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S4 E24: Freedom of Speech
36 Plays1 month ago
Should we have full freedom of speech. Join Dejan and John as they discuss this controversial question. Please like, subscribe, and give us a 5* review wherever you listen.
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Transcript
Introduction to Freedom of Speech
00:00:00
John Gartside
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Debatable Discussions podcast. Today you join us for another very exciting episode as we're going to delve into this idea of freedom of speech, a topic which seems to dominate the headlines.
00:00:16
John Gartside
It's constantly occurring in the Western world.
00:00:20
Dejan
Definitely, John. And is dominating the headlines in quite an unproductive way, I think. And what I mean by that is that it not dominating the headlines in the way that, I think, we all agree freedom speech should be encouraged.
00:00:35
Dejan
But it dominates the headlines with sort some people abusing their freedom of
Freedom Through Constraints
00:00:40
Dejan
speech. And I want to start this off by thought and an idea from German philosopher Ludwig Wittgenstein.
00:00:49
Dejan
And he famously sort of claims and argues that freedom isn't possible without rules and constraints. He argues that those rules and constraints themselves give rise to freedom.
00:01:04
Dejan
And he gives example of chess. So he says that the reason you've got freedom in chess and got the reason to make your moves is because of the rules of chess themselves, such as the fact that you're only allowed to do this with a pawn, this with a bishop, this with queen.
00:01:17
Dejan
And I think that's applicable to freedom of speech as well. I think the reason we have freedom of speech is because there are some barriers you cannot cross. You cannot incite for violence and you cannot, you know, actively perform a hate crime, basically.
00:01:34
Dejan
But those two examples, I think, are so far removed from what any normal and average person would ever deal with in a lifetime. that they provide the right parameters for people to be able to express
Limits to Prevent Harm
00:01:47
Dejan
themselves. What do you think?
00:01:48
John Gartside
Yeah, I think I am a free speech absolutist. I believe that the vast majority of things people should have the right to say without any consequences. I believe speech facilitates democracy, facilitates discussion and innovation.
00:02:03
John Gartside
However, to go back to Ludwig Wittgenstein's idea you said there, on there being almost constraints to how we view freedom of speech, there should be.
00:02:13
John Gartside
Douglas Carswell said it episode 233, four episodes ago, know, inciting violence, that should not be justified.
00:02:23
John Gartside
You should not, it's not part of freedom of speech to justify violence, to incite violence. So for example, so you've got to have these parameters which you set freedom of speech around. Similarly, you mentioned there, Diane, hate crimes,
00:02:35
John Gartside
perhaps even sort of, I guess, some sort of strains of defamation that inciting violence and hate crimes. These aren't things which are included in freedom of speech. Freedom of speech purely to invoke or to say and express an opinion, something which shouldn't be censored.
00:02:52
Dejan
I do want to sort of build on that as well. And you have mentioned this idea of the problems that come with inciting violence and hate crimes and defamation.
00:03:04
Dejan
And the main problem to me, apart from sort of obvious emotional impact on that personal, physical impact, even in some cases, but it is the fact that they actually actively censor freedom speech.
00:03:17
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:03:18
Dejan
inciting violence censors freedom of speech. Even if your sort of incite violence against a particular group of people limits their freedom of speech.
00:03:31
Dejan
Same thing with defamation, same thing with hate crimes. So I do think Wittgenstein's got a great point there, which is that the rules themselves give rise to freedom of speech.
00:03:43
Dejan
The rules that are in place now, and I think they're the right rules of not being able to do things such as incite violence or hate crimes or defame people, do give everyone a voice because it means that no one can be actively silenced for justified beliefs.
00:04:02
John Gartside
Yeah, and I agree you there. Inciting violence against a group almost suppresses their opinions in the sense narrative can form.
00:04:09
Dejan
Definitely.
00:04:11
John Gartside
And this is something we've seen on Twitter recently. And almost freedom of speech nowadays in the UK is an idea which is synonymous with freedom of expression across social media, and in particular Twitter, the marketplace where political views are expressed.
00:04:28
John Gartside
And many people, and it's a thin line. There was a very famous case in the UK of Sun called Lucy Connolly, who, in my opinion, incited violence.
00:04:39
John Gartside
It's very sad. think there have been criminal proceedings to follow her, but she incited violence against a certain group, sort of constructed this narrative around it, which was extremely unfortunate.
00:04:54
John Gartside
And sort of going on from your idea there, people and a common criticism of freedom of speech is what if the opinions are false? Should we allow these opinions which are obviously not true?
00:05:05
Dejan
Thank you.
00:05:07
John Gartside
And we should. And to resort back to another philosopher, you mentioned Wittgenstein, but one who's not too far from him in a way concerning freedom of speech is J.S.
