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What If..? Episode 1 - Captain Carter
791 Plays4 years ago
Marvel Studios first animated property that ties directly into the cinematic universe is finally here!! We excitedly dive into the series debut in all it's glory focusing on What If Peggy Carter took the super solider serum!
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Transcript
Introduction & 'What If?' Episode Discussion
00:00:00
Speaker
On this episode of Animation Deliberation, we ask and answer the question. What if? That's right. What if is finally here and we're tackling the first episode. What if Captain Carter were the one to receive the Super Soldier Serum? We're going to get into that right after these ads. We have no control over.
00:00:16
Speaker
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Meet the Hosts and Guest Andrew Rogers
00:00:47
Speaker
Sing along if you know the words. A one, two, three, it's time for animation deliberation. A conversation and a celebration of our favorite action animated series. Yeah. All right. Welcome back to animation deliberation, the podcast that takes action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. I'm your host, Jay Scottie St. Clair, and I am joined as always by Zuhair Ali. What's going on Zuhair? How are you?
00:01:16
Speaker
My eyelids are very heavy, but my voice is here. My enthusiasm is here. And despite my exhaustion, we will talk about MCU's first animated series. Word, word. I'm glad you're here and I'm glad your enthusiasm is here. It wouldn't be the same without you. And joining us, we have a new voice, but a voice I'm very excited to include.
00:01:40
Speaker
Andrew Rogers, someone that's been participating in the Stranded Panda After Dark activities. We've made friends with him there, and it's great to be able to bring him on. He's a big fan of animation, and I will let him introduce himself. What's up, Andrew? How are you? Thanks for being here.
00:01:57
Speaker
Well, thank you guys. I am doing fantastic. I am so excited both to be here and about everything that What If has to offer. And Marvel Animation is now probably at the top of my list for things to be excited about. So this is going to be fun. What podcast got you into Stranded Panda stuff?
00:02:16
Speaker
I actually started with the MCU cast, as most people probably do. And I actually started right around Falcon and the Winter Soldier, which is where Jay Scott, you were a guest. And as soon as I heard that you guys were covering Young Justice on here, I was signed up because Young Justice is, in my opinion, one of the best animated shows, especially for comic books.
00:02:43
Speaker
Oh, yeah. So yeah, I joined on you guys and listened to the entire backlog of three episodes in like a day and then ever since.
Inspiration from 'Young Justice'
00:02:52
Speaker
Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. You just woke me up and made my day. Thank you for that.
00:02:57
Speaker
Well, thank you guys. That means a lot, yeah. Our passion for Young Justice is right there with yours. And that's a show that's near and dear to our hearts, is the show that this show was born out of. But this is actually a good opportunity. I like that Zoo Hair kind of took the lead there. While we've got you, before we get into the nitty gritty here, what are some of your favorite animation series before going into What If?
00:03:20
Speaker
Um, well, I grew up on Star Wars, the Clone Wars. I mentioned Young Justice, um, and 10 Pokemon stuff like that was what I grew up with. And then recently, um, my partner got me into anime and she has just had me watching all sorts of things in the last year. So I've grown such an appreciation for the art of it, the way that it's directed, the way that it's written. It's all fantastic. And I will go on record right now saying into the spider verse is the best Marvel thing ever.
00:03:47
Speaker
for the animation and story and the master class that that is. So I definitely have a lot of love for different forms of animation all over the place. I look forward to hearing what you have to say when we start getting into the Demon Slayer and My Hero Academia coverage. Yeah, Demon Slayer is definitely top of the list for anime and My Hero is on the top of the watch list.
00:04:13
Speaker
Yeah, we're already off the rails here a little bit. But yeah, I'm currently in the middle of the My Hero Academia binge and very excited for the opportunity to cast about it. And Demon Slayer, of course, is excellent. Well, we're not here to talk about that stuff. Let's talk about the animated series that we are here to talk about.
Impressions of Marvel's First Animated Content
00:04:30
Speaker
What did you guys think about Marvel Studios' first animated content? What did you think?
00:04:38
Speaker
Take it away, Andrew. I mean, I have nothing but good things to say. I was blown away from the first moment that I was watching it, both the style of it, the storytelling. It was everything that I wanted it to be and more. And at this point, I've watched it about three times over. And each time it's been amazing. And each time I've noticed something new, a character I missed, a line that I missed, there's just so many things to go over in all of this. Agreed. Agreed. Zuhair, how you feeling?
00:05:06
Speaker
I really enjoyed it. It gave me the same level of giddiness that the first two episodes of WandaVision gave for me because there was a lot of establishing what the show was going to be, but it was just a galore of references from everything that we know and love from the MCU. So it was a really great start. The story was fantastic. I loved the way that they rolled into everything and kind of
00:05:29
Speaker
They explained what they were going with, but there was a lot of trust in the audience too, and I'll get a little more into that stuff later, but for the overall gist, I was very happy with my initial doing. Okay, yeah.
00:05:45
Speaker
I'll be curious to see what you're kind of alluding to there, but what did you think about the story that was presented and the question that Awatu presented
Character Exploration: Peggy Carter
00:05:56
Speaker
us with? Is that something that either one of you guys had a strong interest in? What's your take on the character of Peggy Carter in the role that she serves in the MCU before all this, and then having her perform this role of Captain Carter? Because I'm on record saying that it
00:06:15
Speaker
this episode just basically proved that she was a better candidate than Steve. And I love Steve Rogers as Captain America. So that feels a little bit like sacrilege, but it's hard to argue.
