Transcript
Speaker: Hi it's Stan here for Dusty Giscs Radio and this is the podcast Liner Notes revealing chats with Canada's retro music makers.
Speaker: Today, I'm honored to have as my guest, Mitchell Field, drummer, multi -instrumentalist, vocalist, songwriter, primary member of the late 70s band Hellfield. And I'm looking forward to hearing his perspective on the Canadian music scene as Mitchell's been part of that for many decades and has much experience touring, recording, producing, and much more that we'll get into as we begin our discussion. So thanks for joining me today, Mitchell. How are you? I'm great, Dan. Thanks very much for having me.
Speaker: Good, no worries. We're trying to make a sort of a historical record of some of the things that have gone on in the Canadian music scene and the more that I've dug into it, it's pretty interesting and there seems to be a fair bit of interest out there on the retro music makers and the things that you guys were involved in so many years ago now. Yes, that's true.
Speaker: So I was curious about your story. I was reading through your story and, you know, obviously you get into music early in life and you became a multi -instrumentalist. I guess you were a drummer first and then you just decided you were going to do everything else as well? Well, yeah, I was a drummer primarily. I was always singing from behind the drums. But when I got to the point where I wanted to write songs, I had to teach myself an instrument, either guitar or piano.
Speaker: so I could have chords and notes, which we don't have on the drums. And so I just basically got a 12 -string guitar, mid -70s, I would think, and I just, you know, sat in my room for a couple of years and figured out some chords. And then I got a little piano, and I did the same thing. I just figured out some chords by myself. And if you have a trained ear, it's really not that difficult if you have the patience and the discipline
Speaker: kind of like with any instrument really or any athlete maybe. It's just a matter of how much time you're willing to put into it. And I don't mean sitting at the piano playing scales and reading sheet music. I don't do that. I can't read sheet music. I can't read or write music. But for some reason, I have a very, very highly developed sense of music, musicality, rhythm, harmony, structure, arrangement,
Speaker: Being able to play the instruments also gives you a little more control in the sense that if necessary, you can simply play the instruments yourself the way that you want the parts played as opposed to having to explain it or having a bass or a drum part you're not comfortable with. So just for time's sake, I thought many years ago that it would be helpful to me if I could just play the instruments myself.
Speaker: so I could at least write the songs, get a general arrangement of the song. If necessary, I can always have someone come in later who's a more skilled player, if necessary. But for the most part, if you've got the discipline to sit down with your guitar or your piano or your drums or your singing, whatever it is, eventually with enough repetition, with enough practice, you'll probably get quite good at it.
Speaker: Yeah, well, I applaud that because I think also having different experiences gives you a broader experience and a better experience. Really, if I'm playing guitar, that's what I play, but I try to play drums. I'm not great at it, but I've tried everything. And I think when you're relating to someone that you're playing with, you can relate to them better because you understand what they're feeling when they're doing their part on the keyboards or the guitar or whatever, too. That's very true. Yeah. It helps to...
Speaker: I like to play with people that are able to play more than one instrument. So as opposed to just a band, bass, drums, guitar, piano, singer, I'm kind of bored with that. I've seen that. And in fact, I've been in many of those types of setups. I'm more interested in the bass player can play drums. I can play guitar. The keyboard player plays bass. Everybody sings. I'm much more interested in the future in looking at something like that.
Speaker: Especially visually because it's yeah, it's great to be up front and you know It's great to be the lead singer or the drummer but it's also nice as a musician to have a little flexibility because My bass player who plays drums won't play drums the way I play drums And my guitarist won't play like you play guitar or like I play guitar. So we all bring something unique to the instrument but you're right having something in common understanding of the the technique to playing keyboards or
Speaker: chord progressions or things that a drummer thinks and the physical skills that you need. I think it really helps to have an understanding of your musicians in your band of what they've done to learn their instrument. I mean, personally, I don't play the bass. I've never played the bass. And although it only has four strings, that's one of the few instruments I never picked up. I was never curious or
Speaker: Maybe because, you know, lead singers, drummers and guitarists get the chicks. There's lots of bass player jokes. That's true. Unless you're Paul McCartney. Yeah, it's true. But no, it's a good point. And I applaud you for doing that because, you know, again, as a drummer, you're trying to write songs. You have to have some sort of affinity for keyboards or guitar. And I originally wanted to play drums and I realized very quickly, like, if I'm going to sing and play songs and write songs, I'm going to have to play guitar. So I
Speaker: Guitar became my dominant instrument But then I've said many times like for guitar players take drum take guitar lessons from your drummer because if you want to be a rhythm guitar player you can play the rhythms along with the drummer and I love doing that and I know what it feels like to play the rhythms on the drums and then I can play them on the guitar exactly, that's a great point and and it's funny because rhythm guitar is a
Speaker: are a rare breed, and they're very, very underappreciated rhythm guitarists. But as you say, one of the jobs of the rhythm guitarist is, as the name implies, to supply some kind of rhythm, not necessarily a solo. You have another guitarist that's doing that. But I mean, if you look at the Stones as far as rhythm guitarists, or the Beatles as far as rhythm guitarists, or ACDC as far as rhythm guitarists,
Speaker: It's a job that's very underappreciated, but extremely necessary. Yeah, absolutely. And it locked lock in with the drummer and play the rhythms. It's not just playing power chords. It's playing rhythms along with the drummer and the drummer's the glue that holds everything together. Exactly. And if you've got it, if you've got a tight bass player, which hopefully is one of the bass players that knows to lock in to the drummer and you add the rhythm guitarist on top of that with his strumming techniques or different types of strumming.
Speaker: Then you've got a really tight bass that you can add the guitar and the keyboards and the vocals on top. But without that foundation, it's all going to fall apart. In fact, the bass player and the drummer in most bands, in my opinion, are really the glue.
Speaker: You add your rhythm guitar on there, on top of that, to make it chunky. You've got a lead guitarist who's doing the solos. You've got a keyboard player usually playing block chords like Deep Purple, for example. And then you can throw the vocals on top of that. But if the bass player and the drummer are not locked in, in lock step, there'll be a kind of push and pull effect. It might be hard to explain, but something would just sound off.
Speaker: And that's why the bass player and the drummer, you usually see the bass player in a lot of bands standing in front of the bass drum. So he can know exactly what the bass drum is playing, even though they've rehearsed it many, many times. Sometimes when you get out of the recording studio or the rehearsal studio and you get on the road, after about a month or so, you notice that it's not as tight as it was. It's people are not playing exactly. Then it starts to drift a little bit.
Speaker: And that's the time when you have to go back and say, okay, let's do the song, just bass and drums. I want to hear exactly what the bass player and the drumming on the drummer are doing. I don't want to hear any guitar or any keyboards. I just want to focus listening to those two parts and see if they're locked in. If the, if the drummer is doing a busy, let's call it a busy pattern on the bass drum and the bass player is playing a busy pattern.
Speaker: Well, the guy that's trying to sing over the top of that, there's not going to be a lot of space. It's really important that the bass player and the drummer, the bass player is usually playing the tonic or the root of the chord, not always, but usually. And the drummer's playing the basic rhythm, the pulse of the tune. And so it's vital, and you learn this early in bands, just as you and I did, that the bass player and the drummer have to be tight. Yeah.
Speaker: If they're not tight, whatever you add on top of it, it's just not going to sound quite right. And you can't figure it out. The layperson can't figure it out. There's just kind of this push -pull effect. And that's usually based on the fact that the drummer and the bass player are not synchronized. Got to be synchronized very exactly. And it's a real skill.
Speaker: Yeah, and it's good point because it seems like a subtle point for an outsider sort of looking at it, but it's not a subtle point. It's a foundational point to making the songs what they need to be. Exactly. And as far as if you get into the studio, a bass player and a drummer change. We change the way we play. When we're playing live on tour, it tends to be a little busier or a little freer. As we're recording it in the studio, we have a fairly concise idea
Speaker: of what's going on. It's got to be fairly structured. And also, when you add in the fact that we're miking the instruments in a different way than we do on tour, everything's very close and independent. And so the point I'm making is there's a real difference between a live show and the recorded version of that song.
Speaker: So you've got to be of two different minds. Some musicians can't get that through their head. For example, you might do a version that you did on the record, but when you go to play it on tour, because it's only a three and a half minute song, you might expand it a bit for the live version. You might add a second guitar solo. You might add a double chorus. You might add whatever you want, because you're not quite as structured as you are in the studio. In the studio, at least with Hellfield,
Speaker: We were writing three and a half minute, four minute pop rock songs. And in concert, obviously, if you do 12, three minute songs, unless you're the Beatles, it doesn't work.
Speaker: It's over quickly. Yeah, that's true. And it's a good point you make between the difference between the studio and the live. Like I do prefer live. The studio can be an artificial environment. I mean, I've spent hundreds of hours in there and you almost suck the life out of the songs by the time you're trying to focus so much to get them perfect. And then once you get them so they sound close to perfect, all the life has been sucked out of them. It's just an artificial environment. So you've got to kind of change your thinking. So that's a good point. Well, you have to.
