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#422 AI vs search engines
0 Playsin 1 day
- I vs We in business
- Dave Precise: "The best decision is the one that will let you make the next decision faster"
- AI vs search engines
- 5 axis work
- Vapor honing
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Transcript
Introductions and Summer Schedule
00:00:01
John
Good morning. Welcome to the Business of Machine, episode number 422. My name is John Saunders.
00:00:07
johngrimsmo
And my name is John Grimsmo.
00:00:10
John
And John and i talk each week about, well, usually each week, but we've had some summer schedules. So we've been on and off some in July, but about life and and machine shop and shop ownership and all that. So...
00:00:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's all interrelated, you know.
00:00:24
John
um It is. Yes. I
Owner-Operated vs. Managed Businesses
00:00:28
John
think I have seen continuing the theme that you and I have talked about a lot over the years of owner operated and owner founded business versus businesses that you step into or acquire the kind of proverbial um contractor example I've used before, like business pay me road paid, whatever.
00:00:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah, true.
00:00:46
John
um The more I've seen of other examples of people, the more I realize a, mix of good and bad ways how intimately we are involved in our businesses. you know
00:00:59
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:01:00
John
um The idea that to to speak our language, the idea of looking at a a team of people you could have in in your own company. You could have kind of like a project manager, and engineer, and a a floor guy or machinist, whatever you want to call them, a cam guy and say, Hey, the four of you get together.
00:01:17
John
i want you to go to DMG innovation days or IMTS or Hermla open house. I want you to look at those
00:01:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
Delegation and Team Collaboration
00:01:23
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:01:23
John
machines, come to me with, come to me with a proposal.
00:01:25
John
We'll all agree together. um And then, you know, Steve, you take care of fixed rings. Joe, you take care of ordering clamps and material. And then um Fred, you get to, you know, design a part for the runoff.
00:01:38
John
Like that whole idea of just like letting that run is really cool. It's just not, it's not, it's not what that we've ever done. I don't know that we actually should say we might. Yeah.
00:01:47
johngrimsmo
You're on your way. And i yeah hearing you say that, I am well on my way to there too. um
00:01:52
John
yeah
00:01:53
johngrimsmo
But we've we've earned that over the past 10 years of doing all of those things ourselves. um
00:01:59
John
Well, that's the question is, does doing ourselves make us feel more that we are qualified, capable and selfishly just not going to forfeit that because it is awkward versus the whole like, what do you mean?
00:02:07
johngrimsmo
Sure. ah we We had to.
00:02:11
johngrimsmo
We had to do it for up until now.
00:02:13
John
Oh, yes.
00:02:14
johngrimsmo
starting the company ourselves and needing to know everything about everything.
00:02:15
John
well
00:02:19
johngrimsmo
um We've had to get very, very, very good about all of those things. And now, as my team is growing and maturing, and I can see it in each of the guys, they're they're getting a bit hungrier, they want to do more, they want to help more.
00:02:29
John
Yeah.
00:02:30
johngrimsmo
um Some of them have experience from previous jobs that they're not fully utilizing here.
00:02:35
John
Yeah. 100%.
00:02:35
johngrimsmo
And they're, they're um in a good way, not hesitant to remind me that they can do stuff. And I'm like, right, yes, of course. Go for it. Go
From Personal Project to Collective Effort
00:02:45
johngrimsmo
nuts. Check in if you need me. I'm here.
00:02:47
johngrimsmo
um Which is good, because they're running with various projects that I don't need to be involved with. And you know I could, but I got other stuff to do.
00:02:56
John
hundred hundred I think on the biggest items, which is sort of top of mind for me, you know, if we were buying a true machine tool or if you were going to buy another current or brother, I don't think I know.
00:03:08
johngrimsmo
right
00:03:11
johngrimsmo
Yeah, would you let somebody else run with that?
00:03:13
John
Well, yet. Yeah, exactly. Like, right.
00:03:16
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:17
John
Also because we we just enjoy it, but,
00:03:18
johngrimsmo
I could see myself getting there, but I'm certainly not there yet.
00:03:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, and it's in in some way, it's our money.
00:03:25
John
um
00:03:27
johngrimsmo
I mean, it's company. Like our company is becoming its own company, not just the John and Eric show, um which is an interesting way to look at it, both financially, but also entity wise and image recognition wise and all that stuff.
00:03:37
John
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:03:44
johngrimsmo
And I'm, I'm spent the past probably five years trying to separate myself in a way from the vision, vision of the company, the image, how it's perceived by our staff and by our customers.
00:03:56
johngrimsmo
And,
Building an Independent Brand Identity
00:03:57
johngrimsmo
uh, It kind of started with something you kind of got me onto was splitting your inbox from the personal email to the work email.
00:04:03
John
minister
00:04:04
johngrimsmo
And I'm i'm probably eighty twenty now. Like work emails are actually my work email. Maybe 20% still come in my personal. But yeah. I
00:04:14
John
we say that very first part you just said there again like rewind two sentences where like I've tried a long time to or tried a lot to separate like right before that yeah
00:04:17
johngrimsmo
don't remember.
00:04:23
johngrimsmo
So, I mean, this company started as John Grimsmo Knives. That was our operating name. And then we incorporated in 2015, so that was 10 years ago, um as a numbered company operating as Grimsmo Knives.
00:04:36
johngrimsmo
And it's kind of this, it's more of a mental shift in my brain to view the company Grimsmo as not my company, but the company.
00:04:36
John
yeah
00:04:49
John
who
00:04:49
johngrimsmo
um as its own lifeblood breathing thing. Whereas where I mean, I can not show up for a day or a week and everything pretty much happens.
00:05:01
johngrimsmo
And I'm less directly involved in all things than I certainly used to be. And yeah, I don't know. It's it's It's the way it's phrased.
00:05:12
johngrimsmo
It's the I versus we, or we versus I
00:05:14
John
Yeah. it is
Fostering Collaborative Growth
00:05:15
johngrimsmo
kind of mentality shift, right?
00:05:17
johngrimsmo
And it took me kind of a lot of years to get that. you know you' You've been saying that for many years, like we did this, even when it was just you. And now I've shifted my language to say, we as a company are doing this thing instead of going, I'm doing this thing.
00:05:30
johngrimsmo
Does that make sense?
00:05:31
John
Oh, yeah. I don't know if that's... Yeah, no, does. I don't know that... I mean, there are points time where maybe on paper, I could argue I was further than you or you were further than me.
00:05:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah, but...
00:05:39
John
But, like, I don't think we were that far off ever. So I think of that may just be that I use different words than you.
00:05:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
00:05:45
John
Hmm.
00:05:46
johngrimsmo
But it kind of it hit me because you using those words before I did kind of encouraged me in a subtle way to um see things differently, you know, and in in our team meetings, you know, it's very much a we culture now, not a I need you to do this or I, you know,
00:05:46
John
Yeah.
