Transcript
John: Good morning. Welcome to the business of machine episode 430. My name is John Saunders.
johngrimsmo: And my name is John Grimsmo.
John: And John and I just talk each week to figure us through, uh, our lives, which, you know, you, there's a interesting thing about, like, do you worry and care about what people think about you? And anybody will say you like, don't worry about it. Like really.
John: But the reality is that like,
John: there's some role or reason as to why you think about like, whether it's you personally or as a boss, as a friend, as lead, whatever, as a product based company.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: And um we, yeah I think John and I have tried to walk the balance of being candid and raw about all the, stages of excitement and then frustration.
John: You go through running a small business without also being like some pity party, like pity party, like complain fest.
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep.
John: Um, but the reality is, um, even this past week for me, like I've had some really awesome progress, exciting things, takeaways. And I've some moments too, where I'm just there sometimes where it'd be nice to just, I don't know, whatever.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: don't want to say, know what mean?
johngrimsmo: A lot of different things. You know, whether it's go cry in the corner or go break something or, you know.
John: Sure. Yeah.
John: Yeah, that's all good. Life in the big picture, life is great.
johngrimsmo: No, I get it. And that's the that's the thing with running a business is the highs are incredible and the lows are decimating.
John: Yes. Right. Isn't that and that's so fascinating?
johngrimsmo: And it it ebbs and flows. And it's like, most people don't do this.
John: Well, and like if I have a tough moment, pick a day on a Tuesday, and then I'm going to sit down with a buddy, you know, we're grabbing lunch or something on on Friday. Like I don't even have the ability to replicate, nor do i want and want to.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: So it's like the reality is you just got to just keep on tracking. It's okay.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John: Like don't worry about yeah
johngrimsmo: like If you talk to him on the Tuesday when you're having a bad day, maybe it'll come up, maybe it'll talk about it. But once you're over that bad day, it's like, oh, yeah, I guess Tuesday was kind of hard. And, you know, but I'm fine now.
John: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I mean, that that was me. Like, Monday was a tough day. Tuesday was amazing. Today is a tough, tough day. and
John: Yeah. Yeah. And then it's the little things like this is, this is not worth, it's a choice as whether you want to let that yourself get worked out about this stuff. And I mean that really, like I have to use some effort, but we've done cool pickups now for years, every, um, you waste coolant,
johngrimsmo: What pickup?
johngrimsmo: Okay. Yeah.
John: from a company called Safety Clean. We have to do it within a year to keep our certifications not required to be recertified, I guess.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
johngrimsmo: Hmm.
John: So we do it about every 11 months and they've always been about 500 bucks. Now we had probably had a little bit more coolant to pick up this time. I didn't think it was that much more. And the guy hands me the bill and it's two grand. And I'm like, wait, what?
John: um And you know the reality is I should take a look at it to make sure something's not wrong, but it's also... um I don't know whether it's just more expensive or they changed their rates or we had more combination all of them, but um yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, you don't know yet. Yeah.
John: Anyway.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, those surprises are never fun.
John: So, well, they're not, and there is a funny to like sort of hit the pause button on like business talk here. Like, like, I don't know. Like,
John: take something extravagant for yourself or for your spouse or for your kids. Like, don't spend $2,000 buying what, you know, electronics or watches or jewelry, like on myself or spouse, et cetera.
johngrimsmo: no
John: Like, it's just like, don't know. It's like, would be unbelievably unusual to be like, hey, let's go jewelry shopping and spend $1,000 on it.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Like, no. And then here it's just like, oh yeah, that invoice is $1,500 more than thought.
johngrimsmo: yeah yeah love me Yeah, that wouldn't fly at home.
John: Why does nobody... Why does nobody talk about like how different that is? And that makes sense.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, the business perspective where you're cutting $10,000 checks, you know, way too often. Whereas at home, you're like, it's $200.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I think now I'm gonna wait.
John: um Yeah. Kind of funny, right? How are you doing?
johngrimsmo: um Yesterday was amazing. I went to see MTS, the Canadian version of IMTS, which is probably one-tenth of the size, but still super fun and super packed.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And kind of going back to what you were saying before with, um you know, on one hand, you don't really care what people think about you. But on the other hand, i i take two steps into the building and I see somebody I know.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And then I take three steps over and I see somebody else I know. And then, you know, and then other people are coming up to me and it was a great day. So two of the guys from work came. And um we just had an amazing day walking around. I got to meet, do you know Donnie, the lathe machinist from, he used to be at Titans, but now he's at a different shop.
johngrimsmo: And he's like their Swiss machinist guy.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: I'm sure you've seen little clips.
John: okay
johngrimsmo: He's very boisterous personality. um Super great guy. So I've seen a lot of his videos and he's like an expert lathe machinist. i'm I'm sure he's touched a mill before too, but he's like the lathe guy.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Anyway, so he he was there um from the US s with, ah think the company Dynamic or something. They sell citizens and some other stuff. And i didn't I didn't bring it, but do remember when we were kids, those little skateboards, the little tech decks or whatever that everybody was playing with with their fingers?
John: Okay.
John: ah The finger, the finger boards.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John: Absolutely.
johngrimsmo: So he designed one in metal and he machined it on a Swiss lathe. And so he is like 3D milling.
John: No kidding. you mean Sorry, milled it on a mill.
johngrimsmo: He milled it, like three d milled the whole thing basically on a Citizen lathe, like a L32.
John: Thank you. Yeah. Yes.
John: Uh-huh.
johngrimsmo: And such a great demo because it's just like this weird shaped oblong, you know, skateboard coming out of it. And he had, he was making them out of aluminum, but he had one brass one and he's like, John, you need this.
John: Love it.
johngrimsmo: Like, yeah. I want you to have the one brass one that I'm in. I'm like, sweet. This is just really cool.
