Transcript
John Saunders: Good morning or afternoon. Welcome to the Business of Machining, episode number 426. My name is John Tonders.
johngrimsmo: And my name is John Grimsmo.
John Saunders: Anything is fair game from coolant and water to new indicator stands, to speccing out machine tools, to fusion probing, to macros, to, I'll set you up here, calibrating AROA pallets.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: John and i talk each week about our lives running machine shop.
johngrimsmo: So you want to know about calibrating your raw pellets?
John Saunders: I'm all ears. I want to hear about it.
johngrimsmo: We'll dig in real quick. So I bought the fancy Auroa branded official palette. I haven't tested it or verified or validated it yet, but I have it. And now it's mounted with a pulse stud in the machine, like ready to test whenever I'm ready. But on the other hand, the current's running fine. And it's just like, you know, will I ever get around to this? Well, I have it if I need it
John Saunders: This very much feels like, and I didn't even realize this this was like a theme of ours. This very much feels like a, that was a thing two weeks ago. Like I've i've moved on.
johngrimsmo: Yes. Yeah, I forgot all about it. And even this new palette is now in the palette changer, out of sight, out of mind. You know, there's a good chance I won't even view it for the next few weeks accidentally.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So like, I might just forget about it. Anyway, um I'm pretty sure that my calibration that I did myself is very good. I just kind of wanted the peace of mind of having the proper kit.
John Saunders: Jordan.
johngrimsmo: um It's quality. Everything comes down quality, right? everything comes down to quality right
John Saunders: but So to give me some closure and maybe the audience, when we were, did we did talk about this?
johngrimsmo: sure
John Saunders: I think it was two weeks ago. And you'll probably hopefully remember better than I do of you like were good one way and like two tenths out the other, or wasn't repeating when you rotate. You were, you sounded like you wanted it better, but maybe you didn't. Maybe it was good.
johngrimsmo: Correct.
John Saunders: Maybe you just left it. Okay. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I got it perfectly accurate in the in that position. But if I feel left the palette and I rotated 90 degrees to the next clamping position, which you would never do, um then it goes out.
John Saunders: for
johngrimsmo: So I'm leaning towards it being literally a rotational repeatability accuracy of the Auroa system.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I don't know what the spec is for that.
John Saunders: Got it.
johngrimsmo: um And I'm hoping this calibration palette will prove that to me. Sanity check it.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: which will take three minutes to put an indicator on it and, you know, reclamp it a couple times and sweep it. We'll see. So within the next couple of weeks, I'll have an answer for you just to like close the loop, but make good parts.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: But the current is making good parts. You don't, is that because most of the current work starts from net material?
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: So if it's off two tenths, it doesn't matter.
johngrimsmo: That's part of it.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yep. But on our Fjell handle, because the full five axis side to side flip flop part, centerline has to be centerline like, ideally, otherwise your pockets on each left side will be different than the pockets on the right side, because now they're away from center line.
johngrimsmo: If your Chuck is off center, I think.
John Saunders: Interesting.
John Saunders: Yeah, I don't disagree. i don't, I'm slower about having to think through the physicality of this.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Okay. Well, the, these are these, those gnarly pockets that you don't cover the T slot cutter that do have the sub counterbore pocket that receives the bearing pad.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John Saunders: That's so, okay. Okay. And those are, those are going good.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Yeah. Sweet. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yep. All good. So yeah.
John Saunders: Cool. Okay. I have a bunch of stuff.
johngrimsmo: Good lay on me.
John Saunders: let's bang through it. First off, um, to give some closure on, I think I brought up last week, drilling, um, drilling and seal and dual life.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: We, um, I feel proud. don't know what the objective is. Like it's fun to develop a regiment or a, criteria through which you're going to test it. So like number one thing is just like, just isolate it. So, um, quickly recap, we have a big, big drill called 12 millimeter that just drills blind holes in fixture plates.
John Saunders: And those, um, those holes are drilled after the material is faced. So it's drilling into freshly machined material. ah period. And those drills last great. The same manufacturer drill, slightly smaller diameter, we have significantly inferior to a life because that through hole is poking through the bottom of the material, which still has male mill scale.
John Saunders: I can't prove that the mill scale the issue, but it makes sense both because of what I just described, but also mill drilling through mill scale is just different. it can be quite hard or not even so much that it's hard. It can be inconsistent, sporadic,
John Saunders: kind of like, you know, punching a, yeah, it just is.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: So
johngrimsmo: well in this case you're milling out of mill scale not into mill scale yeah which is an interesting scenario i guess
John Saunders: oh
John Saunders: you're drilling, poking out through the bottom of it. Yes. Yeah.
John Saunders: So first thing we're doing is actually happening coincidentally right now is we're taking that second drill that we've had tool like issues with and we're not drilling through it. We're just keeping the drill 5,000, keeping it blind, leaving it 5,000 high. And then we're just coming back through with an end mill or something else.
