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#419 Reinvest or take out money?
0 Playsin 1 day
TOPICS:
- UPS knives to Blade Show still stuck in Atlanta
- 465 Custom stainless steel
- Firechrome material
- Reinvest or take out money?
- Was there a point where you wanted to throw in the towel?
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode 419
00:00:01
johngrimsmo
Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining episode 419, area 419.
00:00:06
John Saunders
Yes.
Manufacturing Insights Shared on Instagram
00:00:07
johngrimsmo
um This is your weekly dose of manufacturing where John and John talk about what's going on in their businesses. We make things. I posted that on Instagram yesterday. like, we make things.
00:00:19
johngrimsmo
that's That's what we do. I like that.
00:00:22
John Saunders
We make things. Yeah, agreed.
00:00:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
Growth of Area 419 in Shooting Sports
00:00:26
John Saunders
I had been trying to come up with some whimsy way of tying in Area 419, which like they're not part of either of our stories other than similar age, you know, part of the instant machinist community have a phenomenal company growth wise shooting sports.
00:00:32
johngrimsmo
No.
00:00:41
John Saunders
But and we've done shop interviews, discussions with them, but like, yeah, that's all got.
00:00:42
johngrimsmo
That's it.
00:00:47
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:00:48
John Saunders
Shop full of DMGs and groves and what's our good.
00:00:48
johngrimsmo
But it's, yeah, it's ah inspiration for all of us, you know, like, they they have and do things that we don't do, so it's nice to look up to them.
00:01:00
johngrimsmo
And maybe we haven't thing have and do things that they don't do, and they look up, and it's this whole, like, you know, everybody just wants everybody to succeed in their own way.
00:01:09
John Saunders
Yeah.
Challenges with UPS and Package Deliveries
00:01:13
John Saunders
How are you? What's new? two
00:01:16
johngrimsmo
Not too much new. We're just kind of head down, um trying to wrap up a lot of things so that we can smooth everything out and then you know go on to new projects over time.
00:01:27
johngrimsmo
um Coming back from Blade Show, the ah packages are still in Atlanta.
00:01:35
John Saunders
No.
00:01:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:01:38
John Saunders
Oh my God.
00:01:38
johngrimsmo
Wild, right? I mean, I know exactly where they are, but yeah, that's fun.
00:01:45
John Saunders
I thought they were going to get turned around in Kentucky.
00:01:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah, no, they, they were. And then they traveled to Atlanta, false delivered, which is dumb because I'd already initiated a return to sender.
00:01:54
John Saunders
Yeah, right.
00:01:55
johngrimsmo
And then now they've been stuck in the Atlanta UPS hub. I don't know stuck is the right word, but they're not moving, um, for the past like week and half, two weeks almost.
00:02:06
johngrimsmo
Um, I, I've been on the phone with UPS a lot, called them a bunch times and, um, They said, ah yeah everything's in place. It should return to sender. You should have them by Thursday, which is tomorrow for me now.
00:02:22
johngrimsmo
and And I said, if I don't, then she said, call back and we'll find the next steps. um
00:02:27
John Saunders
You know, what infuriates me, ah if I'm like willing to look past the just look, you're part of the, you were part of the, I'm sorry. There were explainable hiccups that you sort of contributed to like the whole cuss or last minute shipping, but like you also insured it and then you insured a huge sum and like,
00:02:44
johngrimsmo
Totally.
00:02:48
johngrimsmo
True.
00:02:49
John Saunders
The point wasn't just the return of the product. The point would be the return of or the delivery of the product in a reasonable timeframe. And I find it infuriating to think that your, if I recall the insurance alone was four figures, that they don't owe you some of that back for not, yeah, not be more attentive to, you know, sorry, that's just frustrating.
00:03:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:03:07
johngrimsmo
Non-delivery.
00:03:10
johngrimsmo
Right, right.
00:03:13
johngrimsmo
No, it's interesting because I'm um no longer P.O. about it.
00:03:19
John Saunders
Yeah, can tell.
00:03:20
johngrimsmo
um I'm like, i I will handle it, but i'm the the emotions have gone, which is good. And now it's just kind of a okay, what's next? What do we do? um
00:03:30
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:03:30
johngrimsmo
I honestly ah would fly down to Atlanta and get them myself and fly them back. um However, the last time I talked to UPS last week, they said that's no longer an option because I've initiated a return to sender.
00:03:44
johngrimsmo
um
00:03:45
John Saunders
not to mention flying with ah fine with these doesn't always prove to be a good idea.
00:03:45
johngrimsmo
ah
00:03:51
johngrimsmo
ah Across a border, I could fly back to Buffalo and be good.
00:03:55
John Saunders
okay. Got it.
00:03:56
johngrimsmo
But... Yeah, so still an option, even though UPS told me it's no longer an option. If if they haven't moved, it's still an option.
00:04:07
John Saunders
yeah Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like the frustrating thing is that like somebody could solve this now.
00:04:09
johngrimsmo
Right?
00:04:12
John Saunders
Like if this were...
00:04:13
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:04:14
John Saunders
you this is not realistic, but like if this was Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates, somebody would be called and go down there and get the package and fix this right now.
00:04:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah, right.
00:04:22
John Saunders
And I understand we're not that person, but like,
00:04:22
johngrimsmo
right And this is a huge, huge order. This is tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars of merchandise.
00:04:28
John Saunders
right.
00:04:30
John Saunders
Right.
00:04:31
johngrimsmo
And yeah, and I mean, you hear about these things happening where, you know, it's a stuck, stuck, stuck, and then oops, it's lost. And that is a zero option for us right now.
00:04:40
John Saunders
Yeah. Well, that's to say time is not on your side here, John, either.
00:04:44
johngrimsmo
Right, exactly.
00:04:44
John Saunders
Like to your point. Yeah.
00:04:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:04:47
John Saunders
o
00:04:48
johngrimsmo
Now they are
00:04:48
John Saunders
Did you pay for the insurance with a credit card?
00:04:51
johngrimsmo
Uh, yeah.
00:04:52
John Saunders
Do you do a charge? I'm sorry. I don't say this willy and noy because I'm not, I'm not that kind of a person. um I've done, I've done two chargebacks in my life and um one of them was about to be, sorry, a third one would have been UPS two weeks ago. i don't even remember sharing this story.
00:05:07
johngrimsmo
No.
00:05:08
John Saunders
It's not a, it's a story I'll tell, keep very short. Fraudulent, somebody used our account fraudulently. It was clear that based on the origin and destination, it wasn't us. I submitted a dispute. I lost the dispute.
00:05:19
John Saunders
I emailed our rep. We don't use UPS. We have a rep. We don't use them. So don't have any leverage. Not that I would if we were a regular volume shipper, but I but i was like, hey, I don't remember my Susan.
00:05:30
John Saunders
I like, Susan, this is what's happening. This needs to be fixed or else I need a... I'm going to file a charge back. And she was like, oh, we'll give you a credit. This is for 300 bucks. So not the of the world, but like, not going to let it slide.