Speaker: You have to change your thinking because as you say, you know in the studio As you and I know we can do as many takes as you want when we're playing live on stage There's only one take Absolutely and and either you get it or you don't Whereas in the recording studio you can sit there all day as you say hundreds of hours. I personally don't record that way I'm not interested in perfection at all. I'm interested in the spirit
Speaker: and the intent and the sincerity of the song. And so, especially when it comes to vocals, instead of doing, you know, 30, 40 takes, I could never do that. I don't, I do two takes, maximum three. And if I don't have it by the third take, we'll just move on to the next song and I'll come back to it. Because your head's not there after the fourth take, you're not in the same place mentally, physically either.
Speaker: might be getting a bit hoarse by the third or fourth take. And what you're doing is, with each take that you do, it's getting further and further away, I think, from what you want. So if I don't get it in the first couple of takes, that's okay. But I'm certainly, I mean, I've heard stories of Celine Dion doing a hundred vocal takes for David Foster. To me, that's absurd because psychologically, psychological, as you say, every time you go to the mic
Speaker: And then the producer says, no, let's try this. Let's do that. Every single time you try and do another take, you're not in the same head space at all. You're, you're just not. So I'm from the school with, I let's go in, let's bang off the vocal. And if it doesn't work the first second, third time, that's okay. I'll just come back to it a little later.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a good point because I think there was a, I don't know if it's a true story, but a story about Van Halen when they were first recording as well, that they wanted that raw energy and they were trying to capture that raw energy. And you don't get that on the 15th take of the song, right? You got to get it in the first two or three takes and then, you know, you're having fun.
Speaker: So no, I agree with that. And then again, you know, some, some producers like the Steely Dan's and stuff, they go over, I mean, you listen to, um, you know, the making of peg, for example, right. And Michael McDonald's talking about, you know, how many three days on the back vocals and how many different syllables you can pronounce. And, and it, yeah, it comes out good, but it's, it's, it's almost, I don't want to say overly good, but it's so perfected.
Speaker: It's almost sterile. I know what you're saying. You want to capture the spirit. You're not just making a song like a scientist. Yeah, I don't. Maybe if you're from the conservatory and you're really into the theory and you're actually reading the notes off a page in the studio, which again, I've never done that, then I understand that. Steely Dan, obviously, great band.
Speaker: fantastic songs. But of course, they came from either Berklee or Juilliard, one or the other. So their approach to music and songwriting is completely different than mine because I just don't have the theoretical experience or knowledge necessary to process a song the way that they might. And I love Steely Dan. I mean, it's some amazing stuff. But as you say, you can almost hear
Speaker: the number of takes it took to get it that pristine. And I'm looking for that Van Halen really ambient, crunchy sound. And I'll go with that as opposed to 300 takes. A band like Steely Dan, their whole approach is different. And I think it's because they're coming from more of a jazz background than a rock and roll background. Yeah, I think that's right. And Van Halen would never have been Van Halen if they were produced like Steely Dan.
Speaker: I don't think so because Ted Templeman basically just turned everything up to 11. Yeah. Come on. And that's, that's the other difference. The other difference is, uh, again, to use Steely Dan or a rock and roll band. When I record, what I do is I take all of the equipment we use live on stage and I put it all in the recording studio. That includes the PA.
Speaker: Nice. That's a good idea. Sometimes even the lights just so that we can have a mood. Yeah. And and and what we do is I want to sound on record like I do live. I don't want to sound live like I do on record. Yeah. Good point. And there's a big difference there. And so the way that I do that is we set up all the gear in the studio. Deep Purple used to record that way. The Who used to record that way.
Speaker: In other words, I just forget I'm in a studio. We set up all the gear, all the amps, all the everything that we would normally use and we just play. And then the tapes rolling and I'm kind of almost unaware of it because I'm not in that head space. I'm in a playing live with my guys. We're all in the studio together, which doesn't happen a lot these days either. I can look in their eyes. It's just like we're on stage.
Speaker: Yeah, that's a great point because the thing is you look at an album like Machine Head and stuff like those guys went in there they had pieces of songs and they just went in there and set everything up and just rock and roll like a
Speaker: like a down and dirty rock and roll band and very skilled. Everyone was a virtuoso player obviously, but came out with one of the most brilliant albums ever, right? Absolutely. And raw too, just had that raw sort of energy to it. So, no, I appreciate you saying, we kind of went down a bunny trail there a little bit, but it's an important one. I really appreciate your comments on that because I think you're bang on. I've been in the studio where it just feels sterile and you're singing the same parts and playing the same parts and you're trying so hard to get it perfect that it's not perfect.
Speaker: It won't be perfect. It won't be perfect. But then, you know, you can go the other way. There are examples of bands that have used the studio as a kind of lab. For example, Sgt. Peppers. Sgt. Peppers was conceived in the studio with George Martin. You couldn't have played that stuff live. Well, today you can with synthesizers and drum machines and such.
Speaker: But back in the old days, the old days, the Beatles never performed Sgt. Pepper's live or Abbey Road or the White Album because they just physically couldn't. And also by the time they got to Sgt. Pepper's, they had decided, screw this with touring. It's insane. It's just insanity. What we'll do is we'll just go into the studio and we'll use the studio as a laboratory, really. And luckily they had the professor, George Martin,
Speaker: And so they were able to conceive this album really in the studio, whereas most of the early Beatles stuff, it was John and Paul sitting down with a piano or a guitar and writing songs the old way. Yeah. Sergeant Pepper's and Magical Mystery Tour and Abbey Road and the White Album changed all of that. And again, of course, the Beatles were innovators in so many ways.
Speaker: But that's an important way because nobody had ever used the studio that way before.
Speaker: Yeah, so it's like a studio generated album where you're in, like you said, a laboratory is a good way to put it, right? You're just kind of trying a bunch of different things and not necessarily thinking about the live part of it till later, I guess, when it hits. So that leads me to my next question though. I was curious, so you came from England to Canada, a lot of bands went over to England to try to make it. So how did you end up coming to Canada to find your fame and fortune over here?
Speaker: Well, I was a child at the time I came to Canada when I was about 13, I think. My family moved here, so I didn't really have much choice in the matter. And I had very little frame of reference for Canada. I thought of Mounties and Eskimos, I think, like everybody does. And then I got here, and of course it was like a raging blizzard. I'd never seen a blizzard before. And of course, everyone was speaking French.
Speaker: So that was okay for me because I'd learned French in England at school. In England, we learned English. We learned French and German and Italian. So I had a grasp of French. And so I was in Montreal. And then I was playing the drums about 14, 15. And then by the time I was 17, I was playing in clubs and bands. And then I got my break, if you will.
Speaker: which was playing drums for John Lee Hooker when I was about 17. Oh, cool. Yeah. So yeah, you were obviously a young guy, you had an affinity for it. I mean, some people just get it and some people don't. You're one of the guys that just kind of got the feel of it and you started
Speaker: playing clubs in, in high school. I imagine if you were 16, 17 and then, uh, so the, the John Lee hooker story, that was sort of like, uh, he did the same thing that Chuck Berry did, right? He didn't have a band. He just basically showed up and yeah. And, uh, boy, that's a mixed bag. You're right. You're right. Because, uh, a lot of those older guys, Chuck Berry and John Lee hook, a lot of the blues guys, they, they always use a pickup band. They don't have a band.
Speaker: And you're right. So that's why from night to night, the quality of the performance will vary quite wildly. He's never met the band. He's never met the band and he's never going to see them again. Hooker in this case. And so there's very little interaction, which is strange because usually when you play with people, there's some type of social basis or connection, or at least you get to say hello before the show. Not with him.
Speaker: I just can't imagine doing it. Like, could you imagine doing that? If I said, hey, Mitchell, you're going on tour, you're just going to pick up a band and you're going to walk in and play. Well, I could. I could bizarre though. I mean, it would be a real crapshoot, right? Well, yeah, because there's the unknown factor. The unknown factor is if you don't know the person or how they play or what they play or what their style is, what their temperament is, what their personality is, what dues they've paid, who their influences are.
Speaker: That helps give you a snapshot of the person. But if you're a good enough musician, then let's compare it to going to a jam. You don't know any of those people. You've never played with them before. You don't even know their names. But if you're a good enough musician, you can just jump up on stage and do a whole set.
Speaker: Well, yeah. Yeah. Good point, except that, you know, and you're not charging $50 a ticket for people. I guess, I guess if you're a John Lee hooker, if you're a very famous, well -known top level guy, I guess you can get away with it. People are still happy to be there. So well, good for you. I mean, that was a good experience for you. Obviously it sort of catapulted you forward in some measure, I suppose. And then how did you end up in Toronto? Like you, you formed a health field then around 77. You were, we were in Toronto by then.
