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Young Justice Season 4 Ep 17 Leviathan Wakes
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Andrew and J Scotty are back to go deep and dive into their thoughts and reactions to the final episode of Young Justice Phantoms' Atlantean arc, Episode 17: Leviathan Wakes!
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Transcript
00:00:00
Speaker
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Atlantean Arc Overview
00:00:30
Speaker
On another exciting entry of Animation Deliberation, we have experienced both the low tides and the high tides of the Atlantean Arc of Young Justice Season 4, aka Phantoms. We are going to be discussing that final episode of that arc, Episode 17, appropriately titled Leviathan Awakens. We will get right into that after some ads. We have no say over whatsoever.
00:00:52
Speaker
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Podcast Introduction: Animation Deliberation
00:01:31
Speaker
Sing along if you know the words. A one, two, three, it's time for animation, deliberation, a conversation and a celebration of a favorite action animated series. Yeah. Yeah.
Hosts' Introduction and Aquaman Crew
00:01:46
Speaker
All right, folks. Welcome back to Animation Deliberation, the podcast that takes action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. I am your host, Jay Scottie St. Clair, and I am joined by the man on the vocals there, Mr. Andrew Rogers. Welcome back, sir. How are you? I am fantastic just as all of this Aquaman crew is, you know, just swimming through life.
00:02:13
Speaker
Well said, well said. Yeah, I find myself this week, it's a little warm here in the Bay Area, warmer than we're accustomed to. So it's definitely one of those weeks where I wish I could be spending the majority of my time in the water. It'd be nice if I had a set of gills and could enjoy the nice cool depths.
Episode 17 Review: Strengths and Highlights
00:02:31
Speaker
But I'm not in the depths when it comes to my reception for this episode. So with that in mind, let's bring back one of my favorite segments.
00:02:41
Speaker
Andrew, on a scale from, yeah, to, yeah. How do you feel about episode 17, Leviathan Awakes? You know, I think I'm going to stick right in the middle here and just give it a yeah. Okay. Interesting. Interesting. I'm not too high. I'm not too low. It was a really good episode. I just don't know if it was actually the best of the four or my favorite of the four necessarily. Okay.
00:03:10
Speaker
Yeah, I think it was good. But I want to know what your thoughts are. You said you weren't in the depths. Where would you? Yeah, this guy. I've got a resounding yeah for this for this week. I think this was one of my favorite episodes of the season. It might be one of my favorite episodes of Young Justice period without getting super spoiler about it. I just really appreciated how they I appreciate the storytelling behind it and the way they chose to show us the scenes and the order that they did.
00:03:39
Speaker
and really just give us solid answers to all these questions for this arc and not deviate away from that too much. In the previous episodes, we kind of had a lot going on between the different players and these various stories, but I felt like we spent large portions of time with certain characters in certain scenes until those came to their proper fruition and it just really made it an impactful episode for me.
Episode's Impact on Season
00:04:06
Speaker
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I feel like not only was it an impactable episode for this arc, it felt really impactable for the season as a whole. In that first half, they were very distinct arcs. It didn't feel like they were going to have too much of a ripple. This feels really important for the remainder of what's going to happen for this last bit of Young Justice.
00:04:26
Speaker
Oh, certainly. Yeah, wholeheartedly agree with that.
Significance of Oren: Aquaman's Atlantean Name
00:04:29
Speaker
Now, before we get into the nitty gritty of the episode, speaking of answers to questions, one of the questions we had on our previous recording was this new title for our Arthur Curry Aquaman being referred to as Onyx Oren.
00:04:45
Speaker
And while this episode did give us a definitive answer for that, I do want to give credit to one of our longtime listeners and a name most people will probably recognize at this point. But Mr. TJ Stafford actually provided us that answer in the form of some feedback, which you have queued up, Andrew, correct? That is correct from the lovely TJ Stafford. He wrote this in, it was Thursday, March 31st, so last Thursday, I believe.
00:05:13
Speaker
after we had done our recording and stuff to kind of give more answers to the question we had, he said, it has always been my understanding that Oren is Aquaman's Atlantean name, whereas Arthur Curry is his surface name. He goes by both names, depending on where he is and who he's interacting with. As for Anax, just based on the context clues, I'm guessing it is Atlantean word for king or sire. It seems like a more important title that he actually carries. Right, right. Yeah, I mean, he's
00:05:42
Speaker
not wrong as we have found out in this episode.
00:05:45
Speaker
Correct. Yeah. I don't know if we got the official confirmation that Warren is his Atlantean name, but it seems to make all the sense in the world. I doubt it's anything other than that. But then, yeah, it seems like Onyx is in particularly the high king of Atlantis. So we had that title get exchanged a few times within this episode to get that confirmation. But I guess the final thing I want to cover before we really get spoilery on the episode is that Zuhair is still missing
Zuhair's Absence and Naboo's Avatar
00:06:12
Speaker
this week. We are definitely missing him.
00:06:14
Speaker
You know, it was his turn to take up the helmet of fate and serve as Naboo's avatar. So he is not with us this week, but hopefully he can rejoin us soon. It is of the highest honor that he doesn't get to be here just for that. I must say I'm a little jealous as much as it seems like there's a lot of pressure on him with that. Well, if he's lucky, he gets to spend a little time with Zatanna.
00:06:35
Speaker
That's probably why he said yes in the first place. Correct, correct. All right.
Storytelling and Character Development
00:06:43
Speaker
So yeah, as I kind of mentioned, I really felt like this was one of the most solid episodes of Young Justice we've gotten, maybe ever, but in a really long time for me. And I really appreciate how we just spent the majority of the episode under the sea with the Atlanteans and just kind of picked up right where we left off.