John: That's awesome.
johngrimsmo: I've got on my desk at home now.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's just, it's like a great demo. You know, there's like dumb demos and then there's, this a silly demo. It's like silly, but it's, it's a wonderful, um you know, and hearing him talk about, he's like a lathe like this might be slower to make a part like this, like a crazy mill part, but he's like, I guarantee I can make more in a day than you can on your mill.
John: Oh
johngrimsmo: and And he's now in the, don't know if he's in apps or sales or something like that, but he's like convincing people. He's like, I can make that faster on a Swiss lathe you can on some five axis cell.
johngrimsmo: And not every part obviously fits, but it's it's cool. It was really cool. He's a great guy to talk to. He's super smart with programming and macros and pushing a machine to the limits. And it was just great.
John: That's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And then we just walked around the rest of the show, um got to see one of the guys from Hacksmith. They brought one of their big power armor suits um from ah Fallout.
John: Nice.
johngrimsmo: And it's like this 10 foot tall armor suit that somebody could actually stand inside. but And they 3D printed a Michet Toyo caliper that was about two feet long that he's holding me in one hand. And then they printed another one that was about 10 feet long in like 12 sections on a bamboo.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Oh, seriously on a band?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Wow.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, all in sections glued together, but it's like full color.
John: Crazy.
johngrimsmo: It looks exactly like the black and yellow Mitutoyo caliper. And it was just really cool. And I had it at the Mitutoyo booth. um
John: Oh, that's awesome.
johngrimsmo: So it was super cool.
johngrimsmo: Let's see what else. Yeah, I saw a lot of great microscope technology. I was looking for white light interferometers. um There weren't any, but I did get to talk to the Kians guys. um I know one of the guys that works there.
John: Risky move, John.
johngrimsmo: I know, I know. i
John: Risky move.
johngrimsmo: I'm now again on their email marketing list, but but anyway, one of the guys is super local.
John: Yeah. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: He's been the shop a bunch of times. It was great to talk to him and touch base.
John: yeah
johngrimsmo: Turns out he lives like really close to me. So that's kind of cool.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um But they they had an optical microscope with ah it was really cool to see the different light settings. Like, you know how the the cheap little digital microscopes have the gooseneck LEDs on the side.
John: Yes.
johngrimsmo: just like with a little lock line type.
John: The lock line? Exactly.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. And they're okay. And then our, they're not okay.
John: No, they're not okay. They they suck.
johngrimsmo: that's ah And then our Zeiss has a ring light, which is quite great.
John: Yeah.
John: Okay. Yes.
johngrimsmo: And then one of these kids microscopes had a setting to go to confocal light, which literally uses a beam splitter and puts the light in line with, with your optical perspective.
johngrimsmo: And he was toggling back and forth and I'm like blowing my mind. I'm like, The definition and the shadows and the way it shows the scratches is 100% different when it's literally head on than I've ever seen before on my own part.
John: yes
johngrimsmo: Like i put my own knife under the microscope and i was like, holy cow, this is amazing.
John: Confocal? like
johngrimsmo: Yeah, let's call it.
John: Yeah, so it's like a telepronome. It makes complete sense because like shadows are the bane of microscopes existence. It's brutal.
johngrimsmo: exactly yep and our zeiss ring light the ring light on our zeiss has settings so you can like have all the ring on or you can have sections of it on which is cool because now you can aim where the light comes from but um fun fact in the process of building my white light interferometer i'm doing this confocal light source anyway so i will be able to use the microscope normally but with a direct light source and that'll be fun to see once i'm once i'm there
John: hu That's really...
John: Yeah, that's cool. That's really cool. um I had one on my notes because I think last week you were doing more on the 3D print work in the BeanSpitter, but like i'm I'm kind of like excited to follow this along.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah. So I've got another point on that, but let me wrap up the show first. Um, um, they had, was it? I think they were, they were zooming in, in the microscope up to 200 times, which are school only goes to 50 times.
johngrimsmo: So was really cool to be able to see the tool path of the logo engraving at that much zoom. Um, in very high quality. but You could literally see where the tool start and stopped um going around our logo and like count every flute cuspite all stuff.
John: Yeah, that's crazy.
johngrimsmo: It's just great. um What else do we see? We saw a lot of cool machines. um but One of the guys asked me is like, oh, so what's on your wish list for the next you know year trying to sell me stuff?
johngrimsmo: And like, honestly, I don't know. I'm kind of good right now. Like I want a lot of little stuff, but I don't, I don't have any big, big thing on my punch list at the moment. But obviously I, I hope for that to change at some point.
johngrimsmo: Um, I love needs based purchases where it's like, well, you know, new product that needs the thing. So let's make it happen. Um, but no, for right now we're, we're super good. Um, But it was, like I said, tough Monday. And then Tuesday was sort of just a pause on the world.
johngrimsmo: Go to the show, have an amazing time, learn a lot of new technologies, touch base with a lot of people, ask all kinds of questions, and then come back to the reality of life and deal with situations.
johngrimsmo: But I kind of needed that. Like I felt a million times better after that show. And it just happened to be this week. And I'm like, well, I'm not not going. Like it's it's an hour away and only every other year.
johngrimsmo: like, of course I'm going.
John: I, you know, you don't, you, you don't know you don't type of thing, but like, I'm actually, you should, sorry, this sounds weird. You should be grateful. It's awesome that it's so close to you. Like I am at this point, we have ah that turning production show and it used to be Columbus.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: Now it's in Cleveland. I forget it's even called.
johngrimsmo: What's the precision one that you guys have in Ohio? Is that the one?
John: Yeah. That's the one I'm thinking of.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: It's, it's, um, ah They call it that now. It used to be the high volume turning show, which is why it has more of that focus to it.
johngrimsmo: Really?
