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Best of Raw Vol. 1
1.2k Plays25 days ago
It's almost time for the regular weekly show to return, but as you continue to wait, here's a collection of the best moments from our Thursday Night Raw segments so far!
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Transcript
Introduction to Zencastr
00:00:00
Speaker
This show is recorded using Zencaster. If you are a podcaster or you want to be a podcaster and you want to be able to record remotely, you can do so using Zencaster. They also have hosting options and you can let them know that we sent you. Follow the link in our show notes or in the episode description and sign up for an account on Zencaster now to start recording your own podcast.
Raw Moments in Comic Book History
00:00:32
Speaker
What we are doing with this is we are looking for the rawest moments in comic book history Now if you don't know what that means it's it's one of those things That's hard to describe because it's a feeling and it's that feeling it's that oh shit like it It just got real. It just popped off. Shit is like someone just did something so badass that I need to stand up, take a walk, maybe do a push-up or two. Have you ever read a comic that made you do a push-up? I have. That has happened to me. I-R-L-F-R for real. ah Which is why for our inaugural entry, the top of the list, this is the one to beat. I'm not saying it's it's gonna be the top forever.
00:01:25
Speaker
This is just the one that I think I talk about the most in my life and that you and I have talked about a lot, Matt. And that is when Jim Gordon throws flash the baseball bat in Batman number 404, the first part of Batman year one. That's when all the crooked cops come and and beat up Jim Gordon with bats. And then they just like leave the bat to taunt him.
00:01:50
Speaker
And then Gordon goes and fucking runs Flass off the road into a tree and gets out. I'm not even looking at this right now, buddy.
Jim Gordon's Defining Moment
00:02:00
Speaker
You just got it, committed to memory memory. You know, he talks about he just how Flass is big, has green beret training, and then says, it's been 15 years since I had to take down a green beret, which that's new information about Jim Gordon in that scene. That is new information.
00:02:20
Speaker
And then he goes, still, he deserves a handicap and gives him the bat and then beats the living shit out of him. It is, it is a shame that, that Frank Miller disappeared in 1993 cause that shit fucking owns. It's always a raw moment when somebody
00:02:48
Speaker
makes it a quote unquote fair fight. Yes. That oh shit and always strikes me as raw.
Superman's Rawest Moments
00:02:55
Speaker
Like, I'm not exactly a John Wayne fan. My dad was a John Wayne fan. I got my problems with John Wayne. But the racism. the That's the biggest one. Yeah. Other ah prejudices as well. Yes. But the thing where he tells the other guys to fill their hands.
00:03:16
Speaker
brother. Yeah, I mean, that that does rule. That's good shit. Yeah. But that's the kind of moment and like, look, is it is it the kind of lowbrow action movie moment? Yeah, folks, that's the comics we like. Sorry. The first raw thing to happen in comics is probably like Superman beating that that abusive husband up. Well, honestly, the probably the first raw thing in comics to happen is Superman picking up that car. Yeah. And making that guy flip out i'd flip his
Kitty Pryde's Revenge
00:03:52
Speaker
fucking shit. That would make the list. Yeah, that's that's demonstrable. there was no training or traininging of me and my bra lived like a man but i'm animal All right, next up is a submission from Charles Arthur.
00:04:08
Speaker
who says, I am tempted to conclude all of Marauder's number 16 in this suggestion, but I'm wanting to include a specific moment, and that has to be the moment where Lockheed bites out Sebastian Shaw's friggin' eye and doesn't even bother to eat it. Yeah, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. That's pretty fucking good, actually. Pretty good. Marauder's is good. Marauder's is good.
00:04:32
Speaker
and kitty First of all, Kitty Pryde getting different knuckle tattoos on her ah resurrection bodies every time she comes back is a good bit. ah ah Getting Kill Shaw because Sebastian Shaw killed her is a good bit. Punching him through the fucking door because she's Kitty Pryde is a good bit. There's like 18 good things in this issue.
00:04:57
Speaker
Uh, this specific issue was written by Jerry Duggan with art by Stefano Casselli, by the way. Yeah. And, and yes, this is the get revenge on Sebastian Shaw issue. And it, it, it's the whole thing does rule. I, you're not wrong about that, uh, Charles, the whole issue could be considered pretty fucking raw.
00:05:26
Speaker
Sebastian Shaw jumping out of a second story window, fucking face planning, and then Kitty walking through his front door and dragging him back in as Glob Herman watches. It's really good. Well, Glob's like guarding the door, right? Yeah, bud. Yeah. Just like, like, look, revenge is not... In real life, revenge does not offer catharsis.
00:05:56
Speaker
Does it, though.
00:06:01
Speaker
But in a comic, when fucking Lockheed comes in, bites out Sebastian Shaw's eye, and then spits it into the fireplace, that's pretty good.
Thanos and Ben Grimm's Stand
00:06:15
Speaker
Yeah. Because Sebastian Shaw also like killed Lockheed. Yeah.
00:06:24
Speaker
And yeah, Lucky tears out his fucking eye. And it's like the eye that is already swollen from Kitty Pry beating the shit out of him. Yeah. So it's, it's rough. Oh, and then they poison him. But they don't kill him. No. They bring him back to the Quiet Council.
00:06:47
Speaker
Yeah, this shit's pretty good. i I think this might be a strong number two. it's It's pretty fucking good, yeah. Yeah, I think this one goes above Phantom Lady throwing a fencing sword through a man, but below Gordon giving Flazz the baseball bat, because it is, again, this this kind of whole issue is... like I wish you could see the smile on my face talking about it. It's cathartic. It's It's an issue of catharsis.
00:07:18
Speaker
After we've seen Kitty, Kitty go through it, right? Marauder's good. Marauder's is good. Marauder's good. I think it was the best of the, the Krakoa era secondary X-Men books. Yeah. It was, it was a ah solid one. Like Kitty fried as a pirate. Good, good stuff. Good stuff. Chris hate pride. Hate pride. Yes.
00:07:48
Speaker
Uh, Chris, we're going to end on a strong one. I think this is the last one we can take in this episode. And boy, this is, this one is, well, it'll be interesting to think about how raw it is. It is certainly a great moment. This is sent to us by Harry J.
00:08:10
Speaker
And this moment was from Secret Wars Siege, issue four. Boy! By Kieran Gillan, Felipe Andrade, James Stokoe, and Jorge Coelho, and it is when Dr. Doom, or no, not Dr. Doom, is when Thanos, missed Ben Grimm. What time is it, Ben Grimm? What time is it? Matt, my hands went to the arms of my chair. I'm standing up right now.
00:08:41
Speaker
Boy, you want to talk about some shit that that just fucking owns Secret Wars 2015?
00:08:54
Speaker
Yeah. Whoo. Whoo. I do think, I mean, look, but the the line that we remember is what time is it, right? Yeah. But I think the context of the whole thing is what really makes
Scourge's Redemption
00:09:13
Speaker
it. Yeah, because what's the how do you take Ben Grimm out of the equation?
00:09:20
Speaker
like but that's That's the good shit about this, is how do you take Ben Grimm out of the equation? You make him responsible for protecting everyone.