00:05:53
John
o
00:06:03
johngrimsmo
I have this vision.
00:06:03
John
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:06:04
johngrimsmo
um I'm trying to pick from other people and and make sure that this is a collaborative growth effort, um not just me standing on top, you know, barking orders.
00:06:15
John
yeah
00:06:15
johngrimsmo
That's not what I do anyway. But um and a lot of that is because I don't, I want to communicate better. And if I have all the ideas and the vision and the passion stuck in my head and I don't communicate it properly, then it's still me silently leading the ship and being disappointed when everybody else doesn't do what I didn't tell them to do.
00:06:39
John
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:06:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:06:41
John
This is such a cliche thing, but communication is so key. And
The Importance of Communication
00:06:44
John
sometimes this is a Dale Carnegie-esque thing of like, some people may not um want to agree or push back or there's all kinds of like sort of ah work environment tensions that can come out of stuff.
00:06:44
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:06:56
John
But at the end of the day, if you sort of convey, hey, the reason we have this rule or process or system or machine or check in place is because ultimately, you know we care about being the leader in high-end EDC knives. We take such pride in it.
00:07:11
John
And it may seem silly to clip the zip tie off below the collar when you're going to the deburr machine. But reality is when we don't do that, it can make up something.
00:07:20
johngrimsmo
yeah yeah
00:07:21
John
and you kind of explain it that way. And then um and sometimes there's some undertones are like, I shouldn't have to explain this because if we create a rule, it's for a good reason. But the reality is just bring everybody on the page.
00:07:30
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. More of that. Exactly.
00:07:33
John
the What you just said there really... triggered an AI comment I want to make. I'm going to hold off on that. I'll make a note AI to chew on.
00:07:45
John
Because even, so it's obviously buying machine tools is quite lumpy and um involves awkward other things like maybe selling a machine or rigging and and capital and loans. But like um even just taking a step further that we're starting to do of Hey, let's get a group together.
00:08:06
John
And I want to redesign a fixture for this process. Here's the kind of start and end goal. Here's the product. Here's what's key.
00:08:11
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:08:12
John
Everybody, you know, come up with a couple ideas or come with a test idea.
Empowering Team Initiatives
00:08:17
John
I'm starting to go back to this idea of, um of getting a five axis again, like a higher end one that can accomplish a lot of stuff.
00:08:26
John
I don't, I can't put it all together. I'm not sure i would want to talk about on the air because I want to have more of my own confidence or conviction, I should say, but, um,
00:08:29
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:08:35
John
you know, sort of handing that off and really being more of a quarterback with a true cliche.
00:08:41
johngrimsmo
It might surprise you.
00:08:43
John
Oh yeah, no, we can do this. And we do do it on some other stuff. I just mean de novo idea of really enabling the team, giving them more responsibility, expectations and kind of measured results as well.
00:08:52
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:08:56
John
Not just, it's cause it's not just for their benefit, it's for the company's benefit, which means you've got to, you know, anyway.
00:08:56
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:09:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah, what you were saying earlier, kind of, i was thinking that yesterday was the, you know, sit down in a room with four or five guys and be like, here's my start and end goal.
00:09:14
johngrimsmo
And this is what I need. This is what I hope to achieve from it. You guys figure it out. Because i think personally, I love the unknown challenge of figuring something out, doing all the research, figuring out all the possibilities, looking at all the variables, figuring out all the design, all the cam, all I love all that stuff.
00:09:19
John
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:09:31
johngrimsmo
I am not scalable. and to pass off those kind of projects to the team and let them grow and get excited and be, you know, do it to the people that really want those kind of challenges.
00:09:42
John
the
00:09:43
johngrimsmo
And then it's, as you know, it's not difficult to look at somebody's um solution and be like, that's not going to work, but good job, like tweak this and you're good.
00:09:54
John
mean
00:09:54
johngrimsmo
You know what i mean? Or like, I didn't think about that, but that's going to function perfectly.
00:09:56
John
Yeah.
00:09:58
johngrimsmo
Like, good job. um
00:10:01
John
Yes, for sure.
00:10:01
johngrimsmo
and And that it grows everybody and it gives us time to go off and do other things. And yeah, I want more of that in my life. Because I can I can imagine ah a goal like a vision like I want this to do this.
00:10:11
John
Even as...
00:10:16
johngrimsmo
Figure it out.
00:10:19
John
Yes. ah Yes, agree. Even as simple as ordering material, which we've gotten so good at because of how easy Lex makes it, but it's like, hold on, now we need new material.
00:10:25
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:10:29
John
So like, hey, do you go Albro? Do you go specialty supplier? Do you just do McMaster for now? um I'm a little bit of a...
00:10:38
johngrimsmo
A snob for that.
00:10:38
John
I'm a very...
00:10:39
johngrimsmo
Like you're.
00:10:40
John
Well, I'm a very... probably an uncooperatively anal person about risk. So in other words, if we if we prototype on McMaster, um but we're going to order production from Penn Stainless, even if you match the grade of seventeen four h nine hundred I view that as risk because you're switching from supplier A to supplier B. There could be changes in how it turns, magnetism, heat treat, and it may not be substantial risk, but it's risk that we need to be aware of.
00:11:10
John
And so you got to think about that. Do we pay more or do we order do we call our supplier rep at Penn and say, hey, tell do whatever you need to do to get me three three drops because I need to test with your...
00:11:20
johngrimsmo
We just did this.
00:11:22
John
Is that right?
00:11:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah. So for a button material, we've been trying a bunch of stuff. I did my whole deep dive of research and I came up with some things and then Angela went on a whole deep dive bouncing off of where I left off.
00:11:33
johngrimsmo
And he came up with this material. Have you ever heard of the company Zapp? Z-A-P-P?
00:11:38
John
No.
00:11:38
johngrimsmo
um um i think I think they're manufactured, but they have distribution in the U.S., and they make a lot of the big um um stainless steels, I think. I don't know. I haven't looked into it, but Angelo's told me. Anyway, so we found 420 stainless steel, which is a variant of 440 and 400 series, um also called S90V in the knife world, and CTS-20P or something also in the knife world.
00:11:57
John
Okay.
00:12:00
johngrimsmo
It's all the same thing. And so anyway, he found ah the supplier's app, which is made in Germany, I believe, but distributed to the US. s And for it to be imported from Germany to the US is tariffed.
00:12:13
johngrimsmo
And then from the US to Canada is tariffed again, I believe.
00:12:15
John
ah
00:12:17
johngrimsmo
So we're like, we just get it straight from Germany, because that would be amazing. Anyway, they had some stock in the US wherever they are. And they sent us like a two foot chunk of this 5 8 material, um kind of on the house as like an experiment.
00:12:31
John
Yeah.
00:12:32
johngrimsmo
And we're like, sweet, that's all we need. And we'll turn it down to the 3 8ths we need because that's we don't need 5 8ths.
00:12:36
John
Wait.
