Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Business of Machining - Episode 81
179 Plays7 years ago
Moving from CNC to RNR
Grimsmo takes a well deserved break. His idea of a vacation? Renting a Tesla and taking it out on the open road to Tobermory for a coupe days. No need for new windows when you’re out in nature! And sometimes you can be most productive when you're relaxed.
The Grimsmo Shop Reaction:
“Guys, John’s gone! We can do whatever we want!...LET'S CLEAN!” The Grimsmo shop has gotten cleaner since he left it on Wednesday last week.
The best advice you can give may shock you! And it’s *drum roll please*...
Stay humble.
“Your company comes with merit, and it shows something good about your personality, but still be the kind of person someone would want to get stuck in an airport with” - Saunders
Playing fair with your customers
Saunders and Grimsmo discuss Tormach vs. vertical machining centers, and the expenses involved in software updates that you aren’t allowed to do on your own. Will their businesses have to take a page from this book in the future?
Psst...Can I Rask you a question?
Grimsmo answers Saunders query about whether he’s going to start getting into Rask production again anytime soon. Answer: it’s complicated. There’s a technical problem that needs fixing before production can start up again, and Saunders and Grimsmo swap ideas about how to fix it.
Possible Solution: The LX 160
New Training Classes at NYC CNC!
This is the first week of Saunders’ new Haas machine training classes!
You can sign up for a class here
Saunders is also working on a secret project, stay tuned into this podcast for him to announce it within a couple months.
Quick tip to avoid buyers’ remorse:
“Don’t buy the machine unless you can sell yourself on it all day long, everyday” - Saunders
Saunders Answers: Should you QUIT your job?
Hint: Make sure you don’t turn your passion into a burden, stressing for money can do this.
Is #PaulAkersMoment a thing?
Saunders gets a new setup for the camera, and reduces setup times.
Still SUPER EXCITED for IMTS! Coming up! We’ll hear a lot more about it in the next episode.
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Episode Kickoff
00:00:00
Speaker
Good morning. Welcome to the business of machining episode 81. My name is John Saunders. And my name is John Grimsmo. Good morning. Good morning, buddy. How was the trip?
Relaxing Trip and Nature Exploration
00:00:12
Speaker
It was amazing. It feels like a long time ago, even though I came back, well, Friday, today's Wednesday. But yeah, so it's gone all day Thursday, all day Friday, came back Friday night.
00:00:25
Speaker
It was utterly incredible, just relaxing and driving the Tesla, which was like the greatest thing ever. And yeah, so it's just driving around and then, you know, it's got this huge computer screen. So you're watching the map the whole time. And then I see this, you know, around the next bend, there's caves. And I'm like, I could totally go for some caves right now. So I parked, went for a hike. And I was like, this is awesome.
00:00:54
Speaker
That's cool. It was totally random and totally epic and just amazing. And there's nobody there. And the forest was utterly quiet. Like I haven't heard that kind of quiet in a while, even hiking around here. And that just kind of sat down for a while. And it's just like, wow, this is peaceful. And then I did that, kept driving. Went swimming in Lake Huron in the middle of nowhere. Nobody around. Huron. How far north did you go? Pretty north.
00:01:24
Speaker
Yeah. I thought you only had like 400 miles to round trip or something. Yeah. I have done a kilometers round trip, which I got under, but yeah, yeah, far enough north. And, um, wow, the lake was so shallow that it was warm, like really warm because the sun just heats it up so quickly. Um, so I, I swam for like an hour and it was just beautiful, just so peaceful, so relaxing. Tell me you brought a swimming suit. I did.
00:01:55
Speaker
I did, although there was nobody there. So, you know, anything, but, um, okay. I'm, I'm looking, I didn't forgive. I, my, my geography of the intricacies of Canada are weak at best, but I didn't realize that Huron kind of comes over to the right due north of Toronto like that. Right. So it's not like it to go, I drove from basically Toronto to Tobomori.
00:02:18
Speaker
Okay, I don't see that on the map, but yeah, okay. You didn't go up to like North Bay or Sudbury or anything? No, I didn't go around that way. I went, do you see where Georgian Bay is? Oh, you went up to that Bruce Peninsula National Park? Yes. Oh, very cool. Okay. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. Kind of across from the, we call it the glove of Michigan. Okay. At the top, across from the top of Michigan. Awesome. Okay, cool.
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah. Tell me how
Tesla Rental Experience via Turo
00:02:48
Speaker
this works. So you were all out of bed Thursday morning, you hop in the Volvo and then you drive to this male or female's house that owns the Tesla. We met in a parking lot, like a Staples parking lot. And then we were going to park the car there for, you know, two nights. And I'm like, I feel like it's going to get towed if I park it in a Staples parking lot for two days. Yeah. So I politely asked the guy after we had already become buddies, um, if I could park at his house and he's like, yeah, that'd be fine.
00:03:17
Speaker
So I parked at his house and then we geeked out and went over all the settings and everything. And, and then, uh, it was mine for two days. And I mean, he, he's the one that volunteered to put this car on true. So it's not like he should be, but it's still gotta be weird because he says he's nervous. I'm only the third person he's ever rented to. And he's like, I was nervous for everybody.
00:03:40
Speaker
Yeah, it's such a like, I don't know if you had like a vacation home and you bought it knowing you're going to rent it out. I feel like that's maybe one thing but a car is such a personal thing. Huh?
00:03:53
Speaker
So, but he was cool with it. And so you just drove away. How does, how was he going to get home? If, uh, well, I guess his wife was going to come pick him up, but we ended up driving to his house anyway. So that worked out. Um, it's like the Craigslist meetup when you're like, I've got a knife on me, maybe a gun. We're doing this in a public place all to like sell a used iPad. Right. You just never know. Right. Right. Like, yeah, exactly. But yeah, Turo worked amazingly awesome. The car comes with insurance and.
