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#424 I hate rework
2.8k Plays7 days ago
TOPICS:
- I hate rework
- Aligning the Erowa chuck on the Kern
- Expanding clamps
- One piece flow vs batchwork
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Episode 424 of 'The Business of Machining'
00:00:01
John Saunders
Good afternoon. Welcome to the business of machining episode number 424. My name is John Saunders.
00:00:08
johngrimsmo
And my name is John Grimsmow.
Complacency and Continuous Improvement
00:00:10
John Saunders
Um, I am trying to avoid being complacent and sometimes that means you just have to brainstorm with like-minded folks about what do we do that we do well and leave it alone versus when do you think about, no, let's, let's, uh, let's push our shelves.
00:00:24
John Saunders
So that's my, that's my topic du jour.
Balancing Improvement Perception
00:00:27
John Saunders
Um, but how are you?
00:00:27
johngrimsmo
Ooh, I like it.
00:00:31
johngrimsmo
Um, I certainly go through that mental exercise periodically, uh, cause you get comfortable, you get like, this is what we do. This is all, you know, we're good.
00:00:43
johngrimsmo
And then i go through periods where I'm like, I actually, that's one of my notes for today. Everything is fine versus everything is broken.
00:00:51
John Saunders
Well, and look, let's just be honest. It's also like, there's a value to telling yourself, telling your spouse, telling your team that everything is fine because there's a confidence in like, Hey, no, we're doing well versus the like, no, let's fix some stuff.
00:00:59
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:01:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. um Yeah. So I'm entering an everything is broken phase.
00:01:09
John Saunders
Okay. Would you like to share
Implementing Process Improvements
00:01:12
John Saunders
more?
00:01:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I mean, there's some very specific things, but then there's the more like ephemeral, is that the right word? um Kind of big picture things. So we're like, oh, we could be doing so many things better, different, smoother, more streamlined.
00:01:26
johngrimsmo
um whether it's equipment or you know allocated manpower or just process control. um And it kind of becomes too big of a hurdle to really sink your teeth into.
00:01:34
John Saunders
the
00:01:38
johngrimsmo
So I just kind of kind of loosely stress out about it. and then And then I try to pick a couple of things that I'm like, all right, maybe over the next few weeks, I want to spend some time and start ah honing in on which ones will make the biggest impact first.
00:01:50
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:01:53
johngrimsmo
um Mostly process improvements.
00:01:53
John Saunders
Done.
00:01:56
johngrimsmo
And it like literally take some time and walk around the shop with each person and be like, I know you're really good at what you do and you put your head down and you get it done. But what if it were easier would make your life a lot easier and let you produce more with less effort?
00:02:13
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:02:13
johngrimsmo
And I bet you most of the people in the shop, if dug deep enough, could find some of those things, you know?
00:02:21
John Saunders
Yeah. Not only the outcome of that, but I think it's equally important to think about the input of just the mentality and the expectation around like, hey, like let's all have fun and be good at what we do.
00:02:31
John Saunders
And that to some extent involves being willing to do that.
00:02:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And some jobs are a constant struggle and that is just, that's just how it is.
Addressing Machining Anomalies
00:02:43
johngrimsmo
And I'm, well, I'm kind of, let me think, um like some jobs um just require possibly several rounds of rework, whether it's a hand operation, um you know, polishing something again and again and again until it's done versus, or, you know, say remachining something because it's,
00:02:43
John Saunders
Well, like what though? yeah if you're If you're able to share one.
00:03:05
johngrimsmo
not perfect, our blade bevels, um if they measure too big, we can easily remachine them, but it's a whole nother 20 minute cycle.
00:03:06
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:03:14
johngrimsmo
And why are they measuring big sometimes? You know, why are they measuring small sometimes, which is bad? um It's something like that, where there are processes in place to fix the anomaly.
00:03:25
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:03:26
johngrimsmo
But let's eliminate the anomaly from the get.
00:03:28
John Saunders
Yes.
00:03:29
johngrimsmo
Right?
00:03:29
John Saunders
Yes. No, like, can't emphasize that enough. The best way to do lean is to delete the fricking process.
00:03:34
johngrimsmo
Exactly. And I think and I see around the shop, because we have all these processes in place to fix stuff that's not ideal, everybody has their marching orders and just does it. That's great.
00:03:47
johngrimsmo
However, delete the process.
00:03:51
John Saunders
Yes. Agreed. yeah i hate rework um it's it's like stuff happens like by all means but yeah i'll i'm not i'm not gonna complain about that say um yeah are you well i was gonna ask you about the current but sorry don't want to steal your but thunder okay what else or keep going
00:03:57
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:04:04
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:04:07
johngrimsmo
Totally.
00:04:15
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I'll get into that.
Kern Machine Troubleshooting
00:04:18
johngrimsmo
And then on a more smaller scale, like things that are actually broken, um the Kern is currently down, has been since Saturday, I guess. um Nothing major, just the Aeroa, the clamping mechanism, the ball lock system in the Aeroa chuck in the Kern.
00:04:36
John Saunders
Oh.
00:04:37
johngrimsmo
that receives a pallet and holds the pallet down.
00:04:40
johngrimsmo
um For the past couple weeks, when it changes out some of our heavier pallets, the arm comes in, it crips onto the pallet, it lifts it up and then out. When it lifts it up, you can see the arm flexing and you can hear, and once once it releases, it goes pop, and little boing, and then it pulls it out.
00:04:53
John Saunders
oh
00:04:58
johngrimsmo
And it's only failed like twice in the past week, but it's been chunking for a couple weeks now.
00:05:06
John Saunders
What does fail mean?
00:05:07
johngrimsmo
as something alarms out and says it it can't physically remove it in time or whatever.
00:05:09
John Saunders
Ah, okay.
00:05:13
johngrimsmo
um So an alarm pops up. It's not the biggest deal, but clearly this is a this is a problem that's getting worse. and
00:05:20
John Saunders
No, no, no. If you ignore this, it'll just self-remedy.
00:05:21
johngrimsmo
Exactly. It is not going away. It is it is getting worse. But we knew that to dig into it would take some time and some effort and and whatever.
00:05:29
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:05:30
johngrimsmo
so um Angelo noticed that it was down on on Saturday. So he came in and he's like, yeah, it's it was in the stuck position. um So he came in on the weekend to unstuck it.
00:05:39
John Saunders
Oh, that's solid.
00:05:42
johngrimsmo
And he's like he's like, I'm putting my foot down. like We're fixing this on Monday. And that's good. So we took it apart. And it turns out the O-rings that seal around the piston inside that goes up and down, it's like this maybe four inch diameter piston with two O-rings.
00:05:56
John Saunders
Anything.
00:05:57
johngrimsmo
um I all that I can see other than some chips that are probably where they shouldn't be is that the O-rings have swollen so much that they won't even stay in the groove anymore.
00:06:09
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:06:10
johngrimsmo
Like they're so big.
00:06:10
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:06:11
johngrimsmo
And I just wonder if they swelled so much that they created so much resistance inside the bore that they just shoot too much friction to let it fully like unclamp kind of thing. Yeah.
