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With Paul Woolley
81 Plays2 years ago
In our western cultures, the way we present the gospel and the way it is embodied appears to be anything but "good news". It's worrying, disappointing, even life-diminishing news! But in a world of pandemics and Putin, how can we hold out real, authentic good news to our friends who are so desperate for it? Andy and Kristi explore this question with Paul Woolley this time on PEP Talk.
Paul Woolley joined the London Institute of Contemporary Christianity as CEO in January 2021, having been Deputy Chief Executive at Bible Society. He was previously the founder and director of the influential faith and society think tank Theos. In addition to studying theology, he has worked in parliament and the media. He is married to Ruth, and they have four young children. They live in Wiltshire and enjoy being outdoors, playing board games, and keeping chickens.
Have a look at these resources from LICC which Paul mentions:
https://licc.org.uk/resources/6ms/
https://licc.org.uk/events/40-cities-tour/
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Welcome
00:00:00
Speaker
Hi, thanks for downloading PepTalk. If you enjoy today's episode, why not get a free copy of Andy's book or my book by becoming a regular supporter? Visit us at solas-cpc.org and donate just £3 per month. Thanks so much. On with the show.
00:00:28
Speaker
Well, hello and welcome to another edition of Pep Talk, the persuasive evangelism podcast. I'm Andy Bannister from the Solas Centre for Public Christianity up in Scotland. And I'm joined as ever by my wonderful energetic co-host, Christy Mayer, from the other end of the country in London. Christy, how are you doing today? Doing well, thanks. But, you know, post-COVID fatigue, I don't really feel that kind of energetic effervescence. But it's great to be with you anyway, Andy, for another episode.
00:00:55
Speaker
We're excited because the temperature is actually in double digits now here in Scotland, so I didn't have to actually chip the ice off the duck pond this morning. Not that we have a duck pond anyway.
Guest Introduction: Paul Woolley
00:01:05
Speaker
But we are joined, as ever, we'd like to bring you some amazing guests on pep talk, and it's a real thrill to be joined today by not just an amazing guest actually, but an old friend. I've known him for, oh, at least 20 years, Paul Woolley. Paul, welcome to pep talk. Andy, thank you. Thank you for your welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to this.
00:01:24
Speaker
Now you have worn kind of various hats over those 20 or more years that we've done each of your current hat, right? You are.
00:01:32
Speaker
You are the director, you are the man in charge of the London... The Chief Executive of L.I.C.C. So what is L.I.C
Mission of LICC and the Gospel
00:01:41
Speaker
.C.? We love acronyms. Yes, an I.M.H. show. I love acronyms. L.I.C.C., what is L.I.C.C. for people who are not acquainted with the arcane world of Christian acronyms?
00:01:55
Speaker
Well as you know Andy, LICC stands for the London Institute for Contemporary Christianity. It was established in 1982 by John Stott. That means that we are 40 years old this year and John Stott set LICC up with the intention of helping people integrate the gospel
00:02:16
Speaker
with all of life and have an impact on wider culture and in various ways that remains such a core emphasis for us within LICC. So we are based in London but we work right across the UK
00:02:32
Speaker
and one of the exciting opportunities of the last couple of years for all the challenges of lockdown of course has been the way that we've been able to extend our reach and impact and that's something that we're looking to do more of in the coming years.
00:02:47
Speaker
Paul, that sounds wonderful and just utterly thrilled to meet you. The work of LICC is just so important and just love hearing the name John Stott as well. But you mentioned the gospel there. What is the gospel, Paul? We talk about it quite a bit, but how do you understand it? How do we, what is it?
00:03:04
Speaker
Well, I mean, that is such an interesting question, isn't it, Christie? And as you asked the question, I was suddenly taken back to being a student at secondary school when I was about 15. And this was a question that was being asked. There was a question that it was thought would probably appear in one of our exam papers.