John Saunders: Obviously it's quite slow, but we're going to interpolate through the rest of that hole. Cause I don't care about the end mill. And then we'll see, does this solve the problem? Like, so number one, if our thesis is true, it should be, we shouldn't have to do that many fixture plates to realize, great. Now we understand what the problem is.
johngrimsmo: ye
John Saunders: over the, um, for us here in U S we, did you guys have yesterday off Labor Day?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Does that have Oh, okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: So yeah, great. We all a holiday. Um, I had had a note of it's kind of one of those inverse Grimm's where it takes one third the time and instead of three times as long.
johngrimsmo: yeah Okay.
John Saunders: Um, um, I was like, okay, John, what is it going to take to write a custom drill cycle? Like I want to have my own drill, control over like a G whatever, like deep drilling, peck drilling, reaming, but like one on my own.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Is that something I write in Fusion? is it something i write in the post? Is it something that I have to write on the Okuma machine control? Like i was just like, well, look, never been a better time. I'm sure there's websites, resources, blogs, chat, GBT examples.
John Saunders: And so I just start, I pour myself the cup of coffee, I sit down and you, sometimes you got to remind yourself not to be too smart. It's just like, just ask In this case, i don't think I even, um I don't think I even, and didn't even get into ChatGPT because I just went into Fusion.
John Saunders: And um I certainly hope you're guilty of this because it would make me feel better in a weird way.
johngrimsmo: do yeah
John Saunders: But like, you know, we've used this software so long that we're so comfortable that sometimes you just forget to be, to let yourself be a novice and and relax. And so I went to the,
johngrimsmo: look around and
John Saunders: Yeah. So drill, look through the geometry options, the cycle options, drilling cycle. When you hover over it it's actually not the best UI for my opinion for Autodesk. You get an explanation of some of cycle types. You don't see them all, but it says, if you click the i on the bottom left, it takes you to an Autodesk website that explains all the cycles.
John Saunders: What I had been planning to do was find one of these cycles and see if I could kind of interrogate how it's coded or how it handles stuff and then kind of use that as a starting point. Well, There's already a cycle that does exactly what I want.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John Saunders: There's a cycle called breakthrough that allows you to control a dimensioned height from the bottom of your drill, program drill. And at that height, it will then change your feeds and speeds to whatever you want, higher or lower on either one.
johngrimsmo: Interesting. Okay.
John Saunders: Which is great. That means we could take our drill and we could run it through all the good material at our normal feed rate. And then if we wanted to assume slow down on both service footage and feed for tooth for that last 50 thou, you can do it.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: We don't have to do any, no hand coding, no customization, et cetera.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, that sounds great.
John Saunders: Right? i was like, that's a win.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and very um ah consistent and provable you know if you get
John Saunders: Yeah. Yes. um Okay. My next item. i When we put raw material on the, ah we call it up zero.
John Saunders: We will usually cut either machine two features or drill two holes. I don't know. Well, if we drill them, we know where they are. Bear with me here. Here's my example. I want to use probing to see if a part has moved because ah just want to know if we're doing a precarious work holding or something this sort.
John Saunders: And so bingo.
johngrimsmo: Like a before and after move. Yeah. Okay.
John Saunders: And now the thing is that the part isn't necessarily in the perfect spot to begin with. So for I guess for the sake of this example, let's say you're taking a um piece of paper size raw material and let's say there's a hole in that bottom left corner and then hole is always within the same 20 thou center line.
John Saunders: Like it's about within 20 thou every time, but it's not like it's within a thousandth of an inch.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Like it's, it moves a little bit.
johngrimsmo: got.
John Saunders: So you want to come in and I want to have Fusion probe the center of that bore at the very beginning, store it, And then at the end, I wanted to reprove that bore and tell me if it moved.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: This is was on my to-do list this weekend and I didn't get to it. So I'm taking advantage of our phone call to ask you if you've thought of this.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: I know it would be easy to do if you just want to probe a known feature and sort of say, hey, does that match the CAD model? um But this is, I think, different. Does that make sense?
johngrimsmo: Do you want to know how I would tackle that?
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So at least with hide nine cycles and I mean all cycles. Anyway, if say the hole is at minus one minus one inch, right?
johngrimsmo: And you know that there's a way to type your probing cycle to be like, here's your position. And then it puts the difference, the the positional variation into other macro variables.
johngrimsmo: So whatever it is, 912 or whatever, um will tell you two tenths why five tenths X.
John Saunders: OK. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um And that's the answer you're looking for, is it not?
John Saunders: Actually, yes. Now that we talked through this, I just realized this is on a Akuma, which is not, doesn't use geity forward but let's say it does. so In Fusion, I can probe a feature, but instead of updating G54, which is my main state work offset, I can just have it update G59 on the first.
johngrimsmo: I see the difference.
John Saunders: So you can update on the first one, which means Fusion's not going to care where... that bore is within 50 thou because it's just you need to get the probe into the tip or probe tip into the hole and then it'll be able to update g fifty nine And G59 is only there for the sake of documenting this change.
johngrimsmo: Oh.
