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00:00:01
#427 White Light Interferometry
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TOPICS:
- Tradeshows, Kern Precision days
- Adam from Laney Machine Tech
- Cyrus from Cylos Garage
- White Light Interferometry
- SMW expanding pins
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to the Episode
00:00:00
johngrimsmo
Good morning and welcome to the business of machining episode 427. My name is John Grimsmo and this is our weekly manufacturing chat where we get to talk about what we're up to and what we've learned and what we're thinking about in our businesses.
00:00:06
John Saunders
My name is John Sonners.
Travel Plans and Productivity at Home
00:00:17
John Saunders
And I'm sitting here chuckling because you went to your event and I did not go to mine.
00:00:22
johngrimsmo
What were you going to go to?
00:00:23
John Saunders
The Hermla Summit.
00:00:24
johngrimsmo
Oh, you were gonna. Yeah. Okay.
00:00:26
John Saunders
and so I'll keep this short um and you can kind of have a laugh about it, but I was supposed to leave Monday night. I was going to be there all day Tuesday. It was super excited both to see some machinery stuff, work holding automation for clothes, and also to see some people.
00:00:40
John Saunders
um And my flight got rescheduled. I think it was, I think I stopped counting. It was, I think like 13 times um like rebooked was going to miss connection and got that got delayed.
00:00:47
johngrimsmo
No.
00:00:51
John Saunders
And then I just kept looking at this and then right before,
00:00:54
johngrimsmo
Were you at the airport?
00:00:55
John Saunders
No, this is all, that's what even scared me more.
00:00:56
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:00:58
John Saunders
Again, nobody wants to hear me complain about traveling, but this was like 8am. My flight was at 5pm. This all started happening.
00:01:03
johngrimsmo
Okay. Yeah.
00:01:04
John Saunders
There's no weather issues. There's no whatever. So I'm like, this is just, this is just doomed. And so right before I was going to leave for the airport, I took one final look and they had moved my flight back to getting in, uh, super late with a connection. There's like zero chance I was actually going to make bum blah, blah, blah.
00:01:22
John Saunders
And, um, I was only going for one day Tuesday. I mean, it was Monday night, back Wednesday morning, but like one day there. And I was like, I have zero desire to like get stuck in, or like not like do the travel and not get to the event.
00:01:35
John Saunders
um And so I looked at the ticket and then the ticket was refundable because of all the shenanigans. And I just, I've done never done this. like Like again, nobody really cares probably, but like I'm the kind of guy that like,
00:01:45
johngrimsmo
no it's it's relatable like yeah
00:01:47
John Saunders
I book a trip, I go on the trip. Like I don't like i don't miss flights, I don't rebook flights, blah, blah, blah. I'm kind of a plain vanilla guy like that. And I was just like, you know what?
00:01:54
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:01:56
John Saunders
I'm not going, screw it. I'm not gonna like put myself in a situation with a flight that appears to be doomed. um In anticipation of folks asking, I did not bother to check, because I just thought it doesn't matter.
00:02:07
John Saunders
I made the decision not to go. um And then in a funny way, it was, it was the perfect decision. It was such a big right decision.
00:02:14
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:02:15
John Saunders
I'm there's one person I really wanted to see that messaged offline. I'm going to figure out a time to see them later. And, um, I got a bunch of work done that night at home for fun.
00:02:25
johngrimsmo
At home.
00:02:25
John Saunders
Like when I say work, I mean kids, family, Johnny five tennis, like all that stuff.
00:02:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah,
00:02:29
John Saunders
And then Tuesday I took the day off at home to myself and just spent like eight hours uninterrupted to do like whatever this is. Like days off, not in the shop, but in the shop.
00:02:40
johngrimsmo
yeah. me
00:02:41
John Saunders
You know what i mean? Like it was so refreshing.
00:02:42
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:02:44
John Saunders
You probably can hear my voice now. Like I felt great.
00:02:45
johngrimsmo
Yeah, like you bought time.
00:02:46
John Saunders
um Yes. So that's my, that's my sob story.
00:02:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:02:51
John Saunders
i I wish I had been able to go though.
00:02:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:02:54
John Saunders
Anyway.
00:02:56
johngrimsmo
Good. Silver lining. i like that.
00:02:58
John Saunders
Yeah.
Precision Days Event Experience
00:02:59
John Saunders
You though, well, you said you said you had some stuff talk about.
00:02:59
johngrimsmo
Good. Mm-hmm.
00:03:02
John Saunders
So let's hear
00:03:03
johngrimsmo
So I have a lot of um shop stuff, but we can get into the current precision days that I went to. So in a similar way, I wasn't sure if I could go. I wasn't sure if I was going to go.
00:03:12
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:03:12
johngrimsmo
First week of school, Meg's going back to university.
00:03:14
John Saunders
Oh, yeah.
00:03:16
johngrimsmo
Leif's, you know, high maintenance.
00:03:18
John Saunders
You got kids. Yes.
00:03:19
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's like kids.
00:03:20
John Saunders
Okay.
00:03:21
johngrimsmo
And... And i was like, okay, let me get through the first day of school. See how it goes. Let me get through the second day of school. Okay. Everybody's going, everybody's doing okay. Maybe I can skip day three and four. Cause Meg's home. Meg's not going to university the day three and four.
00:03:32
John Saunders
Okay.
00:03:33
johngrimsmo
So she's around to do my dad's around whatever. So literally like the second day of school, Wednesday night, I'm like, but I really want to go to turn to tonight. Like, like I want to leave now.
00:03:46
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:03:47
johngrimsmo
Um, so I made the call and it was little, I guess as one sided, it was sort of like, I'm, I'm going, I guess it was fine, but it it did it a hundred percent sometimes.
00:03:55
John Saunders
Yeah, I know what you mean, though. people People have the right to express disappointment or veto, but like unless somebody tells me why, like I'm here, jump in the car.
00:04:02
johngrimsmo
Yeah, totally. So, I mean, it certainly added more burden on, uh, on my wife, which maybe I shouldn't have done, but, uh, it worked out. Um, so I, I went, I, I did like a solid half plus day of work. I left at 2 PM and I drove.
00:04:21
johngrimsmo
And I was like, I could fly, I could drive.
00:04:21
John Saunders
but
00:04:22
johngrimsmo
It's a nine, 10 hour drive. And I tried to rationalize it. I was like, well, the travel time, you gotta get to the airport, get to the airport early. You gotta go rent the car. Like it's gonna take maybe not nine or 10 hours, but it's gonna take at least five or six to like get there.
00:04:30
John Saunders
I know.
00:04:35
johngrimsmo
It's like, ah, whatever.
00:04:35
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:04:35
johngrimsmo
I like to drive in. I like being in my car. And, um, so it' was good.
00:04:39
John Saunders
You also can just hop in your car and decide to go. Like there's no, there's no like, I need to pay somebody.
00:04:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. thanks And then I have the freedom and i I can turn around if I need to, whatever.
00:04:44
John Saunders
I need to like, yeah, exactly.
00:04:47
johngrimsmo
Um,
00:04:49
johngrimsmo
And with with ah free supercharging for life on this vehicle, it cost me nothing to like travel anywhere.
00:04:49
John Saunders
hear you.
00:04:53
John Saunders
Dude.
00:04:56
johngrimsmo
Just snacks.
00:04:58
John Saunders
Not to steal your thunder, but I had the same thought.
00:04:58
johngrimsmo
So that's cool.
00:05:00
John Saunders
And it had this been an event that i had this been a event that was critical to Saunders' six-month future, I would have just hopped in the car and gone.
00:05:07
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:05:08
John Saunders
But sorry, go ahead.
00:05:10
johngrimsmo
um Yeah, so i drove, had a lot of good time in the car to think, to um plan, and just kind of wonder, and there's like nothing else to do but think and just cruise.
00:05:17
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:05:20
johngrimsmo
And I do enjoy that time.
Networking with Industry Peers
00:05:22
johngrimsmo
um Sometimes you get kind bored of board a thinking and trying to like, come on, brain, think harder.
00:05:29
John Saunders
Right.
00:05:30
johngrimsmo
And you just, anyway. um
00:05:32
John Saunders
You can't, we talked about this, like you can't, um like i have yoga or exercise, you can't go from zero to like, I'm playing my best.
00:05:33
johngrimsmo
But it was good.
00:05:39
John Saunders
You've got to get yourself in the right mindset.
00:05:40
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah, exactly. um So I got there and next day i saw Adam from Laney Machine Tech. Really like Adam.
00:05:51
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:05:51
johngrimsmo
um And I got to meet Cyrus, Cyrus Lloyd from Silo's Garage.
00:05:55
John Saunders
Yeah. Sorry, that's your eyes?
00:05:57
johngrimsmo
Hadn't met him before.
00:05:58
John Saunders
Uh-huh.
00:05:59
johngrimsmo
And we became close friends. And yeah, the three of us were kind of walking around talking about diamond turning and precision and surface flatness and all this stuff for days and days.
