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36. The One About Sleep and the Nervous System (with Jen of Sleep Thrive Grow)
0 Playsin 8 hours
In this episode of The Mindful Educator Podcast, Victoria is joined by sleep consultant and founder of Sleep Thrive Grow, Jen, for a compassionate and insightful conversation about sleep, parenting, nervous system regulation, and the reality of raising little humans.
Jen shares how her background as a nurse, combined with her own experiences as a mother of three, led her into the world of sleep consulting. What began as a personal journey to better understand her own children grew into a deeply supportive business helping families navigate sleep in a way that feels realistic, flexible, and aligned with their unique needs.
Together, Victoria and Jen explore why sleep is never just about sleep. They discuss the role of attachment, co-regulation, temperament, parental overwhelm, and the importance of moving away from rigid, one-size-fits-all sleep methods. Jen explains her holistic approach, which considers not only the child, but the entire family dynamic, nervous system capacity, lifestyle, and emotional wellbeing.
This episode is full of reassurance for parents who feel like they’re getting it wrong, along with practical wisdom around what children actually need in order to feel safe enough to rest.
In this episode, we chat about:
- Jen’s journey from nursing to sleep consulting
- How her own children shaped her parenting and coaching approach
- Why sleep support should never be one-size-fits-all
- The connection between sleep, nervous systems, and emotional regulation
- Why babies and children borrow regulation from us
- How parental triggers and overwhelm can impact sleep
- The importance of flexibility, experimentation, and dropping rigid rules
- Why connection and safety matter more than perfection
- Sleep challenges in older children and how developmental changes can affect bedtime
- Jen’s REST framework for supporting sleep
- Why “pause” may be one of the most powerful parenting tools we have
A reminder from this conversation:
You are not supposed to know exactly what you’re doing all the time. Parenting is a constant learning curve, and sleep is not a measure of your worth as a parent. There is so much power in staying curious, softening expectations, and supporting both yourself and your child with compassion.
Connect with Jen:
You can find Jen at Sleep Thrive Grow on Instagram:
@sleep_thrive_grow
She also hosts her own podcast, Thriving Parenting, and offers a range of support options including one-on-one coaching, sleep guides, and membership support for parents.
Connect with Victoria:
🌐 www.victoria-r.com.au
📧 hello@victoria-r.com.au
📱 @the.victoria.r
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Transcript
00:00:39
Speaker
hey All right.
Introduction of Jen and her background
00:00:40
Speaker
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to the Mindful Educator podcast. I have the beautiful Jen joining me today. And Jen is a sleep consultant and we've done a course together down in Perth. So we got to spend a week together, which was amazing. And we both had um lots of fun learning lots of new things. And Jen has come on to chat to us today all things about sleep and parenting and how she can pretty much help us hopefully, function a little bit better as adults and children once we have um decent night's sleep. so welcome, Jen. Thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you for having me, Vic. i feel blessed to be here and I can't wait to chat to you today.
00:01:17
Speaker
all right. Well, let's dive straight in. So firstly, Jen, can you just introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about who you are, what you're doing, and yeah, we'll go from there. Amazing. Yeah. So my name's Jen. i am the founder of Sleep Thrive Grow. I've had my sleep consulting business now for six years but prior to my sleep consulting business I was a registered nurse um for part of the business as well juggling the two and I have just always had such um compassion to supporting others and it's just in my I feel like it's in my genes but um Yeah, it's just been a ah natural progression from nursing into this business when I had kids of my own. So I have
Impact of personal experiences on Jen's coaching
00:02:01
Speaker
three kids. I have a almost 14 year old boy, 12 year old girl and a nine year old girl. And, you know, they have brought so much of my experience and learning into my coaching and they're just amazing. beautifully different in yeah every single way um especially my third my third has really shaped a lot of my coaching she is a firecracker you know you could call her politely spirited if you like but um she definitely for me as a parent has taught me so much taught me where I needed to grow, where I needed to build capacity um and just work on my inner world to support hers. And yeah, it's just been an amazing learning journey in my business and as a parent. And I just love sharing that through my work as well.
00:02:56
Speaker
Well, that's so good. And yeah, something about those third children, they're definitely... ah Definitely a different breeder. I was like, wow, this is different. Yeah, you think you've got it and then the third comes along. 100%. Yeah. oh And I love how like you've mentioned that that nurturing is just like ah a part of you and obviously going into nursing, definitely, like that's obviously a huge thing when you are to um being a nurse. And then,
Importance of understanding baby development norms
00:03:22
Speaker
yeah, what made you decide that,
00:03:24
Speaker
Understanding sleep and like helping people with sleep was where you wanted to go or was it just one of those things that you kind of ended up happening me as a result of your own experiences like what led you on this path? Yeah I think for me i Because I had studied as a nurse, I was really good at helping people. I was able to sort of pick the gaps and be like, this this patient needs this to move forward in their treatment, um really worked on building that connection and rapport and making them feel as safe as possible within whatever situation they were in. My nursing was, you know, in medical, in surgical, in different parts, so experiencing a lot of vulnerability and a lot of anxiety
00:04:09
Speaker
Yeah, they they really needed that support. So for me, I thought I had parenting in the bag. I thought, oh my gosh, like motherhood's just going to be a walk in the park. And i gave birth to my son and I was like, what are you trying to tell me? Like, what are you doing? i just don't know. and i just felt really for the first time in a long time, really out of control, overwhelmed, really highly anxious. You know, you've got this precious little being in front of you.