00:06:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think you were right on the money when you talk about Peggy being a better candidate. I never would have seen it before. She always just kind of seemed like she was fighting the good fight, but never would have guessed that she would have been as big and strong and powerful as she was and as quickly that she became effective, whereas Steve had to
00:06:48
Speaker
somehow jumped through all sorts of hoops until he could get to the front lines, she just took matters into her own hands and said, I'm going to be the super soldier, which was something that I never expected them to do. And I think is a fantastic look at the character that the movies never really got. The TV show got a little bit deeper into Peggy's character, and it kind of shows her power. But I think without the agent Carter show, I never had an appreciation of what Peggy could be until all of this. That's interesting.
00:07:18
Speaker
I'm going to bounce off of that a little bit by saying that I wasn't the biggest fan of the Agent Carter TV show, but I loved the Agent Carter one shot. I thought that was a great representation of her character and what she was capable of.
00:07:36
Speaker
I think of Paul Hoppe every time I say these words now. As a martial artist, it's interesting seeing the progression of Steve Rogers throughout the movies. When he first got his powers, he could barely throw a proper punch. He was strictly relying on his strength and speed that he got from the serum. As we go into Avengers, he develops boxing skills. As we go into Winter Soldier, MMA, and then later on, you see more weapon proficiency.
00:08:05
Speaker
Peggy had all of that before she got the serum. So it was really cool. And that was, I'll tap into it a little bit, but them trusting the fans. And for us to know that she's been a spy for a while, she's insanely accurate with a firearm. So throwing the shield wasn't an issue. She's combat proficient. We saw a lot of that in the one shot that I love so much. So when she got the serum, it wasn't like,
00:08:36
Speaker
It wasn't a big surprise that she was able to like take up the mantle right away because she was capable of all that and that serum enhanced everything that we already knew of her and everything that we loved about her. So it just made her 10 times cooler.
00:08:51
Speaker
because she is a soldier and a spy she has like that military discipline so her being able to flex her powers and just be like that's brilliant and just been super giddy and happy and excited of like oh i'm going to f these dudes up was just such a wonderful wholesome moment because it was the side of peggy that we didn't get to see too much because she had to like maintain her composure
00:09:17
Speaker
So there wasn't anything outside of what we knew of her character. And they still got to play with different things that stood true to what we would expect of her. Oh, for sure. For sure. And I, for one, I'm glad that they chose
00:09:36
Speaker
this question to be the first episode, the premiere, because like everything we saw in the trailer, all the scenarios that we're going to see are all fascinating and I'm super excited for all of them. But it would have been, honestly, would have been kind of tough to wait more than a week or two for this particular story because First Avenger is near and dear to my heart. It's probably my favorite phase one movie. That First Iron Man's a strong contender, but I really do think it's
00:10:01
Speaker
first Avenger. And you're kind of talking about putting the trust in the audience.
Animation Style and Castle Scene
00:10:05
Speaker
Like they really did put the trust in the audience because you basically have that entire movie truncated into a 30 minute episode. And it really does like ask you to, you know, this story already. So we're taking, we're looking at it through a different lens. And with that in mind, just a different perspective. What, what did you, what did you guys think about the animation style? Were you, were you on board? It's a little bit of a cartoony, like exaggerated style. That's, that's why I ask.
00:10:32
Speaker
Well, I'll say at first I was definitely a bit off. I didn't know how I felt about the cell shading just from the trailers and everything else like that. But as soon as I got in, the way that they did the lighting, the way that they animated the characters and their movements and mannerisms,
00:10:49
Speaker
it just took me right into the scene and i completely fell in love with the way that everything looked how some of it was painted some of it was cg some of it was 3d some of it was 2d it just knocked my socks off and i have so many great things to say about both the art style but the direction and lighting and so many people deserve so much credit for how good a lot of the scenes looked and i have like four written down in front of me that just
00:11:18
Speaker
I could talk for an hour about if we had that time. Let's hear the first one. What do you got? I mean, the biggest one that stood out to me was the castle infiltration scene right at the end there. The first bit of that is 30 seconds where they did. I guess you would call it a long take if it was a live action film where they decided to have the cameras pan around the characters as though it was actually on a tripod or as though it was on a track.
00:11:48
Speaker
And they didn't really need to do that, but instead it just immersed you right in the action as you jump from character to character without ever having a hard cut in there. It was just so perfect to give us a look at everyone moving into the castle, Peggy leaping over the wall with the silhouette of the moon behind her. It was just...
00:12:09
Speaker
So breathtaking and the castle looks painted. I'm not sure if it actually is because it's mixed in with all of the CG animation. Yeah. There's brushstrokes that they intentionally put in there to make you notice it as it bounces off the light that aren't on the characters. So it was a really nice mix of all these different pieces of it. Hmm.
00:12:30
Speaker
So yeah, not to jump to the end of the episode, but that was a big one that stood out. That's quite all right. And that was definitely a striking scene and definitely her jumping and being silhouetted by the moonlight was very iconic. I'm really glad that you bring up the camera work there because that's one of my favorite things about
00:12:47
Speaker
animation is just, given the right creatives at work, you can do things with the camera that you could just never do in live action. And as far as the backgrounds go, they definitely did have that painterly, hand-drawn, hand-painted feel to it. And it really did just come together to create such a cohesive and pleasing aesthetic. It feels of the MCU.
