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The Flash vs JL: The Flashpoint Paradox
1.2k Plays2 years ago
The Flash has finally hit theaters and Hayley Hobbs from Source Pages joins us to discuss the new flick as well as compare it to it's animated counterpart: 2013's Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox.
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Appearance
00:00:01
Speaker
On another exciting episode of the Animation Deliberation Podcast, we are speeding through the multiverse as the Flash is currently in theaters and we are comparing it to the animated film Flashpoint Paradox right up to these ads. We have no control over. Sing along if you know the words. One, two, three, it's time for Animation Deliberation. A conversation and a celebration of our favorite action animated series.
Flashpoint Comics and Secret Invasion
00:00:25
Speaker
Yeah.
00:00:28
Speaker
Yeah, welcome back to another episode of Animation Deliberation, the podcast where we take action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. We are your hosts. I am Zuhara Lee. My name's Jay Scotty St. Clair. And I am Andrew Rogers. And joining us today is one of the co-hosts of Source Pages, a reading collective where you can find anywhere you get your podcasts. Miss Haley Hobbs, thank you for joining us today. Hey, fellas, thanks for letting me get out of that hamster chrono ball and join you.
00:00:56
Speaker
Yeah, you guys have been covering the Flashpoint comics leading up to this movie. Is there anything else that you guys are working on? Anything that you want to share with the people? Future projects coming up?
00:01:07
Speaker
Yeah, we're going to be kind of like we did with Flashpoint, reading the core storyline from Secret Invasion in 2008, because that show is airing this week, which is super wild to think about. And because of the schedule of things coming out, we're going to be doing those primer episodes while the show is going. So that's kind of against our norm. And then I think we're going to be diving back into Secret Wars again. So we have all kinds of fun projects and certainly no lack of content.
00:01:33
Speaker
Yeah, both ends of the spectrum with DC and Marvel for you. Yes. Yeah, it is the season, whether it be streaming or theaters or things to read, there is lots of content and not enough time to watch any of it. So we're going to dive right into
Flash Movie Review: Jay Scotty's Take
00:01:50
Speaker
this. We have the flash in theaters right now.
00:01:53
Speaker
We are comparing it to Flashpoint Paradox, but before we get into the animated film, we're just going to talk about the Flash as a whole, because as the listeners know, we like our loopholes. We like to find reasons to talk about live action stuff. So, Jay Scottie, why don't you kick us off with your thoughts on the Flash?
00:02:11
Speaker
Yeah, first and foremost, I just want to say I'm just really grateful that we finally got this Flash movie. I think it's been since 2014, if not before that, that we've had this film just really stuck in development hell. I think it had no less than five directors during the course of its production. The fact that this thing is finally out there and we get to enjoy it, that alone is reason for me to celebrate.
00:02:34
Speaker
I have seen the movie twice so far, and ratings are pretty arbitrary, but I think I've settled in that. I think it's a solid seven
Flash Movie Review: Andrew's Perspective
00:02:42
Speaker
out of 10. I think it's a really great flash story. I think Ezra Miller really does a great job embodying Barry Allen. It does have some issues, but of course, getting Michael Keaton back on the big screen as Batman is worth the price of admission alone, and I thought Sasha Kai as Supergirl was a lot of fun.
00:03:02
Speaker
All in all, I'm mostly positive on it. I'll talk about maybe some of the issues I had with it as we continue the discussion. Sure. Andrew, what you got?
00:03:12
Speaker
I'm in a similar boat. I think I'm a little bit lower than Jay Scotty. I'm very whelmed. But in the aspect of it was just a fun movie, like it was dead center of the road, like almost five out of 10, six out of 10. If I had to put a number to it as well, just because like, it had fun, it didn't take itself seriously. And it was a comic book movie at its core, like it was still very superhero.
00:03:34
Speaker
but it just didn't do anything to really wow me over the top. Like you said, you sang the praises of Michael Keaton back as Batman. I think this is the best showing of Ben Affleck as Batman. He did a incredible job, in my opinion, coming back into the role. But yeah, there was
00:03:51
Speaker
some ups and downs but just across the board it was a lot of fun and I wasn't expecting a ton out of Ezra Miller but I think they really found specific moments to shine in this movie that did blow me away but also just made me ask why didn't we get those more of those specific moments instead of a lot of the silly moments that they had with Ezra Miller because I think as an actor doing emotional beats
00:04:18
Speaker
they were absolutely stunning across the board. So it was a great watch. I would totally recommend it if you're a fan of the things but it is just kind of center of the road for me. It didn't do anything too bad but didn't do anything great either.
Flash Movie Review: Zuhara's Insights
00:04:35
Speaker
I think I'm right there with you guys. I actually, I'm giving it a DC caveat and I'm giving it a seven and a half out of 10 because I think it's one of DC's best outings in recent history and all of the things you've both said are true, but I too have focused on Ezra Miller's performance as Barry Allen, really making the character their own, giving a really great physical as well as emotional performance and not just the running, pretending to run, but in a lot of other ways that stood out to me in the film.
00:05:04
Speaker
hitting kind of the right beats that are everything about Barry Allen's character that matter. And especially the defining moment of, you know, what makes him Barry Allen and what Ben Affleck's Batman talks to him about defining moments is important. So I really loved it. I thought it was super fun. I loved all the quippy humor and I don't actually have a lot of problems with it. So we'll get into it.
00:05:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think I was just... I didn't hate it in any ways, but I feel like I was just underwhelmed with it. There was definitely a lot of spots that were highlighted that you guys mentioned, but I just don't think that it was able to come together for how I expected it to. I think Ezra Miller's performance was incredible. He has incredible range as an actor.
Discussing Flash Movie's Shortcomings
00:05:47
Speaker
The comedy was definitely on point. There wasn't a joke that I don't think didn't land.