00:04:38
Speaker
you want to do the best for them and you want to get it right. And I kept just like, I put a lot of pressure on myself. um When I reflect back, I can see that. um But I just felt like I was missing a big knowledge and understanding gap. And
Path to becoming a certified sleep consultant
00:04:52
Speaker
I knew that in order to feel more confident in my parenting, that gap needed to be filled in some way, because all my other life experiences had told me that if you build that knowledge and understanding already, you've just got that backup moving into a situation. yeah,
00:05:08
Speaker
it led me on a path to understand him. I wanted to know about development. I wanted to know what's kind of normal, what's expected. You know, this is really broad. I use this very sort of ah wisely in my coaching. There is norms, but there's so much outside of that. But it does help give us a baseline of like, oh,
00:05:30
Speaker
They cry for three hours a day. Oh, okay. That's normal. It's not something I've created. yeah just some basic norms around baby development, understanding how they're going to progress through that first year. i found that to be just really helpful for me. It also helped soften myself my and gave me more self-compassion.
00:05:51
Speaker
But that was the first step. And then it was knowing about sleep and knowing about nervous systems and preparation and You know, sleep is a big, it is a separation for our kids a lot of the time. If we're not practicing co-sleeping or um contact naps all day long, every day or every night, we know there's a separation involved. And I really wanted to set my child up as best as I could to feel safe internally, stay.
00:06:19
Speaker
get the best rest that he needed because I started to see every time he had a good sleep. Oh my God. He was, it was just, parenting was joyous. Like there was interaction, there was connection, there was, you know just a happy kid. And then that just had a massive role on effect for me. so that's sort of spurred my interest but at that time I was just doing it for myself our family just building that trust rapport that safety between us in our relationship as mom and child and then i saw I guess people started to sniff what I was doing or friends started to be like I saw how deep you looked yeah they're like what's going on here like what are you doing And, you know, I couldn't really pinpoint what I was doing. I was focusing on our relationship, understanding, learning, growing with him. And i yes, over my coaching, i've I've known that that's such a big step and there's so much overwhelm even in that. So for me, I guess friends started asking, family members started asking, and I got to a point where people started saying, you should really do this for a living. You've got so much knowledge to share I really think you should do it. And it kind of started to
Jen's personalized approach to sleep consulting
00:07:35
Speaker
tickle something inside of me.
00:07:37
Speaker
um i also then got to repeat it with my second child and realized it wasn't a fluke. And OK, she was very different. She was a catnapper. She didn't feed as well as my son. But I still managed to navigate some core foundations that really helped build a good sleep um a good sleep situation basically just getting the best out of what I could achieve and yeah it just went on to that curiosity of of starting to coach other people and I thought why not let's just give it a go i then just didn't want to spend my whole coaching saying oh this is what I did so why don't you do this yeah which led me on more study to get certified as an internationally recognized sleep consultant, which has then led me on to doing studies in nervous system regulation and emotional regulation. And yeah, it's it's just evolutionized my coaching as I've got more curious about um the difficulties we have in early parenting and where parents may struggle more than others. There's no right or wrong, but I really want to be able to support people where they're at. And yeah, then Sleep Thrive Grow is just growing and continuing. So yeah. I love this. And yeah, it's so interesting because yeah, like you mentioned, you kind of you handed this baby and it's like, well, what do I do? Like,
00:09:00
Speaker
you don't know you don't know about like what's normal in terms of sleeping and eating and all the rest of it so yeah I love the fact that you're like you know what let's find out yeah let's like kind of get some baseline understanding here and I think that's so important because so much we like much of the time we focus on the pregnancy and the birth and it's like well actually you know we've also got to look at what happens once we get home and um Yeah, I just, I love how it's gone grown so organically for you as well. Like it's been just that thing that's kind of progressed and yeah, it seems like you've got a really good philosophy about it as well, that it's not a strict kind of one one size fits all policy. like And I know that there's quite a few um other sleep consultants out there that probably do follow something like that. So how do you differ in in regards to this? How is yours, I suppose, yeah, focusing on the nervous system, the more holistic approach to sleep? What do you do that's a little bit different there yeah absolutely for me I really try and drop as many rules as possible some parents come to me and they'll say oh I've been told I have to feed half an hour before sleep or I have to do this I'm like we don't have to do anything is it working for you is it not um so really trying to work out what is actually working for them what's not working and Creating that safety in that experimentation, like, let's try this. This is what I think we should give a go. We can see
Understanding baby's communication beyond crying
00:10:24
Speaker
how it's landing for you and your baby and pivot if we need to. So confidence in learning on the job, experimenting, not feeling like there is this rule book, this manual that... It seems to feel like there is one, but there really isn't. So try and steer it clear of that. um Sleep is multifactorial. It's not just about settling. It's not just about environment. There's nutrition. There's our nervous system. There's so many pieces of the puzzle that can really help make sleep sustainable and optimal for fact families. We also don't just... have these perfect like schedules in our life that we don't have any other life to live and we're like oh yes we're just designed to pop our baby down at this time every day and um feel completely regulated at that time all the time and that's how it goes so i think a lot of what i coach as well is understanding the client what's their life like you know have they got a fifo husband are they a working mum is this child going to daycare as well like and really piecing and um helping together understand their capacity, their baby's capacity, what's normal, what are they on this earth to do? Like our babies, I think sometimes we we think they should get our expectations, but they are on this earth to connect with you. Like connection is the biggest driver They want to feel attached. Like that is what they're seeking for safety. They are purely in survival. Their brain is so primitive. So if we can say they just literally want to know that they're safe, um that they've got that kind that consistency in caregiving, that they can rely on someone to soothe them if they need to.
00:12:09
Speaker
And we kind of build off that. So it really honestly, Vic, looks so different for everyone I work with. I stay clear of like methods, you know, pop your baby down, pick up after five minutes, then rock two times and then do this.