00:13:17
Speaker
but it also has that fantasy element that just goes right into hand with the nature of the show and the nature of a character like Iwatu. Zuhar, what did you think about the animation? What were some of the sequences that stuck out to you?
00:13:32
Speaker
So you guys kind of took the words out of my mouth in regards to like how all the background scenery was very painterly like I like that everything looked like Brush strokes like you could take those backgrounds and just like hang it up on your wall somewhere. It was really beautifully done My only I don't even want to call it a negative. It's more nitpicky for me I felt like the the character movements were kind of clunky and
00:13:59
Speaker
It didn't seem clunky in the fight choreography at all, but it seemed like during the general movements or maybe like just running towards the chamber and stuff like that. It just seemed...
00:14:09
Speaker
clunky. I don't know if that's just me or if it just seemed a little off. And then the lighting. It's not that the lighting was bad in any way. It did look really good. But it's it's kind of unfair. I've gotten so used to the high level of contrast and dynamic range in bad batch that when you see the shadows being just black and the highlights being blown out, it
00:14:37
Speaker
I just I wanted a little more of that bad batch art. And again, it's it's not it's not fair. Obviously, I'm comparing two different things. And it's just it's just a matter of preference. It didn't look bad at all. Just out of personal preference. I've gotten so used to that high level of detail that I know Disney is able to do with the bad batch stuff that I was like, man, I wish they did that just a little more in
00:14:59
Speaker
this series, but it's perfectly fine if they can't all look the same. I'm curious about some of the clunkiness that you're referring to. I'll have to go back and comb through the episode, but I'm wondering if it's like, Andrew, you brought up Spider-Verse, and I know one of the things they did in Spider-Verse is they actually played around with the frame rates to give it almost like the feel that you were flipping through.
00:15:23
Speaker
a comic book to kind of get that motion. So I wonder if maybe it was something that was done intentionally that just didn't end up working that well. I didn't notice. I thought the for the most part the the action was really smooth and like I felt like
00:15:38
Speaker
They leaned into like, one of my favorite things about cartoons is some of the exaggerated things. Like when somebody gets punched in the face, like you can get that full, their face kind of stretches out to the other side to give it like that full impact. Like I think about that montage. One of my favorite things about the first Avenger is its use of montages. A lot of people criticize films for using montages. They think it's lazy storytelling, but I love a good montage and that
00:16:04
Speaker
sequence for Peggy showing off her punching ability in montage form was excellent for me. Oh yeah, the montage. There were more of the long takes and everything else that you could talk about. The only thing I wish it had, or I was expecting it to have, was the onomatopoeia as the comic strips were popping up. I was ready for a pow-wop as she hit him with the shield and everything else. For sure, for sure.
00:16:29
Speaker
That may have been a bit heavy-handed for the MCU. I'm glad they did it in a way that you could picture that. Like, I didn't think of that as I was watching, but now that you mentioned, I'm kind of like replaying some scenes in my head. Like, they did have the slow motion as the opportunity to put that, so it's like your brain can kind of like fill it in. So it's like, it's, I guess, an acknowledgement to that without directly having to do it. Sure. That's, I think that's a good assessment there.
00:16:56
Speaker
Especially because Into the Spider-Verse did it and I think they don't want to copy their Sony counterpart too much. Maybe. Yeah, and I like that they are making sure to differentiate themselves as much as they're both Marvel. I couldn't see these two worlds necessarily crossing because they did such a good job of doing them differently. For sure.
00:17:17
Speaker
all valid points, all valid points. Now, in addition to getting to see Peggy in such a different role, that's all a lot of other characters get to serve different roles.
Steve Rogers as the Hydra Stomper
00:17:30
Speaker
Some of them were
00:17:32
Speaker
very similar to the previous versions of themselves we've seen. Howard Stark comes to mind. He didn't really change all that much as the nature of his relationship with Peggy, I guess, a little bit. But Steve, we get to see Steve as the Hydra stomper. What did you think about this proto Iron Man, this World War II version of Iron Man? I thought it was
00:17:53
Speaker
Really cool to see the first thing that crossed my mind was, you know, the dialogue that Tony Stark has with Steve Rogers about how he hated him because his father wouldn't stop talking about him.
00:18:05
Speaker
Like imagine him growing up having to deal with Captain Carter and Steve Rogers being the first Iron Man. Like he must hate both of their guts so much. It was an interesting twist. I didn't expect. There was a lot of stuff like I was doing my best not to look into this, so I actually had some wow moments for me.
00:18:28
Speaker
Which was what I was hoping for and one of the ones was the fact that they got the Tesseract first and they were using the Tesseract as the power supply for the arc reactor because in Iron Man 2 we see that They had the blueprints to like come up with the stuff, but the technology wasn't advanced enough. So they were using the Tesseract Kind of design like he had the blueprints of it So the fact that Howard Stark already had these ideas for and it was like hey, let's put it into
00:18:58
Speaker
you
00:18:58
Speaker
this Mark 1-looking Iron Man suit was like, oh, that is brilliant. And even though we saw that suit in the trailer, I didn't think that Steve Rogers was operating it. I was like, I'm just going to shut down my brain and not think about it whatsoever. So when he got in the suit and they had the story of him getting shot in the leg, like Haley Hobbs pointed out, that was kind of a nod to War Machine, too, because he got a leg injury and was still operating with the suit. I was like, oh, good call.
