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Pee. Panic. Repeat. What Trans People Face in Public Washrooms
11 Plays5 days ago
In this episode, El and Kai step into the everyday world of washrooms and changing rooms - those ordinary spaces that, for many trans and non-binary people, are anything but simple. These are places where something as basic as peeing can come with an undercurrent of discomfort, scrutiny or even violence.
They talk about what it means to be seen (or questioned) in these spaces, and how the unspoken access rules - based purely on how someone looks - end up failing all of us, not just trans folks. Through unpacking what safety with all of us in mind really means, they explore how we might start to imagine washrooms that offer dignity, not dread.
If you’ve ever felt unsure, awkward or just curious about why washrooms matter so much in conversations about trans inclusion, this one’s for you.
Download our FREE resource - "Rethinking Safety in Washrooms" here: https://www.transfocus.ca/freeresourcedownload
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Transcript
Introduction and Guest Introduction
00:00:02
Speaker
This is Gender in Focus. I'm Elle, and each week I sit down with the president of Trans Focus Consulting and all-round gender diversity genius, Kly Scott. I get to ask all the questions you've ever wanted to ask about how to make the workplace and the world a better place for trans and non-binary people.
00:00:20
Speaker
Let's get into it.
Social Dynamics in Washrooms
00:00:23
Speaker
In today's episode, we are exploring the wonderful world of washrooms again. In a previous episode, we've looked closely at the design of these spaces with Marnie Robinson from HCMA.
00:00:35
Speaker
We'll add a link to the show notes in case you want to check that out.
Challenges for Trans and Non-Binary Individuals
00:00:39
Speaker
But in today's episode, we're taking a closer look at the social dynamics in washrooms and change rooms. There's a lot going on in these spaces, especially men's and women's facilities with lots of strong opinions of who should belong, where, and what we should do.
00:00:54
Speaker
We unpack these issues in a thoughtful and practical way to hopefully provide greater insights and ideas for how we can be with each other in an inclusive and a safe way.
Societal Expectations and Comfort in Washrooms
00:01:05
Speaker
And I'm really excited to talk about this very important topic. it's very timely ah with my co-potter, Elle. How's it going? Good. How are you doing? I'm doing great. Yeah.
00:01:18
Speaker
This is a topic that we see everywhere at the moment. And there was a lot of interest in Marnie's episode, so ah unsurprisingly. So I'm pretty interested to see how this is going to go. um It's pretty timely. As you said, there's a lot of stuff in the news right now about washroom access.
00:01:34
Speaker
So I wanted to ask, first of all, what generally what issues trans and non-binary people face when it comes
Health Impacts of Avoiding Washrooms
00:01:41
Speaker
to washrooms? Yeah, that certainly within washroom and change room spaces, there's all variety of challenges, right? In terms of being able to access the washroom, depending on how the trans or non-binary person looks and whether they kind of align with how society expects they look for their gender, they can have more or less
Non-Binary Exclusion in Binary Washrooms
00:02:07
Speaker
challenges. And this is very similar to people who are not trans. So this is not exclusive to trans folks, but certainly more often than not, trans and non-binary folks do face challenges.
00:02:18
Speaker
ah It depends on where they're going and what's happening. But certainly men's and women's spaces in particular, whether washrooms or change rooms, we do find quite a lot of trans and non-binary folks face challenges.
Solutions for Inclusive Washroom Access
00:02:30
Speaker
So much so that they tend to avoid those spaces just because it's so hard. So what happens is you know somebody goes into a washroom intending to go to the toilet. um And people can face any number of things from kind of pretty subtle, you know maybe stairs, um ah occasionally a little bit more kind of in the middle of the spectrum of like comments. ah Sometimes people do that double take that somebody comes into the washroom and then people are like, did I come into the right place? And they'll look at the signage.
00:03:02
Speaker
People will say things, they'll ask questions. um The men's room is somewhere else, right? um As a way to indicate in their mind that person is not in the right place.
Cultural Differences in Washroom Norms
00:03:13
Speaker
um And it can get as bad as, even if it's not as common, ah harassment, people telling, and yelling, being rude, hostile.