00:05:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:05:42
John Saunders
And like, we'll give you a credit on future orders. And I'm like, no, it doesn't work because when we do use UPS, it's auto builder credit card. auto pay is all set up. I don't want to break it to start tabulating charges and recrediting them.
00:05:53
John Saunders
And was like, you need to refund me. She got it taken care of. And so I give her credit, but she had this attitude of like, this is your problem, not mine. I'm like, I'm not sure if you're familiar with consumer protection. projection mechanisms of credit card chargebacks, but you're you're this one you're going to lose also because you've already admitted in email that you owe us this money back.
00:06:05
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:06:10
johngrimsmo
yeah yeah This is not my problem. like
00:06:14
John Saunders
So it's like i insurance didn't work here, so I'd like my money back on that part.
00:06:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Interesting.
Professional Journey Interview with Dylan
00:06:20
John Saunders
Worst thing you do lose it, but lose the dispute or chargeback.
00:06:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah, right? Against a huge mega clongo conglomerate. like Or, you know, best case, it just passes through and it works.
00:06:30
John Saunders
I don't think that they, don't, well, so I'll just share.
00:06:32
johngrimsmo
don't know.
00:06:36
John Saunders
I had conflicting feelings about this one, but I did, the first ever chargeback I did was years ago for something that was very concrete. The second one I did was more recently, and we ordered some really big Johnny Five 3D prints from one of the online printing services that farms them out.
00:06:49
John Saunders
And the prints showed up, this is about $500 worth of PLA 3D prints. So like, oh, okay, sorry, don't repeat myself.
00:06:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah, you mentioned this, yeah. But you didn't mention the chargebacker, and you just mentioned being very unhappy with them.
00:07:00
John Saunders
very unhappy, reached out. And at first they were like pound sand. Then they were like, well, that's what happens. And then they were like, well, we could remake some of them for you. And then it's just like, so you're, these are like, I can't emphasize this enough, complete dog baloney.
00:07:12
John Saunders
Um, nobody would be like, oh John, you're being picky.
00:07:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:07:15
John Saunders
Like major gaps in layer lines, delamination holes that were, that have so much, you're just terrible. Um, and so i was like, i'm gonna do chargeback because they're not paying, they're not even paying attention to it. And so, um, I won.
00:07:33
John Saunders
Anyway.
00:07:34
johngrimsmo
good to know um yeah go go no
00:07:38
John Saunders
On that. Okay. Oh, I have a bunch of like random little stuff. I have to laugh because you and I don't swear, but I turned that filter off with my um two hour discussion with Dylan, which I really, I really,
00:07:54
johngrimsmo
um i haven't listened to that yet okay the with intolerance podcast yeah
00:07:58
John Saunders
Yeah, so I really enjoyed it. I haven't really sat down and told the whole my whole story, maybe maybe ever, but certainly, you look to be honest, most people most of the time people don't want to hear you talk for that long or about yourself.
00:08:14
John Saunders
But it seemed more appropriate given that this is a story about Dylan asked questions, how we get to where we got.
00:08:16
johngrimsmo
yeah for sure.
00:08:19
John Saunders
and so um I give Dylan a lot of credit. He's a great host. He's a great kind of interviewer and steerer of the conversation. um So, and Dylan does a great, i mean, with Intolerance tolerance does, um you know, numbers of great interviews and folks in the industry.
00:08:35
John Saunders
But um if folks want to listen, it's the first time I think I've really kind of laid out in one sit down, like, hey, this was how grew up. but This is the jobs I had. This is when and where I left. This is what happened with Strike Mark. This is what happened with the partnership. This is the time. It was really weird. Even Yvonne was like, did he research you or how does he know all these things? And it's like, um I mean, don't know. But um asking little questions like, did Strike Mark blow up before you left your job or after you left your job in New York to Ohio? and Anyway, um it was a fun conversation.
00:09:03
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:09:04
John Saunders
I enjoyed it.
Machining Materials: 465, A2, D2, Fire Chrome
00:09:05
johngrimsmo
good
00:09:08
John Saunders
And I had, there were a couple of questions that we got. I think one that Dylan got that we didn't get to. I thought maybe it's okay with you. I would address those um here, but first I had a note to ask you about some 465 material for Fjell buttons.
00:09:17
johngrimsmo
yeah for sure exactly um they are cutting on the swiss as we speak right now
00:09:30
John Saunders
How's that for timing?
00:09:30
johngrimsmo
um material finally came in and then uh we'll be heat treating tomorrow yeah
00:09:36
John Saunders
Oh, awesome. Remind me, I guess I don't even now remember, you found this material or you were optimistic about it. What's the backstory?
00:09:45
johngrimsmo
yeah it's um honestly chat gpt kind of reminded me of it but it's uh i've had many conversations with above metallurgy with chat gpt lately um as well as my own actual research but Um, it's one of those materials where like aerospace guys are like, oh yeah, I've worked with that before, but nobody remembers it at the top of their tongue. Like try this kind of thing.
00:10:07
johngrimsmo
Um, and in that case, like Angelo has worked with it before. He's like, yeah, we just make landing gear components out of it. Like back in the day. It's great. was like, like, you yeah, just could have told me that a year ago.
00:10:18
John Saunders
Sure.
00:10:19
johngrimsmo
uh, it is stainless it's, it's like 17, four pH, but, um,
00:10:21
John Saunders
It's stainless.
00:10:25
John Saunders
Okay.
00:10:26
johngrimsmo
said tougher, to harder, uh, heat treatable.
00:10:30
John Saunders
Oh.
00:10:30
johngrimsmo
Cause that kind of tops out at 45 Rockwell, um, at the age 900 grade, this can get up into the fifties, um, low, mid high fifties, depending on how you do it.
00:10:34
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:10:43
johngrimsmo
Uh, we'll see, we'll see tomorrow.
00:10:43
John Saunders
Okay.
00:10:45
johngrimsmo
Um, But it's just it's just great. And from what I've gathered, comparing to 440C, it should be significantly tougher and significantly more dent resistant, which is our big problem with 440 right now, where being used as a button, as a detent and a locking mechanism, it just impacts and it dents.
00:10:59
John Saunders
Yeah, right, right.
00:11:07
johngrimsmo
And that's not good for what we need it for. I need it, you know, ideally it was it is very hard and very non-dentable and it just is the standard that moves out of the way instead of deforming in the way you know
00:11:22
John Saunders
What is the ball hardness?
00:11:25
johngrimsmo
ah when the balls we normally use for other knives or the blade but basically a sharp edge on the blade um
00:11:26
John Saunders
Or what? Sorry, you when you say that the pin is detenting, what is pushing into it causing the detent?
00:11:39
John Saunders
Oh, okay, I'm with you, i understand. Oh, then that should be easy to have a material that's harder than the blade.
00:11:48
johngrimsmo
ah Depending. You also want it stainless. You also want it polishable. There's a lot of factors to it. um And in bar form as well. And you can't go so hard just to be like carbide because that's brittle and super hard to make and
00:12:04
John Saunders
Yeah, but I was thinking that you were using and a ball bearing or similar where that might be 65 Rockwell or something of the sorts where it's like, I don't know how you're going to not have it. I mean, this is your, if it were ball bearings around it, I'm thinking of the the saga.
