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#415 Kern crashed
2.9k Plays7 days ago
TOPICS:
- Kern crashed
- VM3 coolant actually went bad
- Surface grinding with Robin Renzetti
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Podcast Overview
00:00:01
johngrimsmo
Good morning and welcome to the Business of Machining, episode 415. John grimo
00:00:06
John Saunders
My name is John Totters.
00:00:08
johngrimsmo
And this is your your weekly dose of manufacturing. I know this podcast is listened by to by many, many machinists all around the world. And lately, I've heard from a few that are like, I love listening to the podcast. And it's just John and I ranting about our lives and business and stuff. So I really appreciate that people want to tune in every week and hear what's up.
00:00:30
johngrimsmo
And as we've said many times, this is a therapy session between the two of us.
00:00:30
John Saunders
Yes.
00:00:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:00:35
John Saunders
Exactly.
00:00:35
johngrimsmo
You know, kind lay it on the table and work out problems and, ah you know, offer advice when we can. But sometimes just talking about it ah helps.
00:00:43
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:00:47
John Saunders
Yeah, agreed.
00:00:48
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:00:49
John Saunders
Yep.
00:00:49
johngrimsmo
And we can learn
John's Personal Story and Embracing Individuality
00:00:50
johngrimsmo
from each other. And that's what's really fun about this, too. And your excitement and nerdiness, ah you know, rubs off on me and hopefully the same.
00:00:59
John Saunders
My Yvonne, my wife ran into my old sixth grade math teacher that I haven't even really seen in whatever that would be 30 some years.
00:01:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:01:11
John Saunders
And she was, I remember her as a great teacher and somebody that went out of her way to be a great person in my life at that time, like ah just a good teacher.
00:01:19
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:01:20
John Saunders
And it's funny now to hear um her the teacher talk to Yvonne and be like, oh yeah, John was always asking questions. It's like, yeah, I, you know, like you and I were talking to write for five seconds before he record.
00:01:34
John Saunders
Like I, I, I am probably to a fault to talkative sometimes inquisitive, blah, blah, blah, but like, don't know what you know.
00:01:41
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:01:41
John Saunders
Okay. So yeah.
00:01:42
johngrimsmo
That's what it is.
00:01:44
John Saunders
Right.
00:01:46
johngrimsmo
That's funny.
00:01:48
John Saunders
didn't even know how, why I brought that up. Um, oh yeah. We took therapy talking exactly inquisitive.
00:01:52
johngrimsmo
Exactly.
00:01:52
John Saunders
Right. Yeah.
00:01:53
johngrimsmo
Yep. And that's okay.
00:01:54
John Saunders
so
00:01:55
johngrimsmo
That's what makes you who you are. don't Don't dim your shine or whatever that's called.
00:02:00
John Saunders
Yeah. Right.
00:02:01
johngrimsmo
Brightness, you know.
00:02:03
John Saunders
I like the one they, uh, posted ahead of it. Jane, my daughter's when she used to take dance lessons. It's like, don't let your ice cream, don't let your ice cream melt while you're staring at somebody else's sprinkles or something.
00:02:15
johngrimsmo
OK.
00:02:15
John Saunders
It's like, or like run your own race.
00:02:16
johngrimsmo
Yeah,
00:02:18
John Saunders
It's like, you know, your own thing. It's all good.
00:02:20
johngrimsmo
yeah exactly.
00:02:21
John Saunders
Um, I'm not going to be everyone's best friend, but, uh, yeah.
00:02:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:02:26
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:02:27
johngrimsmo
So how
00:02:27
John Saunders
Uh,
Machine Crash Troubleshooting
00:02:28
johngrimsmo
are you?
00:02:30
John Saunders
I am actually good other than since basically we last talked, I have been in coolant purgatory, but we'll come, let's come back to here later.
00:02:39
johngrimsmo
Interesting. Okay.
00:02:42
John Saunders
We'll get dirty then.
00:02:43
johngrimsmo
Well, my... and don't know how you can explain it.
00:02:46
John Saunders
How are you?
00:02:47
johngrimsmo
I'm um not great today.
00:02:49
John Saunders
Okay.
00:02:50
johngrimsmo
Current crashed last night.
00:02:52
John Saunders
Okay.
00:02:53
johngrimsmo
And so I come in today and Angelo kind of gives me the rundown and he's like, not exactly sure what happened, but we came in this morning and the tool holder had hit the fixture and like a Z crash.
00:03:06
johngrimsmo
Don't really know what happened. It's run this program before.
00:03:10
John Saunders
Yeah, right
00:03:11
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so I've spent my morning trying to logic my way through the code, trying to figure out what on earth is actually happening. And I did come to the conclusion um ah of like understanding what is happening, not necessarily why, but I understand what is happening.
00:03:26
John Saunders
yeah
00:03:28
johngrimsmo
So when we make our all three of our blades, but in this case, our Rask blade,
00:03:34
John Saunders
time
00:03:35
johngrimsmo
we engrave the serial number onto it um automatically, and it automatically counts up. And it machines every digit um you know sequentially with a whole series of macros that I wrote and have been using for many, many years.
00:03:48
johngrimsmo
For pretty much 10 years, I've used this type of logic. an Auto engrave a four-digit serial number um on the blade.
00:03:51
John Saunders
Yep. yep
00:03:57
johngrimsmo
And this happens to be on the Kern. And the logic, how do I explain this? I updated bunch of the code last Friday, like four five days ago or whatever, and we've run many blades since then, like like more than one, less than 10.
00:04:17
johngrimsmo
And then it crashes on this one. And yesterday, engraved one of these bla blades just fine. And then the very next blade, it crashed on. And i it took me a long time to figure out why.
00:04:29
johngrimsmo
And the error in my macro code happens to be when the fourth digit is a nine, it'll crash. It homes the B and the C, so it puts the tombstone up, then it puts the tool home.
00:04:44
johngrimsmo
And then when it comes back to do the next engraving, it doesn't orient the B and the c
00:04:48
John Saunders
ah Oh.
00:04:50
johngrimsmo
So it just, the fixture was in the way and the B axis was in the wrong position.
00:04:50
John Saunders
Ugh.
00:04:54
johngrimsmo
And so it crashed the, um you know, the Riga fix holders have like the skinny neck and then the flange.
00:05:01
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:05:02
johngrimsmo
It hit the flange onto a fixture, straight Z crash at rapid speed with about five inches of distance, like acceleration with the spindle off, which is kind of,
00:05:04
John Saunders
OK.
00:05:10
John Saunders
To accelerate, yeah
00:05:15
johngrimsmo
also not great, but worst case.
00:05:17
John Saunders
yeah.
00:05:18
johngrimsmo
If the spindle's spinning, then your bearings are at least averaging out, and it's, you know, it's a bit better than a static Z hit. Um, so I'm kind of pissed about that.
00:05:30
johngrimsmo
Uh, But the spindle rotates fine, doesn't have lobes in it. um We did a spin did a spindle warmup, takes it up to, I think, 42,000 RPM.
00:05:35
John Saunders
Yeah. Oh.
00:05:39
johngrimsmo
um Sounds okay. um Starting to check run out. There's no run out on the tool. We put a seven-inch test bar in there. It's got just a few tenths of run out at the very, very bottom.
00:05:50
johngrimsmo
Almost no run out at the top. And with that, you can also check, is it called Nod? Like,
00:05:56
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:05:56
johngrimsmo
tilt and nod, like front to back accuracy if you sweep up and down, and then you hit the side of it and you sweep up and down. And I'm between 0 and 4 tenths straightness across that 7 inches.
00:06:07
John Saunders
Four 10,000 of an inch, which is do what would these numbers?
00:06:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:06:11
John Saunders
First off to rewind. I'm sorry, John, that sucks.
00:06:14
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:06:15
John Saunders
You're, you're, you're taking this like a chip.
00:06:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah, um I've had a few hours to calm down, but ah was definitely buzzing around.
00:06:19
John Saunders
Okay. I'm sorry.
00:06:22
johngrimsmo
I'm like, I just, ah I don't like this.