00:12:24
Speaker
I just, yeah you know, as much as some type A moms that I work with are like, give me the method, like, yeah let me do this. There's definitely um strategy to certain points, like when we know about the science of sleep and how our circadian rhythm works, there's ways we do bring strategy in.
00:12:44
Speaker
Yeah, so really help timings of feeding and sleep to be like, well, a hungry baby won't sleep. So it makes sense a feed is placed here or where solids fitting into the mix. So there is strategy, but then when it comes to sleep itself. A lot of what I'm working with on parents is reducing the urgency, understanding what is that communication we're seeing, not just hearing the cry. What is their body language doing? Because our system just wants to be like cry, fix, stop. You know, it's it's the primary things our babies do that creates overwhelm, urgency, fix it mode. Yeah.
00:13:24
Speaker
But we also know that development of our baby's emotions will be crying and it's about trying to get curious as to what's going on ah around that cry. So a big thing that we see as they move through coaching is...
00:13:39
Speaker
seeing every night wake as a night wake. And then suddenly they start to see like, oh, this night wake they needed X. And then this night wake they needed XYZ. And just being able to have that clarity without feeling like you're trying to throw spaghetti at the wall, hoping it sticks and just being like, I'm doing all the things the internet's telling me to do Like I'm padding patting them in this car or I'm doing this and it's just not working. It's really trying to zoom out, settle everything down. And i help bridge that sort of gap in terms of that communication from baby to mum because they love their baby so much. Like they just want to do the best for their babies. It's not done out of anything else. It's pure love driven and they just want to soothe and support them. But in that mixed, it triggers us, our nervous system, and it can get really messy. And before you
Adapting sleep consulting to family needs
00:14:35
Speaker
know it, you just feel so lost. You're scrolling on the internet going, well, my baby's woken at 2 a.m. What does that mean? And you're just getting more and more overwhelmed. yeah And we just have to so turn down that noise and focus on your relationship, what your family needs.
00:14:51
Speaker
And it can look so many different ways that I cannot express. Like I'll have a client co-sleeping um all night long and they just wanted to reduce some of the feeding and have some other tools to use. There'll be another family that are practicing solo sleeping in a cot space because that works for them. Some have a mixture of both. Some are contact. some are you know so it There's no right or wrong. that's It's all about your relationship, your attachment and what feels at capacity for you.
00:15:19
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, and this is so refreshing to hear. Honestly. Yeah, it is. Because I mean, I love my three, but they were never the best sleepers. And I'm like, where were you? You were probably going through at the same time was. But, um,
00:15:36
Speaker
Yeah, it is just so refreshing because i I remember being in that position and being like, I don't know what to do. And I remember waking up my husband several times, like, I literally can't get this baby to sleep. And, you know, i i know you you hear that about the thing, you know, the baby picks up on your emotions. And it's true, like when you're feeling like, oh, my God, just sleep, like, I'm so tired, I need to go to bed now. And They're not they're not sleeping, of course. It's just like this cycle and you can't get out of it. So like I said, it is so refreshing to know that there's someone like you that is able to go, you know, but let's look at your situation. Let's see what's unique for your family and make it work.
00:16:11
Speaker
um with what's happening because yeah I know we did we did try quite a few things we did try a sleep consultant as well and it was ah it was a method and it the method didn't work for us it wasn't it wasn't suitable to our child it wasn't suitable to our life so yeah I love the fact that you're you're actually looking at the whole family as well as a 100% yeah yeah and I get a lot of failed sleep programmers come to me they're like I failed that sleep program didn't work for me. And I think it's really knowing that sleep should be flexible, should be adaptable. They're not robots. um
00:16:48
Speaker
You know, some foundations, yes, really helps and it can optimize sleep, but that's not it. You know, trying to keep doing a method till you're blue in the face when it really isn't connecting. Sometimes it's taking a step back. Sometimes it's shifting our approach. And a lot of the times for me, it is, is,
00:17:06
Speaker
is seeing, okay, what is the kind of block here? What is coming up for clients? And some clients might be really wanting to do things, but almost their body and how their belief system is holding them back as well. Like, oh, but I feel like I'm damaging my child. Well, we want to address that belief first, because that's going to stop you moving forward in the first place. Let's talk about that. Let's understand where this is eventuated from. Has it something you, is it has it been something you've read has it been something that you've just believed from day one like how can we work on that first to to build the momentum forward and every child sounds different as well there's different temperaments you know there's certain children that are just more um like their nervous system is just more hyper aware You know, they see separation as danger and it's just this whole process that we need to work with where our child's at in the mix rather than thinking that the goal is get them as independent as quickly as possible. It's like we really need to meet them where they're at. What they're doing is biologically normal. It's their wiring to seek proximity, be close, get that safety reassurance. let's shape our support to, again, meet both parent and baby is so crucial. And a key point you said, Vic, it's like, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:18:30
Speaker
I hope you don't know what you're doing because, you know, I think we see that as a negative thing, but one of the biggest things we need to come into parenting with is that beginner's mindset. We are a beginner again. Even if you've come from a workforce where you're like nailing it, you're a CEO, you're a manager,
00:18:49
Speaker
You are a beginner right now. You are doing your first driving lesson. And if you can just say, I'm not supposed to know what I'm doing, together we're experimenting. I'm working out, does this stick? Does that work? Has that helped? Oh my God, that fired them up even more. Maybe I need to shift. And it's having the confidence.
