Transcript
johngrimsmo: Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining episode 419, area 419.
John Saunders: Yes.
johngrimsmo: um This is your weekly dose of manufacturing where John and John talk about what's going on in their businesses. We make things. I posted that on Instagram yesterday. like, we make things.
johngrimsmo: that's That's what we do. I like that.
John Saunders: We make things. Yeah, agreed.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: I had been trying to come up with some whimsy way of tying in Area 419, which like they're not part of either of our stories other than similar age, you know, part of the instant machinist community have a phenomenal company growth wise shooting sports.
johngrimsmo: No.
John Saunders: But and we've done shop interviews, discussions with them, but like, yeah, that's all got.
johngrimsmo: That's it.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: Shop full of DMGs and groves and what's our good.
johngrimsmo: But it's, yeah, it's ah inspiration for all of us, you know, like, they they have and do things that we don't do, so it's nice to look up to them.
johngrimsmo: And maybe we haven't thing have and do things that they don't do, and they look up, and it's this whole, like, you know, everybody just wants everybody to succeed in their own way.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: How are you? What's new? two
johngrimsmo: Not too much new. We're just kind of head down, um trying to wrap up a lot of things so that we can smooth everything out and then you know go on to new projects over time.
johngrimsmo: um Coming back from Blade Show, the ah packages are still in Atlanta.
John Saunders: No.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Oh my God.
johngrimsmo: Wild, right? I mean, I know exactly where they are, but yeah, that's fun.
John Saunders: I thought they were going to get turned around in Kentucky.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, no, they, they were. And then they traveled to Atlanta, false delivered, which is dumb because I'd already initiated a return to sender.
John Saunders: Yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: And then now they've been stuck in the Atlanta UPS hub. I don't know stuck is the right word, but they're not moving, um, for the past like week and half, two weeks almost.
johngrimsmo: Um, I, I've been on the phone with UPS a lot, called them a bunch times and, um, They said, ah yeah everything's in place. It should return to sender. You should have them by Thursday, which is tomorrow for me now.
johngrimsmo: and And I said, if I don't, then she said, call back and we'll find the next steps. um
John Saunders: You know, what infuriates me, ah if I'm like willing to look past the just look, you're part of the, you were part of the, I'm sorry. There were explainable hiccups that you sort of contributed to like the whole cuss or last minute shipping, but like you also insured it and then you insured a huge sum and like,
johngrimsmo: Totally.
johngrimsmo: True.
John Saunders: The point wasn't just the return of the product. The point would be the return of or the delivery of the product in a reasonable timeframe. And I find it infuriating to think that your, if I recall the insurance alone was four figures, that they don't owe you some of that back for not, yeah, not be more attentive to, you know, sorry, that's just frustrating.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Non-delivery.
johngrimsmo: Right, right.
johngrimsmo: No, it's interesting because I'm um no longer P.O. about it.
John Saunders: Yeah, can tell.
johngrimsmo: um I'm like, i I will handle it, but i'm the the emotions have gone, which is good. And now it's just kind of a okay, what's next? What do we do? um
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I honestly ah would fly down to Atlanta and get them myself and fly them back. um However, the last time I talked to UPS last week, they said that's no longer an option because I've initiated a return to sender.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: not to mention flying with ah fine with these doesn't always prove to be a good idea.
johngrimsmo: ah
johngrimsmo: ah Across a border, I could fly back to Buffalo and be good.
John Saunders: okay. Got it.
johngrimsmo: But... Yeah, so still an option, even though UPS told me it's no longer an option. If if they haven't moved, it's still an option.
John Saunders: yeah Yeah, exactly. That's kind of like the frustrating thing is that like somebody could solve this now.
johngrimsmo: Right?
John Saunders: Like if this were...
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John Saunders: you this is not realistic, but like if this was Jeff Bezos or Bill Gates, somebody would be called and go down there and get the package and fix this right now.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, right.
John Saunders: And I understand we're not that person, but like,
johngrimsmo: right And this is a huge, huge order. This is tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars of merchandise.
John Saunders: right.
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: And yeah, and I mean, you hear about these things happening where, you know, it's a stuck, stuck, stuck, and then oops, it's lost. And that is a zero option for us right now.
John Saunders: Yeah. Well, that's to say time is not on your side here, John, either.
johngrimsmo: Right, exactly.
John Saunders: Like to your point. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: o
johngrimsmo: Now they are
John Saunders: Did you pay for the insurance with a credit card?
johngrimsmo: Uh, yeah.
John Saunders: Do you do a charge? I'm sorry. I don't say this willy and noy because I'm not, I'm not that kind of a person. um I've done, I've done two chargebacks in my life and um one of them was about to be, sorry, a third one would have been UPS two weeks ago. i don't even remember sharing this story.
johngrimsmo: No.
John Saunders: It's not a, it's a story I'll tell, keep very short. Fraudulent, somebody used our account fraudulently. It was clear that based on the origin and destination, it wasn't us. I submitted a dispute. I lost the dispute.
John Saunders: I emailed our rep. We don't use UPS. We have a rep. We don't use them. So don't have any leverage. Not that I would if we were a regular volume shipper, but I but i was like, hey, I don't remember my Susan.
John Saunders: I like, Susan, this is what's happening. This needs to be fixed or else I need a... I'm going to file a charge back. And she was like, oh, we'll give you a credit. This is for 300 bucks. So not the of the world, but like, not going to let it slide.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And like, we'll give you a credit on future orders. And I'm like, no, it doesn't work because when we do use UPS, it's auto builder credit card. auto pay is all set up. I don't want to break it to start tabulating charges and recrediting them.