00:06:26
John Saunders
yeah um what those numbers though help me understand two tenths tir four tenths they seem high but
00:06:31
johngrimsmo
Like, yeah, there there is a spec. um Like, Curran has a spec, and I have results from before when I've done this. I haven't looked at them yet, but I can i can compare.
00:06:43
johngrimsmo
But I mean, considering most of my tools are not that length, this is like two or three times longer than any of my tools.
00:06:48
John Saunders
yeah
00:06:49
johngrimsmo
It's like an extreme, right? um I think it's fine. Like, it's maybe not perfect, but it's, for the most part, the machine is mechanically still square, um which is good.
00:07:00
John Saunders
And so to to be clear to you, reset, you could hit reset or whatever it takes, I use off.
00:07:03
johngrimsmo
for
00:07:04
John Saunders
And then you could just jog and use the machine.
00:07:06
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:07:07
John Saunders
That's great.
00:07:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah, i think I think it bounced off of the fixture because when we came in, there was clearance.
00:07:08
John Saunders
The one time.
00:07:13
johngrimsmo
So I don't know if there's an auto back off feature after a crash.
00:07:17
John Saunders
but Interesting. interesting
00:07:17
johngrimsmo
I think, I forget. It depends too if, yeah.
00:07:20
John Saunders
I assume there's some hide and hide like Z axis overload alarm of or something similar.
00:07:25
johngrimsmo
There is for sure. Yeah. And it's pretty sensitive because I've certainly bumped it a couple of times before, usually when the B axis is tilted to the side.
00:07:26
John Saunders
That's what through. Yeah.
00:07:33
johngrimsmo
So in that case, the B or the C kind of releases um when the machine overloads and he stops and then it goes kind of floppy and moves itself out of the way a little bit.
00:07:44
johngrimsmo
So it's not like under load for 12 hours while you're sleeping.
00:07:46
John Saunders
Yeah, right, right.
00:07:48
johngrimsmo
And then you come into a machine that's compressed and under load. That's not fun. Yeah. But yeah, so this spindle, which happens to be spindle number three for this machine, um has about 5,000 hours on it since we put it in whenever we did that last last summer.
00:08:01
John Saunders
Oh, yeah.
00:08:08
johngrimsmo
I can't remember. um So it's 5,000 hours in, which is something. Yeah.
00:08:14
John Saunders
Just crazy numbers, Sean.
00:08:15
johngrimsmo
du Yeah, thank
00:08:15
John Saunders
I mean, good for you. like
00:08:19
johngrimsmo
I even though it sounds good, there's no run out, everything's good. I would not be surprised if we've now shortened the life of the spindle like significantly. And the temperature of the spindle bearings, which there's sensors inside, will start to tell us that.
00:08:34
John Saunders
yeah
00:08:34
johngrimsmo
So Curran suggested I look at the temperature and I was like, oh, yeah, i forgot about that.
00:08:38
johngrimsmo
OK, I'll do that later. um Last thing we have to do is run kinematic calibration. just to reorient anything that got jostled. And then ah it logs the result of all of that. So I can compare to previous results. Usually it's nothing, like a 10th, like a few microns here and there.
00:09:00
johngrimsmo
So
Coolant Maintenance Challenges
00:09:01
johngrimsmo
we'll see if this one. The big thing is, so I'm like, OK, everything kind of works. Let me run and single block through my engraving code so I can start to figure out where it failed, why it failed, things like that. So i ah in the program, I program the coolant to be off so I can just watch it.
00:09:18
johngrimsmo
And then I turn the RPM down just it's not singing at 30,000 RPM while I'm air cutting and watching this.
00:09:24
John Saunders
yeah
00:09:24
johngrimsmo
And I look at it as it's cutting and it's it's about 100,000 above the part. And I'm like, hold on, that's that's a big distance. like 100 thou above where it's supposed to be cutting oh man um so then angelo suggested we'll touch off that tool again we'll write off we'll write the before and after measurements and it's 95 thou um different than it was this is the holder that was in the spindle um when it crashed but
00:09:37
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:09:43
John Saunders
Sure.
00:09:50
John Saunders
This is a tool that wasn't involved in the crash.
00:10:00
johngrimsmo
I don't know, there's a huge huge variation somewhere. So we're...
00:10:04
John Saunders
But it's not like this end mill just got pushed hundred thousand into the holder.
00:10:06
johngrimsmo
Correct. Yeah, endmill didn't get hit at all.
00:10:07
John Saunders
You there. Okay.
00:10:09
johngrimsmo
The holder body got hit.
00:10:10
John Saunders
Oh shoot, John.
00:10:12
johngrimsmo
So we're like, okay, one of two things. Either the servos skipped by 93 thou. um you like You lost position by that much. i don't know if you can do that with glass scales. Yeah.
00:10:22
John Saunders
It seems way, the few crashes I've had, the numbers are that.
00:10:26
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:10:27
John Saunders
tenth of that
00:10:28
johngrimsmo
Or there is a mechanical shift. Something moved by 93 thou. And then I touched off another tool that wasn't involved in the crash, and I got literally the exact same result plus 10 millionths.
00:10:40
johngrimsmo
um So it's it's a consistent sign, yeah.
00:10:42
John Saunders
That's a good sign. And you're laser is on the your laser is bolted to the affected totally toilet toilet bowls, the word I prefer.
00:10:47
johngrimsmo
The turntable, yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:10:51
John Saunders
That's actually ah term William came up with when we were at Kern, which I think is very hilarious.
00:10:56
johngrimsmo
I like that. I like that.
00:10:58
John Saunders
Sorry. So
00:11:00
johngrimsmo
um
00:11:01
John Saunders
so
00:11:02
johngrimsmo
but So yeah, either something physically moved by 100,000 or the offset's just wrong and I can reset it and we're good to go. I don't know yet.
00:11:12
John Saunders
gee okay there's actually i'm glad i'm asking these questions i don't know the answer hsk tooling the gauge line is the flange that contacts the spindle so you could you could approximate gauge length with something like caliper it's not going to be perfect but within 10 thou check the gauge length for sure the tool yes and
00:11:23
johngrimsmo
The spindle. Yep.
00:11:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah, a yeah, yeah. Of the tool?
00:11:36
johngrimsmo
Eh. I checked that second tool, and it's the same result.
00:11:39
John Saunders
Yeah, that's but there's some things, some things are right here. Or just try doing the engraving with a small end mill just to see like what happens. Does it come in? Because if your machine, your whole Z axis, like let's say it's bolted to like the Willem and the B and z or whatever you call it, is there's just two plates that are bolted together.
00:11:56
John Saunders
So they will wholly shift mechanically.
00:11:58
johngrimsmo
No, the Williman is pinned into place. I'm pretty sure because I had it off.
00:12:02
John Saunders
Maybe it's shear pin then.
00:12:04
johngrimsmo
um
00:12:05
John Saunders
Okay.
00:12:06
johngrimsmo
But to your point, yeah.
00:12:06
John Saunders
There's two sliding surfaces. I guess they're meant to actually move when you have a, especially a hard crash.
00:12:11
johngrimsmo
And now that I think about it, um I used to have this on Artornos. And I think the the current is the same way. So you got your servo motor. and then you have the um lovejoy coupling or whatever however they do it and it's just if if my finger is the shaft of the motor and the coupling wraps around you know my finger and it's just friction fit like you clamp it but it could maybe slip maybe the crash shifted a lovejoy connector or whatever um no it no it didn't check out fine it checked out the exact same um difference
00:12:31
John Saunders
Okay. Oh,
00:12:36
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:12:42
John Saunders
But that wouldn't make sense why the other tool gate checked out fine.
00:12:50
John Saunders
Oh, I misunderstood.
00:12:51
johngrimsmo
Okay. Yeah. Okay.
00:12:52
John Saunders
oh I'm sorry.
00:12:53
John Saunders
Forget what I said about gauge line check. you're yo You do have a 90,000 problem.
00:12:53
johngrimsmo
but Meaning, meaning every tool would measure 90,000 wrong.