00:05:53
Speaker
And being able to see this cool version of Supergirl and Michael Keaton come back and still being able to see Ben Affleck individually had a lot of strong components. It's just I don't think it tied together. And that's going to kind of open up our spoiler talk a little bit. There was a lot of things to compare to with this. So spoilers for Flashpoint Paradox and Flash the TV series. These two things specifically for me personally set a bar.
00:06:20
Speaker
that even if I wanted to go in here knowing nothing, like these two things still have an influence on what this movie had to compete against.
00:06:29
Speaker
And I felt like the ending was a little weak, and because of DCEU's ups and downs, and first off it's starting off with being too rushed, trying to compete with Marvel, to just completely being a derail train and having two separate sets of content, one being like universe canon and one being not, and then having a
00:06:53
Speaker
a buyout and shift change and this and that. Like the reason that I feel like this movie didn't hit as much as I think it could have is because we didn't have the time and the consistency to focus on Barry Allen and why the story matters for him. And I feel like DCU's ups and downs robbed us for an emotional buildup that could have made this more strong in my personal opinion.
00:07:22
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's a fair
Flash vs. Flashpoint Paradox: Missed Opportunities
00:07:24
Speaker
assessment. I think I kind of agree with you, but the way that I've found myself wording it more often than not is I think given the nature of the Flashpoint story, especially when we talk about the animated film, how far they really took the ramifications of Barry Allen making this one change and the ripple effect it has on both the past and the future, I did feel like they played it a little bit safe.
00:07:50
Speaker
I think there were, you know, obviously we've talked a little bit about Michael Keaton and Sasha Kai as Supergirl, like that was all great.
00:07:59
Speaker
And I love some of the cameos we got, but you talked about all the jokes landing. And that's one thing I kind of found myself wondering about a little bit, because I saw this thing twice. I saw it by myself the first time, and then I went with a couple of friends the second time. And my friends weren't picking up all the jokes and all the moments. The Eric Stoltz says, Back to the Future. I feel like that was only people that really know about the history of the production of Back to the Future, how Eric Stoltz almost was Marty McFly.
00:08:28
Speaker
the stand-up applaud moment for me the first time I saw it was when Nick Cage popped up as Superman fighting the spider because that was Kevin Smith's pitch. He wanted to make Superman Lives, and that was the movie that never saw the light of day. That nod there, I thought all of that stuff was great. I just didn't know how that landed for a general audience member.
00:08:50
Speaker
One thing I was kind of surprised at and it's, you know, you have to kind of check yourself with your expectations and make sure my ex, I'll speak for myself that my expectations aren't having a big impact on what's actually delivered to me.
Humor and CW Cameos in The Flash
00:09:03
Speaker
But I do think it's a shame that we didn't have a single like CW verse cameo because Ezra Miller popped up in the CW. I know that from like Crisis on Infinite Earth. So it seems like it was right there. The flash just wrapped up.
00:09:15
Speaker
Did they? Did I not catch it? He had... What's his name that played Jay Garrick, right? Wasn't that from the CW show? I don't believe it was the same... Oh, that was from the original Flash series. Yeah, it was not the same character. Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Okay. Sorry. But yeah, you... Yeah, there was an old Flash show from back in the day that was starring the... It was the Jay Garrick Flash, and it... Well, I guess that same actor popped up in the CW show, but...
00:09:41
Speaker
Yeah, like he came real quick on real quick on those two things about general audience. I actually didn't know both of those facts, but I was still really entertained with how they delivered it. OK, good to know.
00:09:55
Speaker
Yeah, it was a lot of things that felt like in jokes. Because like, I didn't know I couldn't tell you who Eric Stoltz was in the moment, I had to like walk out of the theater and look it up. But they kind of saved it with the like, oh, wait, the guy from Footloose? No, that's Kevin Bacon, the guy from Top Gun? Like, okay, hang on, I know those other things, I can at least get there in the end to kind of make those jokes work out. What they said about Top Gun, but that just had me dying.
00:10:19
Speaker
Oh, it was, I think it was when he started singing Elvis and everything like that. Yeah, the shirtless scene and the bar with the volleyball, just all that. Goodness gracious, great bowl.
00:10:31
Speaker
Yeah, there was a lot of those moments. But I think you said it best, Jay Scottie, and it kind of deals with expectations. And maybe we've been spoiled with multiverse things. But I think this movie played it safe. Very similar to one of my many complaints with Dr. Strange multiverse of madness is you're dealing with a multiverse and a timeline of ramifications, you can do
00:10:52
Speaker
anything you want. And this was your choice. I don't necessarily think it was bad. I like I loved Supergirl. But I don't think we got enough of her because I think she was in the shadow of Superman throughout this movie and in the shadow of all the things and Michael Keaton coming back as Batman.
00:11:09
Speaker
he could have done more things or we could have played it differently to kind of compare to the movie in the comics. I was really hoping he was going to be Thomas Wayne and now it was going to be the big like kicker of the movie, but instead it felt like a very safe bet to just be like, ah, no, he's kind of old now. That's all that he's going to be this whole movie. Like, it felt like there could have been more
00:11:31
Speaker
nods to the greater DC universe like they're in the animated film you get Shazam as Captain Thunder and you know all these different things and it felt like this was very safe for the people who weren't DC fans of like oh you're still gonna understand this and I think they could have at least thrown in a couple more nods to the greater
00:11:52
Speaker
DC universe than they did. I don't know. That's where it kind of felt safe to me in some ways. And I can see Haley's very vividly disagreeing with me on some of this. So I'm very curious to know. I feel compelled to defend this movie for reasons that Scotty said at the top, that it has been through development hell. And you're what you're saying, you don't know if that's an excuse. But you want them to bring in a bunch of characters that
00:12:18
Speaker
I'm going to say a broad audience may not have any familiar. I mean, look at the reception to the Blue Beetle trailer. Everyone's like, oh, it's Iron Man. It's like, no, it's not. You just don't know this character. And I think that a bunch of cameos stuffed in just of the DC characters might have been even a bigger disservice than what they did do, which was they did play it safe. I think they almost I don't know if they had a choice given everything that went on.
