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Asian Heritage Month: Family, Culture and Finding Your Own Way
18 Plays1 month ago
This week, in honour of Asian Heritage Month, Kai is joined by Finn Liu, a fellow TEDx speaker whose story left a lasting impression when they first shared a stage.
In this conversation, Finn reflects on his TEDx experience and the impact of representation - especially in spaces where he hadn’t often seen himself reflected before. He shares his journey of exploring gender and identity within the context of his Chinese Canadian upbringing and the cultural and generational dynamics that have shaped how he understands himself.
Kai and Finn also talk about the role of family, the challenge of bridging different worldviews, and the small, sometimes unexpected moments that open the door to connection. Ultimately, they reflect on belonging, identity, and the ongoing process of honouring both where we come from and who we’re becoming.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello folks, this is Gender in Focus, a podcast exploring how to create a more inclusive world for trans and non-binary people. I'm your host, Kai Scott, and I use the pronouns he and him.
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm the president of Trans Focus Consulting.
Podcast Goals & Themes
00:00:18
Speaker
Each week I dive into real stories and expert advice, offering practical tips and actionable takeaways to help you lead with kindness, confidence, and heart.
00:00:28
Speaker
Tune in to discover how you can make a positive difference. It's just a conversation away.
Guest Introduction: Finn Leo
00:00:36
Speaker
In today's episode, I'm joined by a very special guest, Finn Leo, a fellow TEDxer. We survived to tell the tale, so we'll dive a little bit into that. But we're here to talk mostly about Finn's experiences as a transgender Chinese Canadian, especially important as we celebrate Asian Heritage Month.
Exploring Authenticity & Belonging
00:00:56
Speaker
We're going to explore the many layers of authenticity, belonging, and understanding. Welcome, Finn, to the pod. It's really good to reconnect with you here today. Would you just please introduce yourself to the audience?
00:01:09
Speaker
Yeah, of course. It's great to see you again as well. So my name is Finn. I'm currently a first-year student at the University of Pennsylvania. um I did TEDx with Kai like two years back now. It feels like it's It was yesterday, but also forever, you know?
00:01:26
Speaker
um And right now I'm studying political science and criminology with the hopes of attending law school in the future. um In my high school years, I spent a lot of my time doing a lot of volunteering, exploring a lot of personal passions and interests.
00:01:40
Speaker
But I also, I guess a big part of my identity is that I happen to be transgender and also Chinese. So I thought that that was an intersecting aspect of my identity that I wanted to speak about, which is why I eventually went on TEDx.
00:01:52
Speaker
But I'm really happy to to speak here today. Oh, that's amazing. And I'm so glad you did
Language & Identity
00:01:58
Speaker
that, too. It was so important, the themes that you unpacked, even in a very short window. I mean, we're packing in you know so much into 10 minutes. It's kind of incredible.
00:02:08
Speaker
um And I just thought it was really poignant. And not that we're going to only talk about your TEDx, but I think it's a good place to start. ah It's just this really powerful concept or...
00:02:19
Speaker
ah even imagery that you used by referencing the language. And it's the concept of kwa, which means to leap. And so I thought if you could start with that, just explaining that a little bit more and you know why you framed or used some of your framing around that concept, which I thought was so beautiful.
00:02:40
Speaker
Yeah, of course. I'm surprised that 16-year-old me was able to put that together. But very impressed. Thank you. But I think like a big part of my brainstorming when it came to writing that TED talk was thinking about areas about my identity that I felt like were disconnected. And a big part of that was language, because even though I speak Mandarin fluently because I grew up speaking it with my parents.
00:03:04
Speaker
there were definitely terms, vocabulary and things that were difficult to talk about. So I was wondering how Mandarin Chinese in of itself speaks on identity. And a part of that is looking at the literal word for transgender in Mandarin, which is kua xing bia, which literally means like crossing or to leap between gender.
00:03:26
Speaker
And I thought that that was interesting because like it's When I first heard it, it sounded really like like strong, right? It sounded like it's insane, like you're taking a leap. like that's That's pretty cool.
00:03:37
Speaker
But I mean, a lot of like older Chinese generations and also a lot of Chinese mainstream media, like still in the modern day, like do not look very favorably upon queer and BIPOC individuals.
00:03:50
Speaker
So... I was thinking of like why if language in of itself gives this like feeling of strength, why we still feel disconnected, even though the identity it in itself is like talking about connection, or at least that's just how I interpreted it.
Visibility & Representation
00:04:05
Speaker
So I really wanted to bring light onto that as like a starting point, I guess, for conversation.
00:04:10
Speaker
Oh yeah, absolutely. And it makes sense to start with language because there's a familiarity, ah there's the being able to access that and to be able to reconceptualize it, to shift the way that from one understanding to another ah by starting with language. And I thought that was so beautiful.
00:04:28
Speaker
But then also self-empowerment piece, the self-determination aspect of it ah and and connecting it to an experience that, you know, either your parents or you know people in your family would have had of going to ah what is not necessarily kind of a new place, especially when it comes to being trans, ah but certainly the kind of going into the unknown and not knowing what's on the other end, but still excited, still determined to go and take that step, ah which takes a lot of effort, and but it's still so ah worth the journey.
00:05:02
Speaker
No, for sure. That's why i thought it was interesting, too, because like I thought of a connection between, i guess, the word for trans and Mandarin with like, you know, like immigration or like other things that my parents generation, a lot people within no generation i have taken, you know, in their own leaps of faith, which I thought connected in some ways. So maybe there can be like a shared understanding if we kind of share those struggles, you know.