00:12:59
John Saunders
Oh, crud.
00:12:59
johngrimsmo
Yeah. So maybe it is just like I shifted one of the a ball screw distance thingies.
00:13:08
John Saunders
Sorry, I'm interrupting you. I'm so frustrated and fed up with this weather here.
00:13:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:13:11
John Saunders
This is like day eight of rain.
00:13:12
johngrimsmo
I hear it.
00:13:13
John Saunders
It is biblical right now outside. Went from nothing to just like crazy, crazy rain. And it's frustrating.
00:13:21
johngrimsmo
I was like, what is that static?
00:13:22
John Saunders
like Like flooded our parking lot three days ago. We were out there power washing and scrubbing it because it's like dirt from the farm field across.
00:13:25
johngrimsmo
Oh, man.
00:13:28
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:13:28
John Saunders
it's like And then now it's just insane. So i sorry for the background noise of the rain, folks.
00:13:32
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it actually sounds like static, but it's just rain.
00:13:34
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:13:35
johngrimsmo
Wow. if
00:13:37
John Saunders
I'm mute myself and you can keep talking about the Kern here.
00:13:39
johngrimsmo
No, I mean, you're good. It's fine. I don't know what else to add to the conversation. Yeah.
00:13:45
John Saunders
Well, our next steps, or if you want to talk about it, I mean, is it, you're going to do more, are you going to do more work? Are you to have Kern come in?
00:13:52
johngrimsmo
Yeah, i've I've texted with Kern a little bit. um They're helpful, but also everybody's on call somewhere else they're traveling. So yeah, I've still got to do kinematic.
00:14:03
johngrimsmo
And then he said, also take the touch probe and touch off your Z0 pretty much, the face of the Auroa palette, just to see if that shifted too. um you know Worst case, I don't know if kinematic is going to reverse this or if I have to touch off all my offsets again and just that that's OK, like start over.
00:14:24
johngrimsmo
um It's a good question.
00:14:25
John Saunders
Can you, how hard is it to put eyes on the Z axis servo and Lovejoy coupler, all that?
00:14:31
johngrimsmo
I think I can see it from the top of the machine. and It might be covered by a big bracket thingy. um i don't know if that would tell you anything, really.
00:14:41
John Saunders
I would, what I wouldn't do is like try to comp everything by 93,000 and just keep going. Like that's just seems something.
00:14:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:49
John Saunders
me ah we've unfortunately had a few crashes and the the most movement we've seen is less than that, which makes me think you're onto something like did a mechanical thing slip in a good way.
00:15:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Like something slipped. Yeah, exactly.
00:15:04
John Saunders
Like, I mean, it's, yeah certain things have to give, like
00:15:05
johngrimsmo
It's like you were talking with the ST 20 a long time ago. Um, it, it, the, the, what the sub turret, like it's, it's meant to move.
00:15:13
John Saunders
the whole, no, the whole turret is just on a, it's just two flat pieces of metal that are bolted together like a four jaw chuck and um something has to give.
00:15:13
johngrimsmo
Hmm. No way.
00:15:20
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Yeah. But in a good way, like let it slip as opposed to break everything.
00:15:25
John Saunders
Yep, yeah, crack the casting.
00:15:26
johngrimsmo
Um, yeah. So maybe that is what happened. And I hadn't really considered that yet, um, before this talk. So, but yeah, I don't want to make the wrong assumption. i don't want to make the wrong call, make everything worse.
00:15:39
johngrimsmo
Um, but we'll see.
00:15:40
John Saunders
Right.
00:15:41
johngrimsmo
I'm I've, I've calmed down and, uh,
00:15:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah, so it's like, i have to solve this source of the problem first. um And then have to fix the machine, two separate things. um
00:15:56
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:56
johngrimsmo
The other indicator that something was weird is you know, when the coolant's flowing and we have pallets and everything's just running, like you don't really watch the programs like we used to back in the day and stare stare at every every machining tool path. It just kind of runs now.
00:16:13
John Saunders
yeah
00:16:13
johngrimsmo
um And especially once I proved this new posted engraving code, I was like, okay, it works. So we're just running it. But it started to engrave, like say engraves the word rask, it engraves it twice.
00:16:24
johngrimsmo
It engraves it once. And then for some reason, the logic is looping back and engraving it again. And it shouldn't do that. So today i was able to single block through that program, even though it was 93,000 above the part um and be like, okay, they're an engraved Rask.
00:16:41
johngrimsmo
And right before it finishes, I like single blocked and go down and, and, On Heidenhine, instead of ah like go to whatever, it does a call label. And then you have label like in brackets, like one, two, three, four, whatever.
00:16:55
johngrimsmo
You can do text labels too. So you can jump. It's like a go to command, but you can jump to a different label.
00:16:58
John Saunders
Okay. Okay.
00:16:59
johngrimsmo
And then at the end, you can write label zero, which rewinds you back to your call and then goes forward. um So for some reason, that label zero is rewinding to the wrong part of the code, like a ah different label call.
00:17:10
John Saunders
Oh.
00:17:14
johngrimsmo
And I got to dig into that because I don't understand why. But it's engraving the word RASC twice. It's engraving the word Arturbeel34 twice. And it's engraving each digit twice. Like three, eight, nine, seven, or nine at the end.
00:17:27
johngrimsmo
And it's the second re-engrave of the fourth nine. Yeah.
00:17:32
John Saunders
Oh, the first one is okay.
00:17:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:17:35
John Saunders
um my God. So the knife that crashed even has the fourth nine on it.
00:17:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah, exactly. But it has the first iteration of that fourth nine, but not the redo because it crashed in that.
00:17:39
John Saunders
Oh, no, this.
00:17:46
johngrimsmo
And because the fourth nine is at the end of my logic, it puts a BC home, Z home, M5 and M9, cool enough spindle off, and then the label zero and that rewinds and it wants to engrave the fourth nine again, but everything's off.
00:17:59
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:18:06
johngrimsmo
So the spindle's off, BC's home.
00:18:07
John Saunders
a
00:18:07
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, what?
00:18:08
John Saunders
Right.
00:18:09
johngrimsmo
Okay, so it would have worked fine, the logic in the program, if it didn't do this recutting thing.
00:18:14
John Saunders
Right. we
00:18:16
johngrimsmo
So it's like such a weird logical scenario that I couldn't have caught, like, unless I went through every line of code and like, it's tough.
00:18:16
John Saunders
What?
00:18:26
John Saunders
But, and this is where I have to, like, I'm really sorry, John, this sucks. Um, you are so amazing at programming these hand edits and you've gotten, you've done so well with it, but as your friend, it scares the crap out of me.
00:18:43
johngrimsmo
Absolutely. Here we are.
00:18:44
John Saunders
And I don't know what my i don't want what my and don't know what my goal is.
00:18:46
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:18:47
John Saunders
Like, am I sitting here trying to convince you to stop doing it? I don't think I can do that to you, but I also, John, this is, you know, ah, right?
00:18:50
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:18:56
johngrimsmo
Yep. I know.
00:18:57
John Saunders
I'm sitting here thinking like, could you have the,
00:18:57
johngrimsmo
I know.
00:19:01
John Saunders
Could you, could you have a set of code, like the positioning moves and the logic to pick which character, actually way that Kuma works. And then when you want to engrave an A, it calls a sub program that's a posted fusion code that you're never hand editing.
00:19:16
John Saunders
so you have this parent that just calls subs for the characters. It makes sense.
00:19:19
johngrimsmo
Which is basically how I'm doing it. i'm I'm calling fusion posted letters, but it's all the linking moves and all the logic to be like, if the fourth digit is a nine, go to this level, like jump to this level of the code.
00:19:22
John Saunders
Okay. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. Damn.
00:19:34
John Saunders
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:36
johngrimsmo
And yeah.
00:19:38
John Saunders
Was it doing the double engraving for years?
00:19:41
johngrimsmo
No, only since last week when I changed a bunch of stuff. But I tested it and I made a couple and I made a bunch of blades and I'm like, this works great.
00:19:48
John Saunders
I know. i know.