00:09:33
Speaker
Yeah, you like he's the wall. Give him too much responsibility. There's an army of Ultron's and zombies that he's got to hold back. Or else it all goes down. He's got to protect everybody. He's a big man made of rocks. That's got to protect everybody. Right? That's how you take him out of the equation. Like that's like, Jonathan Hickman is Dr. Doom smart.
00:10:02
Speaker
right And we know that because he came up with the plan. He came up with the plan that made sense, ah which is that that he like he figures out how to take out the Fantastic Four. You you take Reed, you get rid of Reed, but you make Johnny and Ben and Sue, have to like you keep them busy with other things.
00:10:32
Speaker
you make them think they're doing good. And with Ben, I mean, you you said it, it's responsibility, right? Because Ben is the prototype Marvel character. He's the first Spider-Man. He's the one who who gets it worse, but has more responsibility.
00:10:53
Speaker
And so that part of it, well brilliant genius.
00:11:01
Speaker
Thanos talkin' him in to fuckin' goin' after Dr. Doom. Thanos givin' him, first of all, Thanos givin' him the fuckin' speech. The hype up speech, the Captain America speech.
00:11:20
Speaker
And then, and saying, Doom has asked you to live on your knees every day of your life. He's beating you as you lie there. What do you do? You stand up. You stand up. So, okay. We've, we've said repeatedly that what gets us hype is what time is it, right? Uh-huh. But kind of the raw moment is when Ben stands up. Yeah.
00:11:51
Speaker
like yeah because you know what time it is yeah because that's the thing he doesn't even need to say it like he doesn't say that's one of the best things and that happens in in movies it but it happens in comics a lot of comics are serialized fiction that it repeats over and over right like you know you you you get to see the catchphrases, the stuff. It happens in comics a lot, it happens in wrestling a lot, because those are the things where you kind of see the same stuff over and over and see it all play out in different ways. When you don't even have to say it, when you don't even have to say the catchphrase, when you don't have to say what time it is, because we all know what time is about to be, and like, you let the audience complete that,
00:12:47
Speaker
Like all the build to it. Where it's been as like, what am I supposed to do? Right? Yeah. And, and like Thanos is trying to like get him to act. And if any punch, like he punches Thanos. And that's when Thanos is like, look, Doom has asked you to live on your knees.
Baldur the Brave's Conflict
00:13:10
Speaker
What do you do? You stand up.
00:13:13
Speaker
What time is it Ben Graham? What time is it? Then there's a page of like the beep lot. Abigail brand. but she's happening Then there's that two page spread of Ben standing up. Yeah. Fucking tied you sized mountain range sized.
00:13:31
Speaker
ben on benjamin j gra Fucking unbelievable. Yeah, man. Here's what I love about this is the Kieran Gillen has read Marvel two and one annual number seven. Mm-hmm.
00:13:42
Speaker
Because he knows that Ben Grimm don't stay down. Ben Grimm stands up. Oh, it does say what time it is in like the narration, but it doesn't need to say it. Doesn't need to say it. You know what fucking time it is. Yeah. Oh, I love that shit. Oh, boy. I mean, this is the one.
00:14:10
Speaker
This might be the the most recent one that hit me like that. You know? Yeah. I don't know if there's been a comic sense. Maybe when Batman went into his secret Batcave to get his Batman who lives inside Batman. that see what to the kids of the cave the The question is, is this number one or number two?
00:14:33
Speaker
I don't know, man. Like I got, I got so excited when you just said what issue it was. Cause I knew what it was going to be. Like we, and we, you know, we've talked about this. This is one that like, if you and I haven't talked about it on the show, we have talked about it in our lives of a lot. And man, nope. And i'll I'll say this very few characters do this kind of moment like Ben Grimm. He's the perfect guy for it.
00:15:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, man. I do love it when he gives him that bat. I love it. But man, what time is it? that You gotta stand up. You know what time it is? Yeah. Folks, do I need to tell you what time it is? You might not know. Cause I don't know you read if you read all these comics, but do you need to know what time it is? And I should I tell people what time it is? You can tell them. Folks, it's fucking clobbering time.
00:15:34
Speaker
I mean, the fact that it is a direct callback, almost without question, a direct callback to Marvel Two and One Annual Number Seven, makes me inclined to make it our do number one. I'll say it is about Marvel Two and One ah Annual Number Seven. Real ones no. Real ones no. Real ones no. Yeah, dog.
00:15:58
Speaker
i've I've said this about ah the X-Men issue, uh, with, with Captain America and Black Widow and Wolverine and World War II. The like, if you don't like that, sorry, you don't like Marvel Comics. I kind of feel that way, but Marvel two and one and you'll number seven too. Yeah. The like, sorry, if you don't, if you love Marvel Comics, you love that issue. I'll say that, I'll say it that way. it I don't know how you can love Marvel Comics and not like Ben Grimm.
00:16:32
Speaker
And to me, for me, that is like the defining Ben Grimm moment. that's Which also true for me, and we also both know that's a little bit weird. Yeah. It's not this man, this monster, it's Marvel 2 when I know number seven, sorry. Absolutely, yes. I mean, this man, this monster is also great, but yeah. I would say objectively, it's a better comic than Marvel 2 when I know number seven, even. Yeah.
00:17:00
Speaker
I mean, our list says so as well, but yeah nonetheless. honest like God, this is so fucking good, too. I'm gonna advocate for number one. Here's here is my only argument against that. And I don't think, I don't mean this is a slight, and I don't think there are many people who would disagree with me. Felipe Andrade is not Dave Meskelly. Yeah, that's true.
00:17:29
Speaker
the The, like Thanos being kind of like weirdly in shadow when he says, what time is it is maybe not quite as good as you want it to be. Yeah. and that like Imagine Carlos Pacheco drawing this, you know, yeah that would have been, yeah. Or, or it's like an Esad Ribic. I mean, like this book is obviously going for a thing where it's trying to look kind of,
00:17:57
Speaker
weird and distorted. That's why Jorge Coelho, his art is like it is in here. Or Felipe Entrade, sorry. But yeah, I can see that. i which That might be enough to make it not number one. I don't think this book is bad and I don't think it's poorly drawn um by any means. i think and I think that page, like that whole page spread of Uh, you know, giant size, giant size Ben Grimm number one, uh, is beautiful. Yeah. But I, that is what I would, that is what I would say about that. Yeah, that's fair. he The pacing and the storytelling and the art on Batman 404 is darn near perfect. As far as Mazzakilli's part goes, but man, he does, he does ask him what,
00:18:52
Speaker
Thanos knowing about clobbering time is also very good. Thanos knowing about clobbering time is also very good. All right. I think we're, I think I was, I was up for making this number one, but I think you have a strong point about maybe why it ought to be number two.
Poison Ivy's Diet: Cannibalism?
00:19:16
Speaker
i i'm i I'm okay with it being number two. it's so It's so close that I would be fine going either way at this point, honestly. there was no training or dreaming of me and my bra lived like a man but i'm animal ah While we're at it though, we can't answer Sosa's question to give this to Sosa. Sosa says poison ivy is a vegetarian connected to the green and counts as a plant plant person in some versions of the character. Doesn't that make her a cannibal? Yeah, poison ivy should only eat meat.
00:19:46
Speaker
Right, yes, yes. If she's made of plants and eats plants, then I guess, yes, she is a cannibal. I mean, I think the actual proper answer now is in current continuity, I believe Poison Ivy photosynthesizes. Okay. And doesn't actually eat, but like, yeah, Poison Ivy should only eat and eat. Right? That does make a degree of sense, yes. Yeah.