00:06:08
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:06:08
johngrimsmo
And it was amazing. And then there' was this other guy, i saw his t shirt a couple times around called and his t shirt said surface engineering, like the brand on the t shirt.
00:06:17
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:06:18
johngrimsmo
And that's obviously his company. And I'm like, eventually, we're all standing in a circle. And I had to call him. was like, What is surface engineering? I'm so interested. That sounds incredible. Like, I don't know what that is.
00:06:30
johngrimsmo
um Turns out what they do, he's in California. Adam knows him pretty well. Paul is his name. And he they have this amazing shop with, I think he said 20 or 30 employees.
00:06:43
johngrimsmo
They make the equipment that inspects silicone wafers.
00:06:47
John Saunders
No way.
00:06:48
johngrimsmo
And like silicon waivers are insane accuracy and quality.
00:06:51
John Saunders
Yes.
00:06:51
johngrimsmo
And he makes the inspection equipment that is 10 times more accurate. So they're making their own air bearing spindles.
00:06:55
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:06:56
johngrimsmo
They're making their own grinding, polishing, lapping. um And so when I asked him what he does, he kind of told me and he goes, listened to the podcast.
00:07:08
John Saunders
No way.
00:07:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And i was like, no way, man.
00:07:09
John Saunders
a
00:07:10
johngrimsmo
That's incredible.
Listener Impact and Feedback
00:07:12
johngrimsmo
And, Well, to finish that, he said, and I want to thank you because something you said on the podcast a while ago, which was like a year and a half ago, I talked about um these lapping pads that we now have on our lapping machine called Squadro pads. so don't even know if you remember me talking about that.
00:07:12
John Saunders
i had the same, okay.
00:07:29
johngrimsmo
And it's like, yeah, there there is a stick on board.
00:07:29
John Saunders
The ones that are like semi-disposable or semi-consumable. Yes, I do remember this.
00:07:35
johngrimsmo
diamond disc that has this resin bond diamond particles on top of it in a pattern. And you can dress it flat and it it it works extremely well for us. So I mentioned that a year and a half ago or whatever.
00:07:47
johngrimsmo
And he's like, I heard that and I went nuts on it and we've been using it nonstop. And he told me some really interesting applications of how he's using it I'm like, this is amazing. I feel like I haven't said anything about that. And I could, but...
00:08:01
John Saunders
Say it again. What you mean?
00:08:02
johngrimsmo
I feel like I haven't really talked about them very much. um
00:08:05
John Saunders
No.
00:08:05
johngrimsmo
But like the one time I did, he picked up on it and could actually make use of it in his hyper precision industry. um So that was really cool.
00:08:13
John Saunders
Yes. No, John, that's awesome.
00:08:15
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it was awesome.
00:08:17
John Saunders
I had some random, if I'm just being totally honest, a random moment of like, will John Grimso and John Saunders know when they've lost their relevance? Like when we become out of date, you know, dinosaurs.
00:08:29
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:08:30
John Saunders
And, um, I, that sort of made me think like, we just don't, and I'm, I'm proud of it. Although I'm betraying my own, like pondering, wondering, like, we don't really pay attention to our viewership numbers, et cetera, because
Podcast Relevance and Anecdotes
00:08:44
John Saunders
we don't market this.
00:08:44
johngrimsmo
no
00:08:45
John Saunders
We don't, you know, like all most other forms of social media that have moved into very much promotional and, so forth and so and then i had the same thing where a guy i was randomly talking to about something i don't sorry i don't even remember what he's like yeah of course i listen to the podcast i'm like oh that's that's that's hilarious um
00:09:00
johngrimsmo
you right One of the guys that I met there, I'm pretty sure his name was Ethan Patane. has Centric Innovations, I think it is.
00:09:06
John Saunders
yes correct yep
00:09:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And he said, you've worked with him. So he told me, he's like, I'm re-listening to the whole bomb from beginning, from episode one. I'm about halfway through right now. And he's like, I forget what he said, but he's like, you guys, you just got the Nakamura or something, or you're talking about this.
00:09:23
johngrimsmo
And he's like, it's really funny.
00:09:24
John Saunders
Oh my God. Yeah.
00:09:25
johngrimsmo
It's really funny hearing, you know, John and John talk from like six years ago and the thought process and the, compared to what he knows, we know now. yeah,
00:09:35
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:09:36
johngrimsmo
And he's like, if you have time, you should do it. I'm like, I'm not listening to 400 episodes of myself talk.
00:09:40
John Saunders
No. Yeah.
00:09:41
johngrimsmo
I have zero interest in that, but.
00:09:43
John Saunders
Oh, you know, I'm agreeing with you with the caveat that maybe I would do like 10 minutes of a, like episode 33, but I don't like it otherwise.
00:09:50
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:09:52
John Saunders
I don't know.
00:09:52
johngrimsmo
No, I would be weird, but you know how a lot of people trying to promote their their thing, their podcast or whatever, they'll extra extract clips and they'll post clips and we could do that.
00:09:52
John Saunders
It's yeah. Yeah.
00:09:59
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:10:03
John Saunders
I think, I think, I think we, Oh, I mean, Yvonne does that for us or do you do that? i don't even know. Sorry. Somebody does, somebody posts ours on Instagram right now.
00:10:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:11
John Saunders
i think it's
00:10:13
johngrimsmo
I've done it a couple times, but I haven't been up with it. um
00:10:15
John Saunders
okay. So when you repost it or you're reposting what we post and if if we post it, that's Yvonne, I think.
00:10:17
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:10:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:10:21
John Saunders
that sound right? Okay. Okay.
00:10:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah, but that's just the the thumbnail, like the the header. It's not text, audio, anything like that.
00:10:27
John Saunders
Oh, touche. Oh, you've posted a few times you described video clips.
00:10:30
johngrimsmo
I have posted a few times.
00:10:31
John Saunders
Those are cool.
00:10:31
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah. Because Zencaster will send me like these AI generated like snippets, 10 seconds, where it sounds like we're talking about something important.
00:10:37
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:10:38
johngrimsmo
And I just haven't been looking at them.
00:10:39
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:10:40
johngrimsmo
I should send the link to Yvonne and she can look at them.
00:10:40
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:10:43
johngrimsmo
All right.
00:10:44
John Saunders
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Well, can I interrupt?
00:10:46
johngrimsmo
So that was cool. Yeah, go for it.
00:10:48
John Saunders
Okay, so first off, I think um both because I want to, and I think we sort of have an obligation to spread the love.
Innovative Machining Education
00:10:55
John Saunders
Can you elaborate or at least tell folks where they can learn more about the good deeds that Adam at Lane Tech is doing, as well as the things like Cyrus and the lab that he was building or is building?
00:11:01
johngrimsmo
o
00:11:06
johngrimsmo
I will get into that.
00:11:06
John Saunders
in ah Okay, okay.
00:11:08
johngrimsmo
um Adam is as far as understand, he's a college machine shop instructor in California at Laney College. He is not Mr. Laney, he's Adam Ballag.
00:11:22
johngrimsmo
um But yeah, so he's an instructor and he's like the kind of instructor that all of us wishes we ever had or anybody could ever want because he is so passionate and so nerdy and so smart and so good at explaining concepts and topics.
00:11:36
johngrimsmo
um It's just infectious. You can't help but learn interesting things and apply it, um which is really cool. And meeting him in person, he gave a keynote speech. um at at the current event. He was literally editing it right beside me while we were sitting in the audience to put the final touches on it before he went up.
00:11:55
johngrimsmo
And he's just he's just really trying to pay it forward. And a lot of his speech was like teaching the next generation of, you know, we have all this technology all around us. Well, who's going to run it? And what we're trying to do is make sure that people are capable.
00:12:08
johngrimsmo
And he went on about um the telescope that he has the students build.
00:12:11
John Saunders
The projects, yeah, right.
00:12:12
johngrimsmo
And he's like, you know, every other machine machine class, did they just make the stupid little square widgets with holes in them because it teaches you technically this is how you thread a hole. This is how you face a block. This is how you put a chamfer on.
00:12:25
johngrimsmo
But it's pointless because it's not a thing. And he's like, why don't we make something really freaking cool? And we' were all sitting around a breakfast table and like the Hermione guy was there and the Blum president was there and all these other guys.
00:12:38
johngrimsmo
Adam was giving his pitch. And he's like, imagine somebody comes to work for you for an interview and they drop this telescope on your desk and it's it works.
00:12:44
John Saunders
Yes.
00:12:47
johngrimsmo
And I made that. Like, he'd be like, you'd hire that person, right? And i'm like, yeah, give give me two of those, please. Yeah.
00:12:53
John Saunders
I believe there's a Robin Renzetti story of, ah my words not his, where he went into an interview and was like, for something machining related and was like, oh, I'm not a machinist, but but here is a full functioning helicopter rotor system with the, what's that drive?