John Saunders: Then what I can do at the end of the program is go in and use g fifty nine to do a validation point of figure what it's called infusion where you can say, hey, does my part match spec?
johngrimsmo: Sure.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
johngrimsmo: he
John Saunders: compare what it probes right now against what I had saved as a G59. That way I'm not involving my main GT4 work offset. This should work fine.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and and you're not hand coding anything, which is totally how I would do it.
John Saunders: Perfect.
John Saunders: Yeah, no, no, it's exactly great.
johngrimsmo: Perfect.
John Saunders: um Thank you. I'm
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: making a note, for...
johngrimsmo: Is this a sanity check or is it kind of sketchy work holding curiosity, want to know sort of thing?
John Saunders: um It is both. No, it's we do an op zero where we we do barely hold on to the material to get some reference datums added. And we want to do a little bit more and i think we'll be okay with that.
John Saunders: and I really wanted to add indicators on the part, but we use enough coolant where we, and I can't turn the coolant off because of the thing like tapping and drilling. It's just, it's not worth it.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: I was like, can I put a coolant in like a Ziploc bag? Or can I put an indicator in a Ziploc bag? But I realized, what are you doing, John? Just probe it. You'll be fine.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: That'll work. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Assuming the work piece doesn't dimensionally warp or something, i don't know what you're making, but yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah, that won't. That'll be okay there. yeah oh Well, dude, we're banging through it. um
johngrimsmo: Good, yeah.
John Saunders: My other question is gonna be about your brothers, but um I should defer to what...
johngrimsmo: I only have one brother, both both in real life and machine.
John Saunders: So you have two brothers, Eric and How's S500 doing?
johngrimsmo: um do have two brothers, dang it. Yes, exactly. What is your question specifically? Eric's doing fine.
John Saunders: how's yours how how's s five hundred doing
johngrimsmo: S500 Brother is good. Our main guy that runs it is just coming back from a canoeing trip, so he's off today. um But Angelo's running it, and he was actually saying, he's like, look, I know how to run this, but I still, I want more process sheets so that I can come up here and be confident that this program is the latest one for this part, because I have to, like...
John Saunders: no Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I feel like I'm guessing a little bit more than I should. i want this to be more outlined so that any of us can come up and do the work.
John Saunders: Yeah, I love it
johngrimsmo: And that was very valid. And it that's a perfect example of obviously a capable person switching shoes with another capable person and having enough clarity to pull it off.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Yes. Kind of reminds me like those TV shows and I don't know if how valuable it is versus just hokey TV show content where it's like, employee does the boss's job and boss does the employee's job, but just kind of role switching to help you, um, in a weird way.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: That's if what we've been doing with those cam sit downs. It wasn't, well, there was the intent, but i mean, the intent was like, Hey, let's look through parts. Let's interrogate best practices.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John Saunders: Let's share what we've learned. but it also involves a little bit of, um, seeing each other's stuff.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. a little bit back and forth. But mechanically, the Speedio is a total rock star.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I really, really like the machine.
John Saunders: That's good to hear. You feel like the build quality is great.
johngrimsmo: I think it's fantastic. It's...
John Saunders: I mean, you have some nice machines.
johngrimsmo: different like one nitpicky thing i heard it today when it's doing a very small very small engraving you know the little ball mill goes down and then it lifts up in rapid but not far 20 thou or something lifts up goes down feeds down lifts up and on the lift up it kind of makes this like chunk noise
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: And it's always done that, even from new. And I don't know if that's a speedio thing or just a My Machine thing. There's no backlash in Z, but it seems like it sounds like there is backlash.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Or maybe it's just it's so fast that when it has to move 20,000, it just goes chunk.
John Saunders: Yeah, right, right. Hmm.
johngrimsmo: um That's my only kind of minor complaint, but it makes no difference. it just I hear it.
John Saunders: Okay. yeah Not like tool life or it's not walking.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Do you have a bolted to the floor?
johngrimsmo: No. No.
John Saunders: and Interesting.
johngrimsmo: it's It's on four feet, and they're maybe four-inch diameter cast-iron pucks, and they have sandpaper on the bottom of them.
John Saunders: Like you put sandpaper or y'all or
johngrimsmo: No, they came like that.
John Saunders: was funny.
johngrimsmo: And our floors are like beautiful epoxy, and I'm like, no, I hope I don't have to move this machine.
John Saunders: there'
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Well, the good news is you'll know if it moves because you have a little sanded.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John Saunders: ah
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Do you have, and you have you do have both a table probe and a spindle probe?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I have a table laser and a spindle probe.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, for our grinding wheel.
John Saunders: And did you do table laser spindle probe and are they both bloom?
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John Saunders: Okay. Couldn't remember. There was something about the Renishal bloom mix that some people do.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, some people use, what is it, Renishaw macros on Bloom probes or the other way around or something.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um Yeah, but Renishaw stuff's great too.