John Saunders: And was like, you need to refund me. She got it taken care of. And so I give her credit, but she had this attitude of like, this is your problem, not mine. I'm like, I'm not sure if you're familiar with consumer protection. projection mechanisms of credit card chargebacks, but you're you're this one you're going to lose also because you've already admitted in email that you owe us this money back.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: yeah yeah This is not my problem. like
John Saunders: So it's like i insurance didn't work here, so I'd like my money back on that part.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Interesting.
John Saunders: Worst thing you do lose it, but lose the dispute or chargeback.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, right? Against a huge mega clongo conglomerate. like Or, you know, best case, it just passes through and it works.
John Saunders: I don't think that they, don't, well, so I'll just share.
johngrimsmo: don't know.
John Saunders: I had conflicting feelings about this one, but I did, the first ever chargeback I did was years ago for something that was very concrete. The second one I did was more recently, and we ordered some really big Johnny Five 3D prints from one of the online printing services that farms them out.
John Saunders: And the prints showed up, this is about $500 worth of PLA 3D prints. So like, oh, okay, sorry, don't repeat myself.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, you mentioned this, yeah. But you didn't mention the chargebacker, and you just mentioned being very unhappy with them.
John Saunders: very unhappy, reached out. And at first they were like pound sand. Then they were like, well, that's what happens. And then they were like, well, we could remake some of them for you. And then it's just like, so you're, these are like, I can't emphasize this enough, complete dog baloney.
John Saunders: Um, nobody would be like, oh John, you're being picky.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Like major gaps in layer lines, delamination holes that were, that have so much, you're just terrible. Um, and so i was like, i'm gonna do chargeback because they're not paying, they're not even paying attention to it. And so, um, I won.
John Saunders: Anyway.
johngrimsmo: good to know um yeah go go no
John Saunders: On that. Okay. Oh, I have a bunch of like random little stuff. I have to laugh because you and I don't swear, but I turned that filter off with my um two hour discussion with Dylan, which I really, I really,
johngrimsmo: um i haven't listened to that yet okay the with intolerance podcast yeah
John Saunders: Yeah, so I really enjoyed it. I haven't really sat down and told the whole my whole story, maybe maybe ever, but certainly, you look to be honest, most people most of the time people don't want to hear you talk for that long or about yourself.
John Saunders: But it seemed more appropriate given that this is a story about Dylan asked questions, how we get to where we got.
johngrimsmo: yeah for sure.
John Saunders: and so um I give Dylan a lot of credit. He's a great host. He's a great kind of interviewer and steerer of the conversation. um So, and Dylan does a great, i mean, with Intolerance tolerance does, um you know, numbers of great interviews and folks in the industry.
John Saunders: But um if folks want to listen, it's the first time I think I've really kind of laid out in one sit down, like, hey, this was how grew up. but This is the jobs I had. This is when and where I left. This is what happened with Strike Mark. This is what happened with the partnership. This is the time. It was really weird. Even Yvonne was like, did he research you or how does he know all these things? And it's like, um I mean, don't know. But um asking little questions like, did Strike Mark blow up before you left your job or after you left your job in New York to Ohio? and Anyway, um it was a fun conversation.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: I enjoyed it.
johngrimsmo: good
John Saunders: And I had, there were a couple of questions that we got. I think one that Dylan got that we didn't get to. I thought maybe it's okay with you. I would address those um here, but first I had a note to ask you about some 465 material for Fjell buttons.
johngrimsmo: yeah for sure exactly um they are cutting on the swiss as we speak right now
John Saunders: How's that for timing?
johngrimsmo: um material finally came in and then uh we'll be heat treating tomorrow yeah
John Saunders: Oh, awesome. Remind me, I guess I don't even now remember, you found this material or you were optimistic about it. What's the backstory?
johngrimsmo: yeah it's um honestly chat gpt kind of reminded me of it but it's uh i've had many conversations with above metallurgy with chat gpt lately um as well as my own actual research but Um, it's one of those materials where like aerospace guys are like, oh yeah, I've worked with that before, but nobody remembers it at the top of their tongue. Like try this kind of thing.
johngrimsmo: Um, and in that case, like Angelo has worked with it before. He's like, yeah, we just make landing gear components out of it. Like back in the day. It's great. was like, like, you yeah, just could have told me that a year ago.
John Saunders: Sure.
johngrimsmo: uh, it is stainless it's, it's like 17, four pH, but, um,
John Saunders: It's stainless.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: said tougher, to harder, uh, heat treatable.
John Saunders: Oh.
johngrimsmo: Cause that kind of tops out at 45 Rockwell, um, at the age 900 grade, this can get up into the fifties, um, low, mid high fifties, depending on how you do it.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Uh, we'll see, we'll see tomorrow.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Um, But it's just it's just great. And from what I've gathered, comparing to 440C, it should be significantly tougher and significantly more dent resistant, which is our big problem with 440 right now, where being used as a button, as a detent and a locking mechanism, it just impacts and it dents.
John Saunders: Yeah, right, right.
johngrimsmo: And that's not good for what we need it for. I need it, you know, ideally it was it is very hard and very non-dentable and it just is the standard that moves out of the way instead of deforming in the way you know
John Saunders: What is the ball hardness?
johngrimsmo: ah when the balls we normally use for other knives or the blade but basically a sharp edge on the blade um
John Saunders: Or what? Sorry, you when you say that the pin is detenting, what is pushing into it causing the detent?
John Saunders: Oh, okay, I'm with you, i understand. Oh, then that should be easy to have a material that's harder than the blade.
johngrimsmo: ah Depending. You also want it stainless. You also want it polishable. There's a lot of factors to it. um And in bar form as well. And you can't go so hard just to be like carbide because that's brittle and super hard to make and
John Saunders: Yeah, but I was thinking that you were using and a ball bearing or similar where that might be 65 Rockwell or something of the sorts where it's like, I don't know how you're going to not have it. I mean, this is your, if it were ball bearings around it, I'm thinking of the the saga.