00:19:51
johngrimsmo
So yeah, it's really sucky. um So I've got some work to do for sure. It seems mechanically okay.
00:19:59
John Saunders
yeah
00:20:00
johngrimsmo
as i'm ah I'm less scared now that I've done a couple tests and I'm like, it's not good for the spindle, obviously. The spindle is... but probably just ah aged about two years.
00:20:11
John Saunders
You know, you got to figure out 90,000, John.
00:20:11
johngrimsmo
Maybe not quite that much, but, um,
00:20:17
johngrimsmo
Oh, for sure.
00:20:18
John Saunders
mean, cause if you have to shift, I'm thinking back to when Kern was, when we were there last summer and they showed us that Z monolithic or, uh, what would you call it? Um,
00:20:30
johngrimsmo
It's been little housing.
00:20:30
John Saunders
Billet. Yeah. Like I built spindle housing, if you will.
00:20:33
johngrimsmo
Yep.
00:20:33
John Saunders
And that bolts to something.
00:20:35
John Saunders
I'm wondering if that, if that slipped though, I gotta think that that's a technician repair and not a DIY.
00:20:35
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:20:42
johngrimsmo
If it is mechanical like that, if it's the ball screw slipped on the coupling to the motor, or on the other end, the ball screw to spindle...
00:20:46
John Saunders
Yeah. Right. Right.
00:20:50
johngrimsmo
wait... one of the sides, whatever. um Then maybe that's... because on our Tornos, this used to happen. We would lose exposition, and it would go out by like a lot. we're like, what the heck?
00:21:04
johngrimsmo
And it turns out this Lovejoy was just not tight enough. And we we were reaching the slip point.
00:21:07
John Saunders
Right.
00:21:10
johngrimsmo
I think chips were packing up somewhere.
00:21:10
John Saunders
Got it.
00:21:11
johngrimsmo
So it was overloading the torque of this slip connection. And so the service guy came in and he was like, oh yeah, you just got to tighten these up a little bit. I'm like, okay, how tight do you make them? And he goes, eh, you just kind of, you get a feel for it.
00:21:23
johngrimsmo
I'm like, no, bro. Like, no, I don't, I don't like that.
00:21:24
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:21:27
johngrimsmo
You don't figure it out. I'm like, what? No. Yeah.
00:21:30
John Saunders
If the machine... um I'm not familiar with machines that have, makes sense. So I'm not saying they don't, I'm just not familiar with like machines that will intentionally make move after they've crashed, just because once it crashes, it's usually just like for, well, yeah, like ESOP has like a safety code behind, like it cannot,
00:21:43
johngrimsmo
Mm, East Op
00:21:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:50
John Saunders
physically can't move motors because it could hurt somebody or so whatever.
00:21:52
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:21:53
John Saunders
So ah guess if it messed up with that love joy, that coupler, and then it tried to back off and it obviously didn't back off as far as it thinks, that could be a great outcome because that could corroborate what you're saying.
00:22:03
johngrimsmo
Yeah, interesting.
00:22:04
John Saunders
I also worry though, because and don't know what the pitch on those ball screws is, but 93 thou is a fair amount of rotation on a ball screw. And, um, the, the times we've had machines crashed or you stopped, they stopped real quick.
00:22:17
johngrimsmo
Yeah, for sure.
00:22:17
John Saunders
Like they're, they don't like, they don't move another 50 80 thou in any direction.
00:22:23
johngrimsmo
say
00:22:27
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I know.
00:22:27
John Saunders
That's it. That tell you two, one or two weeks ago, not like horizontal face rubbing crash. thought I did.
00:22:36
johngrimsmo
Maybe.
00:22:36
John Saunders
um ah kind of, I may have like casually glossed over it. It was with the scallop. I think I did the scallop tool, but the spiral tool path and how it went into the hole.
00:22:44
johngrimsmo
Okay, yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, you did say that.
00:22:46
John Saunders
Yeah. um And it went into hole that perfectly lined up and it was so hard to see in cam because the tool is like 2,000 wide and it luckily just face rubbed collet.
00:22:49
johngrimsmo
one
00:22:56
John Saunders
So the machine didn't even alarm. I just, I saw sparks real quick and yeah.
00:23:01
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:23:03
John Saunders
yeah Another one of those like, come on. Yeah. But I'm sorry.
00:23:10
johngrimsmo
yep so that's where I'm at yeah we're good
00:23:13
John Saunders
Okay. Well, you still want to talk today? don I don't feel like if you want to go play detective, I think that's understandably more important.
00:23:19
johngrimsmo
Yeah, that's my next step. Yep, yep.
00:23:22
John Saunders
key Let's keep it short then.
00:23:23
johngrimsmo
Yeah, sure. I got some other things too. What got?
00:23:27
John Saunders
um ah Coincidentally, somebody asked me randomly to look at a Heidenhain training video type of thing. And I'm not, I know nothing about Heidenhain, but they just wanted my input.
00:23:37
John Saunders
And I'll tell you man, every time I hear about Heidenhain, I'm like, God, this is just like so much better than...
Coolant Management Strategies: What's Best?
00:23:43
johngrimsmo
It's pretty awesome. so
00:23:44
John Saunders
Yeah. And the one thing I saw was like, oh yeah, on these, they don't call them offsets. They call them some, what?
00:23:49
johngrimsmo
Presets. Preset, isn't it?
00:23:51
John Saunders
Presets. Okay. So, but like G54 or whatever want to call it, you can add descriptive comments around them, which God bless.
00:23:57
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:23:57
John Saunders
Tormach actually lets you do it now on the PathPilot, which is great.
00:23:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah, right.
00:24:00
John Saunders
It's like, why can I not label or date what this is for? And in Heidenheim, you can lock it out.
00:24:05
johngrimsmo
Yes.
00:24:07
johngrimsmo
e
00:24:08
John Saunders
You don't do that?
00:24:09
johngrimsmo
I don't think so.
00:24:10
John Saunders
Oh, that looks like ah there are definitely times where I want to, mean, I understand how complicated permissions can get, well who has the right to update it?
00:24:12
johngrimsmo
Sure.
00:24:18
John Saunders
What's the threshold is they're tracking, but like zero points proven programs.
00:24:18
johngrimsmo
yeah.
00:24:21
John Saunders
like I don't want to risk the, I mean, it's crazy to think that you can just go fat finger or intentionally update or write an offset and it, you know, absolutely crashes can be.
00:24:33
johngrimsmo
Same with anything, tool offset.
00:24:36
John Saunders
Oh yeah.
00:24:36
johngrimsmo
Yeah, but but yeah. No, it's cool.
00:24:38
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah, but tool offsets, sure, those can screw but there's something about like a tool offset. Like I understand a tool offset is three inches or seven inches because it relates to a physical tool I can look at.
00:24:49
John Saunders
You know, on a VF2, the X home position for an offset of being 13.7 inches doesn't really mean, i understand it's 13 inches off the Z, but like you don't look at a machine and think, oh yeah, that that offsets about 13 inches from the right side of the travel.
00:24:50
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:24:57
johngrimsmo
I don't admit.
00:25:01
johngrimsmo
That makes sense. Yep.
00:25:04
John Saunders
um Yeah, I hope that was cool.
00:25:07
johngrimsmo
Yeah, it's ah it's a great control. And on the macro side, it's all the same stuff that FANUC programming has, but more.
00:25:14
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:25:15
johngrimsmo
um I can do SQL logic database dumps, and there's a datum table, which is really cool. So you're like additional offsets. If you probe a feature and all this part is off by 5,000, you write 5,000 into a datum table on X, Y, or Z. And your program will then call that offset for that toolpath or tool, yeah, for that program.
00:25:37
John Saunders
OK.
00:25:39
johngrimsmo
And then it doesn't affect any other program.
00:25:41
John Saunders
Yeah, it's amazing.
00:25:42
johngrimsmo
It's pretty cool. But it's complex.