00:12:17
John Saunders
It's like, that is literally a Rockwell test. Every time you use it, pushing, pushing ball bearing into the surface.
00:12:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly.
00:12:24
johngrimsmo
Yep. And for our um Rask and Norseman, we use a ceramic bearing ball for the detent. And that's like, i don't even know how hard a ceramic ball is.
00:12:30
John Saunders
Okay.
00:12:32
johngrimsmo
70, 80, 90, like super hard.
00:12:34
John Saunders
Interesting.
00:12:35
johngrimsmo
um But yeah, it's not just the hardness. It's the toughness too, because I, I feel like um even 4.65 softer hardness can be a lot tougher and lot more resistant to keeping a dent.
00:12:54
johngrimsmo
It will just kind of deform and do what it's got to do while springing back.
00:12:59
John Saunders
interesting
00:13:00
johngrimsmo
um But we will find out tomorrow.
00:13:02
John Saunders
Yeah, it is fair enough.
00:13:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so super excited.
00:13:04
John Saunders
Interesting.
00:13:05
johngrimsmo
But it's machine it's machining really well.
00:13:05
John Saunders
Have you heard...
00:13:08
johngrimsmo
It's tough, but it's like 32 Rockwell, so it's not soft, not hard.
00:13:09
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:13:13
John Saunders
Yeah, right.
00:13:14
johngrimsmo
But yeah, it's machining great.
00:13:15
John Saunders
It makes a good chip.
00:13:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah, Jeff said it was rap wrapping like chip wrapping quite a bit. So when the subspindle comes in to part it off to grab it, um sometimes he's got chip wrapping problems.
00:13:26
John Saunders
Got it.
00:13:26
johngrimsmo
So he's got to either chip break or do a backward spring pass to like switch it off.
00:13:33
John Saunders
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:13:34
johngrimsmo
He thought of that and wants to try that.
00:13:35
John Saunders
Yep.
00:13:36
johngrimsmo
So not sure what he'll land on, but he'll figure it out.
00:13:40
John Saunders
Have you heard of a material called Fire Chrome?
00:13:43
johngrimsmo
No.
00:13:44
John Saunders
Robin Ranzetti, actually he told us there's another version that's discontinued. It's not Fire Stick, but it's like, it's a cool fire name. But um this stuff is, i don't think it's a solution. think it's solution for you, but it was still interesting.
00:13:57
John Saunders
um It is similar-ish. Take this with a grain of salt, not a metallurgist, but has similar-ish properties to 17-4, although it's an H13 tool steel.
00:14:07
John Saunders
It can be available in a
00:14:08
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:14:10
John Saunders
40 to 45 Rockwell form. um And it's comes, you know, can come pre.
00:14:13
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:14:17
John Saunders
So H13 drill rod, AKA fire chrome is an excellent hot work tool steel combination of shock and resistance, red hardness and abrasion resistance. And there's another version that I think is all for all practical purposes, identical, but maybe trademark that's no longer made, but ah we had a, we're doing some testing on those expanding pins. And so we're looking at different versions of material. And that was one that Robin had recommended.
00:14:42
johngrimsmo
Cool.
Toolpath and Kenda Metal Partnership
00:14:45
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:14:45
johngrimsmo
look Looks like max hardness 50? Yeah.
00:14:49
John Saunders
I think that sounds right. Yeah. It's certainly not your sixties type tool steel.
00:14:50
johngrimsmo
um yeah
00:14:55
John Saunders
Although talking off the top of my head, I think H13 could be harder. So there may be something about this in a pre-hard form that it's already limited out. I don't know. Can you take let's say A2, if you have A2 and you, he treated it to 45, could you then do more work on it if you want to and then take it from 45 to 60, I guess?
00:15:16
johngrimsmo
I think there are some caveats because I looked into that. um And whoever I was talking to basically said that's not the greatest idea because carbide formation or something like, i don't know.
00:15:25
John Saunders
Because. Got it. Yeah.
00:15:30
johngrimsmo
But yeah, yeah. Then there's like A2, D2 kind of options that are, you can get to low 60s, you know, pretty easily.
00:15:34
John Saunders
Mm-hmm. Seven. Sure, sure, sure.
00:15:39
johngrimsmo
And we did think about, like we have A2 in stock. um We did think about making some buttons out of that just to get them hard, hard.
00:15:46
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:15:46
johngrimsmo
See what they do. We haven't gone that far yet. And I and want it to be stayless.
00:15:51
John Saunders
Fair enough. you. um Before I go to back to Dylan, the folks at Toolpath is top of mind because Kenda Metal made an investment Toolpath. They came out to Ohio for a board meeting where they we finalized this. So first time I've met you know executives at Kenda Metal, they were very kind. They were very complimentary. They sent us a really nice um they so there's some It's some legacy thing that they did. I think they have extras of it.
00:16:21
John Saunders
It's wonderful. It's called Metal Mania. It was a 2024 cutting tour. This is gift box with a ton of really nice stuff in it. Very much appreciated. More importantly, though, for everybody listening, Toolpath is now doing a promotion where they have, I believe, don't quote me on this, the next 70 subscribers to Toolpath get are eligible for a similar box.
00:16:41
John Saunders
I don't think it's the exact same contents, but it's a pretty legit um cutting tool giveaway. So shameless plug, check out toolpath on Instagram, et cetera.
00:16:46
johngrimsmo
Cool.
00:16:49
John Saunders
If it's the right fit, don't just sign up for this thing, but like if it's the right fit, certainly seeing what's coming again with AI is, you know, we're not, we're so we're still in the first inning there.
00:16:57
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:03
John Saunders
Um, so let's talk about throwbacks. I used to fidget at my desk with a staple remover and I'm like, this is not the best fidget toy.
00:17:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:12
John Saunders
So you know what I dug out of the archives?
00:17:14
johngrimsmo
were I know. Nice boy. That thing has patinaed.
00:17:19
John Saunders
the Right?
00:17:22
johngrimsmo
agree. We didn't even name it. It was just the Grim's most spinner 16 or 17.
00:17:25
John Saunders
What year do you think this would have been?
00:17:27
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:28
John Saunders
that right? Seven, eight years old.
00:17:29
johngrimsmo
yeah If you, if you unscrew the, um, the buttons.
00:17:29
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:17:32
John Saunders
Oh really?
00:17:33
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I've got the date engraved on the underneath.
00:17:35
John Saunders
Of course you do.
00:17:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:36
John Saunders
Probably says made in Canada too.
00:17:38
johngrimsmo
Uh, I don't think it does.
00:17:38
John Saunders
Oh it does on script.
00:17:41
John Saunders
Oh, look at this 2017 Grimstone knives. Look at that thread. Yeah, look at this. That's cool.
00:17:48
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:17:49
John Saunders
Anyway. um
00:17:50
johngrimsmo
Cool. Good seat.