00:03:26
Speaker
They can even involve staff calling on staff to intervene um and somebody that they think is in the wrong washroom ah and ah any number of other things. Like there's just so many stories out there now sadly, where people are encountering these challenges.
00:03:44
Speaker
But it all boils down to they just don't look how people expect them to, right? So if somebody is going, ah somebody looks a little bit more masculine, whether cisgender or transgender, into the women's washroom, there are now, you know, a lot of pushback ah to that access.
00:04:04
Speaker
It doesn't happen as much, but there are still eyebrows raised when a more feminine looking person goes into the men's washroom or change
Privacy Concerns in Change Rooms
00:04:12
Speaker
room. So that's just a bit of an overview of some of those challenges.
00:04:16
Speaker
You mentioned a little bit earlier then about how this is actually wider than just an issue for trans people. um Can you go into that a little bit? Because I think that that might surprise some people.
00:04:27
Speaker
Right. It's just not on people's radars. Most people or a lot of people look how we expect. for So a lot of women present in feminine ways and a lot of men look masculine.
00:04:40
Speaker
So their gender identity aligns or matches some way or aligns with their gender expression. um There's kind of two categories of things and in society we expect those to be aligned.
00:04:52
Speaker
have But for a lot of cisgender folks, as well as trans, although a little bit more disproportionately impacts trans and non-binary folks, their their gender does not align with their gender expression.
Focus on Behavior for Safety
00:05:06
Speaker
And so, you know, if we will give you an example, somebody accessing the women's facility, ah you know, maybe has a tie on, maybe is a bit taller, um you know, all these different features that we've kind of coded one way or another,
00:05:24
Speaker
are at play, you know, become in all kinds of shape, sizes, diversity of how we look. So, of course, there would be some that would be a bit more masculine looking.
00:05:35
Speaker
um This can be not just in what the clothing people wear, but it can also be the shape of their body as well, right? ah So maybe a little bit more flat chested. um And again, both cis and trans women ah could look in this way, right?
00:05:50
Speaker
um Facial hair is another one as well. And this is where there's perhaps an intersectional piece to the puzzle ah where, you know, women of color can have a bit more facial hair.
00:06:03
Speaker
And so it's not just trans women that have facial hair. There are also cisgender women that have facial hair in a way that is noticeable to others that they code in a particular way or identify them as, you know, men.
00:06:17
Speaker
ah And so it's just really tricky when you're only focused on somebody's appearance as a way to determine if somebody is, quote, in the right place, you might not be getting it correct 100% of the time.
Legal Support vs. Privacy Concerns
00:06:31
Speaker
And that presents unique challenges to those folks who who are perhaps at the margins of societal expectations. You have talked about the things that trans and non-binary people face when they don't fit certain standards and they go into washrooms.
00:06:47
Speaker
um And I would imagine that for a lot of people, that's a really heavy burden to to have to carry and to think about every day. What are the things that, what are the measures that trans people generally take?
00:06:59
Speaker
um I would imagine avoidance is ah is a pretty big one. Yes, so avoidance would be probably the top strategy. We know from a survey of 27,000 trans people in the United States, kind of a good proxy for what's happening in Canada. I think we have comparable data with TransPulse Canada of 3,000 trans folks in Canada.
00:07:23
Speaker
ah that have said similar things, but the the US data is 59% of folks avoid washrooms in a public setting. They wait until they get home, which is no small feat, right? If you're out and about and you have to go, that's really hard to be able to hold ah to when you get home. So that tells you just how dire it is that somebody is willing to have that level of discomfort to be able to get ah safe place to go relieve themselves.
Encouraging Cultural Change
00:07:50
Speaker
ah strategies and additional strategies to be able to avoid is that um about a third of trans and non-binary folks in this survey of 27,000 trans folks avoid drink and food.
00:08:03
Speaker
So like basically nothing going through their system during the day to be able to make it to home um to be able to relieve themselves. So ah there's a But of course, that avoidance doesn't isn't cost free. um There's not just the discomfort piece, but there's actually much higher levels of urinary tract infections among trans folks because they're holding and wanting to get home So there's just like so many layers to this, like there's no way to address this really in a way that isn't cost free. So you're kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't. um
00:08:41
Speaker
And it's an impossible place for a lot of trans and non-binary folks. And so that's why there's such a keen interest in, you know, single unit washrooms ah for any gender or all gender multi-stool washrooms where these social dynamics aren't at play.