00:12:48
Speaker
with this movie.
00:12:50
Speaker
I don't know. Yeah, like one of the biggest things that social media has asked for that I've agreed with is having a movie with Michael Keaton as old man Batman and him training the new Terry McGinnis with the Batman Beyond storyline. So it's like a part of me wanted to hear some type of reference to Terry, but for all the reasons that you just gave, like it makes sense not to do that. They honored, you know, certain things like the Red Dawn storyline and parts of Flashpoint.
00:13:19
Speaker
that we appreciated but even with the animated universe like flashpoint came across because they just needed a hard reset they did that with the comics a bunch too and initially when the dceu had a release slate and did the flash i was like
00:13:37
Speaker
I was confused why they wanted to do Flashpoint so early. It's like you're in the early stages of the DCU, like build up this character. There's so many villains in the Rogue Gallery that you could be going from. It makes no sense. But then once things started to derail and, you know, progress the way that they did, it was just kind of like, well, Flashpoint is our hard reset. We're switching into the DCU with James Gunn. James Gunn now, like, let's just hit that button and go with it. So, you know, it's kind of sad to see because
00:14:05
Speaker
As much as I enjoyed it, there was so much more potential. In regard to the comedy aspect, I think the two big things for me as a fan of the Grand Gustin TV show was when
00:14:21
Speaker
he got his powers for the first time I started running and his clothes lit up and I was like, Oh, he's about to catch on fire. And then wanting to phase and going to the floor like all that stuff was predictable, but just like so well delivered. I just I love the the comedy and all of that and just understanding the quirks that Flash has to go through.
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah. Hailey, I think you mentioned the physical comedy that Ezra Miller was able to deliver. And I found myself, the moments that really resonated with me both times were Ezra Miller's, it feels like their improvisations. When Barry went to go get the beers and phased through and grabbed the beers from his neighbor and then came back through and he's like, got beer, I keep those in my fridge. It's like those little things. That's like, you're Ezra Miller. You know that's Ezra Miller doing that.
00:15:09
Speaker
Yeah. And then it was all shooken up. Like when Barry opens it and it explodes on him and Iris is just cool as a cucumber like, I'm just going to gloss right past that. And the three times a closet door opened up and shit just came flying out. Yep, that tracks. Yeah.
00:15:31
Speaker
I would even say, emotionally, Zu, you said you didn't think it hit. The only other movie in recent memory that's made me feel like a bad child, like a bad daughter, was the movie Brave, which is animated, so it's very fitting that I bring it up on this podcast. But I remember seeing that with my best friend, and we both walked out in tears, and we were like, we need to call our moms, you know?
00:15:53
Speaker
I felt that from Ezra, especially at the end when he is stuck in this time loop with Otherberry. I don't know what else to call him other than Otherberry. And Otherberry keeps trying and he's realized, no, I have to let her die. And what a horrible, and I think that
00:16:13
Speaker
him just standing there and doing nothing and saying nothing was more emotionally impactful to me than if he had a mental breakdown about it kind of a thing, because that's a hard pill to swallow. And knowing that it's all on you to do that. I was like, I better text my mom after this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:36
Speaker
I do want to give kudos to that final scene in the grocery store where he had to say goodbye to his mom and she offers him the hug and everything like that because it was really, really well done. We talked about Ezra Miller's ability to deliver on the comedy front, but that emotional display there was
00:16:54
Speaker
really heart wrenching. And I think one of the saving graces of the movie is in terms of like, talking about did they spend enough time with Barry versus all these other characters? I thought that was a very satisfying conclusion and really felt real. So props to the movies for at least delivering on that front. Yeah. Hard hitting had the movie ended there. Yeah, the hard hitting mom moment for me was when young Barry didn't know
00:17:26
Speaker
why Old Barry was there when they were in the Batcave and he was just kind of like, why is this a big deal? And like, he just turns around and yells at him the way that he exploded. And it was like, you don't understand. You need to appreciate her more. You need to be more grateful for what she does. How dare you use the toy that mom bought us as a dartboard target and
00:17:43
Speaker
That, oh my god, that hit me really hard. Like the original Yu-Gi-Oh cards that my mom got me because it was my sister's birthday and she wanted to get me something even though it really broke or like sitting here displayed because I still had those set aside from like everything else. So little things like that. It's like my mom got me this. How dare you disrespect it is such a huge thing.
Flash vs. Flashpoint Paradox: Storytelling Differences
00:18:09
Speaker
Well, another thing I wanted to bring up is like you talked at the beginning about how we use loopholes to refer to this as animation, but I have to say some of the CGI and this thing, like we don't even have to have a loophole. Like that was pure animation that we were seeing, especially when he was in the Chrono Bowl.
00:18:27
Speaker
with the the speed uh in the speed force there and i've seen the director and andy moussieti come out like after the movies come out now and kind of defend it and say that was an intentional choice like it's supposed to look not completely real because barry is seeing things through a lens within the speed force and i kind of tend to believe him because it does seem so blatant that it seems intentional but it just seems like a really
00:18:51
Speaker
bad choice to me like whoever was like putting eyes on this thing and said yeah let's proceed with this aesthetic like i think was the wrong choice it really like took me out of the movie and like i think the ps5 graphics i'm seeing nowadays look better than those like those are like early ps4 graphics like
00:19:07
Speaker
Honestly, honestly, I agree. It like just because it was an intentional choice. I apologize. I don't know if it was a good choice. Like that's really good. Because the Corona Bowl, that got me a little the babies I think was where I was just like, I can't take any of this seriously. Like they are so just they look like not even dolls. It was worse than dolls. Like that was that was a lot of the time that I was like, I get what they're going for here. But it's just not doing it for me at the end of the day.
00:19:38
Speaker
I was the monster laughing when he put the baby in the microwave. Don't get me wrong, it was funny. I was like, that looks still running. It hasn't been, it hasn't been plugged for a while. Like, how does it ding?