00:05:25
Speaker
there's oftentimes I try to talk about empathy bridges, right? So sometimes people really can't connect to trans and non-binary experiences. ah But if you start to break things down in terms of things that they can relate to,
00:05:39
Speaker
and draw parallels, they can often be kind of take that ah extra leap, a qua of their own in understanding and be able to get to it. But it does take breaking those things down. and And certainly I can appreciate that, you know, you've had to have those conversations and and help people along on that.
00:05:59
Speaker
And also on the stage with a broader audience to help them with that understanding. yeah That was nice, too, because like, I remember um later in the year, or like, I think it was actually just last year, I was at a Model UN conference.
00:06:13
Speaker
And like, someone, like pointed me out and like, start up a conversation with me and told me that like, she actually watched my talk with her mom. And it helped them understand, it helped her mother understand more about like queer identity.
00:06:26
Speaker
So like, I don't know, it's just like those little moments that, I mean, i obviously I rarely have them, but like whenever I have, it just made me remember how valuable it was to share everything. And I really like that. makes me feel really like happy and joyous inside, you know?
00:06:39
Speaker
Oh, yeah. And it's so powerful to, you know, take that step of being really visible, because of course, being on a TEDx stage is a degree of hyper visibility. Yeah, everyone's looking you.
00:06:53
Speaker
the The thousand people in the audience, and then later on, online as well. And so i don't know if you want to share a little bit about, you know, that that visibility aspect um and you making that choice, ah seeing as there's a tremendous value and and importance in, you know, talking about yourself, like talking and seeing so that others who have that experience can also perhaps make that decision for themselves in terms of stepping up, and maybe not on a TEDx stage, but certainly within their own lives.
00:07:26
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So I feel like when I was giving my talk, I really wanted it to be more of just like a call to witness because I feel like I never really saw people looking like me growing up on media, especially not someone who's like queer and also Asian, which I think is something that you just rarely see in general.
00:07:42
Speaker
So I really wanted to like put myself out there, even though it was definitely scary because I'd been out for like around almost two years at that point, but I just really wanted to make a statement. um I wanted other youth, especially, to be at least more comfortable in seeing themselves on screen, right? Because I was thinking, like, even though it is very difficult to, you know, bridge generational perspectives and talk to your parents, come out, like, go through all those barriers, I thought it was really valuable that someone at least was able to see themselves and see that they're represented, regardless of where that might be. And it just happened that I got the opportunity and the privilege to speak on the TEDx stage, which I thought was
00:08:18
Speaker
you know, like probably one of the bigger stages that I could have been visible on. So I thought that was great. I think at its core, it was really just about visibility and at least making someone comfortable in their own skin if they, you know, before hasn't seen anyone like them on screen.
00:08:33
Speaker
Oh, absolutely.
Navigating Cultural Identity
00:08:34
Speaker
It's just opening that door for folks um to consider that, to to celebrate it, to be like, oh, finally, somebody is speaking ah the various tensions and difficulties or even the exciting things that I um uniquely experience at those intersections.
00:08:51
Speaker
Um, yeah, having not frequently or perhaps even ever seen that, uh, in such a big way. And so, and also you know, I appreciate you doing that too. Cause sometimes people are like, we should do this. And then, you know, nobody steps up, which I understand. almost backed out of the talk as well. I'll be real. Like when I was applying for it, like it was definitely a last minute decision. Cause I just thought, why not at the end of it all? Yeah.
00:09:17
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, ah it's so true. ah Because, you know, there there are costs to visibility that, you know, oftentimes are invisible, ironically enough. um But, you know, those are so important that when people do muster up that courage to speak so openly about it And I would say particularly because of what you were talking about, um and there's many um layers and themes to it, ah but this, we we don't talk about these issues, right?
00:09:47
Speaker
These are kind of personal matters that maybe you can speak to yourself about, but really we shouldn't do say to others ah because really we're focused, what you talked a lot about was success, like personal success, achievement.
00:10:00
Speaker
And so, yeah, how how are you how do you navigate that aspect? Yeah, for sure. I think like really it came down to reflecting on what I personally wanted.
00:10:12
Speaker
I know that I'm like one of those people that also just did want to achieve things and did want to like exercise my passions as much as possible.
00:10:23
Speaker
So maybe I'm like a little bit of a, not the best example here, but I think for me, it was about achieving the goals that I really wanted it in the future, right? So regardless of whether that was trying to get into a good college, whether that was like trying to get a little bit better at playing my guitar.
00:10:39
Speaker
It was one of those things that I wanted to value myself in and without, you know, really considering what the general expectation from my culture or my parents look like. I think once you break away from that expectation and really reflect deeply on what your personal goals and ambitions are, I think that's when you can become like a whole lot happier with where you are and also where you can see yourself being in the future.
00:11:01
Speaker
And in a way that allows you to also lean into fullness of who you are, yeah including embracing your your heritage and who you are you know culturally.
00:11:13
Speaker
ah ah Sometimes they're almost pitted against each other. um yeah in a way that transgender leads somebody away from being Asian. or But actually being trans or being ah able to fully embody that then allows you to embrace everything.