00:04:23
Speaker
all this backup protection and stuff. So I mean, it's totally legit and safe and stuff. And so I got the car, drove for five minutes to a parking lot, parked, played with all the settings for like 30 minutes. And then, and I'm like, all right, I guess let's, let's get going. And then I got to my first destination by like 1230 in the afternoon. And I'm like, wow, I really gotta find some stuff to do today.
00:04:47
Speaker
Yeah.
Reflections and Personal Revelations
00:04:48
Speaker
Right. But it was, it was awesome. It was so relaxing. It's just so, you know how it is when you go on a vacation, it really takes a couple of days before you settle into it. Right. You know, so like a day and a half in, I was texting Meg and she's like, Oh, so do you have like 10,000 new ideas to think about? And I'm like, not really. I've just been thinking a lot about everything that I'm currently working on, you know, thinking about and worry about and things like that.
00:05:16
Speaker
And it wasn't until the drive home that I started to really have these kind of revelations and kind of new thoughts and digging up things that I guess I've been suppressing and not thinking about for a long time. And that became really valuable. I didn't even really realize it until I got home. And then I was like, whoa, I haven't thought about those things ever. Right. And that made the trip worth it right there. Aside from all the fun and amazingness of
00:05:44
Speaker
being on your own and having the coolest car. Did you take paper notes, computer notes? Nothing. Really? Not really for that, no. When you say you had at the end, you had some things that came back up and it made you feel happy and glad that you did this. You did writing that down?
00:06:05
Speaker
Okay. They're big enough that they're not going to disappear. Yeah. Got it. But I find it's just like any process. I find that if I have to force my brain to use energy to remember them, it changes how I evaluate them. So I just, and it's not, I'm not saying I'm right because I've also found it. I hear you.
00:06:27
Speaker
too many lists and trying to put pressure on yourself to organize all this stuff is also has weaknesses. But I also just I get frustrated when I'm it's the quintessential in the shower going to bed at night in the parking lot. And you're like, ah, we should totally do this. I have this idea. I now force myself to write it down. And I do agree with you. I think my hesitation with writing this down is it's it's an idea that requires a list of subsets
00:06:56
Speaker
So I'm like, I'm avoiding writing that list, you know? Right. We'll just put it in the ERP, obviously. Exactly. No, that's awesome. Good for you. Yeah. Good view. So you're going to do it again, you know, more often than every nine and a half years.
Family Travel Aspirations and Guilt-Free Spending
00:07:14
Speaker
I definitely want to.
00:07:17
Speaker
travel more like that, whether it's, you know, I take one kid and we go away for a couple of days or something like that, I think, or me and Meg go away. Um, that's a no brainer, like obviously. And then of course I just need to buy myself a Tesla and that would be good to go.
00:07:32
Speaker
What's he going to say? I mean, you could do this, uh, cave trip here on trip with, uh, in, with a regular vehicle, you don't necessarily have to have the amazing, right. Um, certainly splurging is on yourself is, is fun. And you should, I never ever, ever do it. Yeah. And so this was a, an eye-opening experience, um, to be able to splurge and not feel guilty about it and be like, yeah, we can afford it. And like things are good. And the shop brand, perfectly for two days without me and all this stuff.
00:08:01
Speaker
I had a good conversation with a mentor type person and we were talking about actually sort of a very similar thing about splurging on yourself and kind of what entrepreneurs do when they hit major successes, either just cashflow or a lot of times the big numbers come. If somebody sells a company, I don't think you and I ever plan to, or certainly don't intend to sell a company. It's not what we're doing, but certainly not looking for those big numbers, you know, a hundred million dollars kind of thing, right?
00:08:31
Speaker
Right. Or even good grief, even selling the company for $6 million or something is a- It's still life changing. Exactly. Tremendous, tremendous amount of money. It was interesting because we were talking about in the context of relatively little things like Teslas. His advice, which was almost flattering because I don't
00:08:52
Speaker
know that it'll ever be relevant for us, but, uh, or me at least, but, uh, his advice was kind of like, just stay humble. Um, and I, and I, I, I'd like to think that we are, I am, and, and that won't be an issue, but, um, it's a, it was a good, just like,
00:09:08
Speaker
always still do the right thing. Having done something like selling a company or building a company does absolutely come with merit and you are a better person for it, but don't get, don't let it just still be that good. You know, it's that airport test. Still be the person that somebody wants to get stuck in the airport with because you're a good person. You don't want to just hog the conversation. You don't want to tell everybody else how good you are or how many sports cars you, like just be humble. Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:37
Speaker
I think even with spoiling yourself, it's still totally possible to be humble. I think you and I have struggled hard enough and long enough that we're just naturally like that. Like I don't think we're going to lose that. You know what I mean? But, but imagine if you get, if you get success early, you know, when you're 21 and you make a couple million bucks, you don't have the life experience to like be humble and be nice. And I don't know, not always, but
Tesla's Alignment with Personal Values
00:10:03
Speaker
But it goes back to the, yeah, totally. And I didn't mean to infer that you wouldn't, I mean, you could grieve owning a Tesla does not preclude you from remaining humble at all. And you own one because the Elon Musk and the technology and the innovation not- The whole time I'm driving it exactly like you said. It's like this speaks to every fiber of my being, you know, the way they run their company and
00:10:27
Speaker
The way I mean they don't give discounts Elon Musk pays full price for his own cars and it's just like Norseman They can't make enough we can't make enough and the ultimate quality ultimate experience It's just everything it's like so in line with who I am so
00:10:43
Speaker
My car weakness, I think I've mentioned this before, is a 1997 Porsche 993 Arctic Silver Turbo. I absolutely love that car. I've loved it for years. I loved it every time I see it in person or pictures. It's not one of those interests that changes. It just grows deeper.