00:13:10
John Saunders
What's that mechanism called? helicopter that like pivots as,
00:13:12
johngrimsmo
Gyro?
00:13:14
John Saunders
There's a fancier name for it.
00:13:14
johngrimsmo
Yeah, i don't know.
00:13:15
John Saunders
He's like, well, yeah, I made this, but I'm not a machinist.
00:13:15
johngrimsmo
yep
00:13:20
John Saunders
yeah There's like some fast-forward punchline.
00:13:20
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:13:23
John Saunders
You're hired.
00:13:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
00:13:26
John Saunders
But Adam's program is either partially or exclusively focused on micromachining, including having a Kern.
00:13:32
johngrimsmo
It is now. Mm-hmm.
00:13:34
John Saunders
Like this is not not to disparage any other programs out there because anyone who's teaching and willing to teach and has access to any equipment, equipment you know if it's a Haas UMC, great, but like this is a different level program.
00:13:45
johngrimsmo
Exactly. and And because he is so passionate and so out there, and companies like Kern are like, oh, we have this junky old machine that nobody really needs or wants, but we'll send it to you and it works or you got to fix it.
00:13:56
johngrimsmo
um And he's been sent a diamond turning lathe. He's been sent Zygo interferometers. And he's because he's so friendly and so charismatic and so just pay it forward, asking for nothing.
00:14:07
John Saunders
yeah
00:14:08
johngrimsmo
He is a teacher, teacher's salary. Like he's not doing this for the money.
00:14:11
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:14:12
johngrimsmo
He's doing it because he loves to.
00:14:13
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:14:15
johngrimsmo
And it's just wonderful. Just a stud.
00:14:17
John Saunders
He is Instagram. I'm pulling up here. um Adam Laney, Instagram, CNC. Isn't it Adam Laney?
00:14:28
John Saunders
Laney.
00:14:28
johngrimsmo
It's Lainey Machine Tech.
00:14:29
John Saunders
Thank you, LaineyMachineTech on Instagram.
00:14:30
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:14:31
John Saunders
So Adam from, I had the chance to meet him once, I think, at IMTS.
00:14:31
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:14:37
John Saunders
Like you said, great dude. Thank you publicly for, i was, you know, anytime you see somebody who's willing to teach, it's like, God bless you.
00:14:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:14:46
johngrimsmo
And the clips he posts on Instagram over the years, like I've been glued to them because he like, he's teaching me topics on Instagram that I want to know more of. And, you know, the, only the only problem, the only, um, annoyance is, you know, when you jump on your phone, you're like, ah, I got 30 seconds.
00:14:57
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:15:03
johngrimsmo
I'm just going to check Instagram real quick. And he pops up with a 10 minute video and I'm like, well, crap. Now I got to watch this. Like I'm happy to, but.
00:15:10
John Saunders
That's actually a theme we're going to come back to on this episode, but that's a change of topics.
00:15:13
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:15:15
John Saunders
So, yes.
00:15:15
johngrimsmo
Okay, to log in for later.
00:15:18
John Saunders
How about Cyrus?
Passion for Technological Limits
00:15:19
johngrimsmo
Cyrus was amazing. Very almost exactly as you as he sounds in his video. he talks very slow, very, don't want monotone, but um he's very precise and very thoughtful with how he he presents himself.
00:15:32
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:15:34
johngrimsmo
And Yet in person, he's this kind of like strong, confident, like 24 year old dude. And it's just, we just had the greatest time just chatting about stuff.
00:15:46
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, dude, I've been following your your kitchen table adventures for a long time now. And he's like, I don't know why people are watching these videos. They're like, they're not that good. I'm like, because you're passionate and you're doing something crazy and you're pushing the limits. And like, it's just interesting to watch and teaching me um very interesting things that I'm interested in. So.
00:16:06
John Saunders
Yes. And he's a very young individual. Like he is, he is, i mean, I can't even, he actually, him and Ethan Patane are just light years beyond where you and I were at that age.
00:16:08
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:16:16
johngrimsmo
i think they're both 24 and oh like at we were at like
00:16:21
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:22
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:16:23
John Saunders
My so ah Cyrus story is funny and very um very ah memorable for me. um We were with my family at, I'm almost positive it was one of the Chicago's like Museum of Science and Industry.
00:16:40
John Saunders
um
00:16:41
johngrimsmo
I remember guys posted that, yeah.
00:16:41
John Saunders
I remember The room had real Apollo command module. I don't remember which Apollo mission, but had a real module and it had a fake, like a replica of lander. And I was really excited to show William and my wife this because we'd been working on those parts for the Smithsonian on that and all that.
00:16:58
John Saunders
and And look, this is going sound... whatever, but like there's only been a handful of times where anybody has ever recognized me outside of like IMTS, let alone with my parent or with my family.
00:17:06
johngrimsmo
An event, yeah, totally.
00:17:09
johngrimsmo
Yep, yep.
00:17:11
John Saunders
And it's happened a few times and Yvonne thinks it's hilarious.
00:17:14
johngrimsmo
hey
00:17:14
John Saunders
And I'd be lying if it doesn't feel
00:17:16
johngrimsmo
ah Totally.
00:17:17
John Saunders
fun, like good, but like, look, if I can't begin to think about like getting the ego to, it's just not whatever. But, uh, he comes up to me and believe he was with his partner, or girlfriend, et cetera.
00:17:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:27
John Saunders
And I don't know who he is. And he was very kind and so and complimentary.
00:17:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:32
John Saunders
Um, and I, you know, ah Dylan from with intolerance, I have kind of commiserated about this as you, because I've gone through this process probably hundreds, maybe thousands of times, mostly at trade shows where of course, like everyone knows you are, cause you're whatever, um you kind of develop a canned response.
00:17:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:49
John Saunders
Like I'll ask them, you know, what kind of machines they have, what they're doing, where they where they work, like what are they like doing? um Which isn't like a good thing, cause I tend to go into this kind of like pre-programmed mental mindset of just, you you want to make them, well, no, not like I don't mind it, but you just want to like, you want to make sure that they really get what they want out of meeting somebody.
00:17:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Get through it
00:18:07
johngrimsmo
Sure. Yeah, I get that.
00:18:08
John Saunders
if, if they think they're like, cause again, this sounds really makes me sound full of myself, but like, you know, we had a lot of letters over the years that have been like, Hey, you helped me make better decisions, like good things in life.
00:18:19
John Saunders
And, um, so anyway, I didn't know who he was.
00:18:20
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:18:22
John Saunders
And then was super nice guy was a relatively brief thing. And then looked him up like that night and I was like, oh my God, I wish I had known. ah i think I asked you and you were like, yeah, I knew who that guy is.
00:18:34
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:18:34
John Saunders
um And then I've been following his videos on his homemade diamond turning lathe and how he's like taking, he's finding metrology stuff that is operating on like whatever, nanoscales and figuring out how to hook into Arduinos and get pulse outputs.
00:18:48
John Saunders
And um it is like, keep doing what you're doing. It's super cool.
00:18:51
johngrimsmo
Absolutely. Yep. It's insane. Yeah, I'd be I'd be lying if I said I didn't go back to my hotel and watch some of his YouTube videos that night um just to like further reinforce what we were talking about and what I learned that day.
00:18:58
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:05
johngrimsmo
So.
00:19:05
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:19:07
johngrimsmo
It was awesome. The current event was awesome. They always put on a good event. There were, I'm guessing maybe a hundred people showed up.
00:19:12
John Saunders
That was pretty good.
00:19:12
johngrimsmo
So it's like, not big, not small, like cozy, really intimate, really Dave precise was there.
00:19:14
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:19:17
johngrimsmo
Although I only got to wave at him and he was busy talking and I was busy talking. And then he comes to mind. He's like, I gotta to go. I'm like, dude, I haven't talked.
00:19:24
John Saunders
What?
00:19:25
johngrimsmo
Whatever. I've seen you a couple times this year already, you know, be safe.
00:19:25
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:19:28
johngrimsmo
Um, And they they announced the Kern Fortis HD,
Exploring New Machining Technologies
00:19:34
johngrimsmo
their new machine, which I don't think I'm really allowed to talk about until emo in a couple of weeks.
00:19:34
John Saunders
They did.
00:19:39
johngrimsmo
um But it's big.
00:19:42
John Saunders
Yeah, it's not a micro.
00:19:43
johngrimsmo
it's it's It's not a micro. No, it's it's it's a larger Kern. That's all I can say. But um really impressive. They had a great demo video. um They had a demo part that was surprisingly impressive.
00:19:55
John Saunders
but The gear?
00:19:55
johngrimsmo
like No, i it looks like a, I can't remember it's called, an engine housing, a block a block from an engine, but like, you know, a tiny one made on the a micro, and then the big one is like many, many times bigger.
00:19:57
John Saunders
Oh.
00:20:03
John Saunders
Yeah. Okay.
00:20:10
John Saunders
Big boy.