00:11:31
Speaker
yeah But it takes, I'm sure, a few steps to to get to that. But um no yeah, I don't know if you have some stories or experiences around that. Yeah, yeah. So I definitely agree. I do feel like Because Asian identity revolves a lot around community, at least in the Chinese community, it revolves a lot around like, you know, valuing what your family thinks, valuing what your grandparents thinks, what your family thinks, and what your greater, wider community thinks. So it's and a lot to like, bear as an individual, right? And this can be reflected in like,
00:12:03
Speaker
politics or like Chinese society right now, where a lot of young people just don't want to marry because they don't want to marry and have the burden of like, you know, being responsible i looked at by their spouse's family. but So I definitely felt a lot of that when I was coming out, especially because I felt like I was taking too big of a leap to value my individualism over my community, which I think was probably one of my biggest struggles is considering like,
00:12:29
Speaker
the impact that me coming out or me having this label and identity, like the impact that it would bring onto my family over the impact that I would feel had I not felt comfortable in my own skin, had I not come out and just like been able to express myself.
00:12:44
Speaker
So I think it was like a balance of those two things where it's, First, like recognizing your parents' perspective, recognizing like what your community means to and vice versa, but also being able to value yourself and put yourself first on things that I thought mattered most, which for me definitely was my identity at the time.
00:13:02
Speaker
yeah Yeah, absolutely. And it it it makes sense that you're trying to balance all these things and respect yourself, respect your family, your culture, ah but that you know at some point their push does come to shove and and you're having to make those tough choices.
00:13:18
Speaker
um And you know there is a cost to them as well. Of course, there's also, I'm sure, many kind of celebratory moments or poignant moments where- you're surprised maybe even.
00:13:31
Speaker
um do you have any stories or examples of that where you were maybe pleasantly surprised? I feel like for the most part, thankfully, I was pretty pleasantly surprised, although I felt like it was more neutrality than like very like very terrible or like, you know, very positive.
00:13:50
Speaker
Because for me, like coming out to my parents, for example, it was like very much of a sit down conversation instead of like a big blown up argument or like whatever celebratory TikToks I've watched with people coming out to their family and before, which I've watched plenty. mom And it was honestly, it was kind of nice too, because although there were definitely areas where we disagreed with, there are certain points of view that are still difficult to get across for sure. And I think that's something that you, you know, grow with over time and communicate with your family and with
00:14:22
Speaker
community and peers over time. um There were things that we were able to like partially agree on things like, you know, being more socially expressive with like my male gender, being able to adopt my chosen name into my school records.
00:14:35
Speaker
Those sort of things were definitely surprises that I didn't really think my parents will be totally okay with and i did think that a part of it was thanks to like some i guess cultural norms because like for example my mom also has short hair and then she i guess thought that i was a lesbian because like i maybe was expressing myself more masked in a more masculine sense because like i like girls which wasn't necessarily the i mean wasn't entirely necessarily the case right but it's one of those things where it's like
00:15:06
Speaker
there are certain areas of expression that they didn't see as like quote unquote queer because it was, it's pretty normalized in like Chinese society. We're walking up the street and you see like women with short hair or like you see people like, you know, guys in the summer are wearing like tanks, like crops because like crop tops because like it's hot, right? I think those are like things that,
00:15:27
Speaker
If we think of them in the West, we don't really consider those as very normal. But going back home to China this summer, I realized that a lot of those gender expectations that we have here in the West may not entirely reflect back at home.
00:15:39
Speaker
So it was definitely one of those things where even if at the time they couldn't really completely accept my trans identity, they at least accepted those areas of expression that I felt were very important to me, especially as someone who just newly came out and want to like express myself more to my friends at school and my teachers and my like other communities as to who I am.
00:16:00
Speaker
Wow. that's That's really good that there was space ah given some of those maybe different cultural expectations and not related to dress or expressing oneself, whether hairstyle or clothing or whatnot.
00:16:14
Speaker
And that's so fascinating that there was that spaciousness and that you didn't have to struggle over that area. and Because certainly on my end, definitely clothes was a tension point growing up.
00:16:26
Speaker
And so good that you didn't have to do on there. But then there was a little bit more neutral when it came to identity, which is more of an internal matter and is not maybe as outwardly um manifest. And so it can show up in different ways that perhaps it's harder to understand or or kind of accept.
00:16:47
Speaker
ah But you're right that it does take time too, right? And just for people to get used to it and also to realize you're still the same person even if things are changing. Yeah.
00:16:57
Speaker
Yeah. yeah So it certainly ah can take some some time. yeah. I am curious too, i mean, there's you know is there some of the the dynamics and the nuances, but um ah ah and perhaps even challenges, ah but i'm I'm wondering what brings you cultural joy.
00:17:16
Speaker
So if it's really to food, tradition, customs, anything ah you know in terms of your heritage, and but but maybe it has special meaning to you, and significant but especially at significant moments in your life.
00:17:30
Speaker
Of course, I'm a big food person. If you ask any of my friends, I'm always like snacking. And I guess like that's one of those things that really ties me to my family and my culture as well. Like I know that one of the moments that I really appreciated was making what's called zhongzi, which are zhongzi, which are these like glutinous rice.
00:17:49
Speaker
Mm-hmm. things that are wrapped with like, my family uses bamboo leaves and then it's steamed and it has like dates and beans and other things inside. And it's traditionally eaten around the Dragon Boat Festival, which is like, i think the fifth month on the Lunar calendar.
00:18:04
Speaker
It's one of the celebrations that you see around the time of like the Spring Festival and Chinese New Year as well. So I think it was one of those things where it's like we have a shared, you know, a shared interest, something that we can all enjoy.
