Transcript
johngrimsmo: Good morning and welcome to the business of machining episode 427. My name is John Grimsmo and this is our weekly manufacturing chat where we get to talk about what we're up to and what we've learned and what we're thinking about in our businesses.
John Saunders: My name is John Sonners.
John Saunders: And I'm sitting here chuckling because you went to your event and I did not go to mine.
johngrimsmo: What were you going to go to?
John Saunders: The Hermla Summit.
johngrimsmo: Oh, you were gonna. Yeah. Okay.
John Saunders: and so I'll keep this short um and you can kind of have a laugh about it, but I was supposed to leave Monday night. I was going to be there all day Tuesday. It was super excited both to see some machinery stuff, work holding automation for clothes, and also to see some people.
John Saunders: um And my flight got rescheduled. I think it was, I think I stopped counting. It was, I think like 13 times um like rebooked was going to miss connection and got that got delayed.
johngrimsmo: No.
John Saunders: And then I just kept looking at this and then right before,
johngrimsmo: Were you at the airport?
John Saunders: No, this is all, that's what even scared me more.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Again, nobody wants to hear me complain about traveling, but this was like 8am. My flight was at 5pm. This all started happening.
johngrimsmo: Okay. Yeah.
John Saunders: There's no weather issues. There's no whatever. So I'm like, this is just, this is just doomed. And so right before I was going to leave for the airport, I took one final look and they had moved my flight back to getting in, uh, super late with a connection. There's like zero chance I was actually going to make bum blah, blah, blah.
John Saunders: And, um, I was only going for one day Tuesday. I mean, it was Monday night, back Wednesday morning, but like one day there. And I was like, I have zero desire to like get stuck in, or like not like do the travel and not get to the event.
John Saunders: um And so I looked at the ticket and then the ticket was refundable because of all the shenanigans. And I just, I've done never done this. like Like again, nobody really cares probably, but like I'm the kind of guy that like,
johngrimsmo: no it's it's relatable like yeah
John Saunders: I book a trip, I go on the trip. Like I don't like i don't miss flights, I don't rebook flights, blah, blah, blah. I'm kind of a plain vanilla guy like that. And I was just like, you know what?
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: I'm not going, screw it. I'm not gonna like put myself in a situation with a flight that appears to be doomed. um In anticipation of folks asking, I did not bother to check, because I just thought it doesn't matter.
John Saunders: I made the decision not to go. um And then in a funny way, it was, it was the perfect decision. It was such a big right decision.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: I'm there's one person I really wanted to see that messaged offline. I'm going to figure out a time to see them later. And, um, I got a bunch of work done that night at home for fun.
johngrimsmo: At home.
John Saunders: Like when I say work, I mean kids, family, Johnny five tennis, like all that stuff.
johngrimsmo: Yeah,
John Saunders: And then Tuesday I took the day off at home to myself and just spent like eight hours uninterrupted to do like whatever this is. Like days off, not in the shop, but in the shop.
johngrimsmo: yeah. me
John Saunders: You know what i mean? Like it was so refreshing.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: You probably can hear my voice now. Like I felt great.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, like you bought time.
John Saunders: um Yes. So that's my, that's my sob story.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: i I wish I had been able to go though.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Anyway.
johngrimsmo: Good. Silver lining. i like that.
John Saunders: Yeah. You though, well, you said you said you had some stuff talk about.
johngrimsmo: Good. Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: So let's hear
johngrimsmo: So I have a lot of um shop stuff, but we can get into the current precision days that I went to. So in a similar way, I wasn't sure if I could go. I wasn't sure if I was going to go.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: First week of school, Meg's going back to university.
John Saunders: Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Leif's, you know, high maintenance.
John Saunders: You got kids. Yes.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it's like kids.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And... And i was like, okay, let me get through the first day of school. See how it goes. Let me get through the second day of school. Okay. Everybody's going, everybody's doing okay. Maybe I can skip day three and four. Cause Meg's home. Meg's not going to university the day three and four.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So she's around to do my dad's around whatever. So literally like the second day of school, Wednesday night, I'm like, but I really want to go to turn to tonight. Like, like I want to leave now.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, so I made the call and it was little, I guess as one sided, it was sort of like, I'm, I'm going, I guess it was fine, but it it did it a hundred percent sometimes.
John Saunders: Yeah, I know what you mean, though. people People have the right to express disappointment or veto, but like unless somebody tells me why, like I'm here, jump in the car.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, totally. So, I mean, it certainly added more burden on, uh, on my wife, which maybe I shouldn't have done, but, uh, it worked out. Um, so I, I went, I, I did like a solid half plus day of work. I left at 2 PM and I drove.
johngrimsmo: And I was like, I could fly, I could drive.
John Saunders: but
johngrimsmo: It's a nine, 10 hour drive. And I tried to rationalize it. I was like, well, the travel time, you gotta get to the airport, get to the airport early. You gotta go rent the car. Like it's gonna take maybe not nine or 10 hours, but it's gonna take at least five or six to like get there.
John Saunders: I know.
johngrimsmo: It's like, ah, whatever.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I like to drive in. I like being in my car. And, um, so it' was good.
John Saunders: You also can just hop in your car and decide to go. Like there's no, there's no like, I need to pay somebody.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. thanks And then I have the freedom and i I can turn around if I need to, whatever.
John Saunders: I need to like, yeah, exactly.
johngrimsmo: Um,
John Saunders: hear you.
johngrimsmo: And with with ah free supercharging for life on this vehicle, it cost me nothing to like travel anywhere.
John Saunders: Dude.
johngrimsmo: Just snacks.
John Saunders: Not to steal your thunder, but I had the same thought.
johngrimsmo: So that's cool.
John Saunders: And it had this been an event that i had this been a event that was critical to Saunders' six-month future, I would have just hopped in the car and gone.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: But sorry, go ahead.
johngrimsmo: um Yeah, so i drove, had a lot of good time in the car to think, to um plan, and just kind of wonder, and there's like nothing else to do but think and just cruise.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And I do enjoy that time. um Sometimes you get kind bored of board a thinking and trying to like, come on, brain, think harder.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: And you just, anyway. um
John Saunders: You can't, we talked about this, like you can't, um like i have yoga or exercise, you can't go from zero to like, I'm playing my best.
johngrimsmo: But it was good.
John Saunders: You've got to get yourself in the right mindset.
johngrimsmo: yeah Yeah, exactly. um So I got there and next day i saw Adam from Laney Machine Tech. Really like Adam.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: um And I got to meet Cyrus, Cyrus Lloyd from Silo's Garage.
John Saunders: Yeah. Sorry, that's your eyes?
johngrimsmo: Hadn't met him before.
John Saunders: Uh-huh.
johngrimsmo: And we became close friends. And yeah, the three of us were kind of walking around talking about diamond turning and precision and surface flatness and all this stuff for days and days.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And it was amazing. And then there' was this other guy, i saw his t shirt a couple times around called and his t shirt said surface engineering, like the brand on the t shirt.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And that's obviously his company. And I'm like, eventually, we're all standing in a circle. And I had to call him. was like, What is surface engineering? I'm so interested. That sounds incredible. Like, I don't know what that is.
johngrimsmo: um Turns out what they do, he's in California. Adam knows him pretty well. Paul is his name. And he they have this amazing shop with, I think he said 20 or 30 employees.
johngrimsmo: They make the equipment that inspects silicone wafers.