00:25:45
John Saunders
yeah uh well my um i remember how much i to shared last week but my um sob story is we screwed up um i let our vf3 machine coolant go bad and i've never had this happen i've been running you know i've been running a real shop for almost 10 years and machining for probably 15 now and never ever had coolant that truly went bad and there's a whole bunch of excuses but the reality is we just we didn't do a good enough job and that buck stops with me
00:26:02
johngrimsmo
OK.
00:26:16
John Saunders
of how are we checking it? How are we maintaining it? And um there's an excuse, the excuse is that the, the excuse is really stinks.
00:26:27
John Saunders
The model of our Okuma that we were sent had the something unintentionally wrong with the AP, the pallet pool or the tool change. I don't remember. So we had taped it all out and done our homework and our layout. And then when it showed up and you have Literally, think there were five semi-trucks, a fleet of 10 riggers.
00:26:47
John Saunders
Like, is so much action happened. They're like, hey, this isn't doesn't match your markup. It's like had to make a game-time decision. And we didn't make the best decision on the spot. we The machine is a little bit too far to the right, which basically has boxed in our VF3.
00:27:02
johngrimsmo
Okay.
00:27:02
John Saunders
so we would not be able to move that VF3 out without moving, but we're not moving the horizontal because it has tons of connected accessories like the pallet pool, like bolted to the ground.
00:27:10
johngrimsmo
Yeah, the palettes and everything, yeah.
00:27:13
John Saunders
So you would have to move the Genos and the Genos, we could move it. It really could, but the level on that machine is great. And it's just not something I want to do. Um, so we're not doing it for now. Um, maybe we should know that I'm talking about this, but, uh,
00:27:28
John Saunders
The VF3 is boxed in and the coolant tank is is not particularly fun to get to. It's a bit tight. And that's just, that stinks. And that was the machine where the coolant started to smell. We should have caught it earlier.
00:27:38
John Saunders
So been going through this lot of like, this sounds silly, but like soul searching, like, hey, how did we get this bad? Where did we, you know, it's one thing if you don't want to clean a coolant tank, but we need to think about like, how do we ah then avoid this or no?
00:27:50
John Saunders
Because we could have caught this way sooner.
00:27:50
johngrimsmo
hey yeah
00:27:52
John Saunders
So when I lifted up the lid and actually looked in the tank, it was, Unbelievably disgusting. Like, yeah, the most dark, rich brown, like Hershey bar chocolate brown with with two to three inch diameter hemispherical bubbles on top.
00:27:58
johngrimsmo
in what way like describe it to me
00:28:06
johngrimsmo
whoa okay
00:28:11
John Saunders
like it looked like an alien landscape. um And I'm not an expert, but I remember learning this at some point, think fascinating. So basically what happens is that oil on top stops oxygen from beginning to the coolant and that creates an environment where bacteria thrives and bacteria grows.
00:28:25
John Saunders
And then you end up with, in this case, a hundred gallons of what is effectively spoiled milk. I mean, it smells disgusting.
00:28:31
johngrimsmo
or
00:28:31
John Saunders
um And there was no like, Oh, we can kind of like half fix this. So sucked all the coolant out. Um, actually we're, we are fortunate.
00:28:42
John Saunders
Uh, Caleb's on vacation. Um, and that's the machine he runs. And so it's basically was going to be idle this week anyway. So worked out great, drained it all and then scrubbed it, scrubbed the tank, which I'm scrubbing it in place. Cause it won't come out, which is like, like climbing into the tank.
00:28:57
John Saunders
I brought like old dog towels from home.
00:28:59
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:28:59
John Saunders
Um, I actually, To be totally honest, don't mind doing this.
00:29:02
johngrimsmo
yeah sure
00:29:03
John Saunders
um It's not great though. And yeah, just think so. i I filled it back up with, it's that big, it's a Haas big tank, whatever they call it, extra tank.
00:29:14
John Saunders
So it's a hundred gallons. I did not want to put in like 60 gallons of 1%. just to have to dispose of it.
00:29:22
johngrimsmo
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
00:29:23
John Saunders
Maybe I'm being too cheap here, but you need to flush it. So I did flush it with as little as I could. And then it occurred to me this morning, what I need to be able to do is, I think if I figuratively got rid of the coolant tank, you could get a...
00:29:37
John Saunders
um tupperware tank like rubbermaid bin and you could fill it with 10 gallons and put the haas pump in it and then you could cycle 10 gallons through that way you're getting cleaning through your hose you can do some wash down maybe you need to do more than 10 but you see what i'm saying i don't want to fill up
00:29:54
johngrimsmo
and then drain back into the Rubbermaid tub. and
00:29:56
John Saunders
But then to put it into disposal and it into the, ah we keep those bins for a safety clean to pick up.
00:29:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah, that's good idea.
00:30:02
John Saunders
But my point is, if you don't, on a Haas tank, if you don't fill up halfway, the coolant, the pumps don't even pick it up.
00:30:08
johngrimsmo
Yeah, what you mean, yeah. And it's a big tank, so interesting.
00:30:09
John Saunders
um Yeah. But I went around and started to create um ah list. So it's like, okay, hold on. We need to make sure every machine has a skimmer and its skimmer is running. We've moved them around sometimes and or they break, whatever.
00:30:22
John Saunders
We need to be better about that. We're going to replace some of the metal tops with send, cut, send, clear acrylic.
00:30:27
johngrimsmo
Nice.
00:30:27
John Saunders
That way we have a viewport that you can just see it.
00:30:29
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:30
John Saunders
um I bought aquarium pumps that would move liquid around and um that way we have... liquid moving in the tank, even if the machine's off. This machine also sits.
00:30:41
John Saunders
That's the other problem.
00:30:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:43
John Saunders
And then I also bought the air pump. So that we're going to put the air stone in to to create some oxygen.
00:30:49
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:30:49
John Saunders
Look, the cool is also old. So it's not like we got robbed of anything. Frankly, it probably was due anyways for this.
00:30:55
John Saunders
um But now it stinks. and I'm realizing a lot of our machines are going to need this done too. Like they have sludge in the bottom. it just... you know, life of running the shop. So, um, bought a Freddy, it's going to be six weeks away, but it's going to be way better than the Xair, which is just, it's not fun to use the Xair.
00:30:55
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:31:08
johngrimsmo
Nice. Yeah.
00:31:13
johngrimsmo
in
00:31:13
John Saunders
Um, and
00:31:14
johngrimsmo
I feel like up until now, you were like, it works fine.
00:31:17
John Saunders
so that's a great point. Um, I thought it did actually went and watched some of our old videos of me using it from like five years ago. I have no memory of, of me doing it, of that video, or even like how to use it.
00:31:29
John Saunders
But I Um, the X-Air doesn't drain itself completely. So if you have a really, really dirty tank, then that nastiness stays in the bottom, which means if you want to use it for a kind of clean tank, you're mixing it with really bad coolant.
00:31:43
John Saunders
I hate that. The filters are pain in the butt to change. It's fussy to reverse the direction. Um, yeah, the Freddy, um, is it, we bought the Ecovac, which I'm guessing is what you have.
00:31:43
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah.
00:31:56
johngrimsmo
We have the big orange one.
00:31:57
John Saunders
Yeah, that's, so yeah, it's not the micro or whatever.
00:31:58
johngrimsmo
um like Yeah, not the micro. um it's It's got its little hiccups too. like It won't drain everything out of the tank. I don't think the pickup for the exhaust drain, whatever, is at the very, very, very bottom of the cylinder.
00:32:07
John Saunders
Okay.
00:32:10
John Saunders
Yeah. Yeah.
00:32:14
johngrimsmo
But it opens up pretty easily and it's easy to clean. But especially if you're taking out like bacteria-laden coolant, our huge concern is the Freddy being dirty and leaving dirty because we don't use it for months at a time.
00:32:17
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:32:24
John Saunders
Yes.
00:32:28
johngrimsmo
And you don't want that to become an environment for bacteria to grow.
00:32:30
John Saunders
Yes. Right.
00:32:32
johngrimsmo
And then you go suck out the next machine and you you're just spreading it everywhere. So we, I think we'd take it outside and we hose, um just hose it down a little bit, something like that.