Speaker: Yeah. At that point, I'd really done everything there was for me to do in Montreal. I played all the clubs and I played with this one and that one. And at that point I was starting to write songs on the guitar and the piano. And in those days, Dan, you had to go to New York, Los Angeles, Nashville, or Toronto if you wanted to get a record deal. Because in those days in Quebec, we did have record companies in Quebec, but mainly for French acts. Okay.
Speaker: Toronto was the big deal in those days. Of course, now with the internet, you can record anywhere. Toronto isn't, you don't have to go live in Toronto. Also, I'd already been in Nashville prior to that. I was a session drummer in Nashville for a couple of years, just playing for other people in the studio. And I didn't really want to go to New York and I didn't want to at that time go to California, although eventually I did. So I just moved to Toronto and I,
Speaker: had this little batch of songs that I'd started to write. And again, I didn't really even know the names of the chords at the time. I was just experimenting. And I came up with five or six songs and put them on a tiny little cassette. And then I quite brazenly walked into CBS Records and really demanded they give me a record deal. So and that was in Toronto? Yeah, that was in Toronto. Yeah, I got to the head of A &R, who was Bob Gallo.
Speaker: a very widely respected producer who had worked with Benny King. He worked with James Brown. He worked with the Rascals and he was the head of A &R at CBS. And I bluffed my way into his office and within about 20 minutes, he said, yeah, okay, let's do it.
Speaker: Kind of a bold young man. You were I was Good for you. Well, those are nice stories because hey, you gotta gotta get what you need, right? You either gonna take it or just go home Well, that was my choice. Yeah, my choice was either you know Come to Toronto and get the deal that you wanted or I guess you could go back to Montreal or play bars in Toronto I really didn't want to do that. I had quite the vision and the
Speaker: The plan, if you will, a little roadmap I had, move to Toronto, get a record deal, make a record, go on tour. It sounds ridiculous now that I think about it. But that's what I did. I followed the plan. I followed the plan and I was so naive and things were so different back then that I guess you could get away with it. I could follow the plan. And once I got the record deal,
Speaker: They didn't want a solo artist. They were looking for a band because they had lots of singer -songwriters. They wanted a band. So I found a band that was already formed and I took that band and they became Hellfield. And then we went into the studio and recorded the first album, Hellfield. And then we had two singles, which did quite well. And then we went on tour. I think the first year we toured with
Speaker: The Little River Band did about half dozen gigs with them. And then we did Across Canada Tour with Triumph, which was great. Really nice guys, fabulous guys. And then it was time to write and record a second album, which we did, Night Music. And then of course it was time to go out on the road and promote that one also. And I think we had two singles off of that album.
Speaker: So basically for those three or four years, I was either in the studio or on the road. Yeah, good. Well, I got a few questions I want to ask you about that because as I delved into it, there are a couple of things emerged for me, but let me take a quick break and we'll be right back. We're talking to Mitchell Field from the Canadian band Hell Field and we'll be right back. Great.
Speaker: You can hear music from today's guests and other Canadian musicians from the 60s to 80s every Tuesday and Thursday on Dusty Discs Radio, including one -hit wonders, regional favorites, songs from the top and bottom of the charts, TV show theme songs, commercials, and a news clip or two from back in the day. Listen online at dustydiscsradio .com or download the TuneIn radio app to your tablet or smartphone. Search Dusty Discs Radio and mark it a favorite. Now let's get back to our special guest.
Speaker: All right, welcome back. It's Dan here. We're talking to Mitchell Field from the band Hell Field about his experiences. And I just had a couple aside questions, if I may. When I was doing research for this interview, it looks like there's a younger artist using the name Hell Field. Are you familiar with that? Are you aware of that? I think they're a German band, aren't they?
Speaker: I'm not sure I just looked it up and there was a they look like young guys and they were the word Hellfield is in their name somehow or yeah I connected so I just know I I've seen that I've seen that I think they're from Europe somewhere okay but no affiliation but I think they're like heavy metal speed metal something like that
Speaker: Yeah. Odd that they wouldn't have Googled it and seen that the name has already been used. Strange, but it's just a coincidence. Yeah. And then the other thing was, did you know that the drummer Dave Gustafson out of Sudbury? He was from Sudbury. Yeah, the name is Fanonia.
Speaker: quite a well -known drummer. He ended up on the west coast. Well, he played with me for about eight years from 1995 to 2003. We were in the same band and he knows your guys. I think he played with one of the guys in your band afterwards. So he's a quite a well -known drummer, lives on the west coast now. So I was just curious about that.
Speaker: So you got signed to CBS record. That's exciting times for you guys. And then you ended up opening for the Little River Band and triumph. I can hear the influence of the Little River Band, like your songs. I mean, I must say very good, like it just the harmonies and the melodic nature of the songs. You know, it's really impressive. I listened to them and I'd heard a couple of those tunes before, but I didn't really hadn't got through the catalog or listened to a bunch of the songs and really good. And I just wondered where it was recorded and
Speaker: Bob Gallo produced it, obviously, right? Yeah, we recorded at Manta Sound Studios in Toronto. And yeah, well, they have kind of a pop sense to them because my whole background was really pop music, popular music, pop music. So I kind of have this roadmap, if you will, in my head every time I write a song.
Speaker: in the sense that I do want it to be commercial. I do want it to be successful. And I'm not one that's ever written a 10 or 12 minute progressive rock song. Because first of all, that's not my type of music. I certainly appreciate Rush and Yes and the progressive arm. But I always like to think melody and harmony and rhythm.
Speaker: And the song has to have a story that the listener can relate to all the way through. And if you combine all those elements, usually, if you're lucky, those are the components of a popular song.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And I can hear the influences of, you know, Styx and Triumph and LRB. It's like a heavier version of Little River Band because you've got the layered harmonies and really nice. And then songs like, like the Pact, that sounds really cool. You got a new video up, that just got up now, but that's, you got the cool synth intro, like you're using all the elements too. You got acoustic guitar in there, you got synth, got the really nice vocal, I mean, right up front. And then the layered harmonies, really, really good, really strong and good shots and good groove.
Speaker: Yeah. That's a good, that's a good song that in fact, that song has just been rerecorded by a band from Thunder Bay and the young generation, if you will. And I think they've posted it parallel 49 they're called out of a cool Thunder Bay. And they've done an amazing version of the pact. And in fact, and the bass player from Hellfield, James Lawson, played the bass on their version.
Speaker: Okay. So it's kind of cool actually. I, again, it's not note for note because I said, I told them do whatever you want with it. You know, don't, don't recreate our version. So you have our full blessing to do whatever you want with it. Yeah. And it's quite impressive. I must say it's quite impressive.
Speaker: Nice. Yeah. And I, and I liked the multifaceted, you know, when you recorded your songs like magic mistress, I listened to that too. And really good. Like you got a nice acoustic intro, the nice melody that's really draws you in and I can hear the LRB influence, but then you got it's riff. It turns into riff rock and you got the Hammond or get in there. I love all, I mean, all those things are that that's the, the elements of a wonderful recipe that makes a for cool tunes. Right. I think so. Yeah. I mean, magic mistress is a, is a great example of a,
Speaker: of a form of songwriting. And if you, you know, you can dissect it and analyze it, not that I like to, but there's a definite pattern when I wrote that song. And what happened with that one, Dan? I had the intro, which is, as you say, it's acoustic guitar. I think I'm playing 12 string there. And I had this idea for the opening, which was kind of melodic and lulls you in, as you say. And then before you know it, suddenly it gets really heavy.
Speaker: And I think what we did with that one was I had the first bit and then either Rick or Jamie, I can't remember, had the second bit and we just kind of jammed them together. And it worked out very well because it allows the song to build dynamically. Yes, yes, very much. You don't hear a lot of that anymore. It's unfortunate because dynamics, as you know, are so important in a band. Yeah. And sometimes when you play with people,
Speaker: You have to explain to them about dynamics. Yeah, it's great to be playing on 11 all the time. But if you're always on 11 dynamically, you've left yourself nowhere to go. Yeah, no, it's a great point. Like if you're starting out full blast, where are you going to go? But if you come from the other direction, and in a sense, you see, if you start fairly quietly, and if I start talking a little bit quieter,
Speaker: you instinctively will lean in. You will lean in physically, even if you're unaware of it. And so I use that trick in Magic Mistress because I understand that if you have this little kind of nice, delicate, if you will, opening, then the listeners carried away. Oh yeah, I like this. And we're just sailing along. And then suddenly it takes a turn and you go, wow,
Speaker: Now it's getting heavy. I really like this. So what you're doing is, or what I was doing was laying little breadcrumbs. That's what I was doing. Because if you pick up the first one, you're more likely to pick up the second one. And by the time you've picked up the third one, I've got you. You're into the song.