00:17:52
John Saunders
Okay, the questions that I wanted to address, which I think actually, honestly, both of us should answer. The first question is, where did I just put it now?
00:18:03
John Saunders
Maybe put on my sheet. Um, ah, yes.
Business Advice: Reinvestment vs. Payouts
00:18:06
John Saunders
Charlie from Australia asked, could you ask John his opinion on the balance of running a small business of reinvesting in the company versus pay payouts, distributions, et cetera.
00:18:18
John Saunders
You want to, do you want chime in on that?
00:18:20
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I mean, I don't have the best. um
00:18:26
johngrimsmo
I have reinvested almost all of any money and taken out very, very little for our family um to a point to the detriment of our family.
00:18:29
John Saunders
Everyone.
00:18:36
johngrimsmo
Like we live a comfortable life, but we don't have much extra. And part of that's my design, especially in the beginning, but getting to the point now where it's you know what, it'd be kind of nice to like be a bit more comfortable at home.
00:18:49
johngrimsmo
Um, so that's definitely top of mind, but in the beginning, like you, you make your choices. what are you going to do? I don't regret pouring every penny back into the business to grow what we've done.
00:19:00
John Saunders
Absolutely, yeah.
00:19:02
johngrimsmo
And everybody's at a different point in their lives, you know, with, with kids and relationships and things like that. And sometimes you can get away with it. Sometimes you can't get away with it. Um, so it's a personal decision everybody's got to make, but yeah, I've definitely, um,
00:19:15
johngrimsmo
poured almost everything back into the business and take out enough to live the comfortable life you want to live. um And that level is different for everybody.
00:19:24
John Saunders
you i
00:19:25
johngrimsmo
i don't know.
00:19:26
John Saunders
If I could add in as your friend or someone who's gotten to know you the last 10 years, like you're not driven by like money in terms of like just greed of consumption of personal material stuff.
00:19:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:19:36
John Saunders
You're, you're a wonderfully successful business. You've ever drive a nice car. You have a nice house. Your kids are, know, awesome family.
00:19:41
johngrimsmo
Yep. Mm
00:19:41
John Saunders
So it's also like, okay, Maslow's hierarchy is kind of like, but I hear you.
00:19:45
johngrimsmo
hmm.
00:19:46
John Saunders
It's also.
00:19:47
johngrimsmo
But I was only able to do those things, the house, the car in the past five, six years.
00:19:51
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:19:51
johngrimsmo
um The 10 years before that, wasn't able to do any of those things.
00:19:57
John Saunders
Same here though, John, from ah for from the manufacturing business, absolutely, for sure.
00:19:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:20:02
John Saunders
um when i've is i've heard I heard this from mentors earlier on, and I very much feel it now to where like I feel less inclined to answer these questions as I grow older, which is inverse, because it's like the more we go through life, the more maybe wisdom or experiences we have to share.
00:20:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:20:19
John Saunders
So i I find myself trying to find what's something I could say that maybe somebody hasn't heard before or is a different perspective.
00:20:24
johngrimsmo
That's funny.
00:20:26
John Saunders
um You know, first certainly if you go take like a basic investing class, you'll quickly learn that companies like Procter and Gamble who make Crest toothpaste and, in you know, laundry detergent, they may pay a high dividend.
00:20:40
John Saunders
Whereas a tech company that started up in AI, never pays a dividend. And the answer, which I certainly didn't infer, right someone had to teach me this, is that it's because Procter & Gamble doesn't have anything to do with um they they can't They can't spend a billion or whatever, $10 billion dollars a year in R&D. So their company profile on their stock is such that every year we pay our 2% dividend or 6% dividend because that money is better giving it back to the shareholders than it is for us to try to reinvent and create a new toothpaste.
00:21:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:21:09
John Saunders
like AI companies, tech companies, that's not appropriate for them to return money to the shareholders because every single dime goes into server farms and hiring talent and growth and advertising. They're high growth companies. So, um you know, us running very small, you know, micro manufacturing companies is different, except it's not. Like in the beginning, every dollar goes back in. It wouldn't be appropriate to try to think about, oh, I need to pay myself, not as a labor employee, but as a business owner.
00:21:39
John Saunders
oh But I think any small business, you want to hit that point where it does feel like you're, you know, does you do you own your business or does it own you?
00:21:45
johngrimsmo
Exactly. Yep.
00:21:47
John Saunders
um And you and I have talked about this on on the podcast. We talked about offline. i know you've gotten some examples from some mentors of yours. And I've decided to make like kind of a target metric um that I strive to hit. But the good news is doesn't matter if I don't hit it.
00:22:02
John Saunders
um And the reason I do that is... it actually solves kind of an inverse problem if if we're fortunate enough to have a quarter or a period where i can hit that target then it means without any personal guilt or or worry i can then reinvest every other dollar into discretionary stuff at saunders and that feels great like i don't care if we now buy new rego holders or a new wooden tables because If I paid myself X amount of dollars, I've done my job, um but which probably segues into the last sort of nugget around that, which is this is more complicated when you have many partners or even a single partner because capital calls and distributions aren't made individually.
00:22:32
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:22:44
John Saunders
They're made amongst a group of people and money does, you know, we talked about this a lot with Dylan in StrikeMark and all that money does funny things.
00:22:46
johngrimsmo
who
00:22:51
John Saunders
um
00:22:52
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:22:52
John Saunders
It's just more, if I want to pay myself $500 off, you got to pay every partner
00:22:56
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:22:58
John Saunders
that amount Do you really want to do that?
00:23:01
johngrimsmo
yeah Yep. Yep. Yeah. And Eric and I have definitely gone through that over the years. Um, and even if one person needs to take out something like down payment for a house or something like that, like, I'm just, I'm just going to do this.
00:23:10
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:23:12
johngrimsmo
And then the other people have to get owed that as well, either get paid out now or get paid out soon. But yeah.
00:23:18
John Saunders
Yep, right.
00:23:19
johngrimsmo
So like the other point I'll add is in the first few years of business, I mean, we had one kid and my wife went back to work part-time to support me and Eric and the business. Um,
00:23:31
johngrimsmo
do what we do. And it was, it wasn't until probably three or four years in that we could actually pay rent with the company. And that, that was like the first, you know, we didn't make a paycheck. We couldn't even pay rent.
00:23:41
johngrimsmo
We just like bought materials and tools and things like that.
00:23:42
John Saunders
yeah
00:23:44
johngrimsmo
And then once we could pay rent and she could stop working, we had our second kid, we had life. And then, uh, then the business could like, you know, pay our $800 and food. and and food and then And then it slowly, slowly, slowly grew from there. But it still even took a couple of years after that to pay ourselves like a fixed salary.
00:24:02
johngrimsmo
um
00:24:02
John Saunders
Yeah. You didn't though, maybe this is one of the bigger differences in our journeys. You never did all the sides work and hustle stuff. You never did the job shop work or other side business.
00:24:12
johngrimsmo
Correct.
00:24:14
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure like that.
00:24:15
johngrimsmo
Yes. okay
00:24:18
John Saunders
I was always going to do that. It's just in my profile to mitigate risk. And like, I don't just was, but I don't necessarily think it made me better.