John Saunders: It's like, that is literally a Rockwell test. Every time you use it, pushing, pushing ball bearing into the surface.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, exactly.
johngrimsmo: Yep. And for our um Rask and Norseman, we use a ceramic bearing ball for the detent. And that's like, i don't even know how hard a ceramic ball is.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: 70, 80, 90, like super hard.
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: um But yeah, it's not just the hardness. It's the toughness too, because I, I feel like um even 4.65 softer hardness can be a lot tougher and lot more resistant to keeping a dent.
johngrimsmo: It will just kind of deform and do what it's got to do while springing back.
John Saunders: interesting
johngrimsmo: um But we will find out tomorrow.
John Saunders: Yeah, it is fair enough.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, so super excited.
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: But it's machine it's machining really well.
John Saunders: Have you heard...
johngrimsmo: It's tough, but it's like 32 Rockwell, so it's not soft, not hard.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: But yeah, it's machining great.
John Saunders: It makes a good chip.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, Jeff said it was rap wrapping like chip wrapping quite a bit. So when the subspindle comes in to part it off to grab it, um sometimes he's got chip wrapping problems.
John Saunders: Got it.
johngrimsmo: So he's got to either chip break or do a backward spring pass to like switch it off.
John Saunders: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: He thought of that and wants to try that.
John Saunders: Yep.
johngrimsmo: So not sure what he'll land on, but he'll figure it out.
John Saunders: Have you heard of a material called Fire Chrome?
johngrimsmo: No.
John Saunders: Robin Ranzetti, actually he told us there's another version that's discontinued. It's not Fire Stick, but it's like, it's a cool fire name. But um this stuff is, i don't think it's a solution. think it's solution for you, but it was still interesting.
John Saunders: um It is similar-ish. Take this with a grain of salt, not a metallurgist, but has similar-ish properties to 17-4, although it's an H13 tool steel.
John Saunders: It can be available in a
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: 40 to 45 Rockwell form. um And it's comes, you know, can come pre.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: So H13 drill rod, AKA fire chrome is an excellent hot work tool steel combination of shock and resistance, red hardness and abrasion resistance. And there's another version that I think is all for all practical purposes, identical, but maybe trademark that's no longer made, but ah we had a, we're doing some testing on those expanding pins. And so we're looking at different versions of material. And that was one that Robin had recommended.
johngrimsmo: Cool.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: look Looks like max hardness 50? Yeah.
John Saunders: I think that sounds right. Yeah. It's certainly not your sixties type tool steel.
johngrimsmo: um yeah
John Saunders: Although talking off the top of my head, I think H13 could be harder. So there may be something about this in a pre-hard form that it's already limited out. I don't know. Can you take let's say A2, if you have A2 and you, he treated it to 45, could you then do more work on it if you want to and then take it from 45 to 60, I guess?
johngrimsmo: I think there are some caveats because I looked into that. um And whoever I was talking to basically said that's not the greatest idea because carbide formation or something like, i don't know.
John Saunders: Because. Got it. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: But yeah, yeah. Then there's like A2, D2 kind of options that are, you can get to low 60s, you know, pretty easily.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm. Seven. Sure, sure, sure.
johngrimsmo: And we did think about, like we have A2 in stock. um We did think about making some buttons out of that just to get them hard, hard.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: See what they do. We haven't gone that far yet. And I and want it to be stayless.
John Saunders: Fair enough. you. um Before I go to back to Dylan, the folks at Toolpath is top of mind because Kenda Metal made an investment Toolpath. They came out to Ohio for a board meeting where they we finalized this. So first time I've met you know executives at Kenda Metal, they were very kind. They were very complimentary. They sent us a really nice um they so there's some It's some legacy thing that they did. I think they have extras of it.
John Saunders: It's wonderful. It's called Metal Mania. It was a 2024 cutting tour. This is gift box with a ton of really nice stuff in it. Very much appreciated. More importantly, though, for everybody listening, Toolpath is now doing a promotion where they have, I believe, don't quote me on this, the next 70 subscribers to Toolpath get are eligible for a similar box.
John Saunders: I don't think it's the exact same contents, but it's a pretty legit um cutting tool giveaway. So shameless plug, check out toolpath on Instagram, et cetera.
johngrimsmo: Cool.
John Saunders: If it's the right fit, don't just sign up for this thing, but like if it's the right fit, certainly seeing what's coming again with AI is, you know, we're not, we're so we're still in the first inning there.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Um, so let's talk about throwbacks. I used to fidget at my desk with a staple remover and I'm like, this is not the best fidget toy.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: So you know what I dug out of the archives?
johngrimsmo: were I know. Nice boy. That thing has patinaed.
John Saunders: the Right?
johngrimsmo: agree. We didn't even name it. It was just the Grim's most spinner 16 or 17.
John Saunders: What year do you think this would have been?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: that right? Seven, eight years old.
johngrimsmo: yeah If you, if you unscrew the, um, the buttons.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Oh really?
johngrimsmo: Yeah. I've got the date engraved on the underneath.
John Saunders: Of course you do.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Probably says made in Canada too.
johngrimsmo: Uh, I don't think it does.
John Saunders: Oh it does on script.
John Saunders: Oh, look at this 2017 Grimstone knives. Look at that thread. Yeah, look at this. That's cool.
johngrimsmo: Nice.
John Saunders: Anyway. um
johngrimsmo: Cool. Good seat.
John Saunders: Okay, the questions that I wanted to address, which I think actually, honestly, both of us should answer. The first question is, where did I just put it now?