00:07:05
Speaker
We did open the episode with the cloned Orm kind of being questioned or almost kind of consoled by his brother, Oren and McGann in her lovely mermaid form. I just got to say the compassion that they've shown for this cloned Orm is just so in keeping with the series.
00:07:29
Speaker
Just the continuity, the fact that they've dealt with clones in the past, like the various iterations of Roy Harper and whatnot, and they realize that
00:07:37
Speaker
This clone is a unique individual. And though he has had his memories tampered with and whatnot, they understand that his crimes are not his own. And just the way they broach that subject and tell him, look, when you're ready to open up your mind and actually get these answers and face the truth, we're here for you. And it's just like, to me, that's what makes our heroes the heroes that they are, is that empathy and that compassion for someone who has nothing but disdain and animosity for them.
Compassion in the Series: Focus on Orm
00:08:05
Speaker
Yeah, you bring up a really good point there because you said everything I would have said in that moment that they're very, very compassionate. And the whole time I was surprised by it, actually. But knowing that cloning is commonplace in this world, it does make some sense, you know, they have this experience, they know not to hold it against him. And
00:08:25
Speaker
I loved that he was just as amazed as audience members got to be like, what do you mean you're letting me free? My brother did or not my brother, my previous clone self did all these terrible things to you and your people. And to have King Oren say, no, that's not you.
00:08:41
Speaker
that was someone prior to you, you are free to go, the slate is clean. And then on top of that, to want to give this person a chance to possibly be his brother or be even just a better version. I kind of hope this character sticks around and that when we get more of Atlantis in the future, we see a reformed ocean master that is a totally different person that is
Aquaman Titles and Royal Lineage
00:09:06
Speaker
by
00:09:07
Speaker
previous king side is he still the king if well she's the king I I don't know how to refer to him at this point because they did a really good job of keeping the title the same whether it was male or female which I really liked but also now how do you refer to previous king or yeah right
00:09:29
Speaker
I don't know if it works like presidents in the United States. He's the honorable Orin or what have you, but. We do also get to go back to calling him Aquaman. True. True. Yeah. And by the end of the episode, we had three Aquaman. That jab made me so happy. They're like, well, we got four Green Lantern. We have two Flash. At this point, we've had two Kid Flash. What's three Aquaman?
00:09:55
Speaker
You know, not everyone can be Batman's team that just decides we're all going to pick different birds. Right, right, right. Yeah, that was a totally great acknowledgement to the wider DC universe how these titles, these legacy titles just really do get thrown around quite a bit.
00:10:14
Speaker
To my knowledge, I'm not as versed in the comic books as I would like to be, but I don't know if Ligon actually became Aquaman in the comics. But if he did, it's great homage there. If not, it's just great growth and development for the character because he was not my favorite character in season
Ligon's Character Growth and Past Grudges
00:10:34
Speaker
two. He just kind of seemed like a romantic foil. I thought we got great growth and development for Ligon coming off of season two.
00:10:43
Speaker
I spoke how we pretty much picked up where we left off with the Clone Dorm, but the same can be said for our quartet of Atlantean heroes that were exploring the Atlantean ruins there in search of Varian's crown. They always have those little location and date placards that I never do a very good job of paying attention to. The real revelation to me for how much time had passed was the scruff
00:11:05
Speaker
on both wind and Aquaman, Calderon. But Ligon starts to complain about how long it's taking, and he's concerned for his newborn child that could be due any day or may have already been born. He gets chastised by Aquaman, and then wind kind of comes alongside him and says, don't take it too personally.
00:11:26
Speaker
He's got a lot going on and he still hasn't really had a chance to mourn for Connor. And that's where Ligon really got to have a great moment for growth for me where he's like, you know,
00:11:37
Speaker
I never really liked Connor. I still kind of had grudges against him. And, you know, he was involved in that romantic triangle in season two. But to acknowledge, you know, his shortcomings there and that he wish he could have made amends, I thought did a lot for the character of Ligon. Oh, yeah. He did so many things to redeem himself. And I kind of was hoping that would be the case when we found out he was in a new, very loving relationship and was married to the others in Atlantis. I was hoping for some growth.
00:12:05
Speaker
And it was just a really great way to put it together of he didn't paint it back on Calder. He said, you know, I get where he's coming from. I have these feelings and it was nice. And also is the first of kind of many times in this episode.
00:12:20
Speaker
You and I were really right last week in what we talked about out of those first three in what we hope to see coming in how things were working. And this was one of them that we got to move through a little bit of Calder's grief. And it was the first point I thought to myself, OK, I hope this will be his moment to step back if they're all talking about it at this length. I really hope this is his moment. So it was nice to get that come full circle
00:12:46
Speaker
throughout this episode, it wasn't just a throwaway line of, oh, he's busy. No, this is a meaningful, he knows he's busy, he's just burying it deep down, and it's not gonna blow up because he's taking care of himself and those around him.
00:13:02
Speaker
Yeah, and I'm really happy to see it go that way because you know, Calder has has gone through so much and suffered so much but it's just great to have this character that is such a stalwart composed character that even though you know he was being criticized for chastising like I never thought you know his chastising was all that unjustified like
00:13:21
Speaker
Lagann did not have to volunteer for that mission. And yeah, it's really nice to see him be able to take the break that everyone's encouraging him to take without actually breaking. So as much as we thought we were going to have three Aquaman, it seems like there's only going to be two Aquaman, at least for the time being. But I'm sure
00:13:39
Speaker
It's only a matter of time before Calderon comes back because it seems like he's doing everything that he should be doing. We have the episode close with him attending therapy. I believe it was Black Canary there that was standing with him at the memorial, right? Yes. I don't think she ever said anything, but that was her usual look. I think it had the blonde hair like she has, and I can't imagine them talking to anyone else.