John Saunders: Maybe I swear.
John Saunders: And then do you have, do you have three spin of coin?
johngrimsmo: Do have through spindle. I like that. It's like I was talking with another friend in Canada who's looking to buy an S700 and he shared his build spec with me and he's like, what should I get?
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: what i it It depends on how much you want to spend on it and really like what you're going to use. um And, you know, some people are never going to use through spindle coolant. I don't use it much, but I'm sure glad I have it.
John Saunders: Is it a separate physical large unit?
johngrimsmo: It's no, it's, um, it goes on the coolant tank, but it is a separate pump.
John Saunders: No, that I'm okay with.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: So um I'll take it to the extreme to help help share my logic.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: If we were gonna buy 10, we're not. but If we were gonna buy 10 of these,
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um i I want to make sure it's the right decision. Cause here's the thing, i love through spindle coolant. We had it with our first VM3. We use it all the time on on drills, on face mills, on cleaning.
John Saunders: um I love through spindle coolant.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: On the Haases, they, I think do a great job. it's It's a feature cost, it's a pump that fits on your tank. So it doesn't take up any more real estate. It doesn't involve additional maintenance, things that can be e-stop, things that have like whatever.
John Saunders: the Okuma's, they're quite good, but the Okuma through spindle coolant is like the size of an s three hundred machine. um it's it's
johngrimsmo: Well, it's like on the current, like it's an external coolant system.
John Saunders: very large yes um and you know these are usually five figure systems like they're they're not inexpensive which i wouldn't shortchange the right build spec just for money but when it's money and a bunch of real estate because here's the thing most of the time we're drilling it's two to three times d and there are benefits from through spindle but um
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: part of me wanted to think about like, Hey, if you're gonna buy 10 of these, do you really want 10? Um, do you need it? Like, and then it's the brothers are so fast.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: I found some YouTube videos to confirm there it basically is no lag. Like if it needs to be a cool, it's just on, it doesn't seem to slow down tool change time.
johngrimsmo: no um although there is a kind of an i don't know we have this problem and some other people have had it too where the um
John Saunders: Um, which is actually insanely impressive.
johngrimsmo: The pump isn't primed when you need it to be primed or something. Like if it sits for the weekend, it'll alarm out because it, it whatever, hasn't seen pressure in two seconds or something like that. um
John Saunders: Interesting. interesting
johngrimsmo: So in my warmup routine, I have through spindle coolant for 10 seconds first, the very first operation in the warmup. So that if it's going to air out, you're there. You're literally, you just hit go.
John Saunders: That's a great, that's really smart.
johngrimsmo: And then... If you see the through spindle going, you can walk away and let it finish. Otherwise it'll yell at you within a few seconds. Um, and then usually within the day, it's fine. Like,
John Saunders: How do you remedy that alarm prime issue?
johngrimsmo: I think you just do it again a couple of times.
John Saunders: Ah, okay. It's not like some wrenches and maintenance tasks.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. No, no. You literally just call through spindle again and, uh, hope it works this time.
John Saunders: Okay. Okay.
johngrimsmo: And I don't know exactly why, what's up with that, but whatever.
John Saunders: Yeah. And then what was the, um remind me the whole higher high accuracy thing.
johngrimsmo: and do
John Saunders: And do you know if that's changed on the like new X2D00 controls?
johngrimsmo: I don't.
John Saunders: okay
johngrimsmo: I know the D00 is generally more accurate, it has more pulses per rev or whatever, like a lot more. ah I don't know if the high accuracy mode affects that at all.
John Saunders: OK.
johngrimsmo: But basically what they do is they have this little tiny chip, looks like a RAM stick,
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: um that adds onto the machine, which gives you, I think, two options. And you pay for the stick with one option or two options, whatever. And that option could be ah high-speed look-ahead.
johngrimsmo: It could be high-accuracy mode, which gives you a fifth decimal inch, or I guess a fourth decimal metric, whatever that is. um i That made a huge difference for what I'm doing.
John Saunders: Fifth decimal, because you still can adjust in tenths. You just couldn't adjust in quote unquote millionths.
johngrimsmo: Correct. So yeah, four decimal is one 10th, five decimal is 10 millionths.
John Saunders: Okay. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And for the grinding accuracy that we were doing, I absolutely saw steps in the finish at one 10th increments, but at 10 millionth increments, it's gone.
John Saunders: Okay. I don't think I need that, but it also really irks me to think that like,
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John Saunders: I don't know. I was trying to, I'll do some more research, but I was like, I wonder if they have now included it. So it's at least just a software unlock versus installing a physical chip or card.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, that's good question. see I have to install the chip and reboot the machine and do something weird. I forget. You have to choose the option you want.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um But I think if you know the menus, you can choose a different option. Like I could turn off high speed or whatever, high accuracy and do the other one.