00:19:29
Speaker
I didn't catch that. So leg injury, operating in the suit and then being powered by the test wreck. Like there were so many little nods to everything. It was just so beautifully done. The fact that Bucky was like, I think that's one of my friends too. And he was just going in and wrecking shop and they had the little like lightning laser thing. And I was like, this is so good. I am loving what they did with this thing. I need to order the Funko like sometime this weekend.
00:19:56
Speaker
Yeah, and bouncing off what you said about the Tesseract being acquired by them first, I noticed it was an interesting ripple effect that that caused, that I didn't expect to see coming, that Hydra no longer had the weaponry that they did because they didn't have the Tesseract to test that all out. So that was why the train scene was different because they couldn't attack them with Tesseract weapons. The montage did not have any of the big armor juggernauts. Right.
00:20:24
Speaker
It was just a whole different view of Hydra because they didn't have that power anymore. Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's where the scenario changes the most, I would say. It's the fact that they have to pursue an entirely different entity. And we know that they're basically trying to open up a portal to allow what they call their interstellar warrior
00:20:50
Speaker
which we get to see some tentacles. It was definitely a tease for me. I've been awaiting the appearance of Shumagorath in the MCU. And they showed us just about everything except for the eye. It was like they gave us as much of Shumagorath without it being Shumagorath as possible. I just did want to say I appreciated the fact that Red Skull kind of had a similar fate where as we didn't know at the time when we first saw when he picked up the tesseract what happened to him, we thought for all intents and purposes, you got vaporized there.
Tentacle Monster Scene Analysis
00:21:18
Speaker
So again, it's kind of his own like,
00:21:20
Speaker
hubris is his own undoing. He's tapping into power that he doesn't understand and that tentacle doesn't hesitate to just wrap him up and crush him pretty quickly.
00:21:29
Speaker
What article are you going to reference here? What do you got? So this is from CNET. I'm kind of reading this article on episode one, just kind of as a reference of the events in case I missed something. But the way that they worded this, Jay Scottie's line was a perfect segue to what this says. Quote, We don't get a good look at the multidimensional tentacle monster summoned by Red Skull.
00:21:54
Speaker
But it immediately smushes him because he's apparently an idiot in every reality. Head writer A.C. Bradley confirmed that the monster was inspired by the abelisk from the epic opening of Guardians of the Galaxy 2. Peggy slays it with a sword much like Gomorrah did in Guardians 2. It also has a slight resemblance to Shumagorath, another intermenture and technical beastie from the Marvel comics. OK, I did have the abelisk somewhere in the back of my mind as well.
00:22:23
Speaker
I thought we may have been getting a Star Wars crossover and that it was a Sarlacc. Oh, I thought that too. Because I had not seen anything with tentacles like that properly. So as soon as I saw the maw between the tentacles, I was confused to say the least. Especially when the mouth and teeth opened up. I was like, yep, that's it. Yes. That's a good call. That's a good call. I haven't watched Guardians 2 too many times. So that whole scene just didn't click to me until I read this. And I was like, oh, I gotta bring this up.
00:22:54
Speaker
Hmm. Yeah, I'm glad you did. There are so, so many nods and callbacks and I'm sure I probably missed out on a few of them, but the one that definitely sticks out is Bucky when he gets saved by Peggy on the train top and she grabs him by the arm and you know, he gives that, you almost ripped my arm off. Wink nod. What were some of the other ones that you guys caught? I'd be fascinated to hear.
00:23:19
Speaker
There was a big one that I caught. It wasn't until the third time, and that's why I wanted to mention that it took me so many times. They actually animated Tommy Lee Jones's character of Colonel Chester. He's in the beginning right off to the side. He actually takes the bullet for Peggy.
00:23:39
Speaker
And she screams no as he gets shot. And that's how we actually end up with Colonel Flynn being rude to her this whole time is because Tommy Lee Jones's character couldn't keep going. And I was absolutely astonished that they not only took the time to point out why we had a different Colonel, but he looks exactly like Tommy Lee Jones as well. It's uncanny. I can't wait to rewatch and catch that. I'm so glad you brought that up. That's, that's incredible. That's awesome.
00:24:08
Speaker
Yeah, I think that was one of the things that, like, I've only watched it once, but I think that was one of the things I noticed, but I didn't think anybody else noticed. I haven't talked about it. But Jeff brought up, I can't remember who told him, but Jeff Randall said that, what was the replacement's name? Flynn?
00:24:25
Speaker
Yes, John Flynn, voiced by Bradley Whitford. Flynn was in the Agent Carter one shot. He was the douchebag that was bossing around and saying that she couldn't do anything because she was a woman type of thing. And they had her in there as a formality. I was like, oh, that one didn't click to me.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah, this is just, it's just that example of the connected universe that Marvel didn't have to do all these things, but they did and it pays off every single time you notice all the fun, interesting things. Oh, for sure.
00:24:58
Speaker
So, let's talk a little bit about the vocal performances. Obviously, we had Healy Atwell returning to the title role of Captain Carter. Jeffrey Wright made his debut as a WATU. He's going to be our guiding voice through these proceedings. And while I'm bringing him up... Amazing. Oh, he sounds incredible. And he has that gravitas and that presence. But that was one thing in terms of nitpicking.
00:25:24
Speaker
Again i try to go into things without expectations or assumptions too much but knowing that this was an anthology series i really thought that he was gonna serve that like. Rod sterling and twilight zone or the crypt keeper entails the crypt where. We actually get to spend a little time with him at the beginning of the episode yeah you hear his voice and you see him in the stars and what not but i'm still optimistic that we're gonna see a lot to play a more active role.