Speaker: Yeah, no, when I listen to it, because I try to listen to a bunch of the songs and sort of take notes in what strikes me, and that's what struck me about that song, exactly what you just described. So it was very intentional on my part, even though it was kind of the way that we wrote it wasn't as structured as some of the songs. It was, well, I've got this bit, you've got that bit. But I mean, even on Abbey Road, there's lots of that going on with Paul had the beginning and then John had the middle bit. And sometimes that's how you write songs.
Speaker: Yeah, sure. I mean, you just bring them together, right? You have a producer or some kind of overarching sort of mind or creative force that brings it together and makes it what it needs to be, right? Definitely so. And I think you did real well with that one. And then songs like Too Long, you got the, it's a bit of a different sort of flavor. You got the piano intro and this kind of a fast shuffle, lots of harmonies, good melody, really nice lead vocal in that actually. I really thought that was strong and then a super cool guitar solo. So, I mean,
Speaker: You know, all the elements are there. It's super cool. And then. Well, that's, that's a perfect example, Dan. Too long is a perfect example of my very cynical approach to writing a hit. What I did was I started with a piece of blank paper and at the top of the piece of paper, I wrote down three dot 50, which meant this song was going to be three minutes and 50 seconds long. Oh, okay. Then Rick.
Speaker: the late Rick Lamb, the late great Rick Lamb on keyboards. He had the intro, dinga dinga dinga dinga dinga dinga dinga ding, which is a common kind of riff. It always reminded me of Doctor My Eyes by Jackson Brown. Same intro. So I said to Rick, just keep playing that bit, dinga dinga dinga dinga dinga ding, and all it is is it's an octave. Two notes, ding da dee da dee da dee da dee. In fact, strangely enough, the pact also opens with
Speaker: the two octave split. And so then Rick played me the verse that he had and I just wrote some words and he played me the chorus and said, Oh, that's good. That's a good strong chorus. I can hear blocks of vocals here. And then we went, I think then it's first chorus verse chorus. And I think there's a nice guitar solo and then an old trick that, you know, uh, the semi -tone modulation. Sure. Yeah.
Speaker: Now, of course, the layperson doesn't know what that means, but they know it physically and emotionally.
Speaker: you and I do a semitone modulation. They don't know the technical term for it. But they go, oh, what happened there? Yeah, it's a little lift, right? It just lifts you a little. It's a little lift. And it's a very old trick that songwriters use. Stevie Wonder uses modulations. I mean, I think, and I just called to say, I love you. I think he has two or three modulations, which is unusual. Barry Manilow, another pop songwriter, he uses a lot of modulations. And that's just a,
Speaker: a trick we have in our tool bag. But I very cynically with Rick set out to construct a three minute, 50 second pop song. And I think we did quite well because it sounds like a single.
Speaker: Yeah, no, it's really good and it's produced really well too. Like I said, the vocal jumped out at me too, really right up front, really clear, really nice. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, it's good. And then you do the song you've got to admit and that's kind of like more arena rock sort of struck me, heavy guitar intro and it's a little heavier and it's cool. So you got the wide range of tunes too, right? You're not stuck in sort of one genre. I don't want to say in one genre, but you're willing to
Speaker: to do what you need to do to be melodic and be smooth and good. Well, yeah, I think so. Otherwise, you put yourself in a very small box. If it's just death rock, speed rock, whatever you want. Okay, that's great. I love that. But as a songwriter, Dan, one of the problems I was running into towards the end of the band was I was writing songs that were not appropriate for Hellfield.
Speaker: They didn't call for massive distorted guitars or giant Hammond B3s. They were a little more subtle than that. And so taking off my lead singer or drummer hat, if I wanted to be serious about being a songwriter, I had to look at songs out of that framework of bass, drums, guitar, piano. You know, I didn't want to get trapped in that as a songwriter.
Speaker: And as you say, you can hear the kind of, it varies. You could say, well, that's heavy metal, but wait a minute, that's top 40. And this is commercial, but that's a little bit progressive. So you have all of those influences in there.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think it works. You know, it's, it's, you can still, it's the discernible band, but you've got to branch out a little bit. There was a joke one time, somebody had said to ACDC, well, you did 12 albums that sound the same. And his response was no, that's not true. We did 13 albums that sound the same. Exactly. But they had a formula and they followed that formula very, and now of course it worked for them. Absolutely right. If you listen to ACDC, if you listen to ACDC, it's a
Speaker: Formula and if the formula works and people are buying your Material yeah, don't change it Yeah, you know the thing about AC DC if you notice there's never any harmonies all the choruses are sung in unison Interesting yeah, there's never a tambourine never it's bass straight drums guitar guitar and screaming and
Speaker: Meat and potatoes. Meat and potatoes. And of course, when you listen to Angus Young, if you have any musical history to call upon, you'll notice that every guitar solo he does is Chuck Berry. It's all Chuck Berry, just very loud. But I'll tell you this, I'll tell you this down out of the numerous bands I've seen in my life, life, ACDC are just amazing. Yeah. As far as volume.
Speaker: intensity when you see Angus on stage and the sweat is dripping off of him. I love it. Well those guys, I mean the thing again it's a formula and it works for them and it's like a knockout punch because they go bam bam bam they keep punching away and then one song after another after another it's like holy cow it's overwhelming but it works for them but you know what it's not everybody's cup of tea and I'm happy for them to do it but with the bands like yourself
Speaker: Um, I love the harm. Like I was a big sticks, Kansas, you know, foreigner. I'm a fan of those bands and I love the melody and the harmonies. And I don't mind if it's heavy. I just want it to be melodic. I don't like the screaming major chord power cord stuff. You know what I mean? I do. I do. Yeah. So, and then, uh, it's funny. I saw the picture. You were on eight track. You had eight tracks out. That's too funny. I didn't know we had eight tracks until I saw that. I didn't also, apparently we were on cassette, which I didn't know about either.
Speaker: And someone had sent me a picture of a little cassette, Hellfield. And when I saw that A -track, I had no idea that they issued Hellfield on A -track.
Speaker: And the eight track was like a practical flip a joke to people. I mean, if young people don't realize, but you know, halfway through the song that goes click and it changes to it. I mean, it was just so ill -conceived from the beginning. You'd also have, if I recall, you'd have, you'd have the bleed through from tracks. Yeah. That's absolutely right. I forgot about that. They would bleed to the other tracks. You hear a faintly hearing another song at the same time. Just a terrible idea.
Speaker: Okay, we're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. We're talking to Mitchell Field from the band Hell Field. Liner Notes has a VIP community and we'd love to have you as a member. Listen to the weekly episodes before the rest of the world, enjoy bonus podcasts, and be the first to know about upcoming guests. Oh yeah, the episodes also have no ads, breaks, or interruptions of any kind. Check out the details and become a member at linernotes .ca. That's linernotes .ca. Now let's get back to our special guest.
Speaker: And we're back talking to Mitchell Field, very interesting conversation, really happy to have you with us today. So tell me then with Hellfield, what happened? It's funny because I've said to a number of people, you've got the people at the top, the people that are superstars that make it, and then just below that, you've got all these bands that...
Speaker: Everything's in place. You got the tunes, you got the band together, you got the songs, you got the recording, you got some airplay. What happened? You almost made it. What would it have taken to get to the next level and what happened? Well, it's funny, good question, because after the second album, we were poised to go to the States. We had a big tour of Texas. They love Canadian bands in Texas, Dan Triumph, April Wine,
Speaker: They just love them in Texas. Just love them. And we were getting airplay in Texas. We were getting a lot of airplay in the Midwest. KSHE was playing us. And Los Angeles also. And so we were about to embark on a major tour. And at that point, CBS was acquired by Sony Records. And that was really the beginning of the end.
Speaker: Uh, when a new boss comes in, they have their own priorities, which is understandable. And the first thing they did was just cut a hundred bands from the label. Yeah. So that's your, you're only as good as your last day there, I guess. And it was very abrupt. Um, couldn't get anyone on the phone. And, uh, unfortunately they, they got rid of Bob Gallo, who was the head of A &R.
Speaker: And our executive producer was the chairman of CBS Records and they got rid of him too. So basically all the people on our team in our corner were suddenly gone. And that is the turning point right there because without a label in those days, it became more difficult to tour. It costs a lot of money to tour, as you know, and somewhat
Speaker: To some degree, the spirit of the band was a bit broken, understandably, and there was some personality conflicts, as is not unusual in bands when you've been together for five or six years.
Speaker: Oh yeah. Yeah. There's no doubt. We have a funny saying that, you know, how long has the band been together long enough to hate each other? Not that you, not literally, but there's tension there. And of course, I guess it's the ride too. Cause you're riding the wave. Like you got an album, you got airplay, you got everything. And it's just such a letdown when
Speaker: You know, in all those mid -level bands, I mean, you would be considered a mid -level band. Now they're going to ride their top bands, right? I mean, I think at one point, I think it was Garth Brooks, he was signed with Capitol Records. I think they said that something in the order of 70 or 75 % of all the revenue that came into that company was from that one artist. So they're going to ride him like a rented mule. Absolutely. And then everybody else. Absolutely. And the thing about it is we've got to take into account the times that we're talking about.