John Saunders: i ah look ahead I don't need um and don't need the i don't think i need either one of them.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: I will say like it has been interesting in the Okuma horizontal doing hard milling with high end tools and you're like, man, there's like a value that's just like, you know, I don't believe that 10 millionths is a reliable number that a machine can like control.
John Saunders: But I also think it's more accurate than a tenth just in terms of like how you want it to
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: handle something and sometimes you do you're like oh man i can't comp the tool and i can't fusion and po like just i don't want to limited or at least i want to understand what the limitation would be
johngrimsmo: Literally.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And I remember talking with Greg about this. so I forget the exact numbers, but since mine is the C00 control, the new newer ones are the D00.
John Saunders: mm-hmm sorry okay
johngrimsmo: My stepper motors have, servo motors, have so many pulses per inch or per rotation or whatever, whereas the D00 ones have like 100 times more. ah hundred times more
John Saunders: Oh, wow.
johngrimsmo: like like millions of pulses per inch.
John Saunders: OK.
johngrimsmo: So when you're resolving down past, I think I was asking him the difference between inch mode and metric mode, because I could theoretically get more accuracy if I go to metric mode and go from 10 millionths down to essentially four millionths in metric.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: But he's like, your machine has like four four individual pulses between the 10 millionth tick, but like no resolution.
John Saunders: OK.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Whereas the D zero zero ones have like a, you know, a thousand pulses still between that range, something like that.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Um, anyway, that's that. And then, um, yeah, other options, there's all the tool changer options, like 21, 28, 15, whatever, 28.
John Saunders: twenty s Yeah, 20s. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Mine's 21.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Cause 28 didn't exist at that time. Um, thankfully we currently only use it with like four tools at a time, just doing repeat hard milling.
John Saunders: ah That's really nice, actually. Yeah, Riri.
johngrimsmo: So it's kind of great. Um, but I know a lot of guys, especially buying their first video, it's like you and me 10 years ago, working going to buy one machine. That's going to do everything.
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, mean, this weekend, I couldn't not click on the animated preview of how the 100 tools, they have a 100 tool thing works.
johngrimsmo: haven't seen that yet.
John Saunders: So it's the same, um it's the same or similar front umbrella, which is, it's, it's I would say it's ingenious.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: I give him some credit.
johngrimsmo: Totally. I mean, I saw it like three months ago whenever it was passed around, but if there's new, I haven't seen it yet.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah, there's a YouTube, or Yamas, I think has a YouTube animation, but it has,
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And
John Saunders: Um, it has a side kind of like a Haas has a side mount tool changer on the left. So it has a, it has a big ring on the left and the right that each hold, I believe 36 tools.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And then there's just like a punch piston arm, like a, like an arcade game where it just punches out. And what it does is it always leaves an open pocket in the main umbrella, And then the arm can go in, it pulls a tool out of your main one, and then it in in that goes into the empty one in the sidearm, and then it rotates the sidearm one index to the tool you would want to It pushes the sidearm tool out and into the main front one.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: So it would be, I'm assuming that you can automate it because it would probably take, i don't know, it would probably take the machine five to 10 minutes to swap all them out itself, but who cares if it can do it, you if it knows how to do it.
johngrimsmo: Totally. And I wasn't sure if that was an as needed basis or if it like you need to run 28 tools in your program, but it can load whatever 28 tools of your 100 you want, or if it can like call it mid cycle.
johngrimsmo: I don't know.
John Saunders: I can't answer that. I would be shocked if you weren't able to use 100 tools with like program apart that had all 100 tools used, walk away, come back, and it's done.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John Saunders: Like it be so might be slow, pretty sure.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting.
johngrimsmo: so you're gonna get that one?
John Saunders: but No, no, no.
johngrimsmo: No. It's pretty cool though.
John Saunders: I give him a lot of credit, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, oh sure, it's kind of brilliant.
John Saunders: In the footprint of it, yeah.
johngrimsmo: it it It proves their resolve for the S platform, like S300, 500, 700,000, whatever, because they're like, no, no, the machine's fine, but we're just going to add more tools.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Right. Yeah. I think i've asked this before. i don't even know why asking really, but like you could teach me the control or you could teach.
johngrimsmo: it's It's very fanicky.
John Saunders: but that doesn't help right now. That doesn't make me feel better.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I guess you don't have a lot of fanic stuff.
John Saunders: Willie's FANUC. I've never used it. um Well, FANUC to me scares me. It's like sub menus, non-intuitive, like...
johngrimsmo: it's more intuitive than that um because it's very it's fine like with any machine you just you take you take a while looking for the thing you're looking for but they're yeah
John Saunders: But if I said, okay. Now not worried about because I'll learn it. There's enough people out there, but it so it sounds like it's not like Heidenheim where you're like, welcome welcome to my, good.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Yours is an S500, XD1, whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John Saunders: Knowing what you know now, I care about the size. If we do this at our shop, I do care about the size. I also brought that limited. So it seems, I don't know that I want to spend the time to try to make sure if I were works when it's just like the 700 is just a no brainer.