00:24:22
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:24:26
John Saunders
It reduced the risk profile, brought in cash, blah, blah, blah. But like, it didn't, I don't have an answer on like, when you diversification is a lack of conviction. Like if you are dead set on this business around this product based thing, it's like, i I also respect the all in on it.
00:24:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it it might take your eye off the ball if you do too many things, especially that are not in your direct you know purview. But if I remember right, in your case, and I'd have to listen to Dylan's podcast to get the real thing, but...
00:24:56
johngrimsmo
at the time when you were doing job shoppy work at, in grandpa's garage, um did you have this, you know, Saunders machine works vision in mind?
00:25:01
John Saunders
on the
00:25:06
johngrimsmo
I'm going to make modular fixture plate. I'm going to do all that.
00:25:09
John Saunders
No, not even the, we we were buying and using fixture plates since the tag days.
00:25:09
johngrimsmo
like So you didn't have like the, the focus.
00:25:17
John Saunders
So that was like, there's a very wholesome desire for that.
00:25:17
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:25:20
John Saunders
um But no, I never like sat down and thought, ooh, business plan, opportunity,
00:25:24
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:25:25
John Saunders
focus it just kind of was like, yeah.
00:25:25
johngrimsmo
You just knew you wanted to machine things. you Yeah, exactly.
00:25:28
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:25:29
johngrimsmo
So it worked.
00:25:31
John Saunders
Yeah. Okay, decent segue to the other question. And all credit to Dylan. I guess I didn't really think about whether this is an uncool thing to do. This is actually technically a question from his Patreon guy.
00:25:44
John Saunders
So Dylan, I apologize if this is uncool.
Small Business Struggles and Sustainability
00:25:47
John Saunders
But Nick asked, was there a point in your journey where you came close to clearing the towel? And if I get a second question, can you give me some pros and cons about bootstrapping?
00:25:57
John Saunders
Bootstrapping.
00:25:59
johngrimsmo
You want to start this one?
00:26:01
John Saunders
Sure.
00:26:03
John Saunders
Never remotely came close to throwing in the towel. Like not even thing. Like I just, don't know, it sounds silly, but like I was putting this hurt to camera parts machine part. Like I love that.
00:26:15
John Saunders
um And being risk adverse, I never was going put myself in a situation where that was going to happen. I think there have been other struggles that...
00:26:28
John Saunders
It's awkward because it's like, I don't want to hide them and act all tough and look like I'm not affected by them. but there have been struggles along the way that are give you pause. I think anybody, any small business owner would be lying if they didn't say, man, ah that I don't want to deal with this today or why am I doing this?
00:26:39
johngrimsmo
Definitely. A
00:26:43
John Saunders
um And I think you and I've talked about it on the podcast. I mean, there are there are small businesses that probably take home less money than that person could go earn.
00:26:52
johngrimsmo
hundred percent.
00:26:52
John Saunders
And so you got to ask yourself, is it, is it what I want to do? Blah, blah, blah.
00:26:56
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:26:57
John Saunders
In terms bootstrapping, again, what can I tell you that people haven't already heard? um The phrase I wrote down that's in my little like things to revisit periodically list is bootstrapping isn't okay if you have the money, but you're not spending it and the task isn't getting done, period.
00:27:14
John Saunders
And so that's, I guess, the excuse as to why some things we still bootstrap because maybe they're too expensive or maybe we we bootstrap because the task is getting done, just not as well as it may need to.
00:27:19
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:26
John Saunders
But it's, you know, the example might be Area 419. I mean, they never bootstrapped. They started that company. Well, they ran that shop out of a garage in a pretty but bonkers fashion for a while.
00:27:37
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:27:38
John Saunders
But like they quickly then were like, hey, we're buying equipment. We're hiring people. We're, you know, package. Like they did it. So much better in some respects. And I give them a ton of credit for
00:27:48
johngrimsmo
Which in one way um gained them a lot of speed a lot quicker than somebody who bootstraps. um And I mean, we never had money to throw around ah
00:27:59
John Saunders
that. Yeah.
00:28:00
johngrimsmo
to solve problems like we've been we've been broke.
00:28:00
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:28:03
johngrimsmo
um So we do it ourselves for many, many years.
00:28:05
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:28:06
johngrimsmo
And even still, I still have that mentality. We still don't have tons of money to like throw at problems. So we're like, ah we're going to fix the current instead of spending thousands and thousands to get current to come here and do that.
00:28:16
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:28:17
johngrimsmo
Okay. Was that the right call? i don't know. We got it done. um Yeah, exactly.
00:28:21
John Saunders
Yeah, you did.
00:28:23
johngrimsmo
So it's, you know, we often call it the make-buy relationship. Like,
00:28:28
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:28:29
johngrimsmo
and Oh, there's this thing, that this problem that I want to solve. Can you buy the solution? well Well, yeah, but I could make it too. Cause I'm a machinist and like, okay, but how many hours is that going to take out of your life to do that thing that you could just throw money at and that money would be gone and you'd never think about it ever again. And you'd have your solution on your doorstep.
00:28:49
johngrimsmo
Um,
00:28:50
John Saunders
Really what you're saying is kind of the heart of being a value investor, which is like, I'll spend umll spend big bucks on something when it's a good value.
00:28:55
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:28:59
John Saunders
um But in the case of something that I can do myself in two or three days, and it would have cost say $13,000, I'm making this up, but you know to fly tech and all that.
00:29:07
johngrimsmo
There
00:29:08
John Saunders
It's like, it's not a good value. So there's weird, like I'm in a position in life, not to brag here, where like I can pay $3 $4 for a soda at a restaurant, Almost every time I refuse out of principle of like, that's not a good value. $4 for a pop is ridiculous to me.
00:29:27
John Saunders
So I bootstrap my beverage consumption, I guess.
00:29:29
johngrimsmo
you go. but I just drink water, so I'm cheap. I'm a cheap date.
00:29:33
John Saunders
Perfect.
00:29:35
johngrimsmo
um
00:29:36
John Saunders
Did you ever come? Sorry, go ahead.
00:29:38
johngrimsmo
What were you going
00:29:40
John Saunders
Was there ever a point in your journey where you came close throwing in the towel?
00:29:44
johngrimsmo
say? wouldn't say throw in the towel, but it's definitely occurred to me either by choice or by force.
00:29:50
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:29:52
johngrimsmo
Um, there's definitely been a lot of lows in the past 15 years of our company where it just, everything's just beating you down and you're, you feel like you're already buried.
00:30:03
johngrimsmo
Um, Usually time fixes those wounds or doing a silly fun side project kind of reinvigorates the, I do like what I do and I do feel like we're onto something and, you know, and you get good emails from customers and like, we're, we're doing a good thing here.
00:30:08
John Saunders
yeah
00:30:19
johngrimsmo
um Obviously that's a good thing has to be profitable enough to be self-sustainable. And we've definitely had ebbs and flows of that ratio throughout the years. um But like, if I really, you know, sat down and said,
00:30:35
johngrimsmo
would I throw in the towel? Like I never really put much effort into what would I do otherwise? You know, I wouldn't go out and get a job. I like if i had to, sure, but yeah, it you know, this is what I do.