00:20:17
Speaker
And if Kurt Connors did the thing, ate the boy while he was the lizard, does that make him not one? Not a cannibal. That's a tough one. That's a tough one to answer. I mean, Billy did come back like as a lizard boy at one point. Yeah. I think that's part of what makes it so hard. Makes it so difficult to say. Okay. So, so we hope we've clarified things for you a bit and thank you for sending that in.
00:20:47
Speaker
Here is our next submission. It's from Patrick Gertner. And Patrick says, this is maybe a little obvious, but if we're talking about raw moments in comics, I have to go with Scourge standing alone. Oh,
00:21:05
Speaker
ah oh gotta clear it gotta clear it out, baby. Gotta clear it out, ranking at the new number one.
00:21:13
Speaker
is- is- is
Batman vs Prometheus
00:21:30
Speaker
that and i think we talked about this we talked about this with the some friends of ours but like we knew when i put batman year're one at the top of the every story ever list And when we put that there, and we put identity cards at the bottom, we didn't think those would get beaten. But there were some that we knew, like, the one that we always talk about is is Gordon with the baseball bat. Yeah. But like, we knew there were ones that beat it. And boy, this, this one, I don't know if anything can dethrone it. There's one other thing that I think could do it. And it's also from the Simonson Thor. Okay.
00:22:09
Speaker
This is specifically just, it wasn't included in the submission, but it's from Thor number 362. Yeah, bud. And there are several elements that I think makes this moment especially raw. This sort of poetic nature of the narration over it that ends with he stood alone at Gallibrew and that was enough.
00:22:39
Speaker
The fact that he is taking on wave after wave of enemies and he's talking about the next wave is coming, I'm going to take, don't bring them on. And he's like shooting and shooting and shooting until- Because he also has two M16s, by the way, in this Thor comic, where he is is standing at the bridge to hell. You know, he's Scourge, the executioner, but he but part of the whole story is that like,
00:23:07
Speaker
Yeah, he's gotten modern weapons. ah So he's he's standing here with these M16s. He's shooting and shooting and shooting. He runs out of bullets. And then
Sabretooth's Punishment on Krakoa
00:23:16
Speaker
but the last image of us we see of him fighting is he's run out of bullets. So he's taking his one of his M16 and he's just swinging it as a melee weapon at this horde of you know enemies bearing down on him. Yeah, because he's scourged and scourge fights with an axe.
00:23:37
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, bud. Yeah, bud. Here's what gets it though. Here's what makes this like the King shit raw moment is the emotion. Yeah. Because Scourge, the executioner is a bad guy, but he's a bad guy because he's an idiot. And he always gets you know tricked into being a bad guy because he's in love with Amora the Enchantress. And She doesn't live him back, but he'll do anything for her, and so she, like, you know, uses him as muscle in her schemes. Tale as old as time. Scourge, when he- when they all go down to Hell to rescue the- the souls that have been consigned to to Hella's realm, uh, Scourge, first of all, fucking destroys Hella's ship made out of Dead Men's fingernails, uh, which is- is...
00:24:33
Speaker
like delays Ragnarok because it's almost done and hell is getting ready to fucking end the world and he just throws fucking axe at it and is like well that's fucking that actually Thor might do that but I'm pretty sure scourge does that but they're getting ready to leave with these soul these mortal souls that they rescued from hell and Thor is like well somebody's gotta stand here and and guard the bridge or else that all those demons are going to gonna you know, overtake us and and drag those souls back to hell and kill us all. So somebody's got to stay back. And it's a suicide mission. And I'm Thor and I'm the hero. So all of you go do it. You know, all of you to get out of here, I'm holding the bridge. But Thor is weakened from a fight with Hela that leaves him scarred. That's why he grows the beard and looks like Walt Simonson. Like Thor is is kind of drained and knocked out. So Scourge, a villain,
00:25:30
Speaker
up to this point. fucking ah This is all from memory, by the way. Because I've read this comic a million times and it's the dopest shit that's ever happened. ah Scourge knocks Thor out with one punch and he says, hey, Thor is too important to die down here. So you know just raise a glass to Scourge when you get home. And then he grabs two M16s and he stands there and he's like, I know you all think I'm a fucking idiot.
00:25:59
Speaker
And I know that all of you know how easily I've been manipulated because I'm in love with Amora, but let me do something right for once in my goddamn life. And that's like the character motivation that always gets me. the the I know I've never done anything good, but let me do this one thing.
Spider-Man's Legendary Feat
00:26:20
Speaker
That's the shit that gets me every time. And...
00:26:26
Speaker
like that scene of him being swarmed by demons and bringing that fucking like using the gun as a club to beat him back and the narration and I'll tell you the narration Matt you're looking at the page right I was I'd I have clicked away but i I can get back to it all right again from memory they sing no songs in hell for that land is grim and cheerless Like, that is what it says. They sing no songs in Hell. They don't talk about heroes in Hell. Yeah. Cause, you know, it's not what they do. But there's one person in Hell that even Hell abounds her head to when she passes by. One soul that died that even she is like, shows the respect to.
00:27:14
Speaker
And that's Scourge. And when any new soul arrives and asks why, they say he stood alone at Gallibrew. And that was enough. That shit owns! That's the best comics have ever been. Into the Valley of Death, like...
00:27:32
Speaker
In the Valley of Death, maybe we should rank higher on the Every Story, Every List because of how fucking tight that shit is. we We talked about raw moments being hero moments more than villain moments, typically. The exception to that is villains redeeming themselves. Yeah, but an earned villain face turn? Yeah.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah. Woo!
00:28:05
Speaker
That shit's good. And this is the best example. Yeah. No, it's the best one that's ever happened. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man, I'm fucking hyped now. I have not gone and looked at it. Again, all from memory. I burned that scene into my brain. Yeah. ah This is it. it' the they't They don't talk about heroes.
00:28:33
Speaker
It's, this is it. Patrick, you did it. You, you, you submitted our new number one. Uh, so thank you for, for doing that. Now, Chris, you said one of the only other moments that could be number one on the list are, is from the Simon and Thor run. Our next moment is from Lucas Brown. Okay.
00:29:03
Speaker
And it is from Thor number 344. Whatever happened to Baldur the Brave? Uh-huh. Yeah. You know, when Baldur picks up a sword. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah, bud. I'm familiar with that moment.
00:29:24
Speaker
that That... That's good. That's the other thing that I like will always 100% of the time pop for. We've talked about it recently. I forget what it was that we where we talked about it. But that the thing of of someone like begging, and you think they're begging for their life, but they're actually begging, don't make me destroy you. Don't make me become John Wick. It's the old call of ambulance, but not for me. Yeah.
00:29:58
Speaker
Because what happens in this? No, we have found out previously. ah Volstagg's been sitting on that guy for like, for like six months at this point. ah The guy who shows up to kill Baldur, the kid who shows up to kill Baldur because Baldur killed his father, ah because Baldur, you know, the greatest warrior in all of Asgard, killed a lot of motherfuckers. But now he doesn't do that anymore. And the reason he doesn't do it is because you know, you know, Baldur, if you know one thing about Baldur, you know that he died.