00:12:37
johngrimsmo
um So that gave Jeff a little project to kind of dual spindle hold it in the Nakamura and turn it down because we don't have a live center dead center.
00:12:43
John
Huh.
00:12:47
johngrimsmo
So he turned a little bit.
00:12:48
John
Mm-hmm.
00:12:48
johngrimsmo
He moved the bar into the sub spindle and then he gripped it on both sides and then he turned another three inches and then manually slid it over.
00:12:54
John
That's awesome.
00:12:55
johngrimsmo
And he said it worked great. And now he can run in the Swiss. It's like not perfect, but for testing.
00:12:59
John
Yeah, right.
00:13:00
johngrimsmo
You know, it's like, um actually, this is a good point. So I listened to the Dave Precise with Intolerance podcast.
00:13:07
John
as den i
00:13:07
johngrimsmo
yeah And I listened to yours. And um Dave said something really interesting. And I'm going to butcher the paraphrase, but I've been thinking about it a lot. In these kind of situations, like what is the best decision?
00:13:20
johngrimsmo
And basically, he said, the best decision is the one that's going to let you make your next
AI in Manufacturing Decisions
00:13:24
johngrimsmo
decision faster.
00:13:25
John
Quicker, yeah.
00:13:26
johngrimsmo
And was like,
00:13:26
John
But Dave is such an extreme of like, just go, go, go.
00:13:28
johngrimsmo
It is. It is. And it's interesting. But in that case, in this case, with the bigger material, if we get it, we can turn it down in less than a day. And then we can have our answer, is this going to work within like two, three days?
00:13:41
John
Yeah.
00:13:41
johngrimsmo
Versus we can have them drop ship it to our grinding company. They can send us grind the bar down. We'll have it in two weeks. And then we don't have an answer to will this work or not for another two weeks.
00:13:50
John
Yep.
00:13:51
johngrimsmo
And in ah in to a certain extent, cost regardless. um you know answer the question quickly so that we can move on and you know not wait on this longer.
00:14:04
johngrimsmo
So I thought that was interesting.
00:14:04
John
Sort of a detail. Actually, we should come back to the Dave Precise episode. Or Dave, what's his name?
00:14:10
johngrimsmo
Dave Precise, that's his name.
00:14:11
John
Sorry. <unk> I think there's some attempt to like maintain separation of church and state there that we we're blowing through right now.
00:14:14
johngrimsmo
Lou.
00:14:20
John
um great Great individual, great story. Dylan does a great... really enjoy a lot of the Dylan podcast.
00:14:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:27
John
The... I lost my train thought. Dave Precise, go fast. I don't remember. Sorry.
00:14:35
John
I forgot. I lost it.
00:14:36
johngrimsmo
yeah Just making decisions, moving on.
00:14:39
John
Oh yes, that was my side topic. So that occur has occurred a bit with Johnny Five because um and coming along great. We actually just launched a video this morning on using a 3D printed fixture to quickly fix some sheet metal holes.
00:14:55
John
And I think it was a wholesomely, genuinely good video because it really was representative of the situation at hand. They were ah parts of his forearm. So it's I think 16th inch, maybe eighth inch thick sheet metal.
00:15:08
John
only about four or five inches long and getting three brand new ones made from send cut send was $7 each. So $21 I would have had this problem fixed.
00:15:18
John
So, you know, you, you and I, and our listeners are well aware that in a machine shop of any means, there's really no argument for, for in-house DIY repairing something when you can have a brand new version for $21, except the problem with Johnny five is you could make an argument that if you,
00:15:19
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:15:37
John
you handle everything that way, you'll never get hit done because send cut send it's 21 bucks with their normal, which is still super fat.
00:15:38
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:15:45
John
I love this. Like I can't say enough good things about it, but still it's a week to get it done or even more. Um, and I need that part done so I can fit the next thing. So when i fit the next thing that way, can figure out what screw or part I don't have that I need to make, rent, buy, et cetera.
00:15:59
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:15:59
John
Um, and same thing like, you know, I have four 40 screws that are, uh, that are half inch long and I need seven sixteenths, I only need four of them. It's better to go out and grind them down on the belt grinder than McMaster them the next day because,
00:16:12
John
because it is death $10 purchase of McMaster.
00:16:14
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:16:15
John
Plus i I'm going to buy them.
00:16:15
johngrimsmo
kill
00:16:16
John
I'm going to store him which then takes up storage. And so that I can't bring myself to buy them and just throw them away when I'm done using the few I need. And so there is, and that there's also ah a ah identity behind it. Like,
00:16:29
John
i i do I do enjoy hanging out with people that are in this fast-paced world of like, source it, get it here as quick as you can, learn, iterate, throw it away, move on. But part of me also enjoys the sort of methodical, ah cultural side of like, hey, this is already made.
00:16:46
John
All I need to do is interpret these four holes to a different location by 50,000. And we can we can make this. And so in the video I show, we quickly printed a fixture. It's ugly. It worked great. it bolted directly into the fixture plate.
00:16:57
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:16:58
John
And the cam was done in three minutes and I was out on the machine. um And I did repair all these. i We were filming it. So maybe I'm exaggerating, but like it was for sure under 90 minutes, maybe even under an hour start to finish of like, ah sorry, not including the actual print time, but like it was, it was great.
00:17:14
johngrimsmo
Yep, that sounds off time.
00:17:15
John
it would Sorry. Yeah. but So I like, I'm okay with that. You know what i mean
00:17:19
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. And it's every situation is different. But
DIY vs. Outsourcing in Machine Shops
00:17:23
johngrimsmo
as craftsmen, as makers, as business owners, um you always weigh that make by scenario where you can't solve every problem with money, um because you'll run out of money at some point.
00:17:33
John
Yeah.
00:17:33
johngrimsmo
But But also, I mean, we love the solution. We love the figuring it out. We love spending a few hours solving this problem that's not really worth anything, but I've learned skills and now I can do it better, faster next time.
00:17:46
johngrimsmo
That's the only way we get better. If we just throw money at every single problem and learn those skills, it's
00:17:47
John
Yeah.
00:17:51
John
Yeah.
00:17:51
johngrimsmo
We are valuable in certain ways, not in others. If we DIY everything and move a snail's pace and make no money because we're spending all of our time, then you are also valuable in different ways.
00:18:01
John
yeah
00:18:05
johngrimsmo
And it's... constant battle of which is right. And there's no right answer. But um I certainly value skill and being able to solve problems. That's kind of one of my big things is being able to solve big problems.
00:18:15
John
yeah
00:18:18
johngrimsmo
And I think I need to spend my time solving bigger problems, not smaller problems.
00:18:25
John
who
00:18:25
johngrimsmo
And let let the team solve smaller problems, um because that's how I can be more valuable.
00:18:30
John
Let the team small some small solve small and big problems.
00:18:33
johngrimsmo
Absolutely. Yep.