00:14:03
Speaker
in terms of counsel like that. Sure. And I don't even necessarily know if he is putting up the mantle of Aquaman so much as just taking a step back from the league and saying, I know my place, I know my time, because it's one of the cool things they have enough members in the league at this point, that they don't all have to be fully active all the time. True. And then on top of that, you have the outsiders on top of that, you have the team. And on top of that, you have the independent heroes
00:14:30
Speaker
like I believe Dick Grayson at this point is not a part of anything. He's just there. Unless he rejoined the league or the team after last season. I can't remember. But either way, there's so many heroes out there that he probably feels like he can take the time off, which is really nice coming out of all of this.
Animation Style and Underwater Creatures
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, he totally deserves it.
00:14:53
Speaker
Yeah, before we pivot away from this, the caverns that they had going on there. Yeah, sure. I wanted to talk a little bit about the animation decisions that they made in this episode. Oh, we are totally on the same page. I'm glad what you got. Are you in a positive or a negative with the decisions made?
00:15:11
Speaker
I was going to focus on positives. I am also in the positive. It took me aback at first. What we are referring to, I'm guessing, is the same, but for everyone out there listening. The fish in the entirety of that underwater cavern
00:15:28
Speaker
And the large crab and large leviathan creature at the end, they were all done in a very specific painterly style. Correct. Wherein they did not move much at all outside of actually shifting almost as though they had a cutout of the crab and just moving it up and down. Right.
00:15:48
Speaker
I mean, it's a great thing because it's saving these animators heavy work in having to throw all of this pencil mileage down on the paper. I actually found out, I listened to an interview, the final season of Attack on Titan, they have all of the Titans as CG characters. The reason they did that is to save the budget because they didn't want to have to hand animate all of these Titans all over the screen all the time. And instead they were able to put that time and money into the characters.
00:16:15
Speaker
If not, they wouldn't have had the money. I think this is an ingenious way to do the same thing of save the money to animate these amazing character moments that we've had. But instead just do these monstrous creatures as these simplified things. And the reason I started to love it, you know, it took me a minute to adjust. It reminded me of watching a Scooby Doo.
00:16:36
Speaker
cartoon back in the day. The way that they always have those backgrounds that are fully painted and you knew what door was going to open because that was the only part that the hand drew out. And they had all these moments that it just harkened back to the cartoons of old and kind of made me feel at home. But at no point were the drawings bad. They were beautifully done. And I just wanted to call attention to it was a definitely a conscious decision on their part. But I think they used it in a beautiful way that it didn't take too much away from any of the scenes.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, very well said, and I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't really make the connections to Scooby-Doo in old school animation, but I'm so glad you did. But yeah, I'm exactly on the same page to you. It really stood out to me the way they decided to animate both the crab and the leviathan shark-like creature there. But my big takeaway is that that painterly style that they were done in,
00:17:28
Speaker
The backgrounds often have so much more detail than our characters themselves. Our characters are a little more simplified. They're excellently drawn with a lot of detail themselves and capable of a lot of action. But doing those monsters in that kind of like background style, like I thought really helped sell on the scale.
00:17:47
Speaker
of them, that they were almost like these mountainous types of creatures that were almost indistinguishable from these large cavernous walls and whatnot. And in addition to just the level of detail there, I really liked the bioluminescence and the bioelectricity, the way it was animated in this episode. Just spending so much time in the dark, I felt
00:18:08
Speaker
it looks great on the characters themselves when they were lighting up on the various you know, I'm still not clear if they're tattoos or what they are that light up when they use magic. I believe we confirmed early on they were tattoos but I got wrong. Okay. Yeah. But no, you were totally correct. It was it was also well done that
00:18:29
Speaker
I wasn't scared of any of it. Like this show knew what they were doing. They did it well as much as it, like I said, it took me aback. Once I got used to it and realized why they were doing it, you're totally right. It made them seem larger than life because the minute they got close to the Leviathan and then you suddenly had our characters for scale, you realized exactly how big it was supposed to be. And I do wonder if they had tried to do it in the regular animation, if it would have sold it quite as well.
00:18:57
Speaker
Yeah, that's a good thought. I don't think so. I really think it worked on all fronts and I'm glad they chose to go that direction for all the reasons we brought up in addition to what you mentioned about saving the budget because it seems like it's really been invested in the area that it needs to be and whether or not it's compensating the animators, compensating the voice actors and the writers. And speaking of writers, lest I forget, you pointed out a very interesting aspect about the writer of this episode.
Kari Payton as Writer: Episode Impact
00:19:28
Speaker
Yeah, so while I was kind of getting ready with all of our information, it turns out that Kari Payton, the voice of Calderon himself, was the writer credit for this episode. And I actually did a little digging quick. This is his first ever writing credit on Young Justice. So I don't know if he's written anything outside of this, but this is the first time he's gotten the chance on Young Justice. And I think he did a great job personally.
00:19:52
Speaker
Yeah, I give him major kudos. Again, this is one of my favorite episodes of Young Justice, period. So to know that it's someone that's been with the series from the very beginning, always delivering and giving these captivating performances, it shows just what a well-rounded, creative person he is. And it's just awesome that they have that level of talent attached to the show.
00:20:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think he will probably go down in history as one of the great comic performers of the time. He has amazing voice acting, but it feels like he cares about Aquaman or Calder Aquaman in the same way that we talk about the great
00:20:34
Speaker
comic actors of our time. Hugh Jackman loved Wolverine. Chris Hemsworth loves Thor. I have to wonder, does he really care about Aquaman in that same capacity? Because I've seen a couple of interviews about this show with him, and he's just always over the moon with whatever they have going on.
