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Business of Machining - Episode 66
182 Plays7 years ago
*YAWN* Saunders is s bit sluggish from last night's informative and intoxicating brain picking session after a DMG event in Chicago.
At a customer panel, Devon--1186 mfg and Albert from Machined Concepts share their stories and some food for thought: 5-Axis isn't just for one-offs or complex parts! A great deal of people are using 3+2 machining in a production environment, which is a great way to transition into full 5-Axis capabilities. So, does that make automating a 3-Axis machine worth it? Maybe not.
A NEW METRIC Calculating your REVENUE per sq ft per YEAR has its merits.
THE SAGA of the SAGA Grimsmo gets a blast from the past when he steps into a local spring making shop. With the fitting nomenclature and high quality, custom springs checked off the list, GK gears up to bring as many pens to Blade Show 2018 as possible! Get your Blade Show tickets here!
CORPORATE ESPIONAGE? Alarm bells are raised when Saunders stumbles across a knife maker who's got a strikingly similar mechanism design...and you'll never guess who it is!
Grimsmo wants to be open about the processes and design for the new product BUT for now, he wants to keep the "secret sauce" simmering for a bit.
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Transcript
Introduction and Greetings
00:00:01
Speaker
Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining, episode number 66. My name is John Grimsmo. My name is John Saunders. Good morning, my friend. Good morning. How are you? I'm awesome.
00:00:13
Speaker
Awesome. Yeah. And how are you doing? Great.
Insights from DMG Mori Event
00:00:17
Speaker
I was in, I am in Chicago and had a great time yesterday at this DMG event and I'm going to be there more today. But I am a little bit tired because I ended up spending four hours at the hotel bar with a DMG app sky.
00:00:38
Speaker
That is perfect. You know, it was actually great although, you know, I drank probably one too many beers and then didn't eat dinner but it was actually great. Yeah. It's surprisingly rare when you get that kind of time with that kind of knowledgeable person, you know? Right. No, it's exactly it.
Role of Salespeople and Engineers in Machine Tool Purchases
00:01:00
Speaker
I don't know, I feel like you're the same way. I get frustrated when I speak with people and have what I think are relatively basic questions and they don't know the answers, especially, sorry, don't get me wrong, the event here has been great and generally speaking, the people have been phenomenal, but if you walk up to a salesperson and they're debuting the next generation of a machine, I'm perplexed when they can't articulate pretty darn well what's different and what's new and so forth.
00:01:28
Speaker
So the apps guys are great for that. Oh my gosh. Yeah.
00:01:33
Speaker
That's cool. Yeah, it's like when whenever we have apps guys or install guys or technicians or the Renishaw guys or whatever come over here, like we give them lunch just to like be able to sit down and then chill, right? Totally. But, you know, it's different, too. I'm learning. I'd heard this from our Haas HFO guys, and I'm hearing it now more and more of the sales guy is
00:01:59
Speaker
Less and less involved with the actual machine tool, which is I think interesting because it reflects the fact that you're not just buying a machine tool, you're buying an overall solution. So one of the things we talked a lot about last night was the roles that DMG Mori plays in the ongoing
00:02:18
Speaker
capitalization and maintenance of the machine and then the forms of whether you have capital leases or operating leases on machines what's your residual buyout or is it something you can walk away from insurance from the factory on the machine and how that actually works and so the the sales guy can help structure all of that stuff as well as the more turnkey side of tying in
00:02:40
Speaker
you know, the rash calculator or work holding and stuff. And I don't mean cliche to work holding like we'll put a vice on there. I mean more robust actual production solutions around a product or product line. Whereas the apps guy is the one who's much, much more technical. And I just think as you and I are so technical, maybe that means we want we always want more, right? Yep, yep. Yeah, we always want the inside knowledge, the information, the skill set, the like, like you've got years of experience. Tell me what I'm missing kind of thing.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, I'm very fascinated. I mean, I think, gosh, we got a lot to talk about with that pen you post on Instagram, but I mean, I think your business is gonna explode, which sounds crazy because it hasn't been slow, but you're gonna get to the point where you're gonna be
00:03:25
Speaker
very intellectually curious and business curious about what the machine tools are and what the right ones to buy. And you're going to have all these questions, but then you're never actually going to be the one operating them. But you're still going to you're still going to want to know, you know, the big thing for me yesterday was trying to understand which machines are still the polymer granite, which ones are back to cast, why they made that move, what are the implications, so forth.