00:18:34
John
Sorry, or be i mean I know this is super super generic here, but
00:18:34
johngrimsmo
Yep. You're right.
00:18:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:18:40
John
um hi
00:18:45
John
continue to be blown away with AI. It's
Transitioning to AI Tools
00:18:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:18:49
John
the most cliched thing to say.
00:18:50
John
and Are you using at this point?
00:18:52
johngrimsmo
yeah I'm using chat GPT not daily, but many times a week.
00:18:57
John
So it really has, to me, taken over Google. And i I think, stop me if I've said said this, but I think because I'm sort of aware of the energy cost of it, and this may maybe start to date me as well, because like when I walk around an airport and I see people on FaceTime, I'm like, they're stealing all the bandwidth, which is like,
00:19:01
johngrimsmo
Right?
00:19:13
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:19:14
John
It's probably not really an issue. um But like, you know, you and I grew up on landlines. So like cell phones are still great.
00:19:21
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:19:21
John
And so many people just have only had FaceTime. Anyway, I was hesitant to use ChatGPT with some subconscious guilt about the consumption and overkill of it.
00:19:30
johngrimsmo
Agreed. Because you see some videos and some headlines of like the amount of power it takes to run AI.
00:19:31
John
And now I
00:19:34
johngrimsmo
and It's probably a very real thing that most of us are not taking into account. Anyway, continue.
00:19:41
John
and the reality is it's just so much better than Google now. So I've basically stopped Googling for stuff.
00:19:43
johngrimsmo
right?
00:19:46
John
Um,
00:19:46
johngrimsmo
i'm I'm crossing that curve myself. And it feels weird, but it's like, it's better. Okay, explain why. And then I'll, I'll explain.
00:19:52
John
which is a This is like a huge behavior change, um sort of as another side tangent.
00:19:55
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:19:57
John
There was an article about 15 years ago the New York Times about, quote, unquote, big data and how Target had used big data to figure out when women were pregnant before they even knew they were pregnant.
00:20:08
John
This was like one of the – what's that word? Yeah. moment, not momentous, like one of those, like, I'm going to argue one of the most most important newspaper articles in the last 20 years, full stop, because they figured out big data Target did in this article before we realized what it is, because it wasn't women buying prenatal vitamins. It wasn't women buying pregnancy tests. It was like just overall purchasing patterns.
00:20:34
John
And Target got caught because they sent this ah pregnancy flyer
00:20:38
johngrimsmo
Oh, target the store.
00:20:40
John
Yeah. Sorry. The department store whatever. Yeah.
00:20:41
johngrimsmo
you know Yeah. Oh.
00:20:42
John
Walmart, Target. They sent this, uh, it's funny. They sent this flyer for, it was geared towards expecting mothers with all the stuff to this, unfortunately younger daughter who lived with her family.
00:20:54
John
And the dad was like, called the target was like, Hey, the heck are you doing sending my daughter stuff?
00:20:55
johngrimsmo
oh
00:21:00
John
Like she's expecting what ends up she was expecting. Um, And so then Target realized it's better to like intersperse this stuff so that you don't kind of out somebody.
00:21:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:21:10
John
But um the point was big data. The point was like these things that we don't even realize you do and how there's really only one time in a, in this case, female's adult life to change their buying behavior.
00:21:22
John
And that's when they're expecting. And so I bring that up not to sound corny, but because To change Grimmsmo or Saunders' use of Google is something that was basically not possible to do.
00:21:33
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:21:33
John
Like it was not, and now it has happened, which is, I think says a lot.
00:21:36
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:21:38
John
um You just get better answers and you get hallucinations, but, you also just get better.
00:21:42
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:21:43
John
The answer I want. So, um,
AI in Leadership and Communication
00:21:47
John
two things that happened that were really weird. One's not work related, but, uh, somebody I know wanted to change a haircut style and I asked if it would do it.
00:21:54
John
And it was, I was like, Hey, they think about the style of this person, of puff, celebrity or whatever which which is in uh just happens to be that and they were like yeah sure what era of that celebrity's life were you looking for it to mimic which is like an insane question and then answered it and then it took a picture of person i know and it took a picture of that celebrity's style of haircut in that era and did it like john that's nuts um But the more relevant example was I was debating or struggling on how to communicate about some work topics that you and I were just talking about.
00:22:29
John
and there's all these themes that are certainly easier to not talk about, but when it comes to leadership, expectations, communication, um responsibilities.
00:22:33
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:22:37
John
And i so I just started having a conversation with Chad about it and John, it's great.
00:22:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:22:44
John
You should try, like but off the record between you and try it.
00:22:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Oh, I have. I can't say I've had a
00:22:50
John
Okay.
00:22:52
johngrimsmo
um hypothetical conversation with chat DPT. It's more a question and answers and trying to find solutions, but not more up in the air, like help me work through this theory in my head. But I i should do that.
00:23:06
johngrimsmo
um Yeah.
00:23:08
John
Well, to keep it like vague, I think for appropriate reasons, like let's just say we're coaching a high school sports teams.
00:23:13
johngrimsmo
OK.
00:23:14
John
Like, hey, just just log on to chat and be like, hey, um the I'm the assistant coach. I don't want to step on the coach's toes, but I've got three players ah on my defense ah that show up, but they're just too quick to to goof off or they want to be on their fight whatever, they make up something.
00:23:30
John
And it's like, what are a couple different ways that I can get through to them?
00:23:30
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:23:33
John
I've already said something once. I don't want to threaten them. um You know, I'm 42, they're 17. seventeen So I know there may be like, and you don't have to obviously just do what it says, but you can quickly evaluate its ideas.
00:23:47
John
And I find it to be very, very refreshing to just as a bouncing board.
00:23:50
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And you can you can lead it into a kind of the direction you want, depending on the next questions and prompts.
00:23:56
John
yeah
00:23:58
johngrimsmo
But that's fantastic. So I've been using it as a replacement of Google, not for a lot of things. But the thing is, over the past 20 years of you and I using Google or whatever, we've gotten to a certain level of goodness of asking a good question that you're
00:24:16
John
to
00:24:17
johngrimsmo
or the right search words that will give you kind of what you want. But if you're looking for, you can't just ask Google a question anymore. You want to search for search terms.
00:24:29
johngrimsmo
It's like, I'm forgetting how I used to use Google.
00:24:30
John
You don't yet. Yeah, right.
00:24:33
johngrimsmo
Whereas with Chat2PT, I can literally give it a paragraph with every every talking point I can possibly think of as I was at out as i would ask you a question.
00:24:33
John
Sure.
00:24:42
johngrimsmo
Hey, John, I'm looking for a stainless steel that will work with this button. and I need it to be so hard. I need it to be you know tough, stainless, wear resistant. And I've used this, I've used this, I've tried this, it's not working. Here are my send.
00:24:54
John
Yeah.