John: And of course, I'm like allergic to all that topic.
johngrimsmo: Okay. Yeah.
John: um But um ah you know I i and envy you that it's like, oh, yeah, hour away and go to like the Canadian IMTS.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: That's awesome.
johngrimsmo: And a lot of the vendors there are like my local Toronto based, like Elliot Matsura and all these guys.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: So it's, the Ranisha guys were there. was great.
John: Yeah, that's nice. did um did brother Was Brother there?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, but I didn't actually, i didn't walk into their booth.
John: is that a different show?
John: I was just going to ask if they they've been, they've clearly been moving or showing off this new 100 tool machine, which is...
johngrimsmo: You know I didn't even consider that when I was at the show.
John: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: I i wondered if they had a U500, which just would have been nice to like stand in front of and see. I've seen them at IMTS couple years. I don't know. But no, we were pretty busy. We didn't get to see everything at the show.
johngrimsmo: So yeah, the 100 tool thing. I was talking with a guy on Instagram who's ordered one with 100 tools and a bunch of other stuff. And i'm like, sweet.
John: yeah So, yeah I mean, for sure, yes. And like, it would be hypocritical of me to not... mean be a tip of the hat because like the more tools you can have and the less times you have to either set up a tool or put it a machine.
John: I completely agree. But, um, you know, everything in my world has priority wise has changed in the last six weeks, two months, because I've realized instead of this high tool count, single spindle scenarios, whether it's the horizontal or whether it was something like the Hermola, I've realized, no, no, no, you're much better off with more normal machines.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: Um, there are,
johngrimsmo: More spindles.
John: more spindles and more bounce production.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: RO, go ahead.
johngrimsmo: What's funny, i I was talking with ah the ah one of the Okuma dealers, like the Toronto-based Okuma dealer who knows you quite well. um
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: And they're like, yeah, i heard on the podcast that Saunders is selling his Okuma. Does he not like it anymore or what?
John: That's hilarious.
johngrimsmo: And it's like, no, he loves it. It's just amazing, except it's he's growing his business in a different direction where he wants you know more smaller spindle machines, robots, kind of things like that, as opposed to one big do-everything machine. And I totally get that. I respect that.
John: yeah Yeah, exactly.
johngrimsmo: and he's like, yeah, I get it.
John: It's been a great machine and there's nothing like it's still a great machine, but not, um, I,
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: I've been, um obviously, because we talked about it on the podcast, but like I'm, at the sake of stating the obvious, I'm thinking about this like probably an hour or two every day, and I have been for two months.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: So like it's not, because sometimes I'll get ideas and whims, and then you realize that was a dumb idea, whatever. This is not.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John: This is a good idea.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: To the point of like now I've started to look at all of the like schedule timing, capital planning, when do we want machines, um are you our UR robot just arrived at our integrator, they're starting to set it up.
John: um And so this is all very much real. And so I realized there's four machines that were actually not part of this, that are not part of pro forma Saunders.
John: There's four different CNC machines that are going and correct.
johngrimsmo: Meaning Okuma is one of them? Okay.
John: They're all listed for sale now.
johngrimsmo: Whoa.
John: I was just like, nope, like there's no, the, root the, it's kind of the, the only reason I wouldn't listen sales. I'm just lazy. Like, it's just like, it takes some work to get the, collect information, get the photos, documented videos all that.
johngrimsmo: Yeah,
John: They're all up on, they're all on our website under, um, if you go to the bottom of Saunders machine works equipment for sale, it's a, I was tempted to like bait people in by not telling you what they are, but that's kind of what not my style.
johngrimsmo: wow
John: So they are the Haas UMC 355 axis, a Haas ST20Y lathe, the Okuma MB4000 horizontal with pallet pool and big tool changer, and then our Tormach 1500 MX, which I'm actually kind of sad about selling, but the honest, true story is we're now going to end up in this scenario with an extra...
John: VF2 effectively. And the shop guys voted.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: They're like, we'd rather keep the VF2 as a prototype machine, which is what that Tormach was doing.
johngrimsmo: Sure.
John: um
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep.
John: So that's it.
johngrimsmo: and And it sounds like the future plan is to get a lot more simple three-axis machines. ah You will have no shortage of those at some point. Right.
John: Well, that's the the beauty of your kind of building off what your citizen slave buddy said. um We ran the time study stuff and the reality is one I'm saying brother, it'll that's what we're looking into. But we're trying to figure out where the terms end up. But um one brother, if it's actually set up correctly to run, you know, 20, 24 hours a day I thought we needed two.
John: One is actually fine for that, for two different product families.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: Then we'll need a separate one for aluminum. And then I think we would eventually replace our hobby fixture plate machine, which is a drill tap center right now. I think we would upgrade it to a new ah machine, but that's kind of just a one-for-one swap. So it's actually really only net adding probably two machines.
John: Yeah. yeah
johngrimsmo: With robot integration, so there's a bit quite a bit of cost in that, right?
John: There is, and the and the three axis quotes right now are more than I was expecting. And when you add in the integration of the robot, the ROI numbers are not as juicy as I'd hoped initially.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: um This is still happening, but just in the spirit of kind of sharing, I was like, oh man, um I was, you these are, the three accesses are a hundred thousand dollars, which was kind of like my, was my quick, like, just throw it in to do a back of the envelope math.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: um
johngrimsmo: yeah Yeah. I think our speedo was 150 US fully decked out ah three years ago.
