.
00:00:50
Speaker
This is a place for us to discuss everything business, friendships, and faith, and occasionally more. We're so excited for today's episode. We think you're gonna love it. Stay tuned.
Types of Trade Deals in Photography
00:01:05
Speaker
All right, so just jumping right in, as far as I know, I'm pretty confident that everyone has seen or heard of a photographer doing some kind of a trade, I guess, like a trade deal for their photo services, whether it's offering to photograph an event for free in exchange for the travel fees or gear fees, or maybe they've partnered with influencers to do a free photo shoot in exchange for exposure, or maybe even they've taken photos for brands in exchange for keeping a product from the brand, etc.
00:01:34
Speaker
So all these things can fall under the category of a trade deal. At least that's how we're talking about it today. So we will be referring to any kind of deal like that as a trade deal just kind of throughout the whole episode. But as far as I know, everyone will generally understand what that means.
00:01:50
Speaker
Right, yeah, exactly.
Perspectives on Trade Deals
00:01:52
Speaker
And basically with this topic, there are three main schools of thought. One is that trade deals are always bad, that you should charge what you're worth because otherwise you bring down the value of the whole industry if you offer free or cheap deals. Thought number two is the idea that when you're starting out, it's okay to do it. If you're smart about it, it's something you have to be careful about. And the third school of thought is where some people think it's perfectly fine. There are no pitfalls at all.
00:02:19
Speaker
And that anyone who complains is basically either uninformed or just jealous that you were able to do that. And I think for me.
00:02:26
Speaker
Personally, I think overall the truth lies a little bit in between one and two, actually. The truth is over the years, photographers offering cheap and really free trade deals and photo shoots has cheapened and hurt the image of the industry overall, to be honest. However, we're all individuals with free will and doing something once or a couple of times that helps your business and that you really think through and are careful about isn't going to wreck the whole industry either. So that's where I think the truth kind of lies, just kind of heading into this to make it clear.
00:02:55
Speaker
Right, I'm so torn with how I feel about it because, again, it's like not a photographer speaking. I don't know if I have really all the ins and outs of what that means. I as a person, I'm a big believer in like,
00:03:10
Speaker
If I think about like small business doing trades and stuff, like I've been a part of a lot of small businesses that do like, Oh, you deliver, you know, fresh greens for us in exchange for coffee.
Bartering vs. Business: Personal Opinions
00:03:21
Speaker
And you do this, like, I like that culture a lot of exchanging almost like a barter.
00:03:26
Speaker
system, you know, like, oh, like this for this. And I could see if I were in the photography industry trying to set that stuff up. Um, I don't know, Beth, if you've ever listened to this person, I don't listen to his show a ton, but I'll listen to it now and again. But it's the podcast is called Make Your Break with Jai Long. And never heard of it. He's like an insane entrepreneur, like 100% entrepreneur brain has like started multiple companies and did multiple companies like just does crazy
00:03:56
Speaker
just crazy
Industry Influences and Opinions
00:03:57
Speaker
stuff. Like some of its businesses, like I know what they are and some of it's like, what do you even do? Like this is so crazy, but he's a photographer as well. And he's really interesting. He's a big hot take person and he's got takes about like trading low prices and like what people have to say about it, cheapening the industry. And he's kind of of the opinion of like running your business how you want, like, yeah, you know, run your business how you want.
Impact of Cheap Services
00:04:20
Speaker
If, if you hear about a family, maybe that's like going through something and you decide, Hey,
00:04:26
Speaker
Discounted wedding, you know, basically is like that's that's up to you and if people get mad that you get actually more work because of that because maybe it's like Not like the couple should say Oh, he'll give you a free wedding if you do that obviously not but if they generally give you good Recommendations out of that and that boosts your business and people get mad. He's like, well, I don't know Maybe you should try that so that's kind of his opinion and I do like that that feels more human to me, but I understand also
00:04:52
Speaker
what it can do for photography like if everyone's offering like oh $50 sessions and they're okay like they look like $50 sessions to be honest i can understand where people might have a hard time hiring somebody like you like a luxury destination photographer because they're like well last time
00:05:07
Speaker
I got my pictures taken, they didn't look very good, so why bother?