00:20:12
johngrimsmo
And you're watching this and you're like, I want one of those. And I'm like, I don't and need it. I don't need a bigger machine. i don't want a bigger machine. and don't want...
00:20:20
John Saunders
Oh yeah. This thing.
00:20:21
johngrimsmo
There's no point for me personally, even though you know you're kind of swung by the marketing.
00:20:21
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:20:25
johngrimsmo
Like, this is amazing. But it's like... Yeah,
00:20:29
John Saunders
You could make, i go on it what's the movie, Deadpool with the sword? you could make the full-size samurai sword.
00:20:33
johngrimsmo
yeah. yeah Exactly. in In one op, one and done. um It's like four or five times heavier. Like, it's massive. Anyway, ah that was cool.
00:20:45
johngrimsmo
But the the one that really blew me away... was I posted a little clip in my stories of the Zygo white light interferometer.
Fascination with Surface Analysis Tools
00:20:55
johngrimsmo
And I am so enthralled and so far down the rabbit hole of this topic in the past five days.
00:21:04
johngrimsmo
I can't even begin to describe like this is my hyper obsession right now, um especially with what Cyrus is doing, making his own from eBay junk parts.
00:21:13
John Saunders
Oh, okay.
00:21:15
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, I am absolutely doing this. This is the coolest thing ever. A couple of the demos that we did, um i took my Norseman with the flatland engraving pattern on it, and we put it under the microscope.
00:21:28
johngrimsmo
And it's a microscope that basically shoots not monochromatic light, but white light with all the colors in it at the surface. And an interferometer bounces one beam towards a reference mirror and then the other beam down to the part and when they come back and combine if the waves of light are shifted they will interfere and they'll make like bands and you'll tell if your surface is flat or not
00:21:53
John Saunders
OK.
00:21:54
johngrimsmo
bad explanation, but basically it's a way to see topography of a surface using light to interfere with itself and create visible lines.
00:22:05
johngrimsmo
And then the camera picks it up and it it measures height basically. And it's it's like nanometer resolution vertically and fairly accurate XY, but pretty much your surface height is your is your thing.
00:22:15
John Saunders
turn
00:22:17
johngrimsmo
And it can basically resolve like one nanometer of a height difference.
00:22:23
John Saunders
What is...
00:22:23
johngrimsmo
Which is stupid.
00:22:26
John Saunders
yeah we hear these free terms. It's so easy to get lost. So like, what is... you know, so we deal in 10,007 inch or we think we do at least.
00:22:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:22:35
John Saunders
And then, you know, half that's a 15 million. you hear that number and you hear guys like Renzetti talk about grinding maybe 20 million and they know what they're doing.
00:22:42
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:22:43
John Saunders
So when you go to one nanometer, go ahead.
00:22:44
johngrimsmo
So I'll give... i'll give I'll give you both units just to kind of keep us North American inch people happy.
00:22:49
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:22:51
johngrimsmo
Cause I'm starting to learn both like, well down at the lower range. So you have a 10th and then you have and one 10,000th of an inch.
00:22:56
John Saunders
Okay. 10,000th of an inch. ten thousandth of an inch
00:23:00
johngrimsmo
Uh, one micron is 39 millionths of an inch. So like a 10th is ah hundred millionths of an inch, 100 millionths. Does that make sense?
00:23:15
johngrimsmo
Um,
00:23:15
John Saunders
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going the other way. Yeah, I'm with you.
00:23:17
johngrimsmo
going I'm going deeper.
00:23:17
John Saunders
know
00:23:18
johngrimsmo
So 39 millionths is one micron, which is half a tenth. That's like really small. ah One micron, right? And yeah, I know exactly.
00:23:26
John Saunders
You can't say really small at this point, but yeah.
00:23:29
johngrimsmo
But for machining, for like measuring mics and things like that, like half a tenth is, you know, attainable with hand tools.
00:23:30
John Saunders
Oh yeah.
00:23:34
John Saunders
me
00:23:36
johngrimsmo
um So that's a micron. And then, yeah.
00:23:40
John Saunders
Sorry, can we, can I pause you though?
00:23:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:23:43
John Saunders
So, cause I want to get this right. Cause actually Courtney, our intern, I were just doing this cause we have two different millimus indicators. One is 50 millionths and the other one is one micron.
00:23:50
johngrimsmo
I'm
00:23:52
John Saunders
And she was, she thought we had a problem. Like, no, you have the micron one. So I think it was, is it 25? It's the metric to inches. Like 25 microns is one 10th or something.
00:24:03
John Saunders
Hold on.
00:24:04
johngrimsmo
appreciate it's or whatever.
00:24:04
John Saunders
Let me try it. Isn't that the other way around? Okay.
00:24:08
johngrimsmo
no
00:24:08
John Saunders
20. I'm certainly not.
00:24:12
John Saunders
Yeah, 25 microns is one tenth.
00:24:15
johngrimsmo
Okay, but the other way around,
00:24:17
John Saunders
Yes. What do you want to know?
00:24:18
johngrimsmo
one
00:24:19
John Saunders
One tenth?
00:24:19
johngrimsmo
one micron one micron is 39 millionths of an inch.
00:24:22
John Saunders
Sure. That's correct. Yep.
00:24:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah. So a 50 millionths indicator and a one micron indicator are almost the same thing, with the micron indicator being 10 millionths more accurate.
00:24:25
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:24:31
johngrimsmo
So
00:24:32
John Saunders
Okay. I'm with you. when
00:24:34
johngrimsmo
a nanometer is a thousand times smaller than a micron.
00:24:37
John Saunders
Oh my God. Are you serious?
00:24:38
johngrimsmo
A thousand times is one nanometer.
00:24:40
John Saunders
Thousand. Oh, so then where does that, where, what is a nanometer relative to like an electron or an atom or whatever?
00:24:40
johngrimsmo
yeah So... so I don't really know that far down, but and I know that light, like each color of light has a different thickness of nanometer rating.
00:24:48
John Saunders
Okay. was curious.
00:24:55
johngrimsmo
um So UV light is like 400 ish nanometer. The wave thickness, the thickness of the wave of light is about 400 nanometer.
00:25:01
John Saunders
Okay. The amplitude, if I using the fancy word, maybe.
00:25:04
johngrimsmo
and peak to peak of the wave or whatever it is.
00:25:06
John Saunders
Okay.
00:25:07
johngrimsmo
um
00:25:07
John Saunders
Okay.
00:25:08
johngrimsmo
Green light like we use in a monochromatic light source is 550 ish nanometers.
00:25:13
John Saunders
Okay.
00:25:13
johngrimsmo
And then you get up into the red lights and ultraviolet like um infrared lights that are more in the 900 nanometer range. So.
00:25:19
John Saunders
So they're actually bigger sine waves, whatever you call it, right wave.
00:25:21
johngrimsmo
Yes. Exactly.
00:25:23
John Saunders
Okay. Yeah. Huh.
00:25:24
johngrimsmo
So as you go up the rainbow, i don't know if it's the rainbow exactly, but like it's like blue, green, yellow, red. are the, and they get bigger and bigger in nanometer thickness of the light of wave.
00:25:33
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:25:35
johngrimsmo
Now, basically 500 nanometers is a wave of light. Like it's so small.
00:25:44
John Saunders
Well, I don't know i don't what I'm talking about here. I don't know that that's – light isn't a physical property. I think you're just i think it's just the the the the height, peak-to-peak, happens to correspond with that.
00:25:56
John Saunders
But you still don't see it.
00:25:56
johngrimsmo
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:57
John Saunders
I mean, it could be a three-thousandth of an inch or three-meter light where you still wouldn't see it. It's just how it moves.
00:26:02
johngrimsmo
True.
00:26:04
John Saunders
But, okay, continue.
00:26:05
johngrimsmo
But yeah, like visible light is, is you do see it.
00:26:09
John Saunders
Touche, you do see it. You know what I mean.
00:26:11
johngrimsmo
So when you're using an optical flat, super flat glass on a shiny surface that is flat, and you're seeing the fringe pattern, that is light bouncing top to bottom, top to bottom within that gap that you're creating, that wedge.
00:26:24
johngrimsmo
And if you get it just right, you'll have no bands because you've driven out all the air.
00:26:26
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:26:28
johngrimsmo
And now you are less than 500 nanometers away from each other.
00:26:33
John Saunders
I thought if you got it right, it was the bands were just parallel, not curved.
00:26:33
johngrimsmo
which is insane.
00:26:36
johngrimsmo
No, if if the two flats are straight, but still tilted towards each other, you'll get a bunch of lines. If you get the flats absolutely parallel and like kind of rung together kind of thing, all the bands will go away and there'll be like none.
00:26:43
John Saunders
Got it.
00:26:47
John Saunders
Got it.
00:26:50
John Saunders
So this Zygo thing sounds like a digital optical glass.
00:26:54
johngrimsmo
Optical flat. It is exactly that.