00:03:25
Speaker
And of course, as RE students, we were being coached to give various answers that depended where in the New Testament and were you going with Paul's articulation of the gospel? And in fact, did Paul have a particular understanding of the gospel, et cetera, et cetera? But of course, fundamentally, the gospel is the good news. It's the good news about Jesus Christ. Fundamentally, it's the good news that God in the life, in the death,
00:03:53
Speaker
in the resurrection and the ascension of Jesus is putting the world to rights, is making all things new. And of course the implications of that are absolutely mind-blowing. I think what strikes me as interesting, a straighter way in that answer, is you mentioned the word good news and of course many folks are aware that the word gospel of course is the, that's apparently what the word gospel means, right, it's the English rendering of the Greek word
Challenges and Authenticity in Sharing the Gospel
00:04:20
Speaker
and straight away, I mean, when I first sort of began thinking about that, that's intriguing because sometimes we could think of the message of Christ as being like a formula, you know, a little prayer that if you pray just right, you get to go to heaven. I have some of my non-Christian friends who I think if you ask them, might have in their mind that, you know, Christianity is about a religion or some advice or a system of morals. But the word that the first Christians chose is a word that means good
00:04:49
Speaker
news. Is that important that that's the word they picked rather than some of those other words they could have done? What changes if we begin thinking about the message of Jesus as good news in that way? Yeah, I mean too right that it's good news and it's important that it's good news. I think
00:05:06
Speaker
what you're touching upon is a problem that we have in our culture, particularly Western cultures, and that is that often the presentation of the gospel that is given and the way that the gospel is embodied appears to be anything but good news. I mean it's not even okay news, it's sort of disappointing news, it's worrying news, it's life diminishing news, but of course the reality
00:05:33
Speaker
of the gospel is that it is about life in all of its fullness. It's about a new heaven and a new earth. It's about being fully and truly alive. It's possibly my favorite quote, Irenaeus. It's always probably slight misquote of what he originally said, that the glory of a human being is, glory of God rather, is seen in a human being fully alive. And that is what God is about. God wants
00:06:02
Speaker
to see all of his creation flourish and Jesus is at the core of that and the tragedy often is that when that news gets into our hands and we embody it, we articulate it, we communicate it,
00:06:19
Speaker
The tragedy is that that often can be heard as bad news. And I think sometimes that is because we kind of confuse a couple of things. We sort of know theologically that in some ways the gospel is also offensive because it challenges me. It challenges my individualism. It challenges any sense that I might have that I am God.
00:06:41
Speaker
and that somehow God is subject to me. And so it challenges that profoundly. It's in that way, it's offensive. But of course, part of the problem is often the way we communicate the gospel and some of the problems and barriers people have to accessing the gospel is because bluntly, we're just offensive. We're not Christ like.
00:07:02
Speaker
And the opportunity, the challenge for us is to grow in Christ-likeness. And as we do, people then discover this really is good news. This makes a world of difference and it's positive. That's such a beautiful picture that you just presented to us Paul, just thinking about what does it
00:07:21
Speaker
What does it mean for us to be flourishing as human beings, being fully alive in God? And as we do that, it's only then that we're able to share the fullness of the gospel. What would you say?
00:07:35
Speaker
How do we go about doing that? Like, what would you say to a person who just feels a bit, like, just crushed by COVID, everything else that's going on in Ukraine right now, and just thinks, gosh, you know, I'm not feeling fully alive. Does that mean that I can't talk to my friends about this? Because that's what I feel like. I feel like the gospel isn't good news. And so if they're only be attracted to it when I'm flourishing, then I don't know where that will be. How do we, you know, what kind of
00:08:02
Speaker
pearls would you give encouragement to a brother and sister who might be listening to this and just thinking?
00:08:08
Speaker
I really want to be more Christ-like, I really want to flourish, I really want to share this good news. How would you help them kind of move on in that? Yeah, that's such a good question. I think undoubtedly one of the ways that we can be more as Jesus would be if he were us is by being authentic, by being unapologetically ourselves and not putting up a pretense.