00:11:02
Speaker
And unfortunately, those cars were always expensive and have gotten insanely expensive, which means no. But the funny thing is, I don't need it to brag. I don't want it to show off. I would almost be fine with, I don't know how to explain this, but I almost just want the enjoyment and pleasure of having one, either without anybody else knowing, because I'm not trying to do it as a social thing, status thing, or having one that has a Firo engine in it, because I don't care about the speed.
00:11:29
Speaker
I just want the beauty. It's a beautiful object. Absolutely. The quintessential pinnacle of vehicle design. Anyway, that's awesome. Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's, we need these grounding moments to be like, I want that in my life one day. You know what I mean?
00:11:49
Speaker
But then you make a list. And on that list is another machine, vacation with my wife, making sure there's extra or enough college money for the kids. My wife and I are starting to talk about. Or the Porsche and Timbere.
00:12:05
Speaker
You know, you don't want to let money turn it into an unfund thing in life. Like where all of a sudden it's like, well, you can't have that now because you've got new responsibilities. But the reality is I'd rather travel. I'd rather make sure I provide for my, like, you know, I probably, I think I want that, something like that. I want it for like a month and then, you know, to a rental.
00:12:29
Speaker
I looked after your Tesla thing. I looked and there's actually some, not a lot going on here in Zanesville, but there's something Columbus. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know. It, it really, you know, I got back from the trip and I was like, I thought I would be good for a while. You know, like, what do you mean my system drive the Tesla? I'm happy for a while. No, now I just want one. Okay. Like really badly. Yeah.
00:12:58
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Which is perfect. When Yvonne and I were looking at one, because she drives so much, so there's the
00:13:10
Speaker
fuel savings, like arbitrage and electricity versus gas. This is the other thing. She spends a lot of time pumping gas. She drives about 130 miles a day. So pumping gas is gone because it charges overnight. And then the safety element of the tracking system for avoiding collisions. Yes. Dude, OK. I drove probably, took probably three, three and a half hours to get home.
00:13:38
Speaker
80% of that was done completely by the car itself. You did the pilot. It's, it's ridiculous. It's not perfect, but it's, it's frigging amazing. Um, yeah, I literally actively drove for 20% of that time just for fun. Like, just see what the car could do. Yeah. Through towns, uh, you know, slowing down, speeding up. It was epic.
00:14:03
Speaker
It's phenomenal. But we actually looked mostly serious at, that's not a word, we focused on the used cars, which Tesla will sell through their systems. It spooked us for a bunch of other reasons. But I mean, it's a used car. That's fine with me. So you don't have to spend $100,000 on a brand new 100D, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. But you can.
00:14:28
Speaker
You don't want a three? You want the S? I want the S. Yeah, if I'm going to do it, I'm going to full grimsmow it. Yeah. But I was looking into it, of course, and the only downsides to the older vehicles are the technology is not as good with the autopilot and things like that, which it gives a lot of pluses to the newer ones at the expense of cost. Right. So it just thinks it got away.
Machinery Challenges and Solutions
00:14:55
Speaker
Speaking of that, I thought I'd share a fun anecdote, because as we live through it, it changes the feeling. Tormach versus vertical machining center. And there's been some chatter lately about a guy who bought a Tormach and was upset with it. And I think there's a very legitimate two sides to that story. But my point is more, when you tell people,
00:15:20
Speaker
VMCs are just more expensive. They're better, but they're way more expensive. And one of the things that we are learning is so we have the Haas and the control has a little bug on it. And our VM three is out of warranty. So I do not fall. I do not fall to Haas because I don't think I could be wrong, but I don't think this is necessarily any different between Akuma or Maury or anybody else. But actually I'd love to hear your
00:15:49
Speaker
Experience here, but they won't let you do software updates on the machine. You have to have the text come out to do that. Okay
00:15:58
Speaker
And maybe this is actually in fairness. Maybe this is one of the first times ever where there's some value to FANUC, because FANUC has just been around so long and so is so sort of well vetted and stable. But anyway, it's not a big deal. But we've got to have them come do a software update on our NextGen control. And I don't know what it's going to cost, but I would be shocked if it's less than $500 and probably closer to $800 or $900.
00:16:21
Speaker
That's too bad just for software update. The only thing I know about that is I heard of somebody with a speedio that wanted a software update in order to do some sort of
00:16:33
Speaker
just some cut move feature, um, helical interpolation or something like that. Um, that the, their current software version couldn't do. So anyway, he needed a software update and after tons and tons and tons of back and forth with the Amazon, uh, eventually they just mailed him a USB stick and he was able to do it himself. Why couldn't you just email me the files? Like why, why was it so difficult?
00:17:00
Speaker
I do wish for that. And it's something I wanted to bring up when I see them maybe at IMTS. But I think if you look at it from their point of view, I mean, they've got tens of thousands, if not maybe even 100,000 machines. So they don't have any way of really sizing you up. And you could create a lot of problems that escalate to where a machine that was functional but needed upgrade goes to not operational, which changes the response time required and all that. Yeah, turns it into a brick. You don't want that. Right.
00:17:30
Speaker
Um, anyway, I'm not sour. I'm very happy with all the experiences, but it's when people talk about older machines needing maintenance or warranty or work or buying used machines. Like it's one of those first times where you're like, man, everyone told me there'd be some money, but now you're starting to actually, you know,
00:17:47
Speaker
Totally. They weren't, you know, being able to just download PathPilot was nice or just like openly work on it. In Haas is great. I mean, it's actually funny. Haas is almost better on the physical side than the software side because you can go to the Haas website and buy almost any part you want. Anyway. And install those by yourself, most likely.