00:18:16
Speaker
but I think the biggest part of food and that connection to my culture is the fact that it allows you to sit down but with your family. It's usually what brought me to have conversations with my family because When I was in high school, for example, I was really busy with everything, school especially. So usually the only time I got to talk to my family was at dinner time.
00:18:36
Speaker
So I think back to like a lot of those cultural connections and it really came down to like celebrations and especially around the food that we had during those celebratory events.
00:18:48
Speaker
Oh, that's so beautiful. i really like that because you're right. It's in the kind of low pressure. Let's just talk human to human, ah you know, and, and maybe even very simply, but that the shared thing of food is what draws everybody around the table. yeah And then that allows that conversation to unfold.
00:19:08
Speaker
And, you know, it's not going to happen at one time. It's multiple conversations with little pieces added into the mix and, know, Yeah, I can relate to that too um in terms of with my family, it took a while for them to to understand and we committed to having regular dinners together to get to know each other better. And that really made a huge difference ah to have those conversations over time.
00:19:38
Speaker
So I can see how that gave tremendous value and importance. Yeah, and it's like, I don't know, it's just comforting to also be like, maybe like making food or something that you get hands on with something that like, just brings the family together as casual is like warm and nice, right?
00:19:52
Speaker
It's one of those moments where you feel more comfortable to talk at all or even if it's like something small. yeah ah Yeah, absolutely. And it is the simple things at the end of the day, which I know we're talking about very big topics often when it comes to trans and non-binary folks, but as much as people can kind of boil it down to the simpler moments, those are where really there's a lot of power and ability to come together and to see each other ah more directly.
00:20:22
Speaker
ah So that that's really kind of beautiful and I love to hear that. Now, um what are some lessons that you wish allies of trans ah folks would know or even allies in Asian communities would know or be able to better show up for folks who who are trans and or Asian?
Intersectionality in the Trans Community
00:20:45
Speaker
Yeah, I feel like a big thing that... I hope more trans advocates or even members of the trans community see more is that we're not a monolith, right? Like there's a lot of other intersection, like intersecting identities and a lot of other backgrounds and experiences that also impact how we experience like, you know, transness, gender coming out, all of those things.
00:21:07
Speaker
Because I feel like one of the things that I heard very commonly when I expressed to like some friends or like allies and peers that like perhaps my family wasn't and still isn't the most accepting, even though like they're okay with certain, you know, areas of expression from me.
00:21:21
Speaker
People are always just like, oh, but you can always just cut them out. Like you can always like do that, which I think, It's like a very Western perspective because I remember like watching cartoons growing up where like once you're 18, you leave the house and that's it, right? like Your parents are glad to get you like out of the house and like that you're glad to leave.
00:21:38
Speaker
But I feel like you don't realize that with the Asian community, there's just so much like familial importance and there's so much community that comes from your family. So those little things like that that are very important to your identity and your cultural identity intersect with how you approach coming out, for example, or how you approach like safety or how you approach expression.
00:22:00
Speaker
So I think trans allies and to realize that we're not really all the same at all. And that oftentimes you can't just advocate for like individual liberties of the trans community and instead to like recognize specific minorities and the differences that we share.
00:22:16
Speaker
And like, you know, in some ways how we can connect using those differences as well. Well, that's so important. I'm so glad you mentioned that because oftentimes ah folks approach coming out as this binary, yeah which it isn't.
00:22:32
Speaker
It is very much a spectrum with so many different options available to folks. And just appreciating that everybody has their own decision-making around coming out and that it might look very different from one's own personal coming out or how, if they're an ally, they think they would handle it.
00:22:51
Speaker
And this individual, you know, I'm an island and we'll go forth and boldly chart my own course. Maybe that works for some, although i would even doubt that for...
00:23:03
Speaker
for for folks here in the West. But certainly being so interconnected with family and culture and even extended family and society, that's just, it's not something you can sever. and Yeah, it's definitely not easy. Yeah.
00:23:21
Speaker
Yeah. And we we see that even in the research that we do at TransFocus that we've started to undertake intersectional analysis and we find that there are unique issues that need to be identified, number one, and addressed directly.
00:23:36
Speaker
ah So, one example of that was, um you know, in in a university setting, ah what email, what mail goes home and what name is used and needing flexibility around, you know, chosen name versus legal name.
00:23:50
Speaker
And so, legal name might be chosen for going home ah because maybe folks aren't out yet or not fully out or have a different type of outness. And so needing that flexibility around which names go where is really important you know thing to introduce ah for everybody's choice and ability to to navigate those those nuances.
00:24:16
Speaker
Yeah, and I feel like name is another one of those things where from an outside perspective, it just seems so small, right? Like you can just you can just switch in between if you're trying to be stealthy. But it's one of those things that like combined with everything else that you're that are really going through your mind on like a day-to-day basis, like an everyday basis, it becomes very difficult.
00:24:36
Speaker
And like, I think it's one of those things when it comes to name that I actually appreciate with my Chinese identity because my legal name is my Chinese name and I never use that. I use an English name. So it's like when it came to changing my name on my transcripts, it's technically like my nickname or like, you know, my non-legal name. So there is that like lack of legal barrier that I have to go through or that I want to go through in terms of like changing documents with it because I could go by my English name while also still having like my Chinese name, which is pretty gender neutral, which I like a lot. So it's one of those things that I think it's quite nice to appreciate when you come from an immigrant family like mine.