00:08:33
Speaker
and being who we genuinely are to those that we interact with. And when we do that, that is compelling. So I think authenticity is the place to begin. I think the other thing to say is there is good news for people who are
00:08:51
Speaker
interested and want to share the good news. And the good news is this, that when people hear Christians talking about the good news, when neighbors hear their neighbors talking specifically about Jesus,
00:09:08
Speaker
The research indicates, or the research that I've seen indicates, that number one, our neighbours are more open to Jesus than we think they are. And number two, when for the most part those conversations do take place, neighbours have a higher view of their Christian neighbours. They're more attracted to them.
00:09:33
Speaker
And I think that's really interesting and is often something that we don't think to be the case. I think often our perception is that our neighbors are like perhaps slightly kind
Research on Openness to Jesus
00:09:45
Speaker
of plighter versions of Richard Dawkins, that essentially they have resolved the God question in their mind, that they have faith in God's non-existence and that is how they live their lives, that is their rule of faith. If you like, the reality is that's just
00:10:02
Speaker
totally not the case. The overwhelming majority of people just really haven't thought about it and they need to be given a reason to think differently and one of the challenges but also the immense privilege that we have is to both through the words that we use but fundamentally the people that we are communicate the reality of who God is and what God has done and is continuing to do in and through the person of Jesus Christ.
00:10:30
Speaker
So that should give confidence to all of us who completely understandably often feel completely out of our depth and nervous about having these sorts of conversations. Just in case there are any Christians, you know, you know, listening from North Oxford, you know, if you do actually literally have Richard Dawkins as your neighbour, do reach out. It could be.
00:10:55
Speaker
I think that's helpful, Paul. I think the other thing as well, I'm realizing, I think that the times we're living through have changed things a little bit, haven't they? I was talking to a friend the other day at church who was like really excited because he and his wife have got a
00:11:11
Speaker
couple of neighbours they've been friends with for years, they've been very anti-faith. And then suddenly out of the blue, as Ukraine kicked off, the wife kind of opened up and confessed as they were talking one day over the back fence that she is absolutely terrified about nuclear war. And I looked at my friend and went, I guess it's Christians, these kind of things don't make you afraid, do they? And suddenly, like,
00:11:34
Speaker
this whole thing cracked open. So sometimes I think there's also things hiding in, sometimes in plain sight, even if we do have people who are style. They wanted to ask about actually sort of fold chasing that thread down a little bit. The other thing that struck me was news.
00:11:49
Speaker
I'd love to get your thoughts on, particularly as you're somebody I know is previously in other careers too, who's kept an eye on politics and culture and some of the big themes. I came up with a fascinating word the other day, a kind of new word that's been coined in the last couple of years. Have you come across the word doomscrolling?
00:12:06
Speaker
doom scrolling. It describes that phenomenon when you're particularly late at night, tired and depressed, sitting on the couch, you get your phone out and you're scrolling through depressing story after depressing story, getting more and more and more low. And of course, Christian is not immune from it, but it made me think about the fact that
00:12:24
Speaker
I think it's not true that we're all shaped by news. It's not that Christians are people of news and our non-Christian friends aren't. Everybody is shaped by news in some way. And perhaps today that's even more obvious with the big themes out there. So I suppose to where I've taken this rambling question is practically speaking in the workplace, which I know is what interests you folks at LICC in particular, how do Christians begin
Living the Gospel Authentically
00:12:51
Speaker
that sort of showing that better story, showing there's a different news story to shape you rather than the doomscrolling of the age that you're living. Because I think I mean a lot of Christians are almost quite like rabbits in the headlights. They just don't know where to begin. And you mentioned things like authenticity and things as a brilliant. Where does the rubber hit the road on that? How do you, how does one begin with your colleagues perhaps making those first steps towards showing there is a bigger story to be to be talked about?
00:13:17
Speaker
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And that firstly is the starting point to recognize that there are multiple narratives at work in the different spaces and places that we live and work and show up. And that all of us are being informed by these narratives all the time. And not just one narrative. I mean, I at any one time am being informed, shaped, formed, informed by multiple narratives. And we have to navigate our way through that.