00:30:28
Speaker
And that did happen in Marvel Comics, ah but Balder did eventually come back like after he was ah killed by Loki. He did the thing with the mistletoe. ah Play God of War 2018, if you're curious, to find out about this. So the way Balder came back is that when he went to Hell, the greatest warrior in the history of Asgard had to face all the all the men he'd killed in battle, the greatest warrior in all of Asgard. And ah we find out that when when Balder left Hell, he didn't walk. He swam through an ocean of blood, because he had to kill them all again. That's rad. First and foremost, that is rad. We can agree on
Magneto vs Red Skull
00:31:20
Speaker
that. huh That shit owns.
00:31:24
Speaker
ah Secondly, that's why he doesn't fight anymore. That's why Baldur at the start of the Simonson Thor run is, oh you know, kind of chubby pacifist who doesn't yeah just hangs out, eats, drinks, hangs with his friends. oh That's why. because Because he had to kill everybody twice. He was faced with the enormity of all that he had done in a life of war.
00:31:49
Speaker
and was like, I have to stop. I am too deadly. I'm too much of a killing machine. He's the fucking old gunslinger. He retired, right? Right. So he has to go deliver a message to Loki. ah about I believe it's about Surtur and the Sword of Twilight and Ragnarok being on the thing. And Loki, because he's an asshole,
00:32:16
Speaker
is like, yeah, I don't really want to hear your message. I don't really care what it was. Um, but I got a bunch of demons here for you to, you know, they're going to kill you before you can deliver this message. Maybe I'll listen to you after you, like, like, if you survive this, but I mean, they're going to kill you in your pacifist. You don't fight. So. ah e And.
00:32:37
Speaker
bolt There's this scene, it's it's it's on the cover even, it's the cover's great. It's this Simonson, again, I'm not looking at those. It's this great Simonson cover of Balder down in the lower right-hand corner and just this you know mountain of demons attacking him, like like a tidal wave of demons getting ready to crash down on him.
00:32:56
Speaker
And you get the bit where Baldur is like, hey, please don't do this. I have to give this message to Loki. Odin himself has charged me with this. The fate of the Nine Realms. I have to give this message to him. Please don't attack me. I promise I'll let you all live. That shit?
00:33:21
Speaker
Mwah, mwah, mwah. It's delicious. Oh, it's creme brulee.
00:33:31
Speaker
the We talked about, I talked a little bit about the staging and the Mr. Miracle moment. hu To me, this is the counterpoint to that. Because I feel like this is a moment that is so sold by the staging, but the way it is presented on panel.
00:33:51
Speaker
I think that's part of something we don't talk about when we talk about the Walt Simonson run on Thor is just how artfully all of these moments are presented. It's not even, it's not just the moments themselves. It's that Simonson stages them and presents them on page, on panel in the way to like maximize the emotion you feel is as a reader. Cause to me,
00:34:21
Speaker
The big moment isn't even so much when Balder picks up the sword. Because he picks up the sword, there's a page in between. And then on the next page, like we go to like the B-plot for a second. And then on the next page, we see there's just a close-up of Balder's hand holding the sword, and then the horde of demons behind it, where Balder is saying, like listen, just listen to me. I'm begging you.
00:34:50
Speaker
If you don't just let me pass, a terrible thing is going to happen. And the demons are like, no, fuck you. And they stab him with spears. And so there's a close up of just a narrow panel of Baldur's eyes. They're narrowed. And he's saying, no.
00:35:17
Speaker
And all the demons are saying, kill him, kill him for Malekith. And Baldur goes, demons, I forswore the sword forever, but billions of innoc innocents will perish if my mission fails. And so he's like jumping over the horde at that point. Then it's just hands and slashes And Baldur saying, fiends, devils, you've destroyed me and everything I hold dear, everything. Then we see Baldur's face and he's saying, now die, die, die. And it's just like closer and closer on Baldur's face as he's swinging his sword around. Then the last panel is Baldur at the door, Malekith and Loki inside and a pile of dead bodies behind him.
00:36:10
Speaker
Yeah, man. Yeah. That is staged so fucking perfectly. Yeah, well, Walt Simonson is, like, arguably the greatest craftsperson in comics history. Like, yeah like pretty unassailable. It's like, it's him and Stan Sakai. Those are the two. Like legitimately, it's no one is better at it than they are.
00:36:37
Speaker
It's just like, Walt Simonson will occasionally do a bad comic. Like, it's a rarity. It's almost, like, kind of delightful to see it when it happens. But, I mean, when when he's good, which is most of the time, ain't nobody better. For real. For real. Yeah, that's... That's... Mmm, that's so good!
00:37:00
Speaker
Okay, so here's the question, Chris. Is this the moment you were thinking of? Yes. Baldur takes up the sword, the exact moment I was thinking of. Like it, because there's like, okay, there is one more, but it I wouldn't put it above those two. But I would make like, I would maybe say it could crack the top three, but just just the one more it's in the run. Well, personally, I don't think this moment is better than Scourge standing alone at Gallibrew.
00:37:26
Speaker
No, it's I don't think it is, but it's like, i is it better than Gordon giving Flass the baseball bat? Because it is, in a lot of ways, very similar in tone. Like, it's that kind of, you know, if you're reading that story, and you've been reading that Thor run since the beginning, you know that Boulder used to be a badass, right? Like, you've already gotten the uh, swam out through an ocean of blood, uh, scene. That's what I thought. That's the moment I thought you were thinking of. No, that is, that's good. But like, that's also like something that Volstagg tells a guy about, you know? Yeah, yeah. You don't know. You know that that's established, but you don't necessarily know, hey, this is
00:38:21
Speaker
like Like, you don't know the extent of what Baldur can do yet because you haven't seen it. And so there's still that that feeling when you read it the first time of like, oh, is Baldur gonna die? Like, are is is is he gonna... You get the turn of Baldur saying, you know, like, I'll i'll let you all live.
00:38:50
Speaker
you get the turn of him revealing it's not him that he's begging for. It's his pacifism. It's him not, it's Lord forgive me, I've got to go back to the old me. He doesn't want to dig up the box of guns and gold coins in the basement, because that road is one he cannot come back from twice. And that's just so fucking good. That's so fucking good. In the same way that you don't know that Jim Gordon is a badass until that scene.
00:39:19
Speaker
Like you're just like, all right, Commissioner Gordon, not like Commissioner Gordon has punched his hand through someone's chest and ripped out their heart before. I know that I i know for for sure. Scourge standing alone at Gallibrew goes above this. i'm I'm willing to say this might be number three, but I'll leave it up to you. I can put it at number three. I can happily put it number three.
00:39:46
Speaker
Let's put it at number three. there was no traininging or dreaming of me and my bra lived like a man but i'm animal All right, our next submission is from ah Tim Stevens. And this is another JLA moment, Chris. This is from JLA number 38. And it is Batman versus Prometheus round two. Yeah, boy.
00:40:15
Speaker
Oh shit, yes. ah Backman hacks Prometheus's tech, reducing his physical control of his body to that of Stephen Hawking. Then he finishes him off with a helmet-cracking haymaker. Which sounds like a mean joke, but I promise it isn't. It makes sense. Stuff like that.