00:24:55
johngrimsmo
And that leads you down a wonderful rabbit hole of ideas and theories and bounce bounce ideas off of. It's like having a conversation with somebody who mostly knows what they're talking about.
00:25:05
johngrimsmo
And you can't trust everything blindly, but i know it's like most people.
00:25:09
John
Yeah. Which is like most people, if you're not on the phone with Robin Ranzetti, the person basically might be making up a quarter. like No, but,
00:25:18
johngrimsmo
you think Do you think chat could mimic Rob Nervansetti?
00:25:22
John
and if he's put out enough. I don't know.
00:25:24
johngrimsmo
He's got a lot of YouTube videos.
00:25:24
John
it's a good question.
00:25:25
johngrimsmo
I don't there's not i don't know if he has enough style to like impersonate.
00:25:26
John
No, i mean, no.
00:25:31
johngrimsmo
don't know.
00:25:32
John
And I don't want to be blindly drunk on AI. I also recognize the horrible, horrible, horrible,
00:25:35
johngrimsmo
Come on away.
00:25:38
John
longer term or maybe medium term outcome that these LLMs are based on internet content, which now that we're starting to create more content, you end up with this feedback loop that's a downward spiral that kind of feels like WALL-E where we're all just fat bloated, dumb people that are on a cruise ship without any ability to like repair parts on our own.
00:25:49
johngrimsmo
and
00:25:54
johngrimsmo
ye
00:25:58
John
um But for now, it's pretty, pretty great.
00:26:00
johngrimsmo
yep Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, I mean, you have young kids, I have young kids who are not using AI, but, you know, probably will. And certainly Clara's just finished grade nine. a lot of kids in her class used it. She used it a little bit for various projects and just thinking ideas and research and things like that. But,
AI's Impact on Research and Education
00:26:18
johngrimsmo
um,
00:26:19
johngrimsmo
because you and I grew up on search engines and Google, it's like you click in some keywords and then you open up 50 tabs and you just start pumping through them one by one, looking through the whole article or website or whatever for the thing you're looking for.
00:26:29
John
Yeah.
00:26:34
johngrimsmo
And you close, no, next, okay, no, not that, Reddit, everything. And that leads to a certain level of um discernment where we can, you know, whereas ChatGPT just gives you the answer.
00:26:47
John
yeah
00:26:48
johngrimsmo
And if you just walk away blindly trusting it, you haven't A, put in the work and you you haven't like seen what other sources are saying about it. And my wife as a historian kind of hates it because she's like, it's just wrong.
00:27:01
John
Oh, sure.
00:27:04
johngrimsmo
Everything about it is wrong.
00:27:07
John
And I find myself in that position of wholeheartedly understanding that side. Like, really, like, I ah care about that side. I care about the intelligence of this global civilization as well as our country.
00:27:22
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:27:22
John
But I also, out in the back, like, sorry.
00:27:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's not it's not going back in the bag.
00:27:28
John
Well, here's the one, another example of this is from a friend that totally blew me away. um We're in New York this week, China, like half chilling. He was leaving the city. He missed his train and he was, he wasn't going home. He was going to meet some friends.
00:27:43
John
And so he wasn't his normal train route out of the city. Missed the train, took a picture of the departure board and says, I'm trying to get to a bit Harrison. I don't know where he was going.
00:27:52
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:53
John
Try to get to Harrison. I just missed my train. What's my next best option? And it looked at all the departures. and it was like, if you take this train and get off, you're only a $7 Uber away once you get there. Immediate.
00:28:03
John
Versus like trying to be like, I don't know where i'm going.
00:28:04
johngrimsmo
That's insane.
00:28:06
John
i don't know what the next best option is. Do I wait 40 minutes for the next train out of here? Like, freaking incredible, John.
00:28:10
johngrimsmo
Yup. Yup. Yup.
00:28:13
John
I Googled it for a flight. I was like, what's the best rate you get from Columbus to Milwaukee? And it's like you're three different area carriers. Everybody has one connection. This one has the best on-time ratings, but this one has the most flights per day.
00:28:24
John
It's like, it's just so much better than going to Google or Kayak or the site directly.
00:28:28
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. And you go to Google and all you get is like travel articles of like, here's the top 50 destinations in that's not what I need. know
00:28:36
John
If you're up for it, the Acquired podcast just did their Google history, episode one. And ah it is very good. And and talking through how Google upended, mild spoiler, although it's historical, um you know all of the Yahoo, AltaVista, Lycos, et cetera, didn't want Google
00:28:46
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:29:00
John
didn't care about Google reviews as a threat, even though it wass so much better because they wanted people to be on their pages longer because that was ad serve. That was their click banner ads.
00:29:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:10
John
And they were like, Google, get of here. We don't have no interest in licensing your technology. And Google is like, ultimately, better search will prevail. But that's ultimately kind of what you and I are talking about right now as well. Anyway.
00:29:24
johngrimsmo
yep
00:29:26
John
A mild return to the manufacturing world
00:29:29
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:29:30
John
We had the chance to take the kids to the Pacific Northwest for the first time ah last week and really enjoyed it. Really spent some time in Seattle and Vancouver and north of Vancouver area.
00:29:43
John
And I think you are, I know you're from there. I don't remember how much, you spent most of your childhood did there, right?
00:29:49
johngrimsmo
I was there from 13 to maybe 21, 22. No, no.
00:29:53
John
Okay. ah Sorry, I got the error wrong. It wasn't like just from zero to three years old or something.
00:30:00
johngrimsmo
no Like my entire high school and young adult life was in the Pacific Northwest.
00:30:00
John
Yeah.
00:30:03
John
Yeah.
00:30:04
johngrimsmo
I loved it.
00:30:05
John
It's beautiful. it really is. Got to see Rob, got to see Amish. So really enjoyed both that and then saw ah guy that we worked with for quite a few years at one of the space companies.
00:30:16
John
He had since moved on, but it was really good to have lunch with him as well.
00:30:19
johngrimsmo
You would have driven by the fast cap factory. i don't know if you saw it.
00:30:23
John
So we had lunch in Bellingham, which is the town I met the gentleman just mentioned from the space company.
00:30:25
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:29
John
Yes. And I was, Super cute town, just kind of got off the highway. were going between the Boeing factory and going up to meet Amish. And then I'd reach out reach out to this buddy.
00:30:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:37
John
He's like, yeah, let's go have lunch in Bellingham. So apparently Paul Akers is there.
00:30:41
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:30:41
John
He's there. And I think um i think um the the ERP system guy's there.
00:30:47
johngrimsmo
Pro shop guys are, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:47
John
Paul.
00:30:49
johngrimsmo
They were in Bellingham.
00:30:49
John
So I don't know. and
00:30:51
johngrimsmo
um Yeah. I mean, Bellingham was our big town. Like grew up in Linden was our, you know, 9,000 people town, tiny little town.
00:30:55
John
Oh, really?