Complexities of Trade Deals
00:05:11
Speaker
I can see where that would happen. I definitely get outside. I think there's amazing potential and power in trade deals, but as we're going to get into it, I think there's definitely a way to go about it to make it the best for everybody. You want to be smart about it. You don't just want to be like, free, free, free, free, but I want all this in return.
00:05:30
Speaker
Yeah, I actually, like I said, there's three schools of thought and it sounds like he falls more into the third, which I'm, I don't fully disagree with that. I've done different trade deals. And also I think the concept too, of like, if you see a family in need and you do something cheap for them, or some people will kind of do a little bit of an outreach. They go, okay, if you have like, can't, like I've done a free cancer session before stuff like that, that I do think is different. I'm not really talking about that. I'm talking more about like different. Yeah.
00:05:56
Speaker
Yeah, I'm talking about different kinds of deals. I think that that's just good hearted and that's just you. Any business. I remember there being stories of when I was little, in our small town, people were poor or hungry and people would give them free things and it's like, that's different. I think that should always be a level of kindness that any business can practice.
00:06:18
Speaker
And then I do like what you said about how businesses, small businesses kind of coming together. Again, I agree with all that. I think that there is a place and a time for trades and deals and stuff like that. But there has been, I think I want to talk a little bit too about how there's kind of,
00:06:34
Speaker
a really big trend. And I don't want to say trend because it's been happening for a few years and it might not stop, but people kind of misunderstanding the purpose of them and how to go about them. And they end up hurting themselves. Like what they, it's photographers who think, Oh, the only way to get into like destination photography is to offer a free wedding somewhere else or just for travel fees. But then they misunderstand what, how expensive it's actually going to be for them and what they need covered. Cause they think travel fee, we'll get into this too, but they just the airplane ticket or the hotel.
00:07:02
Speaker
or both, and it's like, okay, all of a sudden they have spent thousands of dollars and they don't get as much nurture as they thought. And also just how even if you do a trade or some kind of deal, there still needs to be contracts, it still needs to be very careful, otherwise you're opening yourself to something unwise. And yeah, like I said before, it has cheapened the industry just in that mindset is so big in this, like with a lot of things, with that kind of everything in society, like it's really more mindset than we realize.
00:07:29
Speaker
It seems like it's all numbers and all statistics, but it's actually just mindset. The only reason people can charge what they charge with photography is because people see value in photographs and in photo shoots. And if people think that photo shoots are just, oh, anybody's aunt Sally can pick up a camera and do just as good as someone who went to school for it or someone who's been doing it for a decade, then it's going to cheapen the industry in that way. And it's going to make, yeah, like you said, people like me or other
00:07:56
Speaker
professional full-time photographers who have to pay for licenses, they have to pay taxes, they have to do all this stuff. If somebody's unlicensed, random friend can do it and they would pay them a really cheap rate.
00:08:08
Speaker
then they're not going to understand everything that people put into for a legitimate business. Anyways, we'll move on to ... So you're saying there is a place for it. It can be a good thing, but you should understand what you're getting yourself into for your sake, actually, and for the sake of the people you're doing this work for.
00:08:28
Speaker
say more so for your sake, because that's where I see. I mean, because I'm talking to anybody and you could be a model listening to this. Someone who likes to do like model for free. You could be, you could be a business owner of like some, like a jewelry company and be listening to this for your sake. Be careful what you're getting into. And yeah, trade things are not bad. You're right. Ayla, when you're summing it up, yeah, they're not bad.
00:08:47
Speaker
But I think there are a lot of things with it becoming so popular to be influencing and trading and all this stuff I think it's become something that now needs to be addressed people need to understand deeper because It's still business business owner and you're running a business like yeah, you still want to be smart
Benefits vs. Pitfalls of Trade Deals
00:09:04
Speaker
Yeah. And since the creation of social media, I've noticed cause there would be those travel photographers who would do something and they're like, Oh, this was like what used to, when it used to be really rare, they would say, this was a trade deal. Like I, they just paid for my travel and I'm here for free. It's like, okay.