00:40:36
Speaker
makes the fact that Mark Miller and Grant Morrison used to write together and work together makes sense. Because just just hearing it described, you could think that that was a Mark Miller idea. Yeah. Like, it's it it is very much like it's kind of like, at its heart,
00:41:00
Speaker
It is kind of edgy 90s comics, and sounds a lot meanier meaner to to ah the late Professor Steven Hawking, as like, a lot meaner than I think it actually is in practice. If I have a hard time imagining Morrison writing this exact joke today, or like this exact gag, you know? And they probably would. i Yeah, I they probably would be really surprised if they did.
00:41:29
Speaker
but like But also, like it's fucking good, dude. Because if you don't know how this works, when Prometheus shows up in in JLA 16 and 17, he fights Batman. And because it's 1998, he has a CD-ROM drive in his head, and he's able to download the ah the muscular systems what imprint his muscular systems with the fight the abilities and like patterns of ah the 10 greatest fighters in the world. you' You've seen Dead or Alive the movie, right? With the magic sunglasses? If you haven't, you should. You shouldn't.
00:42:16
Speaker
Eric Roberts is basically Prometheus in that movie. Yes, very much so. Yeah. oh but yeah ah And he's like, yeah, I have the 10 greatest fighters in the world on this CD-ROM, which contains over 785 megabytes of data.
00:42:33
Speaker
ah And in Batman, you're on that list. And so he beats Batman with his own moves and just like beats the shit out of him. And the next time you see Batman, It's one of my favorite Morrison Batman moments, which is saying something, but Batman says, that was a humbling experience. Great. Fucking love it. Uh, this is their rematch. And this is when Batman's like,
00:42:59
Speaker
Yeah, you like after we beat you the first time, I took your helmet apart. I figured out how it works. I knew if you came back, you'd be too much of an egotist to have a different one. You got it from my trophy room. I've had it all along. You didn't just download my moves into your into your head. You downloaded the fighting skills of Stephen Hawking.
00:43:27
Speaker
which I think, I don't know, am I wrong? Is this just like a thing that I like from when I was 16? And so I'm giving it a lot of leeway. Well, I think, I think in hindsight, it's not as cool and edgy as it was. In what year would this have been in 1999? Yeah, this is 90. I believe 99 or maybe early 2000. Yes, this is early 99. Yeah.
00:43:57
Speaker
Yeah. You know, times have changed pretty drastically. And we've always said, like, the whole, well, it was different back then, argument never holds water, right? Right. However, the difference is Stephen Hawking was alive and well, and perfectly, you know,
00:44:24
Speaker
healthy with his condition at this time. You know, and so like, we're thinking about it from the mindset of like, he got sicker and eventually passed away. This was well before that. Like, yeah there wasn't any sense that like, Stephen Hawking was in for like, this was 19 years before he died in 2018.
00:44:56
Speaker
So while he was in a wheelchair at the time, I don't think there was... I don't necessarily think of it as mean-spirited as it might read now. I don't think it's in intentionally... I don't think it's hateful, but I think at the end of the day, and I say this, this is one of my favorite things Batman has ever done.
00:45:26
Speaker
Yeah. but But I think like it is a joke at the expense of Stephen Hawking could not beat up Batman. Right. Which of course not, you know, it's like, not none of us could. But you know, that's not the point. oh I do love Batman laying the trap and not only it's like, this is what I'll say for this moment. I love the pettiness.
00:45:57
Speaker
Yeah. Cause, cause Batman wants to win. Yeah. Batman could have had it give him nothing and beaten him up. Like Batman could have had him get like just not had it not work and been like, yeah, I made it so your helmet doesn't work and now we'll fight and I'll beat you up. Cause you're just some guy and I'm fucking Batman. No, Batman but specifically was like,
00:46:25
Speaker
I am going to ruin this man. I am going to psychologically destroy this man by giving, like, I am going to make his own thing betray him, and then I am going to punch him as hard as I can. And I love that about Batman, because I too am petty, and I too will plot my revenge. The best part of this, by the way, isn't just the moment where it happens and Batman throwing that punch.
00:46:54
Speaker
It is ah when Honduras comes in in the next panel and says, did I just see you cheating? And Batman says, you just saw me winning. Yeah. Yeah. I love that shit. The art of Batman punching Prometheus, like punching his helmet to pieces is some of the best art Howard Porter ever did on the book. yeah It is a full double page spread. Yeah. Of Batman just like wrecking.
00:47:26
Speaker
Prometheus To not even not even not even as not even his dominant hand man, I know he's end you don't have to I know don't Don't start with me. The the thing is I could understand somebody reading this as ableist And i I wouldn't necessarily call that a reading that's wrong I yeah I think it like I think it is like it it might not have been intentionally hurtful. It isn't plus that's just that's just the way it is. Yeah, it's that that said if Mark Miller had written this, I would be like fuck this. Yeah, but because it's Grant and because I know grant even when they're trying to do edgy stuff,
00:48:19
Speaker
tends to have good intentions. Yeah. I mean, Mark Miller writing this, it would absolutely have slurs in it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, right? Like, yeah. It's a raw moment that I don't know that I can totally sanction, if that makes sense.
00:48:41
Speaker
It's unsanctioned, which makes even more raw. That's that's right. that i like i As problematic as it is, I do still love it. And I'm not going to actually, I don't love it. You can love a thing and acknowledge its flaws. Oh, this is a good one. The next one ah from Ryan Clark. This moment is from House of X number six.
00:49:11
Speaker
by Jonathan Hickman and Lanille Francis Yu. This is after they put Sabretooth on trial, the X-Men. He gets put in a hole on Krakowa. Yeah, they just put him in a fucking hole. Yes. For crimes against mutanity,
00:49:33
Speaker
Sabretooth gets put in a hole. That's great. Yeah. They do just put him in a fucking hole. Yes, he is grabbed by vines and placed in a hole in the middle of Krakoa.
00:49:57
Speaker
i I like that this whole thing is like like putting people in the hole becomes a little more sinister, but I do like the fact that it's like Look, we're gonna let everybody, like, we're gonna let everybody hang out on Kokoa. Like, Apocalypse, you can hang out, like, Mr. Sinister, your name's literally Mr. Sinister, you can hang out, but fucking Sabretooth! Like, Sabretooth's not gonna chill. You know? Absolutely not, yeah. Like, they even got Apocalypse to chill.
00:50:39
Speaker
Yeah. But same with his whole deal is that he doesn't chill. No chill. Absolutely no chill. Yeah. And so like bringing him in and being like, motherfucker, are you going to chill? And then, and then him being like, no. Well, also it's like, okay, you killed another, you killed a mutant. That is not something we can allow to be.
00:51:08
Speaker
acceptable in this new mutant society.
00:51:14
Speaker
So we got to do what what you're going to be our example and and Sabertooth even says, are you going to make an example out of me? And essentially, Professor Xavier is like, yes. Well, they have this debate because apocalypse is like, I don't see why it's a problem to kill somebody who comes back to life.
00:51:38
Speaker
because we can bring all the mutants back to life, so what's the problem? And then Jean Grey goes, well, then the the actual crime should be killing people who don't come back to life, humans, um and Sabretooth kills people a lot. And they're like, well, that is true. And and essentially, Professor X says, we have to show that no one is above mutant law. And then Sabretooth is like, then fuck all y'all.