Speaker: During 1979 and following, there was a huge upheaval in the music business. And that upheaval was the fact that small independent labels were disappearing, Atlantic, Motown, RCA, Capitol, Island. They all just disappeared. And as of today, there are only three major labels left in the world.
Speaker: Well, like any other type of environment, business environment, if you only have two or three major players, what you're looking at is a monopoly. Yeah, they're the gatekeepers, right? If you don't have a deal with one of them, you're basically knocking on the door and nobody's answering. And in those days, they were the gatekeepers. The record companies were between you and you getting on the radio. Well, obviously,
Speaker: When we talk about today's musical environment the record companies are obsolete. They're dinosaurs. They're dead and In a sense they did it to themselves. Let's be honest. They could have at the time Napster came along They could have set up their own portal. They owned the content they had it in their vaults and what they should have done is
Speaker: instead of being pious about it and saying, well, we're the record companies, we can never be touched. How will people get their music on the radio without us? They didn't understand the new wave that was coming.
Speaker: technology. I think that's a good, that's a good point because you're right. And what they did was instead of taking a positive proactive approach and putting it out there and getting a revenue stream from it, they attacked Napster and they were suing people and they were spoofing tunes and stuff to try to discourage people from doing it. And the genie was out of the bar. Exactly. I mean, you can close down Napster, which they did, but the next day there was another one.
Speaker: And another wire. The toothpaste is out of the tube and the record company had every opportunity to be a leader in the forefront of digital music. They owned all the content. It was in their vaults because of short -sightedness and stupidity, not to put too fine a point on it. But at that point in the music industry, the record companies were not run by musicians anymore or ex -musicians.
Speaker: They were run by accountants. That's going to have a big effect on who you sign and who you promote. But getting back to your Garth Brooks story, it's funny you should say that because the record company's business model from 75 to about 1980, when it all collapsed, was this. Sign a bunch of bands and pray to God that one of them has a massive hit.
Speaker: So for example, example, Rumors by Fleetwood Mac. That one album saved the record company that year. The year before that, it was Frampton Comes Alive. And after that, it was Thriller. My point is this, if your business plan is to sign a hundred bands and hope that one of them
Speaker: can sell enough records to cover the other 99, Dan, your business is in trouble. Yeah, that's a recipe for disaster, but I think that's right because most of the bands, and I heard a record exec say years ago that most of the bands that they signed to a record label never actually make money for the record label. Or for themselves.
Speaker: Or for them. Yeah, of course you're doing the starvation tour. Right. But I mean, someone someone's making money in those days. Again, it's different now because of digital. But in those days, we did have royalties. We did have songwriting royalties and publishing royalties. And in those days, that's where the money was to be made. Again, the layperson doesn't know the
Speaker: That end of it and of course they don't need to but the fact is if your song gets played on the radio And you wrote that song and you own the publishing to that song you're entitled for your intellectual Talent to make some money from that Yes, and conversely You could have someone who sang a hit song and who is essentially a star or a moderate level star who's not making dime They're not making offer that scent
Speaker: And that's the big misconception because people think, wow, that guy's got a hit song on the radio. He must be a millionaire to your point. Not at all. Unless you wrote the song or had some part of the publishing, then all you will make is whatever you made for the session. And there's many bands, many, many bands, you and I know that have hit records and they're making 500 bucks a week.
Speaker: Yeah, no, that's totally right. And again, the perception is, you know, you're driving around, especially back in those days, the record companies were splashing around a lot of money. There was a lot of limos and a lot of parties and everything else.
Speaker: But that didn't trickle down to the bands always, sometimes if you got to a certain level. And that's what I get to the point of the gatekeepers and the money they were splashing around. A lot of it didn't get to the bands. And then I've talked to lots of people about breaking in the US because that's the big thing that the Canadian bands want to do. And it just takes a lot of money and you have to have a record company behind you that's going to splash around a lot of cash to make it happen. I'm just reading the book, Hitman. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Speaker: I mean, that the mob was involved and the payoffs and name it. Yes. If you go back, I mean, to the days of Paola in the fifties, the entire business, radio and music, the entire business was based on envelopes full of money. Yeah. And it wasn't at all unusual for the record company representative to go to the radio station and say, here, here's a bag of money. Play my artist.
Speaker: And they did. Of course, it all exploded in a giant scandal, Alan Freed, and a lot of DJs, their careers were ruined because of that. But in those days, it's just the way it was. When you skip forward to the 70s, as you say, there was a lot of excess. There were a lot of limousines. There was a lot of satin jackets. There was a lot of cocaine. And they were spending tons and tons of money.
Speaker: And a lot of it went up people's noses, to be honest with you. Yeah. And it had to be recouped at some point as well, right? Well, supposedly. But if it's on your recoupables, I mean, you've got to, I've talked to lots of guys that said, well, we need to sell half a million albums just to break even. Right. You would never, you would never cover the recoupables. The deal is structured, the standard recording contract deal that I signed and most of us signed back then.
Speaker: it was structured to screw you. It was indentured servitude. There's no other way to look at it. And the thing was, if you were a young musician, you could either take it or you could leave it. And if you want to leave it, there's another young musician outside the door that's willing to sign it. But to your point, every single penny they spent making those two albums, I owed them for.
Speaker: And what they do is to get the money back, they will take that recoupable owing money from your royalties. So that's why they want your royalties to cover the cost. It's all very, you know, it's just business.
Speaker: Yeah, but it was in many ways, it was a dirty business because it was an exploitative business. You read John Fogarty's book, Fortunate Son. He signed away songs he hadn't even written yet. He promised them 160 tunes and he'd had like five hit albums and he was at 37, he said. He said, I signed away songs I hadn't even written yet. I didn't even know that was possible. Once you sign your publishing over, and I think he was with fantasy, wasn't he?
Speaker: Yeah, and it was yeah, that was the label that and he was at the point where he couldn't even perform his own songs live
Speaker: No, he refused because Saul's aunts got all the money for it when he did his own songs. But that was an egregious and egregious example of what happens in the music business. But a lot of people got sort of the lesser part of that, but it was a push -pull. Like, what are you going to do? Because as you said, if you don't sign with one of the gatekeepers, you're not going to have the money that's going to push you into where you need to be pushed into. So the idea, you record a nice album, you wrote some good songs. Well, so what? I mean, that's just the starting point, right?
Speaker: It is. It is. It's the it's the starting point. And then you've got someone like Bruce Springsteen, who physically couldn't tour because he was tied up in this awful lawsuit with Michael Pell. He couldn't he his songs couldn't even be published in chord books because of that lawsuit. And I mean, David Bowie, the Stones, the Beatles, you know, when Alan Klein came in to manage the Beatles and I, you know, Alan Klein himself
Speaker: had some pretty awful stories, but at least he managed to sue Capitol Records and get the Beatles a ton of money that they were owed. Klein also managed the stones and he sued, I think it was Abco, and also was able to get money back for the stones that they had been screwed on. Bowie had a long, long legal dance and Tom Petty is another example.
Speaker: Now, if I can give you four or five, six examples just off the top of my head, that would seem to me that this is pretty widespread in our business.
Speaker: Yeah, it's a complete pattern. And then, of course, the other thing about reconciliations, you know, the record companies are supposed to give you your reconciliations every whatever it is, four months, six months, every year, and show you how many units were sold. And of course, they pad their expenses, you know, so there's expensive lunches and limos and all that stuff that go on to the quote unquote expenses. That's right. Promote, you know, and it's a scam. And it's totally obvious that it's a scam, but there's nothing you can do about it. No, there's nothing. One thing that I did and
Speaker: And I structured a deal with CBS, which was quite unique at the time because they wanted all of my publishing and they wanted all of my writers royalties. And I told them, no, I won't. Now that was the standard deal. And I knew many people before me that signed with labels that, that, that gave them the right to a hundred percent of their publishing and a hundred percent of their writers royalties, but I wouldn't. I told them, no, I said, you know what? That's my pension one day. Yeah.
Speaker: I'll give you 50 % of my writers and 50 % of my publishing. And that became a real sticking point because they were adamant that I'm nobody and they're somebody. Well, that's right. That's what you were talking about the take it or leave it. Right. And I thought that's right. And I told them that if you're seriously interested in signing me, which you are, you must hear something. And if you hear something that you think will make money, excuse me,
Speaker: but I'd like to make some of that money too. Yeah. And that's a fair point and good for you for making it and for standing your ground because I think that's a completely legitimate, you know, beside the fact that you're advocating for yourself, you're correct in what you're saying. I was very, you know, again, maybe I was naive because they were looking at me like I had a square head, but I had already, before I even went to CBS, I had done my homework regarding royalties, mechanicals, revenue streams, publishing,
Speaker: Cause I'm a businessman, Dan. I'm not your typical musician. The typical musician ends up 50, 60 years old broke and broken hearted. Yeah. Part of my plan right from the beginning was to navigate my way around those pitfalls as best I could still retaining some, uh, monetary success, but also not selling my soul completely to the devil.
