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Invincible Feedback
750 Plays4 years ago
INVINCIBLE season 1 might be over, but the discussion isn't! We dive into your, our listeners, feedback!
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Transcript
Introduction and Solomon Brothers Promotion
00:00:00
Speaker
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Podcast Introduction and Listener Engagement
00:00:24
Speaker
Welcome back to the Animation Deliberation podcast, the podcast where we take action animation and cartoons seriously, but not too seriously. Myself, Jay Scottie St. Clair, your host, along with my co-host, Zuhair Ali, and our friend Nathaniel Muzzi are back to get into your listener feedback for Invincible. All that right after these ads we don't have any control over.
00:00:48
Speaker
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Advertisements and Promotions
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Speaker
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00:01:49
Speaker
Sing along if you know the words.
Anticipation for New Animated Series
00:01:51
Speaker
A one, two, three, it's time for animation deliberation. A conversation and a celebration of our favorite action animated series. Yeah. All right. All right. Well, welcome back folks. It is the animation deliberation podcast. I'm your host Jay Scottie St. Clair. And I've got, as stated at the top there, Zuhair Ali and Nathaniel Muzzy. Guys, how we doing?
00:02:18
Speaker
I'm going through a little bit of, uh, invincible withdrawal, but it's all good. Modok starts tomorrow, so I'll live. I'll make it through the day somehow. How about you use your hair? I'm a little relieved that, uh, I can kind of chill with a little bit of live action stuff. Uh, mostly being sitcoms, but yeah, we're going to get back into the hype of binging animated series very soon.
00:02:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And those of you that have been paying close attention to the feed and whatnot, we have been partnering with the Star Wars Universe podcast to cover the Bad Batch, which is ongoing. But then we do have MODOK just around the corner, as Muzzy mentioned. So we're actually going to do our first
00:03:06
Speaker
live cast of that at the time of this recording that's going to take place tomorrow. But yeah, lots of exciting things happening here in the world of animation, and we're looking forward to getting right into it.
Contest Announcements and Gratitude
00:03:17
Speaker
We did have our five-star review contest that was in partnership with our network, the Stranded Panda Network, and they actually announced the winner of that review on Monday's Marvel Cinematic Universe cast, which they did on Twitch.
00:03:32
Speaker
And we have the winner here. I have to give thanks to Muzzy for doing the research here to find this winner on the live stream there. It's KL Bucks. So KL Bucks, if you haven't already reached out to the guys there at the MCUcast, reach out to us.
00:03:49
Speaker
And we will make sure that that shirt, whichever one you want, gets to you ASAP. And thank you very much for leaving that five-star review. And on the subject of five-star reviews, Zuhair, we've got a new one, correct? We do. Sweet. And we always appreciate many more, so keep them coming. Please. Hey, send us less than five, too.
Listener Feedback on Invincible
00:04:12
Speaker
I probably won't read them out loud, but we need to know. Drew Gretsch, I apologize if I said that wrong.
00:04:19
Speaker
The invincible coverage has been absolutely fantastic, big time fan of Marvel and Star Wars, not necessarily in that order, and I'm very excited to hear them talk about the Bad Batch, What If, and maybe MODOK on May 21st. Good news for you buddy, we are going to be talking about all of those.
00:04:38
Speaker
Yes, yes, as I mentioned, lots of exciting stuff just around the corner and hopefully plenty of opportunities to lean into our partnership with the network and collaborate with some other shows. And, you know, even you pandas out there, you know, a lot of you guys have really interesting and unique voices, just like Mr. Muzzy here. We'd love to have you on.
Discussion on Invincible's Themes and Style
00:04:58
Speaker
This is going to be a listener feedback episode, so we won't be doing our normal pontificating and speculating and deliberating quite as much. We're going to make this a platform for your voices. We did get a lot of good feedback, but I wanted to take this opportunity to
00:05:16
Speaker
Highlight some of the feedback that's kind of a plug for the network in the community Which we are heavily involved in and that is the stranded panda network and the stranded panda chat We actually had a lot of good feedback come from that community and I wanted to highlight Karen McCormick Thomas's comments, so she said Just finish watching invincible my feedback brutal
00:05:42
Speaker
Actually, I really did enjoy and look forward to further seasons, but who knew animation could be so gory? Obviously live the shelter life. And the reason I wanted to bring this up is because as much as I think
00:05:58
Speaker
I don't want to say enjoy, but I think it is fair to say we appreciated the gore and how effective it was in this series. But there have been a few people out there that have voiced a few misgivings and wondered if it was a little too gratuitous. So this particular comment inspired some nice conversation.
00:06:17
Speaker
I wanted to bring up Kai Smith's response here. He said, I think they needed to show the gore to show how much Mark is in over his head. You can even compare him to Adam Eve. Her parents never wanted her to be anything but a calm, quiet housewife. She just wants to help people.
00:06:36
Speaker
Mark on the other hand has been told for the most of his Excuse me has been told for most of his life that he is supposed to become the greatest superhero of all time So when he fails again and again it weighs down on him more because he feels like with this power the bad things happening are his fault and I don't know about you, but that final line there makes me think instantly of a spider-man homecoming that with great power comes great responsibility Being said but not quite said
00:07:04
Speaker
yeah uh absolutely it's uh this that's that's clearly a spiderman reference um but i i i can see where the gore would be in a little off-putting it's it's almost more shocking in this than say like the boys is extremely gory but because that is like
00:07:30
Speaker
very obviously realistic you know real actors and dark and gritty you you expect the gore this show doesn't give you too many hints until omni man just mercs the entire guardians of the globe oh wow yeah yeah and that's honestly that's where the the series hooked me as much as i enjoyed the pilot and just spending time with mark and in that world and getting introduced to all these characters and just
00:07:59
Speaker
getting that world established, it really was that final scene that I think has made Invincible be, you know, such a part of the conversation here going forward. We've kind of talked about how the show is very similar to the boys in a lot of ways, but I'm gonna repeat myself here and say, I really hope this follows a similar trajectory to the boys where, you know, the first season gets a lot of buzz, but then when we get to season two, it's like, you know, the whole zeitgeist is right behind it. That's my hope there.
00:08:29
Speaker
Yeah. Oh, so here, did you have anything you wanted to say on this particular subject matter? I know you just actually recently appeared on the superhero ethics podcast.
00:08:39
Speaker
Yeah, and that was one of the things that I mentioned to Matthew Fox as well was that they set up the initial Guardians of the Globe to seem like Justice League members so that we have that connection. We have that familiarity and then we get that attachment within one episode instead of characters of, instead of episodes of character development, excuse me, to develop this bond.
00:09:06
Speaker
So Omni-Man coming in and wrecking them the way that he did, it set the presence of the show of this isn't your typical superhero show. And this isn't your typical animated show. It was what they needed to properly depict the intensity of like, this is how serious a story is going to be. And we want you to know this right off the bat.
00:09:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, agreed. And then it all comes full circle there. I mean, we saw little snippets of the gore throughout the series just to kind of remind us how visceral it all was. But then that finale, you know, just the brutality between Mark and Omnimam. I've been on record saying it, but it's been a while since I've been so, so moved by something. And that's why I appreciate the gore so much, because what you're saying, the stakes are so high and it's so effective. Anyway,
00:10:05
Speaker
We do have some additional feedback and Zuhair is going to take the lead on reading some of this out. So, Zuhair, what do we have next?
00:10:18
Speaker
Alright Chris Thursby says, Damn right, if Walking Dead gets so many seasons when in my personal opinion, they have kind of written out a lot of the heart and soul of the comics, Invincible deserves many more seasons. All the changes they have made just enhance the comic story and make it better. The heart and soul of the original story is still there and just being enhanced. I love this show.
00:10:42
Speaker
Yeah. The reason I like this comment so much is because we've had a lot of discussion about this being an adaptation and having the source material there. And while it does seem to be
00:10:55
Speaker
very faithful in terms of the themes that are being touched on. One of the recurring things I've heard from even people that are very familiar with the source material is that it is like zigging where you expect to zag, and then the people that are super familiar with the comics are enjoying it just as much. So, Muzzy, the reason we initially had you on this part of this conversation in the first
Invincible's Adaptation and Creative Changes
00:11:22
Speaker
place
00:11:22
Speaker
is because of your familiarity. You kind of fell off somewhere. It had been a number of years since you read it, but can you speak to any of that at all? And your charming voice, of course. Of course, yes, of course. Yeah, I made the joke that what this podcast really needed was a guy that sounded like he's from the movie Fargo. So I'm glad to be that guy for you. So obviously, there's so many people in Stranded Panda Chat that
00:11:50
Speaker
Have read the entire series. So I I defer to them on like the greater arc, but Yeah from what I remember of the ones I read and maybe I'll binge the comics over the summer I think they're doing an omnibus or there is an omnibus. That's pretty pretty affordable, but Anyway
00:12:16
Speaker
I felt the show was more engaging and part of part of that is it's animated so obviously but even like little things they did with the twists
00:12:32
Speaker
making Amber African American. Right. Yeah. Good call. Like the little things they changed and and Robert Kirkman was very forward. Like it in hindsight, this is how he would have done the comic is what he's he said or that's paraphrasing him.
00:12:51
Speaker
But yeah, I think they took a great story and they're making it better, which not a lot of shows can really live up to the source material. So A plus to Amazon and Kirkman.
00:13:06
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, 100% agreed. I'm super glad you brought up the fact that, you know, they changed the race of Amber, but then another character that wasn't as much of a focal point, but in the research I did on the new Guardians of the Globe team, the character of Shrinking Ray, I guess that character was male in the comics. So great opportunity to have more inclusivity and diversity there, so yeah.
00:13:35
Speaker
Uh, but the, the other part of that comment, um, you know, speaks to the, the many more seasons. So, um, part of the show that there's going to be a little bit of speculation about the future. And I felt that the, the next comment in particular, um, kind of spoke to some of that, that speculation. Zuhair, did you want to get to Mr. Geilenfeldt's comment there?
00:14:14
Speaker
I can't speak to the odds that there is a savage land in Marvel, but I will just kind of tease. We're going to get to some feedback later on that kind of makes me think that Blake knows more than he's letting on to here. But one of the other reasons I like this comment so much is because we talked about that scene with Robot and how effective that was when he
00:14:19
Speaker
Yeah, the one and only Blake Gallenfelt says,
00:14:39
Speaker
showed up and that's where we learned that he had multiple drones out there and just how far he was willing to go for Monster Girl. So do you guys have anything you want to say in regards to that or the Savage Land if you have any speculation as far as that goes?
00:14:54
Speaker
I know nothing about it, so take it away, Mosie. So I don't know the answer to Blake's question. That said, he's either 100% right or they will never go back to that detail again. Those are the two outcomes I think are most likely. Blake is a omnipotent being who can see the future.
00:15:20
Speaker
or it was just a plot detail that they're gonna sweep away. Well, not to diverge too much here, but when you say he's an, what'd you call him, an omnipotent super being? Something like that. I see, I've got 100 pages left to go on Frank Herbert's Doom, so I just wanna call him the Quiz at Hot Rock now. Not many people are gonna get that one. Current copy included.
00:15:50
Speaker
What was that? Current company included. Okay, okay. Read Dune. Read Dune. The movie's coming out soon. I think that'll cover it for Blake's comment there. Now, the next one is from a beloved panda that was very excited for Invincible to come out.
00:16:13
Speaker
I think his feedback might put him in a little bit of a minority, but I'll stop leading the witness here.
Listener Critiques and Adaptation Challenges
00:16:22
Speaker
Why don't you tell us what Mr. Artista Omer's thoughts were?
00:16:27
Speaker
Well, I wanted to add a quick thing on Thursby's comment. He's talking about wanting seasons and the heart and soul of the original story and whatnot. And that's one of the things that I really appreciate about a lot of anime and some of the cartoons that we cover is the ones that actually have a clear beginning and end. And everything in the middle is actually building up to a proper story instead of trying to get more seasons just for the sake of getting more seasons.
00:16:55
Speaker
And I'm hoping that this show actually goes in that with that direction since we have established villains and characters and There if if they were to say like hey, we only do five seasons, but we wrap up the story properly Mm-hmm. I would be happy with that instead of just like waiting for more comic book material to come out or making it up just to keep the show going and just to keep the gore and all that because then you lose the story so
00:17:19
Speaker
I'm hoping that the true honoring of the heart and soul of the content is that they wrap it up when they're supposed to wrap it up.
00:17:27
Speaker
Yeah, I agree with you there. I always appreciate when there's a clear end in sight. And the fact that the comic has, you know, run its course makes me optimistic in that regard. But to me, the real wild card on the table or what will give us more of an idea of how Amazon will exactly will tackle this is that that boys, we've we've already we've compared it to the boys so much already. But that boys spin off that's taking place that's supposed to be centered around, I guess, the
00:17:54
Speaker
College for superheroes if I for supers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah That's that's one of those ones as much as I like the boys and I like season two when they started talking about doing that Concurrently with season three. I was like, are they trying to milk this too much? So we did get season two and three for invincible announced at the same time, but I
00:18:16
Speaker
Yeah, we'll just have to see. I have faith in Robert Kirkman. I did fall off of the Walking Dead, but hopefully he learned his lesson from that. We'll see. We'll see. But yeah, thanks for bringing up those thoughts, Zuhar. You're always so insightful.
00:18:40
Speaker
Alright, so to carry on with Artista Omer's insight, first of all, love your cast, love your energy, love your pandas, sorry for the long rant, and even more for the negativity, feel free to edit it down. Why would we do such a thing? Thank you. I sent you guys a call to have me come up on the cast because I'm an animation nerd and invince a head, but I'm kinda glad you didn't.
00:19:02
Speaker
I've been lukewarm on the show, griping about the cost-effective animation, but understanding why it had to be that way. I'm a purist, but I did try to separate what I knew from what the show gave me, and I warmed up to the series by episode 3. Really enjoyed episode 4 and 5. But it began detouring too far and became something completely new that I kinda didn't enjoy.
00:19:25
Speaker
I felt that this show needed to be accompanied by the source material or the viewers would get lost, but yet you guys hit some major plots on the head. I won't say what not to spoil you on later seasons.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, yes. So it became something new and different, and I felt I was watching it only on my endless love of the source material and not for my enjoyment. On the last episode I struggled not to turn it off because I did not like the brutality. It felt too shock value and not enough genuine.
00:19:58
Speaker
I felt it was gory for the sake of gore. The comics became more and more graphic as it went on and I developed my tolerance for it accordingly. Here it was out of the gate blood fast and it didn't sit well with me. On other fronts I'll make it quick. Voice acting is phenomenal. Animation is sometimes jarring and sometimes smooth and powerful. Storytelling is good but pales in comparisons which is probably not fair and I am glad it still touched you.
00:20:24
Speaker
I kinda hated the title card because the gimmick didn't land just right and always took me out. I knew it would be good enough to get more seasons so I hoped from the start they would give storylines and plot beats room to breathe and develop. Most of them felt blunt or one and done and I wanted more. Relationships felt flat or expedient or even force and I didn't buy them.
00:20:50
Speaker
I had high hopes and it was met with mediocre satisfaction for me, but I am really really glad you like it. I did too, but not as I dreamed it will. I have even less confidence in the movie option because animation has no limits, but if I could cast one character, Mr. Nagajima from Falcon and the Winter Soldier would be an awesome Mr. Lu, that Chinese old guy that turns into a dragon.
00:21:14
Speaker
I hope for more deliberations on animations in the future, peace and love, arty stuff.
00:21:40
Speaker
I think that's a pretty fair ratio. I thoroughly enjoyed it for the most part. There were a couple ones where I was like, you could have been a little more creative, but yeah. I would say, Artista, obviously he doesn't feel bad about voicing some of his critiques or anything like that, but I do think it's worth, as high as we've been on the series,
00:22:07
Speaker
There is room for improvement in subsequent seasons, and I think one of the things that we've all alluded to is that relationship with Amber. As much as I like the character of Amber, just some of the handling, especially there towards the end, left me with a little something to be desired, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see where they go from there. But even in the terms of the animation, as awesome and incredible the animation is,
00:22:35
Speaker
I did kind of notice where they were saving their budget here and there. There were some of those episodes in the middle where I talked about the poorly rendered 3D background characters. And then there were a couple of times where Mark was flying through the air and it was kind of obvious that he was completely separate from what was going on in the background, that he was just kind of a cutout drifting along. But in terms of saving their pencil mileage for
00:23:04
Speaker
the first episode and the final episode and some of those really high octane moments in between, I'm willing to overlook things like that. But what do you guys think about, you know, Artista's critiques as well as some of your own? You know, I obviously came away with a lot different feeling than Artista did. But what I would say is,
00:23:32
Speaker
It is always good to see and read feedback that is more critical of something you like than you are. I think he makes really good points about the animation, which
00:23:49
Speaker
I have found myself, after being on this podcast, being more critical of. I binged Castlevania season four and I had some knits to pick with the animation there that I might not have had before. Interesting, interesting. But, you know, it makes you aware of things. And even if those things don't bother you, it gives you a perspective.
00:24:16
Speaker
I think the one place I might push back a little, not that his feelings aren't valid, but he seems to be hoping that the show would be just kind of a one-for-one animated remake of the comics. And I could be inferring too much there, so I apologize if I am. I don't think that's unfair. He did make a pretty pointed statement about
00:24:45
Speaker
veering too far. It is something like when Marvel started bringing movies to the big screen and the million different adaptations of Hitchhiker's Galaxy
00:25:07
Speaker
if if if you can't learn to Enjoy reinterpretations of things you your odds are against you Enjoying any interpretations because they're they're going to be different mediums just aren't the same and that that can be hard for because obviously
00:25:32
Speaker
he really loved the comics and for a lot of people that's true and this will never be that and so you know for it's one of those things that
00:25:48
Speaker
You know, it's not right or wrong, but if you, if you are going to ever enjoy the cartoon, you have to let it be what it is and not constantly judge it against the choices it makes that are different. Totally. It's very well said. I would agree a hundred percent with, with all those sentiments. As you hear, you already kind of talked about, you know, um, some of your,
00:26:14
Speaker
a little bit of your feedback on his feedback with the gimmicks, especially there with the title card gimmicks. But one of the things I wanted to point out, he said that the relationships fell flat. And outside of what I mentioned with Amber and Mark's relationship, I thought that the relationships and the human side of the story was some of the strongest stuff, especially with Nolan and Debbie, Adam Yves with Mark,
00:26:41
Speaker
and with Rex obviously, Monster Girl and robots, what do you think as far as that goes? I thought they did a good job at setting up relations to build a bigger picture.
00:26:58
Speaker
But they were relationships that either weirded me out or I could have gone without.
Character Development and Representation
00:27:04
Speaker
Monster Girl and Robot being the one that weirded me out and the love triangle being the something that could have gone without. And the love triangle was something big that we talked about on superhero ethics regarding that because like a lot of it was a trope.
00:27:19
Speaker
Yeah, the hero falls in love with somebody keeps lying to him disappeared I mean the only difference was that he actually got caught and dumped for it Instead of it being like oh my god, you're a hero. I'll take you back which actually did end up happening at the end of the series So yeah, I I do what I do see what he means by the relationships. There's some things that I
00:27:45
Speaker
There's some things they had to do for the sake of storytelling. I wouldn't say they were bad, but I wouldn't say that all of them were stuff that I like really, really enjoyed. The Amber storyline, I think, did help display Adam Eve's ability to be independent and work on her own.
00:28:08
Speaker
I joked on the other cast too saying it's like she's a strong independent woman who don't need no man. And we did have the storyline of robot developing as a person because he's been a robot for so long.
00:28:25
Speaker
We see the friendship of Adam Eve and Invincible develop because they needed circumstances B to get to that point and we didn't necessarily need them to be a relationship and as much as I do I guess ship them like it's perfectly fine if they don't because they don't need to be the chemistry that they have right now is pretty great and
00:28:46
Speaker
So a lot of the relationship stuff, yeah, it helped build the story, but some of it was meant to make you uncomfortable, and some was just there to kind of set the scene, but really didn't have a crazy effect in the grand scheme of things. That's fair. I still maintain that I thought the relationships were some of the strongest stuff, even the ones that we didn't get to spend that much time with. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking
00:29:16
Speaker
Cecil and Debbie, they didn't get to spend the greatest amount of screen time together, but those scenes that they got, for me, especially there at the end, were super effective. Anyway, like I said, room to grow. We're getting season two and three, so hopefully we get to see these relationships fleshed out even more, and then we can become even more endeared to these characters.
00:29:40
Speaker
Well, thank you to RT stuff for those comments. We'll always listen to all perspectives. That's what makes for interesting conversations and that's what makes for thorough analysis. So thank you for your feedback. Don't ever hesitate to send it in. I hope season two and three doesn't hurt you as badly. Yeah. That's kind of you. That's kind of you.
00:30:05
Speaker
Well, the next piece of feedback, I'll just let you introduce this person. At this point, they almost don't need an introduction. I feel like they're as much a part of this cast as the rest of us.
00:30:17
Speaker
Aaron Deming aka Sonny Tetris. Hey J. Skydee, Zuhar, and Muzzy. The first season of Invincible was absolutely fantastic and the season finale was heartbreaking and heartwarming at the same time. As a reader of the comics, I really appreciated the changes that they made from the comics to better adapt to TV as well as adapted to 2021. Here are some of my favorite changes.
00:30:39
Speaker
William was in the closet at the beginning of the comic. Do you think it's a testament to the progress of our society has made in better accepting the LGBTQ community that they were able to let William be himself in a show taking place in 2021?
00:30:54
Speaker
It's also really funny rereading the comic right now and being pretty sure that Robert Kirkman always intended for Boylan to be gay. He's got to be overcompensating when talking to Mark in these panels, right? 2. The introduction of the teen team was extremely corny in the comics, but I think it was by design.
00:31:14
Speaker
Instead of meeting them when they fought the Flaxons, which Mark did with Nolan only, he met them when practicing flying in only his pajamas and fighting the first of the Mauler twins as he was stealing processors from the electronics store. Whenever I recommend this comic to friends, I always tell them that the series not only pays respect to the classic superhero comic, but it would definitely spoof them.
00:31:38
Speaker
The name of the teen team is a perfect example of the parody in my opinion, it's so ridiculous if you really think about it. 3. Speaking of the Flaxens, in the comics they actually captured Nolan, and then when he returned he explained that he was gone for 8 plus months, he implied it was even longer but he was trying to make Debbie worry less, and they used a power dampener and put him in a slave camp. Good lord.
00:32:04
Speaker
Showing him decide to go through the portal in the show was genius. You guys obviously picked up on the foreshadowing when he said not yours to conquer, but also showed how insanely powerful he is. Nolan is my evil superman. Fuck Homelander, I still love the boys.
00:32:22
Speaker
4. The final battle between Mark and Nolan. I remember it being brutal, but not this brutal. This is how you make a villain terrifying and a hero an icon. Mark never gave into his arguments and was willing to die for it. I haven't gotten here in my reread yet, but I swear the fight went by faster. I cannot wait to see what they do in the show going forward and how they diverge.
00:32:50
Speaker
But at the same time, I won't mind if they stick to the comics template the way that they have. I think I trust the people on the show to keep it interesting longer than The Walking Dead did. With animation, budgets aren't as big of a deal and filler episodes are less likely. I hope. Stay whelmed.
00:33:07
Speaker
PS, I just want to say just one word to tease my favorite arc from the comics just in case I'll embed it like a spoiler. And for the pandas who know that we block spoilers, he blocks it with the text saying, bring invincible into the MCU. Just kidding. But am I? Dinosaurs! Dinosaurs. Yeah, so that was that was the feedback that I was alluding to for Savage Land.
00:33:35
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, because, Muzzy, you'll probably be able to educate me a little bit better, but, um, Savage Land from the Marvel Comics, that was, um, basically, it originated out of the X-Men, correct? And that's where, like, I know the character of, like, Sauron, he was basically like a...
00:33:50
Speaker
super powered pterodactyl and stuff like that they came from this kind of like somewhat prehistoric almost like hollow earth kind of like realm right yeah it the savage land kind of harkens back to uh like
00:34:05
Speaker
Land that time forgot like those old B movies and stuff I don't know if in the comics it originates with X-Men, but they certainly Made it the iconic in the 90s and obviously on their cartoon That's where most people know it from but there there are characters that reside in the Savage Land and
00:34:29
Speaker
There's also a vibranium deposit there. During the Secret Invasion story arc, there's a large section that takes place there. Character for BBK, Devil Dinosaur is from the Savage Land. The Savage Land is in the middle of the Antarctic.
00:34:55
Speaker
Oh, okay. That's right. That's right. So that's where Blake is making the connection
00:35:00
Speaker
And then, Dinosaurs makes me feel like Blake shot his shot and got it right. Interesting, interesting. I'm totally down for that, like kind of that adventure movie, like late 1800s feel like if they go someplace like that, I'm down for whatever this show does. They've got me at this point, just do what you want.
00:35:29
Speaker
Yeah, if we get to spend more time with like Kaiju and giant dinosaurs, like the way they animated the Hail Mary and the penultimate episode of the season, I'm totally on board for huge bombastic and over-the-top stuff like that.
00:35:45
Speaker
uh... but it's as far as the rest of uh... erin sunny touches his comments go i mean coming off of artistus comments you you almost couldn't get feedback that's kind of more of the opposite side of the coin there uh... i i really like that stuff that he brought up about william because even in the research
00:36:02
Speaker
that I've done about the comic, that never really came up that much. Really nice to get that insight there. He provided a couple of panels that I wasn't able to include in this document, but basically what he's describing, William
00:36:20
Speaker
totally overcompensating and that kind of trope that we're all probably familiar with seeing, you know, a closeted character trying to go over the top with the machismo and the womanizing and whatnot. But yeah.
00:36:36
Speaker
I think it was really smart for them not to do that. And I think Aaron's 100% right in 2021. We've had enough depictions of closeted characters throughout the years. It's kind of nice to have one that's just out and that's not
00:36:55
Speaker
You know, it's it's not like a detriment to his character or he's you know, I don't know Do we ever see him picked on on it? It's normalizing it and I think that's really really cool for the show to do
00:37:10
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's super refreshing. It's like they don't even like hang any kind of lantern on it. Obviously he has the the relationship with Rick there. That's kind of a focal point for an episode, but it's yeah, it's just you said it perfectly. It's normalized. There's nothing feels off about it. It was really refreshing to see a character like that just to get to get to be themselves in it.
00:37:34
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, it just bodes really well for the creative voices behind this in addition to Robert Kirkman, the other people that are help bringing this to life. Yeah, I'm just going to add on a little to what Muzzy said, like being a Muslim Pakistani American, like I definitely enjoy the inclusiveness and when they diversify the characters that they use, but a lot of
00:37:59
Speaker
a lot of shows kind of like I hate i hate to word it this way but they like kind of throw the like political agenda on it and they they push it too much and force it into the story like i feel like a lot of the cw shows have done that and this show did a good job this is what he said like just making it normal and natural and this is how everyday life is and this is things that people deal with it's it's
00:38:25
Speaker
It's things that don't need to be overdone. And they did a good job of just like... Yeah, normalizing it. Very redundant, but I just... It's something that I'm always just gonna push whenever the opportunity presents itself.
00:38:41
Speaker
Yeah, of course, I'm right there with you. Regarding some of the other stuff he touched on, as far as the final battle between Mark and Nolan being a lot more drawn out than it was in the comics, I did listen to Robert Kirkman's most recent appearance on Kevin Smith's and Mark Bernard's Fat Man Beyond podcast, and he pretty much stated that was a fact.
00:39:07
Speaker
They definitely up the ante for that fight scene in pretty much every way and totally the right call. While I'm kind of on the subject of it, one of the other swerves they kind of did in terms of changing up what happened in the source material is apparently
00:39:30
Speaker
Um, in the early issues of the comic, Mark faced off against a, one of his high school teachers was actually abducting his fellow students and like turning them into living bombs, kind of like the extremists, um, from, from Iron Man and Marvel. But they, they just, you know, obviously given what we saw with DA Sinclair and the college there, they recognized that these were kind of similar beats and they made the decision to fast track that particular storyline.
Impactful Scenes and Modern Adaptation
00:39:58
Speaker
I think it was the right call. Yeah. The Iron Man 3 reference was what I made to Sinclair's experiments. Oh, yeah? Oh, sure. Yeah, because it was about like, well, not so much Sinclair's part of it, but how Cecil approached it, because he said, like, we grab people who, like, want to do something for the country one more time. So I think I mentioned that on the cast at one point, that I mentioned it to Fox as well.
00:40:26
Speaker
Okay talking about like I want to know what that emotional Conversation was like like what was the propaganda behind it of like? Like we saw the scene in Iron Man 3 Were Killian's like talking to the people and you see that their amputees are Sick or broken or whatever and they just they want to feel like they belong somewhere so they take this premise to get their limbs back but then and
00:40:52
Speaker
They're just super compliant after that. And I'm wondering how that went with Cecil too. Did he actually go to vet hospitals and was like, hey, you're going to have no control of your mind at all, but you want to donate your body to kill a couple superheroes? How did that play out? My interpretation was he didn't ask permission. Yeah, that's kind of where I'm leaning towards. He just kind of said that line so that Mark felt better about it.
00:41:23
Speaker
Well, I think he just was saying, well, they signed up for the military. This is what we're doing with them. Yeah, I'm imagining it's kind of one of those things like if you're an Oregon donor.
00:41:35
Speaker
There's a highway that stretches across the 93 days of summer, where worship isn't offered to the sun, but to the smoking tire, the S-curve, and the spin turn. And if you ride it, make sure you do it in a Dodge Charger, Challenger, or Durango. Because on this highway, the lines being blurred are the ones between drivers and demons. Welcome to Highway 93. Dodge is a registered trademark.
00:42:05
Speaker
And I think, yeah, that was one of the things we kind of discussed on that episode, too. Like, were they dead or on the verge of dying? And did they volunteer or were they made to do this? But either way, I don't have the answer right now. But as much as D. Ace and Claire makes my skin crawl, I do want to see more of the reanimates going forward. They were super creepy and super effective. And I hope we get to learn a little bit more about them. Yay.
00:42:32
Speaker
I do want to just bring up a meme I saw in regards to the final battle. I can't remember if it was in Stranded Panda Chat or if I saw it on Twitter, but it just said episode one.
00:42:47
Speaker
uh omni man trains trains mark and then episode eight omni man trains mark yep yep i i like that one there's another one that i like too where it's like uh they took they took one of the scenes from earlier on where like i think it was when i think it was after the the funeral for um
00:43:08
Speaker
for the, oh, I'm getting confused here. Anyway, it's, Mark's going up the stairs and Nolan asks him like, you want to get some dinner or something like that? He's like, how about Subway?
00:43:25
Speaker
That last fight scene scarred me so bad that like I don't look at those memes and laugh initially like maybe I'll give like a quick chuckle but then it reminds me of the scene itself and I'm just like oh god it's too dark like I can't laugh at these memes right now. That train scene might be like one of the most brutal things
00:43:46
Speaker
i've ever seen in superhero media yeah i never looked at any of the source material but like he's like uh sunny tetra said about it feeling long like i felt like it felt long like i was like this is still happening they're not we're in a different part now like we're continuing this
00:44:05
Speaker
So like, yeah, I can only imagine what it felt to like him to think it was over and then like more stuff happening because like from somebody who watched it with no idea what was happening, I was like, Oh God, this is still going on.
00:44:19
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. As much as I was just laughing at it, like I'm grimacing now and it's very much a nervous laugh. Have you ever seen, I think of John Wick first and foremost for whatever reason, but I guess like movies like The Raid come to mind too, but you see like action that's just
00:44:39
Speaker
so ridiculous and over the top that like that's the only physical reaction you really have is just be like my mind doesn't know how to process this so I'm gonna either like I'm gonna squeal or laugh or something like that. I trained the two arts that John Wick does so maybe I don't look the same. I'm actually breaking down what he's doing and wanting to practice it.
00:45:04
Speaker
Don't get on Zuhair's bad side. Well, thank you very much to Mr. Sonny Tetris, Aaron Deming. I really appreciate you always lending your thoughts and insights to the show and all the support you provide. You are invaluable.
00:45:25
Speaker
I just want to give him a shout out for all the wrong answers he throws out during trivia. Just misleading people. He is a necessary part of the ecosystem and I totally respect that. Oh Martha. Okay, well I think it is time for... Two more. Not our final piece of feedback.
00:46:05
Speaker
First, you guys are awesome. This show is awesome. Everything is awesome. Everything is cool when you're part of a team. Okay, now let's go. Sorry it's long. Overall, the show was so much fun. I had no idea that an animated series could be so visceral and make me so emotionally invested. You have not watched enough animated stuff. The voice acting was great and really brought the characters to life. Every single one nails it every time.
00:46:19
Speaker
the final piece of feedback that we had submitted beforehand.
00:46:33
Speaker
The sound effects were so impactful. Two biggest standouts. One, the scene where they bring the hammer down and the thuds of the birds hitting the ground. I'm cringing and getting goosebumps just remembering it. Two, the subway scene. The bone crunches and blood splattering. So visceral shutters.
00:46:53
Speaker
I like the way the show plays on superhero tropes which switches them up in a fun way. Amber could have been the typical human girlfriend that the hero has to keep a secret from and it's the source of their conflict and she's just the whiny damsel in distress. Instead, she's a strong independent badass in her own right, figures out who Invincible is on her own, and holds him to high expectations because of who she is, not who he is.
00:47:18
Speaker
That being said, I wish they hadn't gotten back together at the end. Would have been better if they hadn't gotten back together, but they still have their friend group. I would play in the awkward teenage stage where they have to navigate being friends with history. Awkward floridiness is always fun. Adam Eve is the best. I want to be Adam Eve when I grow up. I could go on for another page fawning over her, but I'll spare you. Last thought.
00:47:46
Speaker
I'm glad we're getting two more seasons, kind of don't want a live action movie, at least not for a while because I'm loving this show as is so much. There's still a lot of bias against animated content, I would be afraid that people would value the movie over the show and that would be such a disservice because the show was so good in its own right. But if we do get the live action, my wild fan cast is Jensen Echols for OmniMan.
00:48:13
Speaker
Hmm I could see him with the mustache Can he grow a stash if he trains enough because the mustache is what gives you your pie powers? Well, he's gonna be popping up on the boys season 3 as a soldier boy, so that's right The thirst squad has reported on that before Yeah, I love how she held back her thirst on out of me I was ready to read that
00:48:46
Speaker
Well, I have to say, I agree with everything Jess said, especially her point that she kind of wished that Amber and Mark hadn't gotten back together. That was the one place where I felt like the show stumbled a little bit. Agreed. Agreed.
00:49:04
Speaker
The other thing that she pointed out that I feel like we kind of dropped the ball on, as much as we talked about the voice acting, we've talked about the animation. She is 100% right about the sound effects and that scene that she brings up about the birds hitting the ground after the hammer hit.
00:49:24
Speaker
Totally, totally so effective. But then she brought up the subway, but the one that stood out to me, I mean, the entire scene is so effective, but when Nolan is just pummeling into Mark's face, like you can really hear the impact that's making when the teeth go flying and... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's as effective as the animation is and as brutal the gore is, it would not be anywhere near as effective if it wasn't for.
00:49:54
Speaker
the sound effects and the Foley artist. And then we haven't really talked about the music too much, I'll be honest. Beat for beat, the music didn't stand out to me too, too much, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it just kind of feeds into the moment and it doesn't need to stand out that much. But I do know that they used a couple of Cage the Elephant songs, which were pretty cool. I haven't heard Cage the Elephant in a while and they were definitely fitting for those sequences.
00:50:24
Speaker
You know, I did not catch any of the music in this but the name Cage the Elephant brings me back to like Borderlands 2. Oh yeah, there you go. So that's how old I am because I was working a full-time job well out of college for that.
00:50:43
Speaker
Borderlands 2, man. That's one of the greatest games of all time. Such a good game. Such a good game. Yeah. But that's a different cast. That's not what the cast is. As you heard, do you have anything you wanted to say about the sound effects or the music or any of the rest of Jess's feedback?
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah, the sound effects were obviously phenomenal. Like as I was reading her feedback, I was thinking of when Mark was trying to save the grandma from the alien invasion and you hear like, you know, like the arm get left behind and the splats and like every time there was something that was like intestine related and like they had the weird like slushy sound like
00:51:25
Speaker
Yeah Yeah, like I'm I guess I'm surprised we didn't talk about it as much as I thought we did I get is just one of those things that was put in there so seamlessly That it really enhanced The scene and what was happening on screen Yeah, just to a very satisfying effect and in regards to the music like I feel like The music that was used
00:51:53
Speaker
like from artists was very fitting for the scene but it was nothing that I would like want to go find the soundtrack for and play yeah it was appropriate for the tone that they were trying to depict but nothing that I don't know if it's like out of taste or preference or whatnot that it's not something that I would just want to like listen back on hmm
Soundtrack and Emotional Experience
00:52:14
Speaker
It wasn't feedback that I collected, but I know in the Stranded Panda chat, forgive me if I butcher your last name, Nick, but I want to say it's Nick Huckleack? I'm just guessing. I've seen his name several times, but I'm not exactly sure how to pronounce that.
00:52:30
Speaker
he actually shared a little snippet that he was listening to the Invincible soundtrack on Spotify, so he's really enjoying it. I sent him an invitation to submit some feedback, but he was still working on finishing the series, so hopefully he continued to enjoy it all the way up through the end. I have to imagine if he liked it enough to seek out the soundtrack, he was probably pretty satisfied, but maybe we can get his thoughts at a later time, but anyway.
00:52:59
Speaker
Yeah, I really do want to thank Jess for being such an avid supporter of the show. She's a great panda and always supports me in my art and everything like that. So, appreciate you Jess and thanks for giving your thoughts.
00:53:16
Speaker
Now, Zuhara, you did have some feedback that was submitted to you directly. Yes, my friend from college has been listening in and definitely had been like watching how much she's been talking on Facebook about it. So I messaged her like right before it's like, Hey, do you have anything that you want to put in?
00:53:35
Speaker
So Eric Donaldson says Overall it was more than a pleasant surprise. I went into it with the sure it looks good attitude and easily became a part of my Friday morning routine The story flowed so smoothly and the casting was a total chef's kiss Plus the fact that mark was levitating around the house like Nolan did before he took off serves me to kind of a foreshadow that mark is well on his way to taking a
00:54:02
Speaker
way to taking his come up or even surpass his dad in some sort of way, which is good because he's got to stop waking up in hospital beds.
Narrative and Speculative Future of Invincible
00:54:12
Speaker
That's fair. The foreshadowing point was interesting, like the similarities because he did look up to his dad for so long and even when the fight between the two of them started, like he wasn't even fighting him because of him killing immortal in front of him. It was because he thought that he was like brain controlled or something.
00:54:34
Speaker
Yeah. So there's there's a strong relationship that he has with his father. He just can't let go. And now, like, you see how much his mannerisms have actually affected his personality. Yeah. And I think that through line is one of the reasons that the the story
00:54:53
Speaker
affects me as much as it did and I enjoyed it as thoroughly as I did, like a little bit snippet into my personal life. I'm a junior. I was born on the same day as my dad. I have the same birthday as my dad. So there's always been that pressure and nothing against my dad. He's a wonderful guy and he's never
00:55:13
Speaker
been overt about or anything like that. But just being a junior and sharing a name and having that connection, I very much related to Mark, especially in that first episode when he was like, I want to be just like you.
00:55:27
Speaker
Man where he comes full circle there at the at the end. It's it is really powerful stuff. So thank you Eric for you know Bringing you that up. It definitely was we talked about the relationships and the action and the gore and everything like that But at the end of the day, it is very much a father and son story and some of the best ones out there, you know, I'm Star Wars obviously, but Indiana Jones as well has some some really great stuff in that regard and invincible is right up there with it. So
00:55:56
Speaker
Thanks, Erica. Oh, Erica, excuse me. I heard Eric. My bad. Sorry, Erica.
00:56:04
Speaker
I don't know that I have anything to add. I do agree. I agree with Jay Scottie's point about the emotional weight of this. You could not do this show without the emotional weight. If they had missed that, the gore wouldn't have worked. The jokes wouldn't have worked. Because at the end of it, if all it was is gory, that's not enough to keep people's attention.
00:56:32
Speaker
And plenty plenty of pieces of media have shown that but the storyline on this works so well and like you said all the credit to Kirkman and the team on this show because Like these characters you want to see what happens to him even Nolan who you know by the end you kind of hate and
00:56:54
Speaker
Like, like when he flies away, it's like, well, where's he going? What's this? You know, and like, if we don't find out, that would be like the worst. I'm sure we will, though. Oh, I mean, we got it. Yeah. At some at some point, there's going to be a Viltromite invasion. There's got to be. So I just want to see an episode dedicated to. The Viltromites interacting with Omni Man of how dare you leave your post and how that conversation goes.
00:57:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's gotta be some fallout. Well, and I'm curious like how, how strong of a Viltromite is Nolan? Good question. We gonna find out.
00:57:37
Speaker
Like, what if Nolan's just a punk? I don't think that's going to be the case. But yeah. Zuhair, did Erica have more feedback? Or is this kind of seems like a natural opportunity for us to pivot into our predictions for future seasons? Pivot away. But I don't want to cut Erica off. Nope, that was it. Oh, OK, cool. Well, in terms of expectations for season two, I don't think
00:58:08
Speaker
There's a ton that I can speculate on other than, you know, we just mentioned Nolan. I definitely hope that we, I think Zuhar, you specifically said if we got like one kind of like bottle episode showing where Nolan's at and what he's been doing during this time, like that would be pretty cool. I would be, otherwise I would be kind of okay if we took a little bit of a break for him and let, you know, Mark exist on his own and face some other challenges outside of that.
00:58:36
Speaker
Coalitions of planets got dropped definitely want to see that come back The Doctor with the the seismic gloves Who I who I very much thought passed away. I upon doing a rewatch I just I kind of forgot how much I really enjoyed just that that mad scientist trope and how kooky he was and how how inventive some of the the action was there with him and
00:59:03
Speaker
Bouncing around with those gloves, so I'd be excited to see him as well as Michael Dorn's Battle Beast and then Muzzy I know one of your favorites, but I certainly hope we didn't get Damien dark blood back Towards the end half of this first season, but hopefully he comes back Yeah, you know I think If I had to guess we're gonna get
00:59:30
Speaker
maybe a couple of episodes spent on the face huggers from Mars. Oh, right. The sequids. Yeah. Sequids. Thank you. Um, and then I think, I think we will get like snippets of, or a bottle episode of goings on in space, whether that's Nolan or coalition of planets or those things combined. Um,
00:59:58
Speaker
What, what I'm mostly excited for is what the other episodes are going to be. I do think you're right that it'll be. So season one was Nolan helping Mark, uh, become a hero. I think this is going to be Mark figuring out what that means now. And I think that'll be really interesting. Certainly. Certainly. Did you hear?
01:00:30
Speaker
Well, you caught me mid-yawning. Excuse me. How dare you? Are we boring you, sir? No, I'm just like, I'm filling in my lungs for this next bit of talking that I'm about to do. I'm kidding. God, yawning is a very multipurpose thing. Okay. Sticking with it. It's very contagious as well, so watch yourself, okay?
01:00:49
Speaker
Well it's so that you can build up for your next one, duh. Setting you up for yours. But speaking of set up, you did kind of say the couple things that I was really looking forward to. I do want to see this coalition and what the extent of that is, what kind of other odd characters we see from different planets.
01:01:09
Speaker
I do want to see Omni-Man interacting with the Viltromites and see what his power level is like. I kind of want to see him pick a fight with Battle Beast. I know Muzzy would love to see that as well, to see how they relate in power level now that we see what Omni-Man's relation to Invincible is in regards to power level. Sure.
01:01:32
Speaker
And I'm just a huge fan of Jason manzuca. So like, I want to see more of her explode just for that because he's just, he over exaggerates everything and is hilarious. And I love it. But when like shit gets real, like he nails the tone that depicts that. And especially with him dealing with a younger version of himself. Uh, I feel like we're going to be getting a lot of his past trauma, which could be like really dark or really funny. And I can't wait to find out where that goes.
01:02:02
Speaker
Yeah, that's a great call out. We haven't talked about them too much, but the new Guardians of the Globe are definitely a strong part of the series, and I'll definitely look forward to seeing them continue to come into their own and function as a team, but I have to imagine there will be some interpersonal conflicts there as well. They just seem like a...
01:02:28
Speaker
a volatile bunch, Rex explode not being the least of those. So. I'm kind of going to see like what immortal coming back is going to mean for that team too. Cause if Omni man is not there right away, like he's going to need some type of purpose at that point. And like, yeah, I could see this conflict of him trying to take over the team when it's not his place or how he's going to deal with that.
01:02:55
Speaker
I have to imagine he has history with Black Sampson given the fact that we knew Black Sampson was a former guardian of the globe and just given, you know, Immortals' longevity. I mean, I think that's kind of a given that they've served together before for lack of a better way of describing it. So I wonder if they got along or if, like you said, we've already saw Rex and Black Sampson butt heads for leadership. I could definitely see something similar happen.
01:03:24
Speaker
I just want to know 100% for sure if invincible was Abraham Lincoln. You mean immortal. Yeah. Or yes, sorry. Very immortal. It's funny. I'm actually reading the, the Wiki post for right now when it says the immortal, the millennial old leader of the guardians who was once a barbarian before he was exposed to cosmic anomaly. He went on to fight the crusades and become Abraham Lincoln. Hell yeah. Very cool. So.
01:03:53
Speaker
And I don't think that's a spoiler because they do show it Yeah, no, I was I was convinced when we were casting. Yeah, just looking at it frame by frame I think they very much wanted that to be teleka or broadcast. Yeah, just imagine like this huge funeral for Abe Lincoln And he's just like holding his breath pretending to be dead and just like digging out of the ground Late at night when everyone's gone Yeah, yeah
01:04:22
Speaker
Again, yeah, just that, that's one thing I'll bring up too. I mentioned it on that particular episode when we hit it, but when Immortal had his resurrection, we got that flashback that was a different animation style. That's one thing I would certainly be open to is, I always, I love it when, that's the great thing about animation, you're not beholden to any particular style per se. I mean, you obviously want some,
01:04:47
Speaker
continuity and some uniformity in terms of the character designs and whatnot. But I would be totally on board if they decided to go balls to the wall and look into some different dimensions and stuff like that. We saw all the flaxons. I'd be completely open to more Lovecraftian and
01:05:06
Speaker
just just out there. Yeah, so I'm with you like, bring in like, a different art style, a little bit like what they did with Dr. Strange in his movie, like, perfect. Yeah, like, like if they go trippy, like, when they're going to like these different worlds and stuff. Yeah, all for it. Yeah. Like you said, that's the great thing about animation. Mm hmm.
01:05:34
Speaker
Yeah, well, hopefully it's not terribly, too terribly long before we have to wait to see this.
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
01:05:41
Speaker
I know animation does take some time, especially when it's as high quality as this is, but, you know, given the success of this first season and the buzz around it and, you know...
01:05:56
Speaker
Just I will say we kind of talked about at the beginning when we started doing this podcast, but now that we're kind of coming out on the other side of the pandemic, I will say one of the silver linings of the pandemic, I think, is it really forced the industry to kind of reevaluate and see the value in animation. And I hope that continues and that we'll just continue to see a new golden age of animation, especially for this podcast, not being, you know,
01:06:24
Speaker
self-serving there in any way, shape, or form. I don't know. All right, well, gentlemen, unless you have any final thoughts you want to say about Invincible, I think that's going to bring this episode of Animation to Liberation to a close. It's been an absolute pleasure to cover such a stellar series. And thank you again to all the listeners for all your support and providing your feedback.
01:06:53
Speaker
I think we had a really great conversation today. And I want to give you more opportunities to be a part of it. So if you do have feedback, I mentioned the Stranded Panda chat quite a bit. If you are part of that community, tag any one of us at any time. We're always happy to have conversations with you. And then if you want to send feedback directly to the podcast, you can do that to animationdeliberationpodcast.gmail.com. Do you gentlemen have anything to plug? No.
01:07:23
Speaker
check out trivia Wednesday nights stranded Panda or twitch.tv slash stranded Panda TV on Wednesday nights 730 Central that's it that's it and then
01:07:36
Speaker
Yeah, well, as I mentioned at the time of this recording, we're gonna be doing MODOK's first live episode, but that Twitch channel, twitch.tv slash strandedpanda.tv always has a lot of great live stuff going on. So subscribe to that, set your alerts to it, and see all the great things we're doing there. And I will say, stay tuned, that's T-O-O-N-E-D. Stay woned.
01:08:03
Speaker
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Speaker
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01:08:33
Speaker
There's a highway that stretches across the 93 days of summer, where worship isn't offered to the sun, but to the smoking tire, the S-curve, and the spin turn. And if you ride it, make sure you do it in a Dodge Charger, Challenger, or Durango. Because on this highway, the lines being blurred are the ones between drivers and demons. Welcome to Highway 93. Dodge is a registered trademark.