00:09:17
Speaker
Now that through the creation of social media, now that people have seen that for so many years, I think they don't understand that those people who did that, they might've just shared that in just a sentence like that, like, oh, this was a trade deal. But you don't know what their contract looked like. You don't know what services they had them pay for, even though they said it was a trade deal. And they say, we just did it for travel fees. Well, we're all their travel fees. They probably included so much more than you realize. So then
00:09:42
Speaker
Again, if you're uneducated or you're starting out or you're new or you're impulsive, you might get yourself into a situation that is not like the one you saw. You may think it is, but you have no idea what really happened. It's social media. You don't see everything behind the scenes. Yeah. Well, cool. Let's dive in then. Let's jump into what we think are the main reasons why someone should or may want to do a deal like this. What are the benefits?
00:10:07
Speaker
Yeah, from the outside looking in, Beth, I guess I would say the benefits of a trade deal typically are number one experience, especially if you're building your portfolio. I actually when I jumped into editing, a big part of it is having a portfolio and the big conundrum is how do I get a portfolio if I've never edited for anybody before. And again, I was lucky to know you
00:10:28
Speaker
and we started working together in that way so i was able to build a beautiful portfolio because it was your stuff so and that gave me a great head start right so experience building your portfolio absolutely a valid reason to pursue something like this exposure of working with a brand or influencer i feel like this can be
00:10:47
Speaker
tricky because you do need exposure but of course people might offer you like oh do all this this and this for free for your exposure and you're like great exposure doesn't put food on my table but all right probably good but also yeah to the photographer don't let people just keep telling you oh it's for exposure like eventually you gotta get paid but
00:11:04
Speaker
Yeah, I would say really quickly to inject it. You'll find out pretty fast whether or not those work for you. Because if you do something with a celebrity, yeah, that exposure is probably going to work for you. But to be honest, just the person with like 10,000 followers, even like 100,000 followers on Instagram, it might not do as much as you think.
00:11:25
Speaker
But sometimes that's something people have to find out by doing
Monetary Compensation and Stability
00:11:28
Speaker
it first. And that's what we, when you hear, if you're a photographer who hasn't done this and you're like, well, I don't see the problem or some kind of brand, you're like, I don't see the problem with like doing something for exposure. Well, you can try it and then you'll find out what we mean when we say doesn't put food on the table. Um, and we'll talk more about that. There's again, I, there's specific times I think you really should and can, but let's get a more into that. Keep going with what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. So generally if you are going into a trade deal, you're aware of what it is.
00:11:53
Speaker
one of the benefits will be exposure. So experience, exposure, and then possibly free stuff or travel if you're doing an exchange deal with a brand or an exchange in destination. Those are some of the things. So Beth, that's what I would say that I kind of see. Do you have anything to add to that? Does that sound accurate?
00:12:14
Speaker
Yeah, I would say those are the three main reasons, 100%. And I would just add to number three, the travel one, and maybe we'll get a little more, no, we will get more into this for sure too. But number three is not always what it seems. Yeah, I think that's a very big main reason, especially if we're talking to destination photographers or people who want to be destination photographers, they want to travel for free. That's like the top reason that you see for so many people, but it's not always what it seems. And that's my main heart behind doing this episode today is to
00:12:43
Speaker
kind of explain more about that because the allure of free travel draws people in but you can get in trouble if you aren't careful so anyways we'll talk more about that. Well yeah so let's let's talk about that then so yeah those are the benefits pretty cut and dry I would say and then we already kind of touched on the cons but the first one I would say is a con of a trade deal is you put in a lot of work and the payment the exposure the experience all good things but it does not pay
00:13:09
Speaker
your bills. And that's where I'm thinking if you're starting out and maybe supplementing this business that you're trying to start with a full or part-time other job, you might have a bit more room for experience. But if you are jumping in full-time, this is what you do. You need to be, I think, very careful of trading for experience. And I'm not saying you can't do it, but I'm saying make sure you're booking jobs and stuff that you're also getting paid for because
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, exposure doesn't put money in your wallet really all the time, I suppose, but not with that job. You won't see actual monetary pay from a trade likely, or not as much as you're supposed to, rather.