00:32:42
John Saunders
Yeah. That's the things that's really nice is the getting to the filters is so much easier. And then it looks like to your point, even if it leaves a little bit in the bottom, we have a little five gallon liquid vacuum that you could use to suck up that stuff.
00:32:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:32:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah, I think we do that too, actually. Yep.
00:32:56
John Saunders
Whereas the Xair it's 110 gallon barrel.
00:32:59
John Saunders
And you gotta like tip it over and you can climb in the thing, but it's just for the birds. So, um, what I next need to do is throughout the summer, basically water machine every week or two is
00:32:59
johngrimsmo
Cool.
00:33:04
johngrimsmo
cool
00:33:11
John Saunders
and we sort of, I'm like overthinking this right now or overplaying it. We triage the machines. There's the machines that get you, the machine gets used regularly and has an easily accessible coolant tank. Those are not problems because the coolant stays good.
00:33:23
John Saunders
And if we need to pull, wheel the tank out, it's easier to do that. The worst are the machines that are hard to get to and in idle sometimes.
00:33:30
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:33:31
John Saunders
Um,
00:33:31
johngrimsmo
i
00:33:32
John Saunders
And so it's like going through that list and then but bought some better tools to scrape out tanks. Then we'll get cleaned up. But i felt I felt like I let myself and the team down by, you know, yes, it's the operator's job to maintain the machines.
00:33:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:33:45
John Saunders
And there's probably some lessons it you learn to learn and talk to you there, but um ultimately what's the process and and how do we avoid this from happening?
00:33:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah. Do you have little notes on every ma machine and when the last coolant change out was or filters were changed or anything? or do you have a log book?
00:34:02
John Saunders
Filters, for sure, we do. Cool swap outs, no, we don't. And look, I don't, yeah, we don't.
00:34:09
John Saunders
yeah
00:34:09
johngrimsmo
Yeah, we tend to put a green packing tape, like painter's tape, a little big strip of it on the side of the machine.
00:34:13
John Saunders
Okay.
00:34:15
johngrimsmo
And then we Sharpie on that being like, cool, it swapped out April 2024. twenty twenty four um Same for filters, because I really like when we do our walk around to be like, oh, that's how old that is.
00:34:26
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:34:27
johngrimsmo
Oh yeah, I've become absolutely obsessed with dating everything. Like we do it in our fridge at home. we have ah We have a black Sharpie and a silver Sharpie. This is a life hack for you. Black Sharpie and a silver Sharpie at home.
00:34:39
johngrimsmo
So when we open a new jar of yogurt or salsa or something like that, um something that will go bad and you know before you know it, a salad dressing.
00:34:47
John Saunders
Right?
00:34:49
johngrimsmo
Um, we write, you know, April 12th, 2025.
00:34:49
John Saunders
Yes.
00:34:53
johngrimsmo
And then that way, when you're digging through the fridge and you're like, wait, this is how old. Okay. Um, uh, different caps.
00:34:58
John Saunders
Wait, what's interesting black and silver then?
00:35:01
johngrimsmo
Sometimes you have a black plastic cap, right?
00:35:02
John Saunders
Oh, that's all. Okay. I thought it was like color coded for even odd months or something if funny.
00:35:05
johngrimsmo
Nope. And I've gotten the kids on this.
00:35:07
John Saunders
it
00:35:08
johngrimsmo
I've got Meg on this and they love it. They like, it's, it's the greatest thing ever.
00:35:11
John Saunders
Oh, there it
00:35:13
johngrimsmo
um And it's so simple and so easy. And you actually feel like you're in control now and know, are aware of what's in your fridge. So we do that here at work too.
00:35:18
John Saunders
Yes.
00:35:20
johngrimsmo
um Because when things are important like that, like food you put in your body or coolant in the machine, you're like, if I ask the guys, how old is that?
00:35:25
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:35:26
johngrimsmo
and they're like, I think I changed it out. Um, like a year or two ago. That's not good enough.
00:35:31
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:35:32
johngrimsmo
That's just not, you know, we're more professional than that.
00:35:35
John Saunders
Well, truth be told, just be totally an open book here. We've had such good luck with the quality chem and we do top it off and we do, i mean, I would normally would have said we maintain hit our coolant, but the reality is our tanks have a lot of sludge in them, which isn't helping, but it lasts too long.
00:35:52
John Saunders
Like I bet you, if I'm being honest, I bet you we have machines with three or four year coolant.
00:35:52
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:35:57
johngrimsmo
yeah Yeah, exactly.
00:35:58
John Saunders
so So like now I feel like I'm just being honest about it So, um okay, we'll fix it. got the better tools to do it. And are you rigid on, Even if cool is, seems fine, smells fine, working fine.
00:36:09
John Saunders
Are you, will you set a hard limit of like two years?
00:36:11
johngrimsmo
We'll do one to two years. i don't think we've really stretched past two years. And Angelo controls all of this.
00:36:15
John Saunders
Interesting.
00:36:17
johngrimsmo
um
00:36:17
John Saunders
Okay.
00:36:17
johngrimsmo
You can tell when it starts to degrade, get bad, get yellow or smelly or um just not seem to cut as well or feel weird.
00:36:21
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:36:25
johngrimsmo
um Because you know that like new quality chem, like white stuff.
00:36:29
John Saunders
Sure do.
00:36:30
johngrimsmo
fragrant, like you're like, that's how it should be.
00:36:31
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:36:32
johngrimsmo
So on that topic, we've got quality cam to
00:36:36
John Saunders
Oh, yeah, you switched it, right?
00:36:38
johngrimsmo
251 in most of our machines.
00:36:39
John Saunders
OK.
00:36:41
johngrimsmo
And then Mori, we're trying, um, uh, 890 geo cool.
00:36:42
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:36:47
John Saunders
OK.
00:36:47
johngrimsmo
And we've had it in there for a year or two.
00:36:49
johngrimsmo
And, uh, it's It's good, but it's different. And unfortunately, we've um we've kind of allowed the bricks to get up to 16%, which is like a lot higher than it should be.
00:37:00
John Saunders
Ooh.
00:37:04
johngrimsmo
um so it's getting yellower, it's getting a bit smellier, not in a bad way, just in like a weird kind of this, this coolant smells different kind of thing. Um, I, I like the two 51 better. I'm just used to it. It feels cleaner. It's nicer. But on the other hand, we let the bricks get too high. So are we judging it poorly based on our poor performance?
00:37:23
johngrimsmo
Um, and it, we were topping off with like water.
00:37:25
John Saunders
Are you, oh, cause you're topping off without, well, mix.
00:37:29
johngrimsmo
Um,
00:37:30
John Saunders
No, think you use pre-mix though in your lines.
00:37:33
johngrimsmo
oh Not for this one, because it's the new coolant, right?
00:37:35
John Saunders
Oh, sure.
00:37:37
johngrimsmo
So we don't have it tied into our system.
00:37:37
John Saunders
Right.
00:37:39
johngrimsmo
So, like, I don't know, like, we're trying to figure out, do we want to put the whole shop on this 890 Geo Cool, or do we want to not?
00:37:51
johngrimsmo
Or do we want to stick with 251?
00:37:51
John Saunders
No, you already said you don't like it.
00:37:53
johngrimsmo
Yeah, but it doesn't foam, and the 251 kind of does foam, especially in the Mori, and it it would foam so bad that it would it would leak on the ground and, like, be a problem.
00:38:02
John Saunders
Yeah. Right.
00:38:04
johngrimsmo
um so i't know
00:38:08
John Saunders
If there's one thing I've learned though, it's hard to say this because the devil's in the details the and all that, but like, if you don't, if it's not clear and you don't love something, try something else or don't do it.
00:38:22
John Saunders
Like do not, like I'm picking on you here, which may not be a good example.
00:38:22
johngrimsmo
yeah for sure yeah
00:38:25
John Saunders
Like you don't love this, the new, what's it called? 891. You don't love it. And maybe it's your own fault, blah, blah, But didn't regardless, the last thing I would do is move your whole shot.