00:26:55
John Saunders
Dude, no kidding.
00:26:56
johngrimsmo
Exactly that. So the Zygo one was about 100,000, which is a lot less than I thought.
00:26:58
John Saunders
how How much? Okay.
00:27:04
johngrimsmo
We thought it'd be like half a million kind of thing.
00:27:06
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:27:06
johngrimsmo
So anyway, we took an engraved um flatland pattern Norseman, and I wanted to like see the quality of the sidewall of the engraving tool. It's only engraving down three thousandths of an inch with a tapered engraver.
00:27:19
johngrimsmo
and uh we could resolve that entire trough and valley and we could see every cusp height on the bottom floor where the tip of the ball is not doing much and we could see the the wall finish on the side of the wall and you can basically end up with a 3d image of your scanning zone which is very small like one or two millimeters in diameter and you can see everything And I'm like, oh my gosh, I want this.
00:27:41
John Saunders
It's crazy, John.
00:27:44
johngrimsmo
So then he's like, let me see your knife. This is another example, like the applications guy. He's like, this is another thing we use this machine for in the knife world. He took my knife, he opened it, he laid it down, edge pointing towards the microscope.
00:27:56
johngrimsmo
And he's like, i want to see your edge quality, but head on.
00:27:59
John Saunders
Yeah, right.
00:28:00
johngrimsmo
And he's like, what do you think? I don't know. It's going to be a point, like two bevels that come to a point and yeah, it'll be kind of dull because it's used or whatever. It turns out if you take your fingers together and put them into a point, like a ah triangle thing, yeah.
00:28:12
John Saunders
Yeah, like the church steeple. Yeah, yeah. That's
00:28:15
johngrimsmo
um That's what you think it should be like. But he's like, which way do you guys sharpen the blade? Do you go towards the belt or away from the belt? Or we have a stone that's rotating. um I go, I don't know because I'm not the one sharpening.
00:28:27
johngrimsmo
But he said,
00:28:27
John Saunders
where we're supposed to go toward it.
00:28:29
johngrimsmo
But I think we're actually going away. And um he proved that by looking at this. If I take my fingers together and then I bend all my fingertips and create a valley in the in the middle, that's what our edge looks like in the nanometer scale.
00:28:41
John Saunders
Hmm.
00:28:44
John Saunders
Like a U?
00:28:44
johngrimsmo
there is There is a valley in the middle of the edge, edge, edge because we're sharpening away. So we're shoving material towards the apex on both sides.
00:28:54
John Saunders
oh my God.
00:28:54
johngrimsmo
and and creating this valley and i can't remember what he said the depth was but i was like blowing my mind and what cyrus is able to do but i'm gonna diy one yeah what i really wanted for is surface finish analysis um quantifying toolpath strategy vibration things like that and um
00:29:01
John Saunders
you you can't you You can't buy one of these, John.
00:29:06
John Saunders
No, but you'll never ship a single product again.
00:29:16
John Saunders
No, I, this is super awesome.
00:29:20
johngrimsmo
And I was talking with the guys about practical applications and they're like, yes, you can always go too far and never, nothing's ever going to be good enough and things like that. But you can also quantify being like, if we tumble the part for 10 minutes, we get this actual measured result.
00:29:35
johngrimsmo
If we tumble it for an hour, we get this actual measured result.
00:29:37
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:29:38
johngrimsmo
Why are we tumbling for an hour when 10 minutes gets us the proper same result kind of thing? So you can start to quantify these real reasons. Yeah. um And you know how a profilometer gives you a surface roughness average across a line?
00:29:51
John Saunders
hope you're
00:29:52
johngrimsmo
This gives you an SA value, which is a surface average on the viewable surface area.
00:29:58
John Saunders
already sure.
00:29:59
johngrimsmo
you know Like not just a line, but a whole surface.
00:30:01
John Saunders
hope there you sure
00:30:02
johngrimsmo
And it can resolve every scratch. um And another problem we often have is somewhere between surface grinding, heat treat, lapping, things like that, like we're achieving flatness all day long.
00:30:14
johngrimsmo
Sometimes an errant grit of surface grinder wheel causes a gouge that's too deep with this machine. I could literally measure how deep it is, how deep we're going to have to lap it out, how if if's the scrap blade, because we can't lap that far or not, and just save everybody a whole lot of time.
00:30:23
John Saunders
Oh my God. Yeah.
00:30:29
johngrimsmo
So i'm like, yes, I want this so bad.
00:30:31
John Saunders
How, i mean, I'm assuming that building a DIY like Cyrus is doing is nuts. Is it completely nuts or just like pretty nuts?
00:30:38
johngrimsmo
No, it's actually incredibly straightforward. Like it's work. I've been spending a lot of hours to be researching it. um He's got some good videos and there's other guys, Huguen Optics on YouTube that has some amazing videos. so You really got to wrap your head around like what's happening, why it's doing it. And there's some software side that I haven't gone into yet.
00:30:55
johngrimsmo
But Cyrus is happy to hold my hand through this and just wants to see more people using it. And I feel like I could do it for under a thousand bucks.
00:31:03
John Saunders
Super cool, John.
00:31:08
John Saunders
What?
00:31:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah, just with like eBay mirrors and bleams beam splitters and reflectors.
00:31:11
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:31:13
johngrimsmo
And what I want to use is I want to use my Zeiss microscope as the recorder, as the microscope, as the thing, because already have it it. I spent a lot of money on it.
00:31:21
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:31:22
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, can I just build an interferometer under it? And it can be the optics. And I think it's totally possible. So that saves me from having to buy a camera, a microscope lens, all that stuff.
00:31:31
John Saunders
hundred yeah
00:31:33
johngrimsmo
And I already have now a stage. Now I'm just building a light source, beam splitter, a reference mirror, and my part sample and some movement things in line ah to get this done.
00:31:44
johngrimsmo
So it's going to be super exciting.
00:31:46
John Saunders
Dude, I actually love this idea. Sorry.
00:31:50
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, we're good.
00:31:50
John Saunders
maybe maybe im maybe i'm not Maybe I'm not supposed to endorse it, but like this is cool.
00:31:52
johngrimsmo
Thank you. No, thank you. Yeah, because we have our microscope that goes up to 50 times zoom and I'm often at full zoom wishing I had more wishing I could see a profile, a surface, a dent, a scratch and and know it more.
00:32:03
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:32:06
johngrimsmo
And like we have our CMM, but like this is different.
00:32:06
John Saunders
When it's, a microscope is, even if it's a binocular scope, is still very limited in its depth of field and understanding. This sounds like it actually is able to use the beam reflection to understand true depth features. Is that?
00:32:20
johngrimsmo
Topology, absolutely.
00:32:21
John Saunders
Yeah. Okay. not to I might have got a great job explaining it, but yeah.
00:32:22
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. If you have a scratch, you can not only measure how deep it is, how wide it is, but you can see the surface finish of the wall of that scratch.
00:32:31
John Saunders
Yeah. That's cool, John.
00:32:32
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, oh my gosh.
00:32:34
John Saunders
That's really cool.
00:32:35
johngrimsmo
So anyway, that's my hyper obsession right now. um Some other stuff. know how the current HD is hydrostatic ways?
00:32:45
John Saunders
I do. Mm-hmm.
00:32:46
johngrimsmo
So it has pressurized oil that's that it's riding on like an air bearing. um
00:32:50
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:32:51
johngrimsmo
And it also has linear motors, which are magnetically driven motors. What I think I learned it two years ago here, but ah they reinforced it again. The magnets of the linear motors provide 1000 kilograms of downforce, attracting the the sliding way to the base.
00:33:05
John Saunders
It's crazy.
00:33:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:33:09
John Saunders
but But that's the only thing that's connecting them. There's no mechanical otherwise.
00:33:12
johngrimsmo
Exactly. So you have that.
00:33:13
John Saunders
The Z axis would just fall off, I think.
00:33:16
johngrimsmo
I don't know.
00:33:18
John Saunders
ah I remember them explaining it when they assemble it. It's like this awkward stage, but anyway, there must be.
00:33:22
johngrimsmo
i think I think there's a break for the Z axis. There has to be um because you can cut power and it's fine.
00:33:26
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:33:28
John Saunders
Right.
00:33:28
johngrimsmo
but But they were saying... the the thousand pounds plus the weight of the objects themselves which are not light thousand kilograms so one metric ton of force is pulling these two parts together and the hydrostatic waves are pushing them apart and there's this you know relationship between that keeps the gap at like seven seven microns uh thickness which is like five microns is two tenths so we're talking you know three and a half tenths between these two sliding parts across a 20 inch sliding zone
00:33:42
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:33:54
John Saunders
yeah
00:34:00
johngrimsmo
It's nuts.
00:34:01
John Saunders
That's what Marv showed us last time ah we were there last summer. And what was fun is he was very open about it because I believe they filed a patent. So it's actually out there.