Workload and Quality Concerns
00:13:49
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. And when you were saying that, that reminded me kind of what you were saying earlier, what we were talking about a minute ago with it kind of cheapening the industry. What we've seen a lot of is new photographers, hobbyists, making an expectation among clients for full-time photographers to do the same thing. So like if you do not depend on this for your bills, it's just your hobby, or if you're new and you still work your full-time job or your part-time job, and this is just like on the side, you don't depend on this for income, you are able to,
00:14:18
Speaker
financially offer things for free or really, really cheap. The problem is you are teaching people and clients that that's how much photography is worth. But for people like us who need to pay our bills for that, and again, we are unlike you, not you, but unlike these people, we have to pay taxes, we have to pay for insurance, we have to pay for all of our thousands of dollars of gear and all this stuff.
00:14:44
Speaker
And it's like, that's kind of where that comes in. Like you said, the payment doesn't pay your bills. If you're listening to this, you're like, that's fine. It doesn't need to pay my bills. Just again, remember, if you want to ever do this full-time, you're hurting your future self potentially, especially because when you're doing really cheap work, you're building a clientele of people who go, oh, this is how much this person costs. I'll stick with you forever. If you'll do my family session for $50, you'll be my family photographer forever. Well, if you decide I'm going to jump into this for full-time or raise my prices, guess who you're probably going to lose as a client, that person.
00:15:13
Speaker
All those people. Oh, street wisdom. That makes so much sense, actually. Like, well, it does because like, okay, this is a side tangent. But one thing that I that I don't always love when I scroll through, like my business Instagram, it's mostly photographers is this constant need to explain why photography is so expensive. Like,
00:15:33
Speaker
Cause I, it can come off as jaded. It can come off as like, my only, my entire Instagram personality is like telling people why I'm expensive. Like I don't love that. But, but of course some of it should absolutely, you know, like some people don't understand at this point, especially if maybe they're not looking for a luxury experience, but they stumble onto a luxury photographer's page and they're like, why are you so expensive? You know, it's all niche and stuff like that. But what you just explained sums it up so perfectly of, oh yeah, you start out doing it for 50 bucks, 50 bucks.
00:16:03
Speaker
And suddenly you're like, Hey, I'm good at this. This is what I want to do. It's time to make this livable.
00:16:08
Speaker
And then, yeah, some people might understand, like, some people do understand when prices go up, and then some might be like, okay, I'll find the next person who's 50 bucks, and that can hurt. And I'm not saying the first time you pick up a camera, start charging $1,000, because, you know, work probably won't be worth $1,000. But I'm saying, like, I had to come to the same with editing. I started not too cheap, but I started at a price that was recommended I start out at to see if I was even going to keep doing it.
00:16:34
Speaker
And then I've raised my prices every year since, not because that's what I have to do, but because with every year I've gotten better, I've gotten faster and I can offer a more professional experience to my clients, more comfortable charging more than what I charged that many years ago because it came with experience.
00:16:51
Speaker
Yeah, anyway, and then the next point we have with this another con was you can end up overworked with work that is underpaid and your paid clients will suffer. So Beth, I want to hear what you have to say about this, but it also made me think of like, I can't remember if I told this before, but I have tried to kind of make a living as an artist, like going into painting, not very seriously, like
00:17:15
Speaker
I don't know I learned very quickly that I don't like making painting my job because I just like it's so creative and so much of a hobby for it like and I don't know I went about it in a really weird way but
00:17:26
Speaker
I, oh my gosh, I did not charge enough for my work. I did like, I did oil painting on canvas and I would be like, oh yeah, 20 bucks. And again, it was because I was like, this is my hobby. This isn't my full time. Like I just want somebody to have my art up in their house, which is true. Like I still paint for people. It's usually a gift. And if they really want to commission something to me, I price it out completely differently than I used to.
00:17:53
Speaker
I still don't charge like thousands, honestly, I just like, I don't know if I'll ever feel that way. But I actually did just did one recently. I just did a painting recently, and I asked a certain amount for it. And the person who was commissioning me was like, it was almost embarrassing to like, undershoot my own work, right? Yeah. Anyway, I went through I started doing this at the beginning of the pandemic. And I was really lucky to have people who wanted artwork.