Speaker: Yeah, good for you. Well, it's good for you to do it. And it's harder to do it when you're younger, right? Looking back when you get older and you see the whole landscape, it's easier to sort of put everything together. But when you're going through it and you're a young guy, that's where the challenge is, right? Because you're in the middle of the storm and you're trying to figure out what to do. And good for you for standing your ground. I'm glad to hear that because as you said, and as we know,
Speaker: we can prove it. Lots of people didn't and they got shafted. And I've talked to lots of people just on my podcast here that it got really, really ripped off, like really taken advantage of. It's very, very unfortunate. The reason, the only reason I can give you for this same situation to keep happening over and over and over again, there can only be one reason. And that reason is that the musicians are not smart enough
Speaker: They don't understand the music business, the business of music. And if you're going to be in any industry, it's really helpful to understand how the business works.
Speaker: A lot of us don't. And don't apologize for advocating for yourself. I was dealing with an agent one time and he was trying to pull a fast one on me and I said, well, I'm not going to accept that. And he goes, well, you're hard to deal with. And I said, well, if asking to be treated like a human being and treated fairly makes me hard to deal with, then I'm hard to deal with. Absolutely. That's the way he looked at it because I was advocating for myself and sticking up for myself. He labeled me as hard to deal with.
Speaker: Well, I've been labeled hard to deal with, but the people that say that I don't really care about. So if someone's saying to me that I'm being hard to deal with because they're trying to screw me over, then you can call me anything you want. But especially at this point in my life, I simply choose not to deal with people like that anymore.
Speaker: No, that's totally right. And I've said the same thing. I gravitate towards people who will treat me like a human being and treat me with respect and try to have a win -win, a fair relationship. Lots of people back then, and even some still now, if they exploit you and they take advantage of you, they just look at that as a good day business. And I just don't play that game. I'm not interested in that. Well, one reason for that, Dan, is unlike a lot of other industries, let's look at management.
Speaker: There's no regulations. There's no certificates. There's no degrees these people need. Let's look at booking agents. Most of them are ex musicians, but there's no, there's no rules in that business as you well know. And, and when you have a wildly unregulated business and let's not even get into promoters, when it's completely unregulated, then it's the wild, wild West.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And you got to find a way, you get your six gun on and you got to go out and try to survive in that world. And some people do and, and some people just get out of it all together. Right. It's, it's, it's sad, but yes, there are many casualties along the way, um, financially, physically, emotionally. Um, it's not the story book that some people think it is because.
Speaker: Getting back to the story of the kid in the record producer's office, and he really wants the deal. I think I was about 19 or 20, something like that. And all I really wanted to do was be famous at the time. That was my goal. I didn't know how, but I just knew I wanted to be on stage. I wanted to make records. I wanted to be on the radio. I wanted to be on tour. And even at that point, I still understood that there must be some mechanics to the business here.
Speaker: And I got to tell you, most of the musicians that I've met in my lifetime do not have a grasp of the music business at all. They're constantly surprised that they're being screwed by their manager or their agent or their record company or their promoter. Now, of course, as you, the more years you have in the business, the more you learn. Unfortunately, we're all innocent at some point.
Speaker: But over the course of years of running into these situations and problems, you develop a strategy to try and stay out of those pitfalls. Yeah. The young musician doesn't have that book of strategy yet. He hasn't lived enough. Yeah. He's just in love with his music. But that's what they exploit, right? They know that. Yes. That's the point. That's exactly right. They say, listen, kid, go down to Steve's music store.
Speaker: Here's a thousand bucks, buy whatever you want. Are you kidding me? Like my dream come true. Now I don't realize at the time that that thousand bucks just cost me five grand. Well, that's the whole story of John Fogerty. He said they were riding around on limos. They were treated like rock stars. They went back to their bank account and there's nothing there. And they're going, where did all the money go? Well, Saul's Ants had all the money.
Speaker: So, well, let me ask you then, so looking back on your career, what would you change about the course of your career? Like in how it was handled, like maybe the managers, the band mates, or, you know, were you mistreated? Like, what would you do differently if you could go and do it again? That's a good question. Cause I don't like to, to live in yesterday. I like to learn from yesterday. Yeah, fair enough. But I would think that the things that we went through, I went through all the band went through management.
Speaker: Yeah, it would have been nice if we didn't have to do that dance with more than one manager, as a matter of fact. One manager I had to sue, another manager I had to take to the union, another manager we had to threaten physically. And at that point, I started managing the band myself and I have managed myself ever since. So even though it was a royal screwing, I don't really regret that because I learned something from it.
Speaker: Yeah, I suppose, but looking back, it would be nice if you had a friend like, like my manager is a good friend of mine. I love the guy and I trust him with my life. Well, that's important. That's very important. If I could find someone I trusted with my life, Dan, then I would have them involved in my projects. Uh, over the last, certainly 10 years or so, the business has changed so much and some of that has to do with digital and technology. But I'm talking about the organic business.
Speaker: I don't know that I would have changed much. It would have been nice if the record company would have come through for that big tour. But in England, we say that's his maybe. It would be nice, but it didn't. It would have been nice if some of the guys in the band wouldn't have had some of the problems that we did have. But again, that's kind of like just living in a dysfunctional family.
Speaker: And you and I know being in a band, sometimes it's like a dysfunctional family. Oh, no doubt. I mean, you've chirped at each other plenty of times. You've had arguments. You've, you know, you're afraid nerves. You see everybody at different times. The time on stage is only the hour or the hour and a half you do in your show.
Speaker: That's the good time. Exactly. It's call times and airports and traveling and stuff. Sound checks. We travel with them. We eat with them. We rehearse with them. We tour with them. We record with them. We write songs with them. And like in any family that's dysfunctional, you might have the alcoholic grandfather or the heroin addict, son -in -law, whatever it is.
Speaker: And of course, those are problems that have played the music industry, not just the music industry, but specifically drugs and alcohol will kill your band. It'll kill your band. It'll kill your band members. It'll kill your spirit. It'll kill everything. And we had, we had some of those problems and unfortunately I did lose Rick Lamb and I did lose my drummer, Bill Smith to outside influences, let's say. So I regret that happened.
Speaker: But for the most part, I just look at it as a lesson learned because you know, when you're young, when you're naive and you make a mistake that costs you financially, if you're smart, you will learn from that mistake. Yeah. Just like in any, any life experience, but especially in the music business, because Dan, you don't get to make too many mistakes in this business.
Speaker: Yeah. No, that's, that's a good point. And I, I know from myself earlier, I mean, I partied a bit in the eighties and stuff, but I got, I was very intolerant of drug and alcohol problems. And I had guys out of the band because then I avoided the, you know, the dummy dust and all that crap. I just, I just thought that that wasn't going to go anywhere good. So, you know, we, we partied a little bit, but, uh, I was very intolerant of that. Cause I just knew it, it just sucked the life out of a band and you know, young, young, silly guys do young, silly things, you know, and, uh,
Speaker: But that's okay. As life goes on, I think you get smarter. And I've often said, too, you can't learn from your own mistakes. You have to learn from other people's mistakes, too, because you don't have time in life to make them all yourself. That's right. That's right. Not survive it. We make as many as we can and see if we survive. But I'll tell you this. I have seen the horror. I've seen the disaster of heroin. Yeah. Up close and personal. Not me personally.
Speaker: Because I have a real aversion to that. I don't want to be around it. I don't want to play with people that do it. I've seen the destruction it causes. And unfortunately, I've lost friends to it. And that is one thing I am adamant about. I just don't want to, I don't want to hear about it. I don't want to be around it. And I can't, I don't want to play. I don't want to perform with people. I just don't, I've seen too much of it.
Speaker: I'm with you there, brother. I'm right with you there. So what did you do after the music business? Did you go and get another profession? You said you were a businessman. Did you get into another line of work to sort of pay the bills and have a life or did you carry on with music? Well, after I broke up the band, I moved to Los Angeles in, I think, 1983.
Speaker: And I got married, which was strange for me. I'd been on the road my whole life. I'd been on tour or in the studio my whole life. And I certainly hadn't planned on getting married. I went to LA to pursue my songwriting. I had some contacts out there. And so basically I was completely out of the music business for about 10 years.
Speaker: I was doing some other things and running another business and luckily I have a background in business and civil law and sales, all self -taught. I didn't go to school for any of this. So I basically took a long pause and I became a husband. I was doing a few sessions and I was doing a few gigs and I did the soundtrack to a movie called Taxi to LA.
Speaker: But for the most part, I was really out of it. I was really out of it. And then about in the mid 90s, I was going through a divorce and there was a huge earthquake in Los Angeles where I was living in Northridge and I was made homeless in about 30 seconds. The whole building collapsed on my head. So at that point, I was living in my car with my dog and my guitar and whatever clothes I had on my back.