00:34:11
John Saunders
Like other folks can't commercially use it, but the they're not hiding behind the science of it.
00:34:16
johngrimsmo
Night.
00:34:16
John Saunders
And it's it's not a Venturi, but it's some orifice that is manufactured to a tolerance that they can achieve that allows them to relatively cost efficiently build this hydrostatic system that can do what you just said, like a film layer across a huge surface area that is, I mean, it's as close to perfect as perfect it can be.
00:34:34
John Saunders
It's cool.
00:34:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. So, so it was great. The drive home was, um, i bought a lathe on the drive home.
00:34:43
John Saunders
ha yeah
00:34:44
johngrimsmo
but
00:34:45
John Saunders
I saw. It's cute.
00:34:45
johngrimsmo
I saw your, your unsubscribe. Um, yeah, yeah, it's cute. It's good.
00:34:50
John Saunders
yeah To be clear, if anyone didn't see it, Grimsmo buys a desktop unimat and then proceeds to post a picture of him holding a DeWalt cordless drill with a Dremel bit as he's hand grinding something.
00:34:58
johngrimsmo
but
00:35:02
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:35:04
johngrimsmo
yeah exactly i like spinning things i haven't actually seen that podcast episode yet but i did see the edit um so how was that right
00:35:06
John Saunders
yeah Did you see? Oh, of course you saw. You were part of it. This Spencer Webb shenanigans. the Yeah.
00:35:19
John Saunders
Well... I didn't know, ah had maybe like a 1% inkling, but it also was like pretty arrogant to think it was about you. So I just didn't, but then Spencer was like, hey, will you come on the live? And then I was like, well, okay, we'll see what this is about.
00:35:31
John Saunders
And then ah I thought it was hilarious. And yeah, I mean, it's just a funny joke.
00:35:34
johngrimsmo
Good.
00:35:37
John Saunders
I was impressed that the degree with which he took it. and I think Yvonne's posting a video clip on our Insta now.
00:35:40
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:35:43
johngrimsmo
Oh, amazing.
00:35:44
johngrimsmo
Good.
00:35:44
John Saunders
um But a tip of the hat to everybody who was a good sport about putting Saunders lathework stickers or magnets on their equipment.
00:35:51
johngrimsmo
Oh, yeah.
00:35:53
johngrimsmo
I have one on my fridge at home right now. Okay.
00:35:58
John Saunders
But he actually, i mean, I'm assuming if folks listen to this podcast, they'll probably see it on our or someone else's social, but they actually redesigned the Saunders Machine Works logo. So it looks like a high speed steel ground lathe bit, which is just even more offensive.
00:36:11
johngrimsmo
nice
00:36:12
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah. On a serious note before, because I want to hear more about, you said you've got more in the shot, but... um Through a random happenstance of events, well, the two main ones mean I broke my phone.
00:36:27
John Saunders
So my top of my screen is cracked and the phone's okay. It needs to be replaced. And I was waiting until the new phone came out this week to just go ahead and buy the new instead of the old one.
00:36:38
John Saunders
um But it meant my face ID hasn't worked for like two, three weeks.
00:36:42
johngrimsmo
Hmm. Hmm.
00:36:42
John Saunders
And which is minorly inconvenient for certain logins like to accounts, but it's actually been a great impetus. And some of this is like more personal life stuff, but, uh, I made a bunch of changes that I'm loving. And so if anybody else wants to go down this path, I'm going to just feed the you know fuel on the fire.
00:36:58
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:36:58
John Saunders
So my wife and I leave our phones in another room or not in our bedroom at night anymore. just, and then you don't scroll at night or morning. Like you just don't, don't use any more. Um, I haven't had social media apps on my phone and for a long time, except Instagram, which I'm guilty of scrolling too much sometimes.
00:37:14
John Saunders
Um, but then I, Um, I found myself, actually there was a, um, part of what I was just prompted. This was a, I go like a Harvard, uh, business school video from a guy, a six minute video on like our brains are designed to, to enjoy the downtime. And we've, we've betrayed our own intellectual progress as a society by anytime you have a second, like a webpage is loading slow. I'm going to the bathroom.
00:37:40
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:37:40
John Saunders
I'm waiting somewhere.
00:37:40
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:37:41
John Saunders
i just, you pull your phone out and you scroll. And I wanted to stop that even just as an experiment. Um, And so not having FaceTime, leaving it somewhere else, deleting a bunch of the apps. And then I also logged out of all of my accounts that I would check, chronically check on our main computers. and I have a remote computer that I don't use very often, but it's always on.
00:38:00
John Saunders
So I have them on there. So if I need to go check something like LinkedIn, like I don't need to be on LinkedIn. I can check it twice a week whatever. I have to like remote into that computer to check it. um So some of this is just my own a disciplinary mechanism for myself.
00:38:12
John Saunders
um And
00:38:12
johngrimsmo
I like it.
00:38:13
John Saunders
And maybe I'll go backwards some, but I thought I'm going to do this for at least a month.
00:38:17
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:38:17
John Saunders
ah I also don't check our customer service platform anymore. I need to. it wasn't appropriate for me to be involved in that because we've got a team, we've got people who do that and I just shouldn't be meddling in it. And to be fair, sometimes we get tickets that upset me.
00:38:34
John Saunders
um You get customers that are, you know, totally inappropriate, they're yelling and they're mad. And I need to be able to weigh in and say, hey, no, we need to write this wrong. we We did something that, you know, whatever.
00:38:46
John Saunders
um
00:38:46
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:38:47
John Saunders
And say objective and not look at the noise of, you it does tick me off sometimes when people are just like, the The one that comes to mind without betraying any customer specifics was we had an international order.
00:38:59
John Saunders
It was, in my opinion, relatively well packaged in a way we packaged many international orders. It got like, it got like drop kicked and we of course would have replaced it.
00:39:07
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:39:09
John Saunders
But the way the customer was like irate and um demanding certain things and, Some of it could also be lost in translation, but literally, like you know non-English speaking stuff.
00:39:19
John Saunders
But anyway, I'll leave it at that.
00:39:20
johngrimsmo
no Yeah.
00:39:22
John Saunders
It's been great to have a detox from that. And I now, actually, I should get some saga books from you. I leave all those trade show notebooks around. Like I have one in my bathroom. I have one in my ah bedroom because when I want to just think of something instead of grabbing my phone, I just write down a piece of paper now.
00:39:35
johngrimsmo
yeah Well, as we say in our house, that's output, not just input. So doom scrolling Instagram is input. um Whereas output is like writing down your own thoughts, thinking, them doing doing something, building something, drawing something, creating something.
00:39:49
John Saunders
Yeah, I like that. Sure.
00:39:53
johngrimsmo
um So especially with our kids at 12 and 15, Clara is great at the output.
00:39:53
John Saunders
That is good.
00:39:59
johngrimsmo
Leif is not not so great at the output.
00:39:59
John Saunders
Yes.
00:40:00
johngrimsmo
We talked about that this morning with him. He's great at input, but it's like, I'd love to see you like,
00:40:06
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:07
johngrimsmo
Do all these things you talk about, like build something, do something, go somewhere.
00:40:11
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:12
johngrimsmo
So love it. And then with your detox, you get to see as you trickle things back in, like what really matters to you. Cause we get so hung up on just, Oh, this is what I do.
00:40:20
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:21
johngrimsmo
This is what I always do. I always check this. I always check this. I, you know, I don't need to.
00:40:24
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:26
John Saunders
Yeah. And I don't want to repeat myself or sit here wax poetic, but like Instagram and the machining community, we're all better off for it. I like being a member of it, but you pre algorithm when you could control what you feed.
00:40:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:37
John Saunders
Great. Now that's not what it is anymore. And I, um, you I'm not gonna, I thought about leaving it. Um, And I always have rationalized it by saying, oh, we need it for our business. But like, that's probably a non real excuse because even my wife posts on it.
00:40:53
John Saunders
But I also didn't want to be a member of a community where we just post for our own business game. Like you need to see our product being used because it's like fun to be an organic part of the community.
00:40:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:41:02
John Saunders
But um anyway.
00:41:03
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:41:06
John Saunders
I'll shut up. It's been great. So anyone else who wants to consider doing it, great.
00:41:07
johngrimsmo
Good.
00:41:09
John Saunders
And like we went over a friend's house and we were outside. i just left my phone in the car. Like if somebody, like nobody needs to call me. Actually, sort of, super ironically, we a,
00:41:17
johngrimsmo
Oh my gosh.
00:41:19
John Saunders
we were we had a a bonfire it got super smoky, blew smoke sideways. And then a neighbor had a tree fall down on a yard. Pure coincidence. Somebody drove by and thought the house was on fire.
00:41:28
johngrimsmo
Oh my gosh.
00:41:29
John Saunders
Called the fire department. The owner of the house texts me and is like, hey, is my house on fire?