00:30:46
John Saunders
yeah It'd be a stopgap at best. Great.
00:30:51
johngrimsmo
um
00:30:51
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:30:53
johngrimsmo
And there is, you know, a potential future where what I do is not um sustainable. like if this business didn't make money, you know, no matter how much I loved it, it's, it just wouldn't work.
00:31:02
John Saunders
What do you mean? Oh, yeah. Sure. What's it mean?
00:31:08
johngrimsmo
Like, and a lot of businesses are just that, you know, either it's just not a good idea or it's not run properly or it's, or your heart's not in it.
00:31:08
John Saunders
I don't know. Yeah, yeah
00:31:18
johngrimsmo
Um, or it's just too expensive. And, but yeah, no, I don't think I'd really, this, I don't this is what I do.
00:31:28
John Saunders
that's a fair point.
00:31:29
johngrimsmo
You
00:31:30
John Saunders
I remember, and this has been so long ago, and I think its when we were really getting to other a lot better. I remember how hard you you took the RASC, was it the RASC presale? Yeah.
00:31:41
John Saunders
I give you a lot of credit for pull how you pulled through on that, but I remember that was like, it was hard.
00:31:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah, that was though super tough. I mean, the the short version of that is we opened a pre-order, we took in two or three hundred orders and the money with that, 100% down payment, all the customers were legendary.
00:31:56
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:31:59
johngrimsmo
um That's a lot of money to be sitting on for a young company. And then we bought some tools and equipment and machines, got the Mori, And then took us a very very, very, very, very long time to fulfill all of those orders.
00:32:13
johngrimsmo
And even PayPal was getting pretty angry with that.
00:32:16
John Saunders
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:32:17
johngrimsmo
ah They locked our account. They prevented us from making more revenue. They did yadda yada, yada, yada. That was a tough time for us, 2016, 2015. But we did pull through it and we filled every single order and we made everybody whole and then some, and then we'll moved on from there.
00:32:33
John Saunders
Yeah. I'm sorry. i didn't, I guess I don't need, didn't even bring that up. Like dredge the past.
00:32:36
johngrimsmo
it's fine it's like 10 years ago yeah it's part of the story right and it's like forges you into who you are today um and same with the bootstrapping thing like solving a problem yourself can teach you a lot of lessons um it can teach you the skill of making a thing it can teach you how to solve problems it can teach you how to fix a thing and you know fix a machine instead of just throwing money at every problem and having no no skills from it however
00:32:38
John Saunders
Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
00:33:01
John Saunders
Right.
00:33:05
johngrimsmo
ah say in the case of like a $300 item that is you readily off the shelf, the Rego fix holder or something like that. and you're like, but I can make it myself.
00:33:12
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:33:14
johngrimsmo
Like, dude, that spend the money and move on.
00:33:18
John Saunders
Yeah. Totally.
00:33:21
johngrimsmo
Actually, and Angelo said something to me today that he's telling his guys.
00:33:21
John Saunders
Totally.
00:33:25
johngrimsmo
He said, time is irreplaceable. Don't waste it.
00:33:29
John Saunders
Yeah. You can always earn like one of the things I'll sometimes say if I'm having a tougher day is just like, okay, just work longer. Like in life, like, ah like what?
00:33:37
johngrimsmo
Yeah, the
00:33:39
John Saunders
Like, um okay, great. Yeah.
00:33:46
John Saunders
Okay. Random change of topics.
Using AI for Metallurgy Research
00:33:48
John Saunders
What do you use for AI?
00:33:51
johngrimsmo
chatoo be
00:33:52
John Saunders
That's it.
00:33:53
johngrimsmo
yeah I don't think I've really tried much else seriously.
00:33:53
John Saunders
Okay. Yep.
00:33:55
johngrimsmo
du Yeah, I've been on the paid version for a bit.
00:33:55
John Saunders
That's fair. The honest answer is just ChatGPT. I did just get access to the paid version. But... Okay. Yeah, which is...
00:34:06
John Saunders
I guess I don't, like, i mean, like, compared them or AB'd them, but, like, it's it's great. It's just insane.
00:34:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And now that they have all the projects and like sub projects and things like that, I've, I've got all kinds of different ones and it's great.
00:34:16
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:34:19
John Saunders
I love how like wrong I am. Like I'll be like, there's no way I could understand this. And you ask it and you're like, oh my God, it's referencing things.
00:34:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:34:26
John Saunders
i even asked, to the I've also been using it for metallurgy. And i was like asking it to compare 1144 stress proof versus 4040 free hard.
00:34:33
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:34:34
John Saunders
And not only did it give me a great comparison, it then built a chart. And then I said, well, which one's more expensive? And it's like, based on what I could learn from McMaster and Auro, it looks like X is about X more. i'm like, you got to kidding me.
00:34:45
John Saunders
This is just insane.
00:34:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah, in in that context, I view it as literally having a conversation with someone who knows most things. um It's not always right, and it's not always true.
00:34:55
John Saunders
Right. And you don't know when it's not right.
00:34:58
johngrimsmo
Exactly. And that is, I mean, you and I have, i was thinking about this the other day, you and I have like 30 years of experience researching interesting things before AI, you know?
00:35:09
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:35:10
johngrimsmo
So we have a ah handle on how our BS meter and how to like properly so fact check sources and things like that.
00:35:10
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:35:14
John Saunders
theres
00:35:19
johngrimsmo
And then our counter argument is like, you know, kids, new new people starting this, trusting everything it says is like dangerous. You and I know that, but not everybody does.
00:35:30
John Saunders
On the flip side, an argument that I haven't heard as much because people do talk about hallucination as so being systemically problematic. Okay, I hear you, but like, guess what?
00:35:41
John Saunders
Been plenty of trade shows where somebody has basically live purposefully or inadvertently fibbed about a spec or capability.
00:35:43
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:35:49
John Saunders
So it's like, man, it's not like that doesn't exist in the real world.
00:35:52
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:35:53
John Saunders
You know, hallucinations or or inaccuracies.
00:35:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah, and what I'm really starting to like more about it than Google for a search, a random search, is you can ask it a paragraph of a question.
00:36:06
John Saunders
Thank you.
00:36:10
johngrimsmo
And it will answer you. Whereas Google, it's it's pulling up websites that might have the keywords that you're looking for. It's like, just give me a black or white answer.
00:36:20
johngrimsmo
Like, just tell me. And even if it's wrong, I'd rather just explain it to me like I'm five, you know?
00:36:27
John Saunders
That's what was saying to a buddy the other day. i was like, it's been an interesting sort of semi-conscious behavior pattern because you know you and I are kind of set in our ways. We've been using the internet for two over 20 years and we have our routines and our resources.