00:25:50
Speaker
in these stories going forward. But I'll get off my soapbox there. What did you guys think about Awatu? Did you have any standout vocal performances? I mean, Bucky is always fun to have. Whether he's animated, whether he is live action, there's just so much behind the character and the voice and
00:26:14
Speaker
You could tell that there was a lot of fun going on behind the scenes in the booth recording scenes for almost all of these voice actors. But I think he would be the other standout. And then the only other note that I had is the fact that Stanley Tucci actually came back to voice Dr. Erskine for all of the 10 seconds that he was on screen. And I found it amusing that they got a lot of the small actors to come back as well. They did a good job of
00:26:42
Speaker
going right back into the characters and it didn't take you out of the world by any means because they were familiar again. Yeah. Stanley Tucci has appeared in not one but two Transformers movies, so I'm not quite as surprised that he's willing to do anything to pad his pockets there, but I'm kidding for the most part. I did like Bucky a lot. Bucky had the funniest line of the episode for me. Who ordered the calamari?
00:27:10
Speaker
I think I have to agree with Bucky being the most impressive because we get to see like the charisma of Bucky Barnes in First Adventure, but then we never get to see it again until Falcon and the Winter Soldier because he's just Winter Soldier at that point. So we've only had two instances where we get to see the true Bucky Barnes. So being able to see more of that in the show was actually like really delightful because he is very witty, super charismatic.
00:27:38
Speaker
and seeing how capable he was as a Howling Commando because he was the only one who died in the line of duty. So at this point, actually every Howling Commando seems to have survived. So it was a really cool story. I liked seeing him back in there. He was the highlight for me outside of the main character.
Voice Acting Highlights
00:28:00
Speaker
The whole thing was just so well done.
00:28:07
Speaker
What did you guys think of Josh Keaton? Josh Keaton did the voice of Steve Rogers, so he filled in for Chris Evans.
00:28:16
Speaker
I think he did a good job. It took me a little while to get used to for sure. I am extremely curious if he's going to continue playing Steve Rogers in this. Solely for the purpose in the credits, they only credit him as skinny Steve Rogers. So I don't know if when he goes through the transformation or becomes Captain America, because I think we've seen snippets of some of the other episodes.
00:28:40
Speaker
Is there going to be a different voice actor that tries to do more bravado with it? I think he did a good job with being the skinny scrawny guy. I don't know if I could necessarily envision him dancing around saying I could do this all day. Interesting. Interesting. That's a good pickup. I didn't notice that in the casting that his credit is skinny Steve, but great catch.
00:29:00
Speaker
Yeah, it was too bizarrely funny that it felt like I had to have had some significance, mostly because I feel a connection to that character because I'm a scrawny Rogers. Fair enough.
00:29:13
Speaker
I enjoyed his performance. There was a couple of things where, well, there was a couple of points, especially in the bar scene, where it's like he delivered some dialogue and I had to tell myself, it's okay, it's a different voice actor, just adjust. Because you tried, because you know me, like I try to get lost in what I'm watching as much as I possibly can. But that was one of those things I had to turn off the comparison part. I was like, stop comparing, just let this diet deliver how he wants to.
00:29:42
Speaker
And because we're used to, like, Chris Evans' deep voice even being on Skinny Rogers, like, maybe this actually was more appropriate, but we're so tuned in to that deep voice that it was that one scene, particularly, I was paying more attention than I should have. But as a whole, I think he did a fantastic job. And those are big issues to fill.
00:30:11
Speaker
Oh, for sure. Yeah. Now, I was just going to say, I think that bar scene is just a little awkward in general. So then having those characters kind of do all of that, it made it obvious that it wasn't our usual confident Chris Evans. Awkward, how so?
00:30:31
Speaker
Yeah, I that bar scene was a bit too much of a blow off of the issues that female Peggy was having trying to be a woman in the 40s of power and having a not confident scrawny sounding voice.
00:30:46
Speaker
kind of playing the pick me guy being like well no one listens to me either because i'm not big and strong well you know that now that he got the armor everyone's going to listen to him and peggy had to fight newton tooth and nail to get there
00:31:01
Speaker
I just felt it was a little bit of an off-putting scene to begin with, that they brushed aside the issues that they brought up in the first place and did a good job of acknowledging female rights issues, only to then brush them kind of under the rug. I wasn't necessarily a fan of that, so the voice acting, I may have a skewed perspective in that scene specifically.
00:31:23
Speaker
Interesting no, and I think you're you're right about that. I think disney has kind of a history They always like to kind of like skirt around subjects. They try to want they want to satisfy as many people as possible So it's yeah, we are, you know bringing up the issue so you can't knock us for that But we're not going to do enough to offend anybody else on the other side. So yeah, I do agree with you there, but I Not that scene in particular but I I looked at it a little bit of a different way It was the fact that yeah
00:31:52
Speaker
So in this, what if scenario, Steve Howard start, obviously he has the Tesseract. So he has the capability. It's a little bit of a different scenario, but the fact that he makes the hydro stopper for Steve and like nothing like that was even ever offered to Peggy. And it just totally should have been, I thought it, it was kind of like without saying it out loud, it was kind of showing that, but I agree with you. It could have been definitely more tackled a little more deftly, but
00:32:20
Speaker
Yes. And not to say they didn't do a good job in other scenes. That one specifically, I think, is my biggest hand raise. Because her giving it back to Flynn was phenomenal. Oh, yeah. You're lucky to be here, Colonel.