00:18:06
Speaker
I guess so. Um, I don't know if I would ever, I don't know if they're going to like really help you, you know, replace a ball screw or something, but, um, anyway. Yeah. All good stuff. But yeah, technology changes. Totally. Just the other day I got a, I got a letter from FANUC, FANUC US and I'm like, what is this? So we cut it open and it's, um, for my Nakamura lathe, which is now two years old, um, almost today, uh,
00:18:32
Speaker
The, the warranty, the FANUC warranty for the motors and things like that has just expired. So they're providing me with a warranty contract for like $1,700 a year to continue to warranty the spindles, the servo drivers, the servos, the like all the FANUC products on the machine basically. And I don't know what I'm going to do yet. We got to talk about it some more, but basically it's like no cost replacement if you blow anything.
00:19:00
Speaker
a live tool motor, something like that. And so there's definitely value in that. But $1,700 a year, it's one of those costs. You're like, oh, I didn't really think that through.
00:19:12
Speaker
Well, I would look at, is that a escalating agreement or are you able to lock in? They would be incentivized to want you to lock into longer terms. In other words, is it going to be $1,900 next year, $2,500 the fourth year? In theory, it should go up in price because it's an older machine as time goes on.
00:19:32
Speaker
The other, and I'm a cynic, but the other big thing here is warranties are written with all sorts of caveats. Response times, is it part, is it labor? There's lots of situations where folks like your distributor don't necessarily get too excited about fulfilling a third party's warranty that they're sort of on the hook for. Just get smart on that stuff. Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:59
Speaker
I'm not against them at all, put it that way. If you do it the right way. I also wonder if there's things like if the servo blue because of a crash or something, you might not be covered. Like, I don't know. You got to read all the fine print and understand it. Yeah, we just, we got to think about that.
00:20:18
Speaker
Here's a good one. At that Chicago DMG event, there was a panel on five-axis machining that was really cool, like Alfred. What's the machine concept's name? Albert. Albert was on it, and Devin from 1186 was on it.
00:20:36
Speaker
Cool shoot somebody else a couple other guys. Anyway, the DMG guys were we were talking about crashes and I just said it What's the is there a way you guys handle? Five-axis crashes in a machine shop environment like in terms of the risk of getting into a machine They're like we'll sell you insurance now and don't quote me on this because I'm recollecting here from memory But I believe it was ten or fifteen percent of the machines price up front
00:21:04
Speaker
And then $1,000 deductible, no matter what happens, how it happens. That's kind of cool. Yeah. It's big. I mean, it's going to be 30 or 40 grand, right? I mean, for a DMG five axis, thousand bucks is a no brainer. I wonder if you can even finance that because there's no value in it.
00:21:28
Speaker
I'm 99% sure. The finance people are so freaking hungry right now. They'll do anything. Now the better question is, is that transferable? Does that live with the machine or you? Because if I sell the machine, that's a really good question I did not think of then. Anyway, interesting. I don't know if I would spend 40 grand if it was a $400,000 machine for insurance. I guess it depends on how bad your crash is. Like one crash could be 40 grand.
00:21:58
Speaker
Certainly a spindle could be 15 or 20. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. So much to think about. I know, right? You at least want to know. I like knowing those things now so that if it ever comes up, you had the chance to think about it, talk to other people. I would love to find somebody who
00:22:19
Speaker
decided that was worth it. I would be inclined. I would almost be inclined to self-insure, meaning if you had six machines, you're not going to spend 180 grand between all of them because you're not going to crash all of them. You shouldn't, it means just start saving a piggy bank for inevitable. And I mean, any business should do that regardless.
00:22:45
Speaker
And the cynic in me also thinks that if you're a company, you're like, well, we'll offer this. We're just going to make it a really smart deal for us. Yeah. Cause there are some people that are so scared of risk that they want to pay any amount to get rid of it. Right. Right. And yeah. Hmm.
Shop Management and Employee Initiatives
00:23:04
Speaker
So the shop ran fine without you. Totally fine. I actually came back and it was like way tidier, like, like two big shelves, you know, by the bathroom and on the big yellow shelf are now torn apart, cleaned empty and getting put back together nicely. And I'm like, whoa, guys, hold. I should go away more often. Yeah. What does this say about you, John? Exactly. No, that's awesome. John's not here. We can do whatever we want. Let's clean.
00:23:33
Speaker
But the, uh, bill and lathe ran. Yep. Good. Yep. Angelo set up the lathe for another job and kept the mill going the whole time. Awesome. It's great. Still making, still making Norseman. Are you going to do rasks? We are going to do rasks. I'm just avoiding it. Why? Linda wheel. Serious. It's, it's not doing what I want and I don't want to get back into it right now. Right.
00:23:59
Speaker
Is Linda no longer part of your world? No, she could, but I just...
00:24:04
Speaker
I don't know that there is a wheel solution that does what I want it to do. Right. At least at this point, that's my feeling. You know, I've tried a lot of things. I spent a lot of money and a lot of time and I'm just kind of sick of it at this point. Are you like, we're actually tempted to 3d machine the bevels and just go for a nice tool path. Like we do on the Norseman, um, and go for that. So that's probably the next thing I'll try.
00:24:31
Speaker
You can't 2D contour or swarf it. It's not a flat. You can. But it has to be because it's a wheel. Yeah. But the end mill is worse than the grinding wheel as far as finish. Hmm.