00:36:37
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:36:39
John Saunders
And so, you know, even I gave Dylan a hard time. like, Dylan, I don't like you because you make me feel old. Um, and he's not even the youngest guy in the like in instant machining community, but like he, so for, like he was saying on, on his podcast,
00:36:52
John Saunders
It auto transcribes it into a text document. He then can read that text document. And let's say in the middle of the podcast, I said the phrase, I really liked to read merry-go-rounds. And I emailed him after the podcast. i was like, hey Dylan, I wish I hadn't said that.
00:37:06
John Saunders
All he has to do is go to that text, control F, search for merry-go-round, select that sentence, hit delete, and it updates the audio.
00:37:12
johngrimsmo
No. What?
00:37:16
John Saunders
So you and I are officially old.
00:37:18
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:37:19
John Saunders
oh And it's just like, I don't know what I don't know. so on that note, I use HatchiBT. I'm using it more and more as like just my go-to choice. um I've heard good things about perplexity. So I want to check that out.
00:37:30
John Saunders
I've also been as kind of one of those other things you learn, skills you learn. I've been much better in the last year about just putting stuff on my to-do list and not worrying about it. Like it's okay. Like ignoring the FOMO, like maybe I'm not using the latest and greatest or missing out on stuff.
00:37:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:37:45
John Saunders
Cause it's just like, yeah.
00:37:45
johngrimsmo
Totally. I'm okay with that too.
00:37:46
John Saunders
Yeah. The rest of my day, got to make a part on the Tormach. I got to make a part on the horizontal, on the VF2 and then hang with my kids. Like I'm not gonna, if I'm perplexed, season's on the low, lower on list.
00:37:58
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:37:59
John Saunders
That being said, i enjoy keeping a toe in the water. Is that the phrase? Like I don't want to just be left in the dust.
00:38:07
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Like how we use chat GPT now, if we ignored the whole AI thing, I don't know, I feel like I'm better for the experience.
00:38:15
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:38:16
johngrimsmo
Massively.
Visit to Adam Booth's Shop and Gorilla Fab Stand
00:38:18
John Saunders
had the chance to visit Mr. Adam Booth. We were down in, yeah, we went down to the Gulf, or not Gulf Shores, pen Panhandle for a quick beach vacation with the kids.
00:38:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I saw your little pictures, yeah.
00:38:28
John Saunders
And we were pretty close to Pensacola. And I was like, hey, you want to stop by He's like, love to see you. And um got to see his shop. He had a beautiful surface plate. We were showing the kids surface gauges. Actually, he had the Gorilla Fab stand.
00:38:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah, i saw, okay. What you think?
00:38:41
John Saunders
So that was, it's way bigger than I thought.
00:38:42
johngrimsmo
good It is big.
00:38:44
John Saunders
In a mostly good way.
00:38:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:38:47
John Saunders
The build quality is definitely there. The like lockup and release is phenomenal. It's super stable. Yeah, all in all, i didn't i I was there to visit him for half an hour, so it wasn't I didn't get the chance to like interrogate the product.
00:39:00
johngrimsmo
Of course. Yeah, yeah.
00:39:02
John Saunders
Not that i'd even qualified to, frankly, but it is markedly different than our Herman Schmidt, which is palm-sized.
00:39:09
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:39:10
John Saunders
you know I don't think anybody would argue that Hermann Schmitt isn't top of the line quality, but it's also, I like the Gorilla approach with the stability of it felt like in the knob. I'll show you on one. How do you like it?
00:39:24
johngrimsmo
Exactly that. it It is large and in charge. um I think if he made a mini, he would crush pretty hard, but um it's just big, it's stable, it's great.
00:39:30
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:39:33
johngrimsmo
It's um being on three feet, I've actually tipped it sometimes because it's a tripod, so it can it doesn't go far, but it um you know it'll walk off the three feet just a little bit.
00:39:38
John Saunders
Interesting.
00:39:45
johngrimsmo
Otherwise, it's great. i love it. sort I find my guys don't tend to use it as much as I thought they would. they they We have a height gauge. on the surface plate that just gets used more.
00:39:56
johngrimsmo
I'm like, come on, like use the cool one.
00:39:57
John Saunders
That's interesting. Yeah, right?
00:39:58
johngrimsmo
and
00:39:59
John Saunders
That is interesting.
00:39:59
johngrimsmo
That's habit. That's what they've been using for years, um, for just basic layout stuff.
00:40:06
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:40:06
johngrimsmo
And, uh, yeah, i don't know if they're scared to use the big fancy one. That's that's John's toy or something. I don't know, but, um, yeah, it's interesting.
00:40:14
John Saunders
Yeah, that is interesting. Otherwise, I'm, I'll save this for next week, but I want to talk about my summer. It's not it's not a summer to-do list, but it's, but it had the feelings of that, yeah, of all the stuff that I'm not getting to.
00:40:27
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:40:31
johngrimsmo
Yep,
00:40:32
John Saunders
Not a bad way, but just like, okay, let's let's think through realistically, okay, it's end of June now, what do what do you want to get done?
00:40:34
johngrimsmo
yep.
00:40:37
John Saunders
And, you know, it goes very much back to whatever we were talking about earlier in this podcast, where it's like, It's, oh, bootstrapping. Like, it's it's it's kind of like, okay, if you're not getting it done, it's not okay if you had the time you're not getting it done, or you just have to be honest with yourself, like, this is why I'm not getting it done.
00:40:56
johngrimsmo
yeah yeah
00:40:57
John Saunders
Am I picking up a new fun site project because I just don't want to do the tasks I told myself I would? That's the kind of discipline that try to self-impose.
00:41:04
johngrimsmo
Right, which is not necessarily a bad thing always, as long as you're getting done the things you need to get done.
00:41:07
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:41:10
John Saunders
Yeah.
3D Printing Challenges with Johnny Five
00:41:12
John Saunders
The fun they I've been doing is... um print 3D printing a ton of Johnny five covers that go around his metal exoskeleton and then
00:41:22
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:41:23
John Saunders
Um, I, I found with that project, it didn't, it wasn't always great to print stuff when you knew you weren't to need it for six months. Cause just, you just, don't know, maybe you get lost.
00:41:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:41:33
John Saunders
It just didn't work like you. There's some flow you have to have to it and it's better to have stuff kind of just in time.
00:41:37
johngrimsmo
Oh,
00:41:39
John Saunders
And so now I'm printing what I need and then I'm Bondoing. I really don't want to bondo a ton cause it's so much more work. Even if you don't think it is, it just is. But I bonded a bunch of stuff that had mediocre print quality that I did, didn't want to throw out and reprint.
00:41:53
John Saunders
Now I'm being a little bit more diligent to say, i don't care if it's an 18 hour print, if it's done then in good condition, but then masking and painting. So seeing it paint and come to life is really fun um to do.
00:42:05
johngrimsmo
ah cool.
00:42:06
John Saunders
So that's, that's been fun. And a big thank you to you. I don't know if anybody would know this or we shared it, but there's a linear actuator that I need and I couldn't get it because the stupid tariffs thing, they wouldn't ship to U S anymore.
00:42:18
John Saunders
And Grimso did me a solid and, and made it happen. I'll leave it at that.