John: Got it. Yeah. That's in the, I can't believe I'm sympathizing with the sales folks, but like, you know, how like you and I, especially four or five years ago, we we get so mad at trade shows when they would never give us a price. I understand that a lot more now because you can spend four grand on a conveyor and you can spend almost $40,000 on a chip conveyor.
johngrimsmo: It's complicated, I guess.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: And through spindle coolant is, you know, almost double digit percent of the machine tool price. And there are truly a lot of options.
johngrimsmo: Yep. Yep. and You want ah a simple touch setter or you want a laser touch setter? And that's a you know, almost 10 X price difference there.
John: Right.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: I get it. I get it. But I do like to ballpark people. What I actually like to do is I call it play the game when we're at a trade show. And I'm like, Grayson, how much do you think this machine costs?
John: Yeah. Right.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, don't know, $200,000? The guy's $600,000.
John: if right The, what was going to say on that? Um, don't know. Yeah. Um, I, I'm excited, which I'm excited, but I'm excited.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, good.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, I mean, on one hand, it's a good change things up, um reformatting the way your default brain, you know, um makes parts, which is like really fun.
John: Yeah. And like, there's so many, um, like maybe I'll do a video. I just, I'm hesitant because I do feel like I'm rambling, but like, there's so many benefits that I'm almost like the fixting benefits, the cam focus, not having certain patterning things, being able to QC on the fly, being able to have the robot go
johngrimsmo: hmm.
John: batch stuff out when it's done, being able to have the robot put it into, put it into a CMM or put it into an anti rust thing.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. yeah
John: Like, um, it is just like, I am so, and it's the will in there. Like we continue the problem with is the price, but like it's, you know, switching that up between part families.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: It's freaking awesome.
johngrimsmo: You need a bar video.
John: It's on the list. um
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Yeah. The tricky thing about a bar fed mill is it's going to be easier to do it on a machine that doesn't have a table that moves in X, Y, or Z.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John: And the only machine tools that I'm aware of that are three axis at least, is the are things like the Brother R series where they have a lazy Susan.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: And then there's ah there's some other versions like Smart X1 as well that has, you have XYZ in the head.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: Now actually somewhat coincidentally, I think a UMC style machine also has XYZ in the head. So that could work, but yeah. Yeah, don't need it now.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: we were were We were very focused on actionable plans and it's I'm willing to pay the penalty of buying saw cut material and sewer links for now versus just trying to load bars.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah. For context, our our buddy CJ has, what is it, a 450 and a 650? Something like that? The brother, ah the pallet-changing brother.
John: yeah
johngrimsmo: And he's put a fourth axis on both sides of the pallet or something. And he can load these 18-inch bars with a spindle gripper, where he picks up the bar, manually loads it into the fourth axis, and then is able to make it like a Willamette-type mill turn kind of part on a three-axis mill.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Well, four-axis mill. um And then just parts come out and then he loads the next bar and then parts come out and then he loads the next bar and then he loads another 50 bars and then whatever.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's it's brilliant, actually. It's like really, really smart.
John: No, it is totally brilliant. Um, it's also, going from that to an actual bar fed mill where you have some integration i think is a pretty big leap um cj's the kind of guy who wouldn't be able to do that as well um you know his his system is bueno yep um
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: Sorry, lost whatever. um Oh, i had to kind ask you a question asking for a friend.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Yeah.
John: um a couple of weeks ago, you'd mentioned using the gorilla indicator stand at an angle, like a lathe compound where you can kind of get like one 10th, if you will, sign like the trigonometry resolution.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: A friend couldn't, a friend didn't understand that. Could you explain that more?
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Basically where the the big rod is, the vertical one in line with the knob, that's one plane of movement.
John: Yep.
johngrimsmo: That's an axis or whatever. When you pull the knob, it rotates up, right?
John: And there's no control over that. if Those are fixed.
johngrimsmo: Yeah. Fixed points in space.
John: Yes, yes.
johngrimsmo: If you put your indicator 90 degrees or 89 degrees to that relationship, that's where the magic starts to happen.
John: Oh, it's that. Okay. It's that simple, I guess. I'm overthinking it.
johngrimsmo: you It's like weirdly sideways.
John: I see. So like, I think I'm a, whatever. I think of like construction equipment and an excavator or backhoe, like they're in the backhoe straight in front of you. It's every time you tip the back of the backhoe up, the bucket's moving down the same amount or whatever.
John: But if you tip the bucket almost 90 degrees, then it's not, it may not be moving much. That makes, of course, obvious sense. Thank you.
johngrimsmo: Because the pivot point from your back feet on the gorilla stand to the front knob is call it five inches.
John: Mm-hmm.
johngrimsmo: And that's your tilt but angle leverage, whatever it's called.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: When you rotate the indicator to 89 degrees perpendicular to that, ah now your distance from feet to indicator tip is like five thou.
John: Yes. I was just thinking, like, how would I set up the fusion? I do this. ah We actually just did this on a different scenario, but like I'll use math to avoid doing trig and I'll use fusion to avoid doing trig.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, totally.
johngrimsmo: 100%. It's so easy. I do it all the time too.
John: Right.
johngrimsmo: Just crack open a new document.
John: That would be this.
johngrimsmo: and
John: That would be the sketch. Yeah, okay, interesting.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: um And it doesn't matter then. Okay, so to use a clock, the feet are... the pivot point is, it excuse me, the the riser that adjusts the height is at six o'clock, your pads are at 12 o'clock, so you're north-south, but then you put the indicator at 930 to the left.
johngrimsmo: yeah Yep, yep.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: So it doesn't matter how far left to right that it is.
johngrimsmo: correct not really yeah but if you have the indicators facing in line with the plane of the the screw and the the head whatever and you extend it like really long so that your your fixed angular distance of the knob call that five inches pivot point if you extend the arm like 10 inches the other way now you've made the problem worse like you have
John: Yeah, exactly. Right, right. Okay.