00:19:07
Speaker
Because that we feel like there's this societal pressure that we should keep our baby happy at all times. We should know what we're doing. It should be perfect. And that just hovers over us at these times instead of being like, Ashley, I'm not supposed to know what I'm doing. In fact, a perfect parent isn't the ideal parent because that does not set a child up for this crazy world we live in. We want them to know that life isn't perfect. If they can learn that from us, that we can make mistakes and try again.
00:19:36
Speaker
You know, we have the beautiful process of rupture and repair. We we mess up. We don't nail it. They cry an hour longer than we thought because we were trying something. That's okay. We have this beautiful repair system that allows us to step back in, provide that warmth and nurturing and Sorry, like I was just frustrated, you know, all the things, even if they can't understand you sometimes just saying it it's like, sorry, mommy was just having one of those nights, you know, I love you. Then we move on So that, you know, not knowing what you're doing is actually really key part of your journey.
00:20:10
Speaker
Oh, and that's so good to hear as well, because I think, yeah, for so many, um so many of us, you know, we, yeah, like you said, we come from, you know, all right, we've got out we've got our life sorted, we know what we're doing. And then yeah you're like, oh, I've got no idea what I'm doing.
00:20:24
Speaker
It's like, yeah,
Supporting baby's nervous system through co-regulation
00:20:25
Speaker
there's, there's no manual. And they're really, oh even though there's lots of parenting books, then there's lots of this and that. I think we seem to forget that every single child is so unique and so different that, like you said, you know, between your first and your second child, things are still going to be different between the second and the third. Like, yeah, we're we're all our own unique beings. So, of course, that would make sense with sleep as well. So yeah how does it work? I know you've mentioned, like, the nervous system, the mind-body connection. How does that kind of come into the work that you're doing with families? How does that help and, yeah, kind of give you that different perspective, I guess? Yeah. Yeah, it's such a big piece, but really understanding that when our babies are born, they have that underdeveloped nervous system. There's only so much that is done on the inside and so much is on the outside by their experiences around us, experiencing the world, feeling and building up that nervous system, which means that they borrow from ours a lot of the time. They don't have that self-regulation inbuilt yet. we didn't get a full self-regulation system until our mid-20s. So our babies are just really left in that vulnerable state of needing to use us so much in that support to feel safe and regulated again. You know, a dysregulated child is just they they're just ah out of their calm, out of their balance. Our job as a parent is to help them come back into balance, into calm again. And the only way that we can give them our nervous system, if you like, is by being regulated ourselves. And calm is something we want to try and find. It's, it's not feeling you it's being calm enough. You don't have to be you know, completely calm and regulated. I think that can scare a lot of people because they're like, Oh, you know, um it is calm enough. So you might be holding your baby while they're crying
00:22:22
Speaker
breathing, you might still be frustrated thinking, oh my God, I've got X, Y, Z to do I've got, you know, like I can hear my toddler screaming, you know, there's, there's yeah it's calm enough. It's like,
Parental self-care and empathy in parenting
00:22:34
Speaker
can I find enough calm so they can borrow from me? because a dysregulated child cannot regulate themselves they need to borrow from us and that's where that nervous system capacity it's almost like when you become a parent because you're put in so many situations that you feel so out of control with it is creating a new nervous system kind of and build rebuilding um because and really getting curious around your triggers um you know that
00:23:05
Speaker
crying is really triggering me. It's creating this urgency in me. I wonder why that is like, it's not wrong, but why is it triggering me? If you can start with the awareness, you can start with like, okay,
00:23:17
Speaker
I just need to pause, like have a deep breath, or maybe it's splash some water on your face, or maybe it's highlighting that we just feel like we're just burnt out running and supporting and we haven't given ourselves enough, you know, even the boring self-care moments help build our nervous system up, you know, taking a moment to go to the toilet on your own, having a shower, having a coffee. Yeah, it's amazing.
00:23:41
Speaker
It's the boring stuff. It's not necessarily the massages. Obviously they're amazing, but we're realistic in early parenting. There's not so many of these opportunities, but it is placing your oxygen mask on first so you can attend to others. It's such a cliche saying, but it is really true. And a lot of the work I'm doing is really trying to understand mum's triggers and overwhelm around sleep, where she's maybe putting too much pressure on us herself, um,
00:24:10
Speaker
where she's feeling like it goes from being able to respond to interreacting and trying to fix, like, where's that, where does that happen? You know, what is the trigger for that? um Let's work on building up some confidence and some new supportive messaging at those times um so that she always feels that she's got something. You know, the last thing we want to do is leave parents tool-less and say, The only thing that's been working is feeding to sleep. And I say, well, you've got to stop doing that to get better sleep. It's just going to feel completely.
00:24:46
Speaker
You're just going to go into it already panicking because you're like, i I can't feed them. That one thing that has been working time and time again, even if I'm not loving it right now or I want another option it still has been the only thing that I've had to regulate myself and my baby. So we want to say like, let's not strip away things that do work. Let's just build more options in. And yeah, I guess that's the big nervous system piece is, you know, working out where we're feeling uncomfortable, working out that our babies need us to feel comfortable. So bridging the gap there with either tools, understanding, knowledge,
00:25:25
Speaker
And they'll say things like, oh, you know, I'm just realizing that when they do this, this is what gets me. And it's just these beautiful moments of awareness that we then can build off and be like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let's try this approach. Because the last thing we need in early parenting is someone is feeling pressured or someone saying like, you're failing, you're doing it wrong, because there is no right or wrong. Like, it's a case of going, getting curious. Okay, why isn't this working? Like, you know, and I might say something like, how's your day been today? Oh God, well, my husband left for FIFO this morning and, you know, we didn't leave on the best foot, you know, or something like that. You already know that that capacity is going to be so much lower. Like your nervous system capacity for your child to borrow from is going to be narrowed. And we're like,
Balancing rest and parenting
00:26:15
Speaker
okay, let's have some self-compassion in that moment. Yeah. And we can still know that every sleep is a new opportunity.