00:06:23
John Saunders
my But two O-rings shouldn't be a big deal or is there more to the
00:06:27
johngrimsmo
and No, it's it's pretty much that. And they're metric O-rings, um but order them from McMaster, get them the next morning. ah So they came in yesterday morning and cleaned everything, put it together.
00:06:39
johngrimsmo
no worries. It went pretty smoothly. um It's the calibration that I'm currently stuck on for the past 24 hours. um getting that chuck centered on the center of rotation of the C axis.
00:06:54
johngrimsmo
And cause I'm looking at I'm like, wait, there's no alignment pins. And then I remembered kind of machine build theory as we've learned in other things is that you don't want alignment pins because you need adjustability to get it bang on.
00:07:08
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:07:09
John Saunders
Right.
00:07:09
johngrimsmo
And then the torque keeps it in place.
00:07:12
johngrimsmo
And then just like, uh,
00:07:12
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:07:14
johngrimsmo
a year ago or whatever, when we crashed the Kernan Z and the whole trunnion slipped downwards so many degrees because there's no alignment pins, because you need to be able to tap it in and torque it to 600 foot pounds or whatever it was.
00:07:23
John Saunders
Yes.
00:07:27
John Saunders
Sure.
00:07:31
johngrimsmo
And, uh, and that's just how it works. I was like, okay, of course there's no alignment pits, but now it puts the onus on me to like align this thing properly. And,
00:07:40
John Saunders
you have I'm asking the dumb question, but to replace the O-rings, you had to ah compromise or loosen or lose the...
00:07:47
johngrimsmo
Totally.
00:07:47
John Saunders
Okay, got it.
00:07:48
johngrimsmo
Basically the entire chuck came off the machine and then there's gotta be 30 springs inside like little tiny, uh, maybe quarter inch diameter by two inches long.
00:07:51
John Saunders
Got it.
00:08:01
johngrimsmo
And like a lot of them.
00:08:02
John Saunders
Oh, really?
00:08:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah. And we had to create, um, the guys used all thread rod and a big aluminum strap and a big, big aluminum strap on the bottom and created this, uh,
00:08:12
John Saunders
Oh.
00:08:13
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:08:13
johngrimsmo
you know, manual hydraulic press kind of thing that goes under the trunnion and over the pallet and squishes it together and lets us loosen the bolts and slowly walk it up.
00:08:21
johngrimsmo
And it worked great. And it worked awesome because the, the mounting bolts are too short to keep it constrained during the, um, the spring.
00:08:29
John Saunders
to To grab.
00:08:33
John Saunders
We have the exact same thing that Alex designed for assembling our puck chucks.
00:08:37
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:08:37
John Saunders
Preloads the center Belleville so that you can assemble the thing without being under the Belleville pressure of like trying to use.
00:08:43
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:08:43
John Saunders
Yeah, it's great.
00:08:45
johngrimsmo
Is it like a manual you got to screw it down or is it arbor press type thing or is it hydraulic or?
00:08:52
John Saunders
I am 90% sure the current iteration is a screw system. In the past, we have built a jig for a press, but now we wanted something that was kind of, i believe, just safer and better designed for production, if you will.
00:09:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:09:03
John Saunders
um I should ask, no, I don't, I've just looked at it.
Ensuring Precise Machine Setup
00:09:05
John Saunders
don't know.
00:09:05
johngrimsmo
i'll I'll send you the video of the Aroa teardown because they built this like hydraulic pressing system thingy for their factory that just looks really, really cool.
00:09:13
John Saunders
Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
00:09:13
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, I'll send you that. um Anyway, um so I have a calibration palette that I thought would do the job. It's like a medium-sized palette that's got two flats on it so you can indicate your rotation.
00:09:29
johngrimsmo
And then it's got a hole in the center, which is exactly 12 millimeter, like... to the 10th um i i don't think that hole is on center of the palette according to the um aroha locates with these little pyramid thingies on the bottom that helps locate it
00:09:40
John Saunders
Of the palette. Okay. CMM it.
00:09:50
John Saunders
Yeah, I remember seeing them before. i don't know them well, but they just look really weird. And frankly, they look fragile, even though they're probably kinematically brilliant.
00:09:57
johngrimsmo
so the the way they work is on the bottom of the palette there's let's call it a sheet metal plate with four holes in it, four rectangle holes.
00:10:04
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:10:06
johngrimsmo
And those rectangle holes fit into little pyramid pointy thingies. And that sheet metal plate is meant to deform ever so slightly and align everything. But then there are big feet that are your locating surfaces.
00:10:19
John Saunders
OK. Got
00:10:20
johngrimsmo
So all those all that little sheet metal plate is meant to do is deform slightly and keep it aligned. um And it seems to work pretty well.
00:10:25
John Saunders
it.
00:10:28
John Saunders
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:10:30
johngrimsmo
So my calibration palette is not repeating um and it's giving me very difficult job of aligning this thing.
00:10:42
johngrimsmo
And so I line the Auroa palette with the OD of the Auroa chuck, which I assume would be good, but I don't know if it is good. And don't I'm just at this point where I don't know what's right and I don't know what's wrong and the numbers aren't making sense.
00:10:56
johngrimsmo
And in my mind, I should be able to, like this calibration palette has a precision hole in the middle. I should be able to sweep that with an indicator by rotating the C-axis.
00:11:05
John Saunders
Sure.
00:11:06
johngrimsmo
I should be able to remove the palette, rotate it 90 degrees, put it back on, and sweep it.
00:11:10
John Saunders
Yep.
00:11:11
johngrimsmo
And it should sweep the same answer. And I should be able
00:11:14
John Saunders
rotate them Rotate the B, the A, is it an A or B on yours?
00:11:19
John Saunders
It's an A. thank you, of course, C. Or do you mean physically pick up and rotate clock at 90 degrees differently?
00:11:19
johngrimsmo
see.
00:11:25
johngrimsmo
Both. So i'm measuring by rotating C axis and then, and then I'm lifting up, I'm removing the pallet, rotating 90 degrees, putting it back on sweeping C again and assuming the results should be the same.
00:11:28
John Saunders
Okay. Oh, yeah.
00:11:37
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:11:37
johngrimsmo
And they're not, they're out by like a foul.
00:11:38
John Saunders
Okay.
00:11:40
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, no no, I don't like this. Um, and then talking with one of the guys on Instagram who runs a current, he's like, and Dennis also, he said, well, you're using the not a row of brand, uh,
00:11:43
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:11:54
John Saunders
There's a row with two Rs.
00:11:56
johngrimsmo
Yeah, calibration palette. Okay. And then also, Aeroa has this centering gauge that's like a small palette with a ground OD and a ground ID and a ground face that is meant for this.
00:12:11
johngrimsmo
um And I don't have that, but eBay has it for $330 and I just bought it.
00:12:13
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:12:16
John Saunders
Okay.
00:12:17
johngrimsmo
But I still want a solution today.
00:12:21
John Saunders
I hear you.
00:12:21
John Saunders
go
00:12:21
johngrimsmo
So like, that's where I'm at.
00:12:23
johngrimsmo
I have um on the current came with a ring gauge. You can indicate the probe and it's got three magnets glued to the bottom, which is nice.