00:19:55
Speaker
But I laughed. What's what's funny is that when we saw that CGI in my head, I was just kind of like, oh, this is definitely intentional. Like this looks like after the whole Henry Cavill debacle with his mustache. I was like, yeah, this was an intentional choice. It's not a great one, especially when was it for you? Forgive me. It's Christopher Reeves. Christopher. Yes. When he popped up and I was like, this is how you're honoring him by making his face look like that. Hmm.
00:20:24
Speaker
I thought he looked really good. Oh, okay. I'm like, I clearly came onto this podcast to like this film too. Which is great. We love that you're good for that. It's great that we have like both ends of the spectrum and it's like, I don't regret watching this movie at all. I just, I guess I just had higher expectations for it.
00:20:47
Speaker
Yeah, I just wish that DCU did better as a whole. I'm just kind of mad at the whole situation with how strong Superman be Batman in my opinion started off there's there was just too many too much interference that made
00:21:03
Speaker
a good thing bad and then DC as a whole just isn't viewed the same by the average movie fan anymore because of like the amount of people that just shit on DC in general when we have the DC animated universe when we have young justice when we have
00:21:19
Speaker
Just incredible stories and incredible series and incredible characters that have been around longer than Marvel. The fact that they're just disrespected so much and nobody can come up with the solution to bring them back to light and bring them back to the appreciation that they deserve is what bothers me. Can I ask specifically how you feel the character was disrespected in this one? Just the same thing that we were talking about a bit being
00:21:48
Speaker
just production hell like there should have been another flash movie that led up to this there should have been more time for this character to develop more stories for him to have more reasons for us to care about him and care about him his relationship with his mom like it's Ezra Miller's
00:22:03
Speaker
acting that sold us to it. And it's our understanding of this character by having things to refer to. But like the average fans that I watched with like didn't get to appreciate the same because it was like why, why would the average fan care about his relationship with his mom outside of the acting performance, right? Sure.
00:22:22
Speaker
Like, we've had multiple Batman stories for us to understand his relationship with his parents. We don't have that from a visual media perspective with Flash unless you watch the TV show or watch Flash One Paradox or read the comics.
00:22:37
Speaker
Sure. Okay. Yeah, I think I had that. Oh, no, I was gonna say if I have to tackle on or tag on rather, it's it's a disrespect in the way of having to share the screen so much and not being able to fully. Yeah. Let the character be expressed because.
00:22:54
Speaker
There was one gripe that I had that I've kind of gotten over a little bit, but I got a little bit of Barry Whiplash that I loved what they were doing in the first chunk of the movie before he goes back in time. And I'm like, oh, this is a really fun Barry. But then the minute he meets the past version of himself, he has to become adult version of Barry while dealing with this very childish version. And I'm like, I kind of wanted to see more of the fun loving Barry that wasn't just straight a child.
00:23:23
Speaker
And I've I've kind of come to terms with it comes back in the end because of that emotional performance, but it still was very much like let Barry be Barry. Don't throw him into these like three different scenarios where I have to try and figure out what was the real version of the character.
00:23:39
Speaker
especially again, to casual fans, because I did see this with a couple of other people and talk to some other people who aren't as big into DC as me. And they're like, Why was it a big deal? Like who? Why did his mom get murdered? What was that about? And in my head, I'm like, they didn't explain that at all. That's a whole other thing. But like, yeah.
00:23:55
Speaker
There are so many little things that I feel like could have been flushed out. And instead, we were thrust into all these characters. And I know it contradicts my idea of like, oh, why didn't we have more cameos? But it was also like, no, Henry Cavill, no greater DC nods. It was just like, oh, we're in a different world now deal with it. And I think he suffered the flash suffered.
00:24:16
Speaker
The last time that we saw The Flash, he had his first fight ever in Justice League because he typically just pushes people. And then we went to him needing the time travel. And like we were robbed of what could have been a cool Zoom story or could have been a Eobard Thard story.
00:24:33
Speaker
Eubard Thon story. So there was, there was just a lot of people there. Can we fix that in the edit? The power of time travel.
00:24:52
Speaker
We can go back. The time travel part was probably, besides the post-credits scene, was probably the low point for me just because it was super fast. I would agree about that. He just goes from running to being in the chronoball in no time, not super realistic. But what's funny is the stuff with his mom.
00:25:11
Speaker
We got more of that in this live action film than we do in the comics or in the flashpoint paradox where they don't really touch on it at all until the end when it's revealed that that was the event that started all of this. And so I appreciated that at least they gave us some time with Nora. And yes, they left it unexplained who killed her. Maybe they're going to do that another film in the future. Like who knows? But yeah.
00:25:40
Speaker
I don't know. It's funny. It's like my big gripe with the comics when Andrew was on our show last week was you don't even see Barry going back and saving his mom. You just wait till the end of however many comics that was and Eobard Thawne is like, Oh, you killed your mom. And that's what happened. And it's like, when did that happen? We just have to take this villain's word for it.
00:26:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's like the one area that I think the CW TV show did better than either the Flashpoint Paradox or this movie is actually like spelling it out for us that Yobard Thawne was the one that was responsible for her death. And yeah, I think maybe the movie could have been a little bit stronger if that was explained a little bit more, but
Justice League: Flashpoint Paradox Strengths
00:26:27
Speaker
I'd like to take this opportunity to pivot a little bit and start to talk a little bit more about The Flashpoint Paradox, which I think the real title is Justice League, The Flashpoint Paradox. It came out in, yes, 2013. And it's just one of the strongest entries in the DC animated film verse. I will say it really holds up. But on my second viewing of The Flash, having just rewatched The Flashpoint Paradox, I thought one thing that
00:26:55
Speaker
animated film did stronger for sure is I liked that Barry kind of just woke up in this new world and had to acclimate and figure out what kind of happened like I felt like that just like worked stronger narratively for me and I was trying to think about how they could have done that with this live action version but it would have involved like a lot of rewrites because like so much of this like
00:27:19
Speaker
hangs on the can of tomatoes. And even my friends, when we saw it the second time around, they were like, all of this was just because of a can of tomatoes. And like, yeah, but I just, I think that makes for a more compelling journey for Barry, like him going, like proceeding through this new world, not knowing what's going on and to find out that it was actually his fault. Like, I just think that works a little bit stronger in terms of like a character arc.