John Saunders: No way.
johngrimsmo: And like silicon waivers are insane accuracy and quality.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: And he makes the inspection equipment that is 10 times more accurate. So they're making their own air bearing spindles.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: They're making their own grinding, polishing, lapping. um And so when I asked him what he does, he kind of told me and he goes, listened to the podcast.
John Saunders: No way.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And i was like, no way, man.
John Saunders: a i had the same, okay.
johngrimsmo: That's incredible. And, Well, to finish that, he said, and I want to thank you because something you said on the podcast a while ago, which was like a year and a half ago, I talked about um these lapping pads that we now have on our lapping machine called Squadro pads. so don't even know if you remember me talking about that.
johngrimsmo: And it's like, yeah, there there is a stick on board.
John Saunders: The ones that are like semi-disposable or semi-consumable. Yes, I do remember this.
johngrimsmo: diamond disc that has this resin bond diamond particles on top of it in a pattern. And you can dress it flat and it it it works extremely well for us. So I mentioned that a year and a half ago or whatever.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, I heard that and I went nuts on it and we've been using it nonstop. And he told me some really interesting applications of how he's using it I'm like, this is amazing. I feel like I haven't said anything about that. And I could, but...
John Saunders: Say it again. What you mean?
johngrimsmo: I feel like I haven't really talked about them very much. um
John Saunders: No.
johngrimsmo: But like the one time I did, he picked up on it and could actually make use of it in his hyper precision industry. um So that was really cool.
John Saunders: Yes. No, John, that's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it was awesome.
John Saunders: I had some random, if I'm just being totally honest, a random moment of like, will John Grimso and John Saunders know when they've lost their relevance? Like when we become out of date, you know, dinosaurs.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: And, um, I, that sort of made me think like, we just don't, and I'm, I'm proud of it. Although I'm betraying my own, like pondering, wondering, like, we don't really pay attention to our viewership numbers, et cetera, because we don't market this.
johngrimsmo: no
John Saunders: We don't, you know, like all most other forms of social media that have moved into very much promotional and, so forth and so and then i had the same thing where a guy i was randomly talking to about something i don't sorry i don't even remember what he's like yeah of course i listen to the podcast i'm like oh that's that's that's hilarious um
johngrimsmo: you right One of the guys that I met there, I'm pretty sure his name was Ethan Patane. has Centric Innovations, I think it is.
John Saunders: yes correct yep
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And he said, you've worked with him. So he told me, he's like, I'm re-listening to the whole bomb from beginning, from episode one. I'm about halfway through right now. And he's like, I forget what he said, but he's like, you guys, you just got the Nakamura or something, or you're talking about this.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, it's really funny.
John Saunders: Oh my God. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's really funny hearing, you know, John and John talk from like six years ago and the thought process and the, compared to what he knows, we know now. yeah,
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, if you have time, you should do it. I'm like, I'm not listening to 400 episodes of myself talk.
John Saunders: No. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I have zero interest in that, but.
John Saunders: Oh, you know, I'm agreeing with you with the caveat that maybe I would do like 10 minutes of a, like episode 33, but I don't like it otherwise.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: I don't know.
johngrimsmo: No, I would be weird, but you know how a lot of people trying to promote their their thing, their podcast or whatever, they'll extra extract clips and they'll post clips and we could do that.
John Saunders: It's yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: I think, I think, I think we, Oh, I mean, Yvonne does that for us or do you do that? i don't even know. Sorry. Somebody does, somebody posts ours on Instagram right now.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: i think it's
johngrimsmo: I've done it a couple times, but I haven't been up with it. um
John Saunders: okay. So when you repost it or you're reposting what we post and if if we post it, that's Yvonne, I think.
johngrimsmo: yeah
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
John Saunders: that sound right? Okay. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, but that's just the the thumbnail, like the the header. It's not text, audio, anything like that.
John Saunders: Oh, touche. Oh, you've posted a few times you described video clips.
johngrimsmo: I have posted a few times.
John Saunders: Those are cool.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah. Because Zencaster will send me like these AI generated like snippets, 10 seconds, where it sounds like we're talking about something important.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I just haven't been looking at them.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I should send the link to Yvonne and she can look at them.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: All right.
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Well, can I interrupt?
johngrimsmo: So that was cool. Yeah, go for it.
John Saunders: Okay, so first off, I think um both because I want to, and I think we sort of have an obligation to spread the love. Can you elaborate or at least tell folks where they can learn more about the good deeds that Adam at Lane Tech is doing, as well as the things like Cyrus and the lab that he was building or is building?
johngrimsmo: o
johngrimsmo: I will get into that.
John Saunders: in ah Okay, okay.
johngrimsmo: um Adam is as far as understand, he's a college machine shop instructor in California at Laney College. He is not Mr. Laney, he's Adam Ballag.
johngrimsmo: um But yeah, so he's an instructor and he's like the kind of instructor that all of us wishes we ever had or anybody could ever want because he is so passionate and so nerdy and so smart and so good at explaining concepts and topics.
johngrimsmo: um It's just infectious. You can't help but learn interesting things and apply it, um which is really cool. And meeting him in person, he gave a keynote speech. um at at the current event. He was literally editing it right beside me while we were sitting in the audience to put the final touches on it before he went up.
johngrimsmo: And he's just he's just really trying to pay it forward. And a lot of his speech was like teaching the next generation of, you know, we have all this technology all around us. Well, who's going to run it? And what we're trying to do is make sure that people are capable.
johngrimsmo: And he went on about um the telescope that he has the students build.
John Saunders: The projects, yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, you know, every other machine machine class, did they just make the stupid little square widgets with holes in them because it teaches you technically this is how you thread a hole. This is how you face a block. This is how you put a chamfer on.
johngrimsmo: But it's pointless because it's not a thing. And he's like, why don't we make something really freaking cool? And we' were all sitting around a breakfast table and like the Hermione guy was there and the Blum president was there and all these other guys.
johngrimsmo: Adam was giving his pitch. And he's like, imagine somebody comes to work for you for an interview and they drop this telescope on your desk and it's it works.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: And I made that. Like, he'd be like, you'd hire that person, right? And i'm like, yeah, give give me two of those, please. Yeah.
John Saunders: I believe there's a Robin Renzetti story of, ah my words not his, where he went into an interview and was like, for something machining related and was like, oh, I'm not a machinist, but but here is a full functioning helicopter rotor system with the, what's that drive?
John Saunders: What's that mechanism called? helicopter that like pivots as,
johngrimsmo: Gyro?
John Saunders: There's a fancier name for it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, i don't know.