00:24:45
Speaker
And that's fixturing or in the middle, you try, I mean, yeah. Yeah. Hmm. And you, what about, uh, what about just building a jig that holds it at the right angle and putting it in a surface grinder or your lapping machine? It does arc. So it's not flat. It's not a full flat. So it actually gets skinnier.
00:25:06
Speaker
And so the grinding wheel is a form grinding wheel. No, no, the grinding wheel was like a wheel, except it, it moves in X. Sorry, you had a two or three access tool path on the grinding wheel. A two access tool path. Yeah. So you can't put it on the left.
00:25:25
Speaker
Yeah, but I get a three-axis surface grinder. Thought about it. You can usually have a wheel dressed to a custom shape. Not necessary because, well, I think I see what you mean. For a surface grinder? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it'd be tricky. Or even put a belt over a rubber wheel that had, that would be the better way. The rubber wheel was the right shape because then you can swap out belts.
00:25:55
Speaker
No, I don't think it would work for this scenario. I'm all for ideas. Yeah, I'm trying to think out loud. Yeah, I like it. Because maybe there's something I haven't thought of yet, but current best scenario is to nail down a clean 3D machine toolpath.
00:26:12
Speaker
And, you know, obvious solution is like an LX 160 would just do that perfectly. Right. Have you have somebody with an LX runway? I know I should. I really should. Or I should, you know, convince Elliott Metzer and let me come play on one for a day. Sure. I could do that. That's not really an unreasonable thing given that. Yeah. Well, OK, rewind. So the Norseman is 3D machined with texture. So that makes it
00:26:40
Speaker
done there. The rask is more of a traditional smooth knife blade that has a contoured angle or a giant, it was like a 300 inch radius or something across the blade face. No, it's flat. It is flat, but it tips at the bottom. Yeah, near the tip of the knife. Okay. From where the pivot is to where the tip is, it does pinch in and gets closer at the very, very tip.
00:27:08
Speaker
Got it. Oh, I see. Okay. From the handle. Got it. Got it. Got it. You can't handle that and it's not a constant change. It is. It's like flat for a while and then it's a radius end. Oh, I see. And so the issue is when you machine it with the side of an end mill,
00:27:29
Speaker
on both sides or just the second side when it's unsupported? Both sides. And I've got it supported on both sides as well. It, uh, you know, the tiniest little deviation in the end mill grind or a chip in the end mill just makes for a not great finish because it's like a one inch thick, uh, surface. So is it on every, it's cutting 60 Rockwell steel.
00:27:52
Speaker
And it's on every rask or is it get worse as a tool wears or like is it, is it probably gets worse. Okay. I mean, you could go through like one end mill per tool or per knife, but that's expensive. Yeah. Right. Um, but if you go to a 3d machine tool path, then little chips in the end mill don't show. Mm-hmm.
00:28:13
Speaker
You know, you're relying on a radius, not a, uh, not a constant flat of the side. You're going to have to have a full inch of perfect everything. Exactly. Right. Sure. Mm-hmm. Takes a lot longer though. I mean, to me, it does seem like an abrasive process is, is totally the game here. But I, like the grinding wheel we used was a 600 grit or 800 grit. I can't remember.
00:28:43
Speaker
as a grinding wheel and then Eric still had to polish that out for like 15 to 45 minutes. And I'm like, this is not the right process.
00:28:52
Speaker
Thinking out loud, I mean, if it's, if it basically goes, it goes straight, let's say it's a three inch blade, it goes straight for two inches and then it just tips a little at a different angle, right? That's sort of what it is. Not in Z, but in X. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm almost thinking back to like old school cam systems, like old before CNC where they would have the machine moved to a certain point and then a cam would trip a fixture and change the angle a little.
00:29:18
Speaker
Because I'm thinking the quality could be achieved kind of like you used to have on that Tormach surface grinder was which was basically a rigid belt grinder. Okay, I see what you mean. And so if you could have that belt, or maybe you do it in two setups, john, and you can you consider it a semi finishing a process where the belt handles the first area of the knife, then you tip change it in the fixture, the belt handles the second area of the knife,
00:29:42
Speaker
but it's not a, it's not two angles. It's a flat and then a radius and it has to hold that radius the whole way. Okay. Okay. So then that's more complicated except not really, because you could retrofit a CNC machine of some sorts. I'm not, I'm not saying this is the right way, but, um, the actual, the actual motion control of moving that is not difficult.
00:30:06
Speaker
We can program it and you can get steppers or servos to do it. Belt grinder would work. The sum of all these parts is like a few thousand bucks. True. Um, could you do it? Or elaborate how, how's pronounces that if I had a rask, I would know this. Yeah. I don't know what the angle is. It's big, like 12 inches or something.
00:30:33
Speaker
The rate you have to keep it as a race. Yeah. Yeah. I would think about that. Hmm. Hmm. Cause we do want to get back into them. I mean, we're getting Norsemen dialed right now, which is awesome, but you know, everybody's hungry for rasks and I miss them. I want to make them too. It's like they're easier in some ways and they're harder in other ways to manufacture. So yes, that's what it's all about though.
Knife Maintenance and Machining Challenges
00:31:01
Speaker
I love it.
00:31:10
Speaker
And I was on in the basement cleaning and dropped on some tile floor and just the tip is just all buggered up. And so I've got a I've got a India. What do you call those like knife stones that you buy one thousand six thousand grit things? Yeah. And so I mean, Eric would have shot me, but I'm sitting there trying to like just get the giant burr off of it so that it's some semblance of a sharp edge. Yeah. Oh, man. It happens. Exactly.
00:31:28
Speaker
I dropped my Norseman by far the worst Norseman crash I've ever had.