John Saunders: Maybe put on my sheet. Um, ah, yes. Charlie from Australia asked, could you ask John his opinion on the balance of running a small business of reinvesting in the company versus pay payouts, distributions, et cetera.
John Saunders: You want to, do you want chime in on that?
johngrimsmo: Yeah. I mean, I don't have the best. um
johngrimsmo: I have reinvested almost all of any money and taken out very, very little for our family um to a point to the detriment of our family.
John Saunders: Everyone.
johngrimsmo: Like we live a comfortable life, but we don't have much extra. And part of that's my design, especially in the beginning, but getting to the point now where it's you know what, it'd be kind of nice to like be a bit more comfortable at home.
johngrimsmo: Um, so that's definitely top of mind, but in the beginning, like you, you make your choices. what are you going to do? I don't regret pouring every penny back into the business to grow what we've done.
John Saunders: Absolutely, yeah.
johngrimsmo: And everybody's at a different point in their lives, you know, with, with kids and relationships and things like that. And sometimes you can get away with it. Sometimes you can't get away with it. Um, so it's a personal decision everybody's got to make, but yeah, I've definitely, um,
johngrimsmo: poured almost everything back into the business and take out enough to live the comfortable life you want to live. um And that level is different for everybody.
John Saunders: you i
johngrimsmo: i don't know.
John Saunders: If I could add in as your friend or someone who's gotten to know you the last 10 years, like you're not driven by like money in terms of like just greed of consumption of personal material stuff.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: You're, you're a wonderfully successful business. You've ever drive a nice car. You have a nice house. Your kids are, know, awesome family.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Mm
John Saunders: So it's also like, okay, Maslow's hierarchy is kind of like, but I hear you.
johngrimsmo: hmm.
John Saunders: It's also.
johngrimsmo: But I was only able to do those things, the house, the car in the past five, six years.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um The 10 years before that, wasn't able to do any of those things.
John Saunders: Same here though, John, from ah for from the manufacturing business, absolutely, for sure.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: um when i've is i've heard I heard this from mentors earlier on, and I very much feel it now to where like I feel less inclined to answer these questions as I grow older, which is inverse, because it's like the more we go through life, the more maybe wisdom or experiences we have to share.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: So i I find myself trying to find what's something I could say that maybe somebody hasn't heard before or is a different perspective.
johngrimsmo: That's funny.
John Saunders: um You know, first certainly if you go take like a basic investing class, you'll quickly learn that companies like Procter and Gamble who make Crest toothpaste and, in you know, laundry detergent, they may pay a high dividend.
John Saunders: Whereas a tech company that started up in AI, never pays a dividend. And the answer, which I certainly didn't infer, right someone had to teach me this, is that it's because Procter & Gamble doesn't have anything to do with um they they can't They can't spend a billion or whatever, $10 billion dollars a year in R&D. So their company profile on their stock is such that every year we pay our 2% dividend or 6% dividend because that money is better giving it back to the shareholders than it is for us to try to reinvent and create a new toothpaste.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: like AI companies, tech companies, that's not appropriate for them to return money to the shareholders because every single dime goes into server farms and hiring talent and growth and advertising. They're high growth companies. So, um you know, us running very small, you know, micro manufacturing companies is different, except it's not. Like in the beginning, every dollar goes back in. It wouldn't be appropriate to try to think about, oh, I need to pay myself, not as a labor employee, but as a business owner.
John Saunders: oh But I think any small business, you want to hit that point where it does feel like you're, you know, does you do you own your business or does it own you?
johngrimsmo: Exactly. Yep.
John Saunders: um And you and I have talked about this on on the podcast. We talked about offline. i know you've gotten some examples from some mentors of yours. And I've decided to make like kind of a target metric um that I strive to hit. But the good news is doesn't matter if I don't hit it.
John Saunders: um And the reason I do that is... it actually solves kind of an inverse problem if if we're fortunate enough to have a quarter or a period where i can hit that target then it means without any personal guilt or or worry i can then reinvest every other dollar into discretionary stuff at saunders and that feels great like i don't care if we now buy new rego holders or a new wooden tables because If I paid myself X amount of dollars, I've done my job, um but which probably segues into the last sort of nugget around that, which is this is more complicated when you have many partners or even a single partner because capital calls and distributions aren't made individually.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: They're made amongst a group of people and money does, you know, we talked about this a lot with Dylan in StrikeMark and all that money does funny things.
johngrimsmo: who
John Saunders: um
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: It's just more, if I want to pay myself $500 off, you got to pay every partner
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John Saunders: that amount Do you really want to do that?
johngrimsmo: yeah Yep. Yep. Yeah. And Eric and I have definitely gone through that over the years. Um, and even if one person needs to take out something like down payment for a house or something like that, like, I'm just, I'm just going to do this.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And then the other people have to get owed that as well, either get paid out now or get paid out soon. But yeah.
John Saunders: Yep, right.
johngrimsmo: So like the other point I'll add is in the first few years of business, I mean, we had one kid and my wife went back to work part-time to support me and Eric and the business. Um,
johngrimsmo: do what we do. And it was, it wasn't until probably three or four years in that we could actually pay rent with the company. And that, that was like the first, you know, we didn't make a paycheck. We couldn't even pay rent.
johngrimsmo: We just like bought materials and tools and things like that.