00:27:47
Speaker
And that's another cool thing about Flashpoint Paradox is us as fans of DC content and understanding just enough of origin stories like all those flip-flops that we saw out of Flashpoint Paradox made sense. Superman being out of the light for so long was probably the only similarity that we had from these two movies in that regard, but they took
00:28:12
Speaker
the Red Sun storyline of him being in Russia, and then the fact that it was Supergirl instead of Superman, but then Thomas Wayne being the one who survives and actually kills was huge. Cyborg kind of didn't really change much, but then the whole thing between Aquaman and Wonder Woman, like, had the DCUs succeeded, like, we probably could have been able to hit something more of this magnitude, too, which is one of those things we're just kind of never going to get now.
00:28:42
Speaker
If they hadn't done the two berries, they could have done more of that storyline. But because they chose to do two berries, it doesn't work quite as well because you're always having OG Barry explaining to other Barry, but not really explaining to him what's going on.
00:28:58
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, I wonder if that was a symptom of not having an origin film that like this was an air quotes origin film of us seeing Oh, what happened when he first got his powers kind of, you know, learning through that and it was an interesting narrative choice, but I do agree like talking about the animated film, it was so strong because we have this competent Barry Allen at the top of his game.
00:29:23
Speaker
just going back in time and being like, okay, now how do I figure out what I did? Or what happened originally? And how can I fix it? You know, knowing Batman, knowing all of these heroes across the board and doing it, they played the similar card. But for some reason, it just felt so different in the live action compared to the
00:29:46
Speaker
other and I think it's largely because it was hand wavy time travel in the movie. Don't get me wrong, the spaghetti explanation, top tier, I had no questions after the spaghetti explanation. You know, I like to question time travel on the show. I have nothing to say they did a great job with that.
00:30:03
Speaker
But it's the fact they didn't actually do anything besides the spaghetti to say why Michael Keaton was him. It's just like, oh, something happened in the time. Don't worry about all these changes. They happen. Whereas in the Flashpoint Paradox, you see, oh, there are these differences and you kind of get these nods to different backstories and different things being the reason at the end of the day of like the parallel
00:30:26
Speaker
decisions that were made after Barry saves his mom. And I think that's a really cool thing that this movie does well. And then it carries into what is the next Justice League films after that in the animated universe, because you can see the ramifications of the decisions. And they did it an hour and a half.
00:30:45
Speaker
The whole spaghetti analogy reminds me like Batman had a very pointed line where he said, you may have seen movies in the past where they tell you, you make a change and it branches off into a new timeline. I was like, are they throwing shaded in game right now? That's a pretty big swing for them. If we're going to go out, we're going to go out swinging.
00:31:12
Speaker
Well, I guess like another similarity, I do agree that like most of the DNA in terms of like the flashpoint story is Barry going back in time and choosing to save his mom and resulting in an else world. But yeah, apart from the similarities between
00:31:29
Speaker
Supergirl and the Kal-El in the animated film that was deprived of sunlight and made very thin, unexposed to the world. And even with Batman, even though it wasn't Thomas Wayne, it was like an older, more grizzled Batman. I feel like the similarities were enough for me to kind of rock with that. I mean, it's Michael Keaton, so there's always going to be a soft spot there. Gotham being safe was an interesting touch.
00:31:57
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But I'm also thinking how like the movie kind of opened with like the Flash working with the Justice League and like, yeah, in the movie, like it didn't come to a head until, you know, Diana popped up and we didn't see Aquaman until, you know, the post credit scene or anything like that. But I did find myself noting the similarity there. I was like, OK, yeah, this is like definitely embracing the fact that like the Flash is a member of this larger team and like that
00:32:26
Speaker
motivates a lot of his decisions going forward, especially when he finds himself in this new timeline in both versions, like, Oh, who, I gotta find Batman. Batman's the one that's going to know what to do. Yeah. It hit a lot of the beats. It didn't follow exactly, but for what they were trying to do, they picked up more of the storyline kind of than I expected them to even Barry, not having his powers is straight from flash point. So yeah, good call.
00:32:55
Speaker
It did just enough. And that was a grisly scene. When he first got in the chair, I was like, they're not going to do this. There's no way they're going to do the thing. And just like they wasn't as bad as the comics where he's like ground hamburger meat. Yeah, it was funky. Yeah. But it was still pretty raunchy. Yeah. I don't think I got to.
00:33:17
Speaker
Because you watched Flash from Paradox for the first time like last week, right? Yeah. I don't think I even came around to asking you what you thought of it because I wanted to ask you here. What did you think of the movie overall? So I had we just read the comics we just recorded with Andrew and then I watched that movie and I was like, oh, it's beat for beat the comics with a little interlude that gave it a little more of a
00:33:39
Speaker
set up with Eobard Thon. God damn, that name is hard to say. You can just say Thon, we know. I can't remember that they change, they deviate a little bit from the, but otherwise it's pretty much exactly the comics, the core storyline. And so I was kind of like, okay, well, I just saw the comics like in animation form. And it was good. I mean, of course I liked it. I liked all the voice actors and
00:34:07
Speaker
You know, they had a lot of really greats in there doing the voice work, but it was, I think because I just read the comics, it was just kind of like, okay, I just saw that again, you know?
00:34:21
Speaker
air quotes deviations from the comics are actually the adjoining comics, because there's all this stuff about like Lois Lane in the movie and there you have to see Aquaman and Wonder Woman together. Those are those are like 60 other comics outside of the main Flashpoint story.
Animated Movie's Tone and Character Portrayals
00:34:39
Speaker
And that's just covered in those that they sprinkle into the film. I think that only like big deviation is Batman shoots him in the head instead of putting the sword through him.