John Saunders: Does that make sense?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, a lot of people just default to the 700.
John Saunders: like
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um I know the knife makers especially justify it's like I can fit four pallets on it um and do all of the works.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: I think 700's like VF2 sized? VF3. I don't
John Saunders: Actually don't even, I have in front me here.
johngrimsmo: know. 500's not big. It's 20 inches and in X.
John Saunders: but Yeah, it's pretty tight, right?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, but I'm very happy with it for what I'm doing.
John Saunders: Okay. biggest, although
johngrimsmo: um It depends on what you want it for.
John Saunders: thought there was thousand, but is that like the W or anything?
johngrimsmo: yeah. Okay.
John Saunders: and the seven hundred is twenty seven point six inches and that's the biggest although i thought there was a thousand but is that like the double
johngrimsmo: There's a thousand. Yeah.
John Saunders: like w or
johngrimsmo: That's like a 40 by 20 basically.
John Saunders: It's different machine.
johngrimsmo: Maybe.
John Saunders: It's not even the S series, I think. Okay.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. i don't know.
John Saunders: And then I was like, oh my gosh, the S 300. They're actually one of the parts we're thinking about. I'm like like, it would work there, but it thent just feels so strange to be buying.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And the price difference is like four grand between each size machine.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's like nothing, but I know Dennis has a bunch of S300s and they're like little phone booths.
John Saunders: Yeah. Right.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: they're
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: It's kind of tempting to like want a bunch of those because yeah the footprint is just amazing on these machines.
John Saunders: Yeah, Wayne, so the whole part of this, it goes hat in hand with you are robots. So I don't, i actually don't necessarily need or want or can justify a larger footprint because you actually need to think about the access in and out that way.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And if you're thinking about that, do you need a huge table to fit a total ton of parts if you're going to auto loading one piece flow?
John Saunders: It's one piece flow.
johngrimsmo: So like literally 300, a use 300 300 might
John Saunders: Yep, you don't.
johngrimsmo: six
John Saunders: Yeah, right. but Yeah, that's where, um I have an open mind and I saw the Yamazin tournament a pretty crazy promo. i actually think right now I'm telling myself, first off, we're not pulling the trigger today anyways, like today, if you will.
johngrimsmo: sure
John Saunders: But I... i Could see myself getting getting a good deal with like legit used equipment or just buy new because it's something i it's not that I need the latest and greatest.
John Saunders: I recognize that that's not always the best way to go here, but some of the improvements in the controls do look pretty legit on the D-Zero.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: And if we're going to do this and we end up buying three or four, I do want them all to match.
johngrimsmo: That's fair. Yeah. Very valid.
John Saunders: Yeah. And the art and like to be blunt too, if i if I believe my own projections, which the thing that are true about projections is they're always wrong. But like, if I believe in them, the overall ballpark of the investment matters, but like saving three grand or seven grand or even 11 grand over a a reasonable lifetime is not that material.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. good
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: um but so I still take it seriously, but yeah.
johngrimsmo: And then there's also the U500, which, you know, if I needed it to buy a machine tomorrow would probably be near the top of my list. The five axis S 500. Sure.
John Saunders: Yeah, i I need to learn more about that. Some very polarizing outcomes in and in the instant machinist world there.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. don't know.
John Saunders: I'll leave it at that.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And it depends on what you need it for.
John Saunders: Also, though, totally, um ah I think they have a new version though. I didn't follow that. Some there was some chat, a newer version of it, which I think also changed the Z axis or I don't know if that's a zero or a 90, or is that a B?
johngrimsmo: Okay. know. don't
John Saunders: That's a B. Ooh, it's a B machine, right?
johngrimsmo: i don't know. I feel like it's a name machine.
John Saunders: X, Y. No, it's left to right. but trying The pivot X, Y, it's across it was an A.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: it's an A.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Yours is a B. Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yes. The current, yeah.
John Saunders: What's going on in your world?
johngrimsmo: um last week we talked about the argon purge in heat read right so i have i have a result i have two results i do not understand them but they're very interesting this just happened a couple hours ago um so our guy larry did ah round of heat treat he said regular blade regular bag
John Saunders: Yes. Yes.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: with a piece of paper in it nothing else different just a piece of paper and he also did a bunch of regular blades to his normal way so he did one blade with just a piece of paper inside he said that bag all the other ones sucked flat because they consume the oxygen that's inside like they normally do the one with the paper blew up expanded
John Saunders: Okay.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um like inflated, I guess is the best word for it, to the point where when he pulled it out, it was stuck between the ceramic rods.
John Saunders: Oh my gosh.
johngrimsmo: I'm like, dude, all you do is put paper in there. He's like, I know. And then he did another blade with about eight seconds of argon purge inside, and then he folded it while it was still pointing up in the sky, and then sealed it really good, triple folded it, and also put a piece of paper in there.