Business Growth and Machinery Interests
00:03:49
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, it's
00:03:52
Speaker
It's really fun and interesting. I think we're both kind of reaching this almost next tier of business. Like that article you sent me a couple of weeks ago and you mentioned in the podcast, it's like,
00:04:05
Speaker
everything you need to know to get up to it, break a million dollars in revenue, basically. And, uh, you know, to be honest, like we're going to do that this year and it's, it's amazing. And, but it is different. Like it's, it's a ton of work and a ton of experience at everything to get to that point. And now that we're breaking through it, I feel like my role.
00:04:25
Speaker
is changing and I still need to know all the technical stuff but as you said I won't be the guy you know administering it all the time and that's it's fascinating to like think about and plan and I think our future growth and machine purchases are going to be a lot quicker
00:04:44
Speaker
and a lot, not impulsive, but just a lot more like get it done, get it done. Yeah, I got the money to do it. Let's just do it. Let's get it done. I think that's, I think that's, it's not that that's going to be low stress or easy, but I think it will be more appropriate when
00:04:59
Speaker
you have a very specific, you're overall more knowledgeable, but you also have a more specific vision and expectation of a machine tool.
Exploring 5-Axis Machining Benefits
00:05:07
Speaker
You have to still, it'll be tough, it'll take time to bounce around to talk to different builders and understand the feature set and all that, but still, it's so much more fun to do that when you're like, this is what I need to do and here are the problems with it or here's the goal. Absolutely. Yep, and then you find out quickly if you're talking to the right guy or not.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah. Yes, that is true. And you know how it is. It's easy to get sucked into conversation like mediocre conversation. And in your head, you're like, I got to get out of here. But to find the tactful way to be able to move on,
00:05:44
Speaker
and say, you know, thank you. Moving on is a skill that I'm trying to develop because I'm so like nice and friendly. And I just I like to listen and other people like to talk so I get sucked into all these long conversations that I really don't, you know, benefit from. Yeah. Right. So when I go to these shows, I'm trying to be much better, but like.
00:06:04
Speaker
That's awesome. Thank you so much. I got to go. Yeah, just say no. Yeah, the automation is better than I had thought or expected or recall from DMG. And I think that may be even even relative to emo, which wasn't that long ago, they've got some interesting solutions for
00:06:26
Speaker
the three axis verticals, but even that like DMU 50, that's kind of the entry level five axis. They've got a 15-pool palette changer on it. Excuse me, they call it the peach 15, but it's a 10-pool. It's an aroa platform, so I think they have a
00:06:43
Speaker
partnership with Aroa, but it's sold as a DMG product, which arguably has its benefits because they're responsible for the integration. But it's a really nice size, I think, for a lot more general five-axis work or even tombstone work.
00:07:00
Speaker
And it's cool to see, I mean, it sounds so obvious, but they had a five-axis customer panel with 1186 from Instagram as well as Machine Concepts, which is a fellow named Albert. They're both in the Chicago area and have some awesome Instagram stories about their five-axis machines, but also pretty cool about how they've grown into more advanced machinery and more advanced technology and software and automation and so forth. And one of the things they were talking about is
00:07:30
Speaker
don't think that 5-axis has to be for the one-offs or the single setups or the super big complex parts that you need a lot of true 5-axis for. Most, if not all of them, were using 5-axis for 3 plus 2 mostly, but in a production environment with bulk fixturing, with tombstones, with automation, with pallets, with robots, which is so obvious to me now that you see it, but I think we're still
00:07:58
Speaker
going to see more momentum moving that way. Absolutely. Even just regular three-axis machining. But if you can palletize it and optimize it, and like with, what do you call them? Those angled fixtures for five-axis? Like where you fit four parts on the little vise around the, and they're all 45 degree angles? Yeah.