John: Mm-hmm.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: which works for some parts, but if you want that crazy smooth, like I'm moving this five millions kind of thing, like it almost doesn't really matter because I've used it a couple times and I'm like, okay, now I can just move the knob smoothly or like it it is smooth by itself, but all it is, is a zeroing technique.
John: Yeah, I know. It's just nice.
johngrimsmo: Like it doesn't help your part be any flatter. Yeah.
John: And I was thinking about that daydreaming the other day and I was like, man, ah you could build a flexure that like feed like a differential screw that feeds a differential screw.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: And you could end up with like, now you're going to get into Renzetti level of like, there's going to be section forces of the thread angles and like burrs that cause inaccurate resolutions.
John: Is that the right term? But like, regardless, you can have a one in 10,000 pitch screw by stacking 200 TPI.
johngrimsmo: Mm-hmm.
John: hundred tpi
johngrimsmo: Well, have you seen the 3D printed, um I don't know what it's called. It's just like a single thing that has one screw on it and it has all these flexors that just reduce the movement down into like a millionth.
John: The end of time, like it cuts the cord type of thing.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John: Oh, you want to hear a real, like a real bummer. Have you seen the meme or art? i'm not It's not a meme. It's an artwork installation of the KUKA style industrial robotic arm that is sweeping up hydraulic oil and picking this and sweeping the...
johngrimsmo: No.
John: Oh, if you Google it, maybe we'll put a link in the description. So it's a KUKA arm that has a rubber scraper and it's sweeping the hydraulic oil back into the center trough that it needs to run the machine.
John: Because if it the idea that if it doesn't do that well enough, it'll starve itself.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: um and it's all fake. It's electrically driven. And I was like, I thought that was a really cool artwork idea of like, you know saving yourself um the thought being there's some somebody built a machine with the gear reduction things to where it'll take 10 000 years to cut its own electrical supply like it's the motor's turning it like 10 000 rpms but the output is one and takes one rotation in a thousand years so anyway yeah
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
johngrimsmo: ah
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep.
johngrimsmo: um One of the big wins I had on... on the weekend sometimes. So as you know, I've been working on the software side of the white light interferometer and with me and chat GPT and about 72 revisions of this code, I'm getting usable results from Cyrus's video, like the video results with all the fringes moving over the part because I haven't built my own machine yet.
John: um but
johngrimsmo: So I'm using his, um, And I finally got to the point I was so fed up with it because it it was it led all this noise and all these spikes that aren't actually there. And it's not like a good accurate representation of the part, like my final render.
johngrimsmo: um So I finally asked him, which I could have done two weeks ago, but I was like, can I can i see your code and compare it with my code and like blend the two in ChatGPT? And he's like, of course, here you go.
johngrimsmo: And literally within 30 minutes, I had like a near perfect result because I was doing it one way and he does it a different way, like calculation of the thing. And, and chat explained the differences to me and I didn't really get it, but it was like night and day difference. I'm like 98% like perfection on the rendering now, which is like good enough for now, but there's still some, some, um,
johngrimsmo: what's it called? The tuning, like fine tuning, denoising settings that you can do.
John: okay
johngrimsmo: Because as Cyrus said to me, he's like, since you're using light into a scratch, at the very bottom of that, like, you're gonna miss some pixels, you're gonna like, it's not gonna record the very, very bottom
John: Interesting.
johngrimsmo: of a tight scratch like perfectly so when you when you translate that to a camera and the software picks every single pixel and as bright as the dark as brighter as the dark and compares to the next one there's going to be a few pixels that are just weird and those are the noise so he said what
John: Okay, sure.
John: So you want to throw those out and it's kind of the idea, right?
johngrimsmo: and And what is the algorithm? Do you throw one pixel out? Do you average it with the nine around it? And he said the zygos and all that, they have all these complicated algorithms that smooth it like accurately without reducing. No, that's a real scratch. That's a real hole. Don't smooth that out.
johngrimsmo: So I'm kind of making that up right now, but um like huge difference. It was like, I got so excited after that.
John: That's cool.
johngrimsmo: I'm like oh my gosh, this is like two weeks of of pain and and stress, just the self-imposed, but now it works.
John: I give you credit, credit though, versus just like asking, Hey, will you just give me all your work? le you Like, that's awesome.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, because I don't want to be that guy. But um yeah, and when I when I eventually reached out and I was like, I'm this far.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, holy crap. Like, okay yeah, here you go.
John: So.
johngrimsmo: Around the corner.
John: I saw another one this week that I thought too funny. It was ah it was the ah header comment at the top of code. It was programming code, but it makes me think of post-process or stuff.
johngrimsmo: and good yeah.
John: And the description reads, um only two people know how this program actually works, Mark and God. Mark died. So right now it's the only the ah the big guy upstairs. um If you think you can actually fix it, feel free to try, but we do ask that you update the hours wasted counter ah below.
John: And it was at 250. And it's like, what a good way to like, just, cause you know, we all get, we all get bright eyed, bushy tailed and we're like, we can figure this out. And then you're just like, Oh, Oh, this is a black box.
johngrimsmo: yeah Okay. Speaking of black box, one of the guys that we met at the show um had this beautiful small booth with very polished things in it. And it's like micro finishing, whatever. and I'm like, sweet. I love polishing. I love surface finishes. Let's talk to this guy.
johngrimsmo: And I said, so what's your deal? Like, what's why, why do these look so good? And you know, you walk by the tumbler booths and there's like the knee joints that are all shiny and polished and There's electro polishing and there's D-Lite makes a system with it's kind of like a dry electro polishing and And so I said, i'm I'm very familiar with, you know, abrasive tumbling and hand polishing and even the D-Lite system. I understand fundamentally how it works.
johngrimsmo: And they kind of chuckle at the D-Lite because it's obviously they're one of their big competitors.