00:25:15
Speaker
Oh, that's that's so interesting that those kind of the dynamics between chosen and legal first name and that, you know, essentially that stay, the legal name stayed, ah but then there's the changing of the the English name.
00:25:29
Speaker
And i mean, that's why I've been, you know, in in working with systems on with organizations, basically, yes, it helps trans and non-binary folks for whom they might be changing their legal first name, but it makes sense to have two first name fields ah for variety of different reasons, um some of which we're we're talking about here, ah but then there might be other needs. I mean, even as simple as, you know,
00:25:55
Speaker
ah Robert is somebody's legal name, but they want to be called Bob, right? So just having those two first name fields allows for respectful interactions in the name that people, somebody goes by on a day-to-day basis.
00:26:10
Speaker
It's as simple as that, right? But it takes a minute. It might take a little bit for people to get ah adjusted to, which I realized, but but it's yeah it's one of those things that gets better over time.
Role Models & Personal Growth
00:26:21
Speaker
Now, I'm wondering if you have any role models. I know you were saying that you saw an absence of role models or people representation ah in the media of folks who are you know trans and Chinese or Asian.
00:26:35
Speaker
But I wonder now, maybe there's, things are changing, things are opening up, if there are now any role models, whether in the past or present, ah that you draw from, inspiration or at least being able to see parts of your story.
00:26:52
Speaker
Yeah, of course. I think like even in the earlier years when I was coming out, even though there weren't a lot of representation to people that i really kind of looked up to because I saw their YouTube videos, especially like their, this is, my name is this, this is my voice, X months on T. Right. Oh my gosh, the classics. Yeah, the classics.
00:27:12
Speaker
Was Chella Man, who is like, they're also Chinese. And then they happen to be like a disability activist, mental health activist, and is also a transgender man. So I thought that, you know, they're very inspirational because they're very out with their story and also with like disability advocacy as well.
00:27:28
Speaker
And then there was also Skylar Baylor and he swam for Harvard, actually, on the men's swimming team, which I think was... one of if not the first transgender d1 athlete i might be wrong on that but i remember like seeing him as one one of the firsts for something and especially for like an ivy league school which throughout my high school years i was really aiming for i thought that that was so inspirational because not only was he out he was also like swimming like he was playing a sport which i guess especially now in like american politics is
00:28:00
Speaker
a very hot button issue. And it definitely has been for the past few years. um It was really nice to see that because I was like, he was very outspoken. he was like on, you know, post a lot on Instagram, on YouTube as well, talking about not only his own experience, but also like how he feels people should advocate for trans rights and it's always very open and visible about that so i really like that i think especially seeing it as a young person too like like seeing someone who's trans it also asian was a very big deal for me so just having like a couple of those people there even to just like watch youtube transitioning videos of them that was really nice yeah
00:28:37
Speaker
It's so true. I can very much relate to that, you know, early days where you're like, of course, you have this inner a sense and then just feels very big. But to have somebody who's maybe a little bit further along or even not that much further along to be able to speak out loud some of the things that are happening and some of the unique aspects, I'm sure, for you, too, where somebody is able to speak to the things that maybe yeah like I haven't even even been able to voice um and put together.
00:29:07
Speaker
but they're spelling it out. And then living their lives too, right? It's maybe even as banal as just like, wow, they exist. Just being a person, honestly, just like casually like you know doing regular person things, but just happening to like have a shared identity. I think that was a big deal. yeah Yeah, absolutely. And doing great things because I i connect with your um what you're unpacking in terms of being able to succeed, right?
00:29:33
Speaker
Just because one is trans doesn't preclude one from success. Mind you, there could be struggles along the way and perhaps even failures. um as you mentioned, because you're human, um but that there still can be people that are striving for excellence out there. And so i don't know what your journey of excellence entails. I'm certainly certainly studying is, I'm sure, a big part of it right now.
00:29:59
Speaker
ah But yeah, just if you want to speak to to excellence or success and what that means to you. Yeah, of course. I feel like once I came to college, I have like definitely slowed my pace a lot just to like relax a little bit because i did spend, I feel a lot of my high school years chasing success and trying to like get a lot of achievements, trying to do the best I could get awards for whatever I was like trying to compete in, which in high school was a lot of like public speaking debate, um also like a little bit of sport. So it's those things that I felt like that maybe drove me to like, you know, be as successful as possible. But also I think a part of my identity was woven into that as well, because I felt like I needed to overcompensate for everything because I was trans. And I guess a part of it also came down to like,
00:30:48
Speaker
the media perception of affirmative action at the time and also dei which i know is another so many like there's so many hotline issues that just happen to like affect like but yeah it was one of those things where i felt like i didn't want people to think that i was succeeding because like i there was a quota or that i'm there's more leniency towards me and my identity right and it was one of those things that i had to overcome even when i got into pen because i felt like like I was scared that people were going to think I got in because I'm some like diversity hire. I know it's like one of those things that isn't necessarily true, but it's one of those fears at the back of my mind. right so I felt like throughout high school, I was just doing my best to feel like I can be credible in speaking and doing whatever I am doing because
00:31:35
Speaker
I felt like only if I was successful, then people could see that, you know, I was good at what I was doing. Even if like for a regular cis person, you you don't have that mindset of having to overcompensate and continue like achieving so much to feel like you're good at something. Yeah.