00:41:32
johngrimsmo
be
00:41:34
John Saunders
And this is the first time in my adult life I've actually deliberately intentionally left my phone in a place where I cannot have access to it. and it's not my responsibility to, know, but i I had to laugh at the irony of that.
00:41:44
johngrimsmo
ah But yeah, they're waiting for a response. but my gosh. Yeah, exactly. So, well, good.
00:41:54
John Saunders
Sorry. ah Okay. what you I know we're 42 minutes in, but you had said you had a bunch going on the shop.
00:42:00
johngrimsmo
Yeah, a couple soft things. So the the argon gas in Heat Treat, I've got some more results than that.
00:42:03
John Saunders
right
00:42:04
johngrimsmo
We talked about the paper last week.
00:42:06
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:42:07
johngrimsmo
So the paper puffed up the bag, made it weird. um Somebody DMed me on Instagram and said paper has a moisture content and like you're putting the paper in the bag is come maybe adding moisture to the environment on the inside.
00:42:20
johngrimsmo
And I was like, interesting.
00:42:21
John Saunders
Which is bad.
00:42:22
johngrimsmo
which is theoretically bad um because the argon bags with paper were ah like puffing up and then collapsing and shrinking and and shriveling and like crunching and therefore not flat anymore, or letting in some weird oxygen. i don't know exactly what happened, but it was bad results.
00:42:39
johngrimsmo
So then Larry took the paper out, did a couple more ah argon tests and got pretty good results. But sometimes the bags will puff up so much that they won't quench properly afterwards between our aluminum plates.
00:42:49
John Saunders
Oh, interesting.
00:42:50
johngrimsmo
that's not great either um so we're trying to find out but what what it is and then just last night i was on a walk and i texted larry like i stopped pulled up my phone i texted larry i was like what about the the talcum powder that we use because we've been using baby powder which is talcum powder and perfume um it it keeps the blade from sticking to the bag so we've always just dab the part with some talcum powder on it and then put it in the bag and then
00:42:51
John Saunders
Sure.
00:43:10
John Saunders
z
00:43:16
johngrimsmo
It turns out talcum powder absorbs moisture like crazy. Like that's its job is to absorb moisture.
00:43:20
John Saunders
Yeah, okay.
00:43:21
johngrimsmo
So we're literally introducing moisture into the bags now. And I'm like, hmm. So I texted him and he's like, it's another variable. All right Happy to test it on a scrap blade.
00:43:28
John Saunders
Yeah, right.
00:43:29
johngrimsmo
Maybe the bags will stick. Maybe it's not a problem anymore. Maybe our blades are cleaner now than they were 10 years ago when I learned this rule. So like, I don't know. um So that's the update there.
00:43:40
johngrimsmo
The graphite fixture worked quite well.
00:43:42
John Saunders
Good.
00:43:43
johngrimsmo
um Yeah, it supports the button. The buttons that did dent and were weird came out great. They came out a little blacker than I expected, um but they're hard.
00:43:48
John Saunders
Okay.
00:43:52
johngrimsmo
They're 63 and a half Rockwell. um
00:43:55
johngrimsmo
So that's good. And what's interesting is the corner of the graphite chipped away a little bit. And the part of the bag where that was rubbing is like thin. And I'm like, is there some weird chemical reaction between the graphite and the fic and the the bag?
00:43:55
John Saunders
That's crazy.
00:44:11
johngrimsmo
Because it's like worn through and i don't know if oxygen got in or whatever. So that's kind of weird. oh
00:44:17
John Saunders
well you Will you do me a favor? Call or email that company because I think I buy the bags from the company you buy them from.
00:44:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, backpack.
00:44:24
John Saunders
i don't Yeah, there's not that many. I'm sure that they were like, there's they have some, it's probably on there, thank you. The bags and are partially consumed by the process.
00:44:34
johngrimsmo
Yes.
00:44:35
John Saunders
Okay.
00:44:36
johngrimsmo
especially on the outside. That's why they turn black. And then the bag consumes any remaining oxygen on the inside, as well as your part does.
00:44:39
John Saunders
Okay.
00:44:43
johngrimsmo
But yeah, but The graphite bag mixture, i don't know if it was an abrasion where it like rubbed or whatever, um but it wore away the corner of the graphite and it it made the bag thinner and it looks kind of flaky in that spot.
00:44:51
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:44:53
John Saunders
Hot spot.
00:45:00
johngrimsmo
So I suggested to Larry to have like a sacrificial bag within the bag, just like some little layers of sheet metal.
00:45:05
John Saunders
Yeah. Double bag it.
00:45:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah, basically, um to see if that'll help. um But he's getting marginally better results with the Argon now that he's kind of figuring it out, but nothing like mind blowing, like, oh, the parts are still silver coming out.
00:45:18
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:45:20
johngrimsmo
um So we're still learning. We're still learning. It's interesting.
00:45:28
johngrimsmo
um Last thing I'll talk about is the the button on our fjell, which we've got heat treat problems. I've got geometry things I'm working on. think I have to detent perfectly figured out, but the lock side of it, it's still sticking.
00:45:43
johngrimsmo
Like when you open the knife and the button comes up to lock the knife,
00:45:45
John Saunders
yes yes
00:45:47
johngrimsmo
it it sometimes will stick on the top side and when you click on it with your finger sometimes it'll have a little click like it's it's wedged it's stuck and that is a combination of hardness geometry surface finish taper angle and the button interacting with the titanium bore and it's all of those things
00:45:56
John Saunders
Okay.
00:46:06
John Saunders
who
00:46:08
johngrimsmo
So I had Jeff make some new buttons with a better bore relationship um and also different locking angles. So we've been stuck at six degrees included since I designed the knife.
00:46:19
johngrimsmo
And that is apparently right on the edge of what a locking taper should be.
00:46:23
John Saunders
okay
00:46:23
johngrimsmo
Like imagine imagine a one degree taper, it's going wedge. It's going like get stuck.
00:46:28
John Saunders
Yes.
00:46:29
johngrimsmo
Right.
00:46:29
johngrimsmo
Whereas a 45 degree taper is just going to touch and bounce off and like, but it could fall.
00:46:29
John Saunders
Yes.
00:46:30
John Saunders
Where's it?
00:46:33
John Saunders
Yeah. 89 degrees would be like a sidewalk. You're walking along it.
00:46:35
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:46:36
John Saunders
Okay. Okay.
00:46:36
johngrimsmo
And that would that would fail in a locking environment.
00:46:36
John Saunders
I'm with you.
00:46:39
John Saunders
Right.
00:46:40
johngrimsmo
So what is industry called a locking taper is five to seven degrees or something like that. Anything under that is going to lock. But it all depends on surface finish, hardness, geometry, things like that.
00:46:51
johngrimsmo
So I had Jeff make some six degrees, seven degree, and eight degree buttons just so I can like broad spectrum test this. And i I took a six, which is what we're using. I put it in the knife, and it kind of sticks.
00:47:03
johngrimsmo
And then I took an eight, and I put in the knife, and no stick whatsoever.
00:47:08
John Saunders
But does it fit? trying to think, what would the be the right question?
00:47:10
johngrimsmo
I don't know yet.
00:47:11
John Saunders
Okay, okay.
00:47:11
johngrimsmo
So i'm I'm at that stage where I'm like, I have some information that looking promising. Will it fail if I spine whack the knife and try to fail it or something like that? I don't know yet, but I'm on the right track, which is great.
00:47:23
John Saunders
Good, okay, making note.
00:47:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:47:27
John Saunders
Taper lock up angle on Fjell. That is a great segue to the one thing I did want to say, which is a business call to action, which is our expanding pins, the half inch variant are now for sale.
00:47:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:47:40
John Saunders
um
00:47:40
johngrimsmo
Ooh, exciting.
00:47:41
John Saunders
So we are selling them. Alex is in charge of this. i think there is a beta discount. So if you want that, and this i think it's probably on the site, but if it's not, you can email us. um And then we're taking sort of user requests for the the next um sizes.
00:47:55
John Saunders
The end goal will be to have these in ranges i I don't know what the smallest and largest will be, but something like quarter inch up to one inch where they're in in stock available to purchase in stock on the shelf without the user requiring to machine them like to their size.
00:48:12
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:48:13
John Saunders
Um,
00:48:14
johngrimsmo
In nominal sizes.
00:48:16
John Saunders
An inch nominal and metric nominal sizes will be, the that's kind of like informal business plan, if you will.
00:48:18
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:48:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:48:22
John Saunders
um There are some quirks because at certain certain sizes are the same model with just minor changes. And then certain sizes, you change the screw or you change the geometry and so forth.
00:48:32
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:48:34
John Saunders
But um what made me think of your locking angle is... I printed this almost on a whim and we have used this almost every time we brought up this product to look at talking about the access, the slots, internal turning, interfaces, fitments.
00:48:47
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:48:49
John Saunders
It's like printing something at 300, 500% like this is just the best.