00:18:20
Speaker
And I was charging like, okay, probably 100 bucks here, 150 bucks there, made some pocket money, but the hours that it took me, oh my gosh, like, I was paying myself like 12 cents an hour for how long some of this stuff took me. So it's like,
00:18:35
Speaker
Yeah. Anyway, that's like a whole different career, but you can end up overworked and underpaid and your paid clients will suffer. Not to say you can't do a trade deal now and again, but if you're constantly doing this, it is not sustainable whatsoever. Exactly. Well, it's the concept of time is money, especially the busier you get. Because you asked for my thoughts on it, I will share. Please do.
00:19:01
Speaker
I think that this is something that everybody will probably learn at some point. I learned this when I was raising my prices, but during certain times I'd be like, oh, I'm going to really lower them just to get more work so I can make more money. And that's such a tricky concept. Oh dear. Oh dear. Because yeah, sure. You'll end up with more work.
00:19:22
Speaker
You know, but I won't go into it. Obviously, oftentimes it's going to be work you don't love, but yeah, guess who's going to suffer the clients who paid you your preferred rate and are now in your queue of like 50 clients. That's a exaggeration. Obvious. It's not that, but you know, you get my point. It's, and then they're frustrated by timing and you're too busy. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yes.
00:19:48
Speaker
even without having really low unpaid work, it's hard during busy season to not be overworked because you know, it's just busy season. It's just busy season and you have to have enough to like pay your bills, but it's such a, it's such a balancing act. You're always going to be behind a little bit in busy season anyways, but like now imagine if you're just offering really underpaid work. Now you're going to be even more busy than normal, paid even less. Cause again, you think that you're like you said, like you just said,
00:20:13
Speaker
I think you're making more, but really per hour it's nothing.
Pricing Strategies & Low Pricing Risks
00:20:18
Speaker
And when you're sitting there miserable, you realize, well, this is what they mean when they say time is money and you have no time for anything else in your life. That's kind of, I think everybody gets that concept, but yeah.
00:20:27
Speaker
Yeah. Well, no, I've always thought similar like with other things I've thought about starting. I'm always like, well, I'll just be cheap. Like I sometimes I'm like, well, I'll just own a coffee shop and none of the drinks will be more than five bucks and I'll be the less expensive one and everyone's going to want to come to me. But then it's like, how do I pay for my supply? Like, you know, like.
00:20:46
Speaker
it it's nice on paper but it just doesn't end up working out that way especially with something service-based like photography yeah sure you're making a bunch of money you're working 24 hours a day and you're not even making the same amount as the other photographer who charges a bit more who does half the weddings you do and makes more than you do you know like exactly there's some man there's some like crazy
00:21:09
Speaker
insanely good photographers I follow who talk about having like 10 weddings a year and then they show and I grant again you don't know the ins and outs of everybody's life but like their house looks nice their stuff looks kind of nice like their gear is nice and they're like oh yeah like I it's not like they're lazy or anything but they're just not it's not like oh double weddings every weekend double like but it's like oh yeah you know one to two weddings a month that's all I gotta take on
00:21:34
Speaker
And I've priced it out to where that's livable. And I'm like, man, that's impressive. Well, that should be the goal. And also realizing, again, because we are talking about what you hear versus reality. So as we say this, from my perspective, just a reminder, a lot of those people also have associates. They built a team of associates. So they themselves may only be going to 10 weddings a year, but they have a team that they hire for a wedding in Georgia, a wedding in North Carolina, a wedding in California.
00:22:04
Speaker
And like people inquire with them and if they're busy or they don't want to do that date, they get paid a ton to connect them with another photographer. So there are so many ways. Again, if you want, if you're like, well, I want to take on less, but I need the money to pay my bills and I know I'm overworked, but it's the money that really matters. Find other ways to, you know, there are other ways to do it. But that's not what this episode is about. That's just a side note.
Hidden Costs in Destination Photography
00:22:27
Speaker
Right. But okay. So yeah, go ahead and go into, if you end up like not calculating correctly, like not calculating the trade, I guess like more so this goes with anything, but like specifically destination work, I guess.