00:26:23
Speaker
Whether it ends up being an absolute shit show at that time is okay. And you're like, yeah what the hell just happened? Everything just went out the window. just you Sitting in blame or shame serves no one. It's a dead end street. So just go, oh my God, hopefully I can laugh about this one day. Moving through to the next one. Tomorrow is a new day.
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah. And how lucky are these people that work with you to have someone that's so compassionate and understanding working beside them? Because, yeah, when you're sleep deprived, like your capacity already is quite diminished. And like, yeah, as you said, then you add on that the other things that might be happening throughout the day. So, yeah I love that you're there to kind of remind them that.
00:27:06
Speaker
You know, it's okay. And like I said, not take away the things that are working as well because I think that's what another thing that so many people get told, oh, that's wrong, you shouldn't be doing that. Or, you yeah, like people, I know at one point I got told that I had done the wrong thing by my daughter at one point and it was this was by a paediatrician. Like it was devastating. Like I still remember it clear as a day, not like who is a bell now. So, You know, you're having someone like you beside them going, you know, it's okay. It's so okay to be doing this. It's okay if your capacity is not at the best that it is. That is just so reassuring, Jen. And like I said, it's just amazing that you're there to help people do this. So like, oh, you're a bit of a godsend.
00:27:46
Speaker
Thank No, I really, yeah, as I said, I think I have such a driver for parents to feel empowered with options to just enjoy it. Like early parenting, it's chaotic, it's messy. There's, you know, these immature nervous systems running around everywhere. You're needing to share your nervous system with them multiple times during the day. It's a lot, but it is so magical at the same time. And you know trying to find, like you said, rest is such a crucial part, being able to have downtime, being able to get some decent stretches of sleep within biological norms, what we're expecting or what we can say is possible. um Shaping that to the individual family is is really key because rest is,
00:28:32
Speaker
fuels our ability to think. um We canno cannot think like logically, concentrate, do any of those higher thinking functions without sleep. um It is our lifeline in early parenting. It helps our capacity. It helps us you know, move from starting the day as Mary Poppins to Coelho DeVille by the end of the day. You know, we want to kind of keep your Mary Poppins until the end yeah um where you can feel like you're just showing up and recognizing the humans on this earth learning. I'm learning too. And yeah, I think that's just such a, such a godsend. And when we do take the pressure off, I just literally see so much of a roll on effect. Like they might come to me with like 10 night wakes and just be like, I'm just, I ah don't even know where to start. We start at the at the falling asleep and we just see what happens. A lot of the time when we're working on stuff there within our capacity, the rest just falls into place. So it's not feeling like we have to just do this crazy intervention, like rip the bandaid off, do this. And it's just everyone's nervous system is going to be like, whoa, this is too much. You
Babies' perception of safety and the role of parents
00:29:39
Speaker
know, your baby has learned and practiced and repeated this same messaging with you. And we rip it all away in the first day or two. like that is a lot. Your babies, depending on especially their temperament, it's, it can really throw them too much. And we can't work with that. Nobody learns in that much dysregulation. So it's understanding that yes, we're going to find their challenge zones within a normal, healthy kind of place for their age and stage that we know, um This is a healthy challenge zone we can explore. um Okay. Yep. They handled it well. Oh my gosh, that really threw them. Let's just try this once in the day because three or four times they're just, it's not going to be viable for them.
00:30:23
Speaker
So really building a new message of safety for them because they can't see perspective like we can. They can't see, oh, that cot's a great place. Mum will always come when I cry. Like they don't see it. They attach what's safe through perception, you know, so what they hear, feel see taste touch if they've had a lot of that contact going from that to the cot space they're losing all their safety messaging in one one hit so we really want to start to foster that into the way we ah support and approach um sleep for families
00:30:57
Speaker
Yeah, which makes sense as well. i mean, even as adults, when we're trying to make changes, if we try and overhaul everything, it doesn't work. And our brain's kind of like, ah, no, that's not okay. So it's totally understandable that, you know, these tiny little babies of ours or toddlers or whoever we're were trying to improve their sleep, of of course, they're going to have the same reaction because...
00:31:16
Speaker
Yeah, totally understandable. but Yeah. and And a more immature reaction, right? Because they can't regulate themselves. So they're going to need co-regulation to support that to be okay and safe. And that's just another additional thing that we need to um have available to give them. so Having that empathy and sturdiness, I think, is really key for through any change. Like you said, Vic, even for us, change can be challenging. You know, even creating a new habit of ourselves, going to the gym or doing something that really will benefit our life, it's still hard. And our brain will just be like, nah, sit on the couch, don't worry about it. um so Yeah, so so true. oh Yeah, it is understanding that change.
00:31:59
Speaker
has some discomfort. We can't get that growth and that um place of sustainability without feeling discomfort first. It's almost knowing that that's going to be part of the journey, but we can manage how much discomfort our individual nervous systems can handle and still build that momentum forward.
00:32:16
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, love this.