00:12:28
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:12:31
John Saunders
That's nice.
00:12:32
johngrimsmo
It came like that.
00:12:33
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:12:34
johngrimsmo
And so I thought, okay, what I can do is I can take a small flat palette and I can magnet this ring gauge on top of it. And I can tap it in until the C axis sweeps at zero in this current orientation.
00:12:41
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:12:45
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:47
johngrimsmo
And that's with like a real pallet and the real ring gauge, perfectly round hole. And if I lift up the pallet, rotate it 90 degrees, put install it again, it should sweep zero again, telling me my chuck is aligned, right?
00:12:59
John Saunders
Yes. Oh, great point. Sure. You're making you're making your own circle on that.
00:13:04
johngrimsmo
Exactly. Using a ring, I'm not machining anything. It's just a ring gauge that I've tapped in and it's magneted down.
00:13:09
John Saunders
Yep.
00:13:10
John Saunders
Smart.
00:13:10
johngrimsmo
The magnets, ah they move very easily if i if I knock it on the way down or if I hit it with my hand or whatever, but I was able to keep it repeating straight.
00:13:13
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:13:20
johngrimsmo
And then I rotated 90 degrees and now I get about plus five tenths on one side, minus five tenths on the other side. So I'm, yeah, I'm closer, but I still have a thou total.
00:13:28
John Saunders
So still file.
00:13:31
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:13:32
johngrimsmo
and telling me my chuck is out of center. Okay, it's a result. So I loosened it, I did some calculations in fusion based on those four rotations.
00:13:43
johngrimsmo
And I kind of thought, okay, if i take my main chuck and I slide it over 7 tenths in this direction, should be able to get closer. um But even after moving the chuck a little bit, I'm still getting pretty much the same results from my measuring testing.
00:13:59
John Saunders
How do you, so have you ever dialed in a Heimer tip?
00:14:02
johngrimsmo
Not a Heimer, but lots of Renshaw probes.
00:14:05
John Saunders
Oh, sorry. Same thing. It's like basically a four jaw chuck. You have four set screws and and it's iterative.
00:14:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:10
John Saunders
And if you're good at it, you get lucky. It's great. Sometimes you can just find a bigger, like what the heck is going on with today?
00:14:15
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:14:15
John Saunders
Do you, what what do you have though, to actually influence the location of this chuck?
00:14:21
johngrimsmo
It'll move many thou if you loosen the hammer.
00:14:23
John Saunders
No, but, but what moves it? screws?
00:14:27
John Saunders
I've just shuddered at seeing, remember when Lauren's got a machine installed and he saw a new tech using what may or may not have been a hammer.
00:14:29
johngrimsmo
I mean...
00:14:36
John Saunders
And i I believe that was dealt with promptly.
00:14:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah, a soft dead blow, small hammer.
00:14:42
John Saunders
And then it just stays in place though.
00:14:45
John Saunders
Like there' so there's not preload screw.
00:14:45
johngrimsmo
it was So I loosen the screws, I crack them loose.
00:14:49
johngrimsmo
And then those 20 springs have now sprung up the pallet just a tiny little bit the chuck.
00:14:54
John Saunders
Okay.
00:14:54
johngrimsmo
And then I can use the soft dead blow and I can tap it a little bit to shift it around in this flat plane.
00:14:58
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:00
John Saunders
home
00:15:01
johngrimsmo
And then I cinch it down again and torque them. And then now it's in position, but moved. So because there are no pins locating it, like it is my job to align this in planer XY.
00:15:07
John Saunders
yeah like
00:15:12
John Saunders
yeah
00:15:13
johngrimsmo
And that's how you do it.
00:15:16
John Saunders
I don't have a lot of time to add, except I remember watching a Tom Lipton video long years ago where he was working on a surface plate doing a similar sort of precision measurement setup.
00:15:28
John Saunders
And I'm thinking this is when I was much younger as a machinist. I'm like, oh, surface plate, pristine, cleep it clean. He whips out a hot glue gun and starts hot gluing like you whatever, one, two, three block or something, a sign plate.
00:15:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:15:39
John Saunders
to And I'm like, oh my God. and then you And then you're like, oh, wait, no, totally acceptable. So My only thought being there, if you get your ring gauge lined up, hot glue or even super glue, which will dissolve with acetone and can be removed with a scraped razor blade, et cetera, cetera.
00:15:48
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:15:51
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:15:55
johngrimsmo
Totally. Yeah, I was thinking super glue, but then I realized even if I get it dialed in dead nuts in one orientation, if I rotate the pallet 90 degrees, now the ring gauge is out because my chuck is out.
00:16:08
John Saunders
But that's what you're trying to prove, right?
00:16:08
johngrimsmo
And it's...
00:16:09
johngrimsmo
But I don't want and don't want to lock down the ring gauge yet because it's not perfect yet.
00:16:10
John Saunders
what are you trying
00:16:14
johngrimsmo
Does that make sense? I don't know.
00:16:16
John Saunders
Okay. No, that didn't.
00:16:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's hard to...
00:16:18
John Saunders
You don't, but you don't think there's a problem with the machine, right?
00:16:21
John Saunders
This is just you.
00:16:21
johngrimsmo
No.
00:16:22
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:16:22
John Saunders
Yeah, you're just trying to align the chug.
00:16:23
John Saunders
It'll stop. Okay.
00:16:23
johngrimsmo
Yep, exactly.
00:16:25
johngrimsmo
But knowing which way and how much and what to measure is kind of where I'm stuck right now. If I had the proper calibration gauge, which I've just ordered, this would be 10 times faster because I would...
00:16:36
John Saunders
Do you have one of those lathe indicators that, where the indicator stays facing you and it turns?
00:16:41
johngrimsmo
ah Coax indicator?
00:16:42
John Saunders
Thank you.
00:16:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I did buy one, but they're not accurate. They're like thou accurate.
00:16:48
John Saunders
Okay.
00:16:49
johngrimsmo
um But I can, since I'm sweeping the sea the indicator doesn't have to move at all.
00:16:57
John Saunders
Yeah, I'm trying to think here. I'm not smart enough on the fly to do this, but what if you also just rotate the spindle and leave it believe it
00:17:06
johngrimsmo
Rotating the spindle tells you basically your XY position to that hole.
00:17:10
John Saunders
right, right?
00:17:11
johngrimsmo
Your spindle position, which is another answer you need, but not the chuck.
00:17:11
John Saunders
now Not the chucks.
00:17:16
John Saunders
Well, but it could tell you something. Okay, so if you were to, yeah let's call spindle rotation with with the pallet and it's zero angle, like just one, one orientation, you zero it, then you rotate the chuck, physically rotate it 90 degrees without without touching your C, and then you jog the indicator back down and sweep it again, that should tell you what way you're out.
00:17:30
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah. Which just for the podcast, I tried with the probe to do the same thing, basically like X, y touch the hole and see X, Y position.
00:17:41
John Saunders
Yeah, really.
00:17:44
John Saunders
Big up.
00:17:45
johngrimsmo
Um, and it didn't really match my other readings.