John Saunders: of
johngrimsmo: And he said, that one... um that one shrunk down and crinkled in super weird ways and folded over itself and looks like shriveled raisin. And I'm like, this is totally backwards from anything i thought was going to happen right now.
John Saunders: Yeah, right?
John Saunders: This seems really odd.
johngrimsmo: so I have no idea what's going to happen. So anyway, his suggestion was tomorrow to the same thing with no paper and just see if that makes a difference.
John Saunders: Yeah, all right,
johngrimsmo: Maybe it is the paper. It's just a piece of printer paper, probably less than one square inch
John Saunders: right. Oh, you didn't crumple up a whole sheet.
johngrimsmo: No, no.
John Saunders: was just, yeah, little sliver.
johngrimsmo: yeah Probably half a square inch, if I had to say.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: um so yeah
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: It's a weird result.
John Saunders: The paper ones, you had two paper ones, one expanded, one still shrunk. Did the paper was also gone though? Because,
johngrimsmo: It was black charred. um but There was still a bit of a square there, but a lot of dust as well.
John Saunders: yeah, like nothing.
John Saunders: Gosh, that's...
johngrimsmo: So it's kind of interesting. I don't.
John Saunders: i
johngrimsmo: So our first thought is there like, I look at the tank. Is that really Argon? I read the label like very slowly. Yes, Argon. um And then like Larry's worked in industry for forever. He's in his 50s.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, we've had bad batches before at our previous job. Like maybe it's a bad mix. Maybe it's not. I don't know. you know, everything's on the table at this point.
John Saunders: gosh
johngrimsmo: I don't know.
John Saunders: That seems crazy, but no, you're right.
johngrimsmo: I agree. Yeah.
John Saunders: i mean mean, gases get mixed up or whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah And I'm like, how do you tell if it's argon? Maybe you could, because it's an inert gas, it should put out a flame, right? um i tried that, but it blew it away.
John Saunders: right
johngrimsmo: so maybe there's a way to do it. I don't know. um I'm sure there's a way with like a bowl and a little tea candle inside and you fill the outside bowl with... argon slowly and let it put up i don't know but i'll look into it a little bit um other than that unless its the paper is weird it's just printer paper i don't know but he's on it
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah, I was to chat GPT, there's no like easy.
johngrimsmo: so easy answer yeah
John Saunders: No, no, no. It's like, read the label. like Thanks, chat.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. But like, it's supposed to be an inert gas, which shouldn't do anything in the heat or oxygen or whatever.
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: Maybe if it is the wrong gas, it is a ah reactive gas, maybe.
johngrimsmo: What
John Saunders: There's a special valve type for argon cylinders that you could check. It lists the US number on it.
johngrimsmo: does that mean?
John Saunders: Argon cylinders use a specific compressed gas association valve fitting in the US called a CGA 580. That's not the valve fitting on your tank, it's a red flag.
johngrimsmo: Not the regulator, but the valve. Like, I don't
John Saunders: Valve fitting. Argon cylinder valve fitting would be, yes, that would be the tank, not before the regulator.
johngrimsmo: know. Got it. Yeah.
John Saunders: I mean, look, I could be... You didn't ask my opinion. i that's Keep an open in mind about that, but like that just seems like one in a million, not a...
johngrimsmo: Totally. Totally. I agree. We are on this podcast to get your opinion. Yeah.
John Saunders: I know, I know, but I tend to...
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: If I was in a group project and somebody was claiming that as the excuse, I'd be we'll keep that in the back of our head, but like let's go like practical.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. Let's say what else?
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
John Saunders: oh
johngrimsmo: So, so yeah, Larry said, try, try to repeat the result without the paper.
John Saunders: the The goal... got
johngrimsmo: And, uh, yeah
John Saunders: you I don't remember if you post them put them on Instagram or just DM them to me, but the pictures of the um buttons, I believe, that you said were changing their physical shape during heat treat.
johngrimsmo: yeah, I post those in my stories.
John Saunders: look Let me tell you, folks, he wasn't kidding. It looks like somebody took a trip and smacked him.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Like ah a ball peen hammer and dented this thing. Yep.
John Saunders: That is... I was shocked.
johngrimsmo: It's super whack. like And oh
John Saunders: Yeah, that wasn't like a sag or a little bit of... gravity Gravity flow.
johngrimsmo: and we're super gentle with moving them, but I think they are so soft at that critical temperature compared to any other steel.
John Saunders: the
johngrimsmo: They're like clay, like literal Play-Doh.
John Saunders: Play-Doh.
johngrimsmo: So... So I have a machine graphite fixture. It's ready to go. But but Larry is super hesitant to run it without getting this argon situation figured out.
John Saunders: Looks awesome.
John Saunders: You need argon to run a graph, head or all have a problem?
johngrimsmo: So graphite is fine in a vacuum up to 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, but it doesn't like oxygen above 900 degrees Fahrenheit.