00:05:17
John Gartside
Mill, notably known for formulating utilitarianism. And Mill argues in his book on liberty that all opinions, whether they're false, and even the silent ones are valuable.
Real-World Legal Examples
00:05:31
John Gartside
you can gain something from them, whether that's debating them and proving them wrong, for example, or it's just having that diversity in opinion. All opinions are valuable, thus we shouldn't censor them.
00:05:43
John Gartside
However, Mill does recognise... there's a line with this. So Mill formulates the harm principle, which says that you can express something even if it's false, but when it's harming people actively, that's where you've got to draw the line.
00:05:59
John Gartside
And that's where the line should be drawn in the UK. I think there has been many examples of clear incitement of violence. there's And the police has been right in those instances to stop that.
00:06:12
John Gartside
However, then I think perhaps the police in the UK have been overly active in trying to suppress freedom of speech, which actually isn't dangerous. Yeah.
00:06:21
Dejan
Yeah, so just to remind our listeners and viewers the Lucy Connelly case, she's a 42-year-old wife of a Tory councillor and she called for people to, and I quote, set fire, end quote, to hotels housing asylum seekers.
00:06:21
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:06:40
Dejan
I mean, don't see how anyone can make a case that that is not direct incitement to violence.
00:06:42
John Gartside
It's clear.
00:06:49
Dejan
It is literally calling on people to burn others alive, just like in medieval times. And she was given a 31 month prison sentence. Fully justified, I think. I mean, you cannot actually do that and expect to get away with it because number one is the sort of political climate in the UK.
00:07:09
Dejan
maybe this is a view that some of our listeners won't agree with, but I do think there is an active element of anti-immigration to the point where it's not just about economics or it's about sort of whatever integration, whatever people want claim. I think now is to the point where it's an anti-immigration movement for the sake of being an anti-immigration movement.
00:07:32
Dejan
It doesn't have any basic sort of logic behind the amount of hate and the amount of negative comments immigrants are receiving, both legal and illegal.
00:07:46
Dejan
And, you know, they are in a very bad position themselves because they don't have the right to work as a result Tony Blair government and their provisions because, you know, which again, justified, you can't really work if you don't, if people don't know who you are.
00:08:00
Dejan
But You cannot actively demonize people by saying they should be burnt alive and then expect to get away with it and say that you're a prisoner for free speech. That isn't free speech.
00:08:12
Dejan
That is incitement to violence. And it's an incitement to violence that actively suppresses and silences the right of those immigrants to free speech. Because if you're burning alive, you cannot talk, one.
00:08:27
Dejan
If you're under threat of being burnt alive, again, you can't really talk as well. So, you know, all this rhetoric from people saying, oh, it's my free speech. Well, yes, it is. But your free speech shouldn't actively censor someone else's.
00:08:43
Dejan
I think that's where I draw the line, is you can say whatever you want as long as you're not actively censoring someone else.
00:08:51
John Gartside
Yeah, and I think you make a point in that. Yeah, as in inciting violence can limit one's freedom of speech. But then many, I think, would argue that it can be the other way.
Social Media's Role
00:09:04
John Gartside
There has been a recent case of, and it works both ways, in the sense that inciting violence does limit freedom of speech.
00:09:04
Dejan
Thank you.
00:09:10
John Gartside
But in this age of social media, voices even from these communities who are unfortunately trying to be suppressed, like illegal immigrants, they have also gained prominence. The recent example, which was just really sad, what this bloke and just, he should be sent to prison, was this man who's been jailed for five years for making these very threatening videos towards Nigel Farage, basically saying to Farage that he wants to kill him.
00:09:38
John Gartside
And that's just totally unacceptable. And that is, this guy is an immigrant who's come to the UK and he's using social media to spread this. And that's incitement of violence as well, similarly.
00:09:50
John Gartside
So he has been, and he received a particularly stringent prison sentence also because of past sort of criminal crimes. associations. But it's that point of free speech absolutists. In my opinion, like I am, you're an absolutist within certain rules and certain parameters.
00:10:09
John Gartside
And that's what needs to be recognized, as many do. But, Diane, a key part of this debate, and I alluded to it earlier, is social media. social media has meant that voices are amplified.
00:10:23
John Gartside
So do you think there should be restrictions on social media in any way to prevent, let's say more disinformation?
00:10:30
Dejan
Yeah, I think just going back to your earlier point before I start on this one.
00:10:35
Dejan
Yeah, again, fairly justified. Hate and summon the violence, summon the violence, you do deserve prison sentence. But, and here comes the but for me, it's not the prison sentence itself, but it's the reaction from a section of the population.