00:34:48
Speaker
I think that's the only major because I was upset that in the comics, they don't go into the whole Batman uses guns, because that is like a big crux of the Flashpoint Paradox movie is like, Oh, this Batman kills people. He is about it. And it's Charlie Quinn off the roof. Yeah, yeah.
00:35:15
Speaker
Well, yeah, I have not read the Flashpoint comics myself, but just, you know, going off of what I know that was brought up here and what I saw in the animated film, like the live action movie, like had its dark moments and, you know,
00:35:30
Speaker
especially that scene where Barry was trying to get his powers back. Yeah, it's pretty grotesque. But the animated movie is pretty violent. There is a fair amount of bloodshed. Diana is not taking any prisoners. She kills the Shazam kids and has no qualms about it whatsoever. Lex Luthor gets killed in his one scene that he's in, which is a great scene. That was an awesome deathstroke scene there. Oh, yeah.
00:36:01
Speaker
This is a hard pivot here, but I do have to say this version of Aquaman, his face, too muscular. It's like- Kerry Elwes Aquaman? I mean, the voice performance was great, but every time he was on screen, I was just like, how many muscles in this guy's face are there? It's just like- He was Arnold Schwarzenegger nagging it up with his shoulder muscles up to his ears, and then that tiny little raisin head, and then all I could think of was Kerry Elwes' face on that head.
00:36:29
Speaker
I love that. Because I love Carrie Ellis. Yeah, that's it. That's it is that shoulders. Good Lord. He did not miss shoulder day. Yeah, some of the proportions. Some of the proportions were a little comical, like having the shoulders be so broad leading into like these tiny little wastes. It's just like, how would you even stand up right? You would tip over. Oh, yeah. Wonder Woman to Captain Harrow was what I was trying to remember.
00:37:00
Speaker
Oh, yeah, that was something. Yeah, I think that's fine. That is actually a joke in the comics, though, is like the proportions of the characters, because I think there's something about like, oh, like Batman, you're Thomas Wayne. Superman is skinny cyborgs just kind of wide. Like that's the only thing that they can say they've changed about him. And it's the only thing they change about him in the movie as well as cyborgs just a little wide. He's just a bit more Buzz Lightyear. Yeah.
00:37:29
Speaker
I love this iteration of Cyborg though in the movie. I thought Michael B. Jordan just super brought it with the voice acting. But I love that he's like, he's the leader. He's the one that's taken on the role kind of a Batman or of Diana where he's the leader of the troop and he's trying to rally everybody to fight the great evil because he's not always that person. So I like that part of him.
00:37:52
Speaker
Yeah. Boy Scout character where Superman normally is, but Superman wasn't on the scene. So yeah, I thought Michael B. Jordan did a fantastic job like broadcasting that range of emotion, which is, you know, it's always fitting for a character like Cyborg. Like he's supposed to be the cold robotic one, but a lot of times he's the one with the most heart and emotion.
Supergirl's Potential and The Flash Ending
00:38:12
Speaker
And we got to see his raw heart exposed in this one. Yeah.
00:38:16
Speaker
being a range of emotion, the way that Supergirl snapped in the flash when she said, Oh, yeah, the child didn't survive. I was like, give me more of her. Now, this is incredible. And then they kept killing her like, Oh, that's not what I asked for. It's a complete opposite of what I asked for. Multiverse keeper and James Gunn's world, please. Yeah.
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah, and I guess like I see why they had to do it, but I think that's another like going back to the flash like I think it's kind of a shame that like Michael Keaton's Batman and Supergirl just kind of get written out because that's their fate.
00:38:57
Speaker
Again, we didn't get to spend all that much time with them, but it just kind of like, I would have liked to like, Barry at least been able to say goodbye to one of them. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, I, I liked a decent amount of what Supergirl was. And I want like another film, because there was also so much of her character that just was predictable. Like when she showed back up at the cave, like, I'm going to forgive mankind, let me get Barry his powers back. I was like,
00:39:24
Speaker
No, come on, like give us something more. But then like you said, her snapping and her death scene was over the top and amazing. So I want more of it. And there is a lot of controversy going on with this movie right now, because I think it was leaked like yesterday or the day before that they shot three end scenes for this movie. And it's like three different courtroom scenes. There's the one we got
00:39:47
Speaker
There's a courtroom scene where there was allegedly Henry Cavill and some of the other Justice Leaguers in the courtroom with Barry. And then there was one where Michael Keaton and Supergirl were both there.
00:39:59
Speaker
in the courtroom to be like, oh, he rewrote the timeline entirely. So now he has his friends here with him in the courtroom. And instead we have the, I mean, amazing George Clooney cameo, but that being the end note was like a little interesting and also just brings in so many canon questions of just like, what universe does this exist in now? Because I don't know what to think going forward.
00:40:24
Speaker
nipple suit universe. The canon event. This is the way the last three DC movies, I feel like our original Justice League actors kind of got to say farewell in a way, because we had Superman pop up in the end of Black Adam.
00:40:50
Speaker
We got Wonder Woman come up at the end of Shazam. I wasn't expecting her to show up in this one, but then having Batman and Aquaman in this one, it was just kind of like, well, let's just go out with a laugh and some good times and some woos for each of them, because you may never see them again. Well, except for one. I think one is going to have a lost ending. Yeah. Yeah.
00:41:16
Speaker
Well, I that's my interpretation of that post credit scene is the comment of in every universe there is you is the idea of like, oh, no matter what new DC universe is created, he will be Aquaman. Like that was them throwing that in there to be like, hey, this is this is what's happening.
00:41:34
Speaker
Which didn't make any sense because earlier in the movie, he didn't exist in the other universe. Yeah, this isn't Hugh Jackson Wolverine where there's only one. You can probably be replaced in a couple of years. Sorry. Jason Momoa is a Nexus person. I don't like it.