00:22:39
Speaker
Yes. So yeah, talking more specifically to destination photographers here, another con of trade deals. Um, this is kind of talking about like, Oh, we want like free travel. Okay. So, um, it might end up costing you money, a trade. So a trade on its face is supposed to be, you both get benefits and it doesn't cost either of you any money or it costs you the same amount.
00:22:57
Speaker
With photographers, a lot of times they don't even calculate editing time as a cost or anything like that. They just go, okay, forget that because whatever. Even if you do that, even if you throw away editing time and how much that is costing you, you can still end up losing money if you don't calculate it right. This is probably something I want to be the biggest takeaway. A lot of people think working in trade for travel fees is just plane ticket, hotel, and food.
00:23:25
Speaker
you have to think about your rental car, you have to think about gas, you have to think about any other transportation like, you know, from the airport to the rental car, entrance fees to different locations around the wedding, road tolls, if you're doing a full wedding trade, you have to think about like gear, you might have to buy just for that location, you know, if you get SD cards, batteries, if you need like certain rain gear, like, for example, when I went to Ireland, even though I work in the rain,
00:23:52
Speaker
here in Hawaii, it's different kinds of things that I need. So for me, something that I had to buy just for that wedding as an example is like certain socks that were warm. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's a, it's just for me, it's like a, it's like a gear fee, I think is more so what I have that categorized under. But now imagine if you were trying to do a trade and you forget to calculate all this stuff. And I think I paid, I bought $600 worth of supplies in preparation for Ireland.
00:24:17
Speaker
And again, I consider myself as someone who has everything a person needs, but Ireland specific supplies, everything from SD cards to batteries to warmth gear and stuff to help with like the climate change it from going from Hawaii to Ireland. Like almost, I think it's between four and $600 of Ireland specific stuff. Now imagine if you think, Oh, I'm just going to charge you for the plane ticket in the hotel and you take care of my food.
00:24:41
Speaker
All of a sudden, you realize you forgot to charge gas for the car they're going to be driving around. You forgot to charge for stuff you need. You could be in debt. If you were doing this as a trade and you have bills at home and you're taking time away from your life and your work to do this trade deal,
00:24:56
Speaker
And then you get back and you didn't make money. You actually lost money. You're behind on work because you spent your time doing this. That's costing you a lot.
Evaluating and Making Trade Deals
00:25:04
Speaker
And that's what I see. I worry about for a lot of you missed out on maybe like two weddings. You could have booked at home rather than this one that you had to spend the day traveling for and coming back for and whatever. And yeah, right. So just be aware that when you, that's what I was saying before, Ayla, when you said like the third thing that people want most, which is true is like free travel or free stuff.
00:25:23
Speaker
you need to be thinking about all that stuff. It's not really, you have to maybe charge for more than you think. Travel fees is more than you think. So, all right, moving on, I would say here's what you have to ask yourself. How much time and effort will I really be investing into this deal? Is it going to hurt or delay my paid jobs to a noticeable amount? Is it the best time, this is a big one, is this the best time to be doing this? If it's your busy season, the answer's maybe not.
00:25:52
Speaker
Is it going to benefit me and my future to a noticeable amount, or am I just doing it for other reasons? Maybe just to say I could do it, maybe just to experiment. And if you have done a trade before, what worked, what didn't, and learned from your past?
00:26:06
Speaker
That's a big one because I I know like I've seen a lot of people in the beginning of their careers and Beth I remember when you first started getting into Destination photography, I don't know if you've actually done a trade or not like just travel fees or not but I've done I think early on I didn't call it a trade but I was like
00:26:27
Speaker
Here's how much I can, it's a discount. Here's like a small amount I'll charge you. And in my head on my end, I was like, I'll just cover the travel fees and I'll do the wedding for free. It didn't go great. Cause you feel, then once you're there too, you're kind of bitter to be honest. And now we're talking on a personal note, I was kind of bitter. I felt like I was like, I'm going to be paid for this. And like, then anything that comes up, any trouble, any extra requests, you're like, are you kidding me? I'm not even being paid. So not obviously I have a bad attitude at a wedding, but you know, in your heart, you're kind of like, this sucks. This sucks.