00:10:50
Dejan
Being incredibly happy that this man got sentenced to prison. And these are the very same people that are sort of lamenting all day long about Keir Starmer being, you know, the new Kim Jong-un and there being no freedom of speech.
00:11:06
Dejan
And, oh, how dare they put this person in jail for saying this?
00:11:06
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:11:11
Dejan
Well, I mean, look, if you want to have one standard, it should be the same one.
00:11:15
John Gartside
But it's not true.
00:11:15
Dejan
If you're against Lucy Connolly being put in prison for saying burn the immigrants alive,
00:11:20
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:11:21
Dejan
You should be against this person being put in prison for saying kill Nigel Farage.
00:11:25
Dejan
If you say, you know, fair enough, it's ensignment violence like I am, then again, even when it's maybe against your views and maybe against your interests, you should be able to come and say, you know, fair enough.
00:11:25
John Gartside
Yes.
00:11:37
John Gartside
But I think some are more nuanced than that. And I think there are examples, actually, of... I think the examples of... And it isn't Sakia Starmis, rather the UK police service force.
00:11:48
John Gartside
They have come down particularly harsh on figures for expressing views that are not actually linked in any way to inciting violence. And they've suppressed that. And, mean...
00:11:59
John Gartside
You know, many of those people, I think, that were quite happy when the bloke who threatened to kill Nigel Farge was sent to prison. I imagine some were quite nuanced surrounding Lucy Connolly.
00:12:06
Dejan
Thank you.
00:12:09
John Gartside
And their major frustration at Zakir Starmer was around cases like that of Graham Lynham, someone who just dominated the UK news for several weeks. And, you know,
00:12:20
John Gartside
His was an actual case of free speech absolutism because Lynham's views, whilst they were controversial and whilst you can disagree with them, I didn't really understand them in a manner of how they were sort of inciting violence.
00:12:34
John Gartside
He was expressing an opinion. Fair enough, a controversial opinion. But there's a line between that, in my opinion, and... There's a major difference between that and what Lucy Connolly did.
00:12:46
John Gartside
And Lucy Connolly's, in my opinion, was significantly worse.
00:12:50
Dejan
Yeah, I do think, again, there definitely are some nuanced examples, but the point I'm trying to make is even Nigel Farage himself sort of made tweet about this individual getting imprisoned and seemed quite jolly about it, whilst a couple days earlier he was lamenting about Lucy Connelly.
00:12:54
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:15
Dejan
Yeah, there are more nuanced cases, but I do think the big thing that we are missing right now in politics, but also in just our societies, not just in the UK, but all around the globe, is this sort of fairness issue.
00:13:29
John Gartside
Thank you.
00:13:30
Dejan
I don't think people are... quite ready or quite sort of willing to put their hands up and say mea culpa I've made a mistake this person does deserve this to happen to them I think people are sort of at the moment and this I think is a result the politics we are having they're sort of pumped up against a certain issue to the point that they are blind in making a decision.
00:13:54
Dejan
And this personal agenda comes between them and a decision.
00:14:01
Dejan
But again, there are obviously overzealous police officers who are, you know, who deeply trespass their sort of mandate.
00:14:03
John Gartside
Yeah. Yeah.
00:14:12
Dejan
And those should be also disciplined.
00:14:14
John Gartside
And you do make a point there as well, Diane, in that a major, in my opinion, one of the biggest obstacles to freedom of speech is Donald Trump.
00:14:20
Dejan
Thank you.
00:14:22
John Gartside
Donald Trump and the right wing are actually trying to limit freedom of speech, as you said there. I think Farage to a lesser extent, but the notable one, and this is mainly because Trump is a leader of the USA, but the notable one with Trump is Trump was trying to remove the TV licenses of left-wing media channels in the States.
00:14:40
John Gartside
That's limiting their freedom of speech, their right to broadcast. Therefore, I don't think, you know, especially someone like Trump, Trump is quite authoritarian in his stance to freedom of speech.
00:14:53
John Gartside
He wants his narrative to be propelled. But yes, back to social media,
Anonymity vs. Accountability
00:14:57
John Gartside
though. Sorry, sort of detoured around it.
00:15:00
Dejan
Yeah, think it's very difficult. I'll say why. on to the surface level. I do think you should be sort of registered on social media with your real name and sort of who you are.
00:15:17
Dejan
I'm not a big fan of these people with being user 509, writing whatever they think about.
00:15:23
Dejan
And there's no way of getting back to who these people are because they've used this bogus fake email address. and etc, etc. I think if you are going to say an opinion just like you would in real life, just like how you would say it on a podcast, on TV,
00:15:40
Dejan
you should have your face on social media. I don't think there's a difference between sort of you being on Twitter and I really like Cheetos versus you saying that in person.