John: you
johngrimsmo: And he proceeds to explain the technology to me in the most vague, cagey way I've ever had.
John: oh
johngrimsmo: and it was actually impressive how,
John: wow
johngrimsmo: ah how he was ah avoiding like the real things.
John: Nothing burger, word salad.
johngrimsmo: And he said, we use, you know, it's all in a liquid bath and we use all these micro machines, not abrasive media. We use these micro machines to slowly abrade just the surfaces that you want.
johngrimsmo: And when you get to the surface roughness, you want all the cutting action stops, no matter how long you keep it in there, which is actually kind of cool. um So he's like, you can literally tell me the RA you want and I will get you an even surface of the whole thing, coarse, rough, fine, polished, shiny, and it will stop at that roughness and there'll be a feature-free surface.
johngrimsmo: And he said a lot of things that were actually really interesting because abrasive media kind of cuts the peaks and smudges the depths of a scratch.
John: It's
johngrimsmo: And I was like, okay, and some people don't care, it's fine. But if you really want that optically clean surface, um that's not the greatest thing. And whereas the D-Lite is a dry electro polishing.
johngrimsmo: So all these little um beads basically are electrified and they're touching the surface of the peaks and they're literally ion by ion, they're removing ions of steel from the peaks.
John: like the EDM polishing.
johngrimsmo: Literally. And it's a really fascinating technology. And then once it reaches the full surface, the cutting action slows, um but it will will still keep cutting as everything's touching.
John: Okay, sure.
johngrimsmo: um And it's a super cool technology. It's just like stupid expensive. And then I eventually asked the guy, who was like, are you, I don't, are you selling machines? Are you selling a service right now? And he goes, we only sell a service.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: We have five locations all around the world. Ship us your parts and we'll sell you the service of, we'll polish your parts. Yeah. And it's like $2,000 batch size. It's not cheap, but it was interesting.
John: I call complete complete complete BS because anyone who's that elusive elusive and won't actually sell the machines, they have a simple way of doing it, good for, or good on them.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John: But like, clearly this is actually not hard to do and you have some sort of a trade secret, which more power to you, but like, just cool your jets, bud.
johngrimsmo: 100%.
johngrimsmo: i'll find to present
johngrimsmo: Yep. And, you know, here we are just, just trying to nerd out and understand. And like, I know quite a bit about polishing and I just want to know what, what are we talking about here?
John: Yeah, right. Right.
johngrimsmo: Like it's ah it was, yeah, it was interesting.
John: Yeah, that'll that'll leak out eventually.
johngrimsmo: And he's like, other people have tried to, you know, recreate our results. And we've we've only had two people that we ever led to our facility and it was NASA or something. I don't know.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And like, whatever, it was funny, but we all kind of left like scratching our heads.
John: yeah
johngrimsmo: Like what just happened?
John: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, Sodic EDM company or even guys that are incredible, like, toolmakers that do spindle design, they'll show you everything because the reality is there's just no chance you're going to...
johngrimsmo: Yeah, ah good luck.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Exactly. And that's, that's been my philosophy for, you know, what we do is like, and what we do is really hard.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: so I'm happy to show all of it. And if you can do it, more power to you. There's, there's a whole business side of it too. That makes it hard to recreate what we're doing.
John: Actually funny, we we used to get more people that would um ask us how to make their own fixture plate. And like, of course, i'm not going to tell sorry like I'm not going to tell you how to make your own.
John: um But there's middle ground there because some people were like, hey, we want to buy a bunch of mod vices, but we're to make our own plate. Like, I totally get it. Like, I don't care if you make your own, but um I do care if you're like, hey, I'm struggling.
John: Could you help me?
johngrimsmo: yeah Can you hold my hand while
John: And I'm like, The reality is like, yes, we've got it down to a pretty good, decent science. um But it's it's not as easy as you might think, especially if you don't happen to have a machine big enough. Because usually you want to make a plate that's the same size or even bigger.
johngrimsmo: but Yeah.
John: I'm not going to sit here and try to make it sound like we're God's gift to anything, including your plate.
johngrimsmo: No, but you have figured things out. Exactly.
John: But like your average guy wants to pick up a piece of material from a material supplier and make his own plate.
johngrimsmo: Yep.
John: um Okay, go for it.
johngrimsmo: Exactly.
John: um Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Yep. and And as you know, not all machines can kiss the table. Like you got to raise it all up, right?
John: Oh yeah, right.
johngrimsmo: Like Haas machines can, I guess, right?
John: That's funny.
johngrimsmo: ah Some.
John: Don't try it with a... That's question. I don't know.
johngrimsmo: Like you make a fixture plate that attaches to the table, like one inch off the table, like the surface of your fixture plate is one inch off the table, right?
John: and
John: So when we but actually, so we just posted a video showing us making a plate, which is actually side story, super awesome outcome. Do you know Cloud 42, James Cloud?
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John: um I
johngrimsmo: Actually, I saw he posted a video that was like, I made my own fixture plate. And i was like, I wonder if Saunders knows, like had something to do with that.
John: know he bought ours.
johngrimsmo: Okay.
John: So I don't remember if he and I have talked before, but i kind of knew who he was. i I have a lot of respect for him. His videos are excellent.
johngrimsmo: I did too.
John: They're very very educational.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: He's very scientific without acting like a know-it-all. Like it just really seems like a great guy. um And so I happened to see that he bought a plate and I looked up and he'd ordered stuff in the past. And i was like, hey, it looks like you have some Gen 2 mod devices. Do you mind if I just throw in a Gen 3 mod device?
John: I was genuinely doing this to... like, hey, you're a good dude, like, here's a, you should take a new mod device.
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep. ye yeahp
John: um He ended up making a whole video on the fixture plate process. And it was a great video. We shared it amongst the team at our shop lunch yesterday, because it really helped validate, like, we make a product that really helps people use their machines better.