00:31:35
Speaker
Yep. Maybe appreciate though, maybe appreciate the consistency of the thickness, I don't know, knife terms of that, um, of that tip, like how it's where the grind is. Cause that was, I was already starting to muck that up when I was just pushing it on the stone. Nice. Yeah. Oh, well. Awesome. So what else are you up to?
00:31:57
Speaker
It's sort of business as usual. We just opened up our training classes to our Haas machines. This week is the first class where we've got a guy on the Haas. I was nervous for obvious reasons. I'm so glad that we did it. It's absolutely the right thing to do. Who is meeting with the classes?
00:32:15
Speaker
Kevin and Jared. Yeah, and I'll hop in if needed on stuff. But it makes me happy because it's what I would want as an entrepreneur who's trying to learn something. Like you can come to this class, you can use a Tormach, you can use a Haas, you can kind of see both being run.
00:32:35
Speaker
And it's kind of weird, but it's also like, wait a minute here. We didn't own a host two years ago and you know, we're not God's gift to machining, but darn it. We know enough about how to teach practical use of these machines. What, what do you want to buy? How do you tool them up? How do you program them? How do you do basic program? Like it's, it's fun. I like being a, uh, I like being a person that's viewed as someone who's helping people learn, enable their ideas, like get stuff done. Um, and that's, it's exciting to me. It's kind of all coming together. That's awesome.
00:33:05
Speaker
I've got good. It is like the dream of before you buy a machine being able to go to your shop and see lots of tormax and two horses and being able to touch and play and feel and ask. That is the dream.
00:33:20
Speaker
I mean, think about it. Would you spend the money to go do a three-day class on the LX 160 where you actually made parts on it? Yeah. Right? Like, absolutely. Then it'd be done. Right. Like,
Enhancing Production Efficiency
00:33:30
Speaker
yeah. It's such a, it's like we actually, we just sold the five axis. It's gone, which is great. But I'm so glad that I owned that because I'm so much more competent and capable in what I now I'm going to do. Not just owned it, but you actually stepped out of yourself and used it properly. Not just gave up the first try.
00:33:49
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Well, actually I almost did give up that first try. Yeah. It's like you fell off your bike and then you didn't want to ride bikes anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So that's actually interesting. We got to talk about IMTS. My current thought is
00:34:06
Speaker
And it's a little bit disappointing because it feels like I'm staying too inside of my comfort zone here. But, um, if we want to do smarter production, set ourselves up for some higher volumes, improve our workflows, improve our quality process by building your qualities, not just something you do after the parts are machined. It's part of the input to how their machine.
00:34:29
Speaker
No question at this point that a fourth axis is the way to go, which is a little anticlimactic because I'm like, Oh, horizontal or, you know, five axis with automation, but we're not there yet. And that's okay. So getting a fourth axis for your existing machines.
00:34:46
Speaker
Well, so that's the question is, our VM3 is already wired for a fourth and fifth. So I could just buy an HRC210 on the Haas, plop it on there, and we're done. Right. I kind of like leaving the VM3 set up for fixture plates because we're starting to make those for vertical machine centers now for any machines basically. Excuse me, basically.
00:35:08
Speaker
So I like the idea of not having to change setups on that, especially adding and removing a 200 or 300 pound box. So I could make an argument that we should buy something like a VF4SS, very common machine, could help with the training program, could run all our other parts. It's another spindle for us to use. It would tie in with the secret project that I hopefully will be announcing here in the next month or two.
00:35:37
Speaker
But the reality is that's close to being a yes, which means it's not a yes yet. So just buy the fourth, put it on the VM3, and if you want to buy a VF4 later, you can still move it over to that. But don't buy the machine until you can sell yourself on it all day long, is kind of what I'm saying.
00:36:01
Speaker
If, yeah, if you're still thinking about it and you are going to get a fourth anyway, the cost of getting a fourth is not a lot of money. It's like 12 grand. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, it's like me buying a bar feeder. Why am I waiting so long? Yes. Yes, exactly. Um, yeah, I think, uh, I mean, you just sold your, your five axis thing for probably more
Entrepreneurial Financial Security
00:36:25
Speaker
than that. Right. But I think if you got it, you'd use it and you'd profit from it like right away.
00:36:32
Speaker
Because somebody was asking on the NYC CNC forums about entrepreneurship and quitting their job. And I'm like, you don't quit your job until it's absolutely you must. And you don't quit your job because you hate your job. You quit your job because your business has so much demand and opportunity. And that's me. Everyone has their own opinions. But my opinion was running my machining business was a lot more fun when I
00:36:59
Speaker
didn't have the pressure of paying bills with it, or I could even take some of my paycheck and maybe buy a tool and not have to kind of justify it so much. Cause you know, a good grief, John, remember when like a 30 or $50 tool was something where you really, I mean, you really thought about it. Like, you know, I really love to have another TTS holder or some more college and like, these were big decisions. Yep. Um, so that's the same thought with the machine is wait, make sure it's.
00:37:29
Speaker
such an easy decision that you don't have to second guess it. So I'm not sure how that ties in with IMTS because I still want to look more at lathes. I still want to look more at five axis. I still want to look more at three axis. We will eventually own a machine that's not a Haas. I'm not interested in being a fan boy, but we've been so darn happy with them for now that it makes it an easy choice at the moment.
00:37:53
Speaker
I've owned eight cars, all Volvos. I haven't paid, I haven't paid more than $500 for any of them. Are you serious? Yeah. You bought that you're, what do you have an eight 50? Yep. You bought it. That's the 500 bucks with a blown motor and I put in a new motor. Okay. Well that's insane. Yeah. Oh my God. So a big part of me is like,
00:38:22
Speaker
Damn it. I deserve a new car. Yeah. We'll get there. But anyway, yeah. You should, you should buy a Swiss. What did we talk about this? Are you, you're going to buy a Swiss before you buy a five axis? As excited as I am about a five axis. And as much as I'm like, actually, yeah, we can talk about this. Uh, Meg had a pretty mind blowing revelation for me.