00:17:49
johngrimsmo
I'm not sure what to make of that, but I'll keep going. Um,
00:17:51
John Saunders
Does it at least repeat all these errors? Like if you go back, okay, so, yeah.
00:17:54
johngrimsmo
Yes, it does. That's good. And then I go back to the zero rotation position and I get perfectly centered because that's good. Nothing's moved. um So I'm just, I'm learning, I'm playing with it. I'm trying to get it perfect.
00:18:07
johngrimsmo
um
00:18:07
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:18:09
johngrimsmo
And I was thinking, well, does it have to be perfect? Like, is it just going to self machine everything? I'm like, well, because I have five axis part in the fjall handle and it likes to rotate flip flop 180, 180, and it's machining from both sides.
00:18:24
johngrimsmo
if X is off by five tenths, like it's going to throw things out.
00:18:26
John Saunders
Oh, yeah. That's
00:18:29
John Saunders
what was going to ask. You have you dozens of fixtures, et cetera. everything Everything is the same coordinate system, which is your zero point.
00:18:37
johngrimsmo
Correct.
00:18:37
John Saunders
So this this is this is worth doing right.
00:18:39
John Saunders
Like you're not going to reprove each one and comp it and blah, blah,
00:18:39
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:18:40
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:18:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I do that anyway for a lot of them just to make sure it's optimal. Um, cause there's always differences, fixture to fixture kind of thing. And, um,
00:18:49
John Saunders
blah. Mm-hmm.
00:18:53
johngrimsmo
So I just, I want to be right. You know?
00:18:55
John Saunders
Yeah, totally.
00:18:57
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:18:58
John Saunders
Well, sometimes um I remind myself, pour yourself a cup of coffee, smile, take a take take a break, like it's okay, you know.
00:19:03
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:19:05
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. No, I'm pretty calm with it. I'm just ah looking forward to it being done.
00:19:13
John Saunders
Yeah, I hear you. Are you doing okay on production stuff or is causing public?
00:19:18
johngrimsmo
it's ah It's, we're fine for now, but couple couple days, it'll be a bottleneck for sure.
00:19:21
John Saunders
Okay.
00:19:23
John Saunders
Yeah, got it.
00:19:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:19:25
John Saunders
Sweet.
00:19:27
John Saunders
um I have a bunch of topic-y stuff. um One for fun, I am gonna go to the Hermla 5 Access Summit in September.
00:19:38
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:19:39
John Saunders
It's free, anybody can register. i still want to learn more about both their HSFlex and their RSO5. I don't know if it's gonna be right fit for us, but I just wanna, just like, kinda what was like, the only reasons not to are money and time, both of which are legitimate reasons, but I'm like, I'm not going to I wanna learn.
00:19:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:20:00
John Saunders
I don't think I'll walk away and say I didn't learn anything.
00:20:04
johngrimsmo
Where and when is that event?
00:20:05
John Saunders
It is in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
00:20:08
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:20:10
John Saunders
It's a two or three day event and I'm only going for one day, which I should know at the top of my head. I don't remember off the top my head. um It is September 9th, 10th and 11th, which is Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I think I'll pull it up real quick. I think I'm only going Tuesday.
00:20:33
John Saunders
Yeah, I'm going to climb on that. I'm only going Tuesday and I'm heading back home.
00:20:37
johngrimsmo
sweet yeah the current event in chicago is the kind of thursday friday before that
00:20:41
John Saunders
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that looks awesome too.
00:20:44
johngrimsmo
and uh nicholas hacko is coming out or josh hacko and um um lady machine tech is going to be there too yeah i'm i'm hoping to make it yeah adam yeah yeah
00:20:51
John Saunders
Yeah, I saw that. Adam dove. Yeah. was like, oh, you you should go Grim's Mo. But I know it's, yeah. There's always, it's always stuff going on. I for sure feel you there.
00:21:04
John Saunders
um And then I am, I don't know where Toolpath is in terms of announcing this truly publicly and all that, but they have made major milestones to being a Fusion plugin where you have a part, and it can even be one part in a bigger fixture or family of parts in one file.
00:21:15
johngrimsmo
me
00:21:23
John Saunders
You click that part, push it to Toolpath, it programs it, and then it just sends it right back into the same file. um
00:21:30
johngrimsmo
About this new file iteration you were talking about before? Okay.
00:21:32
John Saunders
Bingo. And jump. Yes, I think I've said this before. I'm biased. I'm conflicted. I'm involved. But like, darn it. This is freaking awesome.
00:21:40
johngrimsmo
No way.
00:21:41
John Saunders
It is awesome. And so now, just being totally candid, they're trying to figure out, you know, okay, yes, they're a for-profit company that's trying to adopt users. But like, the reality is, this is awesome technology.
00:21:52
John Saunders
Like, there's nobody who's using Fusion that wouldn't benefit from this.
00:21:55
johngrimsmo
you
00:21:55
John Saunders
yes Yes, it costs money. I think they actually announced it's free for hobbyists. So, yeah. I think they'll do a better job than Autodesk did about like letting hobbyists use it and not letting commercial users use it for free for years and then coming in with a hammer.
00:22:08
John Saunders
But um it's really cool. It's very, very, very awesome to just see a part get programmed.
00:22:13
John Saunders
And yes, you and I are still going to want to put our own touches on it. But I think that's actually part of this and will be part of the story forever. You know what i mean?
00:22:13
johngrimsmo
No way.
00:22:21
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:22:22
John Saunders
oh
00:22:22
johngrimsmo
When needed.
00:22:22
John Saunders
I'm not looking.
00:22:25
John Saunders
Yeah. Well, I'm never going to post the code for the machine to run it. It's just like if I asked Chachi to help me with something, going read it. I'm going to still maybe change how I do chamfers or surfacing of something.
00:22:25
johngrimsmo
I don't know.
00:22:36
John Saunders
But the reality is it saves you huge amounts of time. And then the other thing that people are using it for not as relevant for us is number one, it tells you if stuff can't be machined, like weird angles or included features or sharp corners.
00:22:49
John Saunders
And for folks that are doing job shop work, because it can program the part, it can tell you in seconds what a reasonable quoting estimate will be.
00:22:58
johngrimsmo
Okay, yeah. yeah
00:22:58
John Saunders
So, so That's something I've become more sympathetic to. If you're a small job shop and you need to quote parts every day, it was taking a huge amount of your time. And now it's just like, yeah, you know, 47 bucks or $344. Like you just tell it, you have ah pretty darn good cycle time estimate.
00:23:13
johngrimsmo
Nice. Yeah, I've been um not paying attention to the latest updates on on Toolpath.
00:23:15
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:23:18
johngrimsmo
So it's good to hear that big things are happening.
00:23:22
John Saunders
Yeah. And, you know, we don't use it. Saunders won't use it normally. We will use it for fixtures in dev, although fun in fact, I'll come back to that. But like John Saunders, just the guy who loves machining, that's building Johnny five and then R2, hopefully like R2 part made that's three, three axis or even hopefully three plus two.
00:23:39
John Saunders
It's like, I just want to make the part. I don't really.