Speaker: I was completely, completely at square one again. So I decided because during my time in LA, there had been the OJ Simpson trial. After that, there were the riots, which were, you know, that was a pretty hairy time. There were the brush fires. There was the earthquake. And I thought, you know what?
Speaker: I don't want to be here for the next earthquake because I don't know if you've ever been through one, Dan, but this changed my life completely. I lost everything that I owned. You're talking about the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco. Was that the one or was it? It was the Northridge in 94 on Martin Luther King Day. 30 people were killed. It was like $8 billion worth of damage. Wow.
Speaker: I had no water, no running water, no electricity. I had no bathroom. I couldn't brush my teeth. So I basically was living in my car for about a month while I made other plans. And believe me, I hustled as best I could. And eventually I was able to put some funds together and buy a ticket. And at the time my mom was fairly old and
Speaker: She was in failing health and she lived in Montreal. So I came back to Montreal to take care of her, really. Okay. Well, good for you for doing that. And so then you re -established your life in Montreal. Is that where you are now? Yes, I'm in Montreal for the last 10 years. I've played strictly as a solo. I voice guitar and piano. I haven't had a band for years. I love a band and I miss a band, but there were things about it I don't miss. Um, I like to be able to,
Speaker: get to the gig, I plug in my guitar, I plug in my mic, and I start. I don't have to ask, do you know this song? You don't know it in this key. You don't know the ending. You need to rehearse it. I don't have time for any of that crap. I like to play with people like, and I know a handful of musicians, where I say so -and -so, let's play this song. And we do.
Speaker: I say let's play I Feel Good by James Brown in the original key. One, two, three, four. And we do. There's a certain wealth of experience after you've done enough gigs and enough different types of repertoire.
Speaker: there are certain musicians you just click with because you just say, this song in this key, let's go. And they don't say, well, I need to rehearse it. How are we gonna end it? I don't really know it. And I say, look, man, we're talking about Johnny Be Good, okay? If you need to rehearse it, I don't need to play with you.
Speaker: Well, it's good that you. Yeah, exactly. Go over the harmonies and John and be good. That was a standard joke that we had all the time. And we were talking about rehearsing. We've got to rehearse the harmonies in John and John. Yeah, right. Exactly. Wink at each other. So it's good to hear that you're still singing and playing. And are you recording at all? What are you doing now? Have you got any aspirations or plans to do any recording or anything like that? Well, actually, as far as Hellfield, the original bass player, James Larson, and the guitarist from the final version, Paul Royce,
Speaker: We are recording a new Hellfield album now over the internet, obviously, during this COVID. And we have about six songs finished. I just heard a couple the other day. And we are rerecording some stuff from an album we did in 1980 that was never released. We financed it. And then everything really just basically collapsed around that time. And instead of digitize that album,
Speaker: We've decided to simply rerecord those songs. Nice. And they're extremely heavy, I must say. They're really, really heavy stuff. Very ambient. So that's on the one front, myself and Jamie and Paul over the course of time. We hope to have it maybe released by next Christmas, possibly a tour next year. We're hopeful.
Speaker: We've been working on that and apparently there's quite a bit of interest and I'm really glad to see that. So that's one project. I'm also, although I haven't done a gig for about 15 months, usually I am booked about 360 days a year as a solo. I do a show almost every single day of the year. Wow. Holy cow. Sometimes two shows a day.
Speaker: Well, that's great as a solo act. So I haven't played, I haven't done a gig for about 15, nearly 16 months now, but what I've been doing in the meantime, I, I have a casting agent and I've done some voiceover work. And right now I'm being considered for a couple of roles in, in a few small movies for my casting agent. Oh, wow. And I also, like yourself, I'm an impressionist. Yeah.
Speaker: and I do lots of different voices. And I also do musical impressions, Tom Jones, Johnny Cash, James Brown, quite a few of them, Engelberg, Sinatra. And the more, you know, the larger your skillset, the more opportunities might come your way.
Speaker: Yeah, well, no, that's really good. I really appreciate you sharing that and you're really a person of substance. It's really cool. I'm actually quite happy that I was able to talk to you today and sort of learn that about you because, you know, I listen to the tunes and they sound good and stuff. And of course, you're always fighting apathy out there or people, they kind of don't know who you are.
Speaker: don't know what you've done and stuff. And then to actually be able to sit down and say, you know, these are all the different things I do. And then you see some real substance there and somebody who's committed to the music and does what he loves and it comes across. And that really came across in what you shared with me today. This is great, really good. Well, thank you very much. When it's your life, it's your life. You don't realize you have such tunnel vision because if you're a creative person, you're
Speaker: thinking about a song or a lyric or a chord progression or you're playing your guitar. And it's hard or you don't usually think about the guy that's waiting for the bus at seven o 'clock in the morning in a blizzard going to his office job. We're in this tunnel vision syndrome. We have such different lives, such different experiences. The guy that works in the office probably doesn't get to travel as much as a musician does.
Speaker: He probably hasn't ever set foot in a recording studio. So they don't travel as much. They're not always on the road. They have some sense of normality. They have a family, maybe they have a home. Yeah. So that's a good point because touring is an alternate reality in itself. Well, you can get lost. You can get lost out there, man. Yeah. You can get lost out there. And like you said earlier,
Speaker: You're only on stage for like an hour and a half. It's those other 20, 21 hours of the day where you have to force the band to stay sober. That's the challenge.
Speaker: Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a real lifestyle challenge. That's why I just didn't like touring. That's why I came back to Vancouver and I've made a living for over 40 years in the music business. So I'm thankful, but I had to do it a different way. I just couldn't do the touring. It just, it was just depressing to me. It was just too much away and too much of that, what you're talking about. Well, it would, it would kill you. It would have for me for sure. I would have, uh, you know, the ones and I, I've been up close with guns and roses and.
Speaker: When I was in LA, just by circumstance, we happened to be rehearsing next door to each other in a rehearsal room. And these guys were literally starving. I kid you not. They were starving. They were living in a rehearsal studio. No bathroom, no shower. They were existing on fast food. This was before they were famous. They were just recording the demo for Appetite.
Speaker: And I was lucky enough to be one of the first people to hear it. And I thought, Oh my God, man, this is like, this is the heaviest thing I've heard it like, this is going to be huge. If, if the record company is willing to go with such an aggressive in your face sound, I had my doubts about that. Luckily they had a Mike clink who was very instrumental in signing them. And he really believed my point of this story is when I knew them.
Speaker: They had Steve in the band at the time, Steve Adler. He certainly was sober. And Duff, who was my best friend, in fact, Duff was best man at my wedding, he was sober and Slash was sober and Izzy was sober. And then within literally six months after Appetite was released, suddenly they were the biggest band in the world. They absolutely booted the front door in and said, we're here.
Speaker: Now, the sad side of that is with fame and with riches came lots of bad people around the band. And you know the people I meet. They seem to be there at the parties drinking the champagne. No one's quite sure who they are. I call them the Klingons.
Speaker: Well, it's funny because I read Slash's book, right? And it's the heroin diaries, basically. I mean, it was just brutal. He, he wrecked his body. He, I think he even has a heart monitor in now. He just, he does. And I spoke to, uh, to Duff recently. And now he's, he is clean and sober because he has to be, he went to his doctor and the doctor said, listen, Duff, if you don't stop drinking today, you're going to die. Yeah. You're simply going to die.
Speaker: And the last time I saw Duff and Slash, they were in Montreal with Velvet Revolver, and they were both absolutely clean and sober. In fact, they didn't even share a dressing room with Scott Wieland, who was their lead singer. And of course, two months later, Scott OD'd on the bus.
Speaker: Yeah, he's gone. But I know I'm really happy to hear that. I like to hear the victories. I like to hear the nice stories of people being clean and sober because those guys are great musicians and they've made their mark. But it only matters if you have a life that's worth living and you're clean and sober. And so I'm thanks for sharing that because that really makes me happy. It was quite the insight because it's one of those things where be careful what you wish for. Yeah. And with the rate of speed, Dan,
Speaker: I'm talking about within the course of a six month period, they went from starving to opening for the Rolling Stones at the Coliseum in Los Angeles. Yeah. Within six months. Now that can really damage your head, especially if you're an ego centric rock star. Yeah. No doubt. And young and stupid too. And I won't mention any names, but there was one person in that band in particular.
Speaker: that was particularly obnoxious. Yeah. And I think you can do the math on that one. Yeah. Well, yeah. And, and actually slashing his book talks quite a bit about, uh, the different band members and all the problems they had. And of course with, uh, you know, Axel's got, he's a, a phenomenon unto himself. So, uh, that kind of speaks for itself as well. So it happens, it happens, but it's, it, you know, younger bands should listen and look and maybe learn from something like that.