00:32:35
Speaker
Oh, I absolutely love that line. But J. Scott, it's really interesting to say that I didn't think of that until this moment. But in Captain America, First Avenger, we have the scene of Howard Stark failing to make or failing to present his flying car. So because Howard Stark got the Tesseract before Zola did, it's interesting that he took the Zola road of like, oh, what can I make with this?
00:33:02
Speaker
Like the Iron Man suit could have been a concept when Steve Rogers was Captain America and Peggy was still a spy.
00:33:09
Speaker
But now that this scenario has changed to the extent that he actually has the Tesseract and he's playing that Zola role of, ooh, what kind of weapons and toys can I make with this? It makes sense that there's access to an Iron Man suit now. He didn't have that option because he was still dealing with 1940s technology. Huh. Of course. He he did, though, because we saw in Endgame when they went back in time, both his Howard and Peggy were at that base where they sold the Tesseract from.
00:33:38
Speaker
Oh yeah, I can't believe he, yeah. So there was a point that he did have it, and he just never took this path. Hmm. Hmm. Not to stomp on your point, Zuhair. Nah. It was really really good until I remembered that endgame scene. Well, maybe he just wasn't creative in the excitement of having a Captain America.
00:34:00
Speaker
For sure, for sure. And that's what's so great
Speculating Captain Carter's Future
00:34:02
Speaker
about this show. It's all it takes is one question, one event, and they really do embrace that whole, you know, if a butterfly flaps its wings, it will create a hurricane elsewhere. And that's really what we see happening. And I'm really excited the fact that we already know that we're going to get a season two. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it's confirmed that Captain Carter will be
00:34:22
Speaker
appearing again in season two and there are already the rumors out there that she might be making the Transition to live-action. She might show up as soon as dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness. What do you guys think about that? I hope that she does but I'm not gonna be like I'm not gonna join the cult of people that want Andrew galler field and Toby McGuire in spider-man 3 if it happens great if not I'm just gonna trust Marvel to make some good stories and
00:34:53
Speaker
Yeah, I'm with you there. I'd love to see it, but I never hold them to those expectations. I'll be anxiously awaiting whatever they present me with, and I'll try to go in with leveled expectations. Andrew, what do you think about these rumors and the future of Kathleen Carter?
00:35:12
Speaker
I think it would be fantastic. I definitely want to see more of the story because they left us on the perfect cliffhanger. I want to know if Bucky still turns into the Winter Soldier, or is it Steve turning into her Winter Soldier, or what happens with that? And then on top of that, if we really want to get Mephisto fan theory on this one,
00:35:32
Speaker
I think there's actually a possibility that, yeah, I know. If she were to show up live action, it could be between the past and the future. She goes into the Tesseract realm, goes to the future, fights Shuma Gorath in whatever live action movie, and then pops back out for season two of What If. Ooh, that'd be cool. Yeah, that could be the whole reason that she was able to fight it off this second time when she couldn't fight it off in the castle.
00:36:00
Speaker
But I'm on board with seeing Haley Atwell on screen with a sword and shield. Sign me up now. Yeah. Yeah. I made a really bad joke with Jeff last night. We were talking about the train scene. And I was like, if Steve had a jacked up leg when he went down, if he got abducted to be the Winter Soldier, would he have a metal leg?
00:36:28
Speaker
Maybe. That would kind of be interesting to see in action. I'm just kind of imagining scenarios where he almost uses the leg like a pogo stick and he's doing these crazy aerodynamics and whatnot.
00:36:46
Speaker
You sound like you just made up a DC villain. That could be fucking Batman. I don't know if this is any better, but it reminds me of Iron Man 3 when he was trying to break free and he only had the boot in one of his gauntlets, so he kept jumping up on that one foot. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good call.
00:37:07
Speaker
Well, uh, I, it sounds like we are, we're winding down here. So I will open up the floor to you guys. Whatever final thoughts, whatever standout moments, whatever things that you absolutely have to say about this premier episode of what if, what do you got? I got two things. Okay. We didn't talk about the train scene nearly enough. And I thought that that was the best part of the episode. The fact that they had the zip line, but
00:37:38
Speaker
hydro stopper actually had to like slow down the train first was really cool. And at this point, I had no idea what was going to happen. I was just on the edge of my seat, just totally locked in, watching each frame by frame.
00:37:52
Speaker
And you almost ripped my arm offline. It was incredible. I loved it. But still after that, I was like, what is going to happen? I really don't know. I don't know what Red Skull's agenda is. I don't know what they're going for. I don't know what the plan is. So when Steve like pulled the train open and went in, I was like, what's happening? What's happening? And I saw the explosives. I was like, oh, snap, this is not going to be good. Saw the explosion. It broke my heart like right there. I thought he was dead.
00:38:21
Speaker
I didn't think he was going to be winter soldier or anything or that.
Marvel's Audience Trust
00:38:24
Speaker
I just thought he was straight dead, especially with how passionate Howard was about the suit being indestructible and he was dead set on it and this and that. Dude, that broke my heart. That actually got me because I didn't see it coming and just how well they did it. It was just so good. And that I guess I never said what I teased at the beginning.
00:38:45
Speaker
I love how much Marvel is trusting the audience at this point. Because like you said, they had to put two hours worth of First Avenger into like 20 some minutes of this What If episode. And because they know that MCU fans have seen these things over and over again, those emotions relay with it too.