00:38:43
Speaker
Yeah. As excited as I'm with five axis and I'm like, yeah, we'd make more parts, we'd make more stuff, blah, blah, blah. It'd be awesome. Workflow, palettes, tools, you know, lots of tools. That's what we need. A Swiss is more likely in our immediate future.
00:39:00
Speaker
I think I'm over the excitement of a Swiss cause I've wanted one for so long and I know exactly like almost exactly what I'd get. Um, but that makes sense because we'd use it. We'd use it like crazy. And then five axis would be next later. Um,
00:39:16
Speaker
after that. And I mean, I don't think we'd fit a five axis in this building anyway. So that has to tie into it too. And then you get a bigger building. So you're planning not only the extra many thousands of dollars for rent, you're planning the machine purchase, you're probably planning another hire or two. So it's a big step. I don't know, John. I mean, I think you and Angelo maybe, I mean, you guys have, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I don't know why you said you would need another hire, but I would think
00:39:46
Speaker
about more people. Why? Because we are slammed as it is. Like, how do you and it's good and I want to grow. I know we can and I know I want to. Okay. Yeah. I'm not saying we need to. But we could. Okay. Yeah. Is it's what kind of roles? Well, I do like various Yeah, I've thought about this. Um,
00:40:16
Speaker
definitely more Eric type role. Okay. Uh, helping Eric on the finishing side, somebody with really good dexterity and really good eye for detail and scratches and things like that. And then another person on the machining side that like part of me wants somebody to stand in front of the lay and then keep it busy all the time. Cause even Angelo and I don't have time to do that right now, but that shouldn't be a job. I know it shouldn't be a job, but it is.
00:40:42
Speaker
But like, look at, again, look at tactile turn. It's not a full time job. He's like, yeah, I came back and I had 4,000 parts done. I mean, if you have a knocker with a bar feeder and a Swiss, I don't, there shouldn't be a job for that. Obviously you don't have to stand in front of it 24 seven, but, um, it doesn't run nearly as much as it should or could because of our attention to set up and like dial in and keep parts dialed. And.
00:41:09
Speaker
You know, measure tolerances and pull out parts and measure them and things like that. We had, uh, by, this is relevant to that. Uh, we had our by far best ever Paul Eaker's moment at the shop this week. Tying in with something we're working on. Um, I, I wanted to ability to take some pictures on a consistent basis, but not.
00:41:32
Speaker
a bad workflow, which would have been like grab a camera from somebody else, set up the lights, set up the photo thing, SD cards, blah, blah, blah. So we have, and it was cheap.
Photography and Machine Optimization
00:41:41
Speaker
We bought a brand new Canon DSLR for like $390, like the T6 entry level, which is plenty good. We bought a light kit on Amazon for 40 bucks. We already had a tripod, I think.
00:41:55
Speaker
I had an old Mac mini laying around. So the Mac mini hooks up to the DSLR via the EOS utility. We bought the $13 AC power adapter for the camera, so there's no battery. So the whole thing stays turned on, powered on. There's no SD card involved. The camera's set up in a permanent mount aimed at the box. Anybody can walk up to it.
00:42:18
Speaker
hit, you don't even use the camera. You use the software and the computer. You take the pictures, the pictures go into a shared network drive and Julia or I can get to them. And there is, you have to put them in a specific folder that identifies what you're doing. So there is that sort of process and step, but it is an amazing workflow.
00:42:36
Speaker
Nice. So like kind of a light box product photography kind of exact setup. Right. Yeah, I was just asking Erin about that because we have the one nice camera and one light box and you got to kind of set it up every time. And I'm like, would it be beneficial to have a tripod and a dedicated camera? And, and she's like, Well, I'd like to take pictures from all different angles of the parts. And I'm like, Okay, fair enough. But is there still an easier, faster way to do this? So
00:43:01
Speaker
I'll send you a picture of ours after the... I mean, it's not complicated or hard. Yeah, totally. That's awesome. We live in a great world when you can buy a DSLR Canon for $400. Oh my gosh. It's amazing. With a kit lens, not the best lens, but it's fine for what we're doing.
00:43:21
Speaker
Because my thought is going back to those videos where you want to punch Paul Acres, because he's like, well, we set up our multi-axis mill turn, five-axis machining center in our factory here in 13 minutes. It used to take us six hours. And you're like, how did you do that, Paul? But you've got to figure out ways to reduce your setup times. I know. Yeah, we do. And we're working on it constantly. Yep. Cool. So Meg was pushing me. I was trying to explain to her
00:43:50
Speaker
You know, big ideas, future plans, five axis, things like that. And when you tell your wife that you want to buy a five axis machine, not immediately, but you know, it's good. She, she pressures me to be like, well, I thought you got the Maury to run 24 seven. How come it's not running 24 seven? Like, okay, fair enough. Like.
00:44:06
Speaker
We use it at night, but only to run one pallet, which is three and a half hours. So it's, it's done by nine 30. Um, so it's, it's sitting idle for like nine, 10 hours, 12 hours at night. Um, so I'm like, okay, how do we maximize that? More pallets on the table would be good, but we don't have enough redundant tools to, you know, to last that long.
00:44:29
Speaker
And she's like, well, why, you know, like Eric always says, why don't you just replace every single tool for the night run and then run four pallets and call it good. And I'm like, that's not cost effective. Yeah. 30 tools to be replaced. You can't just replace them willy nilly. So Meg pushed me to pursue something that I've wanted to do. Like I've been doing the tool macro tracking.