00:08:59
Speaker
Pretty much just anyone can go, no questions asked, no side eye, no, no stares, comments, harassment, that kind of thing. So yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty great solution. then that' Right.
00:09:14
Speaker
Can I ask you about ah the sort of non-binary experience when it comes to only being faced with men's and women's washrooms and yeah what you've seen with Transfocus when it comes to that?
00:09:25
Speaker
Yeah, that's ah such an unfortunate situation. i think most people don't realize the impossible position that puts non-binary folks in. um a lot of folks don't know that you know non-binary people exist and they're neither men nor women or not exclusively.
00:09:44
Speaker
And so just saying, well, pick one of the two, right? um is not actually a solution. Like, yes, it's one way to address it um in the moment, but it's not a long-term solution. We shouldn't force people into places that don't align with their gender identity, ah particularly because of the social dynamics that I was talking about.
00:10:07
Speaker
It really does put ah non-binary folks in a precarious, or some of them at least, in a very precarious position of being, you know, stared, yelled at, you know, whatever list of things.
00:10:19
Speaker
um and it's yeah just not a place for them that's not where they would go certainly we don't want to force people in those instances uh to not use the facility if it you know if those are the only two available those one or the other needs to be provided um but it's not a it's not great uh for non-binary folks and so we we need to come up with other options. And of course, it's not just because of non-binary folks. There's whole host of different reasons why these types of facilities don't meet everybody's needs, right?
00:10:55
Speaker
And so that's where... you know, these kind of thinking beyond binary only is really key and often overlooked or and people just don't realize this is this is an issue. um They just think, oh, well, they'll just pick one of them and then we're fine. And it's like, no, no, no, this is not the way forward. And so ah to have people think beyond that Or even to be aware if you're staff in that organization to be aware of other options, maybe not in that building or on that floor, but perhaps another floor has another option, right? a single unit.
00:11:31
Speaker
So just being aware of what's around you, or maybe there's a nearby Starbucks, right? You know, just just that even little bit of extra effort ah can really help. non-binary folks who are in a total pickle in a bind um when there's men's and women's, which unfortunately is a lot of places in our society. We've only thought of men and women, boys and girls, and we have not thought of and non-binary folks. And so it's just this big missing gap.
00:12:00
Speaker
And of course, it shows up in other areas besides washrooms, ah But washrooms, because it's such a daily need, it's just is like such a reinforced reminder for non-binary folks that they don't belong.
00:12:13
Speaker
Like just not not counted or accounted for and and don't belong. And what a message to send somebody who is either an employee or a client or who you know, any number of relationships to the organization.
00:12:28
Speaker
um so it's it's a huge miss, one that sometimes people discount, right, for a variety of reasons. So, but I don't think that should be the case. One of the things I've noticed since moving to Canada is that that isn't such an issue in Europe, of well at least from my experience, not to speak for the whole of Europe, but ah it tends to be a bit more ah options when it comes to washrooms. that It's not as often split into men's and women's. And I think there is this kind of idea that it's like an impossible like task and it's just not doable and there is no solution. But there are other places that do this quite successfully.
00:13:03
Speaker
Absolutely. Which I find really interesting. Oh, yeah. i I grew up in Germany. And so, you know, part of me is learning and trying to understand the different types of needs.
00:13:15
Speaker
And I think it is important to account for them in a North American context. But for me personally, i grew up in a setting where, you know, there's a lot of shared space um in levels of undress, right? Like with everybody. Sure.
00:13:32
Speaker
Old, young, men, women, non-binary folks, like everybody's chilling, you know? And it's an NBD moment. It's a no big deal, right? um yeah I was even German lessons and I was talking to my my teacher and she was reminding me about the saunas. You are not allowed to wear clothing in the German sauna, right? So it's just like... Same in a lot of places. Yeah, yeah.