00:08:18
Speaker
And just an easy way to do optimized three axis setup on a palletized five axis. It is kind of obvious. But I don't see that's what I went into this show looking at was would I try to automate a three axis machine? And I don't think I would. I think it's way too much investment of real estate in the shop. Actually, that's another really interesting point is people are measuring. They're now measuring machine efficiency by
00:08:47
Speaker
revenue per square foot per year. Which does have some merit to it when it comes to the footprint and not so much of an emphasis on size but size being a byproduct of a measurable metric. That would be a good metric actually because you've got a decent amount of space in your shop but
Challenges in Custom Spring Sourcing
00:09:08
Speaker
you've spread out, you've filled it out. I don't want to be frivolous with it.
00:09:13
Speaker
Exactly, right? But I just don't think I would, I don't think I would, if you would automate for almost any part, and that's the caveat, but for almost any part, you would rather have it on an automated positional machine than on the automated three axis because of the one and done nature. I mean, the generally point of automation is to either separate from labor or run longer, et cetera, all things that speak directly to the five axis stuff.
00:09:44
Speaker
Yeah. Well, the footprint of an MX330 with a 10-pilot changer and 90 tools is not a heck of a lot bigger than my Maury. Isn't that insane? Isn't that crazy? It's deeper, but it's not. It's the same width. Actually, it's funny. All these machines, I wonder... I've never asked a machine tool designer this, but I wonder if
00:10:06
Speaker
This is somewhat intentional because they are so darn deep. And I wonder if it's because if they did it the other way, we would think the machine is bigger. But I mean, you look at some of these machines, they're significantly deeper than they are wide with castings and systems and coolants and filters and pumps. It's alarming. Whereas a VMC is wider than it is deep. Yes, absolutely. Right. Yeah.
00:10:35
Speaker
Cool. Any other gold nuggets that you extracted from the trip? They are letting us film, which is super cool. We did some looked at some other actually looked at horizontals more, which I have never done.
00:10:50
Speaker
seriously in terms of trying to think if I were buying one, getting smarter, excuse me. And then got to hang out with a couple of fans of the channel who were actually there to basically buy finalized POs. So we were actually able to film a little of that too, but to talk to somebody who's going through the buying process
00:11:13
Speaker
It's just another level of richness behind the thought and the decision-making and what's driving it, which is really, really fun. That's a really good perspective to the whole show is the other customer perspective. Obviously, it's easy to share yours, but to share other people's. I like that.
00:11:35
Speaker
What's going on with you? Yeah.
Progress on Pen Project
00:11:37
Speaker
I was reading, uh, I guess some article, I think it was citizen laid. They had a big open house somewhere and they sold like 77 machines at that open house. And I'm like, holy cow. Like it'd be cool to talk to some of those buyers. Right. Yeah. Yesterday. So I've been working tons on this pen project. We're calling it the saga, which is like a, you know, Viking word for story and tail and all that. And I thought it was a sweet idea. You know, write your saga.
00:12:05
Speaker
and it suits so well. So, you know, you take apart any pen and there's the spring and the tip, right?
00:12:14
Speaker
So I kind of had in my mind, oh, it'd be pretty easy to just look online and find a ballpoint pen spring. But then I start taking apart all the ones that I have here on the desk, cheap ones, nice ones, and they're all different. Like 17,000 wire, 20,000 wire, one inch long, five or seven, eight inch long. And like, no, I can't just assume that something I order off the shelf is going to be what I need. So I found that my favorite one
00:12:37
Speaker
And there's a local spring making company that has been around, I'm going to have to ask them, but probably since the 60s. And it was a kind of a magical experience to walk in there yesterday. And I took our new guy Sky with me. And it was like walking into a museum like the office hasn't changed since the 90s.
00:12:58
Speaker
There's still an old Windows 98 computer with a CRT monitor and ledgers on the wall and old guy, 80 years old or whatever, coming up and knows everything. It was really fascinating. They were down for lunch, so nothing was happening, but I convinced them to let us walk around real quick and show the shop.
00:13:18
Speaker
and all the machineries like good quality old stuff that's just it's been it's been working fine why would you need anything new in spring making you don't really need cnc not for like a simple spring right so why change anything it was it was weird right that's awesome and they're gonna make the spring a custom spring for your pen
00:13:39
Speaker
Yep. So I found my favorite one and I brought it in. I'm like this. I need this and then I need another version that's a little bit shorter. Here's all the specs. I need the shorter one to be the same spring rate as the longer one so that they feel the same.