John: the both the fixture plate itself and the mod vice. Um, you know, whether you need to have a larger part, odd size part, you're trying to get a part closer to the Y column them or further out left, right. Like it, it really does help.
John: And I understand that everybody wants a fixture plate, blah, blah. But like, it was a, it just was like great. Like, and it was a good example of like online or influencer marketing these days. And I think was, was a good thing and not versus paying some guy 10 grand.
johngrimsmo: Right.
John: it but Like, hey will you tell everybody how awesome we are? Um, so I'm getting rem rambling here.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: Well, I have a question on that.
John: What is,
johngrimsmo: um Going back to the influencer marketing thing, like you as Saunders Machine Works can clearly make videos, but I haven't seen his video yet. Could you have made that video and explained to your product in the way that a third party did?
John: Could we have technically? I guess. Yes. But I mean, don't
johngrimsmo: But have you? Sure, same.
John: I've, so this is probably a worthy of this whole conversation on like the kind of like dig your well before you're thirsty. But like one of the major flaws in my opinion of ah what I've done running this company is we have done no quote unquote marketing. Now that's not true.
John: We this podcast and YouTube and blah, blah, blah.
johngrimsmo: sure same
John: But like, I don't have levers to pull if, if we have, slow sales or we need to promote, like, frankly, we're struggling it a little bit with like, okay, what's the right way to, um other than saying it right now, we're selling expanding pins. They're a great fixturing technique. We've mentioned it here before. We've had some sales, but what I haven't done is like, okay, we launched a new product.
John: Here's how we've mentioned it. We do a flyer, we do an email, we do a paid social service, blah, blah, blah. I haven't done that sort of thing. Now, one of the reasons we haven't done it is we haven't had to. um
johngrimsmo: yeah same
John: we've we've done We've done well enough without it, but that's not a great answer. um So I couldn't have done James videos because number one, I don't have a Precision Matthews machine.
John: Number two, I don't have an actual wholesome organic use case to be showing the part he was trying to make.
johngrimsmo: right
John: um And of course, I'm horribly conflicted um as the producer and seller of that product. So his video was for sure better off coming from him.
johngrimsmo: Well, I think we like everything you just said resonates perfectly with me. I'm in the exact same boat. I've never made a video using our knives or showing all the details about everything that like I'll show machining videos and I'll talk, but we're not making marketing pitch videos because we haven't really had to.
johngrimsmo: Maybe there's a future where we should need to do have to. And then all the reviews that are on all the organic reviews people put online, like I couldn't have said all those things.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: I mean, I could have, but I'm not sitting here doing it.
John: yeah Yeah.
johngrimsmo: And it's an interesting, like, I feel like we're blinding ourselves with like, yeah, but I make videos. Why would I ever pay anybody else to make videos like for us to influence our marketing kind of thing? Like that's silly. We could just do that ourselves, but here we are not doing it ourselves.
John: Yeah. Um, and we need to do that on the puck chuck because the puck chuck sales that we've had have been good and, um, oh Well, what I don't think I've really shared this yet. We need the we wanted to have enough in inventory before we actually tried to start selling them because we're not interested in not selling shipping what we promised or back orders, but blah, blah, blah.
John: And we need manual puck chucks. And partly, this is mostly just an excuse, but because we're doing all this overhaul of these equipment, we didn't really want to make um the manual it's a thinner version the manual puck chuck and so to be totally honest we we subbed it out through xometry which i don't think we've ever done we don't plan to and it's not my style but i'm also not like in a super hide it like we were gonna potentially finish machine them here anyways anyways they came back total junk like we we we had conversations back and forth about the prints and it was just junk so um they're working through that stuff right now um
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: in the, whatever, it's not a great, it's kind of a frustrating experience. Cause we didn't go couple of the other shops that we knew of, we reached out to, it was going to be eight weeks. And I was like, Oh, we want these things in like three weeks. We'll pay for it. Um, anyway.
johngrimsmo: yeah is there a future where you just don't make the manual and you just only offer the pneumatic
John: We could, but we sort of forgetting about limitations, we were, with the three of us here sat down and it's like, what do we want to do? We want to make a video on our popular YouTube channel, or the the big YouTube channel um and say, hey, here's a new product we're offering.
John: This is like the first time we've ever really done an explicit sales video, but it's really just, it's gonna be a three minute video showing the use case in this area.
johngrimsmo: yeah yeah which is pneumatic manual and secret
John: And hopefully would generate some interest and then that lead to sales. And we wanted to do that showing all three variants. That's important to me. So we're not gonna do that until we have the third variant in stock and ready to ship.
John: So the the the automatic is the Rolls Royce, kind of like similar to ah other zero point systems out there with pneumatic lines open and close it. It's about two inches high. It's what you've seen that has the hockey puck on top of the base.
johngrimsmo: okay
John: The manual version is the same, Exact same as that, except it uses a wrench. What has a different actuating mechanism, but it uses a wrench instead of a pneumatic line. Then there's a third version, which is what I'm talking about. And I misspoke. It's called the puck chuck light.
John: Sorry, John. And it is much closer to just looking like a hockey puck. There's no base to it. um It'll be much lower price point. It'll be great for hobby users or the yes manual.
johngrimsmo: Got manual.
John: Yes.
johngrimsmo: But still like same um interface, same puck chuck clamping.
John: Same pull studs, they it'll be lower profile, so it won't be, you wouldn't have them, like I don't even think the same customer would ever buy the two different ones.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, pull stuff.
John: Like aerospace shop or big job shop is going to buy the real puck chuck and a hobby guy or a person who wants zero points for a, even for a tour market, these would be fine, ah would buy the puck chuck light.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: And it'll be, the price should be pretty awesome on it.
johngrimsmo: what about for like a bench loading setup like one that's screwed to your workbench so if yeah yeah
John: What do you mean?