00:39:08
Speaker
The music, the emotional build up, the timing, all that stuff didn't need to be there because our subconscious filled in the gaps of what they had to rush through. And it didn't feel rushed because we've experienced it and it's like,
00:39:23
Speaker
in our our mental state so heavily that it was really easy for us to like understand the intensity of everything that was coming and that was so beautiful and so genius of them to trust us with so that they could focus on stuff that they really wanted to to make the story different than what we've gotten yeah agreed well well said
00:39:48
Speaker
Yeah and jumping in on that I at first I thought it was a little fast and then I realized like you said they trusted us and they we didn't miss anything important they gave us the fun they gave us the action sequences that just again
00:40:03
Speaker
animation is the perfect way to show all of this action and fights and without having to suspend disbelief at any point. I was fully believing everything that I saw without having to worry about bad CG or stunt doubles or anything. I was just locked in the whole time and Marvel just giving us things that we wanted to see was perfect and
00:40:26
Speaker
how you talked about them trusting us. I also think they did this perfectly for those of us that they couldn't trust that aren't the major MCU fans. I think this was an amazing first episode of What If that they gave us a story that most of us kind of knew already, even if you're not a diehard, you've probably seen or know the story of the first Captain America movie. So if you're not a diehard, this was a way to ease you in, show you we're going to change one small thing at the beginning.
00:40:54
Speaker
and see what happens those of us that are big fans picked up on the easter eggs and what if you rip my arm off and why things were different but casual fans could still enjoy this thoroughly all the way through and it's a perfect way to get you adjusted to things are gonna get a little crazy cuz i think this is gonna be the last
00:41:14
Speaker
linear to a movie episode maybe Star-Lord is T'Challa or T'Challa's Star-Lord will be linear to Guardians I think after that we're gonna start going off the rails so them easing us into it I think this was a really really good call and a great way to start the show on a note that has me just excited to see where this goes in every single way for sure agree agree just two thoughts based on some of the things you brought up there in terms of
00:41:42
Speaker
And I said it, too. Yeah, they put a lot of trust in the audience so that we didn't need to see all of the beats from First Avenger. But talking about the future of Captain Carter, I guess one of the scenes that I would like to see or the equivalent of the scene, just just just to have I guess, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, it would have already taken place in this. What a scenario regardless. I'm thinking of the scene where Steve
00:42:05
Speaker
dives on the grenade because that's just one of my every time I see that scene I still get goosebumps so I was just curious what the equivalent for Peggy would have been but we all know that in that scene she made the move to dive on it as well it was just the fact that Steve got there first so.
00:42:20
Speaker
And then the other thing is just talking about the animation and being able to do things that you can't do otherwise, especially with the action. I did want to bring up the, that she goes against that bruiser, the guy, you know, that calls her a little froy line or whatnot. Jeff and I did talk about it and Jeff loved that scene and I did too, but how do we have that scene in live action? That would have been a rated R scene. You cannot have a man's face being slammed into the concrete like that. And in retrospect, I really wish I would have said creator face.
00:42:54
Speaker
I love in that scene that she threw the shield down. She beat everyone else with the shield. The minute she said fragile, throws the shield down and shows him that she is not messing around. It was amazing. And that was a nod to Captain America Winter Soldier when he goes against what's named Jack the Leaper.
00:43:18
Speaker
And he was like, oh, I thought you were more than just a shield. Yeah. And both of those scenes kind of remind me of Indiana Jones a little bit as much as like, these are like kind of like swashbuckling stories. It always, for whatever reason, reminds me of in Raiders of the Lost Ark when the guy, I'm getting in the weeds here, but basically he's got the huge dude that outmatches him physically and he basically has to push him into the propeller blade. But for whatever reason, whenever you get like that hulking person to go up against, I always think about that. But anyway.
00:43:45
Speaker
Any other things you guys wanted to bring up about this first episode? While I was thinking about it, we didn't really
Role of Music in Storytelling
00:43:51
Speaker
talk about the music. Did the music strike a chord with anybody? I think it did a good job in evoking that feel of that movie and whatnot, but it didn't really stick out to me otherwise, which is not necessarily a bad thing. I think that means it's doing its job. I didn't notice it in a bad way either.
00:44:09
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's just reinforcing what I said about they kind of just trusted us to bring the emotion from what we've experienced from past series. So they didn't need to go too crazy with the music because the build up for what they were doing kind of filled in need for that. Sure.
00:44:28
Speaker
Yeah, I think it brought familiar emotions for sure. There was a lot of emotion in the first watch because of familiar soundtracks and match cuts between the live action and animated. I think it was almost intentional that they didn't want the music to overshadow too much. And I think that's always Marvel's intention is that they leave it on the more subtle side and let the scenes speak for themselves. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:54
Speaker
What did you want to say about this bar scene, Mr. Ali? What you got?
00:44:59
Speaker
Oh, so, you know, we don't like to get too political into things or whatnot, but I like the fact that they actually have that conversation. And to all the listeners, this is the perspective of a single minority male. I am just one individual, it's my opinion. If there's something you want to discuss, shoot
Portrayal of Strong Female Characters
00:45:18
Speaker
us an email. I'd be happy to hear a woman's thoughts on how they perceive the scene.
00:45:24
Speaker
But overall, one of my favorite things that MCU does is that they don't have the, hey, look at this strong woman because she's a woman, she's powerful and capable and this and that. They actually take a character, give her background, give her story, give her reasons for us to admire, and then it just happens to be a woman.