00:13:58
Speaker
Right? And so it's just like, it's part of the culture for it not to be, um like, yeah, there's many layers to it. ah ah In North America, particularly, bodies are heavily sexualized, right?
00:14:13
Speaker
In ways that they just aren't in Europe. Not to say that that doesn't happen. Of course it does. But um it's it's much more normalized for people to be in in certain settings, not everywhere, to be in levels of undress with each other.
00:14:28
Speaker
in a way that, and there's just an appreciation for different types of bodies too, right? Like it's just not, there's not one very narrow cookie cutter body that everybody's supposed to line up against. um And so there's space for body hair and there's space for, you know, different sizes and Um, it's just, you just wouldn't have as much commentary as a lot of trans and non-binary as well as some cisgender folk face in accessing facilities. People would just wouldn't bat an eye. It's like, yeah.
00:15:00
Speaker
But i mean, that's just a part of normal human diversity. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. On that note about, uh, soreness, I wanted to go to, um, changing rooms because,
00:15:13
Speaker
that That does bring another level, or another dynamic of it's not just as simple as going to the washroom room then leaving. Oh yeah. This is understandably one level up from washrooms. There's still quite a bit of sensitivity are you know related to washrooms, especially in a more North American context.
00:15:33
Speaker
When you go to change rooms, especially if there's kind of shared areas of either changing or showering where this becomes even more sensitive, right?
00:15:44
Speaker
Um, And I understand it. People want to be safe and comfortable in a change room setting. And, ah you know, ah it depends. Like, I will say there is a difference, typically, of course, not every place, but um between men's and women's facility on this count. So there tends to be a bit more privacy built into the women's side of things.
00:16:08
Speaker
ah So either private showers and or private change booths. so And I think that adds a level of comfort ah and ah to to the experience so people can kind of have their own space and and be with their own bodies, right?
00:16:24
Speaker
And not have to see other bodies and whatnot. Now, if it's an older facility, it tends to be a bit more everybody's out in the open doing their thing, right? um And in that case, um you know people can see different types of bodies.
00:16:39
Speaker
ae I will say for the most part, generally ah trans and non-binary self, myself included, tend to try to create privacy if there isn't privacy, right?
00:16:51
Speaker
So using a towel and you know face towards a corner, you know there's all these different strategies. Sometimes you can orient the the um the lockers so that they kind of cover ah those kinds of things.
00:17:04
Speaker
But you know that doesn't isn't always possible, may not always be the case, or some people it's just not their way of doing it, right? They're just gonna casually ah dress as they always do.
00:17:17
Speaker
And so some people will see people in undress that they the bodies that they didn't expect in those spaces. and that can create quite a bit of disruption ah where you know people become alarmed.
00:17:32
Speaker
I would say specifically within women's change rooms, this is a big issue. One that a lot of municipalities, especially in pools or fitness centers, they're really wrestling with um and trying to find a way through.
00:17:47
Speaker
And so, yeah, I can appreciate that you you know there's a lot there to sort out. am And certainly as trans and non-binary folks, this is pretty difficult. I think it's difficult for many people, including cis people. I mean, not everybody wants to undress with strangers, right?
00:18:08
Speaker
This is not like a hit, you know? ah And so that's where I think there's a lot more that can be done to help everybody in that space, right?
00:18:20
Speaker
ah To be able to access it, to be able to comfortably navigate and to be able to get to whatever they're doing, swim laps, bench press, whatever the case, fitness class. ah yoga, whatnot. So I think, you know, we can talk about those, but those are some of the the issues at play in change rooms and why it really kind of hits at a huge, or it comes to a head quite a bit.
00:18:45
Speaker
Can you talk about, you mentioned that there's the difference between men's and women's changing rooms. um You told me some stuff about it that truly horrified me. So can you can you go into that? Because that really affects everyone who enters that space rather than just trans people. That sounds horrendous. yeah.