00:23:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:23:43
John Saunders
like I love now messing with geodesic and Steven Shallow and multi-ex, that's fun. Picking a bunch of 2D pockets is, I'm um um'm good have off having the AI robots do that for me.
00:23:55
johngrimsmo
Love it.
00:23:56
John Saunders
um Okay, we had one that's both kind of sharing what I think might be a win, but also kind of brainstorming. We are making the first batch of expanding pin fixtures for sale as a Saunders product.
00:24:13
johngrimsmo
Okay, I'm very curious to see those.
00:24:15
John Saunders
Yeah, so we've been using them here for years. We love them. It's a great way to hold parts when the part lends itself to having that. Mostly because so often we're clamping across a part and that has its limitations of both um the the aspect ratio of the part itself, but also you're always imparting forces across a part, which means it's going to move on you more than often when you can hold on a one or more ID features that don't present that problem. Plus it gives you edge periphery, et cetera.
00:24:44
John Saunders
so We are going to announce those. i think what we're going to do is announce the first, think there's a hundred of them for sale at a pretty subsidized price to get them out in the use of folks' hands. We've done beta lists before, like whatever, but we're going to see how that goes. And then we're also putting out ah some sort of a form to say, what other sizes would you like? We're starting with half inch.
00:25:08
John Saunders
But I think a lot of the business case here would be to offer in stock sizes ranging from as small as three eights, maybe even quarter. They get weird when they get that small up to like an inch.
00:25:20
John Saunders
um We are our thought or our goal is to offer most size ranges up through some collared size range, call it three eights to an inch versus some of the ones where you have to buy them in the machine them.
00:25:26
johngrimsmo
yes
00:25:30
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:25:33
John Saunders
um But um So, okay, that was first half of it was kind of the Saunders. We're goingnna be doing this if folks are interested, check out our website or let reach out to us.
00:25:33
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:25:44
John Saunders
um the The more interesting thing I think was we're making these on the Willimon and they have five or six, think I have one later on here.
00:25:53
John Saunders
They have slots around the periphery, just like you would expect them to any expanding IB mandrel. One, two, three, four, five, six of them. So these slots, if you can't see or don't know, would be similar slots to an yeah ER collet slots.
00:26:08
John Saunders
They're relatively thin slots. And um this is 17.4 at 45 Rockwell. So it's, machine's great, but it's not, um it can wear out tools.
00:26:20
John Saunders
We don't want to use a saw because there's some lack of rigidity there that we found wasn't great for a saw.
00:26:28
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:26:28
John Saunders
The good news is the wood element has 42,000 RPM. So you can actually get pretty good surface footage out of even a one millimeter or 47 thou end mill. and no
00:26:39
John Saunders
So one way is we just slot it, like straight up slot it, rock and roll, a couple of depths, good to go.
00:26:43
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:26:47
John Saunders
um The other thought we had was actually slotting it with the head at an angle to try to change tool engagement.
00:26:52
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:26:55
John Saunders
um Or um think about this shape before the OD and ID have been turned.
00:27:04
johngrimsmo
cylinder. Wait.
00:27:05
John Saunders
It's a cylinder, yeah, it's round bar.
00:27:06
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:07
John Saunders
So think about a revolver cylinder.
00:27:10
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:27:11
John Saunders
So a revolver cylinder has five or six holes for your ammunition. We could take this feature with a relatively inexpensive drill. um Willman doesn't have through-spin of coolant, they they just don't, so or we don't, which is one limit because this would be 10 times DE or something.
00:27:28
johngrimsmo
Right, with a small drill.
00:27:30
John Saunders
with a small drill, one millimeter drill, but you could drill this where it's still fully, so the hole is fully supported and you you would end up with the six holes in there.
00:27:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:27:39
John Saunders
And then it's a compromise because then your turning becomes interrupted turning. And you'd still want to use an end mill to finish it, but now you're not slotting.
00:27:46
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:27:47
John Saunders
So um that's my brainstorming to where we're at. um Any thoughts?
00:27:53
johngrimsmo
I like that idea because you could like peck drill for a deep drill and get away with it for quite a while. um Yeah, and then you're just you'd leave a little skin on the OD, right?
00:28:05
johngrimsmo
That you could very very easily machine away and then chamfer and all that stuff.
00:28:05
John Saunders
Bingo. Yeah.
00:28:09
johngrimsmo
um And then for the ideas, it like tapered for a an expanding screw.
00:28:14
John Saunders
Yeah, bingo.
00:28:15
John Saunders
Yep, yep. There's actually a fairly complex geometry inside there. So we are doing a mix of both and we'll probably end up switching to more of ah a, we have a boring bar we'll probably implement, but we have a back cutting Harvey tool right now that's working great for it with some pretty cool five axis tool pass.
00:28:15
johngrimsmo
you You could you could mill it.
00:28:31
John Saunders
Well, cool from a like having fun is actually not good from a like production standpoint, but you get the point.
00:28:31
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:28:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah, but gets it done.
00:28:37
John Saunders
Yeah, exactly.
00:28:39
johngrimsmo
No, I think you're on the right track. It's beautiful.
00:28:42
John Saunders
Do you do well in your experience, both with slots, small tooling and, and higher RPM stuff, any, any words of wisdom?
00:28:50
johngrimsmo
um I forget who i was talking to. i think I was talking to Grant about it, um about small high feed end mills.
00:28:57
John Saunders
Oh, yes.
00:28:58
johngrimsmo
which are fantastic for this kind of stuff. Cause like, like one and a half thousand step down and really fast feed.
00:29:01
John Saunders
Okay.
00:29:04
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:07
johngrimsmo
And it just, the tool doesn't deflect and it puts no load into the part. Any load is straight down or straight up the tool.
00:29:11
John Saunders
Okay.
00:29:14
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:29:14
johngrimsmo
And they just work really well.
00:29:15
johngrimsmo
They're harder to find in the less than, you know, two millimeter size. Um, but,
00:29:20
John Saunders
Okay. Is this what you're doing with DeBoer?
00:29:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so DeBoer's custom making me both one millimeter and three six or one sixteenth, which would be...
00:29:29
John Saunders
They are going 1 millimeter for you.
00:29:31
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:29:31
John Saunders
Okay.
00:29:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so I buy like 10 at a time, and they're reasonable. I forget if they're like somewhere between $30 and $70. I can't remember. Yeah, I know.
00:29:42
John Saunders
So that's a big difference, Sean.
00:29:43
johngrimsmo
I know it is, but it was it was the same more cheaper than the Seco Niagara um version I was buying before, and they seemed to work a little bit better.
00:29:48
John Saunders
Okay.
00:29:52
John Saunders
Yeah. And there's a, there's probably a hybrid strategy as well. Like you could even, let's say the drilling wasn't super reliable. You could drill halfway down axially along the part. And then, then you're only slotting half the amount of material out.
00:30:04
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:05
John Saunders
Um, this is what sucks is like, I remember you were saying to Boer and, um, it's like, I don't know if I want to deal with that right now with the tariff stuff, like, which is a crappy answer, but it's the reality of, I don't even know what what they are.
00:30:16
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:20
John Saunders
You know what i mean? OK. OK.