John: Oh, just to like load fixtures and stuff. Yeah. like Actually, it's a great point. Let me ask Alex to make sure, but there's, that should be fine.
johngrimsmo: Because we have ah we have a mini manual Auroa MX um palette that is not bolted to our desk, but it's on the desk and it should be bolted um that we use you know periodically.
John: Yeah. Right.
johngrimsmo: If we torque something, tighten something, don't want to put it in the Auroa palette changer and just want to like manipulate it.
John: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
johngrimsmo: um I actually used it under ah drop indicator and even on the surface plate the other day. um And it was great.
John: What just occurred to me is the, the, both of the the big boy puck chucks are 60 Rockwell around number 60 Rockwell. The puck chuck light is just pre-hard 4140. So the only thing I would discourage would be, especially if it's a workbench where you're like loading and unloading fixtures is it will get some wear and tear on it.
John: And I wouldn't want to be cross contaminating a fixture that's loaded on a, on a puck chuck that may have some dings and dents and stuff on it going back onto my, but yeah, otherwise.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: That's good point. Yeah, good things to think about.
John: um we I have no idea what the original point of that whole Cloud 42 comment was, but and sorry, I don't know, whatever.
johngrimsmo: thats Cool. Cool. That's good.
John: somebody If we didn't close the loop on that please feel free to email us in and tell us what we didn't finish. um I had a big win that I wanted to share that blew my mind. And I hope everybody else in the world knows this.
John: And I'm the only one, last person to figure it out. but um Johnny Five's eyelids um are a really important part of his look and I really wanted them to be smooth.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: um theyre I'm 3D printing them to keep the weight down, to keep the motion as free moving as I can and not have them out of like metal, although most most other guys are doing them out of some version of metal.
John: um So we'll see where we end up. But I wanted a 3D printed one for now. And i have always... printed on a textured build plate, as far as I've ever known in my 3D printing history.
johngrimsmo: Yep, yep.
John: So it ends up with a very nice homogenous texture though to it. And these are ASA because they actually printed them out PETG, painted them. And then in the sun, they started to to curl because they're so thin. so I was like, okay, I'm going to go to ASA, higher temperature resistance. But I primed them, tried sanding them. It's a huge pain in the butt. I made a sanding jig to like, actually, hold on.
John: I 3D printed this jig and then obviously this is the part that holds it.
johngrimsmo: That's a big eyelid.
John: Yeah, they are big, huh?
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: um But you can see how thin they are.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: And so um setting them and they have a servo mount in the back. So setting them on this 3D printed jig lets me apply some force and sand them flat. Sanding them stunk. Like it just didn't want stand well. It's going be a ton of work and I could ramble, but I realized, wait minute here.
John: Aren't there smooth build plates? And I happen to have one from bamboo. I have no idea why worked. It's never been used as brand new in the box through the bill plate on this, is on the X-1 carbon.
johngrimsmo: yeah
John: And it is the most perfect smooth, like just unbelievably freaking awesome finish out of black ASA.
johngrimsmo: Yes.
John: Like I don't even need to paint it. They look perfect.
johngrimsmo: Oh, that's amazing.
John: So that's my, if anybody ever wants smooth prints and hasn't used smooth build plate, buy one for 20 bucks.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, yeah.
John: do Do you use smooth build plates?
johngrimsmo: textured is what's on the machine. I know we have several, but I never switched them out. I just deal with it.
John: Yeah.
johngrimsmo: It's fine. I know the guys have had sticking issues on the texture or the smooth plates.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: Like, it's funny because Eric uses super glue stick for like every single print.
John: I'll go six.
johngrimsmo: That's just his default. I never use it. And we have this weird kind of like joke about it. And I'm like, why do you still use that? He's like, why don't you? don't know. I never have built. I never have stick problems. I'm like, I mostly don't have stick problems. But I'm also not printing like a ton of stuff.
John: I Googled it. It looked like it could be an issue. I started the print early enough that I could see it if it failed. And I've now done, I've done six of them for real.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: I'm starting to print a backup set and there's been no adhesion issues. What it hears well and it releases fine.
johngrimsmo: Yeah.
John: So I'm not bamboo's just got that stuff. So dialed.
John: Yep. That's all I got on my list today.
johngrimsmo: Yeah, me too, actually. Just finished.
johngrimsmo: Well...
John: Good. anything on tap for today?
johngrimsmo: I don't know yet.
John: Okay.
johngrimsmo: You? You?
John: Fair enough. um
John: Well, now I feel like I'm in the same boat. um We need to go look at a...
johngrimsmo: i
John: Go ahead.
johngrimsmo: i've ah I've wrapped up a few of my bigger projects that have been consuming me, so i like i don't know yet.
John: Yeah. I'm going back and forth with some machine tool vendors on specs, prices, quotes, et cetera. Oh, we're going print, we're going order send cut, send sheet metal thing for the Haas conveyors. If you, anybody listening runs Haas know about this, the chips will not go through the auger into the chip chute, but they'll pile up above it.
John: We used to have a 3d printed smack down arm that would kind of stop the chips from going that way. would push more flow into the auger that three broken way.
johngrimsmo: Sweet.
John: in one of our sit downs today where we do every week with every employee, they were like, Hey, can we get that again? I was like yeah, let me go look at that. Let's send cut, send it. And then it'll be, oh you know, sheet metal. Um, and that'll be a quality of life improvement. So I gotta, I gotta go play with that.
johngrimsmo: All right.
John: That's all I got.
johngrimsmo: All right, man.
John: See you next week.
johngrimsmo: I will see you next week. Okay. Bye.
John: Bye.