00:19:05
Speaker
Yes. So there is that difference between you know men's and women's facility, as I was mentioning. And especially when it comes to men, men's facilities, although it does occasionally happen, although less for women's is the open concept shower, right? So you have, i don't know,
00:19:23
Speaker
three, four plus shower heads and everybody's in the thing together. I mean, it's like the cliche sports situation, right? And i'm I've seen read a bit of the history of why that is Some of it is related to like military history,
00:19:41
Speaker
ah But the concept that men just ought to be comfortable and um just to be with each other in that way, when it's actually not the case. We've done quite a bit of research and a lot of cisgender men do not like that setup. Like it's not.
00:19:57
Speaker
ah Understandably. Yeah. And, you know, that exposes folks to, you know, so cisgender men or boys as well ah to a level of harassment um and hazing in a sports context ah for anybody that looks even just an iota different from, quote, the standard, right?
00:20:18
Speaker
And, um you know, there's also sexual harassment as well, right? So it's just, it goes really deep and pretty dark, you know. you know, and certainly trans and non-binary folks face that as well, right? So myself as a trans man, navigating open concept is pretty terrifying, right? um And so, you know, there are all kinds of decisions that I make, you know, if I'm with a team, i may be more inclined to use that space, knowing I have people there in case things go off the rail, which they can and have, you know, for me.
00:20:54
Speaker
And so this is where there's a lot of complex decision making. Obviously, I'd love to just show up and be able to nat like waltz through and then carry on, right? um But that's just not always available.
00:21:08
Speaker
And so... and And I know others, we've done tons of research, especially in a recreation space where just that's just a no-go for trans, non-binary folks as well as trans men. It's just like, no, I won't even go there. um you know Maybe I'll come, I'll arrive changed and then just walk home and shower at home. right So you know people can make the decisions, but if it's not working for cis men and it's not working for trans men, why is this still the case, right?
00:21:40
Speaker
And so that's where it's like, okay, trans men might have the more pressing need, but there's like a a whole other cohort of cis men behind us being like, yeah, please make this change. Right.
00:21:54
Speaker
Just more privacy is just universal, not universal, but near universal request, whether no matter which gender, it's clearly people want to be able to have their own space.
00:22:07
Speaker
um And if we were able to change the culture, maybe that wouldn't be needed as much if we were able to kind of ratche take down a few of the notches of that those expectations, maybe it would be easier. But for now, I think, unfortunately, we're headed in a different direction and where privacy is is ah a greater need.
00:22:30
Speaker
That must be so heavy to carry you for a lot of people because it it seems like it's such a, like from the outside, it maybe seems like such a small thing, but that's like meaning that people won't use the facilities because they don't feel safe just getting changed. Yeah.
00:22:47
Speaker
And sometimes, you know, organizations will point to, well, we've got washrooms, right? So that's kind of like this quasi change space, um or can function as that. And sure, but, you know, it's, yeah it's a very small space for one. And two, if you think about, you know, people with disabilities, or you know just needing more space, maybe they have kids in tow. It's just like you add variables to it and suddenly it's not a not feasible.
00:23:15
Speaker
um It's not feasible for just pretty much anyone, ah but even more so for others. So I think you know if people just kind of thought it through a little bit more, they realize, oh, we need a kind of a structural change.
00:23:29
Speaker
Or as I was saying, a cultural change. um So we can change this culturally. We don't have to just or we may not even need a structural change if we're able to have a little bit more, you know, grace and capacity to just understand people come in all shapes and sizes. Mm-hmm.
00:23:48
Speaker
So, I mean, ah that's maybe a bit further of a stretch. Culture change is quite difficult, but yeah. It takes a long time. Yes. yes There are these situations where trans people are asked to be more modest than is expected or asked of of cisgender people in change rooms.
00:24:09
Speaker
This is coming out of a nervousness of not knowing how to address a particular situation among staff of that facility. And so they just kind of go to, let's you know do something with a trans person and then everything will be settled, right?
00:24:24
Speaker
So it's this kind of forced modesty that happens for trans folks. um And some trans people are very comfortable and they like their bodies and they're okay with them and not in the way that society is, but certainly they're okay. And we don't ever wanna hopefully mess with that, right? like I think anybody being proud of their body is like a triumph in our society, right? So like, let's keep it that way.
00:24:52
Speaker
nus I will say if there is like, I think every organization needs to make their own decisions, but there's a few options available, right?