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: And then once we could pay rent and she could stop working, we had our second kid, we had life. And then, uh, then the business could like, you know, pay our $800 and food. and and food and then And then it slowly, slowly, slowly grew from there. But it still even took a couple of years after that to pay ourselves like a fixed salary.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Yeah. You didn't though, maybe this is one of the bigger differences in our journeys. You never did all the sides work and hustle stuff. You never did the job shop work or other side business.
johngrimsmo: Correct.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure like that.
johngrimsmo: Yes. okay
John Saunders: I was always going to do that. It's just in my profile to mitigate risk. And like, I don't just was, but I don't necessarily think it made me better.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John Saunders: It reduced the risk profile, brought in cash, blah, blah, blah. But like, it didn't, I don't have an answer on like, when you diversification is a lack of conviction. Like if you are dead set on this business around this product based thing, it's like, i I also respect the all in on it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, it it might take your eye off the ball if you do too many things, especially that are not in your direct you know purview. But if I remember right, in your case, and I'd have to listen to Dylan's podcast to get the real thing, but...
johngrimsmo: at the time when you were doing job shoppy work at, in grandpa's garage, um did you have this, you know, Saunders machine works vision in mind?
John Saunders: on the
johngrimsmo: I'm going to make modular fixture plate. I'm going to do all that.
John Saunders: No, not even the, we we were buying and using fixture plates since the tag days.
johngrimsmo: like So you didn't have like the, the focus.
John Saunders: So that was like, there's a very wholesome desire for that.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John Saunders: um But no, I never like sat down and thought, ooh, business plan, opportunity,
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: focus it just kind of was like, yeah.
johngrimsmo: You just knew you wanted to machine things. you Yeah, exactly.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So it worked.
John Saunders: Yeah. Okay, decent segue to the other question. And all credit to Dylan. I guess I didn't really think about whether this is an uncool thing to do. This is actually technically a question from his Patreon guy.
John Saunders: So Dylan, I apologize if this is uncool. But Nick asked, was there a point in your journey where you came close to clearing the towel? And if I get a second question, can you give me some pros and cons about bootstrapping?
John Saunders: Bootstrapping.
johngrimsmo: You want to start this one?
John Saunders: Sure.
John Saunders: Never remotely came close to throwing in the towel. Like not even thing. Like I just, don't know, it sounds silly, but like I was putting this hurt to camera parts machine part. Like I love that.
John Saunders: um And being risk adverse, I never was going put myself in a situation where that was going to happen. I think there have been other struggles that...
John Saunders: It's awkward because it's like, I don't want to hide them and act all tough and look like I'm not affected by them. but there have been struggles along the way that are give you pause. I think anybody, any small business owner would be lying if they didn't say, man, ah that I don't want to deal with this today or why am I doing this?
johngrimsmo: Definitely. A
John Saunders: um And I think you and I've talked about it on the podcast. I mean, there are there are small businesses that probably take home less money than that person could go earn.
johngrimsmo: hundred percent.
John Saunders: And so you got to ask yourself, is it, is it what I want to do? Blah, blah, blah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: In terms bootstrapping, again, what can I tell you that people haven't already heard? um The phrase I wrote down that's in my little like things to revisit periodically list is bootstrapping isn't okay if you have the money, but you're not spending it and the task isn't getting done, period.
John Saunders: And so that's, I guess, the excuse as to why some things we still bootstrap because maybe they're too expensive or maybe we we bootstrap because the task is getting done, just not as well as it may need to.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: But it's, you know, the example might be Area 419. I mean, they never bootstrapped. They started that company. Well, they ran that shop out of a garage in a pretty but bonkers fashion for a while.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John Saunders: But like they quickly then were like, hey, we're buying equipment. We're hiring people. We're, you know, package. Like they did it. So much better in some respects. And I give them a ton of credit for
johngrimsmo: Which in one way um gained them a lot of speed a lot quicker than somebody who bootstraps. um And I mean, we never had money to throw around ah
John Saunders: that. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: to solve problems like we've been we've been broke.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um So we do it ourselves for many, many years.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And even still, I still have that mentality. We still don't have tons of money to like throw at problems. So we're like, ah we're going to fix the current instead of spending thousands and thousands to get current to come here and do that.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Okay. Was that the right call? i don't know. We got it done. um Yeah, exactly.
John Saunders: Yeah, you did.
johngrimsmo: So it's, you know, we often call it the make-buy relationship. Like,
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: and Oh, there's this thing, that this problem that I want to solve. Can you buy the solution? well Well, yeah, but I could make it too. Cause I'm a machinist and like, okay, but how many hours is that going to take out of your life to do that thing that you could just throw money at and that money would be gone and you'd never think about it ever again. And you'd have your solution on your doorstep.
johngrimsmo: Um,
John Saunders: Really what you're saying is kind of the heart of being a value investor, which is like, I'll spend umll spend big bucks on something when it's a good value.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John Saunders: um But in the case of something that I can do myself in two or three days, and it would have cost say $13,000, I'm making this up, but you know to fly tech and all that.
johngrimsmo: There
John Saunders: It's like, it's not a good value. So there's weird, like I'm in a position in life, not to brag here, where like I can pay $3 $4 for a soda at a restaurant, Almost every time I refuse out of principle of like, that's not a good value. $4 for a pop is ridiculous to me.
John Saunders: So I bootstrap my beverage consumption, I guess.
johngrimsmo: you go. but I just drink water, so I'm cheap. I'm a cheap date.
John Saunders: Perfect.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Did you ever come? Sorry, go ahead.
johngrimsmo: What were you going
John Saunders: Was there ever a point in your journey where you came close throwing in the towel?
johngrimsmo: say? wouldn't say throw in the towel, but it's definitely occurred to me either by choice or by force.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Um, there's definitely been a lot of lows in the past 15 years of our company where it just, everything's just beating you down and you're, you feel like you're already buried.
johngrimsmo: Um, Usually time fixes those wounds or doing a silly fun side project kind of reinvigorates the, I do like what I do and I do feel like we're onto something and, you know, and you get good emails from customers and like, we're, we're doing a good thing here.