00:31:00
johngrimsmo
And then Bellingham was the next big one. So we'd go there for the mall and all that stuff. My mom lives in Bellingham.
00:31:04
John
No kidding.
00:31:04
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:31:05
John
Oh, really? It's cute.
00:31:06
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:31:07
John
It's a cute kind of quaint. That's funny.
00:31:11
johngrimsmo
And you can see Mount Baker from everywhere pretty much, um which I summited when I was 15 years old, by the way.
00:31:19
John
Legit.
00:31:20
johngrimsmo
told Clara that yesterday and I was like, yeah.
00:31:22
John
That's cool. What sort of a hike hike is that?
00:31:26
johngrimsmo
It's a
Material Testing for Product Longevity
00:31:27
johngrimsmo
three-day mountaineering climb on glaciers.
00:31:29
John
Is that right?
00:31:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:31:30
John
Oh, wow.
00:31:31
johngrimsmo
Three days to get up, five hours to run down.
00:31:35
John
Really?
00:31:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:31:37
John
Fine hours are still a lot.
00:31:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:39
John
That's cool.
00:31:40
johngrimsmo
But yeah, good times. Yeah, because summer's winding down and kids and I are looking for some stuff to do and kind of zoom out on the whole map. I'm like, where do you want to go?
00:31:51
johngrimsmo
you know do
00:31:51
John
Yeah, right?
00:31:52
johngrimsmo
And then I was like, if we go out west, we got to see my mom. We got to see my uncle. There'll be a lot of things that will you know be required for us to do. If we go anywhere else, we can have our own trip that is just whatever we want to do.
00:32:00
John
Pick up.
00:32:05
johngrimsmo
So we don't have a choice yet, but... Might actually split. I might take Clara to Montreal, might drive to Montreal, do like the big city thing.
00:32:11
John
Nice.
00:32:13
johngrimsmo
um There's a bug museum that she wants to go to that Leif will not go to.
00:32:16
John
It's hilarious.
00:32:18
johngrimsmo
But anyway, and then Leif and I might jump on a plane and go somewhere.
00:32:21
John
We weren't totally sure what we were going to do with the kids this summer. And then when we were looking at these options, this had been kind of on our radar. And then it was Columbus to Seattle direct on Alaska Airlines for like 250 bucks a ticket.
00:32:33
John
And I'm just like, yeah, done. Like, that's perfect.
00:32:34
johngrimsmo
Nice. So you got to go up, you got seeamish she got to see some whales, I think.
00:32:36
John
yeah
00:32:39
John
Amish and Squamish. We some whale watching. Saw Amish's shop. Successfully sticker bombed it in two places. He has only found one of them.
00:32:47
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:32:48
John
um And seeing, hanging out with him ah really really really reinvigorated my, this this is a legit comment, not a nerdy comment, but five axis passion.
00:33:01
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:33:01
John
Alexanders doesn't do five axis work. the shimp A couple of the shim ports are legit five axis, but I'm not using five axis regularly. And um the quote unquote new fusion tool pass, they've been around for probably over a year. But um the ones that come to mind are geodesic and multi-axis finishing.
00:33:21
John
But also now you can do some very legitimate ah tool orientation, five axis control on other existing tool pass like steep and shallow and figure which other ones. And so had some time on the airplane and downtime.
00:33:34
John
So I went through four or five older parts, some of them for that Project Egress Apollo thing we did and other parts we just had played with before and reprogrammed them in five axis. It's so freaking amazing now.
00:33:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's freeing
00:33:47
John
Are you using them?
00:33:49
johngrimsmo
um I mean, as with most people, 90% of our work is positional five axis, not simultaneous five axis.
00:33:54
John
Okay, got it.
00:33:56
johngrimsmo
But every now and then you're like, I can. So like, let's do that simultaneous.
00:33:59
John
Yeah.
00:34:02
johngrimsmo
um Yeah, there's some tool paths that I've come to rely on. um But I and don't have the parts or I haven't designed them as in such to like use Swarf and all the ones I don't use very much.
00:34:10
John
Yeah.
00:34:16
John
Yeah, totally. Again, same here. It was more just like, I remember Amish did a that impeller job and I couldn't do it infusion, whatever, five years ago. And now I think you can do that.
00:34:28
John
want to say really well, because it's probably not the software you you would use if you were an impeller shop, but like you can do,
00:34:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:34:35
John
You could like the even that lunar mount I made that was I really struggled with. I redid it with geodesic multi-axis finishing, steven shallow, five axis pencil. Freaking great. It's awesome. Like you can just tell it looks great.
00:34:45
johngrimsmo
Yep. And the things that I've really been really enjoying is obviously the in-process stock.
00:34:52
John
Mm-hmm.
00:34:52
johngrimsmo
and uh the simulation quality is getting so good that it literally shows you know tenths of a remaining material in a corner that you missed and i use that i see it
00:35:05
John
I didn't realize the stock that has gotten better.
00:35:09
johngrimsmo
yeah yeah and it is literally true to real life and uh
00:35:10
John
Interesting. Huh?
00:35:15
johngrimsmo
I can see my tools too big for that corner because there's a little bit of green left in that corner or something like that. And you can turn on the compare feature, which I don't do very much, but it shows them in color, what it's hitting and missing.
00:35:21
John
Yeah.
00:35:26
johngrimsmo
um
00:35:26
John
Oh, that's the only one use.
00:35:28
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I don't live in that. I just live in the kind of green one. um
00:35:32
John
I really wish the simulation had like presets because like my one preset would just be my loose tolerance, loose accuracy, get it done fast. And then my second mode would be like, okay, I want i want one thou hyper accuracy, color compare mode.
00:35:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:35:48
John
Takes a lot longer, but then I really want to see this the sauce. Okay.
00:35:54
johngrimsmo
two
00:35:57
John
ah only ah and but I know I've been talking a lot about this. The only last thing I had to talk about was vapor honing, but ah yeah I yield floor the floor to you.
00:36:02
johngrimsmo
yeah No, that will be an interesting one. um Yeah, I'll do a quick dive on Fjell buttons, and then we'll get into vapor honing, which could tie in somehow.
00:36:14
johngrimsmo
um For buttons, we've used 17.4, we've used 440C at different hardnesses. We've used...
00:36:25
johngrimsmo
465 custom, which was too soft.
00:36:27
John
Yep.
00:36:27
johngrimsmo
We've used M2, which we're currently in production of right now. It's a tool steel, works quite well, very robust.
00:36:31
John
That's right, the 65 Rockwell.
00:36:38
johngrimsmo
It is not a stainless. And we did a saltwater rust test comparing 440 and M2. And the 440 stainless actually rusted a little bit faster. But there might be some reasons for that that I'm not quite seeing due to our processing.
00:36:53
johngrimsmo
um And then we tried some D2, some A2, and now we've got this 420 material coming in, which should be like the ultimate, hopefully, from everything we've learned.
00:37:05
John
Okay.