Speaker: You can go back to the stones. You know, Keith Richards was nearly dead. In fact, he should have been dead. Same with Eric Clapton. They were both junkies, man. I read both their books too, and it's heroin diaries again. It's heroin. It's heroin. And thank God, thank God when I see Keith Richards now, he's sober. He's smiling and he's still alive. Thank God. I mean, I wish the same would have happened to Keith Moon. Yeah. John Bonham.
Speaker: Yeah, you're right. If they could have got through those years and got a perspective looking back, they would have probably been, you know, nice older gentlemen that were sober and that would be your hope, right? They'd still be alive. Yeah. They'd still be alive. I mean, Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Dan, imagine what Hendrix would have done in his lifetime.
Speaker: or Brian Jones, who was an absolute genius, an absolute genius. And the road of rock and roll is paved on 4G with so many of these casualties. And I'm lucky, and I guess you're lucky, because there's something in us that says, yes, I'm a musician. Yes, I'm a long hair. Yes, I'm on the road. Yes, I do this and that. Yes, I'm a nonconformist. But when it comes to heroin,
Speaker: I'm just don't want to be around it. I don't want to know. I've just seen the damage it causes. Well, yeah, that's a, that's a good point. And I've made that point before, but I've been to the edge, but I looked over the edge. I didn't jump. I didn't jump in and I just knew that it wouldn't end well. And I wasn't, I didn't want to do that anyways. That wouldn't have been me, but those guys get so much. So, so fast. And like you said, with guns and roses, I mean,
Speaker: That's one of the largest selling debut albums of all time I mean, they literally kicked the front door in the on the music business like we're here one day You don't know who Guns N' Roses is the next day. They're a household word. Yeah, and you know, it's much too fast It's every kid's dream if you think about it. Yeah, it's every kid's dream. Okay I've got this little rock and roll band in LA and we're starving with all the other rock and roll bands because of course around then it was poison and And all the motley crew they were all playing the strip
Speaker: They were playing gazaris and the troubadour and the rainbow room. And I used to hang out at all those places. And everyone I would hang out with, now they're all famous. It was poison, it was slash. But in those days, we were just kids on the strip, you know? Or you go to Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard and there were just thousands and thousands of guys, guitarists. And the other thing about LA is, when a band like, for example, Ozzy needs a drummer,
Speaker: He just puts an ad in the local paper and you've got a hundred drummers lined up at the rehearsal studio. Wow. And probably they're all pretty good too. Oh yeah. And they've all gotten, they've all got massive kits of drums or if you're a guitarist, you got massive stacks of Marshalls. It's, it's unbelievable. So the talent pool is certainly there, but you know, there were great musicians all over the world, I believe. And now with the, with the technology, what, what you see people doing,
Speaker: We don't necessarily have to all be together in the studio. Personally, I prefer to record that way. But there are ways around it now, especially with COVID, where you have to find other ways to make music, to perform music, and maybe even to make some money playing your music. This is going to be the challenge for the future.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. And I think the overriding point to what you're saying jumps out at me is that, you know, when you look at the past, like the Stephen Stills and the David Crosby's and all those guys, like there was a certain lifestyle you kind of had to either be involved in or accept. If you wanted to be around this guy, like John Phillips and those guys and the mamas and the papas, like I just couldn't be around people like that. I just wasn't interested in that lifestyle, but you couldn't do that music. I mean, Clapton was on, was snorting heroin every day for years, right?
Speaker: If you didn't want to be around that, you couldn't participate where nowadays you could, you can separate yourself from that and still enjoy the music a bit more. Right. Well, nowadays there's no, there's no stigma to being sober. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I, I, I'm fairly sober. I, you know, I don't use any heavy drugs and I don't really drink alcohol. And, uh, and in fact, through this COVID thing, I've really changed my diet and,
Speaker: what I put into my body and exercise and breathing exercise and things I've never done before. And I'm, you know, thank God I'm in quite good shape for no man. But there's no harm. There's no stigma in being sober. Yeah.
Speaker: Well, there you go. And that, that's a good point because, uh, you know, when I read, uh, for example, the Allman brothers book, when they recorded, when they recorded, um, Layla, so Clapton came down and then Dwayne Allman played the slide on that, right? That there was heroin and Coke and anything you wanted. And then one of the guys had made the comment that heroin was the key that unlocked the door to where all the good music was. And I thought, well, that's wrong. That has to be wrong. I don't believe that. No, you can ask Charlie Parker. You can ask Charlie Parker.
Speaker: But unfortunately, you can't ask him because he's dead. Yeah, I know. You can ask Coltrane. You can ask Coltrane about it. But you can't because he's dead. So personally, I never believe that. I've played with people. And personally, myself, I never go on stage drunk. I can't. I don't. That's just my own personal thing. But I know specifically players who believe they play better when they're drunk. And I always tell them, just tape the set.
Speaker: and listen to the set and you'd be amazed how sloppy you are or how much you're overplaying and I never believe I don't believe this big myth that you play better on heroin or acid or whatever it is I just don't believe it I really don't because when you were young when you started in this business when you were writing your first songs when you were flowering in your creativity you weren't a junkie then
Speaker: Yeah, no, that's right. I think you're right. It's a big lie. But the thing is, you know, then again, you talk about the lifestyle. Like if I if I was on that session in Leila and stuff, I just wouldn't stay there. I've been in the studios where you go into the bathroom and there's lines of coke on the on the counter and stuff. I'm just not into it. I just don't stay around that environment. I'm not into it. Right. Well, again, not judging them, but I'm just not into it. Well, that again, it's a personal decision. In the old days, it was kind of assumed that if you were a drummer in a rock and roll band, you had to be some stone of freak.
Speaker: And I can see why people would have that idea. But putting it into context, if you look at, let's just say, all the bands that played at Woodstock, The Who, Sly, Santana, every band that you can think of that played Joe Cocker, you will find that putting it into context of 1968, everyone was on drugs.
Speaker: Almost everyone that played it. I mean, Foger claims that he wasn't, but possibly because he was never a drug guy. Yeah, I believe that. I believe that. But I mean, Joe Cocker, if you listen to Santana, if you listen to Santana talk about when he played at Woodstock, he'd done acid just before he went on stage. And he thought his guitar was a snake. Wow.
Speaker: And that's one reason why I've never ever been on stage in that type of altered state of consciousness, because I have to be in somewhat control. Yeah, I couldn't imagine. I couldn't. That would just freak me out. It would just freak me out.
Speaker: Well, no, I appreciate you share that we went down a bit of a buddy trail there, but it's an important one because that, that was the part of that culture back then. And I've thought to myself often that a lot of the music that we listened to, you know, a lot of it was drug fueled music. I mean, you have to be honest about it, right? You know, well, purple haze. So, uh, so that's the way it goes. But, but I really appreciate you taking the time. We kind of went over here, but it's such an interesting conversation. I was more than happy to do that. And I really appreciate you taking the time as well. Thank you so much.
Speaker: It was really nice to speak with you. I really liked your interview with Ian Thomas, by the way. Oh, I appreciate that. And Tobias also. Yeah, those guys had a lot to say, a lot of substantial stuff. And again, with the podcast, I'm trying to talk about different things and more substantive sort of inside the music business things that I think are more interesting for people. It's funny you should say that because starting next week, I'm going to be hosting a new show called Inside the Music.
Speaker: Oh, nice. It's going to be on the Vibe Network, and I'll be posting information about that. If you need to know any info, just go to healthy old capital H band, small B Canada, large C. Yeah. And all of our info is there. And again, as of next week, I will be doing a show called Inside the Music with the DJB on the Vibe Network. So, you know, stay tuned for that. And I must tell you, it's been a real
Speaker: Pleasure speaking with you because we have a common background. Yeah, I appreciate that. You're a musician. You've been on the road. You understand the business from all facets of it. And it's really nice to speak with someone that has that common understanding.
Speaker: Yeah, and I appreciate that as well. And for me, like I said, I came back to Vancouver. So I'm sort of slow and steady wins the race. I never had a big hit song. I never had a big touring recording act and stuff. But for me, I was able to make a living and keep my life very, very sane and very controlled. And so I'm very thankful for that. But I still, I didn't give up the music because I love music and I always wanted to be that. So I found a different way. Like my friend once said to me, there's different ways to skin a cat and you figured out a way to do it.
Speaker: I'm a very thankful person for that. That's fantastic. I'm so glad to hear it. It gives me hope. Well, there you go.
Speaker: Many thanks to Mitchell Field for being part of the Liner Notes podcast, and sharing some insights from his life in the music business. And more information is available at, I got some information from CanadianBands .com Hellfield. And then as he had pointed out the Facebook page, Hellfield Band, you can find that if you just do a quick search. And we hope you enjoyed the podcast and invite you to subscribe to it and share it on social media so others can enjoy it as well. You can also become a member if you'd like notifications and other inside information and perks. We'd love to have you on board.
Speaker: And please listen to Dusty Discs Radio as well, Tuesdays and Thursdays to hear the music from the Canadian artists you are hearing on this show. So until next time, I'm Dan Hare.