00:13:54
Speaker
And so he worked out the math and he's like, okay, the one you want is 20 thou and the new one's going to have to be 18 thou wire to feel the same. And I'm like, sweet, that sounds perfect. Let's do it. And I asked, are they going to be 10 cents each, a dollar each, $10 each? I have no idea. So he priced it out and it'll be like a dollar each for a 200 piece quantity, which is fine. $200 and you have custom springs. That's amazing.
00:14:20
Speaker
Exactly. Right. It's not even an issue. And then at a thousand quantity, they go down to 30 cents each. So it's like, it's perfect. Right. And it's local and it's, it's quality. And like, I asked him, I'm like, maybe in a future order, do you think we can come back and kind of film the process? And he's like, well, if you want to, I guess I'm right. I love it. I'm a poor, hilarious.
00:14:44
Speaker
Right. So I'm going to mic him up and he's going to just rant about his passion and his lifelong pursuit. And it's going to be beautiful. Um, yeah. So I'm pumped about that. Yep. Yeah. So we're, uh,
00:15:01
Speaker
I want to bring as many pens to Blade Show, which is like three weeks away, as humanly possible. I have three, three finished prototypes now. Version one, which kind of sucks now, version two, I have two of them and they're getting pretty darn good.
00:15:18
Speaker
My tools finally came in yesterday to make my pocket clip, which is this crazy lathe idea that I've had for a long time. I'm going to mill the entire pocket clip on the lathe in one operation. Oh my God, hilarious. It's going to be just epic. Are you using the tail stock as a support or the sub as a tail stock support?
00:15:43
Speaker
Yes ish. I got this really cool hard hinge inside gripping call it that's going to go into the clip because the clip will be turned as a round profile and then mill away everything that's not a clip. Right. So sweet. I haven't even I have the idea in my head and I know I can do it, but I haven't quite cammed it up yet. But I'll be doing that in the next few days. So we had to take
00:16:12
Speaker
the first few days of this week to make knife stuff. And I'm like, I want to make pen stuff. Knife stuff is boring. But OK, fine. We need it. So we should have enough knife stuff now till June. And yeah, June. And then I can spend the rest of the month just cranking out pen stuff. So I can make sure I have all the materials. I have all the tooling. I have everything I need. I get the springs. And there are 15 components that go into this pen. That's a lot. And eight of them are custom made right here in the shop.
00:16:42
Speaker
So I guess I'm surprised it's not more, 100%. You're not making the pen itself, right? The ink tube. You're right. So you buy the tube. I'm getting the spring custom made. There's another spring. There's two springs in the pen. The other one is a wave spring from Smalley that's going to be off the shelf from them. So I'm trying to overnight. I ordered 200, and they're like, we only have 90 in stock. And I'm like, what? No.
00:17:12
Speaker
Okay. How about, how about 90 of those and like 150 of this one. And then it should be good. And then make sure you have enough later when I come back. So there's that there's three ceramic ball bearings that go into it. So I'm kind of cheating and counting that as three parts. And then what else? What else? Yeah, the ink and there's a C clip that I get from McMaster. And I think that's it. Sorry. When you, when you said,
00:17:38
Speaker
The way you said it, I was thinking you were using off-the-shelf pen products in your pen. You're using stuff that maybe, I even hate to tempt you, maybe you will end up making your own springs one day, but that's not something you need. No, these are like basic off-the-shelf components, like a C-clip, a spring, a ball bearing, everything that looks made. Yeah, but you don't make the...
00:18:02
Speaker
Pelican case that the Norseman goes into and that's okay. I don't want to give you any ideas. Oh Totally. I've been tempted but then I you know 30 seconds later. I'm like god. That's stupid. Just don't even yes, I Still gonna figure out packaging for the pen. I might I might just go super lame and do nothing for blade show like just bring pins and
00:18:26
Speaker
Eventually, of course, we're going to need something. I saw a picture online of its sweet little Pelican case that would fit the pen perfectly. It's like long and oval, but I'm like, you know, honestly, the point of this, like we want to make 10,000 pens or something. I don't know if I want to buy and sell and put into the world 10,000 plastic cases that are not going to be used super well. You know, it's like it's a lot of waste.