John Saunders: He's like, well, yeah, I made this, but I'm not a machinist.
johngrimsmo: yep
John Saunders: yeah There's like some fast-forward punchline.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: You're hired.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
John Saunders: But Adam's program is either partially or exclusively focused on micromachining, including having a Kern.
johngrimsmo: It is now. Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Like this is not not to disparage any other programs out there because anyone who's teaching and willing to teach and has access to any equipment, equipment you know if it's a Haas UMC, great, but like this is a different level program.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. and And because he is so passionate and so out there, and companies like Kern are like, oh, we have this junky old machine that nobody really needs or wants, but we'll send it to you and it works or you got to fix it.
johngrimsmo: um And he's been sent a diamond turning lathe. He's been sent Zygo interferometers. And he's because he's so friendly and so charismatic and so just pay it forward, asking for nothing.
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: He is a teacher, teacher's salary. Like he's not doing this for the money.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: He's doing it because he loves to.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's just wonderful. Just a stud.
John Saunders: He is Instagram. I'm pulling up here. um Adam Laney, Instagram, CNC. Isn't it Adam Laney?
John Saunders: Laney.
johngrimsmo: It's Lainey Machine Tech.
John Saunders: Thank you, LaineyMachineTech on Instagram.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: So Adam from, I had the chance to meet him once, I think, at IMTS.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Like you said, great dude. Thank you publicly for, i was, you know, anytime you see somebody who's willing to teach, it's like, God bless you.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And the clips he posts on Instagram over the years, like I've been glued to them because he like, he's teaching me topics on Instagram that I want to know more of. And, you know, the, only the only problem, the only, um, annoyance is, you know, when you jump on your phone, you're like, ah, I got 30 seconds.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I'm just going to check Instagram real quick. And he pops up with a 10 minute video and I'm like, well, crap. Now I got to watch this. Like I'm happy to, but.
John Saunders: That's actually a theme we're going to come back to on this episode, but that's a change of topics.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: So, yes.
johngrimsmo: Okay, to log in for later.
John Saunders: How about Cyrus?
johngrimsmo: Cyrus was amazing. Very almost exactly as you as he sounds in his video. he talks very slow, very, don't want monotone, but um he's very precise and very thoughtful with how he he presents himself.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And Yet in person, he's this kind of like strong, confident, like 24 year old dude. And it's just, we just had the greatest time just chatting about stuff.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, dude, I've been following your your kitchen table adventures for a long time now. And he's like, I don't know why people are watching these videos. They're like, they're not that good. I'm like, because you're passionate and you're doing something crazy and you're pushing the limits. And like, it's just interesting to watch and teaching me um very interesting things that I'm interested in. So.
John Saunders: Yes. And he's a very young individual. Like he is, he is, i mean, I can't even, he actually, him and Ethan Patane are just light years beyond where you and I were at that age.
johngrimsmo: yeah
johngrimsmo: i think they're both 24 and oh like at we were at like
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: My so ah Cyrus story is funny and very um very ah memorable for me. um We were with my family at, I'm almost positive it was one of the Chicago's like Museum of Science and Industry.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: I remember guys posted that, yeah.
John Saunders: I remember The room had real Apollo command module. I don't remember which Apollo mission, but had a real module and it had a fake, like a replica of lander. And I was really excited to show William and my wife this because we'd been working on those parts for the Smithsonian on that and all that.
John Saunders: and And look, this is going sound... whatever, but like there's only been a handful of times where anybody has ever recognized me outside of like IMTS, let alone with my parent or with my family.
johngrimsmo: An event, yeah, totally.
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep.
John Saunders: And it's happened a few times and Yvonne thinks it's hilarious.
johngrimsmo: hey
John Saunders: And I'd be lying if it doesn't feel
johngrimsmo: ah Totally.
John Saunders: fun, like good, but like, look, if I can't begin to think about like getting the ego to, it's just not whatever. But, uh, he comes up to me and believe he was with his partner, or girlfriend, et cetera.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And I don't know who he is. And he was very kind and so and complimentary.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Um, and I, you know, ah Dylan from with intolerance, I have kind of commiserated about this as you, because I've gone through this process probably hundreds, maybe thousands of times, mostly at trade shows where of course, like everyone knows you are, cause you're whatever, um you kind of develop a canned response.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Like I'll ask them, you know, what kind of machines they have, what they're doing, where they where they work, like what are they like doing? um Which isn't like a good thing, cause I tend to go into this kind of like pre-programmed mental mindset of just, you you want to make them, well, no, not like I don't mind it, but you just want to like, you want to make sure that they really get what they want out of meeting somebody.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Get through it
johngrimsmo: Sure. Yeah, I get that.
John Saunders: if, if they think they're like, cause again, this sounds really makes me sound full of myself, but like, you know, we had a lot of letters over the years that have been like, Hey, you helped me make better decisions, like good things in life.
John Saunders: And, um, so anyway, I didn't know who he was.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And then was super nice guy was a relatively brief thing. And then looked him up like that night and I was like, oh my God, I wish I had known. ah i think I asked you and you were like, yeah, I knew who that guy is.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: um And then I've been following his videos on his homemade diamond turning lathe and how he's like taking, he's finding metrology stuff that is operating on like whatever, nanoscales and figuring out how to hook into Arduinos and get pulse outputs.
John Saunders: And um it is like, keep doing what you're doing. It's super cool.
johngrimsmo: Absolutely. Yep. It's insane. Yeah, I'd be I'd be lying if I said I didn't go back to my hotel and watch some of his YouTube videos that night um just to like further reinforce what we were talking about and what I learned that day.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It was awesome. The current event was awesome. They always put on a good event. There were, I'm guessing maybe a hundred people showed up.
John Saunders: That was pretty good.
johngrimsmo: So it's like, not big, not small, like cozy, really intimate, really Dave precise was there.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Although I only got to wave at him and he was busy talking and I was busy talking. And then he comes to mind. He's like, I gotta to go. I'm like, dude, I haven't talked.
John Saunders: What?
johngrimsmo: Whatever. I've seen you a couple times this year already, you know, be safe.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, And they they announced the Kern Fortis HD, their new machine, which I don't think I'm really allowed to talk about until emo in a couple of weeks.
John Saunders: They did.
johngrimsmo: um But it's big.
John Saunders: Yeah, it's not a micro.
johngrimsmo: it's it's It's not a micro. No, it's it's it's a larger Kern. That's all I can say. But um really impressive. They had a great demo video. um They had a demo part that was surprisingly impressive.
John Saunders: but The gear?
johngrimsmo: like No, i it looks like a, I can't remember it's called, an engine housing, a block a block from an engine, but like, you know, a tiny one made on the a micro, and then the big one is like many, many times bigger.
John Saunders: Oh.
John Saunders: Yeah. Okay.
John Saunders: Big boy.
johngrimsmo: And you're watching this and you're like, I want one of those. And I'm like, I don't and need it. I don't need a bigger machine. i don't want a bigger machine. and don't want...
John Saunders: Oh yeah. This thing.
johngrimsmo: There's no point for me personally, even though you know you're kind of swung by the marketing.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like, this is amazing. But it's like... Yeah,
John Saunders: You could make, i go on it what's the movie, Deadpool with the sword? you could make the full-size samurai sword.
johngrimsmo: yeah. yeah Exactly. in In one op, one and done. um It's like four or five times heavier. Like, it's massive. Anyway, ah that was cool.
johngrimsmo: But the the one that really blew me away... was I posted a little clip in my stories of the Zygo white light interferometer. And I am so enthralled and so far down the rabbit hole of this topic in the past five days.
johngrimsmo: I can't even begin to describe like this is my hyper obsession right now, um especially with what Cyrus is doing, making his own from eBay junk parts.