00:38:33
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:38:36
johngrimsmo
I know, that's the big worry, right?
00:38:36
John Saunders
Like, no, just don't.
00:38:38
johngrimsmo
And it brings it back. I think we've talked about this years ago. It's like, it's either a hell yes or it's a no.
00:38:43
John Saunders
That's perfect. Yeah.
00:38:45
johngrimsmo
And, you know, maybe that is the case here.
00:38:48
John Saunders
Cause what I'm realizing, and it's actually, it's been nice that the VF3 was down all week. Um, because I'm letting the whole thing dry out. And then like every day I come back in little bit more, it's trickling out. I vacuum or sop it up and then like probably gonna wait till Monday, which a holiday here anyways, to like actually top it back up.
00:38:58
johngrimsmo
yeah Okay, don't know.
00:39:04
John Saunders
Um, I'm not running cleaner through it because don't have one, which is probably a bad excuse. I should probably get one, but, um,
00:39:10
johngrimsmo
Mm-hmm.
00:39:13
John Saunders
I'm hoping if I really, I flushed it. So I flushed it with 1% bricks. I don't, and I think Rob was saying in ah and the WhatsApp, like bacteria is always going to exist. It's just a question whether you create an environment for it to thrive and grow.
00:39:24
John Saunders
So um I'm hoping I'll be okay, but um maybe I'm being naive about that in right now.
00:39:25
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:39:31
johngrimsmo
who Well, and I've heard from guys in the beer brewing sector, when when we were talking about mold and stuff in our RO tank, I had some brewers that listened to the podcast that are like, oh yeah, mold doesn't go away.
00:39:41
John Saunders
Oh yeah.
00:39:49
johngrimsmo
Like you'll never never get rid of it.
00:39:49
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:39:51
johngrimsmo
um like and Like Rob said too. So like even in your machine, you know as good as you clean it out, I guess it's still gonna be there, but you gotta create that environment that it doesn't like. So it can't get worse.
00:40:00
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:40:02
johngrimsmo
Good.
00:40:02
John Saunders
I will say we in it sort of inadvertently or coincidentally knew from day one with the Okamoto grinder, that machine, it'll run like one day a month right now.
00:40:10
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:40:11
John Saunders
So we knew it was going to be a potential problem from the get go. So I put a pond pump and an aerator on it from day one and it has the band filter stuff as well because the grinding stuff is yucky. That cool, it still looks that quality of white.
00:40:23
johngrimsmo
good
00:40:23
John Saunders
Um, so that's kind of telling me like, why aren't more people doing the pond pump thing? Um,
00:40:29
johngrimsmo
the aerator or the just circulation
00:40:32
John Saunders
Uh, so I think that what I mean is the aerator and I bought the circulation pump, the liquid pump more so that way, if a skimmer is running, but the tank has no flow to it the skimmer going to do anything.
00:40:44
johngrimsmo
hmm yeah
00:40:44
John Saunders
So the idea with the pond pump and I'm putting them on, um the pond pumps come with some PVC or some flexible hose. I'm putting that on a 30 inch piece of PEX.
00:40:57
John Saunders
That way the pond pump actually creates some movement of water in the tank, which lets the skimmer do its job better.
00:41:02
johngrimsmo
but yeah for sure yeah so it's kind of a combination of circulation is good aeration is good skimmer is good or um the next gen uh coalescer yeah
00:41:15
John Saunders
Colester. I thought, yeah, yeah. We didn't like those because, first off, not against spending the money, but they they are $600, and so you've got to you know times 10.
00:41:25
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:41:27
John Saunders
Man, we found that they, the filter thing inside of them was just, the guys hated it. It got nasty.
00:41:34
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:41:34
John Saunders
It was hard to clean. um
00:41:36
johngrimsmo
True.
00:41:37
John Saunders
And a skimmer should work. So that's where am.
00:41:40
johngrimsmo
Skimmer doesn't always work. i mean, we've used a couple. haven't used them extensively. um We have the next gen on our Mori, and we use it. It doesn't collect a ton of oil. We have one on the Knack, but it hasn't been hooked up in several years.
00:41:54
johngrimsmo
And we have one on the Current that also hasn't yet been hooked up. um So like I'm kind of on the fence of like, oh, you got to have one. Or like, eh, it's another tool.
00:42:05
John Saunders
Yeah. um So much for a short podcast, I guess. Can I ask your opinion real quick though?
00:42:10
johngrimsmo
All right. Yep.
00:42:12
John Saunders
we're We use ID expanding clamps that we make for holding one of our parts.
00:42:18
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:42:19
John Saunders
And this we use them actually lot of different parts and different sizes. These ones that we need are small. The whole clamp is, i call it six, seven millimeters or 0.25, about quarter inch, which means the biggest screw that you can fit in there is an M4 screw to expand the ID clamp out.
00:42:39
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:42:41
John Saunders
And for now, let's set aside the idea of making our own screws. We we could do that, but we don't want to. um We, I believe, and I should firm this up with Garrett to make sure I'm not misspeaking, but we are you we are using a torque wrench. I don't know if we're using the a torque spec too high for an M4.
00:42:57
John Saunders
But we are inconsistently but regularly breaking the screw right where the thread meets the taper of the flathead screw.
00:43:03
johngrimsmo
Interesting.
00:43:04
John Saunders
They are the strong, they are 140,000 PSI tensile strength from McMaster. That's the highest torques they have. They have a hex head that's 170. So 10, 15% higher ah more, but like I don't, that doesn't jump out at me. It's like, oh, that's going to fix the problem.
00:43:21
John Saunders
um You've done a ton of work with small screws, fixturing any, you know, torque wrench tips, lubricating the threads, like any thoughts?
00:43:25
johngrimsmo
Yeah. I don't
00:43:30
johngrimsmo
yeah i don't really use the flathead screws for anything. We use M6 button head for almost everything. A couple M4s, but usually the socket head kind, not the flathead kind.
00:43:38
John Saunders
Okay.
00:43:42
John Saunders
Okay.
00:43:43
johngrimsmo
and that i mean Clearly that's the weak point of the screw, but are you torquing it more than the M4 spec? Yeah.
00:43:50
John Saunders
That's what I... hope or not, but i I should firm that up with Garrett or even like maybe the torque, maybe this is a situation where the torque wrench is too violent or, or like, the you know, torque.
00:43:54
johngrimsmo
Yeah, because
00:44:03
johngrimsmo
like is it one of the big torque wrenches or like a little handheld, you know, six inch long thing?
00:44:08
John Saunders
This should be one of the Sandvik ones that we have buy and like,
00:44:11
johngrimsmo
The black Sandvik ones, yeah, we use those a lot.
00:44:13
John Saunders
Uh, yeah, thanks.
00:44:13
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:44:14
John Saunders
Yeah. Cause like we use the Amazon cheapo, uh, torrents for bigger stuff, which those are fine. We also don't have problems with those screws breaking the, the, the finer stuff.
00:44:21
johngrimsmo
yeah
00:44:22
John Saunders
I like the Santa quality and precision.
00:44:24
johngrimsmo
Yeah, the Sandvik torque tool is great. um We've got like four of them. For our M6, I think we're doing nine or 10 Newton meters, which I think is the literal M6 torque spec period.
00:44:38
johngrimsmo
And there will be an M4 torque spec, which will be a lot less than nine.
00:44:40
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:44:42
johngrimsmo
But it it doesn't feel like a lot of torque. Even with this six inch long handle, you're like, click, really? That's it?
00:44:47
John Saunders
Yeah. um I think what I wanted, what I should check on is, are we lubricating the threads?
00:44:59
John Saunders
Because that changes the torque spec, I believe, and making sure we're using a like a high pressure, like a blue molly or a high pressure grease between the tapers.
00:45:01
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:09
John Saunders
That way you're reducing the friction between the surface.
00:45:11
johngrimsmo
Yeah, you're actually slipping.
00:45:13
John Saunders
it Yeah, exactly.
00:45:13
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:45:16
johngrimsmo
Oh,
00:45:16
John Saunders
In fact, we should cut some retention, cut oil retention or grease features.