John Saunders: yeah
johngrimsmo: um Obviously that's a good thing has to be profitable enough to be self-sustainable. And we've definitely had ebbs and flows of that ratio throughout the years. um But like, if I really, you know, sat down and said,
johngrimsmo: would I throw in the towel? Like I never really put much effort into what would I do otherwise? You know, I wouldn't go out and get a job. I like if i had to, sure, but yeah, it you know, this is what I do.
John Saunders: yeah It'd be a stopgap at best. Great.
johngrimsmo: um
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And there is, you know, a potential future where what I do is not um sustainable. like if this business didn't make money, you know, no matter how much I loved it, it's, it just wouldn't work.
John Saunders: What do you mean? Oh, yeah. Sure. What's it mean?
johngrimsmo: Like, and a lot of businesses are just that, you know, either it's just not a good idea or it's not run properly or it's, or your heart's not in it.
John Saunders: I don't know. Yeah, yeah
johngrimsmo: Um, or it's just too expensive. And, but yeah, no, I don't think I'd really, this, I don't this is what I do.
John Saunders: that's a fair point.
johngrimsmo: You
John Saunders: I remember, and this has been so long ago, and I think its when we were really getting to other a lot better. I remember how hard you you took the RASC, was it the RASC presale? Yeah.
John Saunders: I give you a lot of credit for pull how you pulled through on that, but I remember that was like, it was hard.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, that was though super tough. I mean, the the short version of that is we opened a pre-order, we took in two or three hundred orders and the money with that, 100% down payment, all the customers were legendary.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um That's a lot of money to be sitting on for a young company. And then we bought some tools and equipment and machines, got the Mori, And then took us a very very, very, very, very long time to fulfill all of those orders.
johngrimsmo: And even PayPal was getting pretty angry with that.
John Saunders: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: ah They locked our account. They prevented us from making more revenue. They did yadda yada, yada, yada. That was a tough time for us, 2016, 2015. But we did pull through it and we filled every single order and we made everybody whole and then some, and then we'll moved on from there.
John Saunders: Yeah. I'm sorry. i didn't, I guess I don't need, didn't even bring that up. Like dredge the past.
johngrimsmo: it's fine it's like 10 years ago yeah it's part of the story right and it's like forges you into who you are today um and same with the bootstrapping thing like solving a problem yourself can teach you a lot of lessons um it can teach you the skill of making a thing it can teach you how to solve problems it can teach you how to fix a thing and you know fix a machine instead of just throwing money at every problem and having no no skills from it however
John Saunders: Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
John Saunders: Right.
johngrimsmo: ah say in the case of like a $300 item that is you readily off the shelf, the Rego fix holder or something like that. and you're like, but I can make it myself.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Like, dude, that spend the money and move on.
John Saunders: Yeah. Totally.
johngrimsmo: Actually, and Angelo said something to me today that he's telling his guys.
John Saunders: Totally.
johngrimsmo: He said, time is irreplaceable. Don't waste it.
John Saunders: Yeah. You can always earn like one of the things I'll sometimes say if I'm having a tougher day is just like, okay, just work longer. Like in life, like, ah like what?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, the chatoo be
John Saunders: Like, um okay, great. Yeah.
John Saunders: Okay. Random change of topics. What do you use for AI?
John Saunders: That's it.
johngrimsmo: yeah I don't think I've really tried much else seriously.
John Saunders: Okay. Yep.
johngrimsmo: du Yeah, I've been on the paid version for a bit.
John Saunders: That's fair. The honest answer is just ChatGPT. I did just get access to the paid version. But... Okay. Yeah, which is...
John Saunders: I guess I don't, like, i mean, like, compared them or AB'd them, but, like, it's it's great. It's just insane.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And now that they have all the projects and like sub projects and things like that, I've, I've got all kinds of different ones and it's great.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: I love how like wrong I am. Like I'll be like, there's no way I could understand this. And you ask it and you're like, oh my God, it's referencing things.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: i even asked, to the I've also been using it for metallurgy. And i was like asking it to compare 1144 stress proof versus 4040 free hard.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: And not only did it give me a great comparison, it then built a chart. And then I said, well, which one's more expensive? And it's like, based on what I could learn from McMaster and Auro, it looks like X is about X more. i'm like, you got to kidding me.
John Saunders: This is just insane.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, in in that context, I view it as literally having a conversation with someone who knows most things. um It's not always right, and it's not always true.
John Saunders: Right. And you don't know when it's not right.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. And that is, I mean, you and I have, i was thinking about this the other day, you and I have like 30 years of experience researching interesting things before AI, you know?
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So we have a ah handle on how our BS meter and how to like properly so fact check sources and things like that.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: theres
johngrimsmo: And then our counter argument is like, you know, kids, new new people starting this, trusting everything it says is like dangerous. You and I know that, but not everybody does.
John Saunders: On the flip side, an argument that I haven't heard as much because people do talk about hallucination as so being systemically problematic. Okay, I hear you, but like, guess what?
John Saunders: Been plenty of trade shows where somebody has basically live purposefully or inadvertently fibbed about a spec or capability.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: So it's like, man, it's not like that doesn't exist in the real world.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: You know, hallucinations or or inaccuracies.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, and what I'm really starting to like more about it than Google for a search, a random search, is you can ask it a paragraph of a question.
John Saunders: Thank you.
johngrimsmo: And it will answer you. Whereas Google, it's it's pulling up websites that might have the keywords that you're looking for. It's like, just give me a black or white answer.
johngrimsmo: Like, just tell me. And even if it's wrong, I'd rather just explain it to me like I'm five, you know?