00:26:54
Speaker
But so I've done trade and I've also worked with small businesses to help each other out. I've done model. I've had a couple of people model for me before where it's not paid, but I paid them in the photos. That's a very common one in photography. Yeah. Yeah. You get a gallery model. And I think that's, I think that's pretty solid. That's on a smaller scale and I think works out for people. But I just remember when you were first breaking into destination and you would tell me, and again, not, not like you're like bad at your job or anything, but it was new and you.
00:27:23
Speaker
I know that you won't pester your other successful people about how to figure it out. You're like, I'm going to figure it out. And you're like, I probably won't even like their advice. I'm just going to go. You're very much like, I want to do it. I want to try figuring it out. And I think that serves you a lot in a lot of ways. But also, I remember you saying, OK, I know this for next time. I probably didn't get paid enough here. Or I know this for next time. This was chaotic because of the way I planned it out. Because now I know you're like, this is a side note. But you get there a day early.
00:27:52
Speaker
and you give yourself a day after and like all this stuff that you had to learn and like definitely be willing to learn like if you and again it's not the end of the world if you go on one of these trade jobs especially a destination one and then yeah realize you lost money not the end of the world you're going to be okay but don't let it happen again sit down and take the time to do the math that's a hard lesson for me i hate sitting down and crunching the numbers i'd rather just eyeball it and hope it works out but sit down take the time
00:28:20
Speaker
And I like the other point you made, Beth, about is this the best time to be doing this? It's the same with what you say about attending workshops. Like, is attending a workshop in the middle of October a good idea? Like, probably, there's probably, no. I don't even, I don't think anyone would even be hosting a workshop at that time. We all know better. But like, you know,
00:28:42
Speaker
Is you doing it at this time going to benefit your business? Or is it going to stress you out? Is it going to cost you other jobs? Is it going to do all these things? Then don't worry about it. There's probably plenty of opportunity. And I don't know. I think I like the idea.
00:28:54
Speaker
Not saying you can't do the whole like you just pay my travel fees all your wedding effective way it looks like to break into the destination industry, especially document all that you're putting it on your Instagram, you're making that a part of your brand, I think you can be very effective. But don't forget about the weddings that happen in your community or even just an hour away.
00:29:15
Speaker
Like don't forget about the stuff that's right there in front of you. And think about trade on a smaller scale. Think about a flower shop. Oh, you want some brand photos? I'll do those, you know, I'll do a 30 minute session for free. Can you do flowers for this event? Or, you know, like whatever would, again, equally benefit both people. You each would have to do some math.
00:29:37
Speaker
and figure
Advice on Beneficial Trade Deals
00:29:38
Speaker
that out. Or yeah, I need a model. Do you and your husband want a model for me and you guys get the photos back? I like the small deals a lot. They seem a lot less messy. They seem a lot like everyone gets more time for their money. And again, not that you're doing this all of the time. I don't think that should be your main thing. Now and again, for the sake of the benefits we set in the beginning, portfolio, all of that.
00:30:00
Speaker
it's a good idea but i hope it's like just kinda told everybody to definitely be careful because at the end of the day it is still your business that you're running here it is still your business your reputation your money like all of this stuff it should be taken
00:30:15
Speaker
Seriously, I think photographers, we're all artists, you know, and it can be like, Oh, well, I'll just like go with the flow. I'll just do this. But like you're, you're a business owner to like take it seriously, be professional and expect that out of the people you're trading with too. Yeah. Oh, that's great. I love that. All of that is just spot on. Thank you.
00:30:33
Speaker
I've never been around for it, but I have thoughts. I probably vent to you so much. You're just like, let me tell you something. You and I have traded services before, but we're also besties. It's easier. It is easier, and it's easier to also have boundaries with your best friend and pick, oh, no, I'm too busy, or, oh, no, this works for me. Or, well, actually, can we talk about that a little bit more? I think we need to adjust this for my benefit or for your benefit. Quick note, one more note about exposure as you were talking and you said,
00:31:03
Speaker
Make sure that the work is equal, the exposure, the benefits are equal. A quick note I forgot to say earlier about exposure. Also make sure that it's exposure to people that are going to turn into clients and not just exposure that's numbers, like number exposure.