00:25:04
Speaker
Either everybody is allowed to be and levels of undress in a shared space within a women's or men's facility Or nobody, right? So that's the second option. That's the one that most organizations don't even know is available to them.
00:25:21
Speaker
So if you are going to go for modesty, that's that's everyone, right? ah So you can have signs that say, we expect at at the very least, ah you know, um everybody has bought, like it covers their, their, their,
00:25:36
Speaker
genitals or you know whatever you want to call it, you know the nether regions. But you know that's the minimum attire in that space. And that's actually a way of creating privacy, even if the facilities are not up to speed for providing change booths or shower private shower spaces. So you can introduce that to say, hey,
00:25:56
Speaker
Everybody's got to do it. and And then that actually helps with some of the you know surprise ah that people experience when they see a trans person.
00:26:07
Speaker
But if you're only focused on the trans person, that's problematic. um So you want to like think it through. For some, it'll be everybody gets to be you know ah free to be in any form of undress, or maybe they decide minimum attire is a way to handle all of this.
00:26:27
Speaker
And i think more and more people are starting to shift to that minimum attire because it's just, there's so many factors. It's not just trans and non-binary issues where it's just a lot easier um to to navigate when you have everybody having some sort of minimum attire.
00:26:45
Speaker
So the big question on everybody's minds when it comes to this is safety. Mainly, it seems to be safety concerns for cisgender women and girls. Could you go into that a bit, and please?
00:26:58
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. Please help us understand this. No worries. And we've been at this for a few years. so we have a few insights.
00:27:08
Speaker
ah So safety, it's really important. And I will say everyone deserves safety, full stop. right If you show up to a facility, ah you should expect to be able to navigate it safely.
00:27:25
Speaker
um That means free of harassment, ah free of you know all kinds of inappropriate behavior. um I will acknowledge that, you know, people have had ah trauma in washrooms and change rooms, right?
00:27:41
Speaker
That goes on, we talked about the men's side, but it also the women's side, right? ah Non-binary folks as well, right? So it's just like, there is trauma in this space. And I think it's really important to honor that trauma that people could be responding from trauma, right? So having had that or in like confined spaces, maybe it's not specifically a washroom or a change room, but it it, you know, that that space reminds them of that, right? Kind of being trapped, right? So always want to start with that.
00:28:14
Speaker
And I will say that um some people express concern of like, how do we know who belongs where to be able to determine safety? And so this kind of focus on you know how somebody looks to be able to determine if they're in the right place or some sort of criteria, people want something to be like,
00:28:35
Speaker
We were kind of tagging people, belong, don't belong, you know, and whatnot. So I understand that desire for figuring out how to determine safety.
00:28:47
Speaker
But I wonder if it's not going to give people the answers they need, right? So just because somebody looks feminine and they're headed into the women's washroom tells you zero about whether they're going to be safe or not, right?
00:29:02
Speaker
Mm-hmm. it they may actually be harmful, you know. um i think sometimes we go too quickly to be like women and or feminine appearing people are going to be safe, right?
00:29:14
Speaker
um That's not actually what the data tells us. So, and that's surprising to us because we have a concept, right? of like 100% innocence. And that's just not the case.
00:29:26
Speaker
um And it's not to discount the harm that women and femme appearing folks have had, right? Of course, that has been real awful trauma.
00:29:37
Speaker
So it's just balancing all these different factors. And so that's where we've landed in a slightly different place about safety. Safety is at the core. How do we determine that? We're looking at behavior.
00:29:49
Speaker
So no matter who someone is, If they are acting in an inappropriate ways, that's not acceptable to the space, right? And we know what those are, or they've been written down in a policy by the org, right?
00:30:02
Speaker
Staring, lurking, taking photography, inappropriate touching. You know, we've got a list already. We have pretty clear concept. um Maybe it it warrants if you haven't written it down as an org to write it down.
00:30:14
Speaker
So it's really spelled out. um So there's no mystery and it's easier for staff to enforce, but that's the measure. And then it's really easy to report it, to be like, hey, I was in the change room and this person took a photo of me, like, boom, staff in there, right there. They know what to ah deal with.