00:15:51
Dejan
And if that's not a difference for sort of your food preferences, shouldn't be about your political stance as well. Now, the nuance and the issue does come in some places because In certain countries, you're not allowed speak up.
00:16:05
Dejan
You're not allowed physically. mean, you are, but with great consequences. If you do speak up against the North Korean dictatorship, you're probably going to be in a car accident or something like that.
00:16:16
John Gartside
with.
00:16:18
Dejan
So in those cases, yes, I do think there is a need for confidentiality and there is a need for these bogus accounts that can just broadcast information without them...
00:16:29
Dejan
the broadcaster themselves putting themselves at risk. But I do think those cases are so far between that generally... On the large majority, I'm willing to sort of say that us getting less information about these awful dictatorships from unofficial sources or, you know, a couple more whistleblowers, I'm willing to sacrifice that information for the information of the vast majority of society being able to have an identity and for us to know who is saying these ideas.
00:17:04
John Gartside
I suppose it doesn't even need to be that general. It could just almost be country by country in the sense that we live in a democracy.
00:17:10
Dejan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:12
John Gartside
think part of democratic values is to be held accountable for your beliefs.
00:17:16
Dejan
Yeah.
00:17:17
John Gartside
Within our system, if you are going to tweet about particularly controversial, divisive issues, a big one sort of like vaccine myths, like people under sort of fake accounts on social media have tried to spread quite harmful sort of
00:17:26
Dejan
I mean,
00:17:33
John Gartside
myths around vaccines, you know, they should be held accountable for those beliefs. There shouldn't be this sort of trying to hide, especially in the democratic system in the UK, where you are able to openly criticise without consequence.
00:17:47
Dejan
Yeah, and I do just want to link back to a previous episode we did. We did an episode with the former Minister of Energy from Romania, Sebastián Bordogia.
00:17:53
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:17:54
Dejan
And we did discuss this issue of sort of fake news, misinformation, disinformation. And something that came up then with him is that... unfortunately, people on social media aren't held to the same stance as journalists are.
00:18:10
Dejan
And that led to sort of mad conspiracy theories such as, you know, French people stealing gold and water from Romania's lakes. And, you know, there being 50 million water trucks traveling to Romania, which would surround the whole globe about 18 times. And Yeah, I do agree
Standards and Conclusion
00:18:31
Dejan
with him. I do think he should be held under the same scrutiny because Unless you're sort of, if you're spreading misinformation, you genuinely believe that's true. You know, obviously there's nothing can about that.
00:18:43
Dejan
But if you're an actor, a political actor, covert or not, who is posting out material meant to inflame the public and meant to sort of spread a message and send a signal, then I think people should know who you are.
00:18:58
Dejan
And if you're curious about that and about that discussion, do head back that previous episode.
00:19:02
John Gartside
Yeah, and it's, as Diane said there, Sebastian Berdugia, someone we interviewed, we've interviewed Douglas Carswell, we've, in the past, we've received support from the Free Speech Union. And in all these sort of instances, this issue has been raised because it's important.
00:19:17
John Gartside
And it's, you know, both of us have expressed how we're big fans of freedom of speech. We believe it facilitates discussion, but that there needs to be limits. And just like a politician's held accountable, or Diane, you said they're a journalist,
00:19:30
John Gartside
We should be held accountable for our views.
00:19:32
Dejan
Yeah.
00:19:33
John Gartside
There are views. We shouldn't have these sort of pseudonyms online. And...
00:19:37
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:38
Dejan
I do think, you know, if you do have a controversial opinion, we've all got a few, you know, whether that's conspiracy theories about the pyramids or stuff about immigration, stuff about politics today.
00:19:47
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:19:51
Dejan
We've all got one, at least, that is bit out there. And, you know, I'm happy to be challenged on mine. And I think we all should be, because otherwise, then we're just going to be in this echo chamber and you're just going to hear...
00:20:05
John Gartside
Yeah.
00:20:05
Dejan
stuff that's going to ratify your belief that may be fake.
00:20:07
John Gartside
Yeah, and the easiest thing with social media, think, is that people say things for the sake of it to sort of cause some anger, but there's no need. You don't need sort of spend your life provoking, which I think many like to do.
00:20:20
John Gartside
And with that, we'll finish this episode. It's been a nice short, but I think, you know, quite insightful discussion we have had on freedom of speech.
00:20:30
John Gartside
One of the issues that crops up, so...
00:20:33
Dejan
again again.
00:20:34
John Gartside
Again and then, so hopefully if anyone is listening and interested, they can use this as a bit of substance behind it. Yeah.
00:20:40
Dejan
Thank you. See you next week.
00:20:42
John Gartside
See you then.