00:20:53
Speaker
I think it's a great thing to have him even further in and let him write what was going to happen with this character because it felt natural. Oh, totally, totally. I have to imagine he has that same level of care and passion for the character because the voice acting across the board for the show is really solid and really impressive, but he just continues to be a standout. I don't know if many people really embody a role the same way that he does. Oh, for sure.
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah. Spinning back to, you know, the ongoings in Atlantis or Poseidonus, what have
Orm's Clone Twist in Plot
00:21:27
Speaker
you. Actually, I guess we spent most of the episode in Zebul in particular here because of the rebellion that was taking place in the wake of our puppet Aryan as the savior of Atlantis. We did get confirmation of a lot of the speculation that we had in our previous recording. And I think even TJ with some of his previous feedback mentioned the fact that, you know, this Aryan might be a clone, but
00:21:50
Speaker
I did not anticipate having the actual original Orm be the one that was in control of him. And it just kind of threw me for a loop. I just, I couldn't help but kind of have a little bit of a laugh when I imagined like, what happened after he was beheaded by Lady Shiva? Did she like take his head and put it in one of those jars like a la Futurama until they could transfer his brain or his memories? Well, forgive me for forgetting the character's name.
00:22:17
Speaker
What is the one telepath that has his exposed brain? Oh, it's Simon with a PS. Not Simon. Simon's the gorilla, I believe. No, no, no. The gorilla is like something beast, like beast of man or man beast or something like that.
00:22:34
Speaker
Hating that I can't recall that one off the top of my head, but I'm fairly certain Simon is the one that McGahn has gone up against like numerous times with the exposed brain. Yes, that is Simon. Okay. I had them backwards. No, no worries. It might be the ultra humanoid. Human. Oh, that's, that's, I think it's correct. Yeah. So anyhow, he had a brain in a jar.
00:22:57
Speaker
when they actually let him out and they first said release Ocean Master and that was kind of our confirmation that this is Ocean Master coming out looking like Arian. He literally had a box with a brain in it. So I have to wonder if he was able to telepathically do some link to transfer it into the body. But I do have this question
00:23:19
Speaker
Was it planned? Did Orm know that he was going to die at the hands of Lady Shiva or was he blindsided and then they just threw his head in another body and trusted that it was Vandal Savage's grand plan the whole time? My takeaway, and this is just speculation, I think those are great questions, but I would lean towards the fact that he did not know that it was going to happen, that he fell out of the graces of the light and that was his punishment and
00:23:49
Speaker
his new founds loyalty is really born out of the fact that wanting to get back in those good graces and you know,
00:23:57
Speaker
as fully rounded and fleshed out as a lot of these characters are, Ocean Master has never been one of those characters that has a ton going on outside of revenge and wanting to be the king of Atlantis. So with what you mentioned before, hopefully there's a chance for redemption and more ways than one for the new cloned Orem. But yeah, that was my takeaway. I just thought after having been quote unquote killed, it was like this was his second chance and he was
00:24:25
Speaker
going to do it right this time, in terms of the lights' biddings anyway.
00:24:30
Speaker
Yeah, and not to pat myself on the back too much, but this is another moment that I was, I kind of alluded to, we got a bunch of things right last week, that apparently the magic does go with the body, because he said, all right, you're a clone of the Arian's body, so now the magic is with you, you can't use the trident anymore, which I was theorizing was kind of the source of his power. So it's kind of cool to get all of that said in a way that, hey, this makes sense.
00:24:57
Speaker
but also coming back to Project Threnos was important, apparently. And it was Warworld that he was saying all of those things about. So it was just a bunch of nice confirmations on my part. I'm sure no one else really cared as much, but I was like, hey, now I got all this. This is kind of cool.
00:25:15
Speaker
But yeah, Threenos being not a long secret, I'm actually happier about instead of having to wait two seasons to find out what this was. It was nice to know, oh, this is what it was. It was a plan. Can't tell you why it was called Threenos, but it was basically if we can get the ocean under our control, like Vandal Savage said to Dr. Fate at the end, we would have had two thirds of the earth in peace because the ocean makes up two thirds of the earth.
00:25:45
Speaker
I wonder if it was maybe called Project Thrinos because given Vandal Savage's longevity, maybe he was privy to the prophecy that mentioned the three will rise and maybe he was just taking advantage of that. That definitely makes a lot of sense. I just don't know what the
00:26:08
Speaker
the noce being that that feels like there's some Greek or Latin base to it. True. At the end of the word. But it sounds cooler than project three. There is nothing that comes up when I Google this right now. So it's not like a comic callback because a lot of them actually are. Sure. This is not coming up at all from what I can see. So that's kind of cool that they're
00:26:33
Speaker
doing things in a way that may have already happened with comic influence, but nothing is set in stone. They are writing this themselves.
00:26:44
Speaker
That's quite a testament, again, to the creative talent behind the show. They always do a great job of taking the comics as inspiration, but definitely doing their own thing. So whether your exposure to the DC universe is more tertiary or cursory, or you're well-versed in the comics, you're definitely coming away with a lot. Because this show just continues to be the little engine that could. And I'm really optimistic that we'll get that season five, because it's all about the fandom and the fervent
00:27:14
Speaker
fans that are behind this keeping it going. I did want to you know talking about Orm and the in the false area and whatnot not only does it just kind of showcase we knew how cold Vandal Savage was but the fact that he could see his resurrected son that he did so dirty and just continued to use him still and see him as nothing but a tool
00:27:35
Speaker
the demise of Orm when he put on the crown of Arian took me right back to Raiders of the Lost Ark. It was so grotesque. It made me think of the Nazis melting and burning up when they opened the Ark of the Covenant. Spoilers for a movie from the 80s, but if you haven't seen it, shame on you.