00:37:05
johngrimsmo
um However, throughout this whole process, it's got me to starkly realize ah it's not so much the button, but the geometry on the blade is a big contributing factor to why it's denting these buttons.
00:37:19
John
oh Okay.
00:37:22
johngrimsmo
And I'm actually just finished three d printing a button 10 times bigger and a portion of the blade 10 times bigger to help visualize and show people um what is actually going on.
00:37:27
John
Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:37:32
johngrimsmo
Because I can zoom in in Fusion. I can go to my microscope at 50 times zoom and I can like, i I know what's going on, but I can't verbally explain it to somebody. um So to have this model in my hand and be able to show the guys on the team like this is what happening, this is what I'm trying to avoid, it's going to be pretty cool.
00:37:47
johngrimsmo
So that just finished on the printer. But yeah, I'm constantly tweaking and changing the geometry of the detent catch, let's call it, where the button hooks into the blade and pops out when you flip the knife open.
00:38:03
johngrimsmo
And if that catch is too sharp and too high up the radius of the button, it's basically a locked feature. And as you try to flip the knife open, you're compressing something.
00:38:15
johngrimsmo
The sharp edge is digging into the button because your geometry is
00:38:20
John
for
00:38:21
johngrimsmo
not letting go. And the yield point of the steel is letting it absorb that sharp edge and hopefully bouncing back, but sometimes staying dented. Does that make sense?
00:38:31
John
Sort of, I think so, yeah.
00:38:32
johngrimsmo
Sort of. Yeah, a visual really helps with this. but So changing like a radius on the edge of the the hook, the catch on the blade, tapering it out, cupping the shape of the the detent, all that stuff is is what I'm deep in the weeds with now.
00:38:42
John
Mm-hmm.
00:38:46
johngrimsmo
And I think I've got it figured out. And I've got a few knives, the latest ones, that feel absolutely amazing. And I'm much higher confidence than ever before that this geometry cannot dent the button because it has a much broader contact zone as opposed to a sharp edge.
00:39:02
johngrimsmo
so I'm learning quite a lot from all this process stuff and this is the kind of thing I'm sure there are experts out there that could guide me and hold my hand and maybe even solve this problem for me but finding them was difficult and the solution to this problem is time is my time and a little bit of money and and uh back and forth with the rest of the team but
00:39:15
John
yeah right right
00:39:19
John
yeah
00:39:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so I'm learning a lot and i'm trying now to figure out how do i how do I catalog this information for internal use? um I have a revision spreadsheet where every change I make, I'm writing my notes, you know, this radius, this angle, this hardness, this button, this serial number.
00:39:40
johngrimsmo
And that helps. But then also, how do I communicate this in a YouTube video if I want to like share what I've learned? Because I just spent months on this project.
00:39:47
John
yeah
00:39:47
johngrimsmo
And like it's stuck in my head now.
00:39:48
John
I know, right?
00:39:50
johngrimsmo
And I feel smarter. But I have the ability to save somebody else a lot of grief. Right?
00:39:56
John
If anything, make an intern make a video that, even if you don't end up editing or publishing it, can be your own reference.
00:40:03
johngrimsmo
right
00:40:04
John
um What is so different about the 420 that you're looking to come in?
00:40:09
johngrimsmo
Angelo's been running on that one, but it is a stainless that should get up to 65 Rockwell, which is kind of the two big things. And it's ah high toughness, high wear, high yield, all that stuff. That's about as much as I know.
00:40:21
johngrimsmo
But basically, it's like an M2D2, but a lot more stainless.
00:40:21
John
Got it. Got
00:40:26
John
it. Which I think just means nickel, right? Is
00:40:29
johngrimsmo
got Chromium, usually.
00:40:31
John
it chromium?
00:40:31
johngrimsmo
Could be nickel, yeah.
00:40:32
John
Okay. Okay. That's always, again, hashtag not a metallurgist, like,
00:40:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:40:37
John
they these alloys aren't like that different. It's like 0.2% of like whatever palladium or cobalt or nickel or some other that changes it from 4146, whatever, you know.
00:40:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah, makes a big difference.
00:40:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:40:49
johngrimsmo
Exactly. and
00:40:49
John
it's not like It's not like stainless starts different when it's you in the mine or something.
00:40:55
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's it's just mixtures of all these different steels, vanadium and all that. And they say D2 is almost a stainless because it has like 13% chromium, whereas M2 has maybe 5% or 3% or something.
00:41:03
John
I got it.
00:41:06
johngrimsmo
um Whereas a stainless might have maybe 18% chromium. I'm making this up, but...
00:41:11
John
Sure.
00:41:11
johngrimsmo
There's a limit where it's not stainless and it is stainless, but D2 is like pretty much stainless. And ah I view these products as something that I want to last 100 years or more. And if I can eliminate possible rust or humidity or somebody lives by the ocean or you know they work on a boat or whatever, if I can eliminate the possibility of this product degrading by using a stainless versus using a carbon steel, I would like to make that choice.
00:41:36
johngrimsmo
you know's so That's what I'm trying to think of now.
00:41:39
johngrimsmo
Because I've got knives that are 14 years old and they look great. So there's no doubt in my mind that they could last for 100 years and still be good if kept up, right? That's kind of cool to think about.
00:41:50
John
It really is.
00:41:51
johngrimsmo
no
00:41:51
John
the The lockup on a button seems like it is more, from a manufacturing tolerance design standpoint, much more challenging than a traditional flip blade with a lock bar, which is still actually pretty freaking tall order.
00:42:05
johngrimsmo
It is, yeah. Depends on how deep you want to go. um that i'm I'm struggling a lot more with the detent than I am with the lockup.
00:42:15
John
Is that just because it's new to you?
00:42:17
johngrimsmo
Because, yeah, it's a new style of doing it, and there's a lot of tight tolerances in this, and I want it a certain way.
00:42:26
John
Like if you had done the ball detent 10 years ago, and now you're on a lock bar, assuming that you would ah iterate a bit on the lock bar too.
00:42:29
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:42:36
John
It's not like you'd nail out the first try, right?
00:42:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah, for sure. yeah
00:42:40
John
Mm-hmm.
00:42:41
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:42:42
John
Something.
00:42:43
johngrimsmo
All right. Vapor honey.
Exploring Vapor Honing Applications
00:42:46
John
I saw this cute bench top. you know It's not that much bigger than a bamboo on Amish's shop desk. And he showed me the results of it.
00:42:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:42:57
John
And I was like, that looks great. And I thought we could really use one of those.
00:43:00
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:43:01
John
And then I saw the price tag on this is the vapor honing technologies.com for the mini or the micro. It was like, i there and there may be more accessories you need with it, et cetera, cetera. But basically this thing was 1200 bucks. I'm like, oh, done.
00:43:18
John
um So email the company was wanting to get some recommendations on the right mixture of media. And then think I put it in the WhatsApp and then you or Rob were sort of saying like, oh, hey you should look at a different company or wet versus dry, which I don't know anything about.