00:18:51
Speaker
If somebody chooses not to use it, then a really nicely done paper packaging can just be recycled. I think that's a merit. In the price point, I was going to ask, I assume it's very different than a knife price point. Yeah. I mean, I still got to work out all the pricing, so this is totally preliminary. It might change, but I'm benchmarking a $200 price. I was going to say under 200, but okay, sure.
00:19:18
Speaker
The other thing to think about is the post office has gotten more strict about what they consider a, I think it's called a padded envelope.
00:19:28
Speaker
There's a thick envelope option, but it's not meant to be like objects. So I think their point is you could probably put a pen in there, but don't put a pen that's in a one-inch protective sleeve tube or something because now it's really a parcel, not an envelope. So something to think about if you go with more non-Canada shipping, I would think maybe way to keep good rates on, like you said, a really nice but then recyclable type packaging.
00:19:57
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I know here, I'll have to go to the post office and talk to them. But I think if it'll fit through the mail slot, which is I think half an inch, or maybe three quarters of an inch, it'll pass. But
00:20:11
Speaker
realistically, it'll probably have to be a parcel and it'll cost, you know, $5 to $12 or whatever to ship. Would there be a way to ship it in like a lay down, like in a foam with the pen laying down, but then have that piece of foam have the, or whatever that medium is, maybe it's a different material, have it have the say Grimsmo logo on it, have a business card holder slot in it. And then that the packaging becomes part of the product on my desk.
00:20:40
Speaker
Oh, interesting. Oh, I didn't think about that. So like a, a place to play, but on display style shipping that also you is functional as the end user. That's interesting. I'll have to consider that. Uh,
00:20:59
Speaker
Yeah, it sounds like more of a long-term like, I don't need to do that in the next week, but absolutely long-term. And actually I've got your voice in my head from a couple of weeks ago and you're like, keep in mind the Norseman was not perfect on the first one and it evolved and the pen has to evolve too.
Continuous Improvement in Product Development
00:21:17
Speaker
And so I am keeping that in mind. And things like the packaging might slip at first so that we can get the pen out and then do better later. John, it's not even that. You're beating yourself up. Go back to Jay Pearson. It's constant improvement. You're not
00:21:35
Speaker
You are. I know you. You're never going to your audiences. You're not going to release a piece of junk just to pocket a few bucks. Right. So stop saying you stop feeling like you live it. You're living in a world of compromise and recognize it's always going to get better. I bet you you're going to change something on the Norseman or on the Rask later. That's going to even further. It doesn't doesn't make today's knife less valuable or interesting or quality.
00:22:02
Speaker
Yep. And that's, that's the direction we're going. And it's like, uh, you do the best you can at the time that you're ready to, and then you do it again tomorrow and you gain skill and you get better and better and better. And it never stops. It's, that's exactly how I love it. So if folks go to knife show, are they going to be able to possibly purchase a few pens, preparatory pen purchase PPP? Exactly right.
00:22:31
Speaker
Yeah, I'm super excited. I haven't figured out yet. The knife shows are crazy. We have a good following in the knife industry. And if we just say it's available, we'll have a lineup of people before we even get there.
00:22:47
Speaker
So we've been doing these lotteries for the knives. You put in your phone number and your name, and we literally pull it out of a hat, text you, come in 30 minutes, and you can get it. That's awesome. You can buy it like that. And we might have to do that for the pens, too, depending on the kind of volume that we bring. So yeah. That's great. Keep this in mind, though. I think you're
00:23:10
Speaker
I just, when I saw, if you folks listening haven't watched it, go on Gromsmo's Instagram. First of all, if you listen to this podcast and you don't follow John Gromo's Instagram, I'm not sure what to say, but that mechanism. Oh, and what was up with that other guy? I kind of freaked out for a second when I saw the Fisher Knives, is that his name? Yeah.
00:23:34
Speaker
Somebody else had a mechanism that I thought looked very similar to Grimsmose. I think it's a very unique mechanism with that sort of sleeve collar that resets it. I sent it to John because I was like, uh-oh, is this one of those corporate espionage things or is it just bad timing where two people have come up with a similar thing? It was you the whole time? It's Angelo that works for us. Oh my God.