00:41:55
Speaker
I did want to bring up, I appreciated the visual continuity between... This movie came out in 2023 and Man of Steel came out in 2013, but I felt like the depiction of the Kryptonians battle style was really well translated. Because what I remember on all my rewatches of Man of Steel is like, this is how they should do a Dragon Ball Z movie. And I felt that in this one as well. It's just like, yes, do a Dragon Ball Z movie exactly like they're doing here.
00:42:23
Speaker
Yeah, Sex Niner does a really good job at his action sequences. Yeah. And I do agree that this was captured well, especially with the line of, oh, I didn't realize they were that fast. It was like, butcher it faster. But that was one of the continuing things was that Kryptonians were able to at least be able to track the flash of speed. Yeah. If not keep up with it. Right, right.
00:42:53
Speaker
Well, I also wanted to at some point touch upon like, I guess the flash didn't really have like a big bad like we normally have. Like it ended up being this alternate version of Barry.
00:43:06
Speaker
But I remember seeing the trailers and thinking, all right, we've got two versions of Barry. Is one of them going to turn out to be Reverse Flash? Because I know Reverse Flash has a history of altering his appearance to look like Barry because he idolizes Barry so much. So I thought that was a possibility. But as soon in the battle, as soon as he got that barb sticking out of his arm, I was like, OK, I know exactly where they're going with this now because
00:43:30
Speaker
The first time we saw that really older, decrepit version of him knock Barry out of the Chrono Bowl, I was wondering, is that their interpretation of the reverse Flash or is that Savitar? Because it looked a lot like the Savitar they did in the Flash TV show. And as I recall, spoilers for that season three of the Flash TV show, but Savitar actually ended up being
00:43:54
Speaker
an alternate version of Barry. So it's interesting how much they actually ended up taking from that CW TV show. Yeah. First I was like, is it black flash? Is it a time rate? And then once we saw them in the time was the time chrono chrono bowl.
00:44:15
Speaker
Chrono ball it being like Batman's old suit and then having blue lightning I was like, okay, we got the black and blue this could be zoom and then the Savitar says I was like I guess they tried to mix a little bit of Everything and just make it their own thing for this one. Mm-hmm. It was an interesting choice I saw what they're going for I just I don't think the impact all that landed as well as it could have and
00:44:40
Speaker
Yeah, like they had the reveal, and then they defeated him. Like there wasn't a lot of back and forth of like, no, you I need to stop you because we can save mom, it was just like, you shouldn't, but I'm going to and fight like they're they I, I felt like we could have seen that character pop up a few more times and actually be an antagonist as opposed to just be something in the background. Zod was great, though.
00:45:06
Speaker
They gave telegraph reverse flash. They gave other Berry yellow headphones. I gave them the yellow hoodie. And so they tease us that that was what it was going to be. Yeah. But like we're saying, it wasn't really any of those things. It was just kind of a conglomeration of all of them. Yes. Yeah. Well.
00:45:28
Speaker
Any other strong thoughts or opinions we need to put out there before we start to wrap this thing up?
Favorite Moments from The Flash
00:45:35
Speaker
The funniest thing in this movie was when Barry realized he didn't have his power, and when he was doing his run in the ice skating style, and it was running like a dweeb in circles, I lost my mind that shit was so funny. That was the highlight of the movie for me, was how good that was.
00:45:56
Speaker
I don't even know how they got out of there though. There was security all over the place and now he can't run fast. I wanted security to just tackle him while he was running around like a goof. I was waiting for it.
00:46:12
Speaker
other very phasing naked through the floor was pretty funny. I think coming back like came back with the tambourine after running through the streets phases through the floor comes back with the pot and I'm just like, Oh, no.
00:46:32
Speaker
It made us laugh. Really was watching in the Flashpoint paradox enough for you to now sit down and watch the 12 other animated films that they set up with this or? Sure. I feel like that's commitment. She's coming back. Oh, you're gonna bring me back then. Sure. There is no they're just they're nice. And they're not like, you know, they're not three hours long. And so it was nice to sit down and watch it and
00:47:02
Speaker
It, I wasn't complaining when I was saying it was like watching the comic book. It was just, I did them so close together. It just was kind of like, boom, boom, boom. I liked it very much. If it like, keep your interest enough. Yeah. Oh, I love DC animation. I love Young Justice.
00:47:19
Speaker
Yeah, let's go. That does make me think of a question I had. Did the grifter pop up in the comic books because you had like this whole European force that had like Etrigan the demon, the Canterbury cricket and then the grifter. And I thought the grifter at first I was like, oh, this is an alternate version of the Red Hood. But then I did a little bit of research to know he's his own separate character that came from the Wildcat Wildverse, something like that.
00:47:44
Speaker
Something wild storms. I'm sorry for those people that know what I'm talking about. He's butchering it right now. Yes, he shows up in the comics and that's one of those. They do a whole spinoff, like six issue run of the resistance in Europe. Like they have their own little thing outside of the main story, but they do show up once in the main story to be like, hey, read this thing. OK. Oh, it's me.
00:48:14
Speaker
Six-three. Are you the grifter? Yep. My husband's the grifter. I've never seen Zuhair and the grifter in the same room. I'm just saying. I will say another thing that they did like the comics was everybody died in the alternate universe. Because that definitely happened. Flashpoint. Allegedly. Whatever, Andrea.
00:48:41
Speaker
I'm just a multiverse. There's no telling. DC Comics and time travel sucks. That's all I'm going to say. I'm glad we got the conversation going again because I feel like I'd be kicking myself in the pants if we didn't talk about like one of the best parts of the animated movie and the way it ends with the Flash being able to deliver this note from Thomas to Bruce and actually seeing Bruce display some emotion like that was what a way to end it.
00:49:09
Speaker
That's my favorite part of that storyline. Yeah. And I think that's why I wanted the Thomas Wayne thing was to see Ben Affleck act his butt off and like get emotional about something with his father. Like that would be his wish. Would you have kept Michael Keaton as Thomas Wayne?