John Saunders: That's what was saying to a buddy the other day. i was like, it's been an interesting sort of semi-conscious behavior pattern because you know you and I are kind of set in our ways. We've been using the internet for two over 20 years and we have our routines and our resources.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: And so, you know, even I gave Dylan a hard time. like, Dylan, I don't like you because you make me feel old. Um, and he's not even the youngest guy in the like in instant machining community, but like he, so for, like he was saying on, on his podcast,
John Saunders: It auto transcribes it into a text document. He then can read that text document. And let's say in the middle of the podcast, I said the phrase, I really liked to read merry-go-rounds. And I emailed him after the podcast. i was like, hey Dylan, I wish I hadn't said that.
John Saunders: All he has to do is go to that text, control F, search for merry-go-round, select that sentence, hit delete, and it updates the audio.
johngrimsmo: No. What?
John Saunders: So you and I are officially old.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: oh And it's just like, I don't know what I don't know. so on that note, I use HatchiBT. I'm using it more and more as like just my go-to choice. um I've heard good things about perplexity. So I want to check that out.
John Saunders: I've also been as kind of one of those other things you learn, skills you learn. I've been much better in the last year about just putting stuff on my to-do list and not worrying about it. Like it's okay. Like ignoring the FOMO, like maybe I'm not using the latest and greatest or missing out on stuff.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: Cause it's just like, yeah.
johngrimsmo: Totally. I'm okay with that too.
John Saunders: Yeah. The rest of my day, got to make a part on the Tormach. I got to make a part on the horizontal, on the VF2 and then hang with my kids. Like I'm not gonna, if I'm perplexed, season's on the low, lower on list.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John Saunders: That being said, i enjoy keeping a toe in the water. Is that the phrase? Like I don't want to just be left in the dust.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Like how we use chat GPT now, if we ignored the whole AI thing, I don't know, I feel like I'm better for the experience.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Massively.
John Saunders: had the chance to visit Mr. Adam Booth. We were down in, yeah, we went down to the Gulf, or not Gulf Shores, pen Panhandle for a quick beach vacation with the kids.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I saw your little pictures, yeah.
John Saunders: And we were pretty close to Pensacola. And I was like, hey, you want to stop by He's like, love to see you. And um got to see his shop. He had a beautiful surface plate. We were showing the kids surface gauges. Actually, he had the Gorilla Fab stand.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, i saw, okay. What you think?
John Saunders: So that was, it's way bigger than I thought.
johngrimsmo: good It is big.
John Saunders: In a mostly good way.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: The build quality is definitely there. The like lockup and release is phenomenal. It's super stable. Yeah, all in all, i didn't i I was there to visit him for half an hour, so it wasn't I didn't get the chance to like interrogate the product.
johngrimsmo: Of course. Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: Not that i'd even qualified to, frankly, but it is markedly different than our Herman Schmidt, which is palm-sized.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John Saunders: you know I don't think anybody would argue that Hermann Schmitt isn't top of the line quality, but it's also, I like the Gorilla approach with the stability of it felt like in the knob. I'll show you on one. How do you like it?
johngrimsmo: Exactly that. it It is large and in charge. um I think if he made a mini, he would crush pretty hard, but um it's just big, it's stable, it's great.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's um being on three feet, I've actually tipped it sometimes because it's a tripod, so it can it doesn't go far, but it um you know it'll walk off the three feet just a little bit.
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: Otherwise, it's great. i love it. sort I find my guys don't tend to use it as much as I thought they would. they they We have a height gauge. on the surface plate that just gets used more.
johngrimsmo: I'm like, come on, like use the cool one.
John Saunders: That's interesting. Yeah, right?
johngrimsmo: and
John Saunders: That is interesting.
johngrimsmo: That's habit. That's what they've been using for years, um, for just basic layout stuff.
John Saunders: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And, uh, yeah, i don't know if they're scared to use the big fancy one. That's that's John's toy or something. I don't know, but, um, yeah, it's interesting.
John Saunders: Yeah, that is interesting. Otherwise, I'm, I'll save this for next week, but I want to talk about my summer. It's not it's not a summer to-do list, but it's, but it had the feelings of that, yeah, of all the stuff that I'm not getting to.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep,
John Saunders: Not a bad way, but just like, okay, let's let's think through realistically, okay, it's end of June now, what do what do you want to get done?
johngrimsmo: yep.
John Saunders: And, you know, it goes very much back to whatever we were talking about earlier in this podcast, where it's like, It's, oh, bootstrapping. Like, it's it's it's kind of like, okay, if you're not getting it done, it's not okay if you had the time you're not getting it done, or you just have to be honest with yourself, like, this is why I'm not getting it done.
johngrimsmo: yeah yeah
John Saunders: Am I picking up a new fun site project because I just don't want to do the tasks I told myself I would? That's the kind of discipline that try to self-impose.
johngrimsmo: Right, which is not necessarily a bad thing always, as long as you're getting done the things you need to get done.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: Yeah. The fun they I've been doing is... um print 3D printing a ton of Johnny five covers that go around his metal exoskeleton and then
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John Saunders: Um, I, I found with that project, it didn't, it wasn't always great to print stuff when you knew you weren't to need it for six months. Cause just, you just, don't know, maybe you get lost.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: It just didn't work like you. There's some flow you have to have to it and it's better to have stuff kind of just in time.
johngrimsmo: Oh,
John Saunders: And so now I'm printing what I need and then I'm Bondoing. I really don't want to bondo a ton cause it's so much more work. Even if you don't think it is, it just is. But I bonded a bunch of stuff that had mediocre print quality that I did, didn't want to throw out and reprint.
John Saunders: Now I'm being a little bit more diligent to say, i don't care if it's an 18 hour print, if it's done then in good condition, but then masking and painting. So seeing it paint and come to life is really fun um to do.
johngrimsmo: ah cool.
John Saunders: So that's, that's been fun. And a big thank you to you. I don't know if anybody would know this or we shared it, but there's a linear actuator that I need and I couldn't get it because the stupid tariffs thing, they wouldn't ship to U S anymore.