00:52:07
Speaker
i i I don't have any chill and I will never have any chill. You're on my list and all your kids and their kids are on my list and I'm gonna make them extinct. I got a list and it's Sabretooth's list. And I'm gonna start.
00:52:33
Speaker
Well, he does say that. He does, like, he he does say that. He he a literally says, I'm making a loose. Yeah. Oh. But then like after, but basically after he cuts that promo, ah Xavier's like, okay, time to do it. And Krakowa generates a bunch of vines that then drag Sabretooth just straight down into a hole. Yeah.
00:53:03
Speaker
and hes And they're like, yeah, you're just gonna be in that hole forever. Yeah. maybe Maybe we'll come get you out if we need you. Hey, this is a real question because I have not read every X-Men book since this. has I mean, I'm sure Sabertooth has come back. Yes. But wouldn't it be great if he didn't? it Oh, it would be fantastic if he didn't. If it was just like, yeah, Sabertooth got put in the hole. He's done.
00:53:32
Speaker
Oh, Victor Creed, he lives in a hole. Yeah, Sabretooth is docking now.
00:53:41
Speaker
Victor Creed got put a damn hole. Let's see, when did he come back? I'm crossing my, I know he's not still in that hole, but I'm crossing my fingers. Oh, I guess he got like a solo series where he came out of the hole.
00:54:03
Speaker
So that's, that's what, that's what it was. He got a saber. Fun. There's something, there's something very fun and there's something kind of inherently raw about putting somebody in fucking hole. Yeah, man. Just lost moments in comics. Just you wait until we talk about somebody getting put in a hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. This, this,
00:54:31
Speaker
2022 mini-series about Sabretooth starts with him in the hole. It is about him coming out of the hole. And he's doing just fine.
00:54:44
Speaker
ah Yeah, I'd say Sabretooth getting put in the hole is pretty raw. well When was House of X? Was it post-pandemic, right? No. Or mid-pandemic? It was pre-pandemic. Was it? Oh yeah, it was like 2018.
00:55:02
Speaker
No, it It's maybe 2019. 2019. It was 2019. I think House of X got oh interrupted.
00:55:13
Speaker
No, I guess so just the X-Men series got interrupted by ah COVID 2019. So he was in that hole for four years. Yeah. That's pretty good. Three years. He was there until 2022. Yeah, that's pretty good.
00:55:33
Speaker
that's ah In comics, that's a long time to be in a hole. Yeah. It's about how long the Joker was in a hole in 1969 to 1974. True.
00:55:48
Speaker
this is This is raw. i But is it rawr than the Avengers wanting to have words with Ultron? It's pretty raw when Professor X um says, I'm going to put you in a fucking hole forever. And then feel it does it.
00:56:04
Speaker
<unk> pretty good That's true. Is it better than Luffy giving Nami his hat? I don't think so. Because I don't think Arlong comes back. Yeah. Maybe he does. But I don't think he does. Yeah. Shoulder manga doesn't do a lot of looking back, you know? That's true. That's the main thing manga has over American comics.
00:56:31
Speaker
It moves forward. It does not look backward. American comics look backward all the time. Yeah. I mean, sometimes Frieza comes back and then Trunks comes from the future and cuts him in fucking half. You know? And that's about as much looking looking back as you're going to get. Yeah. Frieza only comes back to put over the new guy. Yeah. the the That shit's pretty good. Yeah.
00:57:00
Speaker
All right, so at number 15, Sabretooth gets put in a hole. Do you think, do you think Magneto came up with this one? When Professor X was like, damn, Eric, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do about like, we got mutant problems? And Magneto was like... And he was like, let me tell you what I did when I had some problems with somebody. You know what's a great thing to do to somebody who's a problem? You put them in a fucking hole.
00:57:29
Speaker
Then you make sure crossbones doesn't show up. Yeah, that's... You gotta watch out for crossbones. Charles, let's put them in a hole, and then just for funsies, go kill crossbones.
00:57:42
Speaker
Alright, Scott Hazelwood sent us this entry. i Scott says, my previous list violated the rules, sorry. So I'm picking the cream of the crop.
00:57:59
Speaker
He said in parentheses, Macho Man voice. Okay, you did a great job with that, man. Cream of the Is the always raises to the top.
00:58:14
Speaker
Whoa. Hey, what's with the cup? My favorite thing mean gene ever said. Pretty good. Pretty good mean gene stuff. Hey, what's with the cup? Secret sauce in in so much of that.
00:58:29
Speaker
Yeah, ah Scott's entry is Spider-Man 33, where Spider-Man lifts the heavy thing and says, I did it, I'm free.
00:58:40
Speaker
Fuck, that's pretty raw. I was gonna say, that's not raw, but that's wrong. and Yeah, no, that's wrong. it's it It is take your shirt off raw. It is. Yeah. Yeah, man.
00:58:59
Speaker
Cause like, cause, cause you know, like Thor couldn't do it and the whole yeah couldn't do it. But, but the Spider-Man could play. He He's free. Yeah. Um, yeah. I don't know if we have made this clear, but that is the best comic book ever published. Like again,
00:59:28
Speaker
If you don't like that, comics, prep like particularly Marvel Comics, aren't for you. By and large, by and large, you're you're not going to have a good time trying to read Marvel Comics if yeah that moment is not one that you enjoy. Yeah, man.
00:59:53
Speaker
just
00:59:57
Speaker
It's so good.
01:00:05
Speaker
it's it It's a take your shirt off moment because of everything that comes before it. If it was just Spider-Man lifts a heavy thing, that would just be like, okay, yeah, he's got radioactive blood. Listen, bud, he can do some wild shit. He's got radioactive blood. But it's it's it's about how he wouldn't have been able to do it until he thought about how he if he doesn't get out of there, Aunt May is in trouble. And that's that's what makes that good fucking comics. Yeah, man. Like, it's especially good. Like, I remember being a kid, I only had like, it was in the ah the the very best of Spider-Man paperback that I read until the binding gave out. um And so I only had 33. But like, if you go back and read 31, 32 and 33, like,
01:01:05
Speaker
32. Like, the Spider-Man has a hell of a fight. Like, he fights a bunch of dudes. And then he fights knock out. Yeah. And like, like it it is a real knockdown drag out fight. And that's it's one of those things where it's like,
01:01:27
Speaker
How does it get any bigger than this? Because that issue ends with him going, I failed just now when it counted the most. I failed. And then that's how the next issue starts. And listen, it's not just the Spider-Man Lifts Up a Heavy thing. You've seen Homecoming. You know that there's a lot to it. But it's five pages.
01:01:53
Speaker
of Spider-Man trying to lift that heavy thing. And that's five Silver Age pages. And I don't think we talk about this enough. But page one is your introductory page where it kind of recaps everything and you get the I failed panel. Page two is seven panels. Page three is six panels. Page four is four panels. Page five is a splash.
01:02:19
Speaker
It's a testament to Steve Ditko as a master storyteller. Stand to, because I do like the over-the-top operatic dialogue of this scene. you know it's it's It's standard as best, but the pacing, the straining, the humanity, and then he fucking just lifts it up.