Working with older children's sleep challenges
00:32:18
Speaker
And I mean out of curiosity, do you ever work with families with older children with sleep issues as well? Is that something that you... know my my certification goes up to the age of five. However, you know, I have got older kids, so I guess I can bring some of the learnings in. And there's sometimes where I might be supporting a family with a younger child, but then they're like, hey, can I talk about Rosie? Yeah. And they'll just want like a few little tips and things like that. So yeah, that's often definitely something that comes up occasionally. um But my, I guess my sort of passion area is that early parenting. That's what I love the most. You know, even for me, I'm still learning with my older kids. Like there's times where you're only recently with my nine-year-old, I was like, God,
00:33:08
Speaker
what's going on at bedtime? She was in these anxiety spirals. And I found that we were going through these massive long narrations before bed of like, she's safe, the world's safe, but you know, all these things. And was thinking, this seems to be, feel I've got a gut feeling this isn't helping, but I,
00:33:28
Speaker
I don't want her to feel these feelings before bed. And that was a big thing. And I started doing my own learnings, even for my, you know, for my youngest nine, who's nine. And um we started to shorten down the messaging. I started to realize I was feeding her anxious loop of thoughts.
00:33:47
Speaker
me soothing it. But realistically, if I got very, very curious, I was not wanting her to worry before bed. So I was actually soothing my discomfort yeah of, you know, you can't worry, you can't feel like, you know, this before bed, you must feel completely pleasant and safe every time and and all the things. it's that balance of hard and soft parenting, that firm and kind, um you know, those boundaries that they need, because in that moment,
00:34:16
Speaker
They don't have that brain capacity to to sort that out and organize that themselves. So yeah for me, it took um shortening our little speech. You know, we still say something like, mom is safe, dad is safe, sleep now, worry can be and we can still sleep, something along that lines we've got to. And there can be as I'm leaving, you know, like, is everyone safe, blah, blah, blah. And I say, yes, sleep time now, Emery. And, you know, there's there's this still gut feeling of wanting to do more. yeah I know that that has fed over over my experiences with my with her and me.
00:34:52
Speaker
Yeah, it's fed these anxious loops. So I have to really kind of step in as that leader at that point and say, like, you know, as I said, it's kind, it's not go to sleep now, like that is enough. I'm not doing that sentence one more time with you. It's like, you're safe,
Navigating children's developmental changes
00:35:07
Speaker
you know, and time to sleep now. And that's, that's finished. We don't keep talking. Yeah.
00:35:13
Speaker
And help her then find some coping mechanisms of her own. You know, that's very normal. It's co-regulation from us, but she still can start to grow her self-regulation as well. So we've put up at the moment, it's working very well, actually. Yeah. is, you know, I know one of the things for insomnia, they might tell you to do math at sleep time to sort of get your brain to focus on something else rather than, you know, I'm still awake and these to-do lists kind of take your brain focus to something else. So we've got these little times tables and I'm like, okay,
00:35:50
Speaker
to help yourself learn some tools because I've given her a few options. yeah But I said, you've got try, it's going to feel hard because you're used to these loops. what it Like these are some things you can do to help yourself if you're struggling.
00:36:03
Speaker
um You know you're in a safe house. Everything's okay. um So she's she's been doing the times tables and she came out her room the other day. um in the morning and said, mum, like say my three times tables, you know, test me on them. And she was nailing it. Oh, I love it.
00:36:21
Speaker
yeah So, you know, it's beneficial as well. Exactly. I'm like, wow. Like I said to her, I said, look at you killing two birds. You're yeah helping yourself in your body feel safer to let go and know that everything's okay. And you're also learning your times tables. Yeah. like like yeah a such a parenting win yeah so yeah I still still learning I think we never stop learning in parenting and questioning ourselves that's so normal you know sometimes I think of a conversation and I go probably didn't handle that the best or yeah you know I jumped in with a no without really thinking it through and um
00:37:00
Speaker
and But you've got the blessing, like we said earlier on, rupture and repair. If you say something, you realize you sort of said it without thinking or you were just, you know, overwhelmed in that moment, just go back to your child. They're a human. Just say, hey, mum just said that. Like, I'm sorry. I didn't listen, really listen to what you were trying to ask me. Should we start again? Do you want to go through that? And that's, that's what we do, right? That's what being a human is all about.
00:37:26
Speaker
Yeah, and it's so good for them to see that as well and to see that example from us. So they know how to do it themselves. but um Yes. Yeah, it's just it interesting. While you were talking as well about your nine-year-old, I'm like, there's just also recognizing that there's so many different developmental things that are happening at different ages. And um obviously that plays a big part in sleep, like, you know, the hormones starting to...
00:37:47
Speaker
come in and you know their awareness and their own um brain development as well like there's so many different factors as well so I think that's where it is always good like you said to remain curious and be like I wonder why this is happening and like if there's you know something more going on like biologically that we need to kind of assess as well and yeah I think that that's always something to keep in mind as a parent because sometimes we're just like what is going on here And just, it's meant to happen. Some things are just meant to happen. That's, that's completely normal for the um development. And I think we need to recognize that as well, that, you know, it's not always about us or what we're doing. It's just, you know, that's just what their body's needing at that time. yeah. Yeah. And I think definitely that is, is just ask them the questions as well. Why, why are you feeling like this at bedtime? Has it come from anywhere? um yeah Sometimes it is. And sometimes they can't say why they just have a feeling inside. And it's, you know, if we think about worry at bedtime, they might, this might be the 50th time they've ever felt worry in their life. that It's still such a new ah new feeling for them. So it's like they haven't had experience with this feeling and everything being okay. So sometimes it's just a case of it's a new feeling. I've never, I've not had practice working through and it's just there. And then we just want to bring safety to that.
00:39:10
Speaker
Emotions do have an exit. They do pass and it will feel better. Yeah. And just like you mentioned with hormones, you know, definitely for my 12 year old girl, we've had a few chats about explaining that, you know, she's, she's going to be 13 at the end of the year, um how her brain will be doing so much rewiring in those teenage years. Cause she said at um bedtime the other day, cause bedtime's where everything comes out, right? It's when we get to actually stop and think, I think, as well. lot Our days are so busy. It's the one time we can just be.