00:45:54
Speaker
They're so good at the character development. They're so good at how they portray these people and making us like actually want to appreciate everything about them because
00:46:05
Speaker
I think it goes for a lot of like male characters where it's kind of like you have kind of have like the superhero like this is what we expect of them type of thing. And whether we her are hated as you know, our own opinion, but with Black Widow with Gamora with Scarlet Witch with Peggy, they give it so much time to develop and so much character like we genuinely care for these characters and for these people and for their personalities.
00:46:32
Speaker
And when they have their badass moments, we cheer because they actually took the time to build it up. And they don't need the dialogue of where women were capable and powerful because their actions show that their ability to handle situations show that their ability to
00:46:53
Speaker
process and move forward and be the badass people they are is something that I've appreciated about MCU and I wish that other studios would take note on.
00:47:05
Speaker
Because, oh my god, did the CW stuff drive me nuts with that? Oh, goodness. Oh, yes. Yeah. It's funny. I think that the in-game moment is probably one of the areas that they stumbled a little bit. And I do like that moment. It does make me roll my eyes a little bit just because it is like, man, I don't know why I'm being so negative here. Because you're right. More often than not, they do such a wonderful job. That's kind of why that one sticks out a little bit, yeah.
00:47:33
Speaker
It's very subtle and you're right that actions speak louder than words and these are very competent and capable characters and yeah, it's just a joy to watch them and to see them do what they do best and that's kicking ass be it live action or animated form. I like that scene the first time I watched it because like it didn't occur to me how many
00:47:57
Speaker
women characters they had developed because it was typically like one woman, like in a group of guys in different property. Of course. So when they actually were on screen at one time, I was like, holy crap, that's a lot. Of course, afterwards, it was just kind of like the hey look it up type thing. But it was cool on first watch for me personally, because I was like, wow, that's a lot of them. They've been doing this for a while because it just never occurred to me. I was looking at them just individually, like per property. Mm hmm.
00:48:26
Speaker
Oh for sure. I think that scene was so powerful and it showed you the power of the women in MCU, which again only strengthens your point, Zuhair, that we didn't question that so many of these characters were female because you were just like, yes, of course I know that Wasp and Scarlet Witch and Shuri and Black Widow and the list goes on are powerful.
00:48:47
Speaker
I didn't question it. I agree. It was that second time you were like, wait, they felt like they had to justify that they had all these women together instead of just letting them be the powerhouses that they were. And I think there's a perfect counter to that in Infinity War. There's the amazing scene where it's Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, and one of the Dora Milaje all saving each other. And they, yes, Okoye, thank you. And they didn't pause on it. They didn't say, hey, look at what we're doing.
00:49:16
Speaker
It was just women fighting and being amazing and saving each other's lives. She was up there the whole time. Yeah, exactly. And they played with it. They had fun with it. And yeah, I also probably should have prefaced all of my comments earlier with this is also the perspective of a cis white male. I think we probably should have had a female on the cast if we knew we were going to jump into this, but it just kind of appeared as the conversation went on.
Listener Engagement & Feedback
00:49:47
Speaker
Hey, it opens up a dialogue. We also have enough female listeners that kind of like message us about you know what they thought of the episodes and everything too. So I generally do want to hear their thoughts on what they thought because I haven't been able to like generally get their opinions yet.
00:50:04
Speaker
That was more of a weekend goal. So yeah, I genuinely want to hear how you guys felt about that. And I think that's a great time for us to plug our email, animationdeliberationpodcastatgmail.com. Please write into us, give your thoughts about that scene, give your thoughts about that whole episode, because we'd love to hear it and we'd love to talk about it on another episode. I want so much feedback that we have to do.
00:50:28
Speaker
an individual feedback episode. That's my challenge to you. What if we got so much feedback we had to do a standalone feedback episode? I loved doing that for Invincible. And I don't think we've fully covered a show well enough to have that level of response. True. So please write in. That sounds so desperate. I think this will be a great opportunity to get more of that feedback, though. For sure. For sure.
00:50:57
Speaker
Yeah. All right. Well, it sounds like we are just about done here. So Andrew, do you have anything going on that you want to let the people know about?
00:51:05
Speaker
No, honestly, I don't. I tried to prepare for this question to say something and no, I am. I'll take this as my little time to say thank you both for having me. This has been nothing but fun. The Stranded Panda army is nothing but an amazing and welcoming community. So if you guys have not joined in on all of the chats and stuff, make sure you do that because they're fantastic and.
00:51:29
Speaker
Yeah, thank you guys again for giving me the opportunity. If things happen and you want another guest, I'm more than happy to do this again. And if you just want me to volunteer to come and read your feedback at the end of every episode, I'll just read off reviews for like 20 minutes and you can just throw it in there.
00:51:44
Speaker
No, it was an absolute pleasure to have you. You brought up a lot of things that didn't register with me. I'm glad that you got to watch it three times because, yeah, I've only seen it the once so far, but I'm absolutely itching to go back and pick up on some of these details you highlighted. So, yeah, thanks for being here. Well, I was definitely a little nervous as this is... I didn't have anything to plug because I've never been on a podcast before. So I wanted to make sure I was well prepared. So I did the whole thing to make sure that I was able to keep up with you guys.
00:52:14
Speaker
The podcast cherry has been popped. On that note, I will say thanks for listening and keep tuning in. That's T-O-O-N-I-N. Stay well. Word.
00:52:38
Speaker
Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email animationdeliberationpodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at animationdelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda chat facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash spchat. Tune in next time and remember, stay well.
00:53:05
Speaker
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