John Saunders: Oh, okay.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, I am absolutely doing this. This is the coolest thing ever. A couple of the demos that we did, um i took my Norseman with the flatland engraving pattern on it, and we put it under the microscope.
johngrimsmo: And it's a microscope that basically shoots not monochromatic light, but white light with all the colors in it at the surface. And an interferometer bounces one beam towards a reference mirror and then the other beam down to the part and when they come back and combine if the waves of light are shifted they will interfere and they'll make like bands and you'll tell if your surface is flat or not
John Saunders: OK.
johngrimsmo: bad explanation, but basically it's a way to see topography of a surface using light to interfere with itself and create visible lines.
johngrimsmo: And then the camera picks it up and it it measures height basically. And it's it's like nanometer resolution vertically and fairly accurate XY, but pretty much your surface height is your is your thing.
John Saunders: turn
johngrimsmo: And it can basically resolve like one nanometer of a height difference.
John Saunders: What is...
johngrimsmo: Which is stupid.
John Saunders: yeah we hear these free terms. It's so easy to get lost. So like, what is... you know, so we deal in 10,007 inch or we think we do at least.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And then, you know, half that's a 15 million. you hear that number and you hear guys like Renzetti talk about grinding maybe 20 million and they know what they're doing.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: So when you go to one nanometer, go ahead.
johngrimsmo: So I'll give... i'll give I'll give you both units just to kind of keep us North American inch people happy.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Cause I'm starting to learn both like, well down at the lower range. So you have a 10th and then you have and one 10,000th of an inch.
John Saunders: Okay. 10,000th of an inch. ten thousandth of an inch
johngrimsmo: Uh, one micron is 39 millionths of an inch. So like a 10th is ah hundred millionths of an inch, 100 millionths. Does that make sense?
johngrimsmo: Um,
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going the other way. Yeah, I'm with you.
johngrimsmo: going I'm going deeper.
John Saunders: know
johngrimsmo: So 39 millionths is one micron, which is half a tenth. That's like really small. ah One micron, right? And yeah, I know exactly.
John Saunders: You can't say really small at this point, but yeah.
johngrimsmo: But for machining, for like measuring mics and things like that, like half a tenth is, you know, attainable with hand tools.
John Saunders: Oh yeah.
John Saunders: me
johngrimsmo: um So that's a micron. And then, yeah.
John Saunders: Sorry, can we, can I pause you though?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: So, cause I want to get this right. Cause actually Courtney, our intern, I were just doing this cause we have two different millimus indicators. One is 50 millionths and the other one is one micron.
johngrimsmo: I'm
John Saunders: And she was, she thought we had a problem. Like, no, you have the micron one. So I think it was, is it 25? It's the metric to inches. Like 25 microns is one 10th or something.
John Saunders: Hold on.
johngrimsmo: appreciate it's or whatever.
John Saunders: Let me try it. Isn't that the other way around? Okay.
johngrimsmo: no
John Saunders: 20. I'm certainly not.
John Saunders: Yeah, 25 microns is one tenth.
johngrimsmo: Okay, but the other way around,
John Saunders: Yes. What do you want to know?
johngrimsmo: one
John Saunders: One tenth?
johngrimsmo: one micron one micron is 39 millionths of an inch.
John Saunders: Sure. That's correct. Yep.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. So a 50 millionths indicator and a one micron indicator are almost the same thing, with the micron indicator being 10 millionths more accurate.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So
John Saunders: Okay. I'm with you. when
johngrimsmo: a nanometer is a thousand times smaller than a micron.
John Saunders: Oh my God. Are you serious?
johngrimsmo: A thousand times is one nanometer.
John Saunders: Thousand. Oh, so then where does that, where, what is a nanometer relative to like an electron or an atom or whatever?
johngrimsmo: yeah So... so I don't really know that far down, but and I know that light, like each color of light has a different thickness of nanometer rating.
John Saunders: Okay. was curious.
johngrimsmo: um So UV light is like 400 ish nanometer. The wave thickness, the thickness of the wave of light is about 400 nanometer.
John Saunders: Okay. The amplitude, if I using the fancy word, maybe.
johngrimsmo: and peak to peak of the wave or whatever it is.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Green light like we use in a monochromatic light source is 550 ish nanometers.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And then you get up into the red lights and ultraviolet like um infrared lights that are more in the 900 nanometer range. So.
John Saunders: So they're actually bigger sine waves, whatever you call it, right wave.
johngrimsmo: Yes. Exactly.
John Saunders: Okay. Yeah. Huh.
johngrimsmo: So as you go up the rainbow, i don't know if it's the rainbow exactly, but like it's like blue, green, yellow, red. are the, and they get bigger and bigger in nanometer thickness of the light of wave.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: Now, basically 500 nanometers is a wave of light. Like it's so small.
John Saunders: Well, I don't know i don't what I'm talking about here. I don't know that that's – light isn't a physical property. I think you're just i think it's just the the the the height, peak-to-peak, happens to correspond with that.
John Saunders: But you still don't see it.
johngrimsmo: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: I mean, it could be a three-thousandth of an inch or three-meter light where you still wouldn't see it. It's just how it moves.
johngrimsmo: True.
John Saunders: But, okay, continue.
johngrimsmo: But yeah, like visible light is, is you do see it.
John Saunders: Touche, you do see it. You know what I mean.
johngrimsmo: So when you're using an optical flat, super flat glass on a shiny surface that is flat, and you're seeing the fringe pattern, that is light bouncing top to bottom, top to bottom within that gap that you're creating, that wedge.
johngrimsmo: And if you get it just right, you'll have no bands because you've driven out all the air.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And now you are less than 500 nanometers away from each other.
John Saunders: I thought if you got it right, it was the bands were just parallel, not curved.
johngrimsmo: which is insane.
johngrimsmo: No, if if the two flats are straight, but still tilted towards each other, you'll get a bunch of lines. If you get the flats absolutely parallel and like kind of rung together kind of thing, all the bands will go away and there'll be like none.
John Saunders: Got it.
John Saunders: Got it.
John Saunders: So this Zygo thing sounds like a digital optical glass.
johngrimsmo: Optical flat. It is exactly that.
John Saunders: Dude, no kidding.
johngrimsmo: Exactly that. So the Zygo one was about 100,000, which is a lot less than I thought.
John Saunders: how How much? Okay.
johngrimsmo: We thought it'd be like half a million kind of thing.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So anyway, we took an engraved um flatland pattern Norseman, and I wanted to like see the quality of the sidewall of the engraving tool. It's only engraving down three thousandths of an inch with a tapered engraver.
johngrimsmo: and uh we could resolve that entire trough and valley and we could see every cusp height on the bottom floor where the tip of the ball is not doing much and we could see the the wall finish on the side of the wall and you can basically end up with a 3d image of your scanning zone which is very small like one or two millimeters in diameter and you can see everything And I'm like, oh my gosh, I want this.