John Saunders: And Grimso did me a solid and, and made it happen. I'll leave it at that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, so I'm not sure if it has shipped yet, but it's in the my shipping guy's hands.
John Saunders: Yeah, I got tracking, so thank you very much.
johngrimsmo: Okay, so it's been shipped. Perfect.
John Saunders: I appreciate that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I left it on our little shipping table downstairs with a sticky note with your address on it, and I just said, ship this to Saunders, and it's done. I didn't even get a confirmation.
John Saunders: Great. That's the way to do it.
johngrimsmo: I'm like, I think it's somewhere.
John Saunders: It threw me at first because I got a Grimsville and have shipping order. I'm like, what? what did i Did I do something last night?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John Saunders: i didn't remember.
johngrimsmo: Hey, I'll take it.
John Saunders: um No, so thank you.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, absolutely.
John Saunders: a Yeah. What's going on today or this week?
johngrimsmo: um I'm testing, i might have mentioned to you couple weeks ago, the way we grind our Rask and Fjallblades on the Speedio is along the x-axis.
johngrimsmo: I want to rotate the fixture 90 degrees along the y-axis, which ended up requiring a lot of changes.
John Saunders: Oh, yeah.
johngrimsmo: It sounds easy, but it was actually a lot.
John Saunders: no
johngrimsmo: And remember my um ah chat GPT generated Python script to generate code grinding code it's fantastic it works great i had to add features to it so again using chat gpt to be like without screwing up what works i need you to add these features so i like on my desktop i copied and pasted you know working backup code so that anything new comes in i can side by side them in visual studio and i can see oh you changed this you oh don't do that um so i add
John Saunders: Yes.
John Saunders: really cool.
John Saunders: Yeah.
John Saunders: That's a great feature that I think people don't know about. Can you explain the Visual Studio Compare?
johngrimsmo: Oh yeah, um compare and edit for two different files. um You go into the Explorer and you click on one and you right or shift click the second one or whatever and right click and go compare. Put some two side by side as a new like third file and then it automatically highlights any differences.
johngrimsmo: And it's it's fantastic. And if there's like a million differences, it really struggles and lags. But if there's, you know, 50 or less, it just highlights them. And you're like, yes. So when doing post edits, it's the greatest.
johngrimsmo: um In this example, it's awesome. And so I had it. um I worked with chat GPT to add um a feature. Am I shifting? Am I doing backlash competition in X or in Y?
johngrimsmo: And it works great. So the way I'm
John Saunders: Good.
johngrimsmo: yeah, the way I'm chop grinding where I go up, down, up, down, up, down, it also goes away from the cut five thou and then towards the cut five thou to eliminate any backlash.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: We're always coming into the cut.
John Saunders: Into the kite. I'm with you.
johngrimsmo: Um, but that didn't like that was hard coded to do it and why, and now I need it next or the other way around.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: So I had to add that feature.
John Saunders: Can I make a humble insight suggestion?
johngrimsmo: Or it's great. Yep.
John Saunders: I remember once, I believe it was the Hermley guy saying that people have blown ah fried ball screws. If you don't move the axis enough, it starves over.
johngrimsmo: a
John Saunders: So they would have people that would take a Hermley and they would surface a 20,000 feature for like 30 minutes. Some kind of crazy scenario.
johngrimsmo: yeah yeah i know what you mean yeah Kern told me that too um if you're doing if you're doing micro milling in the tiniest little zone um and they said even if you just move away three inches and come back three inches you're like adding fresh oil to that area of the ball screw um that's a good question
John Saunders: ah You would starve the ball screw oil.
John Saunders: Okay. Maybe I heard from but don't know.
johngrimsmo: No, that's probably fine. oh Yeah, it's a good thing to think about, though, because I didn't think about that. But
John Saunders: Have you run one yet?
johngrimsmo: like I did just for the podcast, I did a test cut. And I had my I have some modifiers in the code to be like, so I can type in 2000 and it'll grind 2000 away.
John Saunders: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Or 2000 closer and I had that backwards. So I did plus 2000 ground 2000 more.
John Saunders: Ah.
johngrimsmo: And I'm like, Okay, now I know.
John Saunders: Linda's not gonna be happy.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. It was fine. um I did it on a scrap blade that was already undersized to begin with, so it's fine but
John Saunders: Is that what led to the blade you put up on Instagram that looks like it got guillotine?
johngrimsmo: fine. The Norseman? Yeah, the cracked in half Norseman. No, that's a Magna Cut blade and we the guys acid etched it and apparently we learned the hard way. You can't acid etch the Magna Cut steel because it eats weirdly.
johngrimsmo: It just looks like
John Saunders: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: you know, like hot rolled steel.
John Saunders: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It looks like that when when you etch it.
John Saunders: Like just scale.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Like scale, like disgusting.
John Saunders: Oh, weird.
johngrimsmo: Anyway, i don't I don't, know if that's why broke, but sometimes they warp a little bit. So Eric will put them in the arbor press and, um, you know, just massage them straight.
John Saunders: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: So the blade is centered and it snapped and that's, it's happened sometimes, but very, very rarely.
John Saunders: Noken.
johngrimsmo: And so now we just have this stubby blade. He put it back in the knife and he's like, So that was like a year ago, but I saw it on the guy's desk and I was like, this is funny.
John Saunders: It's good.
John Saunders: Oh, it was funny.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John Saunders: OK. Got it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah Yeah, man.
John Saunders: Cool.
John Saunders: you next week.
johngrimsmo: Same bad time, same bad place.
John Saunders: Sounds good. I'll see
johngrimsmo: All right. See you, man. Bye. Bye.
John Saunders: OK.