00:27:57
Speaker
Yeah, go watch that movie after you're done with the episode of Young Justice in this podcast. You're doing yourself a favor. Yes, totally. Totally. So I just had a thought as you were talking about the fall of the original Arian under Vandal Savage. And this literally just came to mind that body they found trapped under the head of Vandal Savage that was just a skeleton in the bottom.
00:28:23
Speaker
I wonder if that's the original Arian, because I feel like we saw him getting crushed in the rubble and the statues in the earlier episodes when they had the flashback with Clarion. Because now that I'm thinking about it, that's just a shoehorned in, I wonder who that body belongs to. Is that a little nod for us to know that that was actually the body of Arian? Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is. And that's how I took it. I do have very distinct memories of watching that head fall on Arian.
00:28:54
Speaker
And yeah, the line of dialogue right after that, I think it was Delphys who says, yeah, I wonder who, yeah, Dolphin. Yeah, right. Well, I believe your own name is Dolphin before anyone thinks I'm just...
00:29:10
Speaker
not pronouncing it right. No, no, no, no. I remember her name was Dolphin. Yeah, she says, you know, I wonder who he or she was. And then immediately after that, I can't remember, I think it was Calderon says there was there's very, or maybe wind, like one of the two say there is very strong and ancient magic here. So that was just kind of confirmation for me that that was Orin's corpse.
00:29:35
Speaker
Well, that's really cool. I kind of didn't catch that until I was just reflecting back. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, definitely great attention to detail and great continuity for those eagle eyed, eagle eyed viewers. Yeah. So we talked about Dr. Fate. Was that a 13 under the helm? Ooh, you know, it possibly could have been, but I just, I, for whatever reason, I assumed it was Zatanna. I wasn't totally sure because correct me if I'm wrong.
00:30:04
Speaker
And this is when we need Zuhair here to correct this one. Does Zuhair have black hair? I believe so. Cause I believe this Dr. Fate had brown hair, which makes me think that it was 13 then. And she was the first one we saw put on the helm. No, it was, um, Khalid or Khalid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Khalid. I believe he was the first one. So it's at least been a week.
00:30:31
Speaker
I would get, or no, it's been multiple weeks as we know from the timeline. So that would make sense that there's been a rotation of who has the helm up. You are correct. It was, uh, I looked up the voice credits and it was Lauren Tom as 13. So again, that's, that's why we keep you around. You, you've got that, that attention to detail that I lack sometimes. So yeah, great question and great call out. Yeah. All right, cool. Now that was just one of those, I thought it was a nice touch to have someone different under the helm.
00:31:00
Speaker
and make us ask this question every time we see who Dr. Fate is. With Kevin Michael Richardson returning as the voice of Naboo, always a pleasure to hear that resonance that he brings. Aside from that, I just really got some glee out of seeing Vandal Savage have things not go his way. It's like, hey, you might have had an in with the chaos lords for a long time.
00:31:27
Speaker
Naboo may be one of your progeny, but from here on out, the Lords of Order are doing things the way they want to, so. Yeah, I will say, though, there's a bit of a question of it seems like they took their power back. So there's one less power currently on Earth. Now the true crown no longer holds any power in it. I wonder if that's going to have some implication of either the Lords of
00:31:56
Speaker
order going to have less power or are we going to see a new power born at some point? That is a very good question that I had not really considered. I obviously noticed when the power left the helmet and went back to the consolation that is the scales of chaos and order there. But yeah, I imagine given their tendency to
00:32:21
Speaker
You know, they are kind of, they don't actively interfere with the ongoings and just try to keep a balance, but just given how much they have inadvertently or, you know, a few steps removed, been participants and been like grantors of power and whatnot. I imagine that power will have to come back in some fashion, whether or not it's a new item tool weapon or maybe even a new character. That'd be pretty cool.
00:32:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's one of the biggest gaps in my comic or other media knowledge. We don't really see the Lords of Order and Chaos talked about all that much in the younger TV shows that they make in Teen Titans and stuff.
Vandal Savage's Complications and Ambition
00:33:00
Speaker
Sure. So it's just a big gap that I feel like the opportunities are endless. So any character, any weapon, anything that they do is an option. And I'm excited to keep it just in the back of my mind as something possible. Yeah, certainly, certainly.
00:33:17
Speaker
And I guess on the subject of Vandal Savage's schemes not really going the way he wanted to, as much as he was trying to co-op that prophecy for his own purposes, the prophecy ended up coming to fruition in one way or another. We had a lot of the politicking in that first episode back, episode 14, but this is where it really came into a head. We didn't spend a ton of time
00:33:41
Speaker
with the various delegates and whatnot, but the scenes that we got were very impactful. And it was one of those situations where I was like, how did I not see it coming? It just kind of makes sense. You've got King Nereus of Zebul, you've got Arthur Curry, Oren, and who was the other person that was really in her corner, Marist corner?
00:34:00
Speaker
I mean, I think everyone does. It just makes sense. Like, my favorite part of that scene was not away King shark, not wanting anyone. But the minute they were like, Queen Mera is a good fit. How could you disagree? He's like,
00:34:13
Speaker
Yeah, I've always liked her. I think it's true. Like that was cool that he didn't even want to argue and he wanted to argue everything. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It was definitely so in our faces of, hey, there's a prophecy about these three. It could have been any of the three, but they pointed us so far in the direction of it has to be Arian. Right. That I forgot to look at the fact that it could have been any of the three of them is the rightful case.