00:31:19
Speaker
Yes. No, that's perfect. You have a lot of good stuff to say. Could probably be a whole other episode about exposure. It doesn't matter if it's not to clients you want. And like with your Instagram, if you, you know, in the beginning, yeah, you're probably going to do jobs you don't love very much. It's no shade to anybody. It just, you're figuring out your brand. You're figuring out what you like to do. So there might be photos that you don't like very much.
00:31:43
Speaker
you wouldn't go post them and be like I want to do more work like this because you don't and it's the same with the exposure like who's offering you exposure and who would it be going to if it doesn't benefit you in your business or it's not anybody that you hope to work with in the future then it's probably not the best deal I took on a
00:32:01
Speaker
quite a few editing jobs at the beginning of my career that I knew I was never going to share to my Instagram because it wasn't work I wanted to be doing. I made some money, but I knew I was able to just kind of slowly not have those editing relationships anymore because I was like, this isn't really what I want to be doing later on. And in my mind, I was like, now I have the luxury to say this, but I'm like, if it's not going to make it to my Instagram,
00:32:25
Speaker
than I am cheating the person because my heart's not in that work. It's not what I want. So, and it wasn't like I cut off a client because I was like, your stuff's bad. Not at all. Later, they either found an editor that worked better for them. Or I was like, Hey, here's an editor who actually does exactly what I'm trying to do for you. And it's not well. So here's somebody who would be better, you know, so yeah, yeah, same with if, and that's a way.
00:32:51
Speaker
that you could help out somebody else in the industry. So like, you know, Beth and I, we're gonna know lots of photographers. I actually still get editing inquiries quite a bit, and it's for like a bright and airy, true to color style that I won't work with as much. I've got editors on the docket who will be better for that. Yes, same with an exposure trade. Hey, I'd love these photos taken. You'll get, you know, I don't love this deal, but like you'll get a, you'll get, you know, a post on my Instagram.
00:33:17
Speaker
but you don't like the content of the shoot. You don't like what it would end up being. It doesn't reflect your normal work, but you know somebody who would be great. Oh my gosh, take that time to be like, this photographer will do that for you or talk to them about it. And that's, we talk about community all the time. That's the way to help each other out. You don't have to just shut people down and be like, I don't do trades. Find somebody who will. And yes,
00:33:39
Speaker
and help each other to the top. Exactly. Like what we talked about in our community over competition episode, there's ways of being a part of this community in the right way. Don't be afraid to recommend, like you said, another photographer, because guess what? Then that photographer is going to go, oh my gosh, now work comes across my desk that doesn't align with me and I really don't want to take it. Guess who I'm going to send it to? All those relationships matter. Same thing with the vendor. Maybe that business owner didn't end up getting to work with you and you pass them along to someone else.
00:34:06
Speaker
they still might recommend clients to you. You know, if it's like a flower shop, right? And they have like a vision for some kind of like moody themed out, like, you know, thing that you don't really do and you pass it on to someone else. Let's say a client comes to them who has like the type of wedding you're into. They're going to, I know a photographer who has this style. So that's an amazing point. I'm so glad you made that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, awesome. Anyways. Yeah. I don't know if I have anything else to say on it, but that was super good. I like,
00:34:33
Speaker
Yeah, I think everything got pretty rounded out. I could honestly probably keep going. I think just talking about community could be so much. There's so many ways you can approach it. But today was like community as far as trades go and it's like overall consensus.
00:34:51
Speaker
you can go for it, be educated on it, and be careful. And overall, you're trying to benefit others and yourself actually first, honestly, and then whoever you're trading with. Yeah, you're not running a scam, and you're not trying to just get as much free stuff as possible. Just be, like you said, educated. And yeah, be smart about it, and be aware of the effect it does have on the community. Because if you want to be part of the photo community or the editing community or whatever, you're going to be affected by your actions in the future.
00:35:20
Speaker
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00:35:39
Speaker
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