00:31:50
Speaker
Yeah. and just um kind of working twice as hard to be accepted as kind of who one is. um Yeah. Yeah, that is a ah big struggle.
00:32:02
Speaker
And, but then also good to hear that you're able to kind of be like, okay, I'm in now I can just go steady at this because you're right. that The pursuit of success can be all consuming in ways that, right.
00:32:16
Speaker
ah you know, there's a lot to life, right? um And so much to enjoy, especially I'm sure in a new city and and a new environment and whatnot. So yeah, it makes sense.
00:32:29
Speaker
It's nice having this change of pace as well, I think, because like it's, I don't know, it's so weird, just like shifting gears all of a sudden. But I feel like now, instead of like just chasing after achievement, I'm more so just like, you know, doing what I really enjoy and like finding those passions and like being able to take it all in instead of trying to have an end to something. Mm-hmm.
00:32:49
Speaker
Yeah, that that does allow you to, i imagine, be more present to really yeah great stuff that's happening. um And also, i find, too, when you're able to resonate with what you're really passionate with, then it kind of the rest takes care of itself. I mean, that sounds very woo-woo.
00:33:09
Speaker
But it is very true, i've I've found, in at least what I've pursued too, usually comes to bear and it kind of it takes me on a journey.
00:33:20
Speaker
um Sometimes a very surprising one at that. But without kind of a specific outcome in mind, ah things can unfold as they they wish. So yeah, that's a really cool disposition. It is a shift, and a good one at that.
00:33:37
Speaker
yeah. Definitely, definitely a good one. Yeah.
Cultural Misunderstandings & Media Influence
00:33:41
Speaker
um I'm wondering too, if you could speak to kind of cultural misunderstandings that you've encountered.
00:33:49
Speaker
i know if you've so spoken of about a few of them, but if you have any others that you want to specify where, you know, they're especially discussing gender identity and, you know, there's a lot of gender expectations.
00:34:01
Speaker
And then how that fits within the Chinese community, but even outside of of the Chinese community interacting with, say, the 2SLGBTQI community. Yeah, if you want to speak to any of that.
00:34:14
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. I feel like especially within like the Chinese community and at least my family, because a lot of community members are pretty under-resourced and don't know a lot about 2SLGBTQ identity, but they assume that perhaps trans people like art and gender identity is very much interwoven with sexuality, which...
00:34:38
Speaker
you know oftentimes it may not be so I think it was one of those moments as well with my parents where they were misconstrued that people who are trans transition because they're gay which I think was like a pretty interesting thought to have as well considering how there's like you know there are intersections between gender and sexuality but how they perceived like gender expression as like a prerequisite to queerness or like expressing your sexuality so they thought that it's because I also happen to like girls that I wanted to transition to be a man, which at face value, I was like, what?
00:35:12
Speaker
Right. It's one of those things where it's like, oh, that's not. But like, I think after really reflecting on it also like, you know, taking like gender theory class in college and like understanding more about a lot of things.
00:35:25
Speaker
in regards to intersectionality, I can kind of see where they're coming from, right? Especially if a lot of the media that they're exposed to, and I guess a lot of Asian people who are might be in the older generations are exposed to, it's usually very limited to certain areas of queer identity. I think they see a lot of like gay characters in film, for example, or like trans women represented in screen, which is also the reason why my parents were confused because they thought if you're trans, you have to be like transitioning from biologically or like male to female um but i think it's just that like seeing that on media and assuming that there's only ah couple aspects of identity that exists and that you can fit into the boxes of i think that was probably one of the biggest like i guess cultural misunderstanding of gender when it comes to my own community
00:36:15
Speaker
Wow. Yeah. And then just ah being there with them to unpack that, ah to make those distinctions, which for many can feel fairly academic, right? Where it's like, okay, what this, and then this, and it's different from that. And Especially for many, it's kind of all folded in together. And so just to untangle it a bit, to show the different slices.
00:36:39
Speaker
um And to be fair, too, we've had the LGBTQ community kind of operating together, for better or for worse. and Yeah, for sure. So the public just looks at the whole community as like, they're doing the same thing or having the same experiences. Right.
00:36:56
Speaker
you know, there is a distinction there that is is important to to kind of untangle. And also interesting to hear how media plays a role in that misunderstanding um where people can, you know, just have one view to particular identities, particular, I would say, especially trans women, where Those are kind of overrepresented, ah usually very negatively, sadly, in media, even today, i would say.
00:37:26
Speaker
um Hopefully that can get better. And so then, not only is it hard for trans masculine people to see themselves, But it's also hard for families to understand where it's like, that's a thing? question mark Yeah, yeah. And it was like surprising to me too because my parents and like most people in China know of this really famous talk show host who's a trans woman. And like her name is, I think it's Jingxing. And she's like very like famous. She's acted in shows. She has her own talk show.
00:37:59
Speaker
And she's a trans woman. And people accept that. And they like you know Chinese people accept that as a part of culturally as a part of like someone that's very important. So I thought that was surprising because like if people accept a trans woman you know into culture, into media, then why not like other areas of queer identity, right? like Why is it so hard to understand, I guess, the flip side of it for me, for example, as a trans guy?
00:38:26
Speaker
So I think that was one of those things that I did think a little bit more about when it came to like coming out to my parents and like having conversations with them You know, in the years afterwards as well about my identity, because it is interesting to think about how there is ah represent there might be representation of transgender identity, even if it's like in widely accepted media. But it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone will be able to like be accepted.