00:42:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so I'm not sure if it has shipped yet, but it's in the my shipping guy's hands.
00:42:26
John Saunders
Yeah, I got tracking, so thank you very much.
00:42:28
johngrimsmo
Okay, so it's been shipped. Perfect.
00:42:29
John Saunders
I appreciate that.
00:42:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I left it on our little shipping table downstairs with a sticky note with your address on it, and I just said, ship this to Saunders, and it's done. I didn't even get a confirmation.
00:42:37
John Saunders
Great. That's the way to do it.
00:42:40
johngrimsmo
I'm like, I think it's somewhere.
00:42:42
John Saunders
It threw me at first because I got a Grimsville and have shipping order. I'm like, what? what did i Did I do something last night?
00:42:45
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:47
John Saunders
i didn't remember.
00:42:49
johngrimsmo
Hey, I'll take it.
00:42:50
John Saunders
um No, so thank you.
00:42:51
johngrimsmo
Yeah, absolutely.
00:42:52
John Saunders
a Yeah. What's going on today
New Grinding Setup Testing on Speedio
00:42:55
johngrimsmo
um I'm testing, i might have mentioned to you couple weeks ago, the way we grind our Rask and Fjallblades on the Speedio is along the x-axis.
00:42:55
John Saunders
or this week?
00:43:05
johngrimsmo
I want to rotate the fixture 90 degrees along the y-axis, which ended up requiring a lot of changes.
00:43:06
John Saunders
Oh, yeah.
00:43:11
johngrimsmo
It sounds easy, but it was actually a lot.
00:43:12
John Saunders
no
00:43:14
johngrimsmo
And remember my um ah chat GPT generated Python script to generate code grinding code it's fantastic it works great i had to add features to it so again using chat gpt to be like without screwing up what works i need you to add these features so i like on my desktop i copied and pasted you know working backup code so that anything new comes in i can side by side them in visual studio and i can see oh you changed this you oh don't do that um so i add
00:43:21
John Saunders
Yes.
00:43:32
John Saunders
really cool.
00:43:37
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:43:45
John Saunders
That's a great feature that I think people don't know about. Can you explain the Visual Studio Compare?
00:43:49
johngrimsmo
Oh yeah, um compare and edit for two different files. um You go into the Explorer and you click on one and you right or shift click the second one or whatever and right click and go compare. Put some two side by side as a new like third file and then it automatically highlights any differences.
00:44:06
johngrimsmo
And it's it's fantastic. And if there's like a million differences, it really struggles and lags. But if there's, you know, 50 or less, it just highlights them. And you're like, yes. So when doing post edits, it's the greatest.
00:44:17
johngrimsmo
um In this example, it's awesome. And so I had it. um I worked with chat GPT to add um a feature. Am I shifting? Am I doing backlash competition in X or in Y?
00:44:31
johngrimsmo
And it works great. So the way I'm
00:44:33
John Saunders
Good.
00:44:34
johngrimsmo
yeah, the way I'm chop grinding where I go up, down, up, down, up, down, it also goes away from the cut five thou and then towards the cut five thou to eliminate any backlash.
00:44:42
John Saunders
Okay.
00:44:44
johngrimsmo
We're always coming into the cut.
00:44:45
John Saunders
Into the kite. I'm with you.
00:44:46
johngrimsmo
Um, but that didn't like that was hard coded to do it and why, and now I need it next or the other way around.
00:44:46
John Saunders
Okay.
00:44:53
johngrimsmo
So I had to add that feature.
00:44:55
John Saunders
Can I make a humble insight suggestion?
00:44:56
johngrimsmo
Or it's great. Yep.
00:44:58
John Saunders
I remember once, I believe it was the Hermley guy saying that people have blown ah fried ball screws. If you don't move the axis enough, it starves over.
00:45:08
johngrimsmo
a
00:45:09
John Saunders
So they would have people that would take a Hermley and they would surface a 20,000 feature for like 30 minutes. Some kind of crazy scenario.
00:45:15
johngrimsmo
yeah yeah i know what you mean yeah Kern told me that too um if you're doing if you're doing micro milling in the tiniest little zone um and they said even if you just move away three inches and come back three inches you're like adding fresh oil to that area of the ball screw um that's a good question
00:45:17
John Saunders
ah You would starve the ball screw oil.
00:45:21
John Saunders
Okay. Maybe I heard from but don't know.
00:45:39
johngrimsmo
No, that's probably fine. oh Yeah, it's a good thing to think about, though, because I didn't think about that. But
00:45:48
John Saunders
Have you run one yet?
00:45:49
johngrimsmo
like I did just for the podcast, I did a test cut. And I had my I have some modifiers in the code to be like, so I can type in 2000 and it'll grind 2000 away.
00:46:00
John Saunders
Okay.
00:46:01
johngrimsmo
Or 2000 closer and I had that backwards. So I did plus 2000 ground 2000 more.
00:46:04
John Saunders
Ah.
00:46:05
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, Okay, now I know.
00:46:08
John Saunders
Linda's not gonna be happy.
00:46:09
johngrimsmo
Exactly. It was fine. um I did it on a scrap blade that was already undersized to begin with, so it's fine but
00:46:17
John Saunders
Is that what led to the blade you put up on Instagram that looks like it got guillotine?
00:46:19
johngrimsmo
fine. The Norseman? Yeah, the cracked in half Norseman. No, that's a Magna Cut blade and we the guys acid etched it and apparently we learned the hard way.
MagnaCut Blade Stress Testing and Humor
00:46:30
johngrimsmo
You can't acid etch the Magna Cut steel because it eats weirdly.
00:46:36
johngrimsmo
It just looks like
00:46:36
John Saunders
Interesting.
00:46:38
johngrimsmo
you know, like hot rolled steel.
00:46:40
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:46:41
johngrimsmo
It looks like that when when you etch it.
00:46:42
John Saunders
Like just scale.
00:46:44
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Like scale, like disgusting.
00:46:45
John Saunders
Oh, weird.
00:46:46
johngrimsmo
Anyway, i don't I don't, know if that's why broke, but sometimes they warp a little bit. So Eric will put them in the arbor press and, um, you know, just massage them straight.
00:46:53
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:46:54
johngrimsmo
So the blade is centered and it snapped and that's, it's happened sometimes, but very, very rarely.
00:46:58
John Saunders
Noken.
00:47:02
johngrimsmo
And so now we just have this stubby blade. He put it back in the knife and he's like, So that was like a year ago, but I saw it on the guy's desk and I was like, this is funny.
00:47:07
John Saunders
It's good.
00:47:09
John Saunders
Oh, it was funny.
00:47:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:47:11
John Saunders
OK. Got it.
00:47:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah. yeah Yeah, man.
00:47:14
John Saunders
Cool.
00:47:16
John Saunders
you next week.
00:47:18
johngrimsmo
Same bad time, same bad place.
00:47:20
John Saunders
Sounds good. I'll see
00:47:21
johngrimsmo
All right. See you, man. Bye. Bye.
00:47:22
John Saunders
OK.