00:43:27
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:43:32
John
And sounds like you had done some more research on it.
00:43:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I've done a bunch of research. So we have a big um barrel blaster, be bead blast cabinet with coarse aluminum oxide in it or whatever, and we use it quite a bit. um So Angelo, who used to work on aerospace and satellite parts, said they used to use these Comco microblasters.
00:43:50
johngrimsmo
And it's like a little tiny benchtop box.
00:43:50
John
Oh. Okay. Okay.
00:43:53
johngrimsmo
You put your hands inside, no gloves. and it has very, very precise, very small, high velocity nozzle.
00:43:56
John
oh
00:44:01
johngrimsmo
And it only uses the media once. They've got clean hoppers in the back that spit the media once, and then it becomes garbage.
00:44:04
John
so
00:44:07
johngrimsmo
You could reuse it if you want, but that could lead to clogs and stuff like that. So the the purpose is to use it once. And the Comco Blasters are like 10 grand, like a lot of money. Vanaman makes the same thing, probably cheaper quality, whatever for like $1,000 2000. If you buy their mist extractor dust extractor as well.
00:44:27
johngrimsmo
Robin Ranzetti got one, which is a huge endorsement. And the Veneman ones look amazing.
00:44:30
John
Interesting.
00:44:31
johngrimsmo
And I have earmarked $2,000 for that purchase.
00:44:35
John
Yeah, exactly.
00:44:36
johngrimsmo
Whenever I'm ready to commit to that, and it absolutely will happen. And it can have three different medias or nozzle sizes. with three different pencil guns in the machine. So you just grab the next one, you hit hit the foot pedal or whatever.
00:44:46
John
interesting
00:44:48
johngrimsmo
So you can have coarse, medium, fine. You can have walnut shells for polish. You could have aluminum oxide. And because it's a one-time use, it can all mix in the bottom and who cares?
00:44:57
John
yeah exactly
00:44:58
johngrimsmo
Right? So if that's pretty cool to me.
00:44:59
John
and We're not doing this in production, so I don't think I care about, you know, okay, go through, don't know, if you go through five pounds a month, whoop-de-doo.
00:45:05
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:07
John
What's the layman's, I could probably ask chat GPT this, but like, okay, sandblasting versus beadblasting versus vapor honing versus wet versus dry. What what are the differences here?
00:45:18
johngrimsmo
i don't know much I don't know much about vapor honing other than, like you probably know more having seen the unit at Amish's shop than I do.
00:45:19
John
Or are they all the same?
00:45:25
johngrimsmo
I've just seen a couple of videos. Explain what you saw.
00:45:29
John
Well, he didn't run it, so I don't – to be fair, I don't know. it was But what it looked like was a bamboo-sized, slightly wider but shorter, bamboo, quote-unquote, sandblasting cabinet, high-quality, meaning truly sealed, not like when you look at a Harbor Freight, like riveted together sheet metal that has holes everywhere and or leaks.
00:45:51
John
It had the two gloves. You stick your hands into it through the gloves, and then had a nozzle. um, look like it would be a fairly accurate thing. Cause Amish was showing some of the parts that he was, um, wanting to take just basically the shine off of aluminum to give it a homogenous kind of patina.
00:46:05
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:46:06
John
I think it D I know it would deburr, but the point was more uniform, no tool marks, not giving that shiny reflection.
00:46:11
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:46:15
John
Um, that's, that is really all I learned.
00:46:17
johngrimsmo
And it's wet.
00:46:18
John
Um, So I believe his is wet, but I thought, gosh, don't quote me on this. I thought Amish said the way it works, even though it's a wet machine, the parts actually still effectively come out dry.
00:46:29
johngrimsmo
No way.
00:46:31
John
Yeah, I should, I'll have to ask him, I'll follow up on it.
00:46:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah. ah Yeah. I thought he sent a message that said they wash off real quick in the sink. I was worried about beads getting stuck in the holes.
00:46:38
John
Maybe he did.
00:46:40
johngrimsmo
um Whereas with a dry process, you don't have wet moisture in the cavities and the holes and things like that. You just turn upside down.
00:46:50
John
Shakes out. Okay.
00:46:51
johngrimsmo
i don't know.
00:46:52
John
Yeah. I don't want to, i don't want to spread misinformation. So let me go learn a little more and I'll report back.
00:46:54
johngrimsmo
True. Yeah, and maybe there's, some like, microblasters are not for bigger parts. um Kind of, like, 12 by 12 would be a big part.
00:47:03
John
What do you we mean to buy bigger parts? What's talking, tell me this side. Yeah.
00:47:08
johngrimsmo
you You would do a section, or, like, they use them a lot in watchmaking.
00:47:10
John
Yeah.
00:47:11
johngrimsmo
They use them, I don't know if any knife makers have them, but I think they'd be amazing. um Smaller parts, you know, palm-sized or smaller parts.
00:47:19
John
they Yeah, those those were were the size of the parts Anast was showing me. um we That was one of the questions we had there for the vendor. The part we were thinking about making was a little bigger than palm size, but we thought, well, could we do a valve cover, which is six inches by 14 inches?
00:47:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:47:36
John
And it's like, well, I'm sure you could, but questions, are you sitting there for 20 minutes tracing three sixteenths lines across it?
00:47:41
johngrimsmo
Right.
00:47:42
John
Like, that's that's not fun. Okay.
00:47:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. And they have different nozzles, wide fan nozzles and micro point nozzles and all that. And the nozzles wear out. So they have steel ones. They have Ruby nozzles that are like more resistant.
00:47:56
johngrimsmo
um Yeah, it's cool stuff. I think we'd use it quite a bit for decorative finishes, maybe for some deburring, but more for some even decorative finishes, or you could mask, you could print some vinyl labels and mask a thing, blast around it, peel the label off. Now you have two contrasting finishes.
00:48:14
johngrimsmo
um We'd use it for that kind of stuff, I think.
00:48:18
John
i like the I like the idea of deburring, but my concern, even on the valve covers, we have a couple of edges that are very tricky to machine deburr. We do machine deburr them, but frankly, they still feel sharp, if that makes sense.
00:48:32
John
And i was like, ooh, a vapor hose could be great, but... I don't think it's going to look good if you vapor hone a saw section and then anonize the whole part. I think I'm assuming it will be a slight mismatch.
00:48:41
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah, you're right.
00:48:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah, you'd see that. And it would blend out, like you'd see a blob of surface finished difference.
00:48:50
John
Yeah.
00:48:52
johngrimsmo
Okay,
00:48:53
John
Yeah. Oh, I got to run. I to call. Sorry. I'll see you next week.
00:48:56
johngrimsmo
Armin. Sounds good.
00:48:57
John
and Take care.
00:48:57
johngrimsmo
Good good talking to you. Bye.
00:48:59
John
Yeah, bye.