John Saunders: It's crazy, John.
johngrimsmo: So then he's like, let me see your knife. This is another example, like the applications guy. He's like, this is another thing we use this machine for in the knife world. He took my knife, he opened it, he laid it down, edge pointing towards the microscope.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, i want to see your edge quality, but head on.
John Saunders: Yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, what do you think? I don't know. It's going to be a point, like two bevels that come to a point and yeah, it'll be kind of dull because it's used or whatever. It turns out if you take your fingers together and put them into a point, like a ah triangle thing, yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah, like the church steeple. Yeah, yeah. That's
johngrimsmo: um That's what you think it should be like. But he's like, which way do you guys sharpen the blade? Do you go towards the belt or away from the belt? Or we have a stone that's rotating. um I go, I don't know because I'm not the one sharpening.
johngrimsmo: But he said,
John Saunders: where we're supposed to go toward it.
johngrimsmo: But I think we're actually going away. And um he proved that by looking at this. If I take my fingers together and then I bend all my fingertips and create a valley in the in the middle, that's what our edge looks like in the nanometer scale.
John Saunders: Hmm.
John Saunders: Like a U?
johngrimsmo: there is There is a valley in the middle of the edge, edge, edge because we're sharpening away. So we're shoving material towards the apex on both sides.
John Saunders: oh my God.
johngrimsmo: and and creating this valley and i can't remember what he said the depth was but i was like blowing my mind and what cyrus is able to do but i'm gonna diy one yeah what i really wanted for is surface finish analysis um quantifying toolpath strategy vibration things like that and um
John Saunders: you you can't you You can't buy one of these, John.
John Saunders: No, but you'll never ship a single product again.
John Saunders: No, I, this is super awesome.
johngrimsmo: And I was talking with the guys about practical applications and they're like, yes, you can always go too far and never, nothing's ever going to be good enough and things like that. But you can also quantify being like, if we tumble the part for 10 minutes, we get this actual measured result.
johngrimsmo: If we tumble it for an hour, we get this actual measured result.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Why are we tumbling for an hour when 10 minutes gets us the proper same result kind of thing? So you can start to quantify these real reasons. Yeah. um And you know how a profilometer gives you a surface roughness average across a line?
John Saunders: hope you're
johngrimsmo: This gives you an SA value, which is a surface average on the viewable surface area.
John Saunders: already sure.
johngrimsmo: you know Like not just a line, but a whole surface.
John Saunders: hope there you sure
johngrimsmo: And it can resolve every scratch. um And another problem we often have is somewhere between surface grinding, heat treat, lapping, things like that, like we're achieving flatness all day long.
johngrimsmo: Sometimes an errant grit of surface grinder wheel causes a gouge that's too deep with this machine. I could literally measure how deep it is, how deep we're going to have to lap it out, how if if's the scrap blade, because we can't lap that far or not, and just save everybody a whole lot of time.
John Saunders: Oh my God. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So i'm like, yes, I want this so bad.
John Saunders: How, i mean, I'm assuming that building a DIY like Cyrus is doing is nuts. Is it completely nuts or just like pretty nuts?
johngrimsmo: No, it's actually incredibly straightforward. Like it's work. I've been spending a lot of hours to be researching it. um He's got some good videos and there's other guys, Huguen Optics on YouTube that has some amazing videos. so You really got to wrap your head around like what's happening, why it's doing it. And there's some software side that I haven't gone into yet.
johngrimsmo: But Cyrus is happy to hold my hand through this and just wants to see more people using it. And I feel like I could do it for under a thousand bucks.
John Saunders: Super cool, John.
John Saunders: What?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, just with like eBay mirrors and bleams beam splitters and reflectors.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And what I want to use is I want to use my Zeiss microscope as the recorder, as the microscope, as the thing, because already have it it. I spent a lot of money on it.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, can I just build an interferometer under it? And it can be the optics. And I think it's totally possible. So that saves me from having to buy a camera, a microscope lens, all that stuff.
John Saunders: hundred yeah
johngrimsmo: And I already have now a stage. Now I'm just building a light source, beam splitter, a reference mirror, and my part sample and some movement things in line ah to get this done.
johngrimsmo: So it's going to be super exciting.
John Saunders: Dude, I actually love this idea. Sorry.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, we're good.
John Saunders: maybe maybe im maybe i'm not Maybe I'm not supposed to endorse it, but like this is cool.
johngrimsmo: Thank you. No, thank you. Yeah, because we have our microscope that goes up to 50 times zoom and I'm often at full zoom wishing I had more wishing I could see a profile, a surface, a dent, a scratch and and know it more.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And like we have our CMM, but like this is different.
John Saunders: When it's, a microscope is, even if it's a binocular scope, is still very limited in its depth of field and understanding. This sounds like it actually is able to use the beam reflection to understand true depth features. Is that?
johngrimsmo: Topology, absolutely.
John Saunders: Yeah. Okay. not to I might have got a great job explaining it, but yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep. If you have a scratch, you can not only measure how deep it is, how wide it is, but you can see the surface finish of the wall of that scratch.
John Saunders: Yeah. That's cool, John.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, oh my gosh.
John Saunders: That's really cool.
johngrimsmo: So anyway, that's my hyper obsession right now. um Some other stuff. know how the current HD is hydrostatic ways?
John Saunders: I do. Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: So it has pressurized oil that's that it's riding on like an air bearing. um
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And it also has linear motors, which are magnetically driven motors. What I think I learned it two years ago here, but ah they reinforced it again. The magnets of the linear motors provide 1000 kilograms of downforce, attracting the the sliding way to the base.
John Saunders: It's crazy.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: but But that's the only thing that's connecting them. There's no mechanical otherwise.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. So you have that.
John Saunders: The Z axis would just fall off, I think.
johngrimsmo: I don't know.
John Saunders: ah I remember them explaining it when they assemble it. It's like this awkward stage, but anyway, there must be.
johngrimsmo: i think I think there's a break for the Z axis. There has to be um because you can cut power and it's fine.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: but But they were saying... the the thousand pounds plus the weight of the objects themselves which are not light thousand kilograms so one metric ton of force is pulling these two parts together and the hydrostatic waves are pushing them apart and there's this you know relationship between that keeps the gap at like seven seven microns uh thickness which is like five microns is two tenths so we're talking you know three and a half tenths between these two sliding parts across a 20 inch sliding zone
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: It's nuts.
John Saunders: That's what Marv showed us last time ah we were there last summer. And what was fun is he was very open about it because I believe they filed a patent. So it's actually out there.
John Saunders: Like other folks can't commercially use it, but the they're not hiding behind the science of it.
johngrimsmo: Night.
John Saunders: And it's it's not a Venturi, but it's some orifice that is manufactured to a tolerance that they can achieve that allows them to relatively cost efficiently build this hydrostatic system that can do what you just said, like a film layer across a huge surface area that is, I mean, it's as close to perfect as perfect it can be.