00:45:21
johngrimsmo
yeah, I see what mean. Yeah. Into the, not the screw, but into the screw taper, like they
00:45:29
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:45:31
johngrimsmo
mating side taper. Hmm.
00:45:33
John Saunders
Yeah.
Precision Grinding Insights with Robin Ranzetti
00:45:38
johngrimsmo
Interesting.
00:45:40
John Saunders
Yeah. Okay. Thank you.
00:45:42
johngrimsmo
Well, speaking of, uh, Molly coat, um, last week we were talking about the Tormac surface grinder and a super fun conversation.
00:45:48
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:45:50
johngrimsmo
And then I get this email from Robin Ranzetti and he's like, give me a call. And was like, okay, And we chatted for a good long while about grinding and precision and ah dynamic balance and spindles and everything.
00:45:58
John Saunders
Nice.
00:46:04
johngrimsmo
And it was just so awesome to hear, you know, pick his brain and have him teach me things.
00:46:06
John Saunders
Good.
00:46:09
johngrimsmo
And it was cool. Something he said, he's like, he's like, I know you know a lot of this, but I'm going to go through it all just in case you miss something. And I was like, yes, please.
00:46:17
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:46:17
johngrimsmo
I appreciate that. Like, don't assume I know anything because, and he told me things that are like old hat to him that I've never heard of in my life. And i was like, whoa, interesting.
00:46:29
johngrimsmo
um Specifically with like with the way the table is made, it's on the rack and pinion drive, like I talked about. And he's like, yeah, a ton of people upgrade them to a cable drive.
00:46:34
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:46:36
johngrimsmo
I'm like, what's a cable drive?
00:46:38
John Saunders
Oh yeah.
00:46:38
johngrimsmo
And it's like a drum on the turning handle spindle. And then you attach a cable to both sides.
00:46:43
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:46:45
johngrimsmo
And I'm like, that sounds complicated. And I look into it. It's like really not complicated at all.
00:46:49
John Saunders
It's like tin like a tin can on a string.
00:46:52
John Saunders
Like the, yeah.
00:46:52
johngrimsmo
Yeah, literally.
00:46:53
johngrimsmo
um Except the problem on the Tormac is the the hand wheel comes in at like a 30 degree angle, whereas a lot of grinders come in at a straight angle, making the drum cable style like super easy.
00:46:59
John Saunders
Weird. Yeah.
00:47:04
johngrimsmo
At the 30 degree angle makes it a lot more complicated. um So I'm going to leave that alone for now, but I did come up with a way that I could mount a new system to the side. I don't know. It's kind of weird, but not my first priority, but um yeah, we talked about balance, wheel balance and all that stuff. And,
00:47:22
johngrimsmo
he He likes the air bearing balancer, but he's like, it's not the whole story. And was like, well, what do you mean? It's perfect. And it's like, no, it's, is the Arbor running true? Is, is the spindle on the machine running true?
00:47:33
johngrimsmo
Is the Arbor matching the, the thing of the spindle?
00:47:34
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:47:37
johngrimsmo
And was like, well, okay. Okay. I have some questions to answer.
00:47:39
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:47:41
John Saunders
Did he give you a ah punchline conclusive or like most likely answer about when you were finding what I would call wheel hop, but maybe that's the wrong term.
00:47:48
johngrimsmo
Yep. Yep. um Yeah, because even after balancing the wheel quite well, according to the air bearing balance grinder or thingy, it still left weird marks on the table on the part.
00:48:00
johngrimsmo
So it's either the wheel assembly, the whole motor, everything is still out of balance or or the table axis travel, the rack opinion is imparting something to it.
00:48:03
John Saunders
Mm-hmm.
00:48:12
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:48:14
John Saunders
Okay.
00:48:15
johngrimsmo
and I don't know yet. And I tried different feats and speeds to try to see if it, you know, the lines get closer or further apart. And that was kind of inclusive. According to my quick testing, it's kind of weird.
00:48:22
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:48:25
johngrimsmo
Or like it's on four feet. Maybe it's wobbling, great but it's got pretty consistent banding.
00:48:28
John Saunders
Moving in. Yeah.
00:48:32
johngrimsmo
So I, I don't know. still playing with it, but I kind of haven't had a chance since, since it's last week. But yeah, it's fun.
00:48:39
John Saunders
Good.
00:48:40
johngrimsmo
I'm enjoying it.
00:48:40
John Saunders
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:48:41
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:48:45
johngrimsmo
All right, what are you up to for the rest of the day?
00:48:47
John Saunders
I
Episode Wrap-up and Future Plans
00:48:48
John Saunders
am well, the John, I used record this morning, now we record in the afternoon. So that question is a different question now because it's three o'clock and our it's our kids the last day of school.
00:48:58
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:49:00
John Saunders
So in,
00:49:01
johngrimsmo
Last year school now? What are you talking about?
00:49:02
John Saunders
30, yeah, don't i trust, trying can i send it yeah can I send them to you for another month of school?
00:49:03
johngrimsmo
Dude, our kids are, we got another month. yeah
00:49:10
John Saunders
So I will be eating ice cream in about 40 minutes.
00:49:13
johngrimsmo
Oh, I feel so bad for you.
00:49:14
John Saunders
Yeah, I know. It's fun. It it's brings me joy.
00:49:17
johngrimsmo
Good, good.
00:49:20
John Saunders
But otherwise the honest answer is I need to go check on that cool tank and I got to go change two lights. are I probably shouldn't be upset, but are many of our overhead lights are eight years old and they're just, they're failing.
00:49:30
John Saunders
So I probably should just go replace them all because that's like, okay, have a project versus now and I'm like, you get upset when you're oh, no, that one's blinking. And it's like, well, once they start blinking, they're gone.
00:49:30
johngrimsmo
Really?
00:49:38
johngrimsmo
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
00:49:40
John Saunders
Like you guys got to go replace them. So got to do that.
00:49:42
johngrimsmo
Yeah, you don't want like weird color differences across the shop. if and
00:49:46
John Saunders
We've actually been lucky to, we did have to switch.
00:49:47
johngrimsmo
Yeah.
00:49:49
John Saunders
All of the new ones are different than the old ones in terms the format, but they all have the same CRA and the same color tab.
00:49:56
John Saunders
We're very, you know, a new one next an old one does look a little bit different, but that's also because the colors change and then frankly, they get a little dirty.
00:49:56
johngrimsmo
OK.
00:49:57
johngrimsmo
And it looks right. Yeah,
00:50:03
johngrimsmo
good
00:50:06
John Saunders
um The new ones are brighter, but it's after a day, nobody would notice.
00:50:11
johngrimsmo
fair. Cool. Are any unreachable? de Do you need like a cherry picker or whatever?
00:50:18
John Saunders
We sold our scissor lift probably a year and a half ago because it was pointless anymore in our shop. So we have a straight ladder, like an extension ladder and we have an A-frame ladder that reaches our ceiling.
00:50:27
johngrimsmo
No way.
00:50:28
John Saunders
Yeah, the ladder is the only way to get up there now.
00:50:30
johngrimsmo
But there's like machines in the way.
00:50:32
John Saunders
um ah So far it's been fine. we have I don't know if we've moved them or coincidence about the machine, but basically we try not to put lights right over the machines anyways, because it shadows.
00:50:39
johngrimsmo
come
00:50:42
John Saunders
um So I haven't had an issue there yet.
00:50:44
johngrimsmo
that Cool.
00:50:46
John Saunders
How about you? Oh, you're going to go dive in the current, right?
00:50:48
johngrimsmo
Yeah, pretty much.
00:50:49
John Saunders
Yeah. Okay. Well, thinking of you, I'm sorry, dude.
00:50:50
johngrimsmo
Yep. That's okay.
00:50:52
John Saunders
Yeah.
00:50:53
johngrimsmo
Make it work.
00:50:53
John Saunders
I'll see you next week.
00:50:53
johngrimsmo
Okay. See you next week.
00:50:55
John Saunders
Bye.
00:50:56
johngrimsmo
Bye.