00:30:34
Speaker
And then it's not about, oh, this ah there was somebody who looked like a man in the washroom, right? like What does that tell you about? ah And, you know, and then when you prompt a little bit further, more often than not, that person was just going into the stall.
00:30:53
Speaker
relieving themselves, coming out, maybe, hopefully, washing their hands, and then exiting, right? Like, that's an appropriate use of the washroom, right? So I think people get a bit stuck just knowing what the basis of safety is and recognizing that, you know, right now and certainly in the past, it was looks-based, but that um may not give us the full story.
00:31:18
Speaker
And what's a solid basis is behavior. Mm-hmm. It's such a like a simple reframe, but it's quite hard to grasp yeah ah but for a lot of people. yeah And we have a resource about this, the Rethinking Safety in Washrooms resource that I can link in the show notes. But that goes that goes into all of that, right? the The kind of levels that you've been talking about.
00:31:41
Speaker
Absolutely, yeah. And just helps with some of the reframe because it's maybe a bit of a jump to go just from looks because looks, hey, that's simple, right? It's super easy. It's really apparent. Okay, whoa, that person looks different.
00:31:56
Speaker
Immediately registers, right? And so feels like a really tangible, actionable item, right? This person looks not how I expected. And then off we go. Versus behavior, right?
00:32:08
Speaker
there's a bit more that you need to pay attention to. And maybe it's not ah readily apparent, right, for somebody. um i mean, in some instances it is, right? Like harassment is very clear, right?
00:32:20
Speaker
If somebody is coming at you very aggressively or whatnot. So... um And so that's really important. But I think that reframe is key because unfortunately what can some some of the dynamics, what can happen, especially in women's spaces, is that um the fear of safety can then produce additional harm.
00:32:41
Speaker
And it's unintended. I don't think many cis women intend to create harm, but they kind of just are so fully wrapped up in ah the fear of something going wrong that they can't see that nothing is going on.
00:32:56
Speaker
And then that person whoever they're upset at or you know talk to staff about, and then the staff talk to them, they're now in having to carry that fear that that person um put out rather than just taking a beat ah to see what's going on in this lens of behavior ah can avoid some of that dynamic.
00:33:20
Speaker
um And then that person doesn't then feel like, because it's not just one time that that happens to, they're getting that a lot, right? So just not contributing to that um dynamic.
00:33:32
Speaker
Yeah. What does the law say about this? Yes. So the law in Canada, also, I'm not a lawyer, but it's this non-legal... asked that very bluntly then, as if you would know all the details immediately.
00:33:46
Speaker
so Yes, yes. My legal training... no um and so But of course, I am a nerd, big time nerd. So i do read all the court cases because I'm very fascinated ah by the law and how it tries to clarify things. and ah But certainly, we've had a about a dozen court cases since the 1990s. Actually, I think 1980s.
00:34:11
Speaker
So we almost have 40 years of case law in Canada that have clarified that people, anyone, trans, cisgender, can use the facility that aligns with their gender identity.
00:34:23
Speaker
And that is so key because for trans people, there is a difference between their gender identity and what they were assigned at birth in terms of their sex. and What people thought they were, their gender was, but wasn't.
00:34:36
Speaker
And so the being able to access the facilities based on gender, an example for me, I'm a man, I'm going to the the men's washroom or the change room, right? that's where I belong and end of story.
00:34:48
Speaker
Perfect. If it was based on sex, which say Utah, Florida, Texas, there's I think almost 20 states now that have a washroom access based on sex at birth.
00:35:01
Speaker
So in those instances, although I wouldn't do it, I would, I mean, also, i want to note, I do have privilege in this case, right? ah Because I do look like how people expect men to look, right? Maybe when I'm wearing this like floral shirt that I've got today, maybe it's a little question mark. No.
00:35:23
Speaker
um But like you know I have short hair. um i have some facial hair. have a flat chest. I'm tall. I'm 5'10". That's kind of the at the men's average. So if I were to go into a washroom and say Utah, I don't think people would know that I am trans in a way that they would confront me or tell on me or call the police or whatever repercussions they take.