John Saunders: It's cool.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. So, so it was great. The drive home was, um, i bought a lathe on the drive home.
John Saunders: ha yeah
johngrimsmo: but
John Saunders: I saw. It's cute.
johngrimsmo: I saw your, your unsubscribe. Um, yeah, yeah, it's cute. It's good.
John Saunders: yeah To be clear, if anyone didn't see it, Grimsmo buys a desktop unimat and then proceeds to post a picture of him holding a DeWalt cordless drill with a Dremel bit as he's hand grinding something.
johngrimsmo: but
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah exactly i like spinning things i haven't actually seen that podcast episode yet but i did see the edit um so how was that right
John Saunders: yeah Did you see? Oh, of course you saw. You were part of it. This Spencer Webb shenanigans. the Yeah.
John Saunders: Well... I didn't know, ah had maybe like a 1% inkling, but it also was like pretty arrogant to think it was about you. So I just didn't, but then Spencer was like, hey, will you come on the live? And then I was like, well, okay, we'll see what this is about.
John Saunders: And then ah I thought it was hilarious. And yeah, I mean, it's just a funny joke.
johngrimsmo: Good.
John Saunders: I was impressed that the degree with which he took it. and I think Yvonne's posting a video clip on our Insta now.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Oh, amazing.
John Saunders: um But a tip of the hat to everybody who was a good sport about putting Saunders lathework stickers or magnets on their equipment.
johngrimsmo: Good.
johngrimsmo: Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: I have one on my fridge at home right now. Okay.
John Saunders: But he actually, i mean, I'm assuming if folks listen to this podcast, they'll probably see it on our or someone else's social, but they actually redesigned the Saunders Machine Works logo. So it looks like a high speed steel ground lathe bit, which is just even more offensive.
johngrimsmo: nice
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. On a serious note before, because I want to hear more about, you said you've got more in the shot, but... um Through a random happenstance of events, well, the two main ones mean I broke my phone.
John Saunders: So my top of my screen is cracked and the phone's okay. It needs to be replaced. And I was waiting until the new phone came out this week to just go ahead and buy the new instead of the old one.
John Saunders: um But it meant my face ID hasn't worked for like two, three weeks.
johngrimsmo: Hmm. Hmm.
John Saunders: And which is minorly inconvenient for certain logins like to accounts, but it's actually been a great impetus. And some of this is like more personal life stuff, but, uh, I made a bunch of changes that I'm loving. And so if anybody else wants to go down this path, I'm going to just feed the you know fuel on the fire.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: So my wife and I leave our phones in another room or not in our bedroom at night anymore. just, and then you don't scroll at night or morning. Like you just don't, don't use any more. Um, I haven't had social media apps on my phone and for a long time, except Instagram, which I'm guilty of scrolling too much sometimes.
John Saunders: Um, but then I, Um, I found myself, actually there was a, um, part of what I was just prompted. This was a, I go like a Harvard, uh, business school video from a guy, a six minute video on like our brains are designed to, to enjoy the downtime. And we've, we've betrayed our own intellectual progress as a society by anytime you have a second, like a webpage is loading slow. I'm going to the bathroom.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: I'm waiting somewhere.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: i just, you pull your phone out and you scroll. And I wanted to stop that even just as an experiment. Um, And so not having FaceTime, leaving it somewhere else, deleting a bunch of the apps. And then I also logged out of all of my accounts that I would check, chronically check on our main computers. and I have a remote computer that I don't use very often, but it's always on.
John Saunders: So I have them on there. So if I need to go check something like LinkedIn, like I don't need to be on LinkedIn. I can check it twice a week whatever. I have to like remote into that computer to check it. um So some of this is just my own a disciplinary mechanism for myself.
John Saunders: um And
johngrimsmo: I like it.
John Saunders: And maybe I'll go backwards some, but I thought I'm going to do this for at least a month.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: ah I also don't check our customer service platform anymore. I need to. it wasn't appropriate for me to be involved in that because we've got a team, we've got people who do that and I just shouldn't be meddling in it. And to be fair, sometimes we get tickets that upset me.
John Saunders: um You get customers that are, you know, totally inappropriate, they're yelling and they're mad. And I need to be able to weigh in and say, hey, no, we need to write this wrong. we We did something that, you know, whatever.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: And say objective and not look at the noise of, you it does tick me off sometimes when people are just like, the The one that comes to mind without betraying any customer specifics was we had an international order.
John Saunders: It was, in my opinion, relatively well packaged in a way we packaged many international orders. It got like, it got like drop kicked and we of course would have replaced it.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: But the way the customer was like irate and um demanding certain things and, Some of it could also be lost in translation, but literally, like you know non-English speaking stuff.
John Saunders: But anyway, I'll leave it at that.
johngrimsmo: no Yeah.
John Saunders: It's been great to have a detox from that. And I now, actually, I should get some saga books from you. I leave all those trade show notebooks around. Like I have one in my bathroom. I have one in my ah bedroom because when I want to just think of something instead of grabbing my phone, I just write down a piece of paper now.
johngrimsmo: yeah Well, as we say in our house, that's output, not just input. So doom scrolling Instagram is input. um Whereas output is like writing down your own thoughts, thinking, them doing doing something, building something, drawing something, creating something.
John Saunders: Yeah, I like that. Sure.
johngrimsmo: um So especially with our kids at 12 and 15, Clara is great at the output.
John Saunders: That is good.
johngrimsmo: Leif is not not so great at the output.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: We talked about that this morning with him. He's great at input, but it's like, I'd love to see you like,
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Do all these things you talk about, like build something, do something, go somewhere.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So love it. And then with your detox, you get to see as you trickle things back in, like what really matters to you. Cause we get so hung up on just, Oh, this is what I do.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: This is what I always do. I always check this. I always check this. I, you know, I don't need to.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah. And I don't want to repeat myself or sit here wax poetic, but like Instagram and the machining community, we're all better off for it. I like being a member of it, but you pre algorithm when you could control what you feed.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: Great. Now that's not what it is anymore. And I, um, you I'm not gonna, I thought about leaving it. Um, And I always have rationalized it by saying, oh, we need it for our business. But like, that's probably a non real excuse because even my wife posts on it.
John Saunders: But I also didn't want to be a member of a community where we just post for our own business game. Like you need to see our product being used because it's like fun to be an organic part of the community.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: But um anyway.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: I'll shut up. It's been great. So anyone else who wants to consider doing it, great.
johngrimsmo: Good.
John Saunders: And like we went over a friend's house and we were outside. i just left my phone in the car. Like if somebody, like nobody needs to call me. Actually, sort of, super ironically, we a,
johngrimsmo: Oh my gosh.
John Saunders: we were we had a a bonfire it got super smoky, blew smoke sideways. And then a neighbor had a tree fall down on a yard. Pure coincidence. Somebody drove by and thought the house was on fire.
johngrimsmo: Oh my gosh.
John Saunders: Called the fire department. The owner of the house texts me and is like, hey, is my house on fire?
johngrimsmo: be
John Saunders: And this is the first time in my adult life I've actually deliberately intentionally left my phone in a place where I cannot have access to it. and it's not my responsibility to, know, but i I had to laugh at the irony of that.
johngrimsmo: ah But yeah, they're waiting for a response. but my gosh. Yeah, exactly. So, well, good.