John Saunders: Okay. Well, it sounds like you just figured out a way top you have argon.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly. Destroy my...
John Saunders: We'll put it, run a cycle with a scrap piece of, you have any scrap graphite left over?
johngrimsmo: i could I give him scrap blades that he can keep testing on um no I don't have any extra graph i I have extra blocks of graphite but exactly yeah that's that's interesting yep we'll touch base next week stay tuned next week
John Saunders: How about a pack of pencil lead? Interesting. Interesting. Okay. We'll keep it posted. It's very interesting.
John Saunders: Yeah. yeah um I think I tried to end last week's episode with a sort of a fake cliffhanger about the Gorilla Stand.
johngrimsmo: ah yes I saw the little video you posted up.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: That was great.
John Saunders: Yeah. So we put that up on Insta. it's I like it.
johngrimsmo: kind of agree.
John Saunders: It's high quality. It is the Herman Schmidt that we also have is is too small. This one is too big. I mean, I think it should be
johngrimsmo: ah kind of agree
John Saunders: 30 to 50% smaller, it would maintain the benefits for all practical purposes of having a stable platform and the ability to, to you know, bridge over a part without, um you know, even on a 24 by 36 plate, which is bigger than some shops can kind of have, it's it's large on a, and it would be very,
John Saunders: borderline impossible to use on like a 12 by 18 or even 18 by 24 plate. So, um, and then knowing I don't like, I don't know if maybe I'm missing something obvious is that um when you rotate the knob to loosen the whole, to the two bars, there's a vertical bar and crossbar.
John Saunders: One knob releases both of them.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: And it's great. It locks up very crisp and very securely. But when you unlock it, you have to have one hand to unlock it and the other hand has to support the whole system or else it all just collapses down.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: And that is awkward. And it's something that somebody else will end up probably dropping an indicator onto a part because they don't realize it's as sensitive as it is.
johngrimsmo: yeah it's like fine when you know what you're doing but if yeah you're right um that is an interesting uh
John Saunders: that make sense?
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: Feature, not a bug, let's say. But it's, yeah, it's I agree with those points.
John Saunders: What do you think? Comments?
johngrimsmo: I think, I mean, we have it on, I don't know how big our surface plate is. Probably 24 by 36, maybe. don't even know. It's an old CMM base.
John Saunders: Probably yours.
johngrimsmo: It's got holes in it. um it's good on there because we have that we have a mitotoyo height gauge on it and some other stuff and there's plenty of room and it would be great for bigger parts but we have tiny parts i would love to see the baby brother of this gorilla stand um even with the same amount of weight in the base or something like nice stable but uh yeah
John Saunders: Yes.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah, agree.
John Saunders: And to be clear, um I don't mean to rag on it. It's a well-made product. um We're going to use it. I like it. The packaging was exquisite, um really.
johngrimsmo: Definitely.
John Saunders: um it's It's also, I will say, it's also fully priced, if you will, perhaps, but um well done. Like we wanted to have a tool that would work to use with confidence to use our most our most high resolution tools.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: Like we have two millimuses, we have a 50 million sprung and sharp. and with with the Gorilla stand, we can very comfortably, as I showed on the video, you know, we can go to the value you want.
John Saunders: There wasn't hysteresis. It's just a very solid, compared to like what I used to have, which were eBay, Sterets, and you're just like, every time you're like, ah, I got to get the backlash out or it's got some, you know, hysteresis bumpiness to it and blah, blah, blah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: There is a I know you got to go real soon, but there's a hack you can do with this style of indicator that you can't do with some of them or with indicator stand.
John Saunders: Hello. Hello.
johngrimsmo: So how you had it in the video where you have the base and you have the arm sticking out quite a bit and your indicator on the tip, not just around, but which is an option. If you flip it, um okay, so you have your your two feet, that's your pivot point pretty much, and your one foot in the front that you're up and down.
johngrimsmo: If you get the indicator sideways to be in line with the two feet or just out of line with the pivot point of those two feet, now your accuracy goes through the roof.
John Saunders: It's a sign. <unk> kind It's a compound on a lathe for a diameter.
johngrimsmo: Exactly, yeah.
John Saunders: Love it, John.
johngrimsmo: So you can use the knob and literally move like one million at a time, which kind of silly, but kind of awesome at the same time.
John Saunders: That's super smart.
John Saunders: There's of course.
John Saunders: Well, no, I totally agree.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And imagine if you put it out like two feet or however long the thing goes, you have a lot of travel, but you have very low resolution.
John Saunders: Yes, right, right, right.
johngrimsmo: And I saw Nicholas Hacco mentioned that on some private video a long time ago. And I was like, oh, that is that is really cool. I need an indicator stand that can do that. This one can.
John Saunders: Yes. Okay. I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm going to make a note to play with that.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: um Use gorilla at an angle like a lathe compound. Okay. Yeah, i got run.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: I'll see you next week.
johngrimsmo: See week, man. Bye.