00:39:41
Speaker
but and it's And it's like allowing, I think, what I've noticed as my kids have got older, it's allowing more space for that because it's very normal. Like you said, Vic, you get to the end of the day and they have been going from school, maybe doing an after-school activity, all the things, and then they get to bed and it's all just starting to change to get organized for themselves and then some things don't feel as good and understanding that as your kids get older they might need you more um at bedtime it might not just be you know a quick settling down and they're off to sleep in 10 minutes they actually might need you in a bigger capacity because emotionally and biologically there is so much going on And that's what I said to my daughter. I said, your brain is literally rewiring like right now that you're going to have feelings that don't make sense. And, you know, and just so many things and just so many different thoughts that you've never felt or, you know, before um and just opening renovations happening. Yeah, yeah. Literally, your brain is just under construction again. yeah You know, just feel like you can reach out and talk it through. I'll always listen. um But I do want to normalize that this is normal for you. As much as it feels uncomfortable, it will pass and you will feel, you know, you will be able to sleep still and you will feel better.
00:41:03
Speaker
Yeah,
The REST framework for effective sleep consulting
00:41:04
Speaker
and that's so reassuring for them to know as well because sometimes it does feel like your mind's a bit of a, what's going on in here? and They're probably not understanding that. So to explain, yeah, you know, this is normal, you will be you will be thinking new thoughts and having new reactions and all the rest of it and letting them know that that's that's to be expected. Yeah. And I love how open you are with that communication with them as well. It's, yeah, very reassuring.
00:41:30
Speaker
It's funny. My son will be like, oh, mom, can you not? Like, can you not go through? I'll be like, Jax, well, your brain's doing all of this. He's like, oh, my God. Like, you know, my daughters are very receptive, but my son, but I feel like,
00:41:45
Speaker
I've given him enough acknowledgement that this is okay. um And, you know, he's just being a typical teenage boy that's just like, shut up, mom. Like, this is not what I want to hear. I'm cool. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. But it's it's funny. it's It's just knowing that I think just that acknowledgement and going, okay, well, I planted the seed and at least he knows that he's not just...
00:42:08
Speaker
yeah, going crazy inside for sure. Yeah, that's so good. And I guess in terms of like all the people that you've worked with and yeah, yeah are there any kind of patterns or any main things that you've noticed that are helpful when it comes to sleep um in any capacity, whether it's, you know, for younger children, older children, like are there kind of some guidelines that you might have that are helpful for parents that you know, perhaps are a bit like, oh gosh, and you know, is this the right track or what am I doing here? Like, is there any kind of, yeah, anything major that you've kind of noticed? I have been thinking a bit of, of a framework lately of trying to kind of incorporate steps that I think is really helpful. um i did come up with something called rest where it's our full relationship. It's focusing on the relationship between you and your child. if You can just get to know them and know that they don't care about, you know, whether you've got a clean house or the shopping's been done. Like they're just so solely almost blinkered to the relationship with you. Their job is to just create that strong attachment, that trust, that,
00:43:12
Speaker
that inbuilt safety system that you've got them if they're having a hard time. So your relationship matters. If you're feeling triggered by your baby's development, they're crying, um you know, or you've got some things that you feel aren't going so well, like feeding, like just start with getting curious there first and, and building that. So definitely know that you weren't ever meant to do this journey alone. And sometimes they are showing us signs where they generally uncomfortable, and we do need to investigate that. So that's that getting to know piece, you know, we we get so busy, but really spending that time um with them is just so crucial.
00:43:53
Speaker
Yeah. um Then moving into E, which is like expectations, like sometimes we put too much, a very high expectation on a very little kid, um you know, a child to be out here, there, everywhere, and then to settle beautifully in a cot, probably not going to happen. yeah. It's just really understanding that their nervous system is immature. What we find stimulating is, can just be like going on a roller coaster for them. So knowing that we've had a busy few days, it's really normal to see this roll on effects of that, where they're just very tired, need to kind of, you know, adjust back into a home day. It's definitely not feeling like you can't leave the home. I really want to emphasize it's important for our mental health to get out and about and do the things that
00:44:39
Speaker
practicing um naps on the go can be just such a great way of doing so combining both needs at once so you know having really kind of checking in with their expectations um you know i do have on sleep just like a little free guide that people can download and it just shows you how many naps awake times they're not again they're there as a guide it's not it's not that this is how it has to be but you might look at it for example um you might look at your eight month old and um you've been doing two hour awake windows and then you go oh they can have up to four like sometimes so like wow okay that's something i can look into so expectations um because i couldn't think of just one its environment as well love them
00:45:27
Speaker
so you know, we know what our bodies respond best to. Our circadian rhythm responds to food, light, social interaction. So, you know, ah brightly lit home um in and trying to get a two-year-old to go to bed and say it's bedtime and we've got the TV on, we've got activity. It's just... It's just not matching. We need our environment to cue what the next step is and to that help that nervous system prepare for sleep. We don't go from a pub to the bed and we're able to switch off. We need to look at our environment. Are we preparing for that adjustment?