John Saunders: Sorry. ah Okay. what you I know we're 42 minutes in, but you had said you had a bunch going on the shop.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, a couple soft things. So the the argon gas in Heat Treat, I've got some more results than that.
John Saunders: right
johngrimsmo: We talked about the paper last week.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So the paper puffed up the bag, made it weird. um Somebody DMed me on Instagram and said paper has a moisture content and like you're putting the paper in the bag is come maybe adding moisture to the environment on the inside.
johngrimsmo: And I was like, interesting.
John Saunders: Which is bad.
johngrimsmo: which is theoretically bad um because the argon bags with paper were ah like puffing up and then collapsing and shrinking and and shriveling and like crunching and therefore not flat anymore, or letting in some weird oxygen. i don't know exactly what happened, but it was bad results.
johngrimsmo: So then Larry took the paper out, did a couple more ah argon tests and got pretty good results. But sometimes the bags will puff up so much that they won't quench properly afterwards between our aluminum plates.
John Saunders: Oh, interesting.
johngrimsmo: that's not great either um so we're trying to find out but what what it is and then just last night i was on a walk and i texted larry like i stopped pulled up my phone i texted larry i was like what about the the talcum powder that we use because we've been using baby powder which is talcum powder and perfume um it it keeps the blade from sticking to the bag so we've always just dab the part with some talcum powder on it and then put it in the bag and then
John Saunders: Sure.
John Saunders: z
johngrimsmo: It turns out talcum powder absorbs moisture like crazy. Like that's its job is to absorb moisture.
John Saunders: Yeah, okay.
johngrimsmo: So we're literally introducing moisture into the bags now. And I'm like, hmm. So I texted him and he's like, it's another variable. All right Happy to test it on a scrap blade.
John Saunders: Yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: Maybe the bags will stick. Maybe it's not a problem anymore. Maybe our blades are cleaner now than they were 10 years ago when I learned this rule. So like, I don't know. um So that's the update there.
johngrimsmo: The graphite fixture worked quite well.
John Saunders: Good.
johngrimsmo: um Yeah, it supports the button. The buttons that did dent and were weird came out great. They came out a little blacker than I expected, um but they're hard.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: They're 63 and a half Rockwell. um
John Saunders: That's crazy.
johngrimsmo: So that's good. And what's interesting is the corner of the graphite chipped away a little bit. And the part of the bag where that was rubbing is like thin. And I'm like, is there some weird chemical reaction between the graphite and the fic and the the bag?
johngrimsmo: Because it's like worn through and i don't know if oxygen got in or whatever. So that's kind of weird. oh
John Saunders: well you Will you do me a favor? Call or email that company because I think I buy the bags from the company you buy them from.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, backpack.
John Saunders: i don't Yeah, there's not that many. I'm sure that they were like, there's they have some, it's probably on there, thank you. The bags and are partially consumed by the process.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: especially on the outside. That's why they turn black. And then the bag consumes any remaining oxygen on the inside, as well as your part does.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: But yeah, but The graphite bag mixture, i don't know if it was an abrasion where it like rubbed or whatever, um but it wore away the corner of the graphite and it it made the bag thinner and it looks kind of flaky in that spot.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Hot spot.
johngrimsmo: So I suggested to Larry to have like a sacrificial bag within the bag, just like some little layers of sheet metal.
John Saunders: Yeah. Double bag it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, basically, um to see if that'll help. um But he's getting marginally better results with the Argon now that he's kind of figuring it out, but nothing like mind blowing, like, oh, the parts are still silver coming out.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So we're still learning. We're still learning. It's interesting.
johngrimsmo: um Last thing I'll talk about is the the button on our fjell, which we've got heat treat problems. I've got geometry things I'm working on. think I have to detent perfectly figured out, but the lock side of it, it's still sticking.
johngrimsmo: Like when you open the knife and the button comes up to lock the knife,
John Saunders: yes yes
johngrimsmo: it it sometimes will stick on the top side and when you click on it with your finger sometimes it'll have a little click like it's it's wedged it's stuck and that is a combination of hardness geometry surface finish taper angle and the button interacting with the titanium bore and it's all of those things
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: who
johngrimsmo: So I had Jeff make some new buttons with a better bore relationship um and also different locking angles. So we've been stuck at six degrees included since I designed the knife.
johngrimsmo: And that is apparently right on the edge of what a locking taper should be.
John Saunders: okay
johngrimsmo: Like imagine imagine a one degree taper, it's going wedge. It's going like get stuck.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: Whereas a 45 degree taper is just going to touch and bounce off and like, but it could fall.
John Saunders: Where's it?
John Saunders: Yeah. 89 degrees would be like a sidewalk. You're walking along it.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John Saunders: Okay. Okay.
johngrimsmo: And that would that would fail in a locking environment.
John Saunders: I'm with you.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: So what is industry called a locking taper is five to seven degrees or something like that. Anything under that is going to lock. But it all depends on surface finish, hardness, geometry, things like that.
johngrimsmo: So I had Jeff make some six degrees, seven degree, and eight degree buttons just so I can like broad spectrum test this. And i I took a six, which is what we're using. I put it in the knife, and it kind of sticks.
johngrimsmo: And then I took an eight, and I put in the knife, and no stick whatsoever.
John Saunders: But does it fit? trying to think, what would the be the right question?
johngrimsmo: I don't know yet.
John Saunders: Okay, okay.
johngrimsmo: So i'm I'm at that stage where I'm like, I have some information that looking promising. Will it fail if I spine whack the knife and try to fail it or something like that? I don't know yet, but I'm on the right track, which is great.
John Saunders: Good, okay, making note.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Taper lock up angle on Fjell. That is a great segue to the one thing I did want to say, which is a business call to action, which is our expanding pins, the half inch variant are now for sale.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: Ooh, exciting.
John Saunders: So we are selling them. Alex is in charge of this. i think there is a beta discount. So if you want that, and this i think it's probably on the site, but if it's not, you can email us. um And then we're taking sort of user requests for the the next um sizes.
John Saunders: The end goal will be to have these in ranges i I don't know what the smallest and largest will be, but something like quarter inch up to one inch where they're in in stock available to purchase in stock on the shelf without the user requiring to machine them like to their size.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
John Saunders: Um,
johngrimsmo: In nominal sizes.
John Saunders: An inch nominal and metric nominal sizes will be, the that's kind of like informal business plan, if you will.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um There are some quirks because at certain certain sizes are the same model with just minor changes. And then certain sizes, you change the screw or you change the geometry and so forth.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: But um what made me think of your locking angle is... I printed this almost on a whim and we have used this almost every time we brought up this product to look at talking about the access, the slots, internal turning, interfaces, fitments.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: It's like printing something at 300, 500% like this is just the best.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Even before you pulled out that model, I was going to request that you put up a one minute YouTube video where you just gush about that.
John Saunders: Okay. Wait, about this?
johngrimsmo: I think, yeah, it's just about the bigger model and explain this and what we're making.