01:02:47
Speaker
oh And then the rest of that issue too, where he's like basically limp, getting swept along by the current for another three pages and they have to fight like six more dudes. It's a good comic y'all. I mean, look, I know that we probably compared too many things to pro wrestling on this podcast, but in pro wrestling,
01:03:20
Speaker
for so For a wrestler to be an effective babyface, to be an effective good guy, there is a tried and true match style, match setup, match progression that happens in almost every match. Where the babyface does what they call fighting out from under, where the heel is just beating on them and beating on them and beating on them.
01:03:50
Speaker
And it looks like they can't possibly win because they're taking this horrible, horrible beating.
01:03:57
Speaker
And then after a good amount of the heel having all the offense in the match, the baby face starts their comeback in a moment that is called the hope spot.
01:04:16
Speaker
they get in one bit of offense against the heel and start their comeback against them.
01:04:23
Speaker
And this Spider-Man lifting that heavy thing, that's the hope spot. It's like the ultimate hope spot. And that's why it's good. There is a reason that Spider-Man and all of comics have gone back to this scene over and over and over again.
01:04:46
Speaker
It's good as hell.
01:04:50
Speaker
Yeah. Is it the rawest moment in comics? No. I don't think it's the rawest moment in comics. It is, however, good as hell. It's good as hell, and I would even call it raw. Because you know what happens after Spider-Man lifts the heavy thing? I don't know that we've ever talked about this before.
01:05:14
Speaker
Oh, we thought about where he fights those six dudes. He has to fight six dudes. Yeah, he has to fight the six dudes. And we we get him going. Yeah, these these these dudes, I'm just gonna fucking let them hit me. Because I'm tired. And I'm just gonna let them hit me for a minute. Because they're just normal dudes. And they don't fucking know I'm fucking Spider-Man. And so he lets those dudes beat them up.
01:05:44
Speaker
And then he's like, these guys are nothing, and flips out and beats this shit out of him. And the dude starts saying, what's holding him up? How does he keep fighting? And he's thinking, I'm fucking Spider-Man. Yeah. Lives is on. it's still It's so good. God damn it. My man lives is on. Honestly, he feels like Yes, part of me feels like the moment where he fights the six dudes is rawr than the moment when he lifts the thing. I mean, the whole thing, like the whole of the final chapter, because he also like flips out on Jonah in this one, too. Yeah. Like, yeah it is it is Peter at one of his... that There is a... Spider-Man stories like to hit the same notes.
01:06:40
Speaker
you know, because there's, because kind of got them right the first time. And so it's hard to do better. But every now and then, Peter Parker is just fucking done. He's done. He hits a breaking point. Good comics. Yeah. ah Every time Peter like, lets the mask slip a little bit is great.
01:07:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think that it's, it's the, it's like that moment from the, the issue, the, what is it that he says to Norman? He's like, what did you say to me?
01:07:28
Speaker
It's just like, I love it when he just like, yeah. If, cause Peter is always trying to just like hold it together, right?
01:07:39
Speaker
So whenever he just like lets that mask slip up a little bit, it's gold every time. Well, it's it's the thing that I've said about the the very interesting difference between Peter Parker and Matt Murdock, which is that Peter Parker's like first instinct is to be a bad person. like Peter has to stop himself from being a bad person.
01:08:07
Speaker
Because he always kind of wants to – he wants to not stop the guy, right? He wants to – that's not my problem. He wants to make money as a pro wrestler. Yeah. and But he has to like he has to make himself do the right thing.
01:08:26
Speaker
which is why we like him, because he has that tendency towards being kind of a shitty guy. and And so that's what makes him a good guy, because he's a like he is aware of that and he tries to ah to fight against it. Matt Murdock's first instinct is to do the right thing, but he always fucks it up. And I think that's a very interesting... like I think that's why those characters always go so well together, because you have Matt,
01:08:55
Speaker
who should, by all rights, be the morally superior one, because he's a good person, and you have Peter, who's kind of a shit-heel, but Matt always fucks it up and Peter always tries to do the right thing. Peter makes himself do the right thing.
01:09:13
Speaker
So when you get those moments where Asshole Peter comes out, like he's so fucking tired and he's so fucking done and he's been beaten up so much that he's like, fuck it, I cannot make myself be good right now. Like, I mean, it's good stuff, man. Like a good Peter Parker move out is good.
01:09:37
Speaker
Peter is always, oh, i I just found it. I found what it was that he said to Norman. He said, are you messing with me? Oh, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. In the, in the simple stuff. Yeah. Yeah. He says, are you messing with me? Like he said, he asks him multiple times. Cause he, the thing is like, what makes Peter good is the memory of uncle Ben, right?
01:10:08
Speaker
So it's like the memory of Uncle Ben is always like right in front of him. And that happens in this issue, part of why he lifts the heavy thing. It's not just to Aunt May is in danger, but also like Uncle Ben, he remembers I got to stick around to honor the memory of Uncle Ben because he made me a good person. Yeah. Cause I failed him.
01:10:35
Speaker
Yeah, he instilled in me anything that's good. And so he's always got like the memory of Uncle Ben, like right there, like right in front of him, forcing him to do the right thing, even when his instinct is not to. But then sometimes he's just like, sometimes it slips. Those moments are amazing.
01:11:04
Speaker
Yeah, they're amazing. They're spectacular. They're unlimited. They're sensational. They're web of. They're very web of. They're very web of. Yeah, this is this is good. Is it as raw as Scourge holding the bridge? No. No. But as good as hell is good comics.
01:11:31
Speaker
the The thing is, like so much of what we consider raw involves a fight, right? who And this if it's if it's just lifting the thing, there isn't a fight per se there.
01:11:50
Speaker
But when he fights those six dudes, that's a different story. i mean like it But it is a struggle. it is ah a struggle It is a struggle, yeah. It's not a fight, but it is like, you know, it is the aftermath of a fight and it is a struggle, which I do i think, I think we can lump in Peter's escape from the underground or the underwater base as one event. Cause he's also got to swim out of there too. And that's pretty raw as well.
01:12:28
Speaker
tell Tell me where you think it goes. I think, I mean, I think it goes high. Because I think you and I, like, again, you can't talk about what I was smiling, right? It's true. I think it goes above Thanos asking Ben Groom what time it is. I think it might go above Captain UK beating up the Fury for 10 minutes. I feel like that Fury moment is like textbook raw, though.
01:12:58
Speaker
It is. It is. i I think it's the new number five above Thanos asking Bingram what time it is. Okay. I'm i'm fine with that.
01:13:12
Speaker
So yeah, the new number five is Spider-Man. Spider-Man lifts the thing. Spider-Man lifts a heavy thing. Our next submission is from a comic we have definitely read.
01:13:29
Speaker
It's from Philip Monroe and it is Magneto putting red skull in a hole for being a frigging Nazi from Captain America 367. Oh, that goes pretty high. We talk about that shit all the time. Make room at the top. That's one of the rare occasions. I mean, like you said a second ago, like that being raw usually like implies a fight, right?
01:13:59
Speaker
Well, they did fight before that. Yeah, but that is one of the rare occasions where, like, not having the fight is even better.
01:14:10
Speaker
True. Cause they, cause they don't, they're not gonna fight. Mine is like, yeah, I'm not here to fucking fight you, dude. Even though he did. Oh, yeah. You're going in a hole.