00:46:02
Speaker
building messaging into that so they know what's coming um and things like that can distract sleep you know bright lights or stuff like that can just disturb sleep and create that so really looking into the environment as well um can be just an easy thing that you do and it can just transform what the sleep is it's crazy um And then safety is S. So that's really coming down to that safety and how the parents feeling if they're feeling um urgency, you're not feeling safe in that, ah you know, in that moment. So we want to get you feeling safe in your messaging. it can bring in that knowledge and understanding, a new toolkit for you that you can work towards. um And that internal sense of safety, we want our baby to feel by a consistent response system. It's not necessarily having the same response in each time, but it's having the consistency, someone comes, this is how i i get soothed and that feeling inside. um
00:47:04
Speaker
Another whole big part to safety is is airway health and this is um things looking into tongue ties, lip ties, snoring. If our baby's sleeping with their mouth open, their tongue is sitting on the roof on the bottom of their mouth, they're not gonna get that safety feeling internally. The tongue, if we were to tilt our head back and shut our eyes, our tongue naturally goes up to the roof of our mouth. That's um what signals nervous. it It connects to our vagus nerve. It allows our body to feel safe. So there's lots of kids I meet in my journey, like especially it kind of hits toddler years and this really comes undone. And um so, yeah, airway health is such a primary source stress.
00:47:49
Speaker
internal safety in their system as well so something i've done extra education on to guide parents if need be um so safety then you've got um temperament and time so temperament like we talked about earlier every child's different there's going to be some child children that just need to borrow a lot more from you because it's just there. They have a more sensitive system. we We want to look into that and know that nothing's wrong, but we just want to adapt to our individual children plus our temperament too. We can have, we can be very sensitive and have this like very spirited child. Like we're constantly feeling tested by that because they are so opposite to us in so many ways. So bringing safety to our, sorry,
00:48:37
Speaker
understanding our temperament as well in that moment is key and and time time is our best friend it's time to experiment time to grow and learn make mistakes try something different um time honestly it's just sleep is so evolving like your baby will need you more in the beginning and as they so slowly start to get older and older I wouldn't say they need you less. They need you in different ways or maybe not in such a physical capacity as they once did. So just as we talked about older kids needing more time. So, um yeah, really understanding that, you know, it can feel like this is your whole world right now, but it does get easier. You will get more confident because you will have more, many more months of being a parent and many more years of being a parent. um And just, yeah, having that
Connecting with Jen and final advice
00:49:26
Speaker
compassion for that learning, growth and giving yourself that time is crucial.
00:49:30
Speaker
Oh, I love that, Jen. Thank you so much for sharing that. And one, I've got two more questions before we finish up, but one, um firstly, how can people work with you? Where can they find you? What do you, like, what are you doing out there? Yeah, yeah. so I do have my own podcast, Thriving Parenting. That's useful for, there's, I think, 100 episodes now. um You can scroll through and see if any of them tickle your fancy. um There's some on sleep. There's some on um mindset. Just, know, anything really that helps your early parenting journey um with some guests as well, just like you, Vic. And then I'm online, usually mostly on Instagram. I float in and out of TikTok. I need to get more consistent with TikTok. But yeah.
00:50:16
Speaker
Sometimes it's just managing it all right Vic. Yeah I know. Yeah so my Instagram is sleep underscore thrive underscore grow um so I'm active on there most days.
00:50:29
Speaker
um My services involve one-on-one I do have sleep guides and um i do have a membership um where people will come into my world and hang out there where I answer some questions um every week. I try and not overwhelm you with too many things. It's more that safe space of really just feeling like held in parenting. um Have I mentioned everything? I think so. But there is a really wide range depending on what you need. um Some people get so many positives out of a one-off coaching session and for someone else. my signature three three week program, my sleep godmother program, where we're one-on-one for 21 days as we're sort of growing and building and learning about ourselves and learning about the messaging we're giving and optimizing sleep at the same time.
00:51:22
Speaker
is what's is what parents need and what they feel gives them the most support and the step forward to feel confident in their parenting so i don't believe there's a right or wrong in the amount of support you need um some of us need a personal trainer some of us are highly motivated to just go to the gym on our own so it doesn't matter um and but just recognizing where you're at and knowing that support in some capacity in early parenting is I just think it's essential personally yeah Yeah. So yeah, that's where me. And i love how you've got, yeah, different options for, yeah, depending on what you need and budget and all the rest of it. So that's great to hear. And last question before we finish up, if you could leave the listeners with just one piece of advice, what would that be?
00:52:08
Speaker
pause it's got to be pause it's like my favorite thing to do it's you know it's what's that little saying it's like there's a stimulus there's a there's a gap between a stimulus and a response so even if your baby's crying if they're in a safe place just pause just give yourself a minute because you're more likely going to be able to get curious read the situation with more clarity if you're rushing in there, your emotions are all just shaken up. It's like a snow globe. You've got to wait for the like for the flakes to settle. yeah And it doesn't mean leaving them for 10 minutes. It's like just a few minutes to just be
00:52:46
Speaker
going to breathe. And same with older parenting, right? It's, you know, their two siblings are shouting at each other. and Just pause. Do you need to get involved? Are they kind of moving through this? Like if they're safe, sometimes it's a case of them learning how to navigate that. and We often just want to fix and stop, but actually like pausing, recognizing what it's doing, what that trigger is in you. Telling your body it's not an emergency. That's what the pause does. We cannot change and choose our response if our body's like shallow breathing, fast heart rate. We have to work on our body first and then our mind can follow. So i just say pause. I do it so often. Even my kids will say, you know, if it has been particularly chaotic, they hear me like,
00:53:34
Speaker
And they're like, mom, why are you heavy breathing? And i'm I'm just bringing my nervous system, you know, back online so I can access that higher thing thinking. Otherwise, I'm going to just be reacting everywhere, like reacting all over the place. And there's no regulation happening. So pause, just give yourself a moment. It's bit of self-compassion.
00:53:54
Speaker
So good. Thank you so much, Jen. really have loved chatting to you today and I'm sure the listeners will get a lot out of it as well. So thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully, yeah, it lands well and everyone gets something, some gold nugget today. Yeah, for sure. ah Thank you. Thank you, Vick.