00:34:39
Speaker
Yeah, and Aquaman's gotten a lot of crap lately with the ongoing jokes that we've mentioned both on Harley Quinn and Peacemaker. But I felt like, again, as much as this episode was great for Calderom, was great for Ligon, was great for Mera.
00:34:56
Speaker
Orrin had some really great moments as well, not only the compassion that he showed for his cloned brother, but the fact that when the delegates came to a vote, he said, I'm not a dictator. I am just a king. I am here for the people. If this is what they want, this is what we're going to do. And then when it came time, I think he was the one that suggested Mary. It was his idea and he's just wholeheartedly willing to relinquish
00:35:20
Speaker
this power. I mean, it is a burden in some ways, it frees him up to be able to be more of a father as well as rejoin his friends at the Justice League. But it's just, yeah, it really did a lot to endear me even more to the character of Oren Arthur Currie Aquaman. Yeah, DC has their hands full.
00:35:40
Speaker
with making better versions of the characters than Young Justice has done. Because this version of Batman, amazing. This version of Superman, without a doubt my favorite that we've seen. And this version of Aquaman also now is without a doubt the best version that they've made. He's compassionate, he's caring, he's intelligent. There's so many things going for these characters because of the fantastic writing. So
00:36:04
Speaker
you'll have to see what they bring to the live action space that can compete with this, but as of right now, this Aquaman is bar none, one of the best that we've seen. Certainly, certainly.
Prophecy of Three Leaders
00:36:15
Speaker
Did you have anything else you want to bring up about the ongoings under the sea in this episode? Because we did spend the majority of the episode under the sea with a few flashes to what was going on with Vandal Savage, and then of course the end scene that I want to discuss in detail.
00:36:34
Speaker
No, I have everything said that I wanted to say. We've hit all the amazing points and all of my little exclamations. Oh, besides I had the random question of what are they eating if they were in that cave for weeks on end? Oh, right. They didn't have any packs with them that I could see. They didn't have any like rations or I guess maybe eating fish, but how many fish could be in this cave?
00:36:59
Speaker
It's a random plot point that I just jotted down because I was like, what? No, they usually explain everything in the show. I need all the answers. That's actually a really good question. It just had me kind of thinking like maybe Atlanteans have like some like, maybe like baleen.
00:37:16
Speaker
teeth in the back of their throat and they can take in plankton and krill because I don't know what else would exist down there. Wow, you just gave a great like oceanology biology lesson. I had no idea what those things were called with whales. That's awesome. Well, I spent some time in Monterey and they've got the Monterey Bay Aquarium there. So I made a few visits there and I've have always been fascinated with the with the ocean and especially like the deep sea the things that it's difficult for us as human beings with our you know,
00:37:44
Speaker
squishy bodies that can't handle that pressure, you know, how modern technology has allowed us to learn more and more about the ocean. So yeah, it's definitely cool stuff. I will say this is my last point on the ocean side of things. That was a really cool moment. As you talk about humans not being able to necessarily handle the depths of the ocean.
00:38:04
Speaker
Was the little monologue we got out of Calder at the end talking about his first time going up above the water that he was scared he didn't know how it was going to go and taking those first steps and his gills dried out and his lungs suddenly for the first time filled with air and
00:38:21
Speaker
Yeah, you kind of forget that they are a totally different being that despite having lungs They're not using them the entire time that they're underwater It was just kind of a cool insight as well as they panned across all of the characters that we loved in that moment of You know everyone with their loved ones. We got to see that Lagann had his baby or the family had their baby because he didn't birth the baby but
00:38:47
Speaker
Yeah, it was just a nice, it was a bow on top of everything. For sure. Right there at the end. I really enjoyed that little monologue he had. Yeah, likewise. And I appreciate you calling that out because, you know, Calder has this manner of speaking that's very, it's almost poetic in a way how straightforward he is. But that line in particular about his lungs expanding really did stick out to me as well and was
00:39:11
Speaker
beautiful language, just the imagery was was all there, even though he didn't actually have like a flashback, just him describing it. I was visualizing it in my mind. So. So yeah, last time I'll say it, but Kari Payton, because I was gonna say he speaks in the poetic manner. He also wrote the poetic manner. This is the first time you get to know that he actually did all of that. He is Kelder. Every time forever, he's going to have to be this character.
00:39:36
Speaker
firing on all cylinders. The last little thing I have about the Atlantis ongoing was we mentioned that Octopus delegate character last week. I did get confirmation that that character is Topo, who we actually saw all the way back in either season one or season two when Calder made his first visit
00:39:58
Speaker
to Atlantis. He was kind of the one that was there working on some art that kind of came alongside him and expressed a lot of joy in seeing him. But he was actually voiced
00:40:11
Speaker
by James Arnold Taylor, who a lot of people will recognize for his work in a lot of the animated Star Wars shows as the voice of Obi-Wan. Thank you for looking that up because I know I said specifically last week, whoever that character is, they have a notable voice and I can't tell you where it's from. So knowing that is awesome. But also he's the voice of G Gordon Godfrey.
00:40:37
Speaker
Okay. Which is another just fun world connection. Okay. He must have taken over for Tim Curry because I know Tim Curry was doing the voice, at least the first couple of seasons, and he suffered a stroke. Oh, yes. But he does a great job emulating what Tim Curry brought to the table originally. And those are big shoes to fill, so all credit to him. Big clown shoes, if you know what I'm saying.
00:41:02
Speaker
I set it up and I was ashamed I did. Thank you for picking up on it. I couldn't help myself. I could not help myself.