00:24:02
Speaker
That's embarrassing Okay, I didn't understand I thought like you sent me that and I thought you were like, oh he's leaking it early like you got to squash that leak and Sorry, you thought it was I knew I had followed him I didn't I thought he was an independent knife maker as his profile sort of shows. So I'm thinking I'm thinking uh-oh Okay, got it. Well, that's that's much nothing from
00:24:31
Speaker
Well, so that does bring up a funny point. The mechanism used in this pen is fairly unique, certainly in the pen world. And I'm hesitant to share too much. I'd love to just bust into CAD and be like, all right, here's how we did it. And here's obviously showing the drawings and all that. But I'm like, that kind of lets out the secret sauce a little bit. So I'm just going to have to be a little careful. Well, let's let the secret. Let's let folks simmer on it for a while. Have some fun with it.
00:25:01
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. But I do want to be relatively open and transparent and show the coolness behind it, because that's who I am. And honestly, it's a complicated mechanism. That's the beauty of it. You're executing on it. This isn't something that's going to necessarily be. I mean, let's be honest. No one wants to hear this. But if it's that great and it honestly looks that great, you're going to get copied. You're going to get copied by.
00:25:28
Speaker
you know, quote unquote friends and you're going to get copied by Asia or other countries that choose to produce these things and leverage off the work of others. Tough. Your job now is to execute on it and you will. Exactly.
00:25:44
Speaker
Yep. And truth be told, I am borrowing this idea, the concept from another manufacturing company, kind of local to us actually, that made a series of promotional pens. Like they make tank parts and they're like, let's use this coupler on a pen. So they actually came up with this idea. I met some of the guys and they only give away these pens to their dealers and suppliers and
00:26:08
Speaker
vendors and all that stuff. They don't sell them as market, right? So I got my hands on one and I've been in contact with the guys and I'm like, Oh, I make them my own version just to like, just to make it clear that I'm not, you know, secretly trying to rip you off. I'm just giving you props. And I actually lost one of their Springs. So I just emailed them the other day and like,
00:26:26
Speaker
Is it possible to get another spring? Because I want to show this on video. I want to show the roots. I want to show your design. And then I want to show my design and the evolution and like, you know, give you props because last thing I want to know or I want to do is, you know, piss them off and have them think that I'm trying to espionage them or something like that. You know, awesome, dude. Yeah, so it's it's awesome. And man, we're just so busy and so
00:26:53
Speaker
great and you know I was talking with my mom who I talk to every Sunday and she lives across the country and she always asks you know how you doing and how's business and how's life and how the kids and all that and I'm like you know what I'm I'm not stressed at this point in life I was even weeks or months ago but now I'm just like
00:27:14
Speaker
I'm pretty good. You know, I'm busy. I'm busier than ever, but I'm not worried or stressed or down good. So that's kind of cool. You know, I'm happy for you. Really? That's awesome. Yeah. Well, I'm gonna go to this big Kaiser breakfast. I went yesterday. They're next door to DMG and I have there's a really good
00:27:34
Speaker
presentation on tool holders and I want to figure out a way to relay that information that we learned on. I don't know if it's going to be a video or what but I'm starting to appreciate everything other than the machine tool more like the cutting tools themselves, the work holding and then you know things like the coolant. So the other thing I want to go look at is a very much a preparatory, what are we calling this preparatory purchase but
00:28:01
Speaker
No, no interest. It's like, it's like a inverted preparatory purchase. I want to just learn about this that I'm prepared if and when I purchase it, um, onto the Spironi toolsetters. What's
Interest in Spironi Tool Pre-setters
00:28:13
Speaker
a Spironi? A tool pre-center. Okay. I never heard of Spironi. Is that a brand? Okay. Um, like Zoeller is one that keeps coming up in my head. I think Hymer's got them too. Yup. Yup. They are really cool.
00:28:30
Speaker
Yeah, it's been tickling at me too and Angelo has used them before and I'm starting to warm up to it, you know, get the concept. I mean, they're not cheap, like probably 15, $20,000 or something, but eventually.
00:28:46
Speaker
Yeah. Well, more to come on that. Awesome. Happy for you. Wednesday to three weeks. Okay. Yeah. So I'll talk to you next month. Next Wednesday. Awesome. Take care. Sounds good.