01:14:28
Speaker
The best part of that entire thing is when Magneto's like, hey, you're not the same Red Skull, are you? You're not like the Red Skull from World War II, are you? And Red Skull's like, yeah. Yeah, I am. I have a different body. this is the it it Is it Hanukkah already?
01:14:59
Speaker
Yeah, Red Skull's like, I have a different body. I have a clone to Steve Rogers body, but I am him. Yeah, I'm that guy. Why? Why do you ask? but what He doesn't know. like it It has not occurred to him that maybe the Nazis did some things people might still be a little mad at. And some of those people have magnet powers. I mean, I guess there's a whole thing where Red Skull's just kind of like, look,
01:15:29
Speaker
I'm a bad guy, you're a bad guy.
01:15:33
Speaker
what We're both bad guys, what does it matter? Yeah, we're both bad guys. And Magneto will not hear it. Magneto's like, yeah, no. yeah No, we're not actually. Yeah. oh I like that because again, I feel like this is an interesting example of a thing that we've talked about, that you can't really that you have a hard time explaining to people who came to comics in ah in a different era than we did, was the idea that like, like, how many times in that run is Red Skull like, yeah, I don't, I don't believe in like Nazi stuff. I'm just evil. Like, I don't like I, I'm not like, super into being a Nazi. I just
01:16:28
Speaker
Like, hit he's he's like a stand-up comedian, man. He just hates everybody. I'm an equal opportunity offender. Yeah, but except for like, for the Red Skull, that is true. Like, he does not he is not like an ideologue. And like, the i I think it is...
01:16:49
Speaker
one of the most delightful things about that comic, that the Red Skull is like, nah, I'm not a Nazi. I just, you know, I was a Nazi when being a Nazi was like, the thing to do. And I could just be evil and try and kill everybody. But he doesn't think of it beyond that. Because to him, it's like, he's like, yeah, I'm not a Nazi, they lost. And so and I have persisted. But like Magneto was like, no, no, you can't just stop, actually.
01:17:20
Speaker
Because I feel like that was a... People who came in after the movies don't know that Hydra was just Cobra for a long time, you know? Yeah. Or or not that that they don't know, but that they like were not reading comics in an era when Hydra was not necessarily a Nazi organization ah in the way that like it kind of has to be now, because it was more of a supervillain thing. Like it did not have that reality to it. But this issue is like, this this issue, fucking Pepperidge Farm remembers man.
01:18:06
Speaker
by mean Well, but there's a great moment where Red Skull, so like Red Skull tries to do that bargaining thing where he's like, Hey, hey, hey, let's not let's not get all on your high horse. We're both bad guys. You can't come in here and like talk that shit to me. Just shake my hand and we'll put the past behind us. And Magneto goes, the devil with that Nazi scum. And he like knocks his hand away. And then Red Skull tries to get him with his his Red Skull gas.
01:18:46
Speaker
his dust are gone Yeah. And he like runs off to his elevator and does a Nazi salute at Magneto as he goes down his elevator as like one last fuck you to Magneto. And like clearly Magneto had all this planned out before this, but like, that's what Magneto's really like. I won't put this motherfucker in a hole. Yeah. Yeah. He, like, I,
01:19:13
Speaker
A thing that I do genuinely love about Grunewald writing The Red Skull, by the way, I feel like I should say, Magneto's right, by the way. yeah you can't address it um yeah you can't just You can't just say you used to be one and that's it. well then But then he proves hes he was it. I mean, he's he was lying anyway. Yeah. Because he's a fucking... Red Skull is an asshole first and everything else second.
01:19:43
Speaker
Yeah. Which is true of Nazis in general. But but yeah, the fact that Grunwald writes the Red Skull as the biggest shit talker who cannot back it up, and I love that. I love it.
01:20:07
Speaker
And I love that this, like, the dudes go and like, is it crossbones who shows up and like goes through the the building and is like, what the fuck happened? Everything's fucked up. Cause Magneto just like tore his ass off. Yeah. Man, that shit's good. And then he just, and he's like, yeah, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fight you.
01:20:35
Speaker
I'm gonna put you in the fucking ground, dude. You're gonna start slow. My favorite thing he says then is like, I could kill you, but I'd rather you just wish you were dead. Yeah. And then he just clo he's that the dark just washes over Red Skull for those last three panels. o that's fucking Those panels of Red Skull looking up Because you know Red Skull's like... The second that like Magneto will not admit that he is also a bad guy, that he is also a villain, Magneto's like, oh, this guy's like a fucking superhero, I guess. And so he fully expects him to treat him the way Steve Rogers would. And that like look of... That that frozen skull face look of shock, where he's like, hang on, you can't just leave me here to die.
01:21:35
Speaker
And then Magneto's like, bye.
01:21:41
Speaker
Die slow, motherfucker. Oh, it's good. Oh, it's good. It's the best. It's the best. Here's my question that we will have to, I'm sure, debate at another time. Like, do you think this is the rawest thing that happens in that run?
01:22:05
Speaker
o I mean, John Walker does. um flippping The fuck out is also pretty like that's that isn't that is intense. I think the rawest moment in the run is John Walker ah killing all of those watchdogs. Yeah, that shit's raw as shit. Yeah, that shit is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-S. Yeah.
01:22:35
Speaker
Like, cause not only is the like story itself raw, that is Kieran Dwyer going sicko. Yes. Yeah. He throws a pitchfork through a guy's body. Yeah. Like Kieran Dwyer does a great job with this scene, but he goes full sicko mode when John Walker kills all those, all those watchdogs.
01:23:05
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Full sicko mode.
01:23:11
Speaker
When do you want to see this remote? Because this one's pretty fucking good. It is pretty fucking good. It's fucking, oh, pretty fucking good, guys. I, you know, it's like, it it's maybe not as good as Thanos asking Ben Grimm what time it is. But it's probably better than Maybe it's better. Yeah. Yeah, I think it I think it might be above. It might be the new number two. I don't think it's the new number two. I think it like I think it might be Gordon giving flash the baseball bat. I think it's number three, three the the highest it's gonna go is number three. Okay, so you think
01:24:01
Speaker
Do you think it goes above Boulder taking up the sword below Gordon giving flasks the baseball bat? Yeah, it's actually similar to Gordon giving flasks the baseball bat. It's like Gordon beats the shit out of that man. Well, what what I mean is like it's it's it's a guy trying to do what he sees as the honorable thing instead of just killing somebody or beating their ass.
01:24:31
Speaker
Wait, do you think that's what I'm trying to do, the honorable thing? Because I thought that was going to be like high-slow. Well, yeah, that's a good point.
01:24:47
Speaker
Maybe it's not. Maybe maybe it's maybe it is different. Gordon giving flash to baseball bad is like, like I said the first time we talked about it, it's it's like, fill your hands.
01:25:00
Speaker
You know, I'm going to make this a quote unquote fair fight. Yeah. I'm going to make this a fair fight so that you know. ah ah I guess this isn't Magneto trying to do the honorable thing. It's Magneto i think it's menio being like, fuck this man. Trying to give the red skull a fate worse than death. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ah Yeah. Anyway, it's the new number three.
01:25:29
Speaker
Yeah, that's that's pretty, that's pretty pretty good stuff. That's pretty good stuff. Pretty good stuff, yeah. Man, now I'm just thinking though about John Walker killing all those, killing all those guys.