00:35:48
Speaker
ah This is primarily an issue that um people who don't look how society expects are facing. So I want to acknowledge that piece, ah that it can be easier for me to um you know use the washroom that aligns for me, even when it the the law is against it, in ways that I will likely not get in trouble for.
00:36:12
Speaker
um Now, the states in the United States, let's say it's based on sex, they're actually not solving the problem at all. Because unfortunately, that just puts trans and non-binary folks in a tough position where some of them will actually go into, say, trans men will go into women's facilities, and trans women will go into men's facilities.
00:36:34
Speaker
now the women will still have you know people that they didn't expect going into their facilities. So it's just like, um and this guy's, there really are men coming into the women's facilities in that case. you know So it's just like, I don't think most people have thought it through um and to try to solve it on a practical basis ah in the ways that we're we're suggesting or or offering.
00:37:00
Speaker
ah But the law in Canada is very clear. it's It's settled. um And most people don't know about that. And they are quite surprised that we have determined it based on gender identity. and But it's helpful sometimes for them to be like, okay, I see that's how we've done it.
00:37:16
Speaker
um The sky hasn't fallen over the 40 years in Canada. Right. We're still here. have Maybe. i don't know. We'll see. talk we We trust in our leadership to to be able to defend our honor.
00:37:32
Speaker
um And so, yeah. So I think that's an encouraging note to see that this is possible ah in a way that honors trans and non-binary folk.
00:37:45
Speaker
Do you have any final thoughts on this before wrap up? Yeah, I mean, I think surprisingly washrooms and change rooms are this flashpoint that allows us to better understand human nature, our societal expectations, whether we're okay with those as a society, we get to make a choice. And certainly trans and non-binary folks are kind of at the tip of this um and and create that need for change.
00:38:15
Speaker
ah But of course, it's not just trans and non-binary folks. And i think this is a discussion um and usually an iterative discussion that needs to happen ah that has been needing to be happening for a while now.
00:38:31
Speaker
And for us to be able to envision how we can better be with each other, um you know, so we're inclusive, we're safe, we can have both of those. I think sometimes people think those are in tension somehow, and I don't think that's the case.
00:38:45
Speaker
We do need to adjust things culturally for that to be possible ah or create and or create other structures to help us be able to do that, increasinging including increasing privacy.
00:38:56
Speaker
But i do I hope to inspire people to really lean into the cultural. And that might mean moments of discomfort. And I don't think discomfort is a bad thing.
00:39:08
Speaker
Of course, safety is guaranteed. That should be everybody. But discomfort, there might even be it a bit like, this is new and your body registers that, right? Increased heart rate,
00:39:18
Speaker
you know you know ah you know something in the stomach like or legs want to run, you know whatever the feeling is. But to be to sit with it, even for a heartbeat, just to see what's on the other side of that. Because there might be some really interesting insights for folks. So,
00:39:35
Speaker
It's an invitation. It's not a requirement, but it's just um there's something there. And I think we'll, as we piece it together, hopefully am you know come up with something way more creative, way more innovative that will really help so many of us.
00:39:51
Speaker
I'm going to link the Rethinking Safety in Washrooms resource. Yes. um And we also have a program, an on-demand washroom program. Could you tell us about that, Rufuga? Yeah. Ah, yes. So, you know, a lot of these cultural issues, as I was saying, organizations are wrestling us, especially municipalities that provide recreational spaces.
00:40:10
Speaker
So this is a great place, you know, self-paced course to be able to go through all of that short little videos where I talk about all these issues, go into a little bit more detail onto each, and then give best practices for how to address them. ah There's, you know, all kinds of ah additional resources,
00:40:28
Speaker
uh you know checklists and um frequently asked questions and you know all kinds of content that you can essentially take and run and a tailor to your organization ah now that you know we have the on-demand also have the live version of it where we can do a strategy session but if you're just wanting to kind of absorb it in your own time and maybe there's a budget consideration the on-demand is the way to go it's really good and as all the good stuff that we do live ah at your fingertips. Amazing. Thank you so much. Bye.
00:41:02
Speaker
Yeah. Thank you. See you later.