00:48:50
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:48:54
johngrimsmo
Even before you pulled out that model, I was going to request that you put up a one minute YouTube video where you just gush about that.
00:49:01
John Saunders
Okay. Wait, about this?
00:49:02
johngrimsmo
I think, yeah, it's just about the bigger model and explain this and what we're making.
00:49:03
John Saunders
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
00:49:06
johngrimsmo
We're making these pins and we need to see these things and the slots.
00:49:06
John Saunders
Okay.
00:49:08
johngrimsmo
And it's like, that would be very enjoyable to watch in like low effort.
00:49:09
John Saunders
I will do that. I will do that.
00:49:13
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:49:15
John Saunders
um 3X expanding pin. And even like, um I don't know how much people want to hear about this, but you know, we're making them on the Williman right now. Cycle time is not great and not even a priority at the moment, but the Williman is a very expensive machine to run these on. So we are are thinking about, okay,
00:49:33
John Saunders
you know, sometimes you just got to believe in yourself and Hey, if these take off, what does the plan look like to make 10,000 or 50,000 a year or a month?
00:49:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Right.
00:49:40
John Saunders
And are you doing multi-op machines? Are you transferring them between machines? Are you just getting a dedicated turning? i mean, obviously there's some turning aspects or even God forbid Swiss. Um, but, um, OPS, our ST20Y is up for sale on our Shopify, uh, saunders machineworks.com.
00:49:57
John Saunders
So if anybody wants all the, you know, open book, all the pricing, all the specs, they're just there.
00:49:57
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:50:02
John Saunders
Um, But for now, it's okay to subsidize the part by making on the Wilman because it's a little bit slower, but we have the time on the machine and it works.
00:50:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:12
John Saunders
It makes great parts.
00:50:13
johngrimsmo
Totally. And that's kind of the balance is like, i don't want to call it a prototyping machine, but it's so capable you can make anything on it.
00:50:20
John Saunders
Yeah, that's great.
00:50:20
johngrimsmo
so like to to prototype that part on it is fantastic. And now you have a production process, maybe if it's not the fastest, easiest, best, ah whatever, but it's, yeah, it's very doable.
00:50:29
John Saunders
Yeah. Like we're, this will be your world. We're, we're machining the whole torques, but we definitely should be pre drilling certain areas and then coming with an end all just to finish them up. But rather than add that drill and holder and for now it doesn doesn't matter, but it's fun to look at all the like low hanging fruit of how you can improve a process.
00:50:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:50:43
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:50:47
johngrimsmo
Exactly. Before you get too stuck into the current method.
00:50:52
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah. which is also why we're doing that weekly sit down with everybody, which John, it's been great. We'll talk about, i know we're out of time. We'll talk about it next week. Um, if you want, but, um, been good.
00:51:05
johngrimsmo
Nice. right, man. So what are you up to do?
00:51:09
John Saunders
Um, what am I up to today? Uh, bunch of, you well, um we're making changes. going to make some big changes right here. I'm not ready to share.
00:51:20
John Saunders
I've alluded to it, but um what i have I have probably 10 different fixtures, parts, and so forth on my desk of like redefining workflows.
00:51:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah,
00:51:32
John Saunders
And so we're at the point now where it's kind of weird. We've done... Um, you know we've built the plane. We just, we haven't even flown it, but like, we're good. Like I'm going to start booking flights.
00:51:44
John Saunders
Um, um, so yeah that's what we're working on.
00:51:44
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:51:47
John Saunders
How about you?
00:51:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it sounds like you're at a point where you you're taking the time to step back and be like, okay, we wanna grow, we wanna do different things. How we gonna do this like properly? Cause yeah.
00:51:59
John Saunders
Oh, it's happening. It's, I mean, the, the, I'm not intending to be secretive about it, but, um, the, the, we're going full one piece flow.
00:52:00
johngrimsmo
it
00:52:07
johngrimsmo
Yes.
00:52:07
John Saunders
It's what we're doing.
00:52:09
John Saunders
It's going to be great, period.
00:52:11
johngrimsmo
Awesome, can't wait to hear it along the journey.
00:52:15
John Saunders
How about you?
00:52:16
johngrimsmo
um I am reprogramming RASC hard milling for the critical features, and I'm adding the final critical feature that we've never hard milled, but always kind of struggled with.
00:52:28
John Saunders
This is Kern.
00:52:29
johngrimsmo
This is actually Speedio, ah but it's a ra Rask blade, like the lock face, the D10 hole, the stop pin endpoints, and the pivot hole.
00:52:32
John Saunders
Okay.
00:52:36
John Saunders
Okay.
00:52:39
johngrimsmo
And we've always, well, for a long time, we've hard milled all of them except for the lock face. But since everything moves in heat treat in all kinds of weird ways, we have been fighting it. um And so I'm finalizing the hard milling for that.
00:52:53
johngrimsmo
And we actually had this whole, like, we wrote up a um engineer change request or whatever, where like, I'm adding 10,000 to this lock face as of serial number.
00:53:05
johngrimsmo
This piece of paper has to travel through the entire shop, get signed off by each person because this blade and onward, they're different.
00:53:05
John Saunders
Interesting.
00:53:09
John Saunders
Okay.
00:53:12
johngrimsmo
They can't just run on the same program. So once they get to the speedio red light, this needs to come to me and I need to program it. And that process took like over a month. And I was like, holy cow, that took way too long.
00:53:23
John Saunders
ah different now, right?
00:53:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's different. But so now it's in my plate and I'm holding everybody back and I'm, you know, causing problems because it's not done yet. But I should have that done today. um And it.
00:53:36
John Saunders
Hard milling. Oh, good.
00:53:37
johngrimsmo
ah Yeah, hardly not difficult, but what is taking so much time is properly making mid-process models with the exact amount of stock to leave because I want it to be right.
00:53:47
John Saunders
Yeah. Oh.
00:53:51
johngrimsmo
um And it's so easy just to have sketch driven tool paths and now and a ah really poor original model that is not an accurate representation of parts throughout the stages.
00:54:03
John Saunders
Dude, if you want to, if you want to pour one out or maybe actually you'll probably feel better about yourself. I'll do a private zoom with you and show you the nightmare that has been puck chuck of like trying to do that.
00:54:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:54:13
John Saunders
Cause we used to just do stock to leave. We did, then we did CAD sketches. Then Alex, Alex did a great job. It's just been awkward to implement of like, we have now separate discrete CAD and cam master files for every stage, which is like pre heat treat, pre hard mill, pre grind.
00:54:26
johngrimsmo
Right?
00:54:27
John Saunders
Um, because it is so difficult. So I give you a ton of credit. That's, that's a lot work.
00:54:31
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah, it is lot work, but it's it's worth it, especially with fusion simulation being so good now that you can see, okay, there's 2000 stock to leave. And this is what my tool is going to do. And this is what it's going to look like.
00:54:43
johngrimsmo
And this is how much load I'm putting on my tool, my little, you know, one millimeter hard mill. Like, you don't mess around with that kind of stuff. Like, if it's got, you know, a thou more stock than you think it does, it could break.
00:54:50
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:54:55
John Saunders
Yes. Oh yeah. Right. It's a two 10 step over. So you can't give it five times surprise.
00:55:00
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:55:01
John Saunders
Five times surprise. I am very happy that you have seen the benefit like hard milling post heat treat is just the, the, it's just phenomenal.
00:55:13
johngrimsmo
And the the secret is the secret is more the right tools than anything else.
00:55:13
John Saunders
Like you just get what you want.
00:55:18
John Saunders
Hmm.
00:55:19
johngrimsmo
If you just use a regular off-the-shelf end mill, you can hard mill a couple times, but you won't hold tolerance and you won't, yeah.
00:55:28
John Saunders
I don't know for what it's worth. We use a Haas tooling, which is probably YG1 316s to rough, um which then is then a NS finishes.
00:55:38
John Saunders
And that 316s Haas tool has held up shockingly well.
00:55:38
johngrimsmo
sure yeah
00:55:43
John Saunders
Now, we're not measuring criticals. i will yield that. But um if it I also was not have been – I'm surprised it didn't fail after 10 parts. Yeah.
00:55:53
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah, like we use three-eighths Lakeshore four-flute ball mill to hard mill the Norseman bevels, and we have forever.
00:55:58
John Saunders
her
00:56:01
John Saunders
Yes.
00:56:01
johngrimsmo
And it gets destroyed, but it gets, you know, 20 knives out the door before it does.
00:56:07
John Saunders
Dude, I want to see that. I remember you talked about that tool, how just looks like it got its got punched.
00:56:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:56:11
John Saunders
I want to see that under your new DLI interferometer.
00:56:13
johngrimsmo
Oh, my gosh. All right, bet.
00:56:15
John Saunders
Yeah. Dude, love it.
00:56:18
johngrimsmo
All right, man.
00:56:18
John Saunders
Awesome. I'll see you.
00:56:20
johngrimsmo
Sounds good. Have a good day.