John Saunders: Yeah, sure. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: We're making these pins and we need to see these things and the slots.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And it's like, that would be very enjoyable to watch in like low effort.
John Saunders: I will do that. I will do that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um 3X expanding pin. And even like, um I don't know how much people want to hear about this, but you know, we're making them on the Williman right now. Cycle time is not great and not even a priority at the moment, but the Williman is a very expensive machine to run these on. So we are are thinking about, okay,
John Saunders: you know, sometimes you just got to believe in yourself and Hey, if these take off, what does the plan look like to make 10,000 or 50,000 a year or a month?
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Right.
John Saunders: And are you doing multi-op machines? Are you transferring them between machines? Are you just getting a dedicated turning? i mean, obviously there's some turning aspects or even God forbid Swiss. Um, but, um, OPS, our ST20Y is up for sale on our Shopify, uh, saunders machineworks.com.
John Saunders: So if anybody wants all the, you know, open book, all the pricing, all the specs, they're just there.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John Saunders: Um, But for now, it's okay to subsidize the part by making on the Wilman because it's a little bit slower, but we have the time on the machine and it works.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: It makes great parts.
johngrimsmo: Totally. And that's kind of the balance is like, i don't want to call it a prototyping machine, but it's so capable you can make anything on it.
John Saunders: Yeah, that's great.
johngrimsmo: so like to to prototype that part on it is fantastic. And now you have a production process, maybe if it's not the fastest, easiest, best, ah whatever, but it's, yeah, it's very doable.
John Saunders: Yeah. Like we're, this will be your world. We're, we're machining the whole torques, but we definitely should be pre drilling certain areas and then coming with an end all just to finish them up. But rather than add that drill and holder and for now it doesn doesn't matter, but it's fun to look at all the like low hanging fruit of how you can improve a process.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. Before you get too stuck into the current method.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. which is also why we're doing that weekly sit down with everybody, which John, it's been great. We'll talk about, i know we're out of time. We'll talk about it next week. Um, if you want, but, um, been good.
johngrimsmo: Nice. right, man. So what are you up to do?
John Saunders: Um, what am I up to today? Uh, bunch of, you well, um we're making changes. going to make some big changes right here. I'm not ready to share.
John Saunders: I've alluded to it, but um what i have I have probably 10 different fixtures, parts, and so forth on my desk of like redefining workflows.
johngrimsmo: Yeah,
John Saunders: And so we're at the point now where it's kind of weird. We've done... Um, you know we've built the plane. We just, we haven't even flown it, but like, we're good. Like I'm going to start booking flights.
John Saunders: Um, um, so yeah that's what we're working on.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John Saunders: How about you?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it sounds like you're at a point where you you're taking the time to step back and be like, okay, we wanna grow, we wanna do different things. How we gonna do this like properly? Cause yeah.
John Saunders: Oh, it's happening. It's, I mean, the, the, I'm not intending to be secretive about it, but, um, the, the, we're going full one piece flow.
johngrimsmo: it
John Saunders: It's what we're doing.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John Saunders: It's going to be great, period.
johngrimsmo: Awesome, can't wait to hear it along the journey.
John Saunders: How about you?
johngrimsmo: um I am reprogramming RASC hard milling for the critical features, and I'm adding the final critical feature that we've never hard milled, but always kind of struggled with.
John Saunders: This is Kern.
johngrimsmo: This is actually Speedio, ah but it's a ra Rask blade, like the lock face, the D10 hole, the stop pin endpoints, and the pivot hole.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And we've always, well, for a long time, we've hard milled all of them except for the lock face. But since everything moves in heat treat in all kinds of weird ways, we have been fighting it. um And so I'm finalizing the hard milling for that.
johngrimsmo: And we actually had this whole, like, we wrote up a um engineer change request or whatever, where like, I'm adding 10,000 to this lock face as of serial number.
johngrimsmo: This piece of paper has to travel through the entire shop, get signed off by each person because this blade and onward, they're different.
John Saunders: Interesting.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: They can't just run on the same program. So once they get to the speedio red light, this needs to come to me and I need to program it. And that process took like over a month. And I was like, holy cow, that took way too long.
John Saunders: ah different now, right?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it's different. But so now it's in my plate and I'm holding everybody back and I'm, you know, causing problems because it's not done yet. But I should have that done today. um And it.
John Saunders: Hard milling. Oh, good.
johngrimsmo: ah Yeah, hardly not difficult, but what is taking so much time is properly making mid-process models with the exact amount of stock to leave because I want it to be right.
John Saunders: Yeah. Oh.
johngrimsmo: um And it's so easy just to have sketch driven tool paths and now and a ah really poor original model that is not an accurate representation of parts throughout the stages.
John Saunders: Dude, if you want to, if you want to pour one out or maybe actually you'll probably feel better about yourself. I'll do a private zoom with you and show you the nightmare that has been puck chuck of like trying to do that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Cause we used to just do stock to leave. We did, then we did CAD sketches. Then Alex, Alex did a great job. It's just been awkward to implement of like, we have now separate discrete CAD and cam master files for every stage, which is like pre heat treat, pre hard mill, pre grind.
johngrimsmo: Right?
John Saunders: Um, because it is so difficult. So I give you a ton of credit. That's, that's a lot work.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah, it is lot work, but it's it's worth it, especially with fusion simulation being so good now that you can see, okay, there's 2000 stock to leave. And this is what my tool is going to do. And this is what it's going to look like.
johngrimsmo: And this is how much load I'm putting on my tool, my little, you know, one millimeter hard mill. Like, you don't mess around with that kind of stuff. Like, if it's got, you know, a thou more stock than you think it does, it could break.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yes. Oh yeah. Right. It's a two 10 step over. So you can't give it five times surprise.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John Saunders: Five times surprise. I am very happy that you have seen the benefit like hard milling post heat treat is just the, the, it's just phenomenal.
johngrimsmo: And the the secret is the secret is more the right tools than anything else.
John Saunders: Like you just get what you want.
John Saunders: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: If you just use a regular off-the-shelf end mill, you can hard mill a couple times, but you won't hold tolerance and you won't, yeah.
John Saunders: I don't know for what it's worth. We use a Haas tooling, which is probably YG1 316s to rough, um which then is then a NS finishes.
John Saunders: And that 316s Haas tool has held up shockingly well.
johngrimsmo: sure yeah
John Saunders: Now, we're not measuring criticals. i will yield that. But um if it I also was not have been – I'm surprised it didn't fail after 10 parts. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah Yeah, like we use three-eighths Lakeshore four-flute ball mill to hard mill the Norseman bevels, and we have forever.
John Saunders: her
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: And it gets destroyed, but it gets, you know, 20 knives out the door before it does.
John Saunders: Dude, I want to see that. I remember you talked about that tool, how just looks like it got its got punched.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: I want to see that under your new DLI interferometer.
johngrimsmo: Oh, my gosh. All right, bet.
John Saunders: Yeah. Dude, love it.
johngrimsmo: All right, man.
John Saunders: Awesome. I'll see you.
johngrimsmo: Sounds good. Have a good day.