00:44:51
Speaker
meaning after every palette, this tool macro goes up one, and there's a limit. So it knows when that tool is expired. Basically, if I can pull that data out of the machine and into a spreadsheet, I can forecast. So I can forecast for pallets ahead. And then
00:45:09
Speaker
offline while the machine's running during the day, I can forecast, okay, if we're going to run four pallets tonight, what tools do we need to replace in order to last for that four pallets? Let's pre-stage them all using spare holders during the day. So it's like you're prepping the night run to be a failure proof for pallets. I love this. Thank you. And, um, you're using data to make intelligent decisions. Yes. Because you're not that way. Yeah.
00:45:39
Speaker
phenomenal. That's not easy to do though. I'd suspect. Yeah. Well, yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to get the macros off of the machine. And there are software out there that do it rolled in with their whole fancy, like lots of other features. And I'm like, that sounds expensive. Is this that like machine connect or what was that? What are some of those? Empty connect. So I know there's options out there. I just haven't found the cleanest way.
00:46:08
Speaker
The simplest way is a simple dprint command, which will send a text file to your USB stick. And I'm like, okay, how do I get it off the USB stick onto a Google Drive? And then how do I parse that simple text file and dump it into a spreadsheet? And I'm like, I can hire a programmer in Upwork to do that.
00:46:27
Speaker
That's true. I'm not worried about that side, you know? Excel will do text to columns from a CSV file pretty consistently. Automatically? Yeah. Okay. You can set up the parameters of how you want it split. You can split it based on spacing, on tabs, on line spacing. That will work consistently.
00:46:47
Speaker
Right. So I'm, I'm not afraid to spend $35 to hire an Upwork guy to like answer that for me. Um, but yeah, so I'm close. I'm getting there. 30 tools, but I would suspect five or 10, maybe the smaller tools are the ones that are more of an issue. Yes. Yeah. So focus. But, but they all have a life, you know, some last for 30 pallets. And if you're at 28 and you want to run four pallets, then it's not going to last. Right. So you got to know everything pretty much. They all get replaced eventually. Right.
00:47:15
Speaker
Dumb question, there's no way to change the tool change your size on your machine, right? There's no way to... No, there isn't. Yeah, Barry was asking me about that too. Right. It's too good of a machine to even think about selling it to get a different one. Like it's a good... I kind of agree. It's just such a good machine.
00:47:31
Speaker
Well, and then the long-term plan is do we get a smaller machine, like a speedio, cheaper machine to supplement, or do we just buck up and get the five axis and use this as our supplementary? Exactly. I think that makes more sense. It's a lot more expensive, but if we can totally maximize night run and reduce every headache by foreseeing, like I've spent a year and a half tracking tool life. I know it very well. We very rarely break a tool now.
00:47:59
Speaker
And look, to Eric's point, you have a problem, which is you have finite resources. Real estate. Of tool life. Everything. Capital real estate. And you have demand to increase output. So the marginal cost, even if it costs more to make a night run of knives in the form of extra tooling. You make more knives.
00:48:20
Speaker
You still do it. Your profit is a little bit less, but- But your output is higher, like significantly. Yeah. So like those tools that last 30, don't even worry about them. Odds are they'll be okay or something. I'm making this up. Or just check some of those manually maybe. But the little ones, just replace them. So it costs you an extra $72 per knife. That sounds horrible, but the reality is you're still learning, you're proving it out, you're getting it going. And you can always streamline it later. You're not locking yourselves perpetually into worse margins.
00:48:50
Speaker
Right. Yeah, so it was really eye opening to kind of realize, okay, yeah, by being smarter, we can maximize our current resources better. Yep. Without needing to, you know, change everything, right? So it's good. I'm actually very excited about this.
00:49:11
Speaker
Yeah. The only other thing I could think of, which is bananas is, uh, is, it's probably a terrible idea, but is a robot to change tools. Like an actual, I've heard about it, a UA arm or something that could actually have a cool tool hive. You don't have a lot of real, it would cost six. It's a dumb decision because of, but you could, I guess, the theory do it. Um, or even a wine. I mean, I've hustled even do this. Like you can have wine rack changers on your table.
00:49:41
Speaker
I've heard about that too, but yeah, that's crazy.
Looking Forward to IMTS
00:49:45
Speaker
Um, but yeah, anyway, IMTS is going to be mind blowing, right? And I can't wait to just, I just want to learn everything, whether I make any decisions from it or not. I just want to know. Yep. I'm excited. I'm actually, yeah, I'm really excited. It's coming up soon. Good. Yeah. A couple of weeks. What are you up to today? Today.
00:50:06
Speaker
I don't know. I'm still like getting back into the groove of it for my trip, but dig into that macro thing some more business as usual, like you said. Make some G10 carrier rings for the lapping machine. Cool. Just like a shadow nested blade profile that holds the blades from sliding together. We made a couple before and they work awesome. You can't print those.
00:50:33
Speaker
You could, but our printer's not big enough. And I don't know if the plastic would be strong enough, like compared to G10. Right. So things like that. Cool. Can you tap G10? Yes. Really? Even though it's a laminate? Yeah, I think so. Tap it or thread meld it?
00:50:52
Speaker
It's not a great thread, I'm sure. I think you could. Maybe what I'm trying to say is maybe you can't form tap it because it doesn't flow like a plasticity. It just seems like such a strange material to tap like that. Cool. Well, that went by quick. Yeah, geez. That's good. I feel like it's been a long time. I guess I've done a lot. It's good. In the past week, it's been awesome.
00:51:21
Speaker
Yeah. Awesome. Cool. I'll catch you next Wednesday. Sounds great. Have an awesome day. Take care. Bye.