00:30:25
johngrimsmo
But night well, even a, i think Seco and Niagara are now the same company. I forget who's the parent. Um,
00:30:31
John Saunders
OK.
00:30:33
johngrimsmo
But they do make a tool, but I think they're made in Sweden and then imported to the US for you. So you'd be paying various tariffs on that too.
00:30:39
John Saunders
okay
00:30:42
John Saunders
Yeah, the lame answer. if If somebody's already importing them, then we just pay the price. i don't What I don't want to do is like get a, yeah, like we just, we imported that Freddy from England and FedEx sent us you know,
00:30:49
johngrimsmo
A bill.
00:30:55
John Saunders
annoyingly high freight, but which we we knew, but like, whatever.
00:30:58
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. Is what it
00:30:58
John Saunders
Okay. Got it. Forget if there was another way we were talking about doing that, but it was just really fun. Like, it was good to look at something so simple to think about like, hey, how do you want to this? um Cycle time matters, tool life matters, quality matters, but yeah.
00:31:13
johngrimsmo
reliability. Yep.
00:31:15
John Saunders
good But also we're, I think, using the lakeshore right now and that's not an expensive tool. So if you replace it every whatever every day doesn't, it's not a big deal.
00:31:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:31:28
John Saunders
Good example, where I think we're having a Rego fix in repeating the gauge length makes it great to just do sister tool swaps where you just replace the swap of the tool out and and then actually in this tool, you couldn't you don't even have touched off because the Regos repeat plenty accurately enough on axial and there's no axial, doesn't me it's so that a that is fine.
00:31:47
johngrimsmo
That sounds like a branch of protocol though. It's like with this tool, you don't have to touch it off. don't Don't worry about it. But with all the other tools you have to, you know what I mean
00:31:55
John Saunders
No, that's a fair point.
00:31:56
johngrimsmo
And I try very hard to like not put those weirdnesses in because you know, two months down the road, you're going to forget.
00:31:59
John Saunders
That's fair point. Yeah.
00:32:06
John Saunders
No, you're right. And I am right there with you where it's like, that's the stupid way to crash any machine, let alone that one.
00:32:11
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Right.
00:32:12
John Saunders
Yeah, that's fair.
00:32:14
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:32:14
johngrimsmo
But on the Willimon, it's setting the tool variable to a six or whatever, and it just auto touches it off.
00:32:19
John Saunders
I think you're right.
00:32:20
John Saunders
i Okay.
00:32:20
johngrimsmo
So easy.
00:32:22
John Saunders
Yeah. So it's a moot point because it does it.
00:32:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:32:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:32:24
John Saunders
Okay. Um,
00:32:28
John Saunders
Okay, the other major thing is we started something that we were talking about about a month ago here the shop, I was traveling and
Reviewing and Enhancing Production Efficiency
00:32:34
John Saunders
blah, blah, blah. So we started last week, which is scheduled time in the calendar with each of the machinists where we sit down for half an hour and we look at the latest part you're running or a part that's been giving you fits or troubles or what's the, if you don't have anything, like just pick the part that you work on that has the longest cycle time and we'll look and see it.
00:32:42
johngrimsmo
Hmm.
00:32:52
johngrimsmo
Interesting.
00:32:54
John Saunders
And we've only done one week of these, but I thought they went incredibly well because it's like, hey, good.
00:33:02
johngrimsmo
Who's involved in this meeting? So you're one machinist and then you.
00:33:05
John Saunders
It's just me and me and Grant, me and Garrett, me and Caleb.
00:33:07
johngrimsmo
Yeah, Right, all right.
00:33:10
John Saunders
And it's like, hey, let's look at speeds and fees or let's look at fusion file structure and presets or um ramping in. And it helped.
00:33:20
johngrimsmo
does this tool break all the time or something like that? Because they are the boots on the ground that are making these parts and either they programmed it or maybe you programmed it a year or two ago.
00:33:23
John Saunders
Yep.
00:33:30
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:33:30
johngrimsmo
Exactly. I like that.
00:33:33
John Saunders
yeah And it ties in with what you talk you just talked about earlier in this podcast and I've talked about for years, which is just like, hey, we've been we've been around for 10 years now.
00:33:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:33:40
John Saunders
Like some stuff just happens because it's the way it's always been done. And unless you disrupt things just to intervene, but it's also like, hey, let's learn.
00:33:47
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:33:49
John Saunders
Let's ask questions. Let's enable and help them learn and be better at what they do. um There's things about Fusion. I learned from talking to guys like you or sitting on webinars, but then there's stuff they see because they're sitting there every day.
00:34:02
John Saunders
trying to get something do something. So I i really, just it really was checking a lot of boxes for me.
00:34:09
johngrimsmo
That's excellent.
00:34:12
John Saunders
Yeah, we'll see how I think it'll, I think it, I don't know why it won't continue, but I'm pretty fired up about it So be serious if it, for some reason, whatever fades, if you will.
00:34:12
johngrimsmo
I like
00:34:15
johngrimsmo
it.
00:34:19
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:34:23
johngrimsmo
If, um you know, best case scenario is we don't have to do this anymore. i have nothing to bring to you as employee.
00:34:28
John Saunders
the
00:34:30
johngrimsmo
Like.
00:34:31
John Saunders
Sure, which is a which won't happen, but it's also like, okay, then let's just like let's just look at something new or like some of this even like, hey, let's look at three printing best practices or what's coming out or...
00:34:36
johngrimsmo
Sure. Yeah, exactly.
00:34:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah,
00:34:41
John Saunders
um ah you yeah
00:34:42
johngrimsmo
That's kind of like saying when lean is over. Lean is never over.
00:34:47
John Saunders
Right, or when you're like, i don't have anything left to learn.
00:34:49
John Saunders
yeah um Okay, the big topic, which I didn't mean to so say for the total end, but um it's the same thing I talked to you about eight months ago.
00:34:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah, totally, totally.
00:35:00
John Saunders
I really want to look at moving to one piece flow on some of our parts. Actually, maybe more than some of them, but um instead of just talking theoretically about it, it's like, hey, let's let's really talk about action items.
00:35:12
johngrimsmo
and
00:35:13
John Saunders
How can we prove this out?
00:35:14
johngrimsmo
what do you mean exactly by One Piece flow?
00:35:17
John Saunders
So... It's going from how we make parts in the horizontal, where we make a fixture that has, think our smallest fixture is four parts. Our biggest one does 32 at a time.
00:35:30
John Saunders
um And then everything is still two ops there. So overnight it runs both op 1 and op 2 on the sequential version of this part.
00:35:40
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:35:40
John Saunders
So you make 32 time. um And it's weird because kind of like you were saying to be this fight, everything is fine, everything is broken. Like, horizontal is a beast. Like, I'm not lying to you that it's been great for our company. We've made a lot of parts off of it. It's been wonderful.
00:35:56
John Saunders
But um it's the antithesis of, say, the Willan. The Willan is one piece flow.
00:36:01
John Saunders
It's automated, heavily automated, one piece flow. But if you want to make a part, and every that part has 11 different tools on it, you're doing 11 tool changes for every single part.