00:49:29
Speaker
Yeah, so my hope for the movie, like it was a Hail Mary pass, but I was hoping because in all of the trailers, they only refer to Michael Keaton as Batman. They don't actually refer to him as Bruce Wayne. So I was like, Oh, are they hiding? Michael Keaton is actually Thomas Wayne.
00:49:45
Speaker
And he's going to be the brutal version. And then when Barry goes back, it's going to be like I was hoping they would parallel that. It's neither here nor there that they didn't. But they it was just like a Hail Mary. This would be really cool if they did it, because it would also explain why he's that much older than the Bruce that we've seen previously.
00:50:03
Speaker
So the way that you started with that, I thought you were talking about Ben Affleck being Thomas Wayne. And I was just thinking of like, Barry seeing Ben Affleck's Batman and being like, Oh, Bruce and him boy, why'd you use that name? Why'd you say that? Oh, yeah. Almost exactly what happens in the comics. Yeah, he says that you can say my dead son's name one more time. I dare you.
00:50:27
Speaker
This doesn't even bring back the whole Martha thing over again. Michael Keaton, Batman fangirl, Hailey is glad they didn't do Thomas Wayne because they did so many nods to the 1989 movie. And there were some really small minutia ones, but I loved every single one of them, especially the Joker Bag laughing. Oh, it was great. You talked me into watching that, so I'm glad that you watched Flashpoint Paradox in return.
00:50:56
Speaker
Yeah, with one thing that I'll miss with the DC EU is that we've had some incredible Batman fight scenes like him in the warehouse and Batman v Superman and then what they did with Keaton in Russia, like, I hope they can do more with the patents and stuff going on. But what those two scenes did for me was just like five minutes each of
00:51:45
Speaker
Batman glory.
00:51:51
Speaker
back. And as convenient as it was for everything to be bulletproof, like I love getting to see that scene of him just fully battered and just like the ramifications of like still getting shot at by AKs. Still can't turn his neck though. Yeah, but he can spread his cape out and deflect all the bullets while Barry's vomiting in the background.
00:52:18
Speaker
I hope we moved you a little. See, I did enjoy this movie. I was just wondering. There's a lot to enjoy about it. I'll watch it again. All right. Well, I will open up the floor one more time if we have any final thoughts, opinions, theories, speculation. One more thing. No, I'm good.
00:52:48
Speaker
I'm good. All right. All right. Well, Haley, you told us a little bit at the front up top rather about what source pages has going on. Anything else you'd like to share with our listeners? Just a few like to learn more about the characters or storylines that are being covered in all of these properties, Marvel, DC, and sci-fi stuff outside of it. Give us a listen and follow along or read along and
00:53:14
Speaker
Thanks, if you do listen, we appreciate you. And thank you, Andrew, for being on our show to read the comics. We always appreciate his expertise. Yeah, I wouldn't call it expertise. There's too much going on in DC comics to keep up. Just take it and go. I will run just like Barry as fast as I can. Run, Barry, run. Run, Andrew, run. Well, Andrew, you want to chime in now and let the people know
00:53:44
Speaker
Well, what I like got to share. Yeah, like Haley said, definitely go have a listen. If you want to hear more about the comics, we definitely talked a little bit here, but there was a full conversation with myself, Haley and BBK over on the source pages. And then as always, you can keep up with us and them on all of your favorite social media platforms. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram animation deliberation and on Twitter at animation to live one.
00:54:08
Speaker
Yeah, I will say if you liked this kind of comparison and there are other movies that you would like us to do similar comparisons with, you know, hitting us up at any of those places is a great place to make an episode suggestion like that. I think we, I'll speak for myself, I really enjoy doing this comparison. So if there are some other ones in the catalog that you all as listeners would really like to hear about, please let us know. So Harry, you had an eventful week here.
Closing Thoughts and Social Media
00:54:34
Speaker
What's going on?
00:54:35
Speaker
Yeah, so we got to go to Awesome Con with 323 with Reed Murphy. Just a huge shout out to Reed, Emily, and Scott for bringing me along to this and having an incredible weekend of seeing some sweet cosplayers, some incredible art, which I spent a lot of money on and then more Funkos than I needed.
00:54:54
Speaker
Just that was my first big con and to be on a stage in front of about 100 people and play that nerdy family feud was just a wonderful experience. I got some B-roll footage of my favorite artist, but unfortunately my social battery just died by the last day to be able to interview the number of people that I wanted to.
00:55:14
Speaker
I did get an interview with Dominic Glover. So this will be animation liberation's first video footage that's going to be coming out as soon as I put all that stuff together. So excited to share that with you all and get your thoughts. Hopefully this is just a door for us to get into more cons and have more opportunities to interact with everyone. So shout out to 323 with Reed Murphy. We did do a Sunday paying over episode live at the venue to just kind of cover our experiences and stuff. So yeah, nothing but good times over there.
00:55:45
Speaker
Right on, good stuff. As for myself, I'll take this opportunity just to plug the Stranded Panda Network. There's a host of wonderful shows there. Benjers Assemble has a lot of great things going on between Indiana Jones coverage, Mission Impossible coverage, which Hailey and I are appearing on.
00:56:03
Speaker
the newest show on the Stranded Panda Network, Multiverse News. You know we're going to be talking about the Flash's performance at the box office as well as all the blockbusters coming out this summer, so please check that out. Ashley Show had their one-year anniversary. What's that? Ashley Show had their one-year anniversary. Oh, yeah, yeah. Bill and Ashley's terror theater, right? Yep. How has it already been a year?
00:56:31
Speaker
Happy anniversary. Two years, oh my gosh. Yeah, you guys started like a month after us, right? Yeah, we're close. Creepin' up. There's no sibling rivalry here. Sorry, a few of our favorite shows. All right, well, thanks to everyone for listening. And please keep tuning in. That's T-double-O-N-I-N. And as always, stay whelmed. Until we have more DC content, muscle muscle.
00:57:04
Speaker
I got nothing, sorry. Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash svchat. Tune in next time and remember, stay well.