Superboy and Lex Luthor in Phantom Zone
00:41:11
Speaker
Okay. We've been going for a while now, so let's tackle this very impactful final scene. I will let you get the ball rolling. Obviously, we know that Superboy has been in the Phantom Zone or what we're referring to as the Phantom Zone for lack of a better term.
00:41:27
Speaker
And we finally got to see the bus go by we have a timeline of things happening the bus has well I guess we don't have a timeline because the bus travels through time But either way this is the moment the bus went by him right while it was doing all of its time jumps and It was really impactful not because we saw the bus not because hey, there's hope and
00:41:49
Speaker
But for the weird purpose of Lex Luthor showing up to put a hand on his shoulder and look at him, especially after he's having all these flashbacks to what life was before he came into power with Superman. He was regretting decisions, saying Superman never should have trusted me, panicking because he had that flash.
00:42:11
Speaker
last episode of him potentially killing Superman. So now he feels like he's killed his brother. And then to have his other father show up the evil part of him inside his clone body. Right. I don't know what it means. Like, I want to speculate, but I literally can't. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that matter.
00:42:38
Speaker
You know, I wish I did, but I really don't, but I'm of the same mind as you. It was just after seeing him just kind of like journey across this purgatory, this kind of realm between realms, for lack of a better term.
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, it was really dark stuff. It's something we didn't bring up on our coverage of the last three episodes, but he did have that vision which was reenacted in this episode where he saw himself as, I can't remember the name of the character that's basically the Bizarro version of him, but he saw himself as that character snapping Superman's neck. So that has to be something that's coming from within because we know
00:43:26
Speaker
outside of that swimming creature that was attacking him and acting on his rage, all of these things are manifestations of what he has going on inside of him. So even though it seems like he's spent so much time with McGahn and had a happy life there, the fact that Lex Luthor is still
00:43:50
Speaker
somewhat of a father figure to him. It speaks volumes about some of the things he's been shouldering and some of the burdens he's been carrying. But in terms of what red sun means, I'm trying to recall when, because this is not the first time we've heard red sun in the show, right? Lex Luthor said it to him previously.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yeah, it may have been a trigger word in some kind of clone hypnosis I do know because I watch the subtitles It's red Sun like the Sun in the sky not red like my son, right? Which I do know red sons are what gives Superman his power in terms of comics That's why he's so powerful on earth is because we're close to a red Sun if I'm not mistaken for sure Yeah, so it could be something along those lines and I do wonder if this gives a
00:44:37
Speaker
I want to say more credence to our thoughts about, you know, this zone being something to do with his cloning process and the gene morphs.
Lex Luthor's Influence Over Superboy
00:44:45
Speaker
But it could potentially be his clone routes coming back up because like he said, he's half Superman's DNA and half Lex Luthor's DNA. So it could have something to do with the Lex part of him taking over in whatever realm the cloning process has put him in.
00:45:02
Speaker
I like that thought. You do have me thinking like even though we're unclear of whether or not he has actually died
00:45:15
Speaker
Maybe a part of him has died and that Lex Luthor side of him is kind of having to come out in order to keep him alive in some regard now. This could also literally be Lex Luthor staring at a clone tank with another version of him in it. And he's waking up the other version and suddenly he's going to come hurtling back.
00:45:40
Speaker
That's gripping stuff right there. This is all theorizing, and I will use this as a way to transfer into another theory. Real quickly before you do that, I did just want to mention that even with my limited comics knowledge, I do know that Red Sun is a reference to Superman Red Sun, which was an arc where we saw a different version of Superman if he had been raised in the Soviet era Russia.
00:46:08
Speaker
Interesting. Yes. I know they made an animated film about it as well. Yes. One I actually haven't had the chance to watch, so maybe that'll be something we talk about if it pertains. Sure. Yeah, definitely.
Hidden Phrase in Episode Titles
00:46:21
Speaker
No, so I was going to use this as a transition to last week
00:46:24
Speaker
we talked about the first letter of every episode spelling out some sort of thing. And we got invitation to me, Jay Scotty and I both immediately went to Neil because I couldn't think of anything that involved kneecaps. Jay Scotty, did you have any thoughts on what this could be with our remaining nine letters now that we have Neil totally out there? So if there are nine letters left,
00:46:50
Speaker
But the word before has six letters in it. And then God has three letters in it. So I'm just, correct me if I'm stealing your thunder, because this is your realm here. You're the one that pays attention to this stuff better than I do. But Neil before God, just given the conversation we had on our first episode back into season four with Violet talking about she had encountered a God before.
00:47:17
Speaker
Gabriel's mother being able to tell her, like, granny goodness does not actually sound like God. That's like a self-proclaimed God who's not actually God.
00:47:25
Speaker
Right. Darkseid? Yeah, it could be any of these gods. Yeah. So you're right on the money with my first one that I have written here. Okay. And then I remembered there's a notable Superman character named Zod. So it could just as easily be Neil before Zod. And the transition point of why I said, hey, this is a great time to talk about it. Lex also has three letters.
00:47:50
Speaker
Could be as simple as Neil before Lex if we're talking about Superboy being taken over by Lex as an evil version of himself. As simple as, you know, back in front of Lex Luthor.
00:48:02
Speaker
I like all three of those theories, but the one that I'm really enjoying is Zod because Zod was banished to the Phantom Zone as we've seen in the various iterations. That's basically how he survived the destruction of Krypton in the first place. What if Zod gets him out of the Phantom Zone? Oh, we may have found something.