00:13:47
Speaker
The opportunity I think that we have in that space is not only to tell the story, but to be the story. So we live the story. That is what Jesus calls us to as his disciples. We're called to follow him and live our lives as he would live them if he were us.
00:14:07
Speaker
And that involves living this glorious existence that we have in God's kingdom. And that's not just a future kind of event, that's a present thing. So we can live the story. I remember Rome Williams a number of years ago was talking about scripture.
00:14:25
Speaker
and different translations of scripture. And I remember he ended by saying words to the effect of the most significant translation of scripture is the translation of people's lives. And I thought that's absolutely right, that ultimately the majority of people are going to experience scripture through its translation in and through a person's life.
00:14:52
Speaker
that a person will come to an understanding or not of the big story of God and the world, of what it means to be human, of what's wrong with the world and what's being done to put everything to right. They'll come to that understanding through the lives of others. And that's amazing. And so our opportunity is to be faithful, authentic,
00:15:16
Speaker
disciples of Jesus, that's also a massively radical thing. If we take that really seriously, that not only changes me in every dimension, but it changes the places and spaces I live and work in, it changes my communities, ultimately changes the world. It really is that significant. So we have an opportunity not
00:15:38
Speaker
only to talk about these things, but to embody it, to be it, and to give people the opportunity to experience something of that. And I guess therein is a challenge that we have to ask ourselves, to what extent are we living in this reality? And to the extent that we're not, we have to draw close to Jesus and follow Him and seek to grow in Christlikeness.
00:16:08
Speaker
That's just such a wonderful challenge and reminder, Paul. I can't remember who said it, but something about how we can be the only Bibles that people read. We are the message in that way. I think that's such an encouragement, but also, as you say, such a challenge to draw close to Jesus through that.
00:16:29
Speaker
What would you say? Because these sound like these are, like the gospel transforms us as individuals. And as we kind of enter the kingdom, the kingdom then grows and spreads. What would you say to the person who's listening who's thinking, oh, this sounds wonderful. It sounds quite grand. And I'm just not sure what my like daily life is able to kind of contribute to that in that, where would you, do you have any kind of,
00:16:59
Speaker
Just thinking very practically now, like any stories of people who have engaged with a storied kind of way of embodying the gospel themselves and then sharing it with others. Why that particular emphasis over others?
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, I suppose I'd have two thoughts on that, Christi. The first thing to say is that it should encourage us when we read the Gospels, when we read the New Testament, that the people that Jesus gathers around himself
00:17:35
Speaker
are the ordinary, everyday people. They're not the elites, they're not the academics, they're not the PhDs, they're not those in power, they're ordinary people and therefore that
00:17:49
Speaker
at least should be interesting to us. It should at least be interesting to us that they are the sort of people that are most drawn to Jesus. And often, of course, we see how, in fact, for those in positions of power and influence, Jesus is a profound challenge to them because, of course, Jesus invites them to recognize that they're not all they're cracked up to be.
00:18:14
Speaker
And, you know, if you're in a position of power and influence, you probably find that harder to swallow than if you're not. So I think we should be encouraged by those who were attracted to Jesus in the first place. And we should also ask a question about the extent to which ordinary, every people are attracted, say, to the church today, to the extent that that's not true. Well, maybe part of the issue there is that we're not sufficiently like Jesus. That's just a thought.
00:18:38
Speaker
The second thing, though, is that I think there are all sorts of examples where living the story leads to conversation. So this is just one. So my wife has a couple of friends. She has more. If she were listening, she would say, I have more friends, but amongst her friends, she has two. And those those two friends happen to know each other.
00:19:01
Speaker
And one of these friends, both don't have any active conscious faith in God. They don't have what they would describe as a personal faith. And one of the friends was going through an incredibly difficult period recently, really where her whole world was collapsing around her. And it was incredibly traumatic.
00:19:30
Speaker
And she was speaking to this other friend who also knows Ruth and just telling her about it. And the other friend, again, not someone who has any belief in God, said to her friend, you must tell Ruth, that's the name of my wife, you must tell Ruth, she will pray for you.
00:19:51
Speaker
I find that extraordinary. I find it extraordinary that someone without any belief in God is inviting a friend going through a traumatic experience who also doesn't have belief in God to speak to a friend who does, a friend who's shared her life with her,
00:20:15
Speaker
because that other friend knows Ruth will pray for her. And therefore, there is something that is compelling about this story. There is something that is meaningful about this alternative story that in this situation Ruth was living. And I think that's how
00:20:37
Speaker
we sort of start to see the gospel being a whole life thing. So of course it involves the spoken word and that's where asking for someone to pray for you comes in. But in a way, people got to that point because they became intrigued, curious, attracted by this bigger story that was being lived out. And I think that
00:21:06
Speaker
Is that not our dream? Is that not our hope in our own everyday places, on our own front lines, that as we live authentically, as followers of Jesus, as we simply share our lives with people, and luckily that's what it's about, isn't it? As we love our neighbours as ourselves, these opportunities emerge. Amazing. Paul, we've
00:21:30
Speaker
kind of almost reached the end of the show. So I've got one kind of last question as we close. We've covered a lot of stuff and you've shared a lot that's helpful and is very practical things in there as well. Obviously I know this is a space that LICC do a lot in. There's lots of resources and so forth that you have.
00:21:48
Speaker
Is there anything particular, folks who listened to this and thought, I want to dig a bit further, is there anything that you guys do at LIC? Say you particularly recommend, we'll obviously put a link to the show notes, but for people who are new to you and the work you do, anything particularly you direct them to among the myriad resources that you and the team have produced at Lick.
LICC's Six Ms Framework and 40 Cities Tour
00:22:08
Speaker
Thank you, Andy. That's generous. Well, if we could have two, that would be really good. You absolutely can. You absolutely can. So the two are, firstly, I'd really encourage people to have a look at a resource that we've developed called the Six Ms. So the Six Ms. So the Six Ms is a resource that really seeks to provide people with a framework
00:22:28
Speaker
for living life with God in their everyday spaces and places. And part of that framework does involve talking about who Jesus is, but other aspects of that framework, for example, involve modelling godly character. So if we model godly character or if we see our work suddenly as being
00:22:49
Speaker
good that this is something that God's interested in and we're working for God. That starts to bring some meaning to what we're doing and it gives us a way of kind of understanding how we do that as disciples of Jesus. So that's the first thing, the six M's
00:23:06
Speaker
framework and that's available on our website and there's a bunch of videos that go with that really case studies of a whole range of people who are involved in different professions and some aren't in paid employment at all but they're living this stuff out day in day out so that's the first thing. The second thing is I mentioned at the start that this is our 40th anniversary year
00:23:29
Speaker
And in that context, and as we have now merged out of lockdown, we are embarking on a 40 cities tour. So we will be in cities right across the UK, and it would be great to meet people. So if anyone wants to turn up at one of those, that would be amazing. The place to go to find out details is our website, licc.org.uk forward slash 40 cities for the 40 cities stuff.
00:23:58
Speaker
There are a number of locations that are up there at the moment. There'll be more that follow in due course, but that again is an opportunity for people just to get envisioned as well as tooled up a bit for living as disciples of Jesus in everyday life. Brilliant.
00:24:15
Speaker
Paul, that's really helpful and links to both those resources that you've mentioned we'll put in the show notes. So folks listening to this who want to follow through, just look at the description in wherever you've got this podcast online or in your app, and you should be able to click right through and get all of that info. So it just falls finally to me to Paul, so say thank you so much for giving up half an hour this afternoon and always great to talk. And I hope folks listening home have found this helpful. So once again, thanks for joining us on pep talk.
00:24:43
Speaker
Andy and Christy, thank you so much. I've loved it. And I hope you'll have me back one day. We would love to. And in the meantime, wherever you're listening to this podcast, hope you enjoyed it. Hope you have a brilliant rest of the day. And Christy and I will catch you again in two weeks time for another episode with a different guest and another great, helpful conversation about how we can share our faith with our friends, neighbors and colleagues. Thanks for listening.