00:38:52
Speaker
Wow, that's really interesting. And I'm glad to hear that's happening. And of course, it shows that we and there's a need to go further, right? And maybe you need to have your own talk show.
00:39:05
Speaker
That'd be funny. Of course, you don't have to do all the representation work. You've done your heavy lifting. Yeah. yeah But this does present to me a really interesting question, especially since just a few times we've mentioned, kind of alluded to this kind of big elephant in the room of what's happening in the United States, but also in pockets of Canada.
00:39:25
Speaker
You know, things are getting tough and, you know, really alarming changes are happening, especially south of the border, not south of the border for you, it's you're in it.
00:39:37
Speaker
um It can be scary being here right now. I can imagine. And I'm just curious, like, how's that going for you? i mean, to the degree you want to talk about it and you don't have to, if you don't want to, um yeah you know, i just appreciate that is a heavy burden to witness and to be a part of.
00:39:56
Speaker
For sure. i think like, I didn't really take it all in right at the end of like me and my friends election watch party, i think it really came like once Trump really came into office where a lot of the executive orders, for example, especially those targeting trans women and trans people came into light.
00:40:16
Speaker
It was one of those moments where I kind of, you know, would go on the White House website and find that bill exactly there that made me realize how terrible all this is going to be. And of course, like everything that's currently ongoing in terms of you know, taking away access to gender-affirming care for minors, all of the bathroom bans, and all those things are are more impactful to, like, southern states and more republican states, however. So I'm really glad that although PA, a like Pennsylvania, did swing right this election, ah Philadelphia and of itself is a pretty liberal space.
00:40:48
Speaker
So I feel like I'm in this protected bubble where I don't really see the effects of a lot of these, like, a lot of this legislation that is, you know, going out right now, and of course, are being contested in court, but are still, you know, very prevalent in the States right now. So it's, it's weird kind of being here in Philly, while like, I see the news every day, where I see like trans friends other states talking about, you know, perhaps bans and blockages to a lot of civil rights and liberties that they have.
00:41:15
Speaker
So it can be really scary, though, considering things like travel bans, for example, I know that Recently, um I think there was like, I forgot what it was called. I think it was a memo that was drafted about trans people entering the States.
00:41:31
Speaker
It was targeted to trans athletes. So the state, like the US, the Trump administration doesn't want trans women especially to... come into the States and participate in sports competitions.
00:41:42
Speaker
However, the memo is very broad in its language. So there's some fears um from like political scientists and activists and theorists that this could be more broad in effect.
00:41:53
Speaker
So like you would get questioned at the border, for example, which I think that part for me is the scariest. Just thinking about like, you know, I mean, I don't think, hopefully, this will not happen. and I don't think it necessarily will indefinitely take place, at least right now.
00:42:11
Speaker
But, like, potentially seeing, like, a travel ban just because perhaps the border officers are confused as to why my passport photo and You know, sex markers the way that it is once I like pass better.
00:42:23
Speaker
It's just one of those things that I do have in the back of my mind when considering traveling and staying in the US, especially as a student on a visa. So I think it's one of those things that definitely affect, you know, everyone, regardless of what state they're in right now Yeah.
00:42:37
Speaker
So there's like a real tangible aspect for you. And then also witnessing, you know, what's happening in the country, um even if you're in a particular area, Philadelphia, I spent some time there as well. ah I went to university at Bryn Mawr College, so I'm sure you're familiar with
00:42:59
Speaker
add another layer to the whole dynamic. Whenever I tell people who know what Primar is, which are an all women's college, they're like, oh, I didn't realize it went co-ed. And I was like, yeah not really but how much do I want to get into it?
00:43:15
Speaker
Sure, co-ed. um But all that to say, yes, I mean, I appreciate the kind of all the different layers that, you know, you're just kind of always trying to think about it. And it is in the back of the mind or even in the front of the mind of like how to, you know, what to do about it. If there's, you know, you have to spring into action to um address anything that may come up. It's just a huge degree of uncertainty.
00:43:40
Speaker
So just um ah constantly, ah Looking at the status of things and also appreciating that sometimes people in Canada can be inspired what's happening in the US and making sure, you know, what's coming across the border is also addressed.
00:43:58
Speaker
Mm hmm. But it just it is a very frightening time. ah And I'm a dual citizen, so U.S.-Canadian. And so very much you know calling and writing letters and responding to things that are coming up so that people are aware this is not the direction ah that is helpful, not just for trans folks, but for for all of society.
00:44:22
Speaker
So it's ah it's a big moment.
Bridging Understanding & Future Hopes
00:44:24
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that does get me thinking about, know, talking to folks and the unique position that you have, or even myself, I come from a fairly conservative family, know, I you know,
00:44:42
Speaker
think about the the skills that we've developed, ah whether we wanted to or not. yeah And I don't know if you've thought about that. Like you, um in some sense are a go between, between new ways or different ways of understanding and um you know your cultural context and ah your family and and whether that's now applicable to talking to other folks who, you know, they may have hesitations, um they're confused, they don't understand.
00:45:16
Speaker
i don't know if you've thought about that or if you've even found yourselves in situations where you're leveraging that skill set from your situation and applying it in different ones.
00:45:28
Speaker
No, I feel like I'm pretty grateful that I'm kind of like a ah piece of representation or like, you know, the bridge between my family and family. you know, their conservative cultural values and these like progressive ideas that I hold because, you know, they impact people like us.