00:48:27
Speaker
That's awesome. Yeah Well now I just want to throw out all the rest of my ideas. Yeah, what you got? No, I meant throw them away No, I also I realized at one point I could just start coming up with characters with different like Numbers of letters so I had to give up at some point I came up with the best ones that were relevant Okay, Neil Ford Assad because we saw a decide I believe he was the one that gave McGahn's brother the bomb in the first place
00:48:56
Speaker
Correct, yes. So DeSaud could come back. Neil for Savage fits. Obviously Vandal Savage is a big deal. And then these two are just much more general and they could be throwing us in this direction. Neil at his or at her feet.
00:49:12
Speaker
It could be any him or her. As well as just kneel and grieve. There's been so much talk about grief, so much talk about loss in the season. It could be as simple as, hey, slow down and stop, smell the roses and grieve for what you need to. Because we also have this little kind of the final credit conversation, again, gets back into how they're handling the loss of their compatriots.
00:49:37
Speaker
you continue to impress me with your insight and thoughts there. And I'm glad you didn't throw those out, like discard them. I'm glad you threw them out there on the air for us to listen to because yeah, I like all of those as well. I'm still kind of, I'm really liking that Zod one, but I think all of those are very poignant. And especially the the Neil and grief, you know, given the through lines that we've had, especially in the last few episodes, that would be very, very heartfelt.
00:50:07
Speaker
Before we wrap up, I did have one other point just as we talked about that little last scene. And this is just transitioning into what's happening in the future here. We know that there's another arc about to start. I have not heard whether or not it's going to be Dick Grayson's Nightwing or Rocket.
00:50:26
Speaker
don't know who's next, but there's been a bit of a focus this season on mentioning all of the characters, not just Superboy, who have passed, including one Robin, Jason Todd. As we gear up for the Nightwing Arc, there is just the question that I want to throw out there to any of our fans, just as we start to think about it.
00:50:51
Speaker
I'm wondering if they're going to keep the same Jason Todd arc that we've seen the same reason that he passed on because it seems like he was with the team, which all comic and all animated in every form of media where we've ever seen Jason Todd. He's only been at Batman's side when it happens.
00:51:11
Speaker
So I want to know more of this relationship. Was he deep into the team? Was the team there when the event happened and what this means? And I hope we get to explore it in the Nightwing arc, but it just keeps coming up enough and enough. I kind of wanted to prep the thought, hoping that we get the Nightwing arc next because I'm just really excited for that. Anyone who's a long time listener knows he is my favorite character alongside Batman. So I wanted to also talk about that because it's fun.
00:51:40
Speaker
Yeah, as you kind of break it down like that, I kind of hope it goes in that direction when you first started talking about the other characters that were out there. Rocket is a character that I would love to know more about, and I kind of hope they could retroactively do what they did for Zatanna with Rocket, and we could get her story a little bit more fleshed out and whatnot. But given some of the things we saw on season three and even earlier in the season, like with the little glimpses of
00:52:06
Speaker
Jade and what she has going on with the League of Shadows, and it seems like Rey Shirazha Ghul, what have you, does not have the League of Shadows under his control like he once did. We did always have those flashes of that ninja character with the red hood. So that seems like too big of an Easter egg to put there and not do anything with.
00:52:29
Speaker
Yeah, and I mean, we talked at length about them completely changing Oracle and Batgirl's backstory for this show. They could do it again with Jason Todd, and I would be very, very happy because we've gotten a little beaten over the head with that specific story in the past like 10 years. So I would like a change, but I hope they're not just making it an Easter egg. I really hope it does matter.
00:52:55
Speaker
Yeah, it would it would be nice to have a fresh take on that story. That's not just surface level, like not to throw too much shade at Batman Arkham Knight because it was a great game. But I remember in the oh, yeah, I guess I should I should say spoiler warning for Arkham Knight.
00:53:11
Speaker
Yeah, I was just giving you the eyebrows because that is my favorite game in the series. Okay, interesting. Be careful with what you say here. Okay, it was just it was just the way the developers like all the way leading up to they were like, No, this is an original character. This is an original character. And it turned out spoilers again, the Arkham Knight was Jason Todd. Yeah.
00:53:34
Speaker
is good, but I agree. Give us something new. Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay. We're getting close to an hour mark here, so that just shows how high we were on this episode. It was only a 25-minute episode, but we had lots to discuss, lots to speculate. I appreciate you being here with me, Andrew. Did you have any other final thoughts before we wrap up here?
00:53:54
Speaker
No, I'm excited for what's coming next in Young Justice, whether it's Rocket or Nightwing. Like I said, it's such a good show. So good. Yeah. Likewise. And hopefully we can have, you know, Zuhair returns sooner rather than later. But in the meantime, thank you so much for listening. Thanks for all the feedback we get. Again, I will encourage you if you like what we're doing here.
00:54:16
Speaker
Share our show with your friends if you think they would appreciate this insight and passion for animated content. It is an excellent time to be a fan of animated content. And if you'd like to give us a review, that is tremendous for our growth, and we certainly would appreciate it. So that's it from me this week. I am J. Scottie St. Clair, joined by the always insightful Andrew Rogers. Thanks so much for tuning in. That's T-double-O-N-I-N. Until next week, just like Ligon, muscle, muscle.
00:54:45
Speaker
Well done. Thank you for listening to the Animation Deliberation Podcast, a proud member of the Strandepanda Network. If you would like to contact us, you can email AnimationDeliberationPodcast at gmail.com or follow us on Twitter at AnimationDelib1. For this and other great shows, you can visit Strandepanda.com or join the great community that is the Strandepanda Chat Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash svch. You're invited to take a vacation.
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Speaker
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Speaker
Alright, tune in next time, and remember, stay well.
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Speaker
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