00:36:02
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:36:09
johngrimsmo
ye
00:36:10
John Saunders
um but there's some major advantages for quality control, for process control, for how how the machine handles the tool breaking, how you measure tool a life.
00:36:22
John Saunders
um But the biggest, the single biggest thing to this would be, could we build a system or implement a system um that doesn't require us to also have fixturing and work holding?
00:36:37
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:36:37
John Saunders
So it would be, so right now I'm not interested in like an AROA or Harmless HS Flex where you're buying 50 vices and you're clamping each piece of material in the vise um and loading them up.
00:36:54
John Saunders
I mean, that there's something that I love about that, except it's not what we're, no. What we wanna know is, can we walk up to a drawer or it a table rack that has, you know angle plates in it and you just lay in the ah material.
00:37:07
John Saunders
And so so you or I could reload this machine in a matter of seconds. There's no wrenches or tools involved. um And I have a call tomorrow with the folks from Lights Out Automation who had that really pretty rad IMT demo doing this with a UR with their, I don't know how much their software it is versus them just being an integrator and in building this with the existing like ur platform.
00:37:21
johngrimsmo
All
00:37:31
John Saunders
um And then they have a vice open close system that should allow us to do this.
00:37:37
johngrimsmo
right.
00:37:38
John Saunders
Like in some respects, this is not complicated or difficult
00:37:41
johngrimsmo
right
00:37:43
John Saunders
Yeah. And then let's pick a product like our top job. You would then load however many you want, 50 or 100 pieces in the rack. Excuse me. No real effort to that.
00:37:54
John Saunders
And then the machine just runs. It'll run those as long as you want it to.
00:37:56
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:37:58
John Saunders
Now, yes, you need to switch over to different part, but that's actually, for some of our parts, that won't require any changes.
00:38:05
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:38:06
John Saunders
no two No tooling changes, no work-holding changes. You'll load different material, but it'll be in the same rack style. So it's really... It's really, yes, it requires a human. It's not going to run two different parts overnight, but this is still, like,
Exploring Automation and Machine Upgrades
00:38:20
John Saunders
i love this.
00:38:20
johngrimsmo
yeah it feels um part shape slash material shape specific like i feel like a lot of the stuff that we do might not suit for that um that said i've seen guys with speedios and do the um like the spindle gripper kind of part loading that some of the knife makers are surprising me with how i'm like
00:38:29
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:38:33
John Saunders
For sure.
00:38:41
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:38:47
johngrimsmo
They're literally picking up a long, skinny, thin blade, like blade blank and gripping it just by the spine and doing doing the machining on it.
00:38:53
John Saunders
Okay. Oh, really...
00:38:55
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, that works? Like, that just seems like vib vibration central or, you know, it's not going to work.
00:38:59
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:39:03
johngrimsmo
um Anyway, yeah, kind of, exactly.
00:39:05
John Saunders
Like this? Like holding it? That seems crazy.
00:39:08
johngrimsmo
And then doing not all of the work, the bevels and things like that, but they're doing the profile and they're doing the pivot hole and the arc and all that stuff. And they're getting good results. And I was like, I just, I dismissed that from the beginning as as not going to work. So I haven't been thinking about it.
00:39:23
johngrimsmo
And then here's somebody else goes and does it.
00:39:23
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:39:24
johngrimsmo
And i was like, clearly I'm wrong.
00:39:28
John Saunders
Right.
00:39:28
johngrimsmo
So a system like you're talking about, um I've seen, you know, lots of videos on it. And basically you load up blocks of whatever size material you want. And the vices kind of has a range of clamping range, I guess.
00:39:41
johngrimsmo
And then it just does the thing.
00:39:44
John Saunders
Yep.
00:39:44
johngrimsmo
it
00:39:45
John Saunders
which for our a lot of our Modvice parts are relatively similar sized square shapes. So there we don't we aren't burdened with your organic curve type things.
00:39:54
johngrimsmo
Mm hmm.
00:39:57
John Saunders
And
00:39:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah, when your starting material is rectangular in shape or even round, depending on how you want to clamp it, um that does simplify things.
00:40:03
John Saunders
yeah. Yeah.
00:40:07
johngrimsmo
And then would like the HS Flex is kind of a pretty big boy, expensive, nice high end system.
00:40:16
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:18
johngrimsmo
versus like buying a more entry level machine. Not that ah a speedio is an entry level, but it's it's not a half a million dollar five access machine.
00:40:21
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:27
johngrimsmo
So say you got a speedio and a UR system and the thing like that, is that kind of on the table of what you're thinking or?
00:40:33
John Saunders
yeah Well, so a lot of these parts I realize now that you don't want them on a five axis. There's no reason to be on a five axis. If the robot can flip it between Op1 and Op2 and your tolerance.
00:40:44
johngrimsmo
true
00:40:45
John Saunders
So the key thing is though, your tolerances allow that. like Because the robot nest may not always clamp in Op2 perfectly, but I think we can work around that. In fact, I know we can because of some of the workflows we already have on the horizontal.
00:40:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:40:59
John Saunders
And so, yeah, it's honest because but before in January, i was like, could we get one system like the Hermla that could do everything? You could do all these parts um for for reasons that are both good, but also bad.
00:41:12
John Saunders
You're then putting all your eggs in one basket, one machine.
00:41:14
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I'm laughing because that's, I think back to us 10 years ago, the noob is, ah you know, I want one machine, idu one investment, your VM3.
00:41:25
John Saunders
ye raise Right. Right.
00:41:25
johngrimsmo
I want one machine that's going to do everything.
00:41:28
John Saunders
right
00:41:28
johngrimsmo
And then I'm good.
00:41:29
johngrimsmo
And here we are 10 years later with many machines.
00:41:30
John Saunders
you're Your Dura Vertical did do everything.
00:41:34
johngrimsmo
Exactly. Or are the Nakamura lathe. um
00:41:37
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:41:37
johngrimsmo
You know, I'm going to make everything with that.
00:41:38
John Saunders
Oh my gosh.
00:41:38
John Saunders
Right.
00:41:39
johngrimsmo
And then we get the Swiss and then we have the Willemann and then OK, OK, there's there's not one size fits all for anything.
00:41:45
John Saunders
Yeah. Well, so it's a great question. I think some of the parts, the puck chuck parts do need to be or should be done on a five axis. And that's a question where would we look for that?
00:41:56
John Saunders
And certainly Herm was in the cards there. And they have their RS, I can't remember. I think it's RS05 is frankly the same same system where a robot grabs material out of a drawer, loads it, can flip it.
00:42:11
John Saunders
like rock and roll thing is sweet. Metal Quest, the fan that brought people in Nebraska, they have an Idaho facility now that has this system and they're loving it, which is also really cool to hear.
00:42:23
John Saunders
um I think especially again, because ah i told you the point isn't to just sit here and talk. It's the point is to figure out how to do this. I think the better action plan is like, no, let's put this on three axis.
00:42:35
John Saunders
We have a bunch of three accesses.
00:42:39
John Saunders
And if Haas works great, if there needs to be different machine. Like one of my concerns is caus like, okay, this is gonna run every night overnight. Like what's the chip flushing and cool tech size look like?
00:42:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:42:51
John Saunders
So I'm not as worried about what brand we, and um but i' I'm much more impressionable to what is right fit. But I think, I think if I like this, you could see something where it's actually, okay, so solve so many problems, John.
00:43:07
John Saunders
You have a aluminum mod vise setup machine, like, you know, machine, meaning robot plus spindle type setup.
00:43:14
johngrimsmo
ye
00:43:14
John Saunders
You one for steel. This, you have one for our insert bars, which is a little bit different material and workflow that might have a fourth on it. um and then you maybe have a five axis for the public like then all of a sudden you have four automated machines um i'm just starting to i've been sitting on this for about four days seriously like like parts i even like actually really funny uh i 3d printed one of our little vices that we use and then i scaled the jaws so they actually they actually have friction fit and it lets me i just love being a visual person it lets me literally
00:43:33
johngrimsmo
Right, all right.
00:43:42
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:43:47
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:43:49
John Saunders
And I printed extra stock to think about, well, do you want to buy this with extra stock down here? do you want to buy it with extra stock here? Because some of this ties back into what material sizes can you buy?
00:43:56
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:44:00
John Saunders
And where are you having that extra material?
00:44:01
johngrimsmo
sure
00:44:03
John Saunders
Can you have rigidity holding the part like this on a five? Yeah.
00:44:06
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah. I love it.
00:44:10
johngrimsmo
I mean, what comes to my mind, like our machine, the Speedio S500, the S500 is the three axis.
00:44:13
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:44:16
johngrimsmo
You can put a fourth on it. The U500 is the five axis version with the same footprint.
00:44:19
John Saunders
yeah
00:44:22
John Saunders
Yes.
00:44:23
johngrimsmo
And so, you know, dream scenario, you get three three axis and one four axis and they're all the same size machine and like line them all up and put the same robot on each one and
00:44:23
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:44:33
John Saunders
Continuity control small footprint value certainly speaks, is talking turkey is the right thing.
00:44:36
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:44:39
John Saunders
I, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if I have enough conviction yet. mean, we own a 30 taper. i've used it before. a Well, you do real work with your speed.
00:44:51
John Saunders
You're right.
00:44:51
johngrimsmo
um We do a lot of hard milling, but I wouldn't say a lot of horsepower stuff.
00:44:56
John Saunders
Yeah. We're not a big horsepower either. don't think at least. Okay.
00:45:00
John Saunders
ah guess I got lot more.
00:45:00
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:02
John Saunders
the there's There are probably many machine tools that will work. I'm more curious about what's the automation workflow.
00:45:07
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:08
John Saunders
And im I'm trying to go and do it with a healthy healthy attitude of like, look, this system is going to shut, break, that break have hiccups. Like it's, yeah, it's not going load apart at 2 a.m.
00:45:14
johngrimsmo
How do you recover? Yep.
00:45:18
John Saunders
correctly one day. That's okay.
00:45:20
johngrimsmo
Yeah. yeah
00:45:20
John Saunders
I think.
00:45:21
johngrimsmo
What's the failure look like?
00:45:22
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:45:23
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:45:24
John Saunders
Yeah, but the truth is that yes, the horizontal runs every day for a long time. It's also a pain in the butt to expand capacity on it with offsets, fixtures, probing, broken tool sets shuts the whole thing down for the night.
00:45:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:36
John Saunders
Whereas this could be, it gives you some redundancy, spindles are cheaper if you need to replace one.
00:45:41
John Saunders
um I just really, well, i'm I'm not here to have you pat me on the back. Tell me where I'm being a fool, I guess, or what you what don't you like about this?
00:45:41
johngrimsmo
Yep. yep
00:45:50
johngrimsmo
I like this. I mean, we've got a similar scenario. We've got our Mori, which is thankfully like paid off, you know but but it doesn't run that much.
00:45:57
John Saunders
yeah
00:45:59
johngrimsmo
you know We might get a few hours a day um consistently on it. And we have our Speedio, which runs a bit more. It's automated. I wish we ran it a lot more. um There's a couple of reasons we we don't.
00:46:10
johngrimsmo
But like I've definitely thought about selling the Mori and getting two robot-fed Speedios in its footprint.
00:46:15
John Saunders
is that right oh
00:46:18
johngrimsmo
Um, yep. but And whether it's like a front loading, you are system or something like that. Um, I've, I've spent a lot of time, so I've got it all drawn up.
00:46:23
John Saunders
yeah
00:46:25
johngrimsmo
I've got, I've been thinking about that for years.
00:46:26
John Saunders
Well, remember we're talking about robot loading the orange palace with that with the Dura vertical, yeah.
00:46:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah. And, and even loading small pallets onto a speedio and a, you are, you are could easily lift up as a very small pallet and like, well, we just don't need it right now.
00:46:36
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:46:44
John Saunders
Yeah, totally.
00:46:45
johngrimsmo
However,
00:46:46
John Saunders
Totally.
00:46:47
johngrimsmo
You know, dream scenario, okay, we gotta scale up, we gotta buy some machines, we gotta something. That is near the top of my list. Would I get another, I'd love not another Eroa Kern setup and you know, at some point, but I wouldn't get like 10 of them because the speedy accommodation is just so packs a big punch, you know?
00:46:54
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:46:59
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:47:05
John Saunders
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, I'll let know learned next week.
00:47:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:47:12
John Saunders
Wait for today.
00:47:14
johngrimsmo
I'm just aligning a check.
00:47:17
John Saunders
I should. Oh, no, we aren't you waiting for the, are you patiently waiting for the eBay purchase to arrive?
00:47:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I purchased it an hour ago. like It could take two weeks to get here.
00:47:27
John Saunders
You can't. Oh, it's safe.
00:47:30
John Saunders
I'm sorry.
00:47:30
johngrimsmo
So I need a solution like now.
00:47:32
John Saunders
Yeah, we're...
00:47:32
johngrimsmo
I'll get it as close as I can, and then and then I'll redo it once that comes in, which is not not difficult.
00:47:36
John Saunders
Okay. Got
00:47:38
johngrimsmo
but What are you up to?
00:47:40
John Saunders
Got it. Um...
00:47:48
John Saunders
Go out, to be honest, I'm going out the horizontal, ironic, broker tool and, uh, Garrett had left early today. So i'm going to go fix that tool, rerun that. And then we are ah bane of my existence. We have fixture for Stim Torx that don't love and it's acting up a little on me. And, um, so I'm finishing some parts that are, that are fine, but it's requiring a lot of handholding and and option stops to make sure we're okay.
00:48:13
John Saunders
Uh, and then I really need to to reevaluate that thing.
00:48:15
johngrimsmo
Yeah, you got to sit down with yourself and have this manufacturing meeting.
00:48:18
John Saunders
oh um That's actually really funny. Yes. Yes. That's funny. Yeah. ah Yeah. No, it's all good.
00:48:29
johngrimsmo
right, sounds good.
00:48:30
John Saunders
Cool. See you next week.
00:48:31
johngrimsmo
All right, you.