00:45:46
Speaker
um i think there definitely have been instances where I felt like I felt that gratefulness to be able to talk to people because I think especially once I passed more and i surrounded myself with more male friends, it was one of those things where i feel like them knowing me as a trans guy, like allow them to see trans people as just like regular folks. Cause really that's kind of what I was, even if we don't really focus on these conversations and like kind of address the elephant in the room in of itself, like they have that understanding that I'm trans and all my friends do.
00:46:19
Speaker
So I think it's nice that people at least have one trans person in their lives to, you know, recognize as like a peer, even if we don't always like address very like heavy and political conversations.
00:46:32
Speaker
I think that's valuable. And know it was, I do appreciate how I became like more open as a result of coming from my pretty conservative family, because I feel like more open-minded to take in perspectives and to you know, raise my voice if there's a time and a place for that.
00:46:49
Speaker
For sure. Yeah. And I think that's wonderful too, that, you know, just going about your everyday life and connecting with folks in your life allows them a view to, one, there can be unique challenges, right? The fact that you're having to listen to all this news and figure out what's happening, but that there is, that there's nothing really, i mean, for some people being trans is strange, right?
00:47:14
Speaker
But once you get a front row seat to what it actually is, it's like, Oh, yeah. just He's just a guy. He's just there. like Actually, maybe even boring. I'll speak for myself. I'm boring. um you know Once people see that, and um because he it it counters the perhaps stereotype that's in their head.
00:47:34
Speaker
um And then they get to finally see what it actually is about and um just be with that person. There's a lot of power in that. And it's it's really wonderful to see that. Yeah.
00:47:46
Speaker
I think especially like because there's so much negative visibility now, right? Like people see only the most extreme sides of, I mean, every community, but especially when it comes to like the current, you know, attacks on trans people and media um that are very mainstream, people usually see like a very extreme side of the trans community or like they see it in a very heavily negative light that makes them scared or not wanting to approach trans people, even if they don't realize that they, you know, know trans people people in their own lives.
00:48:16
Speaker
Yeah, that's so true. It's interesting. ah For me, it's, ah you know with having ah fairly conservative family, there's certain things that I've already heard that when spoken by other folks, they don't jar me that much.
00:48:34
Speaker
It's not to say that they they're not great, right? Like I'm not condoning what people are saying, but more that it doesn't fluster me to where I can be present with that person.
00:48:45
Speaker
uh and you know to depending on my energy level that day i may continue to to stay in dialogue with somebody um but that's you know this is it's not something i wish upon myself because you know some of the things are are not that great but there is a ah power in being able to just be present with wherever somebody is at and not get um disjointed by it to be able to help them ah possibly maybe maybe not with going further so it's it's interesting all
00:49:19
Speaker
bill indeed indeed well i have one more question just to close out our fantastic episode so far uh um and it's just really thinking about the future and if you have like have hopes and dreams for, you know, future generations of of trans individuals who are who are Chinese or Asian more broadly, and what you kind of would love for yourself and for them.
00:49:48
Speaker
Yeah, I think that mostly comes down to two things. And the first is like being able to feel more comfortable talking with family. Because I feel like the loss of community is definitely a very big fear that queer Asian friends of mine also have, where it is obviously very difficult for everyone, but especially when there's so many like Confucius traditional values, it becomes difficult to, you know, directly, as I mentioned before, like cut yourself off from community that means so much to you.
00:50:17
Speaker
So I hope that in the future, like, Trans Asian folks can feel more comfortable connecting with their family members, even if there are still going to be ah conflicting perspectives and views when it comes to identity.
00:50:30
Speaker
I think that's probably like my biggest hope for the future, although probably like a very long term. long-term hope for future future generations. I think the second thing is like, I really hope that there becomes more positive visibility.
00:50:45
Speaker
I know that like right now, of course, there's a lot of negative sentiment, especially in media. um And especially that also means that, you know, like less visible minorities, like trans Chinese people obviously do not get as much like representation wherever.
00:51:00
Speaker
So I hope that there is going to be more representation for like, other intersecting minorities, for queer BIPOC people in media, for like more trans and non-binary Asian people to be able to like be in mainstream, you know, be like Chela Man and act in films or be like Jingxing in China and like literally have her own talk show, right? It's those really big things or even something small, like being in a YouTube video or recording like your transition process.
00:51:27
Speaker
Just having that visibility, I think, is something that I hope to see more of in the future, especially because I think it's one of those things that compels queer youth to really see themselves and also feel more comfortable in being who they are. So I think those are my...
00:51:41
Speaker
my two cents. I love that so much. And of course, I'm also really grateful for your visibility. As I mentioned, it's it's a big decision. And course, I'm sure much went into it.
00:51:54
Speaker
ah But it it means a lot and is really important. And I'm sure, you know, even if you don't hear all the stories, you've impacted so many people ah to help them, you know, with their own families. so ah Hats off to you and thank you so much for coming on this episode ah to celebrate Asian Heritage Month
Episode Conclusion
00:52:14
Speaker
and beyond. Of course, not just one month, but the whole year.
00:52:17
Speaker
And, and ah you know, of course, I wish you all the best as you continue your studies at UPenn. And I'll be definitely, you know, monitoring and thinking among others about what's happening down in the US and we'll do all that we can yeah to make sure things are good, not just for you, but of course, for for all other trans and non-binary folks who find themselves in the US.
00:52:41
Speaker
So thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it was really good to